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OFBSLF
10th Jul 2008, 15:47
Hailed as the ideal combination of speed and convenience for the business traveler, the BA609 tilt rotor aircraft, which has been prominently displayed at most major aviation trade shows in the past year, may be an aircraft whose time hasn't quite come yet, according to Bell. The Fort Worth Star Telegram reported this week that Bell is shifting most of the development work on the intriguing aircraft to its partner AgustaWestland, largely because it will be too pricey to find a market in the U.S.. "We designed the 609 for a new U.S. market and unfortunately we are not seeing that materialize, so we are looking at all options that make sense for the future of this program," Bell Helicopters CEO Dick Millman said in statement issued to the newspaper.

Bell Backing Off From Civilian Tiltrotor? (http://www.avweb.com/avwebbiz/news/BizAv_BellHelicopters_BackingOffFromTiltrotor_198266-1.html)

ShyTorque
10th Jul 2008, 16:00
Some of us have been concerned for years that this aircraft is actually just too specialised and expensive for its own good. :oh:

Engineering achievement, ten out of ten. Practicality and economic viabilities, far lower down the scale.

I'm afraid that in UK in particular, it could only ever be a niche model, or to put it more bluntly, a novelty status symbol. In a declining economic climate that niche possibly doesn't exist.

I wish it were different, hope I'm wrong.

Shawn Coyle
10th Jul 2008, 16:30
It's often been seen as a solution looking for a problem.
There are some places where it's unique characteristics will carve a niche. Longer distance trips (for helicopters) where speed is of the essence appears to be it's strong point.
Aside from a few VIPs who might be worth the cost, search and rescue offshore comes to mind - as long as you don't need to pick up too many people. Oil rig support for deep-water wells is another possibility - especially for parts that put a rig down for production. At a price of lost production goes up with the price of oil, the tilt rotor will be very attractive.
And then there are the few relatively remote,but not too distant locations that can't be serviced by fixed wing and are too far away for current helicopter support. Expensive, but may be necessary for medical purposes, for example.
I'm sure there are others, but essentially it's going to fit between a helicopter and a fixed wing, and needs to find it's own market.
And there is always the possibility that it will create another market.

I have faith that Agusta will have the political will to make this happen.

EN48
10th Jul 2008, 18:32
I can accept the notion that the 609 (and tilt rotors in general) are a magnificent technical achievement. So far, however, these seem to be a huge bundle of compromises. One could purchase a new S76 and King Air B200 and have enough left over to operate both for several years without spending what a new 609 is projected to cost. Both of these aircraft will do a better job re their part of the mission too! One has to want or need the combined capability a very badly to go with the 609. Some will say that this is the entire point, but these will be few in number, and as other have suggested, this points to a small market.

EN48

Brian Abraham
11th Jul 2008, 05:09
Who do you believe? From Aviation International News today.
Bell Helicopter Still Committed to Civil Tiltrotor
A Bell Helicopter spokesman denied speculation that the company plans to pull the plug on the Bell/Agusta BA609 civil tiltrotor or sell its entire stake in the program to Italian development partner AgustaWestland. Speculation about Bell’s future in the program escalated earlier this week after Bell CEO Richard Millman told the Fort Worth Star-Telegram, “We designed the 609 for a new U.S. market and unfortunately we are not seeing that materialize, so we are looking at all options that make sense for the future of this program.” Orders for the 609 have remained nearly static, at approximately 80, since 1996. The spokesman said the company is looking at ways to get “[the] cost out of the product” and looking at “refreshing” its technologies, primarily the avionics. “Bell invented this technology and continues to believe in this technology,” he said. “However, it is no secret that the Italians want to speed up the program,” which is now scheduled to deliver certified aircraft by 2012. Two BA609s are currently in flight test–one in Italy and one in Fort Worth. Two more aircraft scheduled to join the test program earlier this year have yet to be added.

tottigol
12th Jul 2008, 03:52
Mmmmmhhhh, what ardent opposer to the practicality of tiltrotors was recently hired by Bell?

Thud_and_Blunder
12th Jul 2008, 09:18
Niche market... Ten years or so ago one of my last Chinook tasks was the recovery of a Bristows S61 from N of Ullapool to Aberdeen. That night Bristows kindly accommodated us in what used to be the Skean Dhub (sp?), and while we were there the Chief Pilot came in and had a chat. When the conversation came around to where the commercial world was heading, his opinion was that a niche worth watching was the provision of support to the largely-automated, remote north-west oil installations then being mooted off Scotland. His view was that a fast, small-footprint VTOL system would be ideal for the job, and reckoned that the 609 would be one to keep an eye on. Perhaps with the rising price of oil, such an idea will be affordable soon?

WhirlwindIII
12th Jul 2008, 11:46
Maybe it will all go the way of ABC design.

Brian Abraham
16th Jul 2008, 04:01
From Aviation International News today.
More delays announced for BA609

By Thierry Dubois
July 15, 2008

Bell Helicopter (Chalet L3-7) here in a press conference yesterday strongly hinted the company is about to transfer more work to partner AgustaWestland in the protracted BA609 Tiltrotor program. “We are looking for the most efficient way to get the aircraft certified and we’ll possibly find some efficiencies in Italy,” Mike Blake, executive v-p for customer solutions, said. While one test aircraft resides in Texas and another in Italy, Bell has earmarked the next two for Europe. Bell’s and AgustaWestland’s respective shares in the program are believed to be 60/40, despite conflicting numbers given by the two companies.

It seems Bell/Agusta Aerospace delays the BA609 program by one year every year. This year, it has postponed its certification target from “2010/2011,” as announced in June 2007, to “2011/early 2012,” according to a new development schedule released by AgustaWestland. Blake only referred to 2011, an “unchanged” schedule. Last year at the Paris Airshow, CEO Giuseppe Orsi had even pledged to exhibit a customer-delivered aircraft at the 2011 event. A BA609 is performing daily flying displays here in Farnborough.

The number of flight hours performed in the flight-test program has remained practically static for five months, at about 300 hours. One BA609 flies from Bell’s test facilities in Arlington, Texas, while a second test aircraft flies from Cameri, an Italian air force base near Milan. Test pilots have explored the flight envelope to 25,000 feet and 310 knots.

In February this year, at the Singapore air show, a Bell/Agusta executive issued AIN a bullish update on the program, saying it would add some 100 flight test hours this year. He also claimed a combined 220 engineers work in the program in Italy and the U.S. In 2007, the FAA froze the airworthiness certification basis of the 12-passenger aircraft. The BA609’s first flight occurred in 2003.

Despite the delay, Bell/Agusta is here to confirm plans for a search-and-rescue variant of the BA609. Thanks to its 275-knot speed, the BA609 would reduce typical helicopter mission time by 44 percent. At more than 300 nautical miles from the coast, a BA609 could recover up to six people with its hoist.

Graviman
16th Jul 2008, 11:31
Bell/Agusta BA609 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BA609)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0a/BA609_02.jpg/300px-BA609_02.jpg

General characteristics

Crew: 1 or 2
Capacity: 6 to 9 passengers/5,500 lb (2,500 kg) payload
Length: 44 ft (13.3 m)
Wingspan: 60 ft (18.3 m)
Height: 15 ft (4.5 m)
Wing area: ? ft² (m²)
Empty weight: 10,483 lb (4,765 kg)
Loaded weight: ? lb (kg)
Useful load: 5,500 lb (2,495 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 16,800 lb (7,258 kg)
Powerplant: 2× Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6C-67A turboshaft, 1,940 hp (1,447 kW) each

Performance

Never exceed speed: ? knots (mph, km/h)
Maximum speed: 275 knots (315 mph, 510 km/h)
Cruise speed: 260 knots (299 mph, 465 km/h)
Stall speed: ? knots (mph, km/h)
Range: 750 nm (852 mi, 1390 km)
Service ceiling 25,000 ft (7,620 m)
Rate of climb: 1,500 ft/min (7.6 m/s)
Wing loading: ? lb/ft² (kg/m²)
Power/mass: ? hp/lb (W/kg)

EESDL
16th Jul 2008, 15:42
There are a lot more businessmen out there, even in the current climate, than is suggested here who value the time savings this machine can offer over everything else.
The only downside is the 'new technology' tag and the fact that we have still to be told if it can operate into London Westland.
If it can, S76D/jet combo does not compare - if it can't, then faff faff faff faff!

AdamFrisch
20th Jul 2008, 20:45
I wouldn't count it out just yet.

As a turboprop in normal flight mode she has the potential of being very fuel efficient with those small wings (less drag) and huge props (huge props = less power needed to maintain speed). And since the props are coupled, perhaps one could even turn one engine off in cruise?

Obviously she's going to suffer from only being able to take off with a certain amount of fuel vertically which will limit range, but maybe they can fill her up more if she does the rolling take-off with the nacelles in the 45 degree position?

I find this aircraft terribly exciting. It might just be the answer to everything.:ok:

MamaPut
20th Jul 2008, 20:53
Time savings... blah, blah


New technology..... blah, blah

What nobody seems to have made serious mention of is what the price and operating costs will be for this modest 6-9 seater (about that of a Bell 407) :ooh:

ShyTorque
20th Jul 2008, 21:05
It might just be the answer to everything

Nothing is ever the answer to everything. I too was very excited about the tilt rotor, almost thirty years ago. I'm still waiting though .... :uhoh:

Battersea heliport apart, there are a whole load of helipads in UK where an S-76 or an A-109S will fit but this machine unfortunately will not. I'm certain it will find only a relatively small number of customers, at least in UK. If it needs to operate from an airfield at both ends of the journey, it has no practical advantage over a small bizjet.

Shawn Coyle
20th Jul 2008, 22:20
Several things are still not quite clear about this marvelous piece of technology.
a) performance is going to be pretty severely restricted by the ability to make use of the flexibility. We have enough trouble with Category A now for the different types of landing areas (elevated helipad, ground level helipad, short runway and long runway). Now we add the added dimension of an adjustable angle nacelle. I think we'll see only one or two nacelle angles available so there is a limit to the size of the performance charts, if for no other reason.
b) size constraints for operations. Again, alluding to Category A, there are going to be some pretty tight constraints on the size of the areas the 609 can operate from. A lot of oil rigs will probably be out of the question, and other helipads will be under scrutiny. I hope that Agusta/Bell have been doing their homework on this ahead of time.
c) the interface with Air Traffic Control is going to take on a whole new dimension - you can take off from a heliport that probably isn't featured in the normal IFR system and have to feed into the upper airways structure. There are a lot of delays between filing and getting airborne for this type of operation when operating from an airport - how is the 609 going to handle this from an off-airport site? (The V-22 can suffer the same sort of problem - they may have sorted this already.)
d) approach is going to be similarly constrained as takeoff is for performance. The inherent flexibility that the tilting nacelle offers also means that a consistent approach profile is going to be dictated by the manufacturer, and I would suggest that only one or two profiles will be given performance information or even allowed.
We have a long way to do until we unlock the complete potential of the tilt rotor - and I hope we can overcome those obstacles quickly.

FH1100 Pilot
20th Jul 2008, 23:11
Thirty years ago? Heck, Shy, I was excited about the tilt-rotor forty years ago! And by that time, Bell had already been working on the concept for fifteen years (since 1953). The fact that they're divesting it to the Italians is telling. I can imagine Bell CEO Richard Millman asking his people, HOW long has this company been working on this?? And it's STILL not certified? And won't be until 2012?? MAYBE?? Oh, fer cryin' out...Look, just dump it. Dump it NOW!

Shy and Shawn are right: A whole new infrastructure will have to be built to accomodate the 609. Can anyone imagine a 609 landing at a Manhattan heliport? Is there even one that could accommodate a tiltrotor right now? If not, scratch the New York market. Remember the much-touted IFR-MLS approaches to Wall Street that never happened?

At PHI, whenever a "big ship" (anything the size of a 412 or larger) was coming in to land on a platform where there was already a small ship (e.g. 206) parked, the small ship had to be lashed to the deck with airframe tiedowns and *both* blades had to be secured. What will happen when a 609 comes in to land at a heliport where other "normal" helicopters are parked? There'll be 206's and Astars laying over on their sides like toys, that's what.

And Shy is quite right, if the 609 is used where you have to go airport-to-airport at both ends then you might as well use a real King Air. I'd go further and say that the 609 might not even justify itself if there's a heliport at only one end.

I'm no clairvoyant, but I just can't see big cities approving and building big "vertiports" for the tilt-rotor. And oh yesh, they will have to be big. Let's see, where's that one in Washington D.C. gonna go? Wait, they already have one! It's called Washington National Airport. And 609's landing at the corporate headquarters? Man, I'd love to have the auto windshield repair business in that town!

Bell knows this, obviously. They know that the corporate market in the U.S. is just out...a non-starter. That leaves the rest of the world. Okay, maybe not Britain but parts of Europe, Russia, Africa...China? India?

Plus, I'm sure the CEO Millman had a sit-down, "Come to Jesus" talk with the engineers. He probably asked: What is this thing REALLY gonna carry? How fast is it REALLY gonna go...you know, with a load? And how far? Are we talking nine pax at 260 knots for 750 miles? From a vertical takeoff?

And the engineers probably said, "Umm, no Chief. Not even close. But you know, a JetRanger can't even hit all of its performance high points at the same time either."

At which point Millman probably said, What, are we f~</<ing married to this thing?! I want a divorce!! Get me Agusta on the phone, STAT!

Or maybe not. Who knows.

One one hand, I'm with Shawn Coyle. It'd be interesting to build it and see what market develops for it. Because you know one (or more) will.

On the other hand, I fear that the 609 will be Bell's equivalent of the Beechcraft Starship. A small number will get built, but not nearly enough to pay for the 60+ years of development, much less the tooling. They'll be virtually uninsurable and uncrewable and impractical. Then, one 609 will get into a fatal A-VRS accident (because civilian operators won't be hamstrung in their operating parameters like NATOPS does for the V-22). The 609 fleet will get grounded and eventually all will get recalled and scrapped.

Shawn talks about unlocking the potential of the tiltrotor. Personally, I think if the design had any merit, the potential would have been realized and exploited years...wait, decades(?) ago.

Te_Kahu
20th Jul 2008, 23:49
It makes one wonder what might have been if Bell had sold out of the 609 project first and stayed in the 139 project.

SASless
21st Jul 2008, 00:11
I wonder if Nick Lappos has taken the 609 for a spin yet?

spinwing
21st Jul 2008, 00:22
Mmmmmm .....

Just what the industry needs ..... another "A" model !!!!!

:E

jab
21st Jul 2008, 01:05
FH1100

All your points are valid and I do not see much of a market either but I hope I am wrong, would be great to have new stuff around.

It has been in development a very long time but could this not be the time when it all comes together? We finally have the materials that are light and strong enough to build it and engines are available with the OEI power that the thing needs to be certified. Time will tell.

tottigol
21st Jul 2008, 13:55
Y'all of little faith,:sad:I am very disappointed, while generally progressive (as any pilot ought to be) I feel like this thread is populated by a bunch of old and fat "big ship table" pilots (FH1100 knows who those were).
The fact that Bell was pulling out of the 609 was clear when they hired Nick Lappos, but Bell is also a company that has not been able to introduce a single winning product for the last generations of helicopters, of any size, and it's still looking for the Holy Grail (TM).
Name the last Bell helicopter product that has sold and actually produced more than 150 airframes in the last 15 years.
427, 430, 417, 210, ARH, LUH all these are failures by the number produced if compared by the years in service, not to mention their complete performance debacle AS A CORPORATE STRUCTURE in the LUH competition and their soon to be EX-ARH.
My bet is that whichever bright and motivated Bell engineer is still working on the 609 shall jump ship and get well rewarded by AW.
AW has already shifted their target to the parapublic/military crowd with much deeper pockets than the civilian market, Mr. Orsi has "unveiled" a SAR variant that in his words shall be very attractive for SAR/patrol work.
As far as entering the upper airway/IFR system from any point other than an airport, we ought to consider that 99% of departure arrival are generated from a restricted number of locations called AIRPORTS and that the initial time separation/routing plays a big role in the delays.
The helipads at the hospital we operated from had four letters locations assigned and were part of the NAS structure, apart from Ops Specs and GOM policies not allowing us take off in IFR conditions, we never experienced any significant delay even in those times of peak traffic.
Bob, a 609 landing at a Manhattan heliport? It's politics and the one with the deepest pockets win.
A 609 landing on a drilling rig with 206s and 350s scattered around? Policies in the Gulf of Mexico have changed considerably since you left and the trend is going to separate the chaff from the wheat, those 206s are a dying breed and most helicopters now have more than two blades.
Bell separating themselves from the 139 was not only a bad decision but in my opinion it costed this airframe the selection for the LUH, and that particular decision started a very marked trend of BAD corporate decisions.
Need to know why Bell's customer support is the best? Because they have to, in reason to keep after nothing but a fleet of older airframes with scant performance.

In the end ladies, can anyone of y'all disprove the performance figures reached so far by the 609?

ShyTorque
21st Jul 2008, 14:06
It isn't beyond the realms of possibility that a highly respected contributor, whose name I seem to have forgotten (must be my age...), has recently discussed at the highest level, with a certain manufacturer, the true operational limitations, practicalities and likely sales potential of this type of aircraft ....

..... if you know what I'm thinking, just reading between the lines here :oh:

Edit: Oh yes, the previous poster just pipped me to it - so that's the fellow's name ;)

Ian Corrigible
21st Jul 2008, 14:58
Not sure about the BA609 "being attractive for SAR/patrol work," but the Italian government is certainly an attractive enough customer for the type. Just look at the P180 Avanti (http://www.piaggioaero.com/en/products/aircraft/p180/showcase/showcase.php): a nice-looking business aircraft, but heavily dependant on Italian Government orders for its survival, operators including:

- Italian Air Force
- Italian Navy
- Italian Army
- Italian State Forestry Department
- Corpo Nazionale dei Vigili del fuoco
- Italian Civil defense
- Polizia di Stato
- Carabinieri
- Guardia di Finanza

This probably also explains the low-viz paint job on N609AG...:E

I/C

tottigol
21st Jul 2008, 15:03
All my respect to the person you mentioned above, however he did carry around a certain amount of negative opinion on the matter when already working with a certain other manufacturer.
As I mentioned before, I am certain there is a connection between his hiring and the divesting of certain programs by a certain manufacturer.
But the question remain, what was the amount of testing that this highly respected person actually did on the 609?
After 30 plus yeas with a certain manufacturer....

Rotorbee
21st Jul 2008, 15:57
I think Nick Lappos is enough of a professional to assess the 609 in a fair way. He would not have been hired by Bell, if they did not know this. Everybody is entiteled to an oppinion. Even I could write what I think about the 609. (I think it is a cool toy for tech freaks but will be a complete failure in the market). But Nick Lappos voice was certainly more important because he knows how the thingis we fly are built. Bell does not have other laws of physics to deal with and some things are just obvious. They knew what he said and still hired him. And probably that was just the reason why they hired him.

Unfortunately as a pro he will not comment this thread and rant a bit.
:E

Dan Reno
21st Jul 2008, 16:37
Bell's been grasping at straws over the V-22 when they said this so it is no surprise the 609 is a flop:

"Bell spokesman Bob Leder said compressor stalls in such engines were "really nothing."

"These kind of engine problems are very normal, not only within military aircraft, but in commercial aircraft," he said.

Dallas Morning News | News for Dallas, Texas | Dallas Business News | Dallas Morning News (http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/bus/stories/0711dnbusv22.17ad314.html)

FH1100 Pilot
21st Jul 2008, 16:49
Man! It's tough to ask realistic questions about the tilt-rotor without being labled anti-technology or anti-progress. Hey, I like new technology! I just don't think the tilt-rotor is showing us any.

Ian, the FAA database shows 85 Piaggio Avanti's registered in the U.S. The fractional ownership program Avantair claims that they are adding new machines all the time. It's a wonderful airplane with amazing speed, capabilities and economics. Although it's not a brand-new design it has definitely "come of age" and will surely enjoy a long and prosperous future as jet fuel becomes increasingly expensive.

Tottigol, when I made the comment about a 609 landing in Manhattan, I was thinking more about the sheer size of it and the downwash. Where will they put it, physically? Similarly, if a 609 lands at a typical (albeit sufficiently large) heliport and there happens to be an Astar on the next spot, I'd hate to see what happens. Even if 206's are a thing of the past, there will always be light helicopters in the EC-120 weight range. Wherever it goes, the 609 will likely need dedicated facilities - or at least one where they can land off in the distance and ground-taxi in. Which means they'll have to be big.

Speaking of which, there are probably GOM shore bases at which the 609 could not even operate because there isn't enough room.

We talk about big, deep-water drilling/production rigs needing instantaneous response when they're down - and this is true. But when they go down, it's for mechanical reasons, not personnel. I've carried my share of heavy, unwieldy rig parts, sometimes sticking out the back of my Bolkow (clamshell doors removed) to rigs that were down. A civilian version of the 609 would have to have a *big* cargo door.

We've all seen the neat video footage of the tilt-rotor in a hover and then making that screaming, nacelle-tilting take-off. Very impressive! But I wonder... Obviously they do that at fairly light weights. But can it do it at MGW/MAUW? This gets to what Shawn spoke about in his post: What happens when you lose an engine on a take-off from the vertical at max gross? What happens if you lose an engine on a running take-off at max gross with the nacelles tilted forward? The regulatory agencies are going to want to quantify these things.

Which brings up another thing: How big an engine will the 609 need to have SE-OEI hover capability? What about Cat-A capability? And what will the fuel burn be then? It would be terrific if we could design an engine in which the fuel burn decreased proportionately as the power decreased, but so far that's been unattainable. Turbines burn "almost as much" at flight idle as they do at full-power. Thus, if the 609 needs two honking-big 2,000+ h.p. engines for the hover, the cruise fuel burn is going to be jaw-droppingly astronomical too. Recent experiments with non-linear engine control technology in an H-60 helicopter with GE T700's only yielded reductions of less than 5% between hover and loiter modes over the baseline engine.

But again, Bell knows all of this. They cannot have studied this design since 1953 and *not* have figured this stuff out. It's still going to take X-amount of horsepower to lift X-amount of weight given two proprotors of X-diameter. Plug in your own numbers. As "Star Trek's" Scotty used to say to Captain Kirk all the time, "Ye canna change the laws o' physics!"

I wonder about more esoteric things. Like, all of that weight out at the ends of the wings and the polar moment it will cause...and that narrow landing gear... Just how "forgiving" is this thing going to be of sloppy pilots? We fantasize that every 609 pilot will be Chuck Yeager, but the reality is that there will be some weak pilots (perhaps SIC's) driving these things. Those engines look awfully close to the ground when they're vertical. What kind of slope can this thing take? Not much, I'd imagine - no "off-airport" landings for the 609!

And what about a hard-landing? Or even just a harder-than-normal landing? That gear sure looks skimpy...but with all that unsupported weight at the wingtips, how much vertical impact can the 609 take without snapping the spars like little twigs? I wish pilots were perfect, but history has shown us that we screw do up once in a while.

If this were the 1950's we might imagine a big terminal building in midtown Manhattan where 609's come in and land on the roof, then depart and whisk (nine) passengers to Washington D.C. or Boston. But we know now that it's impossible for a variety of reasons. When we dreamt back in the '50s we didn't consider things like noise, or downwash, or economics...or crashes. Too, there is a limit as to what people will pay for speed. Proof? Umm, just how many Concordes are still operating today?

My prediction: Pigs will fly before a commercial/civilian 609 does. And I say that with the honest realization that people have said some outrageous things in the past and been wrong. But no amount of wanting the 609 to succeed will make it so. As Shawn Coyle put it, the tilt-rotor is a solution looking for a problem. Adding to that, I think it's the answer to a question nobody is asking anymore.

The 609 might make a cracking good government-funded SAR craft, but it still remains to be seen if the oft-mentioned downwash will be a problem, especially when rescuing people from smaller boats (sailboats and stuff). Will they have to longline them up?

cockney steve
21st Jul 2008, 21:59
tilt-rotor is , imo, an unnecessarily complex means to an end.

The FAIREY ROTODYNE appeared at the Farnborough air show in 1958 and was reported to cruise past at "about 170 mph"

Gleaned from "meccano magazine,"July 1958 (I was 11, and still have the full year's copies:) ) 48 passengers, 46'6" wingspan, with 2, 3500HP Napier Eland Turboprops. the 4 rotor-blades were hollow, containing air and fuel lines to pressure-jets on the tips of the 90' diameter rotor. The air was supplied from compressors on the back of the main engines.

engines on low -power for directional manoeuvering,rotor powered for vertol power increased to engines for forward flight, wereupon the wing added lift.
The compressors were de-clutched,when sufficient speed was attained, thus it was effectively sconverted to an autogyro. fuel economy was said to be comparable with a similar-sized fixed-wing aircraft. It would operate from a 400' x 200' runway.

6 Nov. 1957 was first flight, Sq. Ldr Ron Gellatly firs flew in Autogyro mode on10 April '58..

Unfortunately, according to an internet article (Wikipedia, IIRC ) the project was scuppered by politics, the government of the day withdrew support inorder to finance some other, abortive project.

Thus, a pioneering British hybrid flying-machine was sidelined.

With modern technology, this would surely be a far more viable enterprise than the tilt-rotor.

Dan Reno
21st Jul 2008, 22:43
Yes, but can the 609 land in the airplane mode like its cousin?

21stCen
21st Feb 2010, 17:07
HELI-EXPO: AgustaWestland to learn BA609 fate by end of June
By John Croft ([email protected])


AgustaWestland CEO Giuseppe Orsi says the long-delayed decision on whether Bell Helicopter will cede its majority share in the BA609 civil tiltrotor program to minority partner AgustaWestland will be made by the end of June.
“The deadline to close one way or another is the end of June,” Orsi said at a press conference in Houston on 20 February as part of the 2010 Heli Expo show. “We have said we are ready to take the lead on that program.”
Orsi in September told Flight International (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/09/21/332427/agustawestland-looks-to-take-full-control-of-ba609-civil-tiltrotor-programme.html) that AgustaWestland parent company, Finmeccanica, had “authorised us to conclude negotiations within certain conditions to reach this important achievement", and more recently, that the two companies have been discussing a “restructuring and optimization of the programme” and have been evaluating the “best way forward” to ensure the success of vectored thrust twin-turboprop aircraft.

http://www.flightglobal.com/assets/getAsset.aspx?ItemID=30857 ©Bell/Agusta


He notes test flight activities for the first two prototypes “are progressing” while the two additional aircraft will join the test flight programme in 2011 and 2012, respectively. “I am convinced the tiltrotor technology based on the BA609 continues to be one of the most highly anticipated concepts ever, dramatically expanding the possibilities of what an aircraft can do,” he says.
Finmeccanica has said there is a market for 500 aircraft within 10 years of first delivery, including 40-50 for the Italian government. Orsi says BA609 certification in the US and European Union is on schedule for 2013 and that more than 80 of the $29 million aircraft have been ordered so far by 40 customers, including government agencies.
Luca Peruzzi in Italy contributed to this report.


Hope that "$29 million aircraft" is a misprint...

9Aplus
21st Feb 2010, 19:50
No, no it is real $29M, TNX to certification delay of not less than 2 Y :E

Ian Corrigible
21st Feb 2010, 19:52
Seems to be a slight difference of opinion between the partners. According to Rotor & Wing, Bell's new President "...added that Bell’s relationship with AgustaWestland over the AB609 would 'only strengthen and improve as we go forward.'"

The $29M price has been around for a year or so, based on a reported 20M Euro pricetag.

The 2013 date is new though -- up to now Agusta has been inisting that it would be certified by 2011, publicly rejecting previous claims by Bell that it might slip to 2012/3.

I/C

widgeon
30th Sep 2010, 14:21
Any updates ?. Have they built any production versions.
s/n 6002 on FAA database shows manfg year of 2003 and cert issue date of 2006. Does anyone know the status of the flight test program. In 2007 they were expecting to have 4 flight test aircraft by 2008.
Bell Helicopter - News: BAAC 609 Flight Test Continues Development Pace (http://www.bellhelicopter.com/en/company/pressReleases/PR_07_0618-04_609_TestPace.cfm)

Lonewolf_50
30th Sep 2010, 14:42
In the late 80's I attended an NHA in San Diego CA. At the time, the XV-15 to V-22 move was being made, and one of our (Navy) presenters described what was seen in industry as a significant potential market: Japan. Not a lot of land for runways, plenty of market for air travel, tilt rotor deemed then an excellent fit for their needs.
He'd been approached by some Japanese in the business world and (if I recall this correctly) been advised that "if you don't take advantage of this technology, we can and will. It meets a lot of our needs." Or words to that effect. (At the time, the LAMPS world in the Navy had fantasies of a V-22 style acft on the back of frigates and cruisers ... which hasn't happened. Seahawk meets the needs sufficiently).

I think some assumptions on cost were made that have since not born out as true. Also, high speed rail may be filling some of that niche requirement in Japan. I am guessing also high speed rail in Europe.

What is the market sector/niche that this aircraft fulfills, now, and in the year 2015, and year 2025?

I think it's a great bit of aircraft, but as other transport options mature and evolve, doesn't the 609's market niche shrink? Getting it to market in a timely fashion may help create or improve market. But it needs to get to market.

I see considerable wisdom in FH1100's post: when can this be gotten to market and sold, with support contracts as well?

How do you then grow the market?

To me, the key advantage of 609 is that you decouple your transport requirement from airports and trainstations, which are chokepoints/time sinks. But one still needs "X" quality of surface to operate from, and "Y" clearance, and "Z" adherence to noise abatements requirements in urban areas. Anyone have insight on the noise profile of 609? Noise has been a concern for the civil helicopter market, urban areas in particular, for quite a while.

Ian Corrigible
30th Sep 2010, 15:26
Widgeon,

No production a/c yet. #3 and #4 are now due to join the test program in 2011 (Cascina Costa) and 2012 (Fort Worth). #1 and #2 have logged 550 flight hours to date. #1 was grounded for a while earlier this year due to a proprotor gearbox crack, reported by Helicopter International (http://www.helidata.rotor.com/hi.htm) to be attributed to 'extreme handling,' possibly during the OEI trials (http://www.sfte-ec.se/data/Abstract/A2009-3-1.pdf) for which Roy Hopkins and Jeff Greenwood were given the 2010 AHS Frederick L. Feinberg award (http://www.vtol.org/temp/awards2010.html).

The anticipated announcement regarding the realignment of the Bell/Agusta partnership did not happen, and it would appear the discussions are still on-going.

Av Week (http://www.aviationweek.com) confirmed earlier this year that the Italian government is likely to bail out the program with an order for up to 50 BA609s for the various Italian government agencies (GdF, Guardia Costiera, Carabinieri etc.)

Av Week (http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=defense&id=news/awst/2010/03/15/AW_03_15_2010_p27-211021.xml) also reported that the program will need $1 billion to complete development and put into production, hence the on-going discussions between the partners...

I/C

Granny
26th Dec 2010, 19:40
What ever happened to the Bell 609-haven't heard anything about this aircraft for a while?

9Aplus
27th Dec 2010, 09:23
AW taking over..... Certification expected in 2012.

GSmithIAC
4th Jan 2011, 13:26
Where did you hear Agusta was taking over the 609? I'm a large vendor on the 609 program and haven't heard squat in years.

9Aplus
4th Jan 2011, 13:47
Dear GS, just across Adriatic sea....

:E

PS Nice to meet you here......

GSmithIAC
4th Jan 2011, 14:24
Nice to meet you too A9. I've been working on and off for thirteen years on this program thinking at some point it would go into production. I would have preferred it stay in the States, but maybe Agusta will do something with it?

9Aplus
6th Mar 2011, 18:20
Now in public..... BA609 project take over....:ok:
AgustaWestland has revealed it is in final negotiations to finally take full control of the long delayed BA609 civilian tiltrotor programme.

Heli-Expo 2011: AgustaWestland to take over BA609 tiltrotor project | Shephard Group (http://www.shephard.co.uk/news/rotorhub/heli-expo-2011-agustawestland-to-take-over-ba609-tiltrotor-project/8496/)

zalt
6th Mar 2011, 21:02
The Bell CEO denied here at Heli-Expo though.

PANews
6th Mar 2011, 22:10
Having heard and seen both performances by both CEOs I believe that Orsi was telling the tale and Garrison was wrong footed.

I guess that Textron want lots of money out of the programme but the Italians are [lets go for the American term] playing Hard Ball.

It looks as if Bell are being starved of funds..... the still slightly portly 429 looked to be pretty much sidelined in the PR focus and everything was slung at the 407..... the BIG Bell launch was a Garmin glass cockpit..... any other company [except perhaps Brantly or Dinky] would have seen that as a Garmin upgrade and left it to Garmin.

They never even mentioned specifics on 429 or 412 Magellan at the press conference.

Oh but they mentioned something about some magazine voting them best deliverer of spares for the 50th year in succession.... it was 50 wasn't it?

SansAnhedral
7th Mar 2011, 19:45
Sky Talk: AgustaWestland and Bell say no new agreement on BA609 tiltrotor (http://blogs.star-telegram.com/sky_talk/2011/03/italians-say-bell-has-agreed-to-turn-over-ba609-tiltrotor.html)

Update: An AgustaWestland official now says that AW CEO Giuseppe Orsi DID NOT say that Bell had agreed to turn over BA609 technology to AgustaWestland, as was first reported on the link below. Bell has also denied such an agreement.
Here's the earlier report:
Report out of the Heli-Expo trade show says AgustaWestland CEO Giuseppe Orsi says final negotiations are under way for the Italian firm to take over full control of BA609 civil tilt-rotor (http://www.shephard.co.uk/news/rotorhub/heli-expo-2011-agustawestland-to-take-over-ba609-tiltrotor-project/8496/)aircraft development.
These negotiations have been under way, sort of, for years but Orsi says that Bell has now agreed to turn control of the technology to AgustaWestland.
Bell spokesman Robert Hastings, following up on comments made by Bell CEO John Garrison, just issued the following statement to the Star-Telegram which suggests that either Orsi was misquoted, misinterpreted or Agusta and Bell are still not on the same wave length.
"Bell remains committed to certifying and delivering the worlds first commercial tiltrotor. We continue to work with Augusta to determine the best way to certify and bring the 609 to market," Hastings said.
Bell launched work on the civilian tilt-rotor aircraft, based on the same technology as the V-22 Osprey, back in the latter 1990s with Boeing as an initial partner. Agusta bought into the program later and has always been much more enthusiastic about its market potential than a series of Bell executives, who were always more focused on U.S. military aircraft programs and have only incrementally funded development work.
- Bob Cox ([email protected])

Ian Corrigible
13th Apr 2011, 00:15
Or something to that effect. This thread got a mention in the latest copy of Helicopter Life (http://www.helicopterlife.com).

Fame and riches at last.

Well, fame.

Almost.

:E

I/C

Pandalet
13th Apr 2011, 08:09
Helicopter Life - that's that porn mag for pilots, right?

Fantastic photos, truly dreadful writing, most people only look at the pictures...

iuk1963
20th Jun 2011, 13:08
an italian friend has forwarded this article concerning Agusta to acquire 51% of the JV from Bell. Anouncement to be done during the Paris Air Show!.. We'll see..

Un po' elicottero, un po' aereo. AgustaWestland farà da sola il convertiplano - Il Sole 24 ORE (http://www.ilsole24ore.com/art/economia/2011-06-18/agustawestland-bell-stop-161030.shtml?uuid=AaJuv9gD&fromSearch)

Aser
21st Jun 2011, 13:04
Bell Helicopter and AgustaWestland chart new direction for the BA609 | Vertical - Helicopter News (http://www.verticalmag.com/control/news/templates/?a=17243)

Regards
Aser

9Aplus
21st Jun 2011, 13:55
This time for real, let's hope so :confused:

PARIS: Interview: AgustaWestland chief executive Bruno Spagnolini (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2011/06/21/357940/paris-interview-agustawestland-chief-executive-bruno.html)

What is the current state of the BA609 programme with Bell, how will the programme be managed in future and when is aircraft scheduled to enter in service?
I believe it would be in the best interests of the programme for AgustaWestland to assume ownership and management over the programme going forward and we are finalising our discussion with Bell on this matter. In the meantime the first two aircraft have accumulated over 580 flight hours in the USA and Italy.
Aircraft No 3 is under assembly in Cameri, Italy and will enter the flight test programme in 2012. Federal Aviation Administration and European Aviation Safety Agency certifications and qualification for government agencies are expected in late 2015, with deliveries following in 2016. We strongly believe the tiltrotor concept is the answer to the need for overcoming the inherent limits of conventional rotorcraft in terms of speed, range and altitude and maximising the unique operational flexibility of vertical lift.
No other existing technology or concept can offer such an outstanding combination of fixed- and rotary-wing capabilities. No alternative rotorcraft design can reach the aircraft's performance, proving the most effective solution to replace mixed fleets of aircraft and helicopters in any category or size.

21stCen
21st Jun 2011, 16:39
From: Office of the Bell CEO
Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 05:00 AM
Subject: Message from John | New Direction for the BA609


http://mail.aol.com/33867-211/aol-1/en-us/mail/get-attachment.aspx?uid=1.29635731&folder=NewMail&partId=6


Bell Helicopter and AgustaWestland


Chart new direction for the BA609


Team –

Bell Helicopter and AgustaWestland have completed an agreement to sell Bell Helicopter’s interest in the BA609 commercial tiltrotor program to AgustaWestland. The announcement will be made at a press conference with AgustaWestland during the Paris Air Show today. As part of the agreement, Bell Helicopter will provide engineering services and will manufacture key components of the tiltrotor. This agreement does not include the transfer of V-22 tiltrotor technologies.

This decision will free up research and development resources allowing Bell Helicopter to increase our investment in the revolutionary V-22, to develop the next-generation tiltrotor technologies for U.S. Department of Defense programs and other applications, as well as increase our investment in our innovative commercial product line.

Bell Helicopter is committed to tiltrotor and we are excited about its future. The development of the next generation of tiltrotor is underway as we continue to build on the outstanding performance and capabilities proven by the Bell-Boeing V-22 Osprey. Bell Helicopter plans to continue to increase its research and development investments over the next five years for our commercial product line and for the next generation tiltrotor technologies.

In fact, Bell-Boeing has acquired a V-22 Osprey which will fly to our Xworx rapid concept engineering facility in the coming weeks. The “Advanced Tiltrotor Technology Demonstrator” will be used as a platform to test ideas recently developed by our team which could be put into practice quickly.

I would like to thank everyone who has worked on the current BA609 program and the transition team at Bell Helicopter and AgustaWestland for their hard work and professionalism during our negotiations.

At Bell Helicopter we are on a mission to advance the tremendous capabilities in tiltrotor technology along with conventional technologies and products that will continue to demonstrate Bell Helicopter’s leadership in driving innovation to meet the needs of our customers as One Bell. On a Mission. There are many exciting things to come.
http://mail.aol.com/33867-211/aol-1/en-us/mail/get-attachment.aspx?uid=1.29635731&folder=NewMail&partId=4
John L. Garrison
http://mail.aol.com/33867-211/aol-1/en-us/mail/get-attachment.aspx?uid=1.29635731&folder=NewMail&partId=5

21stCen
21st Jun 2011, 17:05
AgustaWestland takes ownership of BA609 tiltrotor

publication date: Jun 21, 2011
|
author/source: Terry Spruce
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http://corpjetfin.live.subhub.com/custom/AW609%20tiltrotor.jpgAgustaWestland has announced that it has taken full ownership of the BA609 tiltrotor programme. Bell Agusta Aerospace Company (BAAC) will be renamed will remain a US company being the new type certificate applicant to FAA. The new company will be totally owned by AgustaWestland and the BA609 tiltrotor will be rebranded as the AW609. The agreement is subject to obtaining the required regulatory approvals by the relevant authorities in Europe and the USA.

The AW609 programme will be managed by a single development team, to be based in Cascina Costa, Italy, from late 2011. The nearby Cameri site will be dedicated to the development programme for AW609 government applications. AgustaWestland will also open a new operational base in Arlington, Texas, to manage the US based tiltrotor operations. AgustaWestland is fully committed to rapidly proceed with the AW609 programme development capitalizing on the activities already performed so far.

"I believe it is in the best interests of the programme for AgustaWestland to assume ownership and management over the programme going forward," said Bruno Spagnolini, chief executive officer of AgustaWestland. "We consider the tiltrotor concept as the answer to the growing need for an aircraft matching the vertical capabilities of helicopter with the speed, range and altitude capabilities of fixed wing aircraft. AgustaWestland is investing in the next generation of rotorcraft technologies and the AW609 and future tiltrotor concepts are part of our innovation commitment."

"We expect significant worldwide market opportunities for the AW609, both for commercial and government applications," added Spagnolini. "In particular, the business and sales model case for the AW609 fits consistently with the AgustaWestland extensive, modern product range of dual use aircraft."

Bell Helicopter will remain involved in the design and certification of AW609 components for which it will be the supplier when the aircraft reaches the production phase.

PANews
21st Jun 2011, 18:16
Pretty much what AgustaWestland said at HAI in Orlando 3 months ago ... all of which was denied by a wrong footed Bell. Consistent then!

21stCen
21st Jun 2011, 18:27
Pretty much what AgustaWestland said at HAI in Orlando 3 months ago ... all of which was denied by a wrong footed Bell. Consistent then!

That is correct!!