Forces in Afghanistan 'for years'

[dallas]

BBC NEWS | UK | Forces in Afghanistan 'for years' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7503964.stm)


The UK's armed forces are set to remain in Afghanistan for "a few years", Air Chief Marshall Sir Jock Stirrup, the chief of defence staff, has said.
He told BBC One's Andrew Marr Show the key aim was to develop Afghan security forces, adding: "That is going well".
It comes as a suspected suicide attack in southern Afghanistan killed at least 17 civilians and four police officers.
Sir Jock also said he expected a reduction in the number of service personnel deployed in Iraq in 2009.
Sir Jock has recently said the armed forces is overstretched due to the strain of fighting two wars.
Reiterating this point, he told the BBC: "Sustaining two theatres at the level we are at the moment is a stretch on us."
He added: "We do need to get ourselves back down to a more sustainable operational tempo as soon as we can."
'Greatest stretch'
This, he said, has been and remains his "top priority".
And Sir Jock said the "greatest stretch" was felt in "key enablers", by which he meant engineers, signallers, helicopters and strategic transport.
He said there were important parts of the Iraqi mission to complete, such as training parts of the country's army.
Sir Jock said the armed forces were under-manned by about 5,000, although he said this shortage was less than it was 10 years ago.
And, during a wide-ranging interview, he touched on a number of topics, including concerns over the pay received by service personnel.
'Critical point'
Last month, Army chief General Sir Richard Dannatt called for pay rises above inflation for service personnel.
And it was recently claimed that some servicemen and women are not paid as much as traffic wardens.
Responding to this issue, Sir Jock said members of the armed forces were "fantastic" and no monetary value "could ever be enough for them".
He said that salaries are determined by an independent pay review body and then implemented by the government. "The critical issue for me is retaining the independence of that review body and for the government to implement its recommendations in full each year, as it has done in recent years," he said.


If anyone is wondering why Dannatt is out of favour and Stirrup got 2 more years as CDS, I think this dodge sums it up quite nicely:

Responding to this issue [of soldiers' pay], Sir Jock said members of the armed forces were "fantastic" and no monetary value "could ever be enough for them".

(So let's not bother huh?)

I can almost hear the panting and wagging tail.

[Biggus]

Sorry for the first reply to go straight off the Afghanistan point, but an issue was raised I feel strongly about.....

As I have said before on other threads I don't consider the AFPRB to be truely independent (you may feel differently)....

Look at Office of Manpower Economics (http://www.ome.uk.com/review.cfm?body=3)

On which it states quite clearly......

In reaching its recommendations, the Review Body is to have regard to the following considerations:

the need to recruit, retain and motivate suitably able and qualified people taking account of the particular circumstances of Service life;
Government policies for improving public services, including the requirement on the Ministry of Defence to meet the output targets for the delivery of departmental services;
the funds available to the Ministry of Defence as set out in the Government' s departmental expenditure limits; and
the Government' s inflation target

Look at the last 2 'considerations'. How can you have an 'independent' body which is told.....'come up with a figure, but this is all we can afford and you mustn't be above our inflation target.....'. If the board thought the Armed Forces deserved 20% (which I'm sure they don't) and the Government's inflation target is 2%...????

[minigundiplomat]

Sir Jock said the armed forces were under-manned by about 5,000, although he said this shortage was less than it was 10 years ago.


Yep, before Iaq/Afghanistan/Sierra Leonne/Kosovo/Fresco.

Coping with NI and Bosnia whilst undermanned was a little different to coping with 2 very bloody medium scale operations with a workforce that have been pretty constantly deployed for 10 years.

[cazatou]

Biggus

The same sort of conditions apply to the Police who are also prevented by law from taking "industrial action".

You will doubtless recall that the Fire & Rescue Services DO take "industrial action" (regularly during my years of service) in support of pay claims. Their duties then devolve onto the Armed Forces with Police support.

mgd

You are missing the important omission from his statement - which is that 10 years ago the Armed Forces had just completed 2 major redundancy schemes which "trimmed" the Armed Forces by more than the quoted deficit.

[VinRouge]

I suppose a "few" is brobably a good description of 15-20 years... :hmm:

[KeepItTidy]

Well all officers are the same , you learn over time to never trust them , when they open there mouths they direct the conversation elsewhere. The only reason the Military is the way it is right now is solely down to commissioned ranks and there failure to address real issues and hide them all under the carpet.

[NutLoose]

Don't worry, Brown has a cunning plan, He is pushing to admit Afganistan to the EU, that way they will all move to the UK and take up residence in free housing at our expense, they will then of course be issued with the New I.D cards so we can keep an eye on them all.. :8

See simple :ok:

[Fast but Safe]

It would be highly controversial of me to say something like :-

"Can Jock Stirrup tow the (government) party line any longer?"

[KeepItTidy]

The Old Fat One (http://www.pprune.org/forums/members/217364-the-old-fat-one)


KIT,

You can hardly blame us - what with the great unwashed being so gullible and easy to please. In my day, a kind word, copy of the Sun and twenty Woodbines would keep them happy all day long.

PS

Before somebody else mentions it...brush up on your grammar old chap.


Well excuse me for breathing Old Fat One , as a serving member for 18 years I have seen the good times to the **** , we are in **** right now if you have not noticed. But rather than waste my time trying to explain like I have many a time to my JEngo I asked for time to go to college and do some further education I was told I cannot as im first line, end of story. So please dont quote me on that as its an issue I am aware of and im doing my best to get through , **** !!!

[davejb]

Keepittidy,
if you are genuinely interested, then first off Moray college run evening classes in all sorts - I did Higher English there yonks back, and compared to the schoolwork of the average RAF course civvy college courses are a complete breeze - turn up now and again, make sure you turn the coursework in on time and it's a piece of p. I did the Open Uni for donkey's years - the RAF subsidises that, work in your own spare time, with a week at a UK Uni in summer for some courses (as duty). That CAN get heavy going - many a time I sat on detachment looking at the sunshine while opening a book, but if ou want to do it you'll manage it like a huge number have before.

The RAF is pretty keen on improving the educational quals of its members - and you don't need the Jengo to okay stuff....it'd be a brave Jengo who was prepared to go into print to stop you gaining educational qualifications.

Dave

[KeepItTidy]

Thanks guys for the advice , i know doing education is frowned upon in our shift at work. I got a few years left and it would be nice to take advantage of an allowance that the government rates so highly but simple fact is we are not allowed to spend it being first line squadron. Ask any liney out there education is like sport you do when you get chance , chance is like 1 time in a year. So it may be portrayed like all aircraft techies get time off to do expeds and sport , in my time over nearly 2 decades i am not allowed to have fun things like sport. Time awaty from work means jets dont fly

[Jayand]

I couldn't agree more KIT, I too am on a frontline Sqn as Aircrew and getting time off to do college isn't even asked for as their is no chance, none whatsoever!
They love to advertise in the glossy brochures about investing in people and helping mould our futures but they dont really give a toss, end of story.

And old fat one, "comments like brush up on your grammar" are so patronising! what is important is that people get to have their say and their point is put across, not if a commar or puntuation mark is out of place you sanctimonious old ****.

[KeepItTidy]

OK Old Fat one I retract my comments as im an airman and I can do that.

My comments towards officers is justified, who else do us lower ranks look up to for leadership and direction (IMLC and NCO training says) , our peers and mainly officers. Over the last 5 years the RAF has went from being the best job ever for all to, well words cannot say it better wank !!!! , everyone wants out and not a week goes by when somebody wants to leave. You say you are an ex officer then you have not seen what has happened to our great service , my grandad, my father and I all been airforce , I left school and joined up and I have gave my bit , in 4 years my 22 will be done. I like you and all around me have enjoyed most of the years in the RAF until the last 5 years , the rot set in , things changed so much between now and them its an Air Force that is well not recognisable anymore. Sure you can say to me get on with it you are in the RAF ,stop whinging and all that , I have lost freinds , I have done my wars , I have been bombed,I have also nearly done my time to the country and all this time without question , but after giving so much surely I should have that right to question what my leaders are doing for my cause.
You come across as a typical one that refuses to accept blame and pass it on elsewhere, sure thats fine but for once think that when you were in many hundreds of people worked for you and made you what you are today in your nice retirement cottage and a nice pension, well done :D

[ExGrunt]

Interesting thread from all points.

@ OP

I doubt that anyone with real knowlege of COIN (or whatever it is called these days) is surprised. If we are to succeed in AFG we will need to be there for at least as long as we were in Malaya. But frankly given the additional issues of co-ordinating a coalition, relations with the host nation and the influence of the drugs trade you are looking to a commitment closer to the duration of Op Banner.

@ TOFO

It might not have been terribly well presented, but KIT does have a point about the standards of leadership. It seems to me that you can only get up the greasy pole these days by buying into the party line. A better response might be to help sort the wheat from the chaff of his posts rather than an all out attack.

@ KIT

Equally TOFO has a valid point about education. It is no use whinging. I studied for my civie qualifications between foot patrols in NI, there will never be enough time. You have four years to prepare to leave (or less if you get really hacked off). Once the gate closes behind you the forces forget you pretty much immediately. Outside no-one will give a flying f##k what you have done for the last 22 years unless you can contribute to the profits of the business. Ultimately the only person looking after your interests is you.

EG

[BellEndBob]

18 years and you still cannot string a coherent sentence together. The problem with the RAF is that is has oiks like you who clog up the system and do not better themselves.
Then, of course, you blame it on the Officers because you lack the basic intelligence and drive to be the author of your own destiny.
In case you have forgotten, you are a willing volunteer. If it is so bad, and you are so poorly treated, :{ then hand in your uniform and take the real world by storm. :ok:

If not, shut up.:*

[NutLoose]

While you are all having a pop at each other, what has this to do with the thread?

[Grabbers]

Perhaps KIT and TOFO should lend their considerable vocabulary to the UN and Mr Karzai's government. As any chimp with half a brain will agree, we will be in AFG for years, so the longer they are deployed/in exile the quieter this place will be (wrenches thread hopefully back near it's track).

[KeepItTidy]

Ok sorry I lost track of the topic, I apoligise. I just on high horse about something as of late and I guess i let out a lot of crap last night. Not meant to offend and if I did sorry.

[FFP]

Oi (boyo) ! What's wrong with the Rhondda ? I come from down the road from there like innit.

"Come home to a roaring fire. Buy a cottage in Wales" ;)

[NutLoose]

Ok sorry I lost track of the topic, I apoligise. I just on high horse about something as of late and I guess i let out a lot of crap last night. Not meant to offend and if I did sorry.


KeepItTidy There was no need to apologise I only commented as it was an interesting thread that was going off track a little.

I was not going to comment but after reading some of the other remarks I will..
Kudos to you though, you had for want of a better word, the balls to say sorry for straying off the thread, something some of the so called "Gentlemen" in here haven't.

I to was in the RAF and also was not an Officer, so I know where you are coming from, but don't paint all Officers with one brush, there are good and bad in all walks of life, sometimes arrogance and the belief they can do no wrong I am afraid gets passed off as knowledge and rank by those who have neither the intelligence nor foresight to see past their own little world.
The comments "oldest SAC in the RAF" is just another odious example, possibly by the equivelent Officer rank who knows he will never progress further, namely a Career Flight Lieutenant.

Having met many Ex Officers in the industry I would say on the whole a lot of them are good people, though there are some who would struggle to tie their own shoelaces without the support of all the hard working people in the RAF behind them.
It comes as a bit of a culture shock to a many of all ranks when they leave the RAF as the "mollyCoddling" of the system dissapears overnight, accomodation, medical coverage, food, wages are no longer there day in day out, outside its all up to you to sort..


I do not know what rank you are KeepItTidy and to be honest it does not matter, but one thing though I have learnt is no matter what rank and position in the RAF you hold, without those people the whole thing would grind to a halt....
In the real world, senior management often spend a week on the shopfloor so to speak, to learn how it all works, perhaps that would be the way forward then those that try to use people as a career move upwards, can understand the difficulties of operating and maintaining Aircraft or indeed any of the support trades often in difficult conditions, in theatre with long hours and lack of support...... It would make for a better work ethos, greater professionalism and increase moral.
Say a week would do it..... I am often pleased when in the Real World Junior Pilots ask me to show them how things work and explain the tasks we do to further their knowlege and understanding, perhaps something the RAF should take on board. It team builds, which is something that often gets left behind at the doors to the Messes.
I often found it strangely disturbing that several Officers (and they were few) on the squadrons I served on seemed to relish tormenting and making the lives misery for several Airman on whom their lives depended day in day out..... We all have pressure in Our lives, but to heap extra on the shoulders of those that are working to keep you alive seemed to be an accident waiting to happen.



As for the comments of Old Fat One, perhaps EX Officer was the correct move......
Shame on you 1.4g for using the fact someone was apologising for taking the thread offline to have a poke at him, you acted like a prepubescent schoolboy with the urge to rub himself up against something to get that warm glow.... Well, I hope you are basking in it...

Now please let's get back to the thread

[KeepItTidy]

Thanks Nutloose appreciate your words of wisdom :ok:

My posts were a bit to cut to the bone and I maybe should have said what I mean in a less anti-officer way. If I had added less venom to my posts maybe it would have not got such a reaction.
I still stick my point that higher echelons of the military have questions to answer why we have fallen into the state we are in right now, surely all the blame cannot go into Government alone and my point being is what I said previous some have to take the hit and accept bad choices. When was the last time you heard a " oops guys we f****d up , sorry", never in my time.

Anyway , this can be continued on a post elswhere, sorry to post starter for ruining your thread :E

[Modern Elmo]

It's "toe" the line. Think of police asking a drunk driving suspect to walk a straight line along the side of the road.

Or do they do that in the EU provinces formerly known as UK?

[Tiger_mate]

It comes as a bit of a culture shock to a many of all ranks when they leave the RAF as the "mollyCoddling" of the system dissapears overnight, accomodation, medical coverage, food, wages are no longer there day in day out, outside its all up to you to sort..



"Mollycoddling"

Accomodation: If I had murdered the wife on my way to my new unaccompanied tour I would have got a bigger room to stay in overnight, and one with a built in shi77er.

Medical coverage
Just dont start me on that one.

Food I wish it was pay as you starve, for then I would eat out rather then putting up with the garbage on offer.

Wages

Fair one; there has to be a reason that I tolerate the others. However at the end of the day, it is a salary not a gift; and it is earned.

[navibrator]

How ignorant you are. You do not know all officers so your generalisms are false.

[noregrets]

TOFO - 'surposes'?

Brush up on your spelling old chap :}

[greenfreddie]

The being in Afghanistan for years masterplan must have been around for a while, the early '07 plan for Camp Bastion involved a sports pitch and running track, for goodness sake...not sure if the olympic size swimming pool made it into the final cut though.

[NutLoose]

"Mollycoddling"

Accomodation: If I had murdered the wife on my way to my new unaccompanied tour I would have got a bigger room to stay in overnight, and one with a built in shi77er.

Medical coverage
Just dont start me on that one.

Food I wish it was pay as you starve, for then I would eat out rather then putting up with the garbage on offer.

Wages

Fair one; there has to be a reason that I tolerate the others. However at the end of the day, it is a salary not a gift; and it is earned.

Wages work for some of the smaller companies in the UK and see when you get a payrise, I often smile when the Forces, or anyone in the civil service bemoan their 1.5% pay rise, when in the real world people often do not get one for up to 10 years in a row... I had to threaten and hand my notice in before I was taken seriously in the past to get a payrise.

The Accomodation was still there and provided though regardless, you did not have to drive around for hours looking for somewhere to stay as you often have to when contracting in Civi Street..

Food, again it is there whether you like it or not, unlike outside the military where you can struggle to find somewhere to eat at 3 am on shift.

Medical coverage. bar the shocking loss of the Military Hospitals which could have been used during peacetime to take in NHS patients as an overflow, then It is still there, cut yourself badly here and when a First Aider is finally found you then will struggle to get to a hospital or Clinic that will see you 4 hours later......