Low Flying in UK

[CHINOOKER]

If possible can anyone shed some light on the rules and regulations for flying military jets at low level in UK airspace!
The reason i am asking,is that on tuesday my wife and i were having a relaxed and pleasant trip through the Dorset countryside,(about 10 miles north of Dorchester),when the front windscreen was "filled" with an F15 from Lakenheath!!......The a/c could not have been flying at more than a 1000ft and seemed to be exiting a nearby valley after which it sped off at low level in a westerley direction!
As there are specific Low Fly areas within the UK,which are clearly defined,what rules do pilots have for flying low level,"outside"of these designated areas? I know in East Anglia there are specific routes for fast jets to and from the East coast ranges etc,but to see an F15 low level in Dorset was something unusual to see....at least for me!

[NigelOnDraft]

In that most of your last sentance is incorrect in almost everything it says :ugh: most of the first para is therefore meaningless :{

The a/c could not have been flying at more than a 1000ft I should work on 250' being legal in most of the UK ;)

NoD

[Pontius Navigator]

If possible can anyone shed some light on the rules and regulations for flying military jets at low level in UK airspace!
The reason i am asking,is that on tuesday my wife and i were having a relaxed and pleasant trip through the Dorset countryside,(about 10 miles north of Dorchester),when the front windscreen was "filled" with an F15 from Lakenheath!!......The a/c could not have been flying at more than a 1000ft

Within the rules this was clearly low flying but considerably higher than the normal minimum separation distance mandated by the rules.

As there are specific Low Fly areas within the UK,which are clearly defined,what rules do pilots have for flying low level,"outside"of thesedesignated areas?

Generally outside these designated low flying areas military aircraft are permitted to fly at their minimum separation distance to the next designated low flying area.

Areas where this is not permitted are in the vicinity of military or civilian airfield control zones or active danger areas unless prior approval has been obtain.

Significant centres of population should also be avoided.

A significant centre of population is typically a city, town or village and demoted by the presence of a church. By definition, a hamlet does not have to be avoided as it does not have a church. That said, crews will generally avoid overflying habitation at low level if they see it.

I know in East Anglia there are specific routes for fast jets to and from the East coast ranges etc,but to see an F15 low level in Dorset was something unusual to see....at least for me!

Not strictly true. There are what is known as flow routes. In other words aircraft will all be flying in one direction. The route is not a defined path as in a road.

Finally, with the exceptions mentioned, the whole of the UK is designated for low flying. Low flying areas are an administrative device so that aircraft can be 'in' a particular area at a given time. It is not improbable that they operate in two areas at the same time (ie on the border between two).

After the long answer, he was low but not that low. From what you say, he was in a low flying area.

Now 'my' odd sighting was a pair of F15 clearly sight seeing in an area usually devoid of UK military. They were flying along the white cliffs of Dover and well below us as we descended on the A2.

[microlight AV8R]

Is this a veiled complaint or fishing exercise?

1000ft aint low. A civvy flying device can fly as close as 501 ft of any person , vessel, vehicle or structure. As for military, I don't care about the rules... Let them fly low, there is a war on you know :rolleyes:

[aviate1138]

"when the front windscreen was "filled" with an F15 from Lakenheath!!."

That must have been one of those new giant F-1515's. Even an Airbus A380 wouldn't "fill the windscreen".

I suspect you meant 100 feet not 1000. And how did you know it was from Lakenheath?

[Max Shutterspeed]

That must have been one of those new giant F-1515's. Even an Airbus A380 wouldn't "fill the windscreen".

Probably one of those bifocal prescription windscreens you can get from Specsavers....

Go as low as you like near me, just leave the ridge tiles on...

Was camping in the Lake District last year (under great duress from wife and kids) and watched a sucession of low flying a/c over Kendal. Was particularly impressed with the C130 guys who were far lower than the Hawks and some of the Tonkas, even given the large airframe intimidation factor....

MS

[TEEEJ]

It isn't unusual and stop whinging! What you witnessed was perfectly legal.

Ministry of Defence | About Defence | What we do | Air Safety and Aviation | LowFlying | LFAs | Low Flying Area 02 (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/AboutDefence/WhatWeDo/AirSafetyandAviation/LowFlying/LFAs/LowFlyingArea02.htm)

If you feel that you need to make a complaint whinge to the following. They will put you straight!

Ministry of Defence | About Defence | What we do | Air Safety and Aviation | LowFlying | How do I complain about military low flying activity? (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/AboutDefence/WhatWeDo/AirSafetyandAviation/LowFlying/HowDoIComplainAboutMilitaryLowFlyingActivity.htm)

TJ

[side salad]

It might have been a UFO made to look like a giant F15?

Reminds me of various calls to Stations to complain about low flying, often late night early morning on nights when everything is tucked up in the hanger and aircrew are conducting eyelid exams. :)

[Gainesy]

Chinooker, coming from Ruislip, its probably an "event" for you to see a military aircraft "low". If you live in the sticks its practically an everyday occurence.

[CHINOOKER]

Blimey,....what seemed to be a simple "question" seems to have aggrivated some of the "wasps" on this forum!!
Guys,with regard to my post,i was just curious that's all...I AM NOT an officianado of the UK low fly system nor do i spend my spare time clambering up the sides of Welsh mountains!,(prefering instead a hot sunny beach in Barbados),..all i am is someone that has worked in aviaton for the last 40 years and have a keen interest in military aircraft.
As Gainsey rightly says,i live in Ruislip,Middx,so i unfortunately don,t get to see too much in the way of fighters etc,especially at low level as in this instance.
Having been a regular visitor to Dorset over the years,all i have ever seen at low level over land has been helos of one sort or another,so to see an F15 low down was something different....for me at least!!.
With regard to my observations with regard to it,s height,i do live more or less directly under the approach to runway 25 at Northolt,(and have done for the past 27 years),so i tend to know roughly what an a/c at around a 1000ft looks like!.......As for "filling the windscreen" well that was meant to be a bit a bit of a "tongue in cheek" comment,nothing more!,although when you are driving down a B road surrounded by nothing more than hedgerows and fields and an F15 suddenley appears in front of you,it does tend to concentrate the mind somewhat!!
With regard to it being from Lakenheath....Well the big black LN on the fin gave it away....even my eyesight isn't that bad!!
Pontius Navigator....many thanks for your post,you seem to be the only one on here who understood my post.....As for your comments regarding "flow lanes",that must be what i have seen....I have relatives who live in Murrow,Camebridgeshire and thinking about it,the jets i have seen there do all go in the same direction.
TEEJ....Sorry to dissapoint you....I WASN'T COMPLAINING/WHINGEING or MOANING IN ANY WAY!!.....If it wasn't for the fact that the missus was with me,i would have probably parked up somewhere and waited to see if anything else was about!.......The fact that i don't intentionally spend my spare time chasing fighters at low level DOES NOT mean i am against this sort of thing or the aircrew that do it!!

[foldingwings]

Not a very convincing backtrack, Chinooker:=! LN on its tail at 1000ft? I defy you, unless you have got the triple magnifying windscreen available from SpecSavers and the F-15 was standing still!

Stick to spotting, there's a good chap!

FW

[Pontius Navigator]

you inferred

CBA

No, no CBA, you inferred.

Chinooker did not imply.





Oh the for the pleasures of ISS :}

[WorkingHard]

CHINOOKER just think, some of the arrogant tossers that replied may one day be in charge of an aircraft with a lethal capability. Does not say much for the psychometrics in the RAF does it? thank goodness they are either in the very small minority or just pretending to have superior knowledge.

[Pontius Navigator]

Scruggs Wonderbus?

When did ISS die? I was on 7 course :). I know my daughter did it recently.

[WorkingHard]

CBA_caption - I was of course referring to the fast pointy things but to answer your question how about VC10, Tristar, C17, Dominie, Tucano, Tutor. in the normal sense no more lethal than any civilian hardware. (I think!)

[Navy_Adversary]

USAF/Low Flying ???:confused:

Now an Omani AF Jaguar, THAT would have filled the windscreen:eek:

[TEEEJ]

Chinooker,
My apologies. I read your post after partaking of a bit too much red wine!

Regards

TJ

[Dan Gerous]

Now an Omani AF Jaguar, THAT would have filled the windscreen:eek:

..and put a nice dent in your roof.

[Fintastic]

No, no, no, you're all missing the point.....1000' IS low flying for the yanks!!:E

[CirrusF]

Some of the arrogant attitudes to low-flying complaints on here are really quite disturbing. Having a bit of sympathy for folk (and indeed animals) who are shocked and disturbed by low-flying military aircraft is not difficult, is it? I am not arguing about whether it is necessary or not - but is it too difficult for you to imagine how some folk might be disturbed and irritated by it? Especially as the majority of the public were opposed to TELIC?

[octavian]

You are unkind Flintastic. I recall, in the early '80s, pottering my way through the Stanford PTA northbound toward Froghill (en route Eastern Radar at Watton), as we were allowed to do when the battle area was not active, and spotting an A10 on the horizon which very rapidly grew in size, as did his no's 2, 3 and 4. As I climbed the hill they descended and passed over my venerable Moggy Thousand Traveller at not many feet. That gun's a big b*gg*r. I'm not sure the aeroplane filled the windscreen but I do recall closing my eyes and ducking!

[A2QFI]

The military people who are engaged on Op TELIC have to train somewhere and then go and fight, whether the war is illegal and/or unpopular. As the Government don't have anywhere that they can realistically train abroad the answer is that the training has to be UK based. As our low morale, poorly equipped, shoddily accomodated, no body armour, soft skinned vehicled troops get on with their task the least we can do is let them prepare for it in a meaningful way and if a few NIMBYs don't like it they can complain thru 'channels' as is correct and proper in the sort of democracy that TELIC purports to be about.

[chiglet]

I remember [yonks ago] cresting a hill on the A38 and seeing a C130 [nearly] filling the windscreen...scared the "ex" speechless :ok:
watp,iktch

[octavian]

Oh dear Cirrus F, regardless of the rights or wrongs of our involvement in any operation, I do feel that our aircrews should have the chance to maximise their chances of survival without fear of suffering the retribution of the few who find that they are disturbed and irritated by low flying. I rather suspect that those same aircrew might be somewhat more disturbed and irritated by being blown out of the sky because they had been unable to practice low level evasive manoeuvres in the (relatively) safe environment that exists in the UK.

I am not disturbed by the comments on this thread that have been made about low flying, but I am worried about your indifference to its necessity, and your inference that the comments that have been made are arrogant. From my close contacts with those who were involved in military low flying operations at a time when there were significantly more aeroplanes engaged in it than now, my recollection is only of a determination to minimise disturbance and maximise training value.

I would very much doubt that the ethos has changed.

[US Herk]

No, no, no, you're all missing the point.....1000' IS low flying for the yanks!!
Oh, I'll bite - how 'bout 250' MSD IMC in the HRA on TFR? Us Yanks aren't allowed to OLF in the Tango areas by UKLFS, not by choice, we do, however, OLF overwater at 100' MSD on goggles though... ;):}

...OK, maybe the Lakenheath boys don't, but the the lads from 7th SOS at Mildenhall do. :ok:

[Fintastic]

US Herk - Glad to see someone still retains a sense of humor and understands the aircrew tradition of 'banter'! :ok:

[knowitall]

"Especially as the majority of the public were opposed to TELIC?"

But not so opposed as to prevent them voting back in the government who started it

[WorkingHard]

DS - no chip at all, I fully accept i would not have had the personal capacity to manage such a machine. just because I cannot fly a military fast jet does not mean my command of english is so poor as to not recognise arrogance and the dangers posed by such attitudes as displayed whenever anything to do with military flying is questioned.

[The PM]

DFO, (disguised flying object) but how do you know if it's a disguise?

By the dodgy comedy glasses, fake nose and moustache......

[US Herk]

just because I cannot fly a military fast jet does not mean my command of english is so poor as to not recognise arrogance and the dangers posed by such attitudes as displayed whenever anything to do with military flying is questioned.
What you confuse for arrogance and dangerous attitudes is typically neither. It is more likely protectionism as many restrictions constantly creep into low flying rules due primarily to ignorant claims by non-mil folk who perceive danger where there is none and wish to live in a world free of risk, yet are little prepared to understand what it takes to hone the cutting edge of the sword that protects from risk.

[foldingwings]

What you confuse for arrogance and dangerous attitudes is typically neither. It is more likely protectionism as many restrictions constantly creep into low flying rules due primarily to ignorant claims by non-mil folk who perceive danger where there is none and wish to live in a world free of risk, yet are little prepared to understand what it takes to hone the cutting edge of the sword that protects from risk.

US Herk, well said, sir!:ok:

[WorkingHard]

US HERK - indeed well said. It would be quite ideal to think you are correct and despite what others may think of my comments from time to time, I genuinely hope you are indeed correct. Some encounters would occasionaly seem to suggest that is not 100% the case but ce la vie, one lives in hope.
BTW before any one decides otherwise, I am ABSOLUTELY behind all our service personnel without question as I believe the VAST MAJORITY of UK nationals. They need better equipment, better support and a miriad other things.

[Mercyman]

From what i remember the yanks were allowed down to 500' and they got that wrong on a few occasions.

[US Herk]

From what i remember the yanks were allowed down to 500' and they got that wrong on a few occasions.
Can't speak for the F15, but MC-130H fly 250' MSD in UKLFS and 100' overwater (not allowed to OLF in Tango areas per UKLFS)...

[c8 sdd]

I remember driving along a isolated fenland road last year, in between downham market and
wisbech in absolute darkness.
This particular road really is in the middle of nowhere ... with no trees or
houses/farms for at least two miles in all directions.

I stopped the car when i heard a herculies approaching.

He was extemely low ... no great deal ... until you realise i'm sitting
under a 400kv supergrid line of pylons (the ones that run from walpole st
andrew to ely).

I'm not sure if he flew *under* the wires ... all i could see were the lights
on the aircraft as it was totally pitch black/no moon light.

From my estimation the lowest cables are 150 feet off the ground.

[US Herk]

Doubtful he flew under them...250' seems awfully low when unaccustomed to seeing large Alberts at that height though...even harder to judge at night.

[Chough]

Get yourselves down to Cornwall and join the Culdrose Hawks and Jetstreams in their low flying and make this civvie very happy!! Plenty of airpsace available down this way the Typhoon detachments at St. Mawgan loved it.

[Pelican10]

Yes, The Policy and Rules for Military Low Flying Training in UK Airspace can be found on the Defence Web Pages; the best starting place to "surf" in to the rules is here:

RAF CRO Wales - RAF Station homepage (http://www.raf.mod.uk/crowales/)

From here you can find your way to : Low Flying, What / Where etc.

Hope this helps

Cheers

[fallmonk]

It's being discused on BBC radio 2 on the Jeremy Vine show today (now)
some Welsh Mp is unhappy !

[Tankertrashnav]

some Welsh Mp is unhappy !

Another good reason to continue low flying!

[Vox Populi]

Upset Taff MP: BBC News - Elfyn Llwyd MP demands rethink on low-fly jet training (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-10720984)

Interesting US Herk, that you now fly at 250 msd, the old reasoning of restricting US mil to 500' MSD in the UK was that that was how low UK mil were allowed in mainland US. Has this now changed?

[E-Spy]

Certainly the 500' reciprocal agreement applies to the GAF - the MP is definitely wrong if he thinks the GAF can fly lower in UK vs German airspace!
Oh to be at 250' again.....

[ShyTorque]

"Military low flying training is an ongoing requirement, especially as there is a war on".

Welsh MP: "Eh? These military low flying jets have made me deaf, I need compensation!"

"Military low flying training is an ongoing requirement, especially as there is a war on".

Welsh MP: "Eh? These military low flying jets have made me deaf, I need compensation!"

"Would half a million pounds be sufficient to compensate you?"

Welsh MP: "I'm cured, I'm cured!"

[renrut]

One of the comments from a caller '' The aircraft was flying at 50' and I could see the colour of the pilots hair''
Muppits, all of them

[rich2010]

I work and live in Cumbria, have no affiliations to any particular service and stumbled onto this site ages ago - however, I feel proud to hear (mostly) and see these brave (well-trained) pilots going about there stuff in 'my' valleys. Yes I've been momentarily stunned when one 'creeps' up on me, but as fast as they've come, they've gone. When I watched the ITV or Five series about FAA Harriers in Afghanistan, seeing the terrain, etc it justs shows that training here is required to prevent these guys slamming into mountains 'for real'. These NIMBYs get my goat as they're the same ones harping on about global greenhouse gassing holes, but complain about wind farms being noisy.

:mad:

:D to all the low fliers - fly especially low over my house next time - although not when kids in bed...

[anotherthing]

Working Hard

CBA_caption - I was of course referring to the fast pointy things but to answer your question how about VC10, Tristar, C17, Dominie, Tucano, Tutor. in the normal sense no more lethal than any civilian hardware. (I think!)
No one would have considered civilian passenger jets as having 'lethal capability' until 9/11. The very fact that mil aircrews are so well versed in low flying and other arduous training makes these aircraft non-lethal weapons in peace time.

Take away the training opportunities and the aircraft become more and more lethal... irrespective of how pointy they are.

[newt]

Same old arguments we have heard for years! Lets hope the Viet Taff do not start burning holiday homes again!:ugh:

The boys can fly as low as they like over my place!

[Pontius Navigator]

and the bombing range, don't forget they burnt the bombing range.

[Gainesy]

but as fast as they've come, they've gone

No staying power y'see. Bloody rude, all the same. :)

[charliegolf]

Lets hope the Viet Taff do not start burning holiday homes again!



WTF has that crass comment got to do with low flying? Tit.

CG

[Training Risky]

ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh! Tell him boyo! :}

[DX Wombat]

I have a serious complaint about low-flying Hercules inter al. :E You don't do nearly enough of it :} and, worse still, you don't do any near my house :{ There are some locations which would benefit from a little more attention and where use of the QFE for the bottom of the Dead Sea is recommended. (Not recommended for fast jets but definitely the Hercules and any particularly noisy helicopters) :E (coordinates available on request).
Rich2010 has it right. Keep up the good work, far more people appreciate your efforts than the miseries who don't. :ok:
The most recent event which made me smile was the USAF Hercules at Prestwick told by ATC to "Give way to the Cessna 152 crossing the taxiway from the right". As I was the person in the 152 it made my day. :) :ok:

[mac_scott]

Can I echo Rich2010's comments.

For every muppet who moans on about low flying there are 100's of us out there thinking two things:

"God I wish I was him/her, imagine getting paid to do 400kts+ IAS at 500ft"

Followed right away by

"God I'm glad I'm not him/her as they could be doing it for real tomorrow with all sorts of nasty sh%t aimed at them..."

Respect for the flying skills and the balls to do what has to be done when you're asked to do it......

Mac

[charliegolf]

ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh! Tell him boyo!

Yes, I think my PMT has passed now.:ok:

CG

[ShyTorque]

Only taken 50 years then, CG! ;)

[Windy Militant]

A couple of points regarding this first there's only a fraction of the flying going on these days. In the eighties there were basic trainers from Valley, Weapons training flights from Brawdy and Chivenor whistling about in Hawks and Hunters plus the Tornadoes, Phantoms, Jaguars, Harriers, Buccaneers, Hercules and even on occasion the odd Nimrod .
Secondly apart from the Plaid MP none of the complainants had local accents.
Had the same thing back home the locals mostly ignored the jets, the Sais incomers complained about the Low flying, Combine harvesting late at night to get the harvest in before it rained, The cockerels crowing, the dawn chorus, the smell of cowsh*t, whatever they could find to moan about.
A point of order about the "Meibion Glyndwr" Most of the holiday homes burnt down were not torched by the Viet Taff but were hovels which were burnt down by the owners to bypass the planning regs and get the insurance to pay for rebuilding the place before flogging them off.:}
There were some potentially nasty incidents two of which involved friends of mine which could have led to them being killed or seriously injured so most sensible people were glad when they were apprehended.

[charliegolf]

Classy Newt, classy.:D

Catches up with us all Shy, your turn will come.:ok:

CG

[ShyTorque]

Catches up with us all Shy, your turn will come

Unfortunately, it came some time ago, old son. :(

My youthful looks and good humour are obviously too deceptive, or your memory's gone, cough, cough.. :O

[newt]

Classy! Thats me CG. Any time MATE!! Get some time in and then let us know who you really are!:}

[Bubblewindow]

Hi Chinooker,
Just noticed this thread and your username. If it had of been a Chinook you saw then that would have filled your window down at 50ft!!!

With regards to the MP etc, Im sick to the teeth of the amount of moaning going on the past few months!! WTF is wrong with these people other than greed and biggotry. During the cold war there were Phantoms and Bucaneers queuing to get through these valleys and now a spattering of Hawks, the odd herc and a bi-weekly flight of F-15's.
The moaning has had an effect, the "Loop" for instance, hasnt seen a Tonka for weeks with the only frontliners "doing the Loop" being the Eagles. Im sure this is to do with certain events in the media recently but that subjects been done to death :=

Lets see what effect its going to have on the local economy when the "village pub" for instance, is not raking in a couple of grand extra a week from people coming to the area to see these aircraft training, not to mention the most valid point of all that the crews need to engage in this type of flying no matter what anyone says. "
"They can do it on computers these days" was a comment I got one day.
The computer doesnt wrench your guts in a 5g turn for 15 seconds exiting the Loop now does it?
"Heres your FSX wings son, now go and fight!!"

Anyhoo, off on leave next week to a quaint little cottage I rented in mid Wales, hope them darn jets arent about to annoy me, get enought of aircraft in work!!

.............Yeh right.. Bting it on lads!!! I'll be sitting in the Garden waiting, beer in hand to toast to the some of the best pilots in the world!! :D

TATA,
BW

[BEagle]

Back in the days when we had an RAF of almost reasonable size, there would be the occasional exercise involving the Tin Triangle, which would result in a stream of bombers over the target at 5 min intervals....

One day, someone rang Waddington and complained that "That damn aircraft has been circling my farm for the last hour! Can you tell it to go away please!"

Watching Test Pilot and Fighter Pilot recently, I realised just how much the RAF has lost since those days. The sheer number of aircraft types, for one thing....:uhoh: