Where will the next Chief come from?

[NUFC1892]

So, CDS will stay in post until 2011, effectively barring all of the current single Service Chiefs from the post, by default also barring the only other RAF 4*. To my knowledge there has never been a CDS that has not formerly been 1SL/CGS/CAS so it is feasible that the next CAS could also become the next CDS.

The more immediate question for the RAF is where will the next CAS and CinC come from? We only have 6 x 3*, of those only 4 are pilots (which I would suggest will remain the Branch of choice for the foreseeable) and of those 4 only 1 has more than 12 months seniority. Can we expect both CAS and the CinC to be extended to allow someone to "grow" into the role? Who of the current crop of 3* would best represent the needs and aspirations of the RAF and it's people?

[andyy]

Some time ago the RN was looking for its next 4* as 1SL - the 3*s were all put forward and none deemed suitable by the politicos. They bypassed the 3*s and promoted the best of the 2*s straight to 4*, step forward Admiral Essenhigh. It could happen again?!

[Pontius Navigator]

This looks like a classic for a pprune poll. The names are all in the public domain, even if not widely known.

Pool rules:

Run poll for one week. Top man eliminated as clearly too popular.

Run poll for second week. Eliminate anyone with 50% of the vote.

And so on.

Bottom man wins.:ok:

[BEagle]

Bottom man wins.

That'd be about right in this post-Pink Wednesday era of political correctness....:hmm:

[Chugalug2]

of those 4 only 1 has more than 12 months seniority.

For the sake of the future existence of the Royal Air Force I would seriously suggest a far more comprehensive head hunting project is called for than merely invoking "Buggins turn". The RAF needs a new Trenchard to arrest its decay and ensure its survival into its next century, never mind beyond that. He was ex Army. The only chiefs prepared to stand up and be counted are Army, now where might we look....?

[Blacksheep]

He was ex ArmyI say, steady on old chap, Pongo or not, he did invent the Royal Air Force.

...and the Brats to keep it flying.

[dallas]

I don't think HRH William got a go of being CAS during his 4-month visit to the RAF. He's a pilot*, has connections and is clearly far more talented than most of our lot who take years to do what he managed to do in weeks.

William for next CDS! (maybe with a week as CAS beforehand).

*terms and conditions apply.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Chugalug2. Like the First Sea Lord did last year?

We need £1bn to rule the waves, says First Sea Lord - Times Online (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article1398915.ece)
Dannatt is probably in a better position to speak out and survive because, so far, he's had a bigger butcher's bill.

It's also good to see that humour is still alive.

[Strictly Jungly]

Who really cares?

It will just be a stepping stone towards a nice little earner in civvy street, an autobiography (entitled "How I did nothing really for the my boys and girls in the Armed Forces") will follow where the individual will spout on how bad things were during his tenure (but where he failed to do anything about it!).

When they do speak out they are lambasted...don't even mention Harriet H, she is a joke in politics and makes me want to vomit whenever I see her on TV spouting the usual politico bolleaux.

No it wil be a promising senior officer who will toe the party line...........as usual...yawn.........:oh:

[Kiwiconehead]

C'mon - you're all thinking it...............

clicky (http://www.ohioclowncollege.com/)

[Chugalug2]

I say, steady on old chap, Pongo or not, he did invent the Royal Air Force.

...and the Brats to keep it flying.
True enough, Blacksheep. Did he not also state that it would be lucky if it survived to be 100, or words to that effect? Did he secretly know that the structure that he invented held the keys to its own destruction? Did he know something that we do not? So many questions, so little time!

[Cornerstone958]

So Jock gets an extension with the remit to combine the 3 services to form the 'BRITISH FORCES' before he departs to head up the new defence cell located in Spain sponsored by that well known Bank.
Uniforms will be Cerise with different a different coloured piping to denote which side of the room you live in.:ok:

[exscribbler]

Spot on, Kiwiconehead.

They even use such ringing phrases as vision driven organization and achieve synergistic teams. Just the thing for an aspirant CDS but let's have some subtitles, please!

Rufus D Dufus - or words to that effect.

[Chicken Leg]

I personally would like to see Dannatt get it, but then I would say that wouldn't I?

For the most part, he has the respect of Pongo's and is seen to put his neck on the line when something that we all think needs saying. He is rarely slagged off on here (what better endorsement is there?!) and is regarded within the Army ranks as a good egg who tries to do the right thing.

Probably why it won't be him then!

*There was an interesting piece in the Times about it a couple of weeks ago. The Journo that wrote it compared him to someone (can't remember who!!) who would bang is fist on the table when Churchill said something he disagreed with.

[minigundiplomat]

How about Torps?

In the spirit of jointery, we shouldn't keep his inspirational leadership to ourselves.

:eek:

[Climebear]

Quote:
He was ex Army

I say, steady on old chap, Pongo or not, he did invent the Royal Air Force.

...and the Brats to keep it flying.

To be strictly correct he didn't invent the Service (a chap called Smutts has a greater claim to that); indeed, as Commander of the RFC in France, Trenchard argued against the formation of a seperate service. He did though ensure that the Service survived in the Post WW1 era.

Although a great man in many respects, he had a tendancy (like many other airmen of his era) to be doctrinally blinkered and tied to the primacy of strategic bombing (the bomber will always get through). This was partly as a result of his time in command of the Independant Force(IF) (of 'strategic' bombers) in France after he resigned from his first stint as CAS. Even though the IF had little proven operational effect. This focus was often at the expense of other elements of air power - in particular fighter development.

[Chugalug2]

Points taken Climebear, but at least he claimed paternity, and saw the offspring through its infancy. As to being...

doctrinally blinkered and tied to the primacy of strategic bombing (the bomber will always get through).... This focus was often at the expense of other elements of air power - in particular fighter development.

Enough of our bombers did get through in the ensuing nastiness to contribute greatly to final victory, though at awful cost to all concerned. Contrast that to being doctrinally blinkered to the primacy of fighters...at the expense of other elements of airpower- in particular AT and RW, as if!

[Blacksheep]

doctrinally blinkered to the primacy of fighters...What use are fighters?

Oh? For shooting down bombers. I taut so... :E

Does this mean the next CDS should be a fighter pilot?

[Pontius Navigator]

Does this mean the next CDS should be a fighter pilot?

Is that a loaded question intended to exclude Harrier pilots?:}

[izod tester]

Actually, General Sir David Henderson has a greater claim to paternity of the RFC than Trenchard. He learned to fly a year earlier and was influential in the steering committee formed to develop military (and naval) aviation in 1912. It was also Henderson who promoted Trenchard from Major to Lt Col and appointed him 2 ic of the Central Flying School. In Aug 1913, Henderson was appointed the first Director General of the Military Aeronautics Directorate which became the RFC.

How many brats wondered why the Gymnasium at Halton was called the Henderson Gymnasium?

[Tourist]

I vote Dannatt also, and I'm RN!

[Archimedes]

Sliding back into the history:

Trenchard has no claim to being the father of the RFC, that's most definitely Henderson. Henderson had written about the potential of aerial reconnaissance in 1907 when he was Director of Military Training, sat on the sub-cttee of the CID which led to the creation of the RFC and had been involved in the development of military aviation since 1909 when that committee had been set up. He was the first GOC RFC as well as being DGMA, a post he held until the creation of the RAF.

Trenchard always disclaimed the title of 'Father of the RAF' and argued that Henderson deserved it - not least because Henderson acted as Smut's chief advisor and wrote possibly the most influential memo that Smuts recieved during Smuts' inquiry, in which he called for the creation of a separate air service.

[exscribbler]

Tourist: Me too!

The job needs someone with the cojones to stand up to this half-ar*ed place-holding self-serving administration - I could not bring myself to use the word "government".

[Climebear]

Points taken Climebear, but at least he claimed paternity, and saw the offspring through its infancy. As to being...

Quote:
doctrinally blinkered and tied to the primacy of strategic bombing (the bomber will always get through).... This focus was often at the expense of other elements of air power - in particular fighter development.

Enough of our bombers did get through in the ensuing nastiness to contribute greatly to final victory, though at awful cost to all concerned. Contrast that to being doctrinally blinkered to the primacy of fighters...at the expense of other elements of airpower- in particular AT and RW, as if!

Exactly the point I was making.

As for bombers getting through in the end (of WW2) the point was the aspiration of their Airships in the inter-war period greatly outweighed the actual capability. It took several years of expensive (in terms of very brave aircrew) experimentation before air power could get close to some of its prewar proficies for stratigic bombing - even then the actual effect is the subject of significant debate (apart from the fact that air was the only was the UK took the offensive against the axis powers in the first 3 years of the war).

The point about this, and the wider point about becoming fixated on one element of air power at the expense of others, is very well explore in Tami Davis Biddle's excellent book: Rhetoric and Reality in Air Warfare: The Evolution of British and American Ideas about Strategic Bombing, 1914-1945 (http://http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rhetoric-Reality-Air-Warfare-International/dp/0691120102/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1216249147&sr=1-1).

[Blacksheep]

How many brats wondered why the Gymnasium at Halton was called the Henderson Gymnasium?Go on then izod, tell us who Groves was... ;)

[FJJP]

If you're looking for nominations, David Walker has firm ideas about leadership and learning from history.

Yes, I know he's a Harrier mate, but he impresses nonetheless....

:ok:

[spheroid]

Why does it have to be a serviceman? Why not a Civil servant? and to be honest....who cares? What would happen if we abolished the post? CDS is purely a decorative and ceremonial post designed to give some crusty old git an extra couple of years before he reaches his pension.....How about we save the money and spend it on some new flying boots ?

[The Helpful Stacker]

Go on then izod, tell us who Groves was...

Air Commodore Robert Marsland Groves CB DSO AFC RAF (died 27 May 1920) was a Royal Navy officer involved with naval aviation during World War I. After transferring to the Royal Air Force in 1918, he served as Deputy Chief of the Air Staff and held high command in the Middle East. He was killed in a flying accident in 1920 whilst serving in Egypt.

[exscribbler]

From An Air of Authority - A History of RAF Organisation:

Groves gained his RAeC Certificate, No 969, on 15 November 1914 and he was an early advocate in the use of aeroplanes from ships rather than seaplanes, resulting in experiments at Rosyth aboard HMS Yarmouth. A leading wireless expert, he was one of the first officers allocated to the establishment of the new Air Ministry and as such he represented the embryo ministry at the early discussions where the plans for the merging of the two air services were drawn up. He was killed, together with Flying Officer Clarence Bird, in a flying accident whilst serving in Egypt, his family later presenting a sum of money to be used for providing memorial prizes for RAF personnel. These consisted of a Flying Prize to be awarded to the best all round pilot at the RAF College, each half year, a Navigation Prize for officers attending the course at Calshot, a Research Prize, to be awarded to personnel of any rank for the best work of a technological or scientific nature and four Essay Prizes.

Aircraft from ships, eh? Hmm... We could do with him back, then. Are the prizes still awarded, I wonder?

[Chugalug2]

OK, given that Trenchard neither fathered or invented the RAF I still stand by my proposition that the RAF is in desperate need of a second Trenchard to see it safely into its next century as the next CAS. That in turn is a response to the OP's question as to who from a very restricted list of candidates should fulfil that role. I am sure that we are all very appreciative of the historians' inputs, but the problem is urgent and immediate. The RAF, or at least its higher command, is bust and needs urgent fixing. Do we know a man who knows?

[Whenurhappy]

Spheroid - your tongue is firmly planted in your cheek, I hope! I (don't) look forward to the day that the wreaths layed at the Cenotaph are placed by CEO UKAF, who happens to serve on the boards of half-a-dozen other worthy bodies, is overweight and wears an off-the-peg suit and rubber soled shoes. Arguably we are the only Department of State where the CE is a specialist (Dept of Health is not run by a Doctor, the FCO not by a diplomat etc), but given our unique role in society, I wouldn't want it any other way!

[shack]

We might as well have all three--Who was Maitland?

[The Helpful Stacker]

Air Commodore Edward Maitland CMG DSO AFC DFM (US) FRGS

He served in all three services too. truly a purple chap.

[NUFC1892]

Okay guys, thanks for the history lesson :Dbut are there actually any LIVING candidates for the job?

By the way, the next CJO has been announced as being the current CDI, AM Peach (Navigator) -

[nigegilb]

If you really want to vote for Dannatt, you can!

Petition to: support the appointment of General Sir Richard Dannatt as the next Chief of the Defence Staff. (http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Gen-Dannatt-CDS/)

[Melchett01]

By the way, the next CJO has been announced as being the current CDI, AM Peach (Navigator)

Peach is undoubtedly one of the stars of the current firmament, a very capable operator who understands his stuff and doesn't take too many prisoners.

Do his dates as CJO co-incide with Stirrat's extension to 2011? Maybe there is a current candidate for next CDS - although I'm sure back-back light blue would cause a few harrumphs amongst the other services.

[Climebear]

Peach is undoubtedly one of the stars of the current firmament, a very capable operator who understands his stuff and doesn't take too many prisoners.

I didn't realise that he ever took any prisoners (not that that is a bad thing).

[PFMG]

I didn't realise that he ever took any prisoners


He has a German wife, does that count?

[SRENNAPS]

And I thought this thread was going to be about a real Chief :rolleyes::rolleyes:...........Salt of the earth, all of them.

[buoy15]

I heard it was some chap called Baldrick - proposed by a Capt Blackadder and seconded by a General Melchett
Apparently he makes good Cappuccino with extra cream
Should go down well in Main Building:ok:

[KPax]

Can the CJO be the next 'boss' he doesn't have 2 wings. How about the man who should be a 'WSOP' with his name being L***er.

[Wrathmonk]

Next CDS should be General Lamb (but won't be because he is not politically friendly). Suspect Dannet won't get the nod for the same reason. I'm guessing Gen Richards will be the next supremo. But a question - do you have to have been a single service chief to be considered for CDS?

Next CAS should be Stu Peach (but won't be because he's a navigator - nore likely to be VCDS next). My money is on Steve Dalton as the next CAS ....:\

[The Real Slim Shady]

Why not just put it out to tender in the private sector and have a Cheap of The Air Staff?????

[Chugalug2]

Next CAS should be Stu Peach (but won't be because he's a navigator

That is precisely the problem with the present system. The present incumbent is a pilot, by all accounts he is more than that - he is a pilot's pilot. What he isn't (well in my opinion, ha ha) is an effective CAS. Of the five transport squadrons I served on, two were commanded by navigators. Both were inspiring leaders, not all of the pilot ones were! Time to post this "tradition" into the bin. I agree that the CAS should be ex-aircrew, because he could be sending other aircrew into danger and needs to know what it involves. He doesn't have to be a pilot to do so. Me? Ex GD/P, so what?

[minigundiplomat]

All the best, truly inspirational bosses I've had have been pilots. Best 2IC evr was a Nav, commissioned WSOp's are conspicious by their absence.

[Dunhovrin]

How about the man who should be a 'WSOP' with his name being L***er.

Sorry? You've lost me. Why should he be a WSOP? Shurely ALM...

[Irish Tempest]

Personally, absolutely gutted when I heard that Gen DANNATT was not in the picture for the CDS role. I think on balance DANNATT is the most inspiration Snr Officer I have come across in my years in the service. No offence RAF but having a 'yes man' in the post for another few years is not something I relish…

He has the 'pulse' of the men which is such a rarity in this day and age. I, and no doubt over 50% of the Armed Forces would quite happily contribute to his leaving gift (which no doubt he would donate to a worthy cause). Such a simple thing as that and the publicity that would gain would most probably send a rocket up the MOD pen pusher hierarchy.

An alternate would be for us to find out if/when he was planning to resign and all rock up to MOD MB and give him a clap/well done you outside MOD MB...

Nothing illegal here, just thanking a well meaning officer for his gallant attempts to take on the politicos and fight for what he (and we all) believe is right.

It would be a first for the tri-Service org to do something like this and the message would be sent loud a clear to the men (and boys) on the top floor of the establishment.

You never know it could be a duty trip... maybe could coincide with a Pride march?

[Chugalug2]

Personally, absolutely gutted when I heard that Gen DANNATT was not in the picture for the CDS role.

Totally agree with you, Irish Tempest. Surely the answer though, with this PM and this government, is to sound off loud and clear to that effect They have shown themselves time after time to be pliable to say the least. So many U turns they are left confused themselves as to the present Party Line. An Aarse/PPRuNe campaign, not to say farewell to General Dannatt, but to see him relieve ACM Stirrup and the sooner the better!

[OHP 15M]

Next CDS needs to be intelligent, dynamic and have the strength of character to stand up for his troops ... Roy Cropper gets my vote :ok:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/0a/Roycropper.jpg/201px-Roycropper.jpg

[Modern Elmo]

Trenchard argued against the formation of a seperate service.

He was right about that.

[Hubstrasse]

My nomination is Gordon Ramsey - No Prisoners(also) and he knows the language! or am i talking complete danglers (again!) Think about it......
Hell's Forces... and maybe some decent tucker.

[Archimedes]

Trenchard argued against the formation of a seperate service.

He was right about that.

He argued against creating a separate service during wartime, thinking that this would be an unnecessary distraction.

He later said that his subsequent experiences of hearing Army and RN officers pontificate on air power convinced him that forming a separate service was, in fact, absolutely the right thing to do...

[AliasBoris]

The country is very fortunate to have the best man for the job already in post and it is therefore sensible to extend his appointment until a suitable replacement can climb further up the promotion ladder, and thus be experienced and competent enough to take over at the very top by 2011.:)

[exscribbler]

Thank you, Sir Glenn. :E

[nunquamparatus]

I'd like to propose my Warrant Officer Missileman (1st Class). 3,000 years service, 15 years undiscovered crime, more medals than you can shake a stick at AND, more importantly, the ability to smell out bullsh*t at 50 paces and say "f*ck off, Sir, thats a silly idea" without sounding insubordinate. Not sure he knows how to be a sycophant and he truly believes that HM Queen is the head of the Armed Forces. What he'd do to the legions of oxygen-thieving civil servants on the 6th floor I have no idea but I'm sure it would be fun to watch.

Isn't ironic that as soon as we see these senior officers get promoted to Air Rank/Major General/R Adm we start to see their colours changing. Whilst I have sympathy with their plight (long hours, dealing with pond-life) I do wish some of them would remember that politicians come and go and that reputations live forever. Frankly, with the way the TLBs are under attack let's contract out CDS to Accentura/EDS/IBM and let their lawyers tear the Treasury Solicitor into small pieces the way their lawyers manage to find loop-holes with Defence Procurement (Smart Procurement, remember):E

[exscribbler]

That's an even better idea!

Mind you, a WO from any of the Services would do a bloody good bull**** and bolleaux removal job at all levels of the civil service and government. Watching the operation would indeed be a fruitful and entertaining pastime.

[Alpha Whiskey]

Personally I'm not convinced that an extension of CDS untl 2011 is in the best interests of the Armed Forces for all the good reasons we all have to shift jobs every 2 years. One could draw the obvious (and I'm sure incorrect) conclusion that His Gordyness has opted for a party-line towing, bad news/tough call filter of CDS that will see out his term as PM (election in 2010) without creating any of the political problems/iritations that a good man like Dannett would deliver. Also begs the question as to the role of the Service Chiefs and the selection process for the job, given none of them are considered suitable and all would have been approved as appointments by a Labour govt.

[Scribbly dee]

I'll logon to JPA and put it down as an employment preference........if I get any problems I can call the JPAC........is there a time limit on the application.....!!! If I don't get at least interview i'll consider my human rights have been abused....!! :ok:

[Zoom]

...hearing Army and RN officers pontificate on air power convinced him that forming a separate service was, in fact, absolutely the right thing to do...

The great man was right all along. :D

...senior officers get promoted to Air Rank/Major General/R Adm we start to see their colours changing.

That's because they get all misty-eyed when they see the light at the end of the tunnel, viz a seat in the House of Lords. :ugh:

[The Adjutant]

Chaps,
I would like to put myself forward for the job of CDS. I have been RAF for donkies year and now as a full time reservist certainly qualify as a "crusty old fart". My grandad was Army and dad was navy so I can claim knowledge of all 3 services. While I don't have "wings" I did qualify for an ATC Flying Scholarship 42 years ago, so I can always wear that badge if it is OK with you guys. I know personally the current Viscount Trenchard (grandson of "Boom" Trenchard) so as you see I have first class connections. I would be happy to leave all the decision making to the single service chiefs as long as I got to go to all the dinners and mix with Royalty and other VIP's. I can lay wreaths, tell people they have all done very well (Young Mr Grace style) and drink Pimms without falling down. Not only that but I am quite happy doing it on 4* FTRS wages (i.e much reduced X factor) and no HTD.
In return I promise to abolish all mess bills and bring back batting in officers messes. To pay for this I will reintroduce NCO aircrew and so save loads of money by disestablishing at least half the commissioned pilots and nav's in favour of Sgts.
Remember, vote for The Adjutant!! You know it makes sense.

[Union Jack]

Mind you, a WO from any of the Services would do a bloody good bull**** and bolleaux removal job at all levels of the civil service and government. Watching the operation would indeed be a fruitful and entertaining pastime.

Reminds me of a friend, now sadly gone, who took up a Naval Staff appointment and duly used the 6th Floor lift regularly at the same time as a very tall, erect, and immaculately smart bowler-hatted, Melton-overcoated, carnation-buttonholed, Brigade-tied, mustachioed gent, "Good morning, Sir! After you.", he would say only to receive the polite rejoinder "No, Sir - after you!" before they finally headed for the dizzy heiights of the 6th Floor and disappeared in different directions.

It all came to an abrupt end after a week or so when my friend's four star master told him "CDS has asked me to pass on the message that his Chief Clerk says that he would feel much more comfortable if you didn't call him 'Sir! "!:)

Jack

PS Said friend later made Flag Rank and a K so his politeness was perhaps not entirely in vain .....

[Old Ned]

A very thought-provoking thread this, but I believe the only name that counts is sadly missing. We need Lord Flasheart! Only His Lordship could manage this pox-ridden government.

After all, the "20 minuters" deserve someone who " treats his aeroplanes like his women, climbs into them twice a day and takes them to heaven and back." Woof woof!

If not "Flashy" then I suppose Edmund Blackadder may do..... but no, on second thoughts is just has to be General Sir Anthony Hogmanay Melchett. He is no dafter that Browne or Brown!

Pip pip ON

[NUFC1892]

So to answer my own question, AM Steve Dalton is to be the man.:D

No prizes for guessing who the next CinC Air will be then:ok:

[talk_shy_tall_knight]

My breath has never been so bated - insert winkey thumbs-up "i'm in the know" type bolleuax