PDA

View Full Version : IMC rating


gasman123
11th Jul 2008, 19:54
I'm looking at a plane to buy a share in - a 1974 piper archer 1. Probably not my first choice, but reasonably priced, seems to be a well run group and beggars etc......

Anyway, I'm a low hours ppl, keen to hours build for experience and fun and also would like to do my IMC - even if it disappears I'm sure the experience would stand me in good stead.

The avionics are fairly simple, no GPS but

"Panel includes Dual Altimeters, Dual Nav/Com with dual CDIs (1 with glide slope), Mode C transponder, ADF and DME."

Pardon my ignorance, but is this enough to fly IMC with?

Many apols if this is a really stupid question :rolleyes:

BigEndBob
11th Jul 2008, 20:15
Depends how old the avionics are, if you can find out how accurate the vor are and the reception range of the ADF.

I have one client doing an IMC in his old Cherokee, the ADF has a reception range of 3 miles and VOR's are 10 degree off, not good when you're in the thick of it.

IO540
11th Jul 2008, 20:15
You cannot train, for the initial award of a license or a rating, in a plane unless it is maintained to Public Transport standard, or unless you (or spouse, and some other cases) own it wholly.

The above is what stopped me, at the last minute, some years ago, from buying a share in one otherwise nice plane, in which I was hoping to finish the IMCR.

The other thing is that since you are buying a share, it sounds like you will want to fly this plane long-term. In that case, the VHF avionics (VOR, LOC and radios) need to be FM Immune. More practically, the stuff really needs to work.

Have a look at the rest of the group. If the group contains some VFR-only pilots, these are likely to not want to pay to fix some piece of avionics which is relevant to IFR only. The group I refer to fell apart largely for this reason (actually there was a big turnover of shareholders) and this is quite common.

Bigendbob - I wonder how that plane gets through its Annual. If somebody does a radio check on it, they must end up doing the old trick where you placard everything "INOP", sign the release to service, and the customer then peels off the stickers ;) Actually I don't think this can be done legally - but I did my IMCR in planes which were worse than that!

gasman123
11th Jul 2008, 22:07
The plane currently has a public transport certificate, but will lose it when the engine hits 2000 hours (I think) then the certificate can be downgrade to "buy" another 200 hours, but don't quote me on that. 1875 hours at present.

I asked if the group was willing to upgrade avionics/ buy gps etc and was told there was a 50/50 split between VFR only for fun flyers and IFR/ IMC will go anywhere flyers. In a group of 16 I suppose that is par for the course! The avionics look old, dial up VDF. I have no idea how well they work, only sat in the plane so far.
FM immune -thanks for that tip, no idea, will look it up- this really is all new to me. My instructor has done some pilot checks on this plane & from his memory he thinks the avionics are OK- hardly a precise answer!

IO540
12th Jul 2008, 07:42
Sounds dodgy if you want to use it for anything serious.

OTOH you could take the view that it is cheap and you can always buy your own GPS and perhaps a handheld radio in case the one in the plane packs up. That is how I was doing my post-PPL self fly hire.

You probably don't want to be flying approaches for real in this thing though.

homeguard
12th Jul 2008, 08:11
There is no such thing as a public transport C of A from this year that is relevant to you. A Public Transport certificate will only apply where paying passengers and freight is involved. To find an aeroplane therefore with a public transport certificate it will be due for a full C of A inspection almost immediately, therefore an expensive time to buy into it.

To train in an aeroplane it does not have to be maintained to ' Public Transport'. The last inspection must have been undertaken by a licensed engineer and a 'Release to Service' issued.

Being a Cherokee the engine will have a TBO of 2000 hours with a possible 50% extention taking it to 2400 hours or longer - on condition, if no training was to take place form then on, that wouldn't matter.

ADF's are a real problem but a new one is very expensive and with the threat that many NDBs are due for closure, perhaps a poor investment right now. I wouldn't advise joining any group that wasn't set up to maintain the aircraft and equipment to licensed standards. Old equipment well maintained can be more than adequate. FM Immune is a must if IFR flight into controlled airspace is on the agenda. Some will argue that FM Immune is legally required for an ILS outside of Controlled airspace, they could one day be proved correct.

As to the condition of the aeroplane and equipment in question, speak to the engineer who maintains it and look into his eyes as you ask the question. What arrangements do the group have to replace the engine - don't walk into a large bill from the off.

gasman123
12th Jul 2008, 08:20
Thanks for the advice, I may still go ahead & buy it for cheap VFR experience.

The syndicate may not let me in in any case as I will need to be specified on the insurance in any case due to my hours (their company specifies 100).

This strikes me as a slightly unfair loading - is a pilot who takes 100 hours to pass their test (and then has no insurance issues) safer than a pilot who takes half that? Don't know the answer to that. A specified minimum number of hours post ppl would seem more fair to me. Maybe the companies have the stats to support what they do, although I suspect these numbers are plucked from the air.

gasman123
12th Jul 2008, 08:28
Hi Homeguard, posted simultaneously.

The plane is an ex trainer from a large professional club, maybe that is why it has a public transport C of A. They will almost certainly allow this to lapse to gain an extension. It is still maintained by their club, I will talk to their engineer next week.

There is a moderate slush fund for maintenance and engine, I'm happy with that aspect.

Thanks for the advice :)

IO540
12th Jul 2008, 09:02
As a minor point Homeguard, an ADF doesn't cost as much as many believe. Go to here (http://seaerospace.com)and enter KR87 in the search box. Especially if replacing a previous ADF installation. The KR87 is the most reliable ADF by far, with sealed electronics in the belly antenna.

I also think that while NDBs will be withdrawn for enroute nav (basically because almost nobody uses them :) ) they are not going away for approaches, and Europe is packed with NDB approaches. Short of putting in ILS everywhere (which won't happen), VORs (which won't happen), or GPS approaches (which may happen one day but you need a heavily EASA certified GPS to fly them), I don't see the need for an ADF going away.