Which GPS??

[Blue Albatross]

Hi Everyone,

I was wondering if I could get your opinions and help me make up my mind. I am the proud new owner of my very first airplane, and aswell as the new Mode S Tx that I'll need to kit out my new baby with, I was also thinking of buying a GPS unit.

The thing is that there are so many available on the market, so it's difficult to make up my mind. At the moment I am toying with either the Garmin 496 or the Skymap IIIC.

Can anyone suggest some other models that they perhaps use and help me figure out the merits of one over the other?

Many thanks

[Pilotdom]

Go for the 495 and no I dont mean 496, its the same unit without the road maps. Save yourself some cash, job done.

https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?pID=14751

[Mark 1]

The Garmins are very nice units and I have no hesitation in recommending them.
But you may need to consider a few things:

Can I mount it such that it doesn't interfere with control movement or instrument scan?
Can I use on-board electrical power or do I need to consider the battery autonomy?
Can I mount it such that the aerial has a good view of the sky (and preferably is shielded from the ground)?
Is the display bright enough and big enough to be easily read in the proposed location?

All these factors could affect your choice.
If possible, borrow some examples of the models on your short list and give them a practical trial.

[IO540]

Most people choose the 296 or 496/495 because Garmin already own all of aviation and will very soon own the entire world.

I have the 496 yoke-mounted (for its TAWS feature) and it is OK but the screen is small.

I also have the KMD550 MFD which is identical to a Skymap III in its map presentation and I find that much better than the Garmin. However the Skymap III has no batteries.

An absolutely key feature of a GPS is a large moving map because that is where your situational awarenes comes from.

Therefore, I would have a very good look at the Avmap EKP IV. I have not flown with it but the map beats anything else currently out.

Contrary to what many people say, especially the anti-GPS crowd, one does not interact all that much with the GPS during flight. The route is programmed in at the start and one flies the plane as normal (maintaining a heading) while tracking the magenta line. One doesn't sit there head down pressing buttons etc. And the bigger the moving map is, the more brief the interaction is because you get the essential info on a plate.

[Cricket23]

I'd certainly agree with IO540 on the screen size / situational awareness. I bought a 96C, which is a noce unit (on the ground - note), but a pain the the rear to use in the air. Subsequently, I bought a 296 and it sits on top of the panel with it's nice big(ish) screen. Easy to work out what it's telling me and therefore only a quick glance now and again before looking out of the window again.

C23

[wsmempson]

I too reckon that although the screen is a little small, the Garmin 296/496 family of gps's are really terrific. Whichever you buy, you may care to get one of these to mount it

G-Force Mount (http://www.gforcemount.com/GF1.htm)

They come either as a permanent fixing (for which you will need the owner of the a/c's permission and a mod from the CAA) or with a sucker pad. The sucker pad is so effective that you can tow the a/c with it (we tried with it near the centre of the prop...) and is a darned sight more effective than the yoke mount which Garmin sell.

Whatever the legalities of GPS usage in this country, the broad distinction between the 2 and the 4 is that the 296 comes with most of the info that you need for VFR flight and the 495 comes with what you need for IFR, as well as airfield info etc. The 496 has the road database too.

As IO540 rightly says, these aren't devices which you stare at all flight long - they are a very sophisticated navigational aid which I, for one, am very grateful for.

I haven't much experience with other brands so, as ever, opinions on this subject are a bit like ar*%4oles - everyone has one.

Suffice to say that Garmin's after-sales care has, in my instance, been impeccable (replaced my 296 without a murmer which, well out of warrantee, went tech after hard use) and this alone buys my vote. Oh, Harry Mendelsohnns were great too.....:ok:

[tangovictor]

I have a 296, there's free updates available to bring it up to almost 496 spec
saving a lot of cash, however if screen size is important, ( my 296 is sometimes difficult to read ) I'd take a look at -
Moving Terrain Air Navigation Systems AG (http://www.moving-terrain.com)

[ppharv]

So if you purchased a 296, whats the main differences from that and the 496? What bits can you download for free to get it similar to the 496?

I'm not bothered about the road maps which I understand the 496 does out the box.

[silvereagle]

I have had a hand held GPS since 1999. My first was a Garmin GPS Pilot 3 which was excellent. I then got a 296 which was a 'giant leap for mankind'. I found the 296 to be user friendly, simple and robust. I have also used the Skymap 3 which is somewhat dated. OK but the graphics are not brilliant.

I am also lucky enough to fly a Garmin 530/430 equipped aircraft commercially and as you would expect they are awesome. Watching a hold or an ILS happening on autopilot is just great. But you really don't need the extras that the 530 provides.

Also, I am not convinced that you need to go for a 496 or a 495. The 495/6 has many features which can only be accessed in the US. The list of UK VRPs which is a major factor for buying a 496, is available on the web to download. VFR Waypoint Add-Ons (http://www.pipercub.flyer.co.uk/id45.htm). Don't be afraid of downloading this, it is really simple. Just install the Garmin disc which comes with the 296 and follow the instructions. It is easy to delete the VRPs (in the Orkneys for example!) you don't want. The website also has all the UK DZs, glider sites, HLSs etc.

I have used a 296 for some 1000hrs now and would advise anyone to go for it, ahead of any other GPS.

[drambuster]

You really should go for the 495 (don't bother with 496) for the following reasons:

1) it updates the GPS signal 5 times per second which makes the turn co-ordinator on the panel page perfectly useable in an emergency (such as horizon failure in IMC)

2) It has Visual Reporting Points in the database. Absolutely essential if you haven't been able to pre-plan with Bottlang or whatever (I had to divert into Elstree a while back and was told to report at the "golf course" - of course when you look around in that area all you can see are frigging golf courses !! )With the 495 just hit the 'Nearest' button and then go direct to the VRP which will be listed at the top (or near top)

3) The 495/6 have 'Obstacles' in the database. Again, a brilliant feature well worth the money.

Drambuster

[Big Pistons Forever]

I am looking at buying a GARMIN unit. Anyone used both the 296 and the 495.
Is the extra perfomance of the 495 worth the extra cost over the 296 ?

[Sam Rutherford]

I went through this process 3 months - I settled for the Avmap EKP IV.

I also have it for my own plane, so it is only occasionally for use in another aircraft. This means that compactness/portability is less important.

The screen is awesome, big, clear, perfect.

I have no regrets whatsoever.

Sam.

[bambuko]

I have been using Avmap EKP IV for a while and apart from rather clunky PC interface :ugh: using C-MAP's "PC Planner" and "suspect" battery life (doesn't really matter, since I am running it from the main battery anyway) it is great.
Mine is panel mounted, using Air Gizmo mount.
Dead easy to use (once you get used to quirky menu :rolleyes:)
and (stiil) the largest screen.
Chris

[tangovictor]

Piper Cub Flyer (http://www.pipercub.flyer.co.uk/index.htm)
you can add a whole lot of stuff, choose what you want
I think, the only diff 296 / 496 that you can't update
is the airfield taxi ways, which I believe isn't available
in the UK anyway ? ( just Europe )

[Ultranomad]

I second IO540's words about a large moving map. Garmin units are nice self-contained gizmos but their screens are way too small. My preference would be something like an IBM (Lenovo) X60 or X61 convertible notebook/tablet with Jeppesen Flitedeck and a GPS receiver-only unit attached. It can be used as a kneeboard or on a gooseneck stand.

[411A]

Well....if you might want to use the GPS unit for IFR ops in the future (provided of course the UKCAA ever gets off the dime and allows same for IFR approaches) you need a panel mount unit, approved for such ops.
The Bendix-King KLN89b and KLN94 are superb for this, and quite reasonably priced...especially used 89b's
Having used a King KLN 89b for over ten years in my private aeroplane, it has supplied very reliable and accurate service.

If you want to go used, JA Air Center in the USA has KLN89b's (and a few KLN94's avialable from time to time, fully serviced and yellow tagged, and...the price is right.

J.A. Air Center - DuPage Airport - West Chicago, IL (http://www.jaair.com/)

[IO540]

I have been using Avmap EKP IV for a while and apart from rather clunky PC interface :ugh: using C-MAP's "PC Planner"C-Map, who either own or are somehow connected with Avmap, are a useless outfit which rarely replies to any questions. This is Avmap's weak link. In the USA, somebody set up the whole distribution/support network so the Italians don't have to deal with customers :)

Have you tried loading routes into the Avmap from either Navbox Pro, or from Jepp's Flitestar?


My preference would be something like an IBM (Lenovo) X60 or X61 convertible notebook/tablet with Jeppesen Flitedeck and a GPS receiver-only unit attached. It can be used as a kneeboard or on a gooseneck stand.I would agree, for very easy VFR. I use a Motion LS800 tablet for this, running various VFR charts which can be "found" in various places ;) That way you get the real printed charts running as a GPS moving map. The ultimate for VFR. But this can be pricey and is not for everybody as it isn't exactly compact.

The Bendix-King KLN89b and KLN94 are superb for this, and quite reasonably priced...especially used 89b's
Having used a King KLN 89b for over ten years in my private aeroplane, it has supplied very reliable and accurate service.I have been flying behind a KLN94 for 6 years and agree; a super simple to use unit which does exactly what one needs for airways stuff. However its moving map screen is really tiny and virtually useless. I have a KMD550 MFD for that. Also the KLN94 never supported RNAV SIDs/STARs or PRNAV and never will - I have this in writing from Honeywell. This means that while it is fine for an IFR panel mount (real IFR flight is much simpler than all the regs coming out of Eurocontrol...) I wouldn't spend a huge amount of money putting one of these into the panel. IMHO, for a panel mount GPS, the KMD150 is the best - basically a panel mount version of the Skymap III.

[Ultranomad]

I would agree, for very easy VFR. I use a Motion LS800 tablet for this, running various VFR charts which can be "found" in various places That way you get the real printed charts running as a GPS moving map. The ultimate for VFR. But this can be pricey and is not for everybody as it isn't exactly compact.
Not just for VFR - Flitedeck gives you all the approach plates and whatnot... and the price nowadays is roughly comparable to a Garmin of the same vintage, whether you compare new to new or used to used.

[IO540]

Yes I have used Flitedeck. It gives you Jepp's fairly primitive enroute charts, approach plates, but the SID/STARs are not georeferenced so running them under FD is of no use.

For IFR (airways) one uses the more normal kit (GPS and ILS etc) for nav. IMHO, FD is good for passenger use, to see how well or badly the pilot is doing on the IAP :)

The old Jepp FliteMap product was good - that would run all the Flitestar chart representations, plus the VFR Raster Charts. They discontinued FM around 2005.

[PompeyPaul]

I was wondering if I could get your opinions and help me make up my mind. I am the proud new owner of my very first airplane, and aswell as the new Mode S Tx that I'll need to kit out my new baby with, I was also thinking of buying a GPS unit.

Ooohhhh can I come and fly it ? :ok:

[Ultranomad]

The old Jepp FliteMap product was good - that would run all the Flitestar chart representations, plus the VFR Raster Charts. They discontinued FM around 2005.
You are right, FliteMap will definitely be a good option. Moreover, as far as I could see on Jeppesen's web site 5 minutes ago, it is still very much alive and in production.

[Julian]

C-Map, who either own or are somehow connected with Avmap, are a useless outfit which rarely replies to any questions. This is Avmap's weak link. In the USA, somebody set up the whole distribution/support network so the Italians don't have to deal with customers

THats true! I dealt direct with them in the US when I bought mine, got the unit, both the US & UK databases, software and battery pack & charger and still cost less than if I had bought from the Italians!

J.

[englishal]

I'm very happy with my G496. The 495 wasn't about when I got it, otherwise I'd have got the 495 as I have never used the "car" or "boat" functions.

Great unit, great capabilities, and we have it "panel mounted" using an Air Gizmo thingy with external hull mounted antenna. I've also wired it into the intercom so the speach gets relayed into the headsets - there are speach warnings you can set up, like off course, terrain, altitude etc. The VRP dB is very useful too.....

[igarratt]

495 :ok:

Used number of built in Garmin units, non a patch on the 495, 496 more money, able to use in car, but then there are far better smaller dedicated unit for cars... save the money.

Lowest price is 750 but that's from the states, I got mine 850 from Adam at flyingshop.com also mendelssohn pilot supplies also have it for 799 +vat

Its like the 495 is designed for VFR, the update is far better and the detail on the maps is better than a 500 map !

The mapsource software is 6/10 at best, better option is to get memory map. Memory map now have 2 x 500 UK CAA charts and 4 250 charts, it can then talk directly to you GPS via USB and overlay your routes and tracks !

The deal clinchers on the 495 are:
Full VRP's
Low level routes
Road name mapping (even on 495)
Names, Lakes, town, cities, AD entry/exit points,
airspace warning for A/W, ATZ's, MATZ, TMA, CTR, vfr recommended
Danger/rest/prob.
Terrain alerts,
4 hour battery life,
on screen route planning
active height based declutter
ILS routes per airport, airport, runway, circuit, atc, heights, elev
Add new vrp/waypoints
All NDB VOR beacons
Route planning, ETA, ETE, FUEL, Dist, Track,

Included in pack 1 map update, yoke mount, external Aeriel, cig lighter power cable, mains cable, 2 usb cables, surface mount.

I particularly like to come back and down load the track, over lay it on to caa500 and see where I went vs was initially planned.
I fly around manchester liverpool so the info on multi level controlled airspace is very useful, we can get up to vertical 5 different classifications of airspace and it handles it fine !
Then there is the instrument display and the data screen, TAS, M hdg, Alt etc but this along with the talking information not used yet.

Only thing missing so far are aerodrome opening hours, PPR and phone number.
Despite it's perfect performance I'd still never fly any distance with out the trusty map, pencil and stopwatch though !:rolleyes:

Ian

[Rans Flyer]

If you download the VRP's the only real difference between the 296 and 495 is the 495 has a faster screen refresh and has selectable airspace based on altitude.
The 496 has the crappy (if you have used something like tom-tom) road navigation as standard. But this can also be added to the 296 if required.

You can pick up a 296 for less than £500 on ebay.

Ex Rans Flyer (http://www.flightforlife.co.uk/JABIRU.jpg)
Web Site: Flight For Life (http://www.FlightForLife.co.uk)

[jollyrog]

I've just bought a 496 and will hopefully be giving it its first outing on Sunday.

I'd like to connect the audio outputs to the intercom. Has anyone seen/used a decent MIC splitter adaptor/cable so that I can send a feed over to the RHS intercom position, with a RHS headset also in use?

Thanks.

[IO540]

Jollyrog you have a PM.

I mounted a 496 in my TB20 yoke, and connected its audio output to a spare intercom input, and if the AUX button is pressed (which it always is) I get audio terrain warnings.

These warnings are one major difference between the 496 and the 296, but Garmin have gone to a great length to make the differences hard to establish, to prop up the sizeable price difference between the two.

[PH-UKU]

Avmap EKP-IV ? .. avoid it like the plague .. I had 3 different units crash on me in under a year. Customer support in Europe is $hite (total $hite). Big pretty screen, lot of potential but ... not worth the money (over £1000).

Garmin 496 - screenshots look pretty in print, but try one for real in daylight first ....

I use this - Lowrance 200C (http://www.lowrance.com/en/Products/Aviation/AirMap-2000C/) .. and love it. Big brigght display, and good terrain.

[Rans Flyer]

I had a Lowrance 600c.
Screen was poor in sunlight and it didn't display MATZ or ATZ.
Does the 200 display MATZ etc?

Now the Garmin 96c on the other hand was a great little GPS, small robust, lasted 40h on 2xAA's and the screen got better in direct light. Shame Garmin doesn't use the same type of LCD in the 2/496 series.


Ex Rans Flyer (http://www.flightforlife.co.uk/JABIRU.jpg)
Flight For Life (http://www.FlightForLife.co.uk)

[IO540]

I heard the bad comments about the Avmap too. I actually spent months trying to contact the manufacturer, with extremely limited success.

I was after a "VFR GPS" to use as a backup for all my other (panel mounted) stuff, but in the end I went for the LS800 tablet computer (out of manufacture now so should appear on Ebay at reasonable prices), a remotely mounted Emtac bluetooth GPS, and running Memory Map / Oziexplorer. The end result is arguably better than any portable GPS currently on the market - you get a perfectly readable version of the actual printed chart.

FliteMap still appears supported by Jepp (with website updates) and anyway it is merely FliteStar with NMEA GPS input, but I don't think you can buy it anymore. I was advised by Jepp in 2005 they stopped selling it. The reason was never given (and the decision did not make much sense) but I suspect they found a subtle bug in it. I was once flying off Greece, on the way to Crete, and found FM reporting me about 2nm off position. Reloading the program fixed the problem, but I never fully trusted it afterwards. Very shortly after that, Jepp posted a 9.15 update on their website. I never saw the problem again, but I have also not used FM as a moving map since about 2006. I use it for ground based IFR flight planning, on a laptop.

[jollyrog]

I still need to find a sensible way of connecting my 496 to the intercom, so if anybody has a solution, I'd be grateful.

Must be a plug/cable type solution, as anything hard-wired or permanent is not an option.

Thanks to IO540 for the PM, but not quite what I needed.