Danger Area Notification

[fred737]

What is the simplest way of finding out whether a Danger Area in the UK is active?

Is there a web site?

[Johnm]

Contact details for each one are in the AIP and on the Charts.

In the air London Info or the local radar service can usually tell you.

[fred737]

Thanks. If the London Info controller has an up to date list in front of him surely it would be easy to put that list on the Internet and update it as and when required?

Or am I being too simplistic?

[BackPacker]

The list *is* on the internet. It's called the AIP. It has all the static details for *everything* related to aviation. Including the normal activation times of danger areas.

Changes to the AIP, either temporarily or permanent, are distributed by NOTAMs, which are also on the internet.

[dublinpilot]

BP,

In fairness to Fred, I think he's asking not about the activation times, but about live activity. In otherwards, a danger area could be active Mon-Fri 9am to 5pm, but often there would be no activity going on at that time.

Having said that, I'm not convinced on the benefit of publishing such a list. Just because there is nothing happening at the moment, doesn't mean that a phone call won't go though in 5 minutes advising ATC that they are about to carry out some activity. Therefore having checked the list, it's status could have changed by the time you've taken off, so you still need to check with the relevant ATC unit.

dp

[beerdrinker]

Backpacker,

I don't think Fred is being stupid at all. If the Danger Area is going to be active the Authority for that Danger Area have to let a number of people know. The American term is the area is "Hot". If London Info have an up to date list I think it is only fair that Joe Bloggs has access to that list when Flight Planning, rather than making a load of phone calls.

[PPRuNe Radar]

If London Info have an up to date list I think it is only fair that Joe Bloggs has access to that list when Flight Planning, rather than making a load of phone calls.

As stated, Joe Bloggs does have this list available. The online AIP and the online NOTAMs.

Crossing services and temporary closures (they are not NOTAM'ed for less than 2 hours duration) are tactical situations and access to the Danger Area can't be something which can be planned on. That's why DAAIS and DACS have published frequencies, for use when airborne, and when up to date and instantaneous information is available.

[Mark 1]

One good example is the Salisbury plain danger areas.
Salisbury Operations have a tape loop which is normally set up on Friday and played for the whole weekend.
Having this information available at the planning stage would be useful.

[hoodie]

It is available at the planning stage - ring the number on the half mill chart legend(01722 674710 or ...730, from memory). If there's nobody there, the same tape loop plays.

[englishal]

Having said that, I'm not convinced on the benefit of publishing such a list. Just because there is nothing happening at the moment, doesn't mean that a phone call won't go though in 5 minutes advising ATC that they are about to carry out some activity
Often you can call someone (Plymouth ops in the South) and they'll tell you..."Nah it is cold all day and will be cold tomorrow"...In which case it is a safe bet to assume it is cold.

So this list must exist somewhere and it would be useful if it was published on the Internet.....(FOr example the fLying orders of mil bases are known for a month or so in advance, so I imagine they know what is going on for that time).

[rans6andrew]

One day last year I was planning to fly to the other side of Salisbury Plain. I fancied taking the short route over the plain. I checked Notams and found that the radio equipment that would normally let you ask about which areas would be active was going to be down for service for a few days. I called the phone number from the chart and found it to be a dead line. I phoned London info and they gave me another number to call which was an answer phone which gave me the first number! I then called Lyneham AFB to see if they knew who I should call, they gave me a number for Boscombe, who didn't know who to talk to or which areas were active.

In the end I just went around, it was easier.

In this day and age, would it not be easy enough to have the info on a web page, even if only valid for a few hours hence?

Andrew.

[SwanFIS]

"If London Info have an up to date list I think it is only fair that Joe Blogs has access to that list when Flight Planning, rather than making a load of phone calls."

I know I am stating the obvious, however........

There are a very large number of Danger Areas in the UK managed by the RAF, Navy, Army and Civilian units. At Swanwick we get information about these DAs from NOTAMs, DA controlling Authorities and Swanwick Mil. This is then fed into out information system and is available to view on all the AC workstations. The fact that this information is constantly changing means that it is a complex job updating our database (a process that is being studied at the moment to see if it can be improved).

As we are all aware we live in troubled times and DAs can be bought into life at very short notice. The DA information you require for a pre-brief is available online and current DA activity is available on frequency when airborne. These are two distinct information sources to be used to safely transit or avoid DAs. A DA activity website showing current and planned activity would IMO only muddy the water and compromise safety.

Edit - Englishal "...........a safe bet to assume it is cold." := IN ATC we are told never assume and I reckon that would be very good advice for pilots as well, especially when it come to DAs :ok:

[beerdrinker]

As an exercise I have just checked on the 3 DA's I plan to cross on a flight from SW France to Henstridge soon. AIS Narrow Route Brief at 1020Z today showed NIL VFR notams for the London FIR up to FL 050. So I assume the 3 DA's I plan to cross are cold - D026,031 and 036.
To check I rang the number dor thes DA's in the AIP Plymouth Ops. The answer- a pre-recorded "I am sorry there is no one to take your call".

Pretty good service eh?

I still do not believe that it is not possible to have the list that "is then fed into our information system and is available to view on all the AC workstations. " on line. It is by this stage in electronic format and so should be able to be transferred to a web site. I accept that the situation is tactical and that one can get upto date info on the radio but at the planning stage for flight safety, one should be able to access the info easily.

"A DA activity website showing current and planned activity would IMO only muddy the water and compromise safety."

I don't think so. Look at the French Notams for each French FIR. They list all the Low & Medium level Military Routes, their times of operation and whether or not they are planned to be active or not during those times.

How does that compromise safety? I think it enhances it.

[PPRuNe Radar]

As an exercise I have just checked on the 3 DA's I plan to cross on a flight from SW France to Henstridge soon. AIS Narrow Route Brief at 1020Z today showed NIL VFR notams for the London FIR up to FL 050. So I assume the 3 DA's I plan to cross are cold - D026,031 and 036.
To check I rang the number dor thes DA's in the AIP Plymouth Ops. The answer- a pre-recorded "I am sorry there is no one to take your call".

Pretty good service eh?

Maybe they are busy carrying out their primary duties concerned with operating the ranges ??

In the absence of any information to the contrary, it is a very dangerous mindset to assume the areas are cold simply because they are not in the NOTAMs. They don't have to be in the NOTAMs because their hours of operation are clearly laid down in the AIP. If you want to cross them and can't get an answer on the landline, then you have to plan to fly around them during their published hours of operation and then tactically change your route if you get a crossing service (DACS) or information when airborne that they are closed (DAAIS). That's a process in place for the safety of all.


I still do not believe that it is not possible to have the list that "is then fed into our information system and is available to view on all the AC workstations. " on line. It is by this stage in electronic format and so should be able to be transferred to a web site. I accept that the situation is tactical and that one can get upto date info on the radio but at the planning stage for flight safety, one should be able to access the info easily.

For safety and security reasons, operational systems (such as that described by Swanfis) are never connected to the Internet or public networks. The data is input in to a bespoke system, so any input required for public access would be a duplication of effort carried out on a public access system. I would put forward that it is not an Area Control Centre's job to put out briefings on airspace activities over which it has no control. It's job is to provide flight information to pilots in the air. The job could lie with AIS, but the NOTAM system they have to use to comply with their international and national commitments is not geared up for tactical changes with instantaneous lead in times. Any such system would be something which would have to be developed by them and put forward as a UK difference from ICAO.

The French NOTAMs appear because they treat their airspace more akin to Managed Danger Areas whose actual activity is agreed on initially the day before activity and then amended as time goes on. The UK only has a small number of areas managed in the same way and you'll have to persuade the military authorities to change they way they operate if you want it to be a blanket method of operation.

In the meantime, check the AIP for published times, check the NOTAMs for any amendments to published times, and then call someone by phone prior to departure or when airborne for more up to date info.

[englishal]

D026,031 and 036.
To check I rang the number dor thes DA's in the AIP Plymouth Ops. The answer- a pre-recorded "I am sorry there is no one to take your call".
Often if there is no one there you get transferred to Boscombe...or at least I have.

Bournemouth ATC will have info on D026, D031...In fact their ATIS broadcasts when D026 is active (usually?). Could give them a call and ask if you're planning for pre-flight purposes (01202 364150). You can also call their recorded ATIS on 01202 364151....

[IO540]

The problem is there are so many different numbers to remember...

It's much easier to just fly around them and then one can forget about whether they are active or not.

As we are all aware we live in troubled times and DAs can be bought into life at very short noticeNot sure that terrorism has anything to do with DA activity. Do terrorists only operate in danger areas? As far as I can see, most DAs are things like army training areas (which are inactive perhaps 75% of the time), explosive testing areas (which are inactive perhaps 99% of the time), military flying areas (over the sea e.g. D037, inactive perhaps 95% of the time). And there are loads of DAs which are IMHO irrelevant to GA eg. the Herstmonceaux "laser site".

The real problem is the way in which different enterprises play in these areas and there is no central planning / notification system for their activity. I am also pretty sure that the DAs are jealously guarded by those with the right of usage and - as with annual departmental budgets - one will never want to lose an entitlement even if it didn't get used very much.

France is better but not much better because most of them still cannot be checked with phone calls. One has to make an airborne call on the radio e.g. with Brest Info when on the way over there.

As always, the locals are OK with it because they know the numbers to call, and most "locals" fly only locally...

[SwanFIS]

"Do terrorists....operate in danger areas?"...erm no, but the people who protect us do.:ugh:

Edit - Beerdrinker you have now got me worried, you said "...... AIS Narrow Route Brief at 1020Z today showed NIL VFR notams for the London FIR up to FL 050. So I assume the 3 DA's I plan to cross are cold - D026,031 and 036." These DAs like the others in the Channel and many, many more in the UK have scheduled, published hours of activity.

UK AIP ENR 5 - Navigation Warnings

NATS | AIS - Home (http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/public/index.php%3Foption=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=4&Itemid=11.html)

[Widger]

Read this! (http://www.airspacesafety.com/downloads/How_to_get_across_the_English_Channel.pdf)