Not much yet, in Spanish

COLOMBIA: AVIÓN DE CARGA BOEING 747 SE ACCIDENTA A LAS AFUERAS DE BOGOTÁ


Lunes 07 de julio de 2008.- Madrid – Cundinamarca - Colombia.- Dos
personas muertas y 10 heridas deja como saldo hasta el momento, el
accidente de un avión de carga, que cayó a tierra cerca de Madrid,
Cundinamarca.

El coronel Fabio Castañeda, comandante de la Policía de Cundinamarca,
dijo a Caracol Radio que ya fueron rescatados con vida siete de los
tripulantes de la aeronave, un Boeing 747 – 200, que llevaba un
cargamento de flores a Miami.

El oficial sostuvo que se adelantan esfuerzos para recuperar a tres
personas que permanecen atrapadas en el fuselaje del avión.

El coronel Castañeda reportó que las dos personas muertas eran
campesinos que habitaban una casa en una zona rural, y a quienes les
cayó encima la aeronave.

Al parecer, los muertos son un hombre de 38 años y un menor de edad de 12 años.

Según la información entregada por la Policía de Cundinamarca, dos de
los heridos están siendo atendidos en el hospital de Madrid, y los
restantes están siendo evacuados en un helicóptero hacia el hospital
de la Policía en Bogotá

If anyone can translate prior message and post, there are those that would be in you debt.

COLOMBIA: TRANSPORT AIRPLANE BOEING 747 IS INJURED TO THE OUTSKIRTS OF BOGOTA Monday 07 of 2008 July. - Madrid - Cundinamarca - Colombia. - Two hurt dead people and 10 leave as balance until the moment, accident of a transport airplane, that fell to earth near Madrid, Cundinamarca. Colonel Fabio Chestnut grove, commander of the Police of Cundinamarca, he said to Caracol Radio that already was rescued with life seven of crew of the airship, a Boeing 747 - 200, that took shipment of flowers to Miami. The official maintained that efforts go ahead to recover to three people who remain catched in the fuselage of the airplane. Colonel Castañeda reported that the two dead people were farmers who inhabited a house in a countryside, and to those who them the airship fell above. Apparently, the deads are a man of 38 years and a junior of 12 years. According to the information given by the Police of Cundinamarca, two of the wounded are being taken care of in the hospital of Madrid, and rest are being evacuated in a helicopter towards the hospital of the Police in Bogota

para ellos que no hablan castellano:

Monday 7 July - Madrid, Colombia, Two dead and ten injured so far confirmed as a result of an accident involving a 747 cargo plane, which crashed near Cuindinamarca.

The colonel in charge of the local police at Cuindinamarca said that they were able to rescue seven survivors from the crew, which was carrying a load of flowers to Miami.

The official claimed that they were still trying to rescue three others trapped inside the wreck.

The colonel reported that two of the dead were villagers who lived in a house destroyed by the aeroplane. It seems that they are a man of 38 years and a child of 12.

According to further information provided by the police, two of the injured are being treated in the local hospital in Madrid, while the others were evacuated by helicopter to Bogota.

This is a free internet translation, some help.

Monday July 07, 2008.- Madrid – Cundinamarca - Colombia.- Two dead people and 10 injuries leaves as balance up
to now, the accident of a freight plane, that fell to land near Madrid, Cundinamarca.
The colonel Fabio Castañeda, commander of the Police of Cundinamarca, Conch Radio told that already were
rescued with life seven of the crew members of the airship, a Boeing 747 – 200, that carried a cargo of
flowers to Miami.
The official maintained that advance efforts to recover three people that remain trapped in the fuselage of
the airplane.
The colonel Castañeda reported that the two dead people were peasants that inhabited a house in a rural zone,
and to whom on top the airship fell them.
Apparently, the dead persons are a man of 38 years and an under age of 12 years.
According to the information delivered by the Police of Cundinamarca, two of the injured are being attended in
the hospital of Madrid, and the remainders are being evacuees in a helicopter toward the hospital of the
Police in Bogota

Centurion Air Cargo
CWC 164
scheduled as a 747-200F (probably ACMI from another carrier)
Reported as engine fire after T/O
/A

COLOMBIA: CARGO AIRCRAFT 747 HAS ACCIDENT IN THE OUTSKIRTS OF BOGOTA.

Monday 07/07/08 - Madrid-Cindinamarca-Colombia
Two people dead and 10 injured is the balance up to now from the accident
of a cargo plane that fell to the ground in Madrid, Cundinamarca.

Coronel Fabio Castaneda, Commander of the Cundinamarca Police told Caracol Radio that they have already rescued, alive, 7 of the crew of
a Boeing 747-200 that carried a cargo of flowers to Miami.

The official (commander) that they are making great effort in recovering
3 people still trapped inside the fuselage.

Coronel Castaneda reported that the two dead people were peasants living
in a house in the local rural area, on which the aircraft fell.

Apparently the dead are a 38y year old man and a 12 year old minor.

According to informatiuon given by the Cundinamarca Police, two of the injured are being treated at a Hospital in Madrid and the rest are being flown by helicopter to the Police Hospital in Bogota.

:ooh:

Somewhat strange perhaps?
A cargo 747 full of flowers with ten crew on board, seven rescued and three still trapped in the wreckage.
Not very pleasant though, especially for the poor family on the ground.:hmm:

Okay, without prejudice......

747 200 accident in the suburbs of Bogota.

Seven crew out alive so far.
Efforts continuing to rescue three still trapped in the wreckage.
Two killed, peasants (prob. literally, poor chaps). a 38 year old and a 12 year old who lived in the country, killed when the aircraft fell about their house.
According to police information, two of the wounded are being treated in Madrid Hospital while the rest are being taken by helicopter to the police hospital in Bogota.
That's all folks...:hmm:

Rumors are claiming it's a Kalitta a/c.

By all means correct me if I am wrong, but the pictures and video on CNN looked like a Kalitta paint job.

God bless.

Oh :mad:,

not again...... After the Brussels abort due to engine flames..

omewhat strange perhaps?
A cargo 747 full of flowers with ten crew on board, seven rescued and three still trapped in the wreckage.
Not very pleasant though, especially for the poor family on the ground.


Ten crew on board? Say again?

That's not what was said.

http://llnw.image.cbslocal.com/31/2008/07/07/320x240/jet.jpg

It was confirmed on another forum, that this was in fact a Kalitta 747 operating on behalf of Centurion Cargo. The feds are going to be all over Kalitta, after this incident, BRU and now BOG in just over a month, 2 hull losses:eek:

Agreed. Nothing but bad news around their house these days...

A Boeing 747 cargo airplane with destination Miami crashed into a farm just outside Bogotá Monday morning, leaving at least two people dead. Four crew members are still missing.

Source: Airplane crash kills at least two near Bogotá (http://colombiareports.com/2008/07/07/airplane-crash-kills-at-least-two-near-bogota/)

Connie Kalitta's son, Scott, died last week in a 'Funny Car' crash. Kalitta is not currently a name I'd currently associate with luck...

Jul 7, 2008 8:53 am US/Eastern Digg | Facebook | E-mail Close WindowE-mail This Page5 Reported Dead In Crash Of Miami-Bound Cargo Jet
5 Reported Dead In Crash Of Miami-Bound Cargo Jet
BOGOTA, COLOMBIA (CBS4) ― A Miami-bound cargo jet crashed early Monday shortly after takeoff from Bogota airport in Colombia, killing 2 people on the ground. Colombian TV network RCN is reporting 3 members of the US based crew of 8 died in the crash.

The plane was chartered by Miami-based Centurion Air Cargo, which operates a large cargo operation at Miami International Airport. Kalitta Air, based in Ypsilanti, Michigan, operated the plane.

Brian Andrews, a former CBS4 reporter now working for RCN, reports the plane left Bogota about 4 a.m., and apparently developed problems near the town of Mosquera, about an hour and a half from the Colombian capital.

Colombian website eltiempo.com is reporting the plane hit a farmhouse in the small town of Casablanca, spreading debris over a wide area an apparently killing a farmer and his son who were asleep when the plane crashed..

The plane is believed to have been carrying a crew of 8, including 7 Americans. The surviving crew members have been taken to the Santa Matilda de Madrid hospital in Madrid, the nearest large city.

Centrurion Air Cargo operates a 600 thousand square foot cargo center at Miami International Airport, and earlier this year announced expansion plans.

The cause of the crash is under investigation.

Wow, another Kalitta bird! This in not good news at all!! Is it time to start looking at shorter periods between maintenance checks for these older birds??

Condolences to all those injured and families of the deceased!

Is it time to start looking at shorter periods between maintenance checks for these older birds??

Or perhaps the maintenance procedures of certain airlines?

Always a good idea to await investigation results to pinpoint cause then it can be determined how this a/c was maintained compared say to the BRU a/c of the same operating company.

Precisely, while Kalitta are known for excellent maintenance procedures, it just seems that there have been a high number of crashes in general this year, many involving older aircraft. While a company's maintenance program may be 100% perfect, if the FAA guidelines simply are'nt stringent enough then it is a whole new problem which i am sure is not easy to resolve.

Who in the F#$k said it has anything to do with Maintenance procedures? For all we know it could have been a missle, a bomb, drugs gone bad.:ugh:
Why can't we just be happy their were survivors and wait for the investigation to complete instead of speculating the MX procedures on older aircraft. My entire 27 years of flying was on old from the DC-6 to the 747 classic. Sh*t happens...deal with it !:E

No comment apart from the condolences.
This link was placed in the US Air Thread, but contains some info

JACDEC - Current News (http://www.jacdec.de/news/news.htm)

same source giving registration as N714CK, a 1981 model

747 freighter crashes in Colombia - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/americas/07/07/colombia.crash.ap/index.html)

Here is another picture

http://colombiareports.com/pics/2008/07/crash_bogota.jpg

Source: Airplane crash kills at least two near Bogotá (http://colombiareports.com/2008/07/07/airplane-crash-kills-at-least-two-near-bogota/)

I knew that the possibility of maintenance will come up. Before I get shot and killed by the pprune police (No not the moderators) I want to say that I am in no way trying to guess the reason or reasons leading to or contributing to this accident. I am more than happy to wait for a report. However I would like to comment maintenance in general.

Airlines are forced to comply by rules and regulations set forth by the manufacturer of the aircraft, component or part or their respective CAA/FAA. Many companies find it cheaper in the short term to reduce the maintenance burden by performing the absolute minimum required to keep an aircraft flying. The older the aircraft more maintenance is needed to keep it in the air. Not just any kind of maintenance but a specific type that seems to be done less and less: Preventive Maintenance and associated Trend Monitoring.

Trend monitoring of individual components such as an engine will show the deterioration of performance and should prompt an engine change before a catastophic failure occurs. Many companies will tend to fly their engines to TBO limit or until the performance reaches unacceptable values. This saves money in the short term but how about in the long term?

An engine failure in one of the more obscure places in the world requiring a landing back an engine change and the downtime with a possible charter to move the time critical cargo can run into the millions. What is the cost of having engineers work on aircraft during the downtime and perform old fashioned preventive maintenance, certainly less than the scenario above. The older and the more complex or the larger the aircraft is, the more care it requires. This places a huge burden on shoestring operations where cost of operating the aircraft and revenue are virtually the same. One factor in the equation increases and the company will start to lose money. Solution is to save somewhere else. While the savings make perfect sense to the book keepers operationally they might be totally wrong.

MEL has become the Holy cow of an operation. One needs to ask several questions before accepting an aircraft with deferred maintenance items DMI or equivalent. Is it OK by MEL to go? Is it smart even if the MEL allows to go and how do multiple DMI's interact and affect the aircraft operation. One DMI item might be ok, but if you have several and it is still legal to go, operating according to normal procedures can become extremely difficult.

Again I must say that the above post does not judge or guess the reasons leading to the 2nd Kallitta accident rather is my 2 pence worth on the maintenance brought up by other contributors to this thread.

I would appreciate seeing a google earth (sic) type graphic of the runway vs the actual impact location.

I can't figure out phase of flight or expected power from the engines without a little bit more information.

From FlightInternational:

PICTURES: Colombia crash destroys second Kalitta 747F in two months (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/07/07/225126/pictures-colombia-crash-destroys-second-kalitta-747f-in-two-months.html)

It is amazing that anybody in the aircraft survived that!!.
Looking at the camera panning the scene (in the CNN vid.) the debris is spread out along a pretty long path, obviously (to me) that helped dissipate the energy.
An aerial shot would be informative.
f

Quality Maintenance is it's own reward. The opposite is also true.

Lomapaseo,
Just had a quick look at the satellite map for SKBO/BOG:

Wikimapia - Let's describe the whole world! (http://www.wikimapia.org/#lat=4.701389&lon=-74.146944&spnx=0.03&spny=0.03&m=s)
(most of the others are cloud-obscured!)

If you use the search function (top right), the town/area of Madrid is about 14kms (roughly) west of the airport (there appears to be a military airfield there - crew may have attempted emer. landing there?). Presumably departure from one of the 31s.

When I checked Google-Earth, Madrid in colombia is more like South-South-West of Bogota, not west..........
Is that the place?

I think so; you're talking about the city of Bogota; I'm talking about the airport.

Colombian media talks of the aircraft coming down near a place called Mosquera, which is very close to Madrid.

Ok, Mosquera is more or less on a right-base-leg for the airport, landing 13L or R.
Madrid is much further distance to the south-south-west

If you look in Google Earth, Mosquera is about 2.5 miles and slightly left of the departure end of Rwy 31L. Those old 747 classics are typically operated by these outfits on the very ragged edge of the performance envelope. Having to max perform the aircraft, old airplanes, and engines that are are subjected to a high percentage of max power takeoffs, tempts fate. Not at all uncommon for the EGTs to go yellow or even red on takeoffs out of Bogota.

Sad to say, but the FAA just isn't real interested, for whatever reason, in the bottom feeder freight operators. It'd be real interesting to see what an real and comprehensive investigation by an outside objective panel of experts of maintenance practices of the bottom-feeder freight outfits would turn out.

It will be real interesting on how the Colombians handle this investigation. The last big 747 accident was the Tradewinds runway departure in MDE, I think. However, no one was killed or seriously injured in that one.

I've often flown the Zipaquira departure from BOG to the North, looking down and thinking where to go if we'd lose an engine in the climb. Glad we never did.

BOG is a tough spot; it lies at 8400', and is pretty much surrounded by mountains. The SID's are rather involved, and the required climb gradients quite steep. An engine out there would be a handfull with a heavy airplane. Towards ZIP there is upsloping terrain until some 50 miles from the airport, to over 12500' elevations if I remember correctly. The engine out procedure there doesn't end when you're clean.

But perhaps they didn't get that far, as the crash site is just a few miles west of the airport.

Most likely they were relatively heavy, as a full load of flowers will max out the zero fuel weight of a 747. MIA is some 4 hrs away, requiring more than a light fuel load. Performance-wise it would have been very tight, I know our departures usually were.

Glad to see the crew came out alive, sorry for those on the ground who didn't.

Hi,

Bad luck.
Will not speculate on this accident .. but will speculate about my next comment if in the two months forward a other plane of this company go badly on the ground ... my comments will not be "bad luck" anymore.

Regards.

Luck has little to do with aviation. Good maintenance, experience, and pilot skill does.

Suggest you make due allowances for the guy/s trying their best to help with quick translations. I read nothing there to CONFIRM that the 10 were all crew, or even on board - making allowances for, with respect, amateur translations, they could well have been people on the ground. Similarly the 3 "trapped on board" could well be people on the ground.

Whatever, please make allowances for (with all due respect) "non-qualified translators" trying their best to come up with info for us all.

Very best of luck to all living involved, condolences to those families with loved ones lost.

AES

ya fueron rescatados con vida siete de los
tripulantes de la aeronave

It does say they rescued "7 of the crew members". They don't give any other information about the other 3.

I am a native speaker, no amateur translator!

Regards.

Two fatal crashes south of the border in two days for Ypsilanti based freight operators...

It will be interesting to see how both those Kalitta crashes will come out of the reports. Sadly peple died this time. I am unsure whether any airline can survive 2 crashes less than 50 days apart. But whatever you say here, don´t say anything detrimental about really old airplanes in general, old 747s or Kalitta in particular or you will have SNS3Guppy all over you. :uhoh:

"...Die Besatzung des Jumbos habe überlebt, weil der Rumpfteil, in dem sie sich befanden, von den explodierenden Tanks abgerissen und mehr als 50 Meter weit weggeschleudert worden sei, sagte die Krankenschwester der kolumbianischen Luftwaffe, Laura Linares. Sie war eine der ersten am Unglücksort. ..."

"..."The crew of the Jumbo survived, because the part of the ac body in witch they where located was torn off by ( / from the part with) the exploding fueltank and skid more than 160 ft away." reported Laura Linares, a nurse of the Columbian Airforce and one of the first persons arriving at the accidents location."

Condolences to those families with loved ones lost.

Facts speak for themselves, 2 crashes in a short period of time. It would seem something is rotten in Denmark (or in this case Ypsilanti).

Very bad news for Kallita, but I don't think we should necessarily be looking at blaming the aircraft.There is a big experience gap out there, and the 747 can be an unforgiving aircraft if training and competance is not up to scratch. (30+years on 747s).

Kallita will probably survive if they stick to freight. Insurance will cover the aircraft, (unless they self insured the hulls), and there are plenty more out there looking for homes.

"Who in the F#$k said it has anything to do with Maintenance procedures? For all we know it could have been a missle, a bomb, drugs gone bad."

People already speculating about maintenance, older aircraft, etc, etc. What BS. But then, this wouldn't be PPRUNE, would it?

Who in the F#$k said it has anything to do with Maintenance procedures? For all we know it could have been a missle, a bomb, drugs gone bad."

It would not be the first aircraft blown out of the sky departing SKBO.

So why don't we all wait until they figure out what happened.

I have no recollection of previous aircraft being blown out of the sky at Bogota. When was that please?

I have no recollection of previous aircraft being blown out of the sky at Bogota. When was that please?


ASN Aircraft accident Boeing 727-21 HK-1803 Bogotá (http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19891127-0)

Just and only for the record

I was unaware of that. Thank you.

Ah.... why operate expensive 3 man -200's when you can have newer 400's?
Why try to sell a frame, wait for a buyer that will be hard to come by?

Times is rough....

If only there was a way to get insurance money from planes that have been lost.......

Quality Maintenance is it's own reward. The opposite is also true.


A little premature, don't you think? Presently there is no indication as to what may have occured, or why. A rather rash assumption on your part, but not the first you've made in quick succession here.

Facts speak for themselves, 2 crashes in a short period of time. It would seem something is rotten in Denmark (or in this case Ypsilanti).


What facts? You are aware of something here that no one else knows? From your commentary, that would appear highly unlikely.

I have no recollection of previous aircraft being blown out of the sky at Bogota. When was that please?


You're unaware of airplanes being shot down in Colombia? How can you be that unaware and then jump to conclusions as to what may have occured.

A number of aircraft have been shot down in Colombia, both from the ground (FARC) and from the air (air bridge denial program).

This is an unfortunate incident, facts for which are not yet in evidence.

Loss of life is tragic, regardless the cause. I will never understand why the media sensationalizes loss of life from aircraft accidents and why the public (pilots included) at large is so shocked when it happens. Worldwide over 3000 people a day are killed in automobile accidents.

I was unaware of having made any conclusions; only general statements. Perhaps someone on this board has a guilty conscience?

Time will tell and I will of course wait for the official determinations. My prayers go to the families of those unfortunates that have been injured and killed.

This is an unfortunate incident, facts for which are not yet in evidence.

Guppy,

This is clearly a full blown accident, not just an incident. Naturally, everyone will wait for more information to come out. We should realize, I think, that many of the commentators on pprune are not proffessionals and will make mistakes that we can politely correct if we know something different.

By the ferocity of your posts, one would suspect that you're sent here by the concerned company for damage control. :rolleyes:

Reports by the press are routinely used in court and in Congress. Many of them, as we know, turn out to have serious errors in them. But we now have a published report from cnn that an engine fire was declared by the crew.

CNN:

It was the second time in about six weeks that a Boeing 747 flown by Kalitta Air of Ypsilanti, Michigan, has crashed.

The plane's crew told air traffic controllers that one of the engines was on fire and radio contact was lost seconds later, said Donald Tascon, deputy director of Colombia's civil aviation agency, to RCN radio. The cause was under investigation.

747 freighter crashes in Colombia - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/americas/07/07/colombia.crash.ap/index.html)

IMHO, it is unreasonable for you to insist that nobody discuss reports in the media, and instead wait years for a gov accident report to come out. :oh:

Maybe it would help to start by specifying that that a post is purely hypothetical.

Sad month indeed.

It does sound like he's one of Connies "Shoe Shine" boys.

Having worked for that dirt bag operation flying the DC-8's and L-1011's many years ago. With Chief Pilot Jim McCormick at the helm. This accident should be no surprise to anyone familiar to Connie's operation.
This dirt bag operation has a long history of accidents and incidents involving the deaths of many pilots who flew for Connie. The deaths occurred in his Learjets.
The most appalling accident occurred in the early 1990's when Connie's whores (ie...Pilot's) crashed a DC-8 in Gitmo (Cuba) after being on duty for over 26 hours. The crew literally fell asleep as they were turning on a 90 degree final turn while landing to the east. You have to understand the difficult type of landing involved when landing at the Naval Air Station. The airplane cart-wheeled down the runway. The Captain was an Eastern Airlines scab who feared loosing his job (ie...being fired by Connie) if he refused the trip. The copilot had one of his legs amputated after the accident and the flight engineer suffered massive head injuries which resulted in permanent brain damage.
Connie asked the employees at the time to donate part of their salary to help support these pilots in receiving income while disabled. It was unbelievable- he didn't provide any support from his own pockets!
Later, they had a DC8 literally loose number #1 engine (fell-off) at 35,000 feet while flying over Denver, Colorado. Then we had the Connie B747 literally loose an engine (fall-off) after takeoff in Chicago (ORD) and fall into Lake Michigan.
Right now Connie Kalitta is calling his Congressman and Senator's from Michigan and threatening job losses in the state of Michigan if the FAA comes after his company in an attempt to shut him down. He's used this ploy for years every time the FED'S show up at his place of business. The politicans have always kept the FAA away.
His maintenance is some of the worst in the industry, with mechanic's who routinely pencil-whip write-up's.
The flight crew's are whore's who fly these broken airplanes for fear of loosing their dirt-bag jobs. They are bottom feeder's who couldn't get real jobs with real airlines.
Many of them don't have college degrees (for those you in Europe who don't know... this lack of a degree makes you ineligible for employment consideration with "real" passenger (ie...Delta) and cargo (ie...UPS/Fed Ex) airlines in America.
This accident in South America was a simple case of flying a broken airplane when it should'nt have been flown, and pushing the limits...well they lost. And I hope those scum bag pilot's spend many years in a Columbian jail - where they belong and deserve it. Hopefully the rest of those dirt bag pilots will realize it's not worth going to jail for Connie Kalitta.

Hence the username....

This dirt bag operation has a long history of accidents and incidents involving the deaths of many pilots who flew for Connie. The deaths occurred in his Learjets.


Connie Kalitta doesn't run the Learjets. Until very recently it was owned and run by his Son, Doug. The "dirt bag operation" isn't the same operation, you're confusing your companies, and you have no idea what you're talking about. As usual.

Pilots as "whores?" Piss in your own wheaties, this morning, did you?

As far as being Connie Kalitta's shoe shine boy...I've never met the man, don't know him personally, and in all liklihood, never will. I don't know him.

I do, however, know that accusations of maintenance issues regarding this specific incident (it's somewhat premature to call an "accident," as nothing is yet known) are foolishly misplaced. Nothing is known regarding what happened. The fools who begin braying at the moon and crying poor maintenance or pilot fatigue or whatever other possibility might be dreamed up here do so in absolute ignorance. If you have facts regarding this mishap which support your assertions, by all means lay them on the table. Otherwise, you only appear foolish.

IMHO, it is unreasonable for you to insist that nobody discuss reports in the media, and instead wait years for a gov accident report to come out.


In your "humble" opinion, did I say anything about nobody discussing popular media reports? I did not. Did I say anything about waiting years for a government accident report to come out? I did not.

However, stupid, wild speculation regarding facts not inevidence (poor maintenance, pilot fatigue, etc) are not based on media reports, not based on factual evidence, not based on anything but speculation, and contribute nothing. These sort of wild guesses only serve to cloud the issue and generate more rumors.

An aircraft has crashed. This much we know. Reports have been offered regarding possible occurences associated with the mishap. This much we know. That the reports are correct, we do not know. Therefore the media reports are not facts, but sketchy bits of preliminary information.

There exists a strong urge to run away with all kinds of tangent barkings and brayings about pilot whores and poor maintenance and rants that really have no basis here. This was not a Learjet. This was not an aircraft operated by a company that's no longer in business, and it was not into Gitmo. This was out of Colombia. It was only a few hours ago, and so far, we know nothing about what has occured. Perhaps it behooves those of us who elect to behave as adults to wait until we have some ground to stand upon before making statements on the subject

Connie's son was Scott. Scott was recently killed in a drag racing accident; my prayers to the family.

Doug is Connie's nephew; and I will add a fine man I have had the pleasure to meet.

People have been killed. An aircraft is destroyed. This is not an incident. It is not premature to call this an accident. This is not only an accident; it is a tragedy.

Ref: AngryBlackman post #60

Lol!

Wow Billy, looks like you've got your work cut out for you on this thread! :8

Good Luck!

Let me just cinch down my shoulder straps here........

"They are bottom feeder's who couldn't get real jobs with real airlines."


Angryblackman,

From what I hear you may be correct in what you say. Actually some of Kalitta's pilots were furloughees from major US airlines (mine), all who have college degrees, with one being part of the 747 crew in which the engine departed over Lake Michigan. Another had 4 engine shutdowns in the two years he was there.

Springer

Kalitta's operation is not so bad, all things considered.
However, when he acquired many of the BA -200 TriStars and converted 'em to freighters, things started to run downhill is a rather substantial way, in the maintenance department.
Why?
Quite simply, Connie would absolutely not listen to folks who knew better.
I asked him personally whether he intended to send any of his maintenance supervisors to RollsRoyce for training, his reply was "we have been maintaining JT3's here for a long time, a jet engine is a jet engine, my guys don''t need any training."

Big mistake, as he soon found out.

When you quote somebody, it is dishonest to mix a snippet of my quote with a line from someone else. Guppy, you are not giving proper attribution of quotes to proper posters.

It makes it appear, for example, that the same poster who made the comment about freedom of speech concerning media reports (me) is the same person who made the statement about "dirtbag operators" (angryblackman)

This is not the first time you've done this.

It makes me seriously wonder about your college education or at the very least your sincerity.

pac

If Kallitta doesn't warrant a very invasive investigation by the FEDs given two hull losses in such a short period of time with such a small fleet, I don't know what does.

However, the FAA has never shown much concern for scrutinizing the bottom-feeder freight outfits. As for the reasons, I could think of several.

"Ah.... why operate expensive 3 man -200's when you can have newer 400's?
Why try to sell a frame, wait for a buyer that will be hard to come by?"

Because it's cheaper to buy a Classic than a -400. I've heard Connie paid cash for all his Classics (he will have to finance the -400s he has coming.)

I doubt he's looking to sell.

The classics are junk at $130 oil. The only reason some are still flying is because the shippers are desperate for the capacity and are willing to foot the fuel bill. I think the hourly rate for a -200 is down close to $4000, probably less than that now. Maybe some others with more direct current info will have a more accurate figure.

It wouldn't be beyond belief to think that the ACMI carriers are skimping on mx in order to try and at least break even.

the loss of 2 hulls in a short time alone plus any claims from third parties
can weigh heavely on your ins. policies-even if governments pay for war risk

i should think willis/marsh et all do stand up and take notice of this.

its seems ck may have found themselves in a sim situation that happened to mk cargo

Whore...dirt bag...scum bag.., lots of big words there. What college did you go to in order to learn such refined literary skills? Any one else you would care to insult with your tact and non-judgemental approach to discussing an accident no on knows anything about yet? Why don't you let us all know who you fly your 474-400 for so we can avoid them like the plauge, because I sure don't want someone with your "anger management" issues behind the yoke of any plane I am flying in.

Patrick

Let me tell you something slick....Ive worked with the old AIA and Kalitta
since 1995...and your probably the guy the used to fly terre haute-toledo
and complain....well..yeah...but dont you dare for one minute...assume or
presume for a minute that you know...this company...yeah..AIA was a
madhouse..but this company has quality people...and dam good pilots...
just ask the guys.that flew for TWA, USAir...Northwest..yeah..they might have gone back for the pay..but they miss it....just about every one of them..and surprise surprise...not all of them went back...you become a better pilot at this company...as far as maintenence..slowly but surely...
its changing and for the better...we have some of the best ride on mechanics in the business..and those that dont make the grade or cant handle it...move on..probably to the outfit your working at........and we are tight....i wont dispute those instances...you mention.but dont dare...for one minute say ...scum bags? :mad::mad:.....show me a pilot who isnt.
Management..? sure..it could be better..scheduling..its improved..but we still have a dam good group of pilots..and that crew in bogota...knew there stuff...trust me i know them all....better than most..and not as good as others..but no superman among them.just very knowledgeable men...
sure we are bottom feeders..but dont forget one thing slick....we were doing a hell of a lot better than any swinging freight dog outfit in the business bar none..and for whatever we may think of that one eyed
...:mad:...., he knows the business and that airplane better than you ever will..... We might have been Con air ...once ..but its the crews and the people that come to the company that have changed its face....mark my words ...we will be back...and :mad::mad:

Yep,

Post #60 (angryblackman) sounds like somebody who got fired at CK. Lots of anger there. And there are errors in his post as well. The gitmo dc-8 accident, IIRC, had a base-turn white flashing beacon o.o.s. and the crew was wide awake throughout the approach. Tired, yes. Asleep, no. The last thing the engineer said as the PF overbanked inside way too short a final was "Oh man, we're never going to make this!"

That accident lead to revisions of supplemental duty time limits as I recall.

And the DC-8 engine separation over denver, if this was 1985/86, I was flying that night into stapleton and it was the most extreme rocky mountain turbulence anybody had ever seen. But I thought the engine did not fall off: it was just hanging by a thread. It was a UPS painted bird if I recall correctly (IIRC.) But it's unlikely that "angryman" is capable of calmly answering that. :rolleyes:

So Guppy's right, in that you can't take accidents from decades ago and lump them all together in this decade and imply that there is something wrong with the maintenance by itself. But the age of these things is a valid reason that the PIC should have full authority on how it is operated. We used to worry about these airframes being too old and "oil canning" at 4x,000 hrs. If you had told me that they would still be flying in 2008 I would have told you that you don't know what you're talking about. The 747 is in every way as great a machine as the DC-3 was in my opinion.

So I agree with 411A that Kallita is typical of small outfits just trying to get by. They should be given tax free status, and allowed to put that money into re-engining their fleet.

That's what I think.

Best Regards,

pac

It makes it appear, for example, that the same poster who made the comment about freedom of speech concerning media reports (me) is the same person who made the statement about "dirtbag operators" (angryblackman)


I quoted you separately for the same reason. Had I elected to include you both in the same quote, you would be correct...but you're not.

I'm not going to start an entirely separate post simply to address you, any more than I would walk out of the room and come back in again to reply to another person when you're both standing next to each other.

Seems angryblackman is no longer flying for any company if this post of his from the Canada forum is to be believed.

Quote from angryblackman:

I don't have a problem with Transport Canada!
Of course, I'm a senior inspector at Transport Canada who will secure his government pension and enjoy his well deserved retirement soon.
I really don't understand what all the fuss is about...HEY!!!!

If nothing else us lucky Canadians have a real smooth talker in our regulator. :E

Yeah Chuck,

But there's no history on his alter ego sinkrate47 since it only has 2 posts!

Why some posters feel they have to invent "sock puppets" to support themselves or quote people dishonestly without attribute and in association with other's verb-age is beyond me. :rolleyes:

Back to the topic. The 747-200, in the 80's had a known habit of producing occasional false fire warnings. The procedure, of course, was to pull the power back on that thrust lever hoping the reduced thrust/bleed would reduce pressure/temp in the cowling "fire loops" if that was indeed the problem. If that worked and the fire light went out, a return to airfield was in order. An engine inspection and test runs would be performed. If nothing turned up in the way of a culprit, things would progress to considering a sensor system fault. The way to keep the airplane flying was to "re-rack" the firecards above and behind the engineer's circuit breaker wall on the way to the right UL service door. The aircraft would be signed off as ground checks O.K. and off you go. But the problem could recur; it was a gamble. A persistent history of write ups could go on like this for several days until mtc finally changed enough components to rectify the problem.

This is not to suggest that's what happened in Columbia. Investigators will have to secure copies of the logbook pages that mtc is required by FAA to keep on file. If they are missing then, you have a real case for something fishy going on. Whoot Gibson's log pages were not found for years. :ouch:

Engine fire after take off - Hmmmm, maybe time to re-evaluate the BRU crews actions?

Was the gear down?

Is the engine fire report

from an unsubtantiated ground wintness?

A radio call from the aircraft?

Post event crew interview?

I think the engine out performance charts need to be redone. As I said on the Brussels thread, I believe you don't get the advertised climb performance on old, bent airplanes with old engines. Just look up at V1 and ask yourself if you could stop. I think you're usually a lot further down the runway than you should be. The performance shortfall carries into the climb.

The answer is reducing weight capability and redoing the charts.

While I currently fly for a legacy carrier, I have flown a lot of night freight and international cargo. If there were a pilot olympics, I'd be betting on the freight dogs, Mr. Angry. My experience has been they are generally good pilots, able to adapt to unpredictable challenges, and a lot of fun to be around. Your characterizations are way off the mark as well as offensive.

I'm pulling for Connie and company during these unprecedented tough times.

If there were a pilot olympics, I'd be betting on the freight dogs, Mr. Angry.

I agree. I cut my teeth at Gemini. My current compadres (FDX) would faint if asked to do some of the stuff we used to do....

Angryblackman has posted a few 'different' comments over the last few days, in particular on the BA dep thread asking pretty bluntly about the number of black pilots and Captains employed by BA.
Given the astonishing use of language and personal attacks that he has made on this thread I am struggling to believe that he holds down the position that he claims he does. I certainly hope not. I would recommend that his comments are viewed with caution.

Miami-bound jet crashes in Colombia - 07/08/2008 - MiamiHerald.com (http://www.miamiherald.com/news/americas/story/597006.html)

Interestingly there has never been any reference or acknowledgement on the Kalitta´s website (Welcome To Kalitta Air (http://www.kalittaair.com)) to either accident. No press report or any attempt at PR or what have you. No acknowledgement that their airplane killed people.
The accident aircraft (N714CK) is still in the fleet list, took them days to remove N704CK the last time.

Stick your head in the sand and keep it there... :ugh:

Pprune mods, shut this thread down! The subject line has nothing to do with the content after page two or three.

Respect beholds respect, and I see none here.

Let us wait for the experts to finish their investigation and report.

God Bless those poor soles, may the father and his son find peace in heaven.

I'll second that, mustangsally. This thread has degenerated past the acceptable point.

I disagree. It's a good thread and interesting to me.

If you don't like it Mustang/Unconcerned, just don't click on it. Simple.

I third the proposal and back Mustang & Un concerned.....the thread went way off down the highway to nowhere very quickly. Close it. Its very disrepectful to lay into K4 less than 24 hrs after the accident that killed people on the ground and injured the crew. This thread smells like vultures all gathering around. Not what I expect on this forum.

Thanks for letting me rant. I`m off to Freight Dogs where I belong.

Re-visit my post #16Or do a search for posts by Mr. Fyne on the subject of "speculation" :rolleyes: .

If you don't like it Mustang/Unconcerned, just don't click on it. Simple.
You normally talk good sense BenThere but I must disagree here. Where is the value in reading post after post slagging off an operator in particular and class of carrier in general with no concrete evidence of improper behavior?

History has proved that even the big boys cut corners at times and too many people are being too fast to put the boot in as far as I'm concerned. Cut out the vilification, stick to the facts and carry on. If not, it's time to close.

All,

It gets a little more personal when you start hearing some names of those involved. I have shared the same cockpit with these guys and they are professionals working under difficult conditions.

I wish them a speedy recovery!

Thanks for the compliment, Unconcerned. I think we're on the same side of this debate.

Because one poster inserts a poorly/non-thought out position isn't reason enough to shut down the entire discussion.

I'm certainly not slagging off on Kalitta Air or its crews. In fact I highly respect the job they do flying long hours in old airplanes to strange places. In fact, to me they are at the pinnacle of aviation today, while the rest of us can fall back on autoland and the APPR PB.

My fondest wish is that Kalitta, the company, and Kalitta, the crews come out of this with heads held high and the determination to make the international cargo world as safe as it can possibly be.

McClatchy-Tribune
Published: July 7, 2008
BOGOTA, Colombia - A Valrico man was one of three South Florida crewmen who survived a Miami-bound cargo jet crash outside the Colombian capital early Monday that killed two people on the ground and injured five others onboard.
The crew of the Boeing 747-200 Kalitta Air jet reported a fire in one the plane's turbines two minutes after taking off from Bogota's El Dorado Airport at 3:50 a.m, said Martin Gonzalez, spokesman for Colombia's Civil Aviation Authority.
As they turned back toward the runway, the plane crashed into a wide grassy field near the town of Madrid and plowed into a small wooden home where two people — Pedro and Edwin Suarez — were killed. A third person who was sleeping in the house was treated for serious injuries in a nearby hospital.
The crew members were identified by Ypsilanti, Mich.-based Kalitta as U.S. citizens Joseph Kendall, 59, of Valrico; Steve Szynkowski, 28, McDonough, Ga.; Richard Dunlap, 65, Marietta, Ga.; Mohamed Shah, Coral Springs, 30; Bryant Beebe, 51, Big Pine Key.; Ivan Dankha, 49, Surprise, Ariz.; and Frank Holley, 45, Milton, as well as Dominican national Jimmy Herrera, 45, Miami.
Kendall suffered serious head wounds and internal injuries and underwent surgery, according to Nader Lujan, the director of the police hospital where six of the crew members were taken. Szynkowski apparently suffered a serious injury to the spine, he said.
Dankha and Holley were treated for minor injuries at a hospital close to the crash site and were expected to be released.
Hours after the crash, television images showed the still smoldering debris, which was spread out over a one-kilometer wide radius.
Civil aviation authorities said they had found the plane's black box and that it would be analyzed to determine the cause of the crash. The aircraft was thought to have fallen from an altitude of 1,650 yards, Gonzalez said.
The National Transportation Safety Board said Monday that it was sending a team of investigators to assist the government of Colombia in its investigation.
Local farmers rushed to the site as soon as the plane went down, but could not get close enough to help the injured because of the roaring flames, farmer Heli Dussan told the Colombian television network Caracol.
The Colombian Air Force responded to the crash and pulled the crew members from the mangled remains of the cockpit before dawn. Air Force nurse Laura Maria Linares told Caracol that she crawled into the cockpit through one of the windows and first tended to Kendall, who was in serious condition but conscious.
Kalitta was operating the plane for Miami-based Centurion Air Cargo. Centurion has an annual contract with Kalitta to lease an aircraft, crew, maintenance and insurance, said Kalitta Vice President Pete Sanderlin.

I agree with Benthere,

This thread is interesting to those of us who "measured" the whole runway and sat there eyeball-to-eyeball with office workers in buildings who were just as suprised as we were that the thing wasn't climbing properly.

"Let me just recheck those weights and Vspeeds" was the comment crews heard from the Captain after a ridiculously slow climbout with all four turning normally.

We ran those machines on takeoff at the ragged edge of disaster twenty years ago. It was legal. But it really made you wonder.

The subject is interesting because how the government proceeds will determine the operation of machines in the future. Benthere's suggestion to redo the performance for old vintage 747 airframes and engines is a good one. The argument against that will no doubt be one of cost and government rectification of old airframes that will exceed their value.

Perhaps the FAA should step in and use a percentage weight/stopdistance penalty (i.e. 5 or 10 percent) for airframes and engines past a certain age. Old engines could be de-rated back to the level of thrust they were originally certified and designed for. A notice of proposed rulemaking could be sent out to operators to give them time to respond with comments. Operators like CK provide a valuable service to the gov and the economy (kind of like Air America did) and should not be viewed in the same light as passenger carriers (after all, they are supplemental 121.) They should not be shut down for doing the hard dangerous job that all of us need done. You sign up at one of these outfits and you know what you are getting yourself into. You're probably going to have some close calls. But it is still safer than riding to the hotel.

I feel for the dead and injured, but in the same time period in the same city, you will find that dozens where killed and injured in automobiles without hardly a mention and no concern about how to prevent it from happening tomorrow. Who knows? Maybe PPrNe could become a useful tool in crafting policy for feds charged with making a decision about an aircraft and operations they have limited experience with. NASA's ASRS (Aviation Safety Reporting System) was highly successful and functioned in a similar manner. "Confess to ASRS" was their slogan. It's my opinion we should all quit worrying about getting fired and relate our experiences to reduce the stress of having to operate "at the edge" of what is safe.

I've learned a great deal in my readings here and think the moderators do an incredible job of having to wade through the huge volume of post here.

The computer based performance used now on the classics seems pretty accurate. The engines do a max-power take off at least once a week (more if conditions warrant) to ensure epr and egt are within limits. That was a highly experienced crew-I'm sure there's a lot more to the story than anyone knows right now.

This was said by the Chairman of United Technologies back in 1997:

"We've seen same kinds of gains in basic engine reliability, what we call in-flight shutdowns (IFSD). When we began with high bypass turbofans in the late 1960s, we regularly saw IFSD rates in the forty per 100,000 engine flight hour (EFH) range, or 400 per million EFH, or an expected shutdown of about once per engine per year. Today's ETOPS standard (the long range, over water operation), is one twentieth that rate, 2 IFSDs per 100,000 hours or about one event per engine per twenty years."

Any idea what is happening here, two engines (and their corresponding aircraft) with the same operator in such a short term?

Any idea what is happening here, two engines (and their corresponding aircraft) with the same operator in such a short term?


Facinating that everyone who has no information and knows nothing becomes an expert on the mechanical state of the aircraft involved in these mishaps. Automatically it's a company maintanence problem...has to be, right?

Not possible that the EBBR airplane ingested a bird and experienced a compressor stall, and actually had no mechanical problem that was induced by the airplane? It's really irrelevant to guess until actual information is available...but truly amazing at the conclusion upon so which many jump...has to be an operator with bad maintenance.

Then we have a situation in Bogota. We know nothing other than the airplane is down. Sketchy details. Did the company have bad maintenance, everyone wants to know....after all, it had to be the company, right?

No possibility of bad fuel with a multiple engine flameout and torching, and an amazing case of surviving an impossible situation from the cockpit. Why would anyone want to consider something like that when one can simply rush to crucify?

Vultures. Wait for the facts.

Well,

Loyalty to your carrier is indeed an admirable quality; CK was wise to hire you Guppy. I have no doubt you're a fine employee and a great pilot. But multiple posters have commented on the high numbers of incidents that they were personally aware of while flying there. One hears one report, one tends to dismiss it. One hear another, one might also ignore it. But one hears several more and then you start to wonder.... it begs the question: is this happening at other carriers? Is this happening to other models of heavy jets in operation? Surely, migrating birds and bad fuel don't just cross paths with one model of aircraft: the B-747-200? The odds of your scenerio: bird ingestion taking out two on one side are remote (but possible.) The odds of bad fuel only being delivered to your carrier and nobody else are also remote imho (but possible.) But your hypothetical defenses are based on what? Worse speculation than what other posters here are correctly focusing on:

There now are two individual Columbian Aviation officials from two independent news sources that state the crew made radio transmission of an engine fire. Pretty bad journalism if they're both wrong, but it's been known to happen.

Were these also JT9D-Q engines in Bogota as was the case of the Brussels crash? That might be a common thread that an investigator would follow if it is the case. It is not unheard of for a carrier to have outsourced engine overhauls to an operation who does them incorrectly.

Those In flight shutdown stats are interesting however, and the poster Kwick was fair to introduce them. I should point out, that I am not aware of any operator using old -Q engines on ETOP's (Extended Twin Engine Overwater Ops) so those numbers are not applicable: one shutdown in twenty years. ETOPs requires meticulous, audited, parts inventory control. I once worked for a carrier who applied for it and was turned down. We therefore were not permitted to be out of range of an alternate for more than XX minutes according to our POI's restriction on us.

IIRC, the 747 (partially due to it's low cycles per block hr) is the single safest commercial airplane ever operated in history (again as rated in deaths/seat/nm; excluding a/c with no appreciable history of course.) Source: AW&ST.

So, I would in fact, consider it unusual for one individual pilot to see four IFSD's in a couple of years as the previous poster relayed, if that information is true.

For those unfamiliar with Bogota, it is a high altitude airfield in a 'bowl', surrounded by high terrain. Departures even on all four engines, require careful planning and precise flying. I think that there is more to this accident than just one-engine out - let's wait and see before criticising crew procedures and maintenance. As for old engines not producing the rated power, that's a "red herring"! I don't think that the a/c would not have been up to max. permitted weight(for the conditions) for a flight to Miami, so there should have been some reserve left to cater for the engine out case.

in view of this incident one would expect the DGAC in colombia to reintroduce
the weighing of freighters again prior departure BOG - a time consuming process

Loyalty to your carrier is indeed an admirable quality; CK was wise to hire you Guppy. I have no doubt you're a fine employee and a great pilot. But multiple posters have commented on the high numbers of incidents that they were personally aware of while flying there. You hear one report, you tend to dismiss it. You hear another, you ignore it.


I said nothing about working for Kalitta, nor did I indicate my employer at all. It's not relevant. I don't speak for Kalitta any more than I speak for USA Jet or any other operator that has recently experienced a mishap or fatality. I will say the same for every single event, however; wait for the facts.

I said nothing about dismissing a report, nor have I done so in any way, shape, or form.

Wait for the facts.

Poster after poster beats his chest and cries bad maintenance, but there is no such indication. It's guesswork, unsubstantiated and wildly placed. Wait for the facts.

This is hard to understand? It dismisses nothing, excuses nothing, and has made no attempt to do so. It's really quite clear. Wait for the facts.

I wasn't implying that "Guppy" dismissed a report. Bad verb-age on my part I suppose.

I have edited/changed post number 100 from "You hear one report....." to "One hears one report and dismisses it." (i.e. repetitive worker complaints.)

But if ONE doesn't cut off the quote in mid paragraph, the meaning of my post is more apparent, wouldn't you say? :}

You win, you win, Guppy..... we're waiting for more news.

Fair enough. Lots of interesting rumors. I'm particularly interested in hearing more about a very unsubstantiated (friend of a friend of a friend) fuel contamination issue. No doubt if such might be the case, we'll learn soon enough.

I take it that we still don't have any confirmed facts about an engine fire transmission.

Engine fires to the crew are normally annunciated via the fire warning loop in the nacelle and have little to do with torching out the tailpipe or bad fuel. They also aren't likely to lead to negative climb performance without follow up radio transmissions. So to me there still are no corroborated facts.

BOG-MIA is a short sector, typically 3:15, so the airplane weight wouldn't have been critical on 3 engines at 10,000' MSL, or 1,600 AGL.

From memory, typical max ZFW on the Classic would be about 267 [Kgs]; add to that about 60 tons for the fuel and it would make the TOW only 327. MTOW on the Classic [at sea level] is 377+ Kgs. Given the high cost of fuel, it's dubious that they would have uplifted more than minimum required fuel.

The airplane was airborne, in climb mode, so something more must have been at stake than just one engine failure. :ooh:

here are some pics!

kalitta fo (http://www.410film.com/kalitta/kalitta.html)

i clicked above and saw those pics. i feel sorry for the people and the bird too.

Whale drivers - take a look at picture # 6894 (about 12 from the end) - are the fuel levers all "on"?

B747-200's operating out of Bogota (carrying flowers) are operating close to their maximum zero fuel weight limit. Doing so places the aircraft at or near it's maximum climb weight limit or it's maximum runway weight limit (depending on flap selection and power used). To carry maximum payload the aircraft most likely would be climb weight limited (flaps 20, maximum thrust) therefore leaving the crew with little or no room for error. Max certified takeoff weight is not a player.
Regards,
bpp

I really, really resent angryblackman. I personally know.flew, and spent many a hour in the simulator with Richard Dunlap and a better man you cannot meet. If I ran across you angryblackman, I would punch your right in your pie hole. You are definitely at the wrong end of the gene pool.

Huck, seeing the pic in question it seems nr2 throtle is aft, and nr1 is fully forward - can't see nrs 3 and 4 levers (blocked by a hanging seat cushion); all fuel levers are up, at the open position.

I've extracted the relevant pics :

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/6921/kalita2sq6.th.png (http://img411.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kalita2sq6.png)
http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/8611/kalita1vb1.th.png (http://img411.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kalita1vb1.png)
http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/3195/kalita3vq3.th.png (http://img363.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kalita3vq3.png)
http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/6270/kalita4rg8.th.png (http://img363.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kalita4rg8.png)
http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/9737/kalita5ri3.th.png (http://img363.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kalita5ri3.png)

GD&L

Start levers all appear in Idle to me.

I wouldn't pay too much attention to the position of the thrust levers, they would have been snapped into those positions by the cables as the airframe folded up.

Guppy you're right.

I also note that the Stab lever is not seen ... also moved by the crash forces?

bpp ... runway limit is irrelevant once airborne. Once the airplane is at 10000 feet it doesn't matter from where it took off. And at that altitude, 1600 AGL, the airplane was 50 tons below its max gross weight. A 3 engine climb at 327 tons is not critical. In fact, at that weight, for example, a GE powered CF6-50E2, at MCT could climb to and maintain FL270 at ISA +10c.

And "climb weight limit" beyond second segment 10 miles west of BOG near town of Madrid, [proximity of La Pincha airport] where the airplane crashed is also irrelevant because the elevation there is the same as at BOG. There is no higher terrain immediately west of the airport. The typical "emergency turn procedure," if required, at BOG has you flying west, circling within 10 miles, or circling over the field. Been there. Done all that.

If you go to Google Earth and run your curser west and west-northwest of BOG you may familiarize yourself with terrain elevations.

I also note that the Stab lever is not seen ... also moved by the crash forces?
Half of it is there, the other bit (not visible) is at the other (fwd) end of the gate. Again, snapped into position by the cables.

Looking at those pictures (#6856) that engine was not rotating very fast at impact.

AngryBlackMan, your comments are ignorant and misinformed. The presumption that these pilots were at fault simply because they worked for a company that is not at the head of every pilot's career ambitions, is absurd. I work for a "bottom feeder outfit" and I can tell you that the people here are the finest most competent people you could work with. And sometimes people have to make a stop at companies like this on the long career road. No one was born at UPS or FedEx or UAL or BA or wherever, those fortunate enough to be at a top job all worked their way there. Not you? Were you born into the lofty job you apparently hold? Did you forget where you came from? Your arrogance astounds me.

Your suggestion that somehow a College degree is an exclusive indicator of intelligence, capability or competence in aviation is also absurd. It is not an indicator in any profession. Bill Gates didn't finish his degree either, and I assume you would consider him incapable also? Individual circumstances are different for everyone, and your arrogance shines once again by judging people who were perhaps not as fortunate as you to have had the opportunity to benefit from higher education. However, there is one class that it seems you definitely slept through, and that is "public conduct 101".

Finally, with regard to your thread on another topic, relating to how many black pilots are employed in the UK, I have this to say. Hiring pilots should be on the basis of competence, not demographics. You can even demand a degree from an applicant, but as far as I am concerned the quantity of melanin pigment in the skin of an applicant should have absolutely nothing to do with anything. Merit and competence Mr AngryBlackMan, is the only reason anyone should be in a cockpit, and being black or white or yellow or brown or green has nothing to do with that, and having a degree has only a little bit more.

Mr. AngryBlackMan, you are a disgrace to your profession and to your race. Go get some counseling or something and stop rabidly pontificating about matters on which you are grossly biased and profoundly misinformed.

I agree with gas path. None of the engines show significant rotational damage. Maybe they were shielded by engine structure, but it does seem strange.

I couldn't help but notice the nice flat field nestled between a row of buildings and a rather steep hill in the photos.

Glueball
My statement did not imply the aircraft was runway limited. I merely stated that taking off from high altitude airports the max certified takeoff weight is not a player. Almost everytime I've departed Bogota the aircraft was climb weight limited. Understanding the relationship between your actual takeoff weight and the climb limit weight will give a good idea of what to expect in aircraft performance. Your statement assumes the aircraft is clean and at it's 3 eng enroute climb speed. Did you forget that he has to climb to his level off height, lower his nose to accelerate, clean the aircraft up, continue the climb while securing the engine (if it was still operating), trim the rudder for direction control and accomplishing the appropriate checklists? And do it within 1,600' agl (10,000' msl). He may never have reached his engine out acceleration height due to terrain and may not have changed the configuration of the aircraft other than gear up. What does 10,000' and maximium gross weight have to do with anything?

Regards,
bpp

As you wrote:
"Later, they had a DC8 literally loose number #1 engine (fell-off) at 35,000 feet while flying over Denver, Colorado."


Well sir (angryblackman), the issue of "literally loose (fell off)" as you mentioned and the aircraft was not at "35,000 feet" are slightly different as "I" remember them.

And I "know" that you were not aboard that aircraft.

The aircraft was at 31,000 feet enroute from Dayton, Ohio to San Jose, CA. The aircraft was weight capable of 35,000 but the lower was chosen to the report of light to moderate turbulence at the front range.

Severe clear turbulence was incurred at the front range upon which the #1 engine was "ripped" off along with all the leading edge outboard of #1. Upon separation the wiring bundle was carried over the top of the wing and caused numerous nuisance fire warnings until landing.

It occured about 60 miles west of Denver Stapleton. The leading edge was found the next day and the engine some four months later.

There was no fire, injuries, nor fuel spillage. A very soft landing was made on 17L at DEN.

The record of the event can be found in a public record NTSB report.

There were NO findings against any of the crew NOR were there any against the Kalitta certificate.

Lastly, all three of the crewmembers are college degreed and currently are employed by majors.

So "angryblackman".......any other details you would like to know about that day "sonny" !

Actually, GearDown&Locked,

The only thrust lever fully visable in that photo is #1. If you zoom the photo you can make out that the pilots knob is up high, and the flight engineer's knob is down low. Both knobs have a numeral one on them. Pilot's throttle knob 2 is against the firewall in the background (you can just make out the numeral.) Throttle assemblies 2 ,3, and 4 are mostly obscured by the seat cusion, but appear to be at high power since the throttle slots are completely visible and engineer knobs 2,3 and 4 are out of view (consistent with what you would expect to see in a high power postion.) Throttle one appears to be at idle because it's slot is completely absent (the slot you see near it is actually slot #2 from an angle.)

The photo, however, is taken flat down low (not as you would if you were standing on the floor.) This means that all four start levers are now are probably in the cuttoff position.

It appears to me that quite possibly a great amount of right rudder trim is evident by the "bald" spot on the rudder trim knob. If I remember correctly, it's a two piece affair: the lower worn, back illuminated indicator (trim units) circle rotates opposite the upper trim knob motion.

Corrections/disagreements welcome

pac "Sherlock" plyer




.

For convenience here is the pedestal photo again:

ImageShack - Hosting :: kalita2sq6.png (http://img411.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kalita2sq6.png)

And I just now noticed that reverser #1 (you can read it) is sprung way up in the air above the seat cushion. That's what happens when the reverser sleeve leaves, I found out one dark night out of JFK. So: three knobs in the foreground say "1" on them (at thrust lever Idle postition) and one knob says "2" on it (in the background behind the mike cord against the engine instruments.) Not drawing any conclusions, and I may be wrong about the trim motion from 18 years ago.

Somebody go flying and tell me how they rotate.

These are all just clues for us.

pac

(and I'd like to know what happens during an engine separation, never had one; do the cables just shear or do they move the throttles? What happened to the pilot that lost one over Michigan? Maybe someone can ask him?)

The start levers do appear to be in the cut off position, but photos can be deceiving. Also for those of you non-74 drivers, the multiple engine failure checklist (memory items) include moving the start levers to cut-off then back to idle to attempt restart.

Good point RAF,

I agree that cockpit control position observation is not definitive by any means; it is however part of all good early accident investigation and hopefully will be noted by the investigators. Your point is good that floor rigging might have been compromised below the upper deck control cable runs.

exRAFboy,

I agree with this very good point of yours as well. We don't know the source or time that this photo was taken, and rescuers could have moved something. The ship however is almost upside down. The control pedestal would effectively have been on the ceiling for egress rescue.

Agree we should wait for official info and make no conclusions from these photos.

Well done RAF.

Don't those fuel switches have to be "selected" i.e. moved in and out of detents to the on or off position?

pacific plyer & ExRAFboy,

I stand corrected. Having compared the Kallita F/D pic with an intact one (found here (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Qantas/Boeing-747-238B/0690415/L/&tbl=COCKPIT&photo_nr=77&sok=WHERE__%28aircraft_generic_%3D_%27Boeing_747-200_%28C-25ESCSLASHE-4%29%27%29_&sort=_order_by_photo_id_DESC_&prev_id=0715007&next_id=0684909)) it gets quite apparent your observations re start levers and thrust levers. Excellent marks on eyesight for you both :ok:

GD&L

pacplyer
(and I'd like to know what happens during an engine separation, never had one; do the cables just shear or do they move the throttles? What happened to the pilot that lost one over Michigan? Maybe someone can ask him?)

From testimony of a fellow crewman who was aboard the Evergreen incident (ANC), the thrust lever will violently slam back to it's stops during an engine separation. Pulled there through the attached cable motion of the falling engine.

Re. post #99 by SNS3Guppy, I feel sorry that I have to ignore it, for one basic reason:I did not say that "it's a company maintanence problem". What I did say is "Any idea what is happening here, two engines (and their corresponding aircraft) with the same operator in such a short term?"In my post #98 I was referring to in-flight shutdowns (IFSD), and was wondering if something could make the statistics work against the operator, not blaming maintenance, or operations, or anything else. Really, I was not expecting SNS3guppy dressed as if he were angryblackman to answer me.

Does anybody else notice a lack of "obvious" fire damage? I don't see much in the way of scorched grass or as much burnt wreckage as you might expect. Is anyone able to make a educated guess at the fuel load at the time of the incident? Obviously there is evidence of small fires in places. I agree the engines don't appear to have much of the "rotary" damage you would expect if they were at full power as the went in.

Regardless, a major incident, amazing the crew were able to escape, and with a mercifully small loss of life on the ground. One would have to presume the crew did their best to choose an empty spot as best they could, I suspect t could have been alot worse, as I can see more buildings in the background of some of the other shots. :D

From the photos

Th debris field may be located at

4" 42' 00" 77 N, 74" 11' 52" W on a heading parallel with the major highway

What do others think?

lomapaseo . . . didn't the local media say that it was closer to the township of Madrid, 16KM [10mi] west of BOG which is beside La Pincha [also an airstrip there]; if you zero in and click on the "blue dot" [photo enhanced version] at approx 4-43-40N and 74-15-44W you'll see an aerial photo of the town and surrounding area, . . . assuming that you have latest version of Google Earth.

Thanks for the Google refs. From the photo, not the nicest terrain in the world (from an off field landing point of view anyway)! Then again is there ever a nice off field landing site when your AC is a 747?

willit run, thanks for sharing these pics. it's amazing that the entire crew
survived this horrible crash.
my thoughts and prayers to all involved.

fr8d27

Lomapaseo - After reviewing several local newspaper and tv reports, I put it about 6 to 7 km WNW of your estimate, on the Casa Blanca farm (just outside of Madrid - Google Maps has it as La Pincha) between highway 50 and the Hacienda .

The Casa Blanca Hacienda is at 4º43'19.25"N, 74º15'42.91"W

A cab driver eyewitness was fueling at a petrol station and saw the power lines along the highway spark as they were hit just before the plane made contact with the ground. He stated he ran towards the hill (SW) as the plane broke up and caught fire. Enough flames to light up almost the entire 600 hectare farm. Upon reaching the cockpit, he and other farm workers unable to enter through window and desperately tried to break a larger window. They saw crew wearing oxygen masks.

I place the petrol station at 4°43'39.19"N, 74°15'21.29"W

First call to emergency responders received at 04:58. Among first responders were the firefighters of the nearby Maintenance Air Command of the Colombian Air Force, including a female member who was able to enter the open window to initiate an evacuation - one that took 1.5 hours total.

Front section of aircraft ended up 50m beyond and to the East of the rest of the wreckage.

Flight originated in Brasil with a load that included mobile phones, fabric, refrigerator parts and a VW. Stopped in Bogota to pick up the flowers and upload fuel.

Latest news reports are heralding the expertise of the crew for avoiding what could have been a catastrophic loss of life (Madrid has 70.000 residents).

Insert statement of choice regarding reliability of eyewitness & news reports.

Little Rotational Damage

It's hard to tell engine damage looking from the front. The n1 can look undamaged from the front even though an n2 shaft might have failed behind it, giving an entirely different appearance looking from the aft of the engine.

Irrespective of the investigation, which could take long time to complete, the commercial iplications of losing two aircraft in as many months could be devastating to Kalitta. Current or future contracts can be termintated as customers (carriers using them under ACMI and brokers) fear their names may be associated with an aircraft accident.

This industry is all about reputation. Whilst the actual cause may have nothing to do with MX or crew actions most customers cannot await the outcome of the offical investigation and will take their business elsewhere in an effort to afeguard their interests. Not how it should be but it is how it is. Even if in 18months time when the investigators present their findings and state that the crew couldn't have done a more perfect job for now it is the Kalitta logo lying on it side in Bogata or broken up in BRU and this is what the customer sees and basis his decision on.

"Little Rotational Damage" During the flare, just prior to touchdown, the operating engines would normally be at idle thrust. You wouldn't be crash landing with intentional high thrust setting and a speed faster than necessary. :ooh:

During the flare, just prior to touchdown, the operating engines would normally be at idle thrust.

Is there a chance of the crew having shut down the engines right before they touched ground (assuming the fuel levers weren't touched after the accident) ?

Not likely as you wouldn't have any landing lights. There are also hydraulic power issues [flight controls] when engines are idling below 160kts.

Having flown flowers out of Bogota over a hundred times in the Classic I am not surprised to see on crash after take-off like this one.

Everything is balls to the walls and every limit is reached and sometimes exceeded, all of that at high elevation and at night when the crews are dog-tired and should be in bed.

The engine out procedure is confusing at best, and don't work too good as some of the beacons needed to fly the procedure are out of service or too weak to pick up.

Even with 4 engines turning we had a terrain warning during clean-up after a BOG departure.

A company I worked for lost a 747-200 in MDE as the Nr. 1 engine exploded right at V1 and the crew did not get the airplane stopped.

YouTube - Tradewinds Boeing 747 Rejected Takeoff Crash (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wj8UPEfO1Oo)

Turns out Kallitta had overhauled the engines we used on the classics.
Perhaps there is a trend here, Brussels and all...?

So when is Kalitta going to start passenger operations?

I am very surprised at the philosophical tone of this thread. Imagine the fuss if 800 people had been written off in these two crashes? As it is two innocents were killed in their sleep, when one of these flying scrapyards crashed.

Just look at the build dates of most of his fleet? Unbelievable that "bottom feeders" like Kalitta, Evergreen, MK and others are so poorly regulated. Do you remember the Evergreen 747 which lost power over London and was directed over huge population centres to Heathrow? Scandalous irresponsible judgements by ATC and the pilots of that crippled jet.

Clearly aircraft that are over 30 years old cannot put up with the stresses of constant maximum performance operations. Hopefully the current fuel prices will see them squeezed out of business for everyone's sake.

So Poof, how would you regulate these bread and butter players to other than the World standards with which they are subjected to now? . . . You will require considerably more education on the subject to answer intelligently, and if / when this intelligence is acquired, you will then be surprised at your conclusion.
- - - -
With regards to a double hull loss, will Kalitta's AMC contracts automatically be terminated / in jeopardy? If so, that would be tragic.

Interesting trivia - remember that years ago - Boeing had initially created the B-747sp (hot rod) variation per Braniff request, so that they could comfortably operate into / out of Bogotá and Quito.

Boeing had initially created the B-747sp (hot rod) variation per Braniff request, so that they could comfortably operate into / out of Bogotá and Quito.

Hmm, did not know that.
I thought the SP was a super long-haul version with 18 hours fuel...?

I flew -200s in and out of Quito many times since 2005. Usually approached at night @<hidden> max -landing weight..No problems, but one has to be gentle on the brakes, otherwise they heat up and blow tires...Not good.

Many thanks for the responses that identified the apparant debris field location.

Somebody was nice enough to send me an unedited off air video clip confirming the location. See image below

http://fromtheflightdeck.com/MEL/Location.jpg

The video clip had lots of additional information in the naration unfortunately I don't have language skills to interpret.

It does appear that the aircraft struck the house at the beginning of the debris field.

I wonder if the locals can add any more information that has been released by the authorities rleative to ATC transmissions or crew statements.

From the visuals, I suggest the crew did their best to get the airframe, the cargo and themselves out of flight as best they could. These latest images suggest they worked hard on this task.

d

Recently spoke to a Kalitta crew and was told of a third hull loss while in maintenance. Something about a crane holding the empennage and when maintenance personnel could not remove the last bolt (as it was binding) decided to cut the bolt which caused the main body to separate and the crane to topple over onto the aircraft causing extensive damage to the aircraft, beyond economic repair.
Again, this was told to me by a Kalitta crew.
Regards,
bpp

Unbelievable that "bottom feeders" like Kalitta, Evergreen, MK and others are so poorly regulated.
What do you know about their regulation, or lack thereof? They are FAA Part 121 carriers just like Delta and United, and are subject to the very same regulations!

Just look at the build dates of most of his fleet? Unbelievable that "bottom feeders" like Kalitta, Evergreen, MK and others are so poorly regulated. Do you remember the Evergreen 747 which lost power over London...

What does the build date and being poorly regulated have to do with losing power over London? Do you remember the 777 that lost ALL power over London?

Apartheid-induced airspace restrictions resulted in some sales as well, as I recall....

Having flown flowers out of Bogota over a hundred times in the Classic I am not surprised to see on crash after take-off like this one.

Everything is balls to the walls and every limit is reached and sometimes exceeded, all of that at high elevation and at night when the crews are dog-tired and should be in bed.

The engine out procedure is confusing at best, and don't work too good as some of the beacons needed to fly the procedure are out of service or too weak to pick up.

Even with 4 engines turning we had a terrain warning during clean-up after a BOG departure.

A company I worked for lost a 747-200 in MDE as the Nr. 1 engine exploded right at V1 and the crew did not get the airplane stopped.

YouTube - Tradewinds Boeing 747 Rejected Takeoff Crash

Turns out Kallitta had overhauled the engines we used on the classics.
Perhaps there is a trend here, Brussels and all...?
Today 06:43



I've got to tell you....

Tower Dog, that sounds like one of the most difficult segments in which to have to operate. Second leg of the night.... Correct me if I'm wrong: If it's a heavy departure (say company wants to tanker some fuel) you've gotta be considering a bleeds-off T/O which means taking off unpressurized if the APU is weak or inop, right?: cleaning up at over 10,000 feet? (ICAO noise abatement? 3K AGL above?) , which.... does that mean masks on?

Nothing worse than trying to do complicated procedures in the dark with oxy masks on, imho. Add an engine fire warning and now you have to ditch the SID and switch to the eng out procedure in mountains when all you can hear is people breathing on speaker, mic's squealing, ADF's not pointing right..... Ugh.

The next thing you know, the memory procedures are completed for fire and the machine starts going downhill at full power on the remaining three. No way below 250kts to bring the start lever/switch back up and have it relight........ so the S/O would reach up and try to open the start valve on the one he just shut down.... did he remember to re-open some bleeds back there so he can do a crossbleed start and get that motor turning again? Did he remember to reset the overhead fire switch/handle?

Sounds worse than a nightmare from the "oh-dark-thirty" sim session. :sad:

The above is all just Hypothetical from sim experiences and in no way is meant to imply that's what happened in Bogota. But here, let me ding the objection call button for you.....

Machaca;
Lomapaseo - After reviewing several local newspaper and tv reports, I put it about 6 to 7 km WNW of your estimate, on the Casa Blanca farm (just outside of Madrid - Google Maps has it as La Pincha) between highway 50 and the Hacienda .
Agree. I think the lake to the east of the crash-site may settle it, but this too, is a guess...:


http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk76/batcave777/2008-07-11_232511_CrashSite_label.png



http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk76/batcave777/2008-07-11_232550CrashSite10xlabel.png

NOT trying to be a tabloid journalist here, but it certainly looks, as Daikilo, BigHitDH and lomopaseo say, as if the crew did their very best to place the crash in the least damaging place. As it was dark, I do not know how they managed it so well, but those pictures certainly suggest it and all praise to the pilots for that.

Any news on the injured and recovery? The pics of the nose/cockpit look pretty awful.

exRAF,

Yes I remember that now... Thanks RAF; was thinking of another machine. :ok:

Can you look in your book sometime and tell me if there is a high altitude t/o procedure and charts for t/o with engine Bleeds Off? One of these machines I used to fly we did that.....

If you can find it, I'll do the next engine readings for you. Promise :E


break, break


PJ2,

Whoops, had it upside down there, PJ2 I'll buy that location if you'll put your red arrow on the other side of the lake and spin it 180 degrees. I believe maybe he clipped the trees and wires by the dam.

What do you think?

pac

PJ2 - very close, but wrong direction:

http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/475/n714cksitemaphw6.th.jpg (http://img375.imageshack.us/my.php?image=n714cksitemaphw6.jpg)

They clipped power lines crossing the highway and it appears from Lomapaseo's vidcaps they collected trees along the stream at the corner of the smaller "bent" pond. The berm 2/3 ways down the impact path likely caused the nose section crush and separation.

Machaca,

you beat me to it. It's close to the gas station coordinates and shows the damp earthen berm (looks like a dry flood pond) that put all that dirt and grass in the fan section perhaps causing the sudden stop of the N1 disc that is so mysterious.

They did a helll of a job keeping control with an outboard engine out if that is the case. :D

Sorry - I don't see it. That lake on the GoogleMap looks nothing like the one in the photos, surely? :confused:

TwoOneFour:
Sorry - I don't see it.

On my Google-Earth the coordinates for the latest picture posted by Machaca are 4.43'24, 74.15'11 at the building structure the aircraft perceivably hit.


Green-dot

Green-dot:

Thanks - I've been looking at things on the wrong scale. Got it now. Cheers.

Comparing Iomapaseo's images of the debris field in post #153 with Machaca's Google Earth image, that lake must have had quite some alterations since the Google Earth picture was taken? A large part of the lake (parallel to the debris field) is similar but it now "bends" in the opposite direction and covers considerably less area when viewing the images in post #153.


Green-dot

Subtle changes are common with Googleearth as some of the sat shots are old. But try rotating it upside down. Then approach over the damn.

Jump across the lake. It looks like a green swampy field; sat shot probably taken when it had tall green grass growth.

better?

Thanks Machaca - the "dry" beds look different but the overall shape is there as are the other geographical cues - cheers.

Jump across the lake. It looks like a green swampy field; sat shot probably taken when it had tall green grass growth.

Thanks pacplyer. Indeed, the color differences between the smaller and larger part of the lake in the sat picture are deceptive.

Regards,
Green-dot

There is a strange contradiction in the crash site pictures.
The length of the debris field seems what one could expect from an aircraft crashing at climb-out speed.
However the picture of two engines sitting side by side and both pointing the same direction implies low fwd speed.:confused:

The fact that all three engines seen in the pictures show little to no rotational damage has me puzzled.
Even at idle RPM I would expect to see more damage done, either by flattening of the fan case on impact, or by dirt and debris being ingested.

The cockpit interior pictures are a grim reminder of what Murphy will do given the oppertunity.

Thoughts with all affected :(

The fact that all three engines seen in the pictures show little to no rotational damage has me puzzled.
Even at idle RPM I would expect to see more damage done, either by flattening of the fan case on impact, or by dirt and debris being ingested.


Did you note the severe fan damage to the 4th engine as well? That appears to be the cacass without a fan case visible.

So what does hitting a house do to an engine?

Sorry for the off subject distraction,. . . but thanks Towerdog and ExRAFboy for the "SP" education. I had thought that my info came from a book somewhere but now can't find it.

Huck:

Apartheid-induced airspace restrictions resulted in some sales as well, as I recall....


KSEA-FAJS direct on a delivery flight with pre-cooled fuel IIRC.

Some guys on the line can't comment for obvious reasons.

Question to retired guys:

High altitude 747 t/o's are essentially semi-unpressurized, packs off, (which is different than some jets that allow a pack to run at t/o on apu, IIRC

I can't get to my books out here, but I seem to remember a high altitude procedure & charts where all bleeds are kept off until clean up. This ensures extra power for first, second, and final segment climb capabilities.

Operational profiles are different at different carriers but, we used to typically call for climb power at 1500ft AGL and then level off to accelerate at 3000 feet AGL. After flps 1 call, IIRC, the bleeds would be re-opened as to provide PDU function for the slats retract call typically at around 220kts according to weight.

Bogota's 8400 ft field elevation plus 3K equals 11,400 meaning a cabin altitude warning horn would go off at cabin altitude of before 10K, right? Did you don masks before t/o?

We have a second-hand report from a cab driver that the crew were wearing Oxygen Masks when found. My reason for focusing on this is that we had at least five different types of audio selector in our fleet of 747's when I flew it. It was not a simple thing in the dark to don the mask and wrestle with a dirty, poorly lit, confusing unit that was different than the simulator. Some you flipped a switch, others you flipped two switches, some you lifted and turned a knob and flipped a switch, some you depressed a button and turned two knobs .... and if you didn't get the speaker volume and selector volume up, you just wasted your time and had to start over again. I just can't see how anybody could do a good job navigating or communicating with this damn impediment in play.

Back before de-regulation, carriers had the money and the safety culture to attempt to standardize fleet cockpits. Not saying that this had anything to do with the Bogota accident. But this could have been a factor. JMHO's only.

It's clear to me at least, that deregulation of airlines, banks and oil just hasn't worked out at all!

pac

One pack goes on at 400AGL, it's included in the performance criteria, including 3-eng climb. Nobody wears oxygen masks at BOG [8360], unless perhaps you're a heavy smoker and have difficulty breathing.

Pax 74s had been operating into BOG [AV- Avianca] way back in the 70s; bleeds are not kept off during the inital climb. It's an elementary certification criteria; if the airplane couldn't climb on 3-eng with pressurization capability, then it wouldn't be certified to operate at this high altitude airport.

By the way, 74s also operate into UIO - Quito, where the elevation is 9226 feet. :ooh:

74 classic bleeds are on for take off-they run the adp's to help gear retraction. As previously stated first pack on at 400 feet. Take off is always unpressurized. The Connie birds are actually very well equipped. Glass adi/hsi, dual fms, in all a/c; electronic flight bags in most soon to be all. Not typical of the "bottom feeders" as many are ignorantly trying to assert. Take off performance is computer based for each specific runway and of course always takes into account an engine loss on take off. That was a very experienced crew and I really don't see this event as being as simple as a single engine loss on departure.

glueball & Junkflyer (man, you gotta change that screen name!),

Isn't there a field in Lima Peru or someplace in Peru that has a Takeoff above 10,000 ft field elevation? Maybe that's where a "bleeds off" t/o is required in the performance charts in ground school. The supplemental procedure would be part of the individual airline's AOM as approved by the POI. The data it is derived from would come from Boeing performance data/charts in Seattle. I don't think its a case of a binary question of: are bleeds off required or not required by certification data. At certain high gross weights if an operator wishes to avail himself of that higher weight capability he must find a way in the already certified master 747-200 performance data at boeing to allow that heavy-high operation. The gain might be another 8,000 lbs of permited TOGW for example if all four bleeds are selected off until after cleanup.

I could have sworn there was a (packs off & three bleeds off then?) procedure and charts for this but maybe you guys don't do this anymore. If I can find it I'll have to post it up here in about three months when I get back to the states. In the meantime, I'll just have to take your word for it guys. :O

Cheers & thanks for the insight.

74s are not certificated to operate from fields above 10,000 feet.

In South America, the highest major commercial airport is at La Paz, Bolivia [LPB/SLLP] 13,313 feet; In Peru there is Cuzco [CUZ/SPZO] at 10,855'

That's it. And agreed, 10,000 ft is the absolute limit for certification t/o and landing. (But now I'm positive that there's a two bleeds off t/o performance chart, now that I think about it..... ) Right?

Just thinking about operating this high is giving me a nosebleed though! :uhoh:

747 classic bleeds are open for take off not just for air driven pumps.Leading edge flaps are also air driven. Many years ago [LH I think] did a bleeds off departure [in error] = no leading edge flaps =crash.

Manley,

Not to pick nits, but the leading edge flaps (e.g. inboard krugers) are actually hydraulically operated. They droop open on the ground until ADP's (air driven hydo pumps) are turned on or engine-driven hydro pumps start up. The fiberglass leading edge slats, however, are air-driven, activated by the PDU's (Pnematic Drive units.) But you don't need those until the "Slats retract call." It won't crash loosing air because the PDU has an internal locking mechanism. It is well known that inop bleeds can be defered and wired shut. MEL restrictions then apply.

Agreed, some bleed is needed to pressurize the air "head" on the hydro reservoirs, ADP gear service assist etc. So I guess the 4 bleeds off was the 146 or something.... my apologies.

I remember that you can t/o with the apu running (you actually get 600 lbs extra thrust out of it! But can't count that.) Refresh my memory here.... can the APU supply any elect or pnem demands during t/o (per ops procdrs)? Maybe it was just for back up....

I'm doing pretty good on this oral, huh?

Hand me a bigger shovel so I can dig deeper.... :}

One regular destination of the -400F is LTX with an elevation of 9200ft.
3 Packs-off take-off can be done, but normally not needed over there.
In NBO it's often a necessity. After thrust reduction in climb-out one by one the packs on again. Gives indeed some gain. Bleeds always remain on, though.

pacplyer,

I'm not sure which A/C you are talking about (727?) but the 747 LE krueger and variable leading edge flaps are all pneumatic with electrical back up.

Manley, & SMOC,

You are right, they are air driven, my mistake. Manley, you may also be right about the 747 crash, but I am not aware of the leading edge device accident you refer to.

Thanks guys for keeping me honest.

Cheers

Excuse the human diversion from this important analysis:rolleyes:

Does NO-ONE have news of the recovery of the injured?

BOAC,

Fruitless Analysis over. I yield the floor.

Most of the injured will be returning home shortly. Kalitta flew families there to be with the crew and to bring them home.

You are right, they are air driven, my mistake. Manley, you may also be right about the 747 crash, but I am not aware of the leading edge device accident you refer to.

Link to 747 crash Nairobi:
ASN Aircraft accident Boeing 747-130 D-ABYB Nairobi-Jomo Kenyatta International Airport (NBO) (http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19741120-0)

Regards

The747 mel allows take-off with a single adp inop. (May different per operator)
With a #1 or 4 inop all performance is based upon no gear and flap retraction due to losing the hydraulic system if that engine fails.

This streaming video from Caracol News (mms://video.canalcaracol.com/videos/Noticias/Nacional/Bogota/070708accidenteavion.wmv) shows the scene, rescue and interviews with witnesses and officials. All in Spanish -- here's the more technical tidbits I gleaned from the audio:

#4 was the problem engine (stated by scene reporter [twice], and Director of Civil Aeronautics)
crew reported fire and intention to return immediately after liftoff (stated by reporter and Director of Civil Aeronautics)
about 250 tonnes at takeoff (reporter attributed this to Director of Civil Aeronautics)
plane hit trees before house (stated by witness and reporter)
lower empennage struck ground first (stated by reporter, not attributed)
Many people witnessed the plane skim over Madrid and crash. Not one mentioned seeing any fire until after impact with the ground.-=MachacA=-

Thanks for the clarity Machaca

Now if only we knew whether they had a smoke in the cabin or if the gear was down

Excellent link Machaca.

It seems to me that there has been a great job on the rescue by the Colombian Air Force, the nurse in the interview entered the cabin from a window, located the person with the most threatening injuries and began stabilizing him on site (she mentioned lot of blood loss), as the other rescuers not had not yet gained access.

PacFlyer,

The short answer is, Dude, you failed your oral.

The APU on the classic, or, well, the newest 747 is a great big heavy thing back on the tail that may allow you to power and deliver bleed air to the aircraft on the ground.

It MAY even do that in flight.

It does NOT give you 600 pounds of thrust. Maybe some believe that, but I wouldn't count on it in a crunch.

Seriously, if it's that bad, the APU ain't gonna help, you are NOT gonna zoom over that hill with the goat on top by starting the APU.

You've already been corrected on the flaps, so I ain't going there.

Back to school Kiddo.......

PB

Word now comming out - this from a friend of a friend of a crewmember - was that #4 failed first, then #1, then #2, then #3(partial), then #4 restarted. Aircraft landed with #4 at full thrust.
Only FE now remains in very critical condition + mech with broken back? Others minor or ok. No further details.

Word now comming out - this from a friend of a friend of a crewmember - was that #4 failed first, then #1, then #2, then #3(partial), then #4 restarted. Aircraft landed with #4 at full thrust.

Yep, this is what I'm hearing from a well placed source who has reported reliably in the past. The crew did a helluva job.

Gee, thanks bug. ;) (But the APU thrust comment was trivia only, obviously it can't augment loss of a 50-60,000 lb thrust class engine; I should have put in a smiley in there.) Some a/c MEL's can launch with items like bleeds inop provided a running apu is there to back it up in case of another engine failing.

I guess I'm the only one that's ever encountered that....

I know, I know, :=:=:= back to the drawing board.... :(

I never heard of a "Bleeds-off" takeoff on a -200 before. With 4 independent hydraulic systems powered by engine driven pumps, the bleed air is required to operate the "Air driven pump" in case of engine failure( ADP's are both a supplemental pumps as well as for backup). However, if performance is limiting, there is an easy performance gain for turning packs 1+3 off, closing the isolation valves( now bleeds from eng 1+2 provide air to/ and only to the left wing manifold [ L.E. flaps ], and the right isolation closed and right manifold pressurized with bleed air from eng 3+4. The APU will provide bleed air to #2 pack.
Of course, some freighters have #2 pack removed ( weight loss ), and your APU would have to be operating, as would it's bleed air.

If previous post is correct, about multiple eng. failures, all this performance dialog is moot.

Purely hypothetically speaking now,

Thanks Firststep. So the APU is used sometimes in concert with pnem issolation valves to supply pack source/pressurization at 400 feet AGL to reduce total eng bleed requirement, thus, improving high altitude performance. That's what I wanted to know; (forget the four bleed off procedure everybody; that's negative transfer from another airplane.)

Earl had a post where he relayed (reliable source) buzz of multiple engine failures as well, however it is now gone for some reason.

Engine nacel fire warnings are often caused by bleed leaks at high power near the fire detection loops and sometimes troublesome bleeds are legally wired shut by mtc and defered is where I'm going with this.

It still doesn't make sense to me that the first responders, saw people wearing masks right after it happened. This bugs me. Perhaps the pack didn't get turned on, or couldn't get an air source at 400 ft in all the confusion and later the cabin altitude horn sounded? Mysterious.

At any rate, it's beginning to sound like the Columbian media is right: these guys were genuine heros in handling a nightmare scenario.

pac - out

If El # and Airbubba are correct, it certainly is a huge :ok:to the crew. Sorry to hear of the 'critical' crew members, but overall a miraculous result looking at the wreckage. I'm sure our Kalitta friends will pass on the best wishes of all here.

Here's a large overview of the area:

http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/1481/n714ckbigviewib4.th.jpg (http://img240.imageshack.us/my.php?image=n714ckbigviewib4.jpg)

If the total time aloft was only 30-60 seconds, then the Chucua 1 departure (130 degree left turn at 9200 feet) with multiple engine failures would have them putting down where they did.

If the flight lasted several minutes, then perhaps after engine #4's problem at liftoff they continued straight ahead to BOG VOR instead of the normal turn, swung around and headed down the 145 radial to intercept the ILS to 13R, but subsequent failure(s) saw them continue along the 145 for the forced landing.

Some possible tracks:

http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/2056/n714ckposstrackskx0.th.jpg (http://img354.imageshack.us/my.php?image=n714ckposstrackskx0.jpg)

Here's the final approach:

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/4497/n714ckapproach1gn5.th.jpg (http://img167.imageshack.us/my.php?image=n714ckapproach1gn5.jpg)

Gear down and locked?

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/3064/n714ckmaingear1zb4.th.jpg (http://img90.imageshack.us/my.php?image=n714ckmaingear1zb4.jpg)

I just received an e mail that was forwarded to me from the Kalitta union. They did lose #4 engine and before they could run the checklist #1 failed. The story I read showed a lot of professionalism (take that angryblackguy), not to mention a healthy dose of good luck. Rich Dunlap is a freind and I wish him and all the others a speedy recovery, but judging from the injuries they received, for some, that may be a while. Pray for them.

are we talking about independent engine failures with at least one restartable or dependent (on something) failures?

I've never heard of such a thing at takeoff where the fans don't show massive FOD

I believe that union letter, like all other communications on the matter, was intended to be kept confidential, and accordingly, given in confidence.

So much for trust and professionalism.

I believe that union letter, like all other communications on the matter, was intended to be kept confidential, and accordingly, given in confidence.

So much for trust and professionalism.

So what would be the point of distributing such information to only a select few pilots?

What would be the point of a union distributing only to union members, or a company restricting the information they share with their employees to only their employees? You don't understand this?

pacplyer ". . . it can't augment loss of a 67,000 lb thrust engine; I should have put in a smiley in there.)

No classics have 67,000 lb thrust motors! Not even Air Force One. The largest engines fitted to the classics is the GE CF-80-C2B, delivering 56,600 lbs thrust. It was fitted to the early -400s. It's enough power to out-climb the classic wing.

If you can find a 747 classic Boeing manual and read it, then you'll get a grip on things. :ooh:

It still doesn't make sense to me that the first responders, saw people wearing masks right after it happened.


They didn't. You're chasing a ghost.

What would be the point of a union distributing only to union members, or a company restricting the information they share with their employees to only their employees? You don't understand this?

Validated flight safety information is typically distributed to all operators via the manufacturer. So I suppose that all we're dealing with at this time is unsubstantiated rumour with critical pieces missing regardless of the privacy of the source.

As per layinlow's post #206
Corrected developing info from rep now explains that only #4 had failed followed by #1. If details to be confidential then ok.
At any rate - high terrain multiple engine failure on a dark night, very soon after Vr.

With all due respect to the incidents mentioned by Kalitta aircraft, here is the
official NTSB reports for all incidents listed for Kalitta, including the two
DC8 problems discussed....
Aviation Query Results Page (http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/Response2.asp?spage=1&x_page_size=10&sql=Y&p1=1%2F1%2F1965&p2=7%2F14%2F2008&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=&p7=&p8=&p9=&p10=&p11=&p12=Kalitta&p13=&p14=&p15=&p16=ev%5Fdate&p17=Desc&p18=&p19=&p20=&p21=&p22=&p23=&p24=)

Interesting to note, the aircraft involved in the crash in Colombia was
also previously involved in an incident on take off from Sapporo Japan.

I am not bashing anybody or pro or con Kalitta, just simply providing official
NTSB (National Transportation Safety Board) data as on file.

Interesting to note, the aircraft involved in the crash in Colombia was
also previously involved in an incident on take off from Sapporo Japan.


Why is that interesting or relevant? Same airframe, but same engine? You don't know. The Sapporo event was an uneventful handling of a fuel leak and fire warning, as reported in the link you provided. It has some relevance here exactly how?

The report prior to that involved an inflight engine separation, which has already been discussed here after being introduced by the angry black man, I believe. The engine was overhauled by United Airlines, and the high pressure turbine that failed was obtained from Tradewinds. Tradewinds in turn got it from Aeroturbine, who got it from General Electric Commercial Aviaton Services, who obtained it from Polar Air Cargo. It was this high pressure turbine that was installed on the engine that separated, and it was this high pressure turbine that failed. An isolated incident which has no bearing here, and provides no useful information to the current situation. It's been previously discussed, serves no purpose here, so why introduce it?

Events prior to that time in the link you cited apply to American International Airways, a company owned by Kalitta but sold and merged into Kittyhawk...irrelevant to current events, and therefore shouldn't be considered in the present discussions.

"""Dear Fellow Kalitta Air Crewmembers from your Captain Representative:

When I accepted the position of Captains representative, I did so because I felt the need to help. I never imagined that "helping" would included visiting fellow crewmembers in the hospital, but that is what myself and Bill Gonzales and Dan Gardner, along with Gene Sowell have been doing here in Bogota, Columbia for the last few days. We have been here representing the Union, your Union, and doing whatever is needed for the guys, including helping them dress. I can tell you first hand that these guys went through hell and have the bruises to show for it! This crew, all of them, did everything possible in the face of extreme adversity.

What I can tell you now, I will as follows; The operating crew was - redacted - was sitting in the aft observers seat. The two loadmaster,- redacted - were sitting on the left and - redacted - were on the right. Everything, life, was normal until just after rotation. It was then, as described in all accounts, the number four engine failed. Immediately, as briefed and as set up on the FMS Fix page, the crew proceeded with the "special engine out procedure". However before any checklist could be accomplished or turns back to the airport, it appears that number one engine failed. It was then that years of experience demonstrated by cool and matter of fact thinking lead them to the "dark spot" on the ground. Everyone knew what was happening, that they would soon be landing "off airport" because they just didn't have the thrust to get them back. All they could do was not stall the airplane and try and hit wings level in the shallowest descent possible and that is what happened. The impact and the seconds following were described as surreal. When things came to a stop reality set in and now all that mattered was getting out and getting the injured to the hospital. As you can imagine everything was in a disarray. The ceiling was now the floor, the "L" windows were now the "R" windows and there was no discernible way out. - redacted - used a fire extinguisher and the the crash ax after it was located, to bust out the L1 window. - redacted - were removed via a backboard and the others exited on their on and were all taken to the hospital. Amazingly, - redacted - were basically unhurt while - redacted - had slight injuries and - redacted - was pinned in his seat until the rescue workers were able to free him. - redacted - suffers from large and numerous bruises, a fractured lumbar and tail bone. - redacted - initially walked on his own to the back to check on everyone else after releasing himself from his seat upside down but soon discovered that he had moderate back injuries and is now physically recovering as expected, but wearing a back brace. - redacted - broke his nose again and was readmitted to the hospital only to discover that he has a cracked lumbar and is in a back brace. The nurses say, in Spanish, he looks like a Panda Bear and I told them to stay away from Bears. - redacted - severely injured his back/spine. He is very alert but in pain and will be facing a long recovery period in which his mobility is in question. I was able to spend over 30 minutes alone with him and assured him that if he needed his house in Atlanta modified so he can get around that WE would see to it. Now - redacted - was injured the worst and was found out of his seat lying on the ceiling, conscience. He was given the portable O2 mask and First Aid rendered. - redacted - had surgery as previously reported and is in a induced coma to aid in his healing. We all know - redacted - as a strong, tough, stubborn guy and with OUR PRAYERS and the excellent care he is receiving he will recover. The next 48 hours will tell a lot and hopefully all can be transported back to the USA soon as to ease the burden on their families, who are all here now.

Guys, all I can say is PLEASE PRAY for - redacted -. Pray for their physical well being as well as their emotional well being. What they experienced, I wish on no one. There is guilt over the lives lost on the ground and what effect this will have on OUR company. When able I will get addresses for all so you can express your feelings to them. Also don't forget that - redacted - went through similar feelings and a word of encouragement to all of them would be nice.

Remember.....FLY SAFE, STAY STRONG and DEMONSTRATE your PROFESSIONALISM to ALL!

Fraternally,

Mack McCurry

Your Union Captain Representative.""""

SNS3Guppy,

WHoa and slow down. I mentioned that I am neither pro or con Kalitta
and not ruffling any feathers. I just provided an official link to topics
previously discussed in this thread so that people could see the official
cause, not personal opinions of these incidents. People are free to draw
there own conclusions. I am not forcing them to think one way or another.

As far as the incident in Japan involving the same aircraft that recently
crashed. There is probably no corelation at all, I and repeat I thought it
was interesting that the same aircraft had been involved in an incident
previously that required a report to be filed with the NTSB.

Yes there is a 10 year period between incidents, but no matter what the
company name, Kalitta Flying Services, AIA, Kalitta Air etc they are in
fact owned by the same person! In this day and age, for a fleet as
large as they own, 10years without an incident is a tribute to their
practices.

Now in reference to the above stated post that, first #4, then #1, #2
and #3 (partially) failed with #4 restarted before the landing would that
not suggest some type of contamination, be it fuel, birds, or volcanic
ash or whatever. Looks to me the crew did a remarkable job putting it
down where they did with minimum amount of ground catastrophy prevented.
Condolences to the deceased included.

If any of us can offer assistance in any way please don't hesitate to ask. Please send me a PM if anythingg is required. I spend a lot of time in Ypsilanti.

Prayers and well wishes for all

Billy

. . . above stated post that, first #4, then #1, #2and #3 (partially) . . .would that not suggest some type of contamination, be it fuel, birds, . . .or whatever.

They are now saying that only the outboard engines had failed (in succession), and just after VR.

If so, could a departure (high thrust demand) with the outboard fuel boost pumps mistakenly placed / left in the "off" position also cause this? . . . I know of like example bonehead configuration mistakes that have inadvertently occurred at times before, but then at a lower, more normal field elevation (better fuel head pressure) and with no results. . . . but engine starvation if departing from a higher elavation runway (8600ft)?

Outboard boost pumps off / inboard boost pumps on / crossfeeds open, is a standard configuration that is commonly used during / after climb (for keeping fuel weight in the wingtips until it's usage is required).

No suggestions . . . just academically exploring diverse ideas as to a double outboard failure.

Hey Bonger

Did you read the heading, it was directed to Kalitta Crewmembers not every public aviation board. Why don't you include your name as well right below the Pilots Rep's name!

Very unprofessional!

Bonger, Thank you for the update.

Our prayers and well wishes to each and everyone involved. And lets not forget the families. Often, time the families need as much or more support than the crew members.

We now have enough information.

Lets wait until the groups do their professional work and then comment.

Calm down WhalePFE. It was proably "authorised" so as to stop all the wild speculation. All names were removed. No harm done. At least we now have the facts as far as they are known at this stage. The rest will come later.

They would havve been on the modified tank-to-engine procedure. All boost pumps on and 1 & 4 crossfeeds open. The low pressure lights would have been quite obvious to the capt. and fe if the pumps were off.

Not only that, but the engine pumps will feed the engines up to about FL 280 for an un-modified 747 classic, and up to FL 350 with some Boeing mod they cooked up years ago.

(Not sure if the above is true on take-off power, but at least in cruise that is the story)

Wonder how much those guys could see that early in the morning?

Every time I have take off with flowers from Bogota it has been pitch black and I sure as hell would not be able to pick out a field to "land" in.

Had a few compressor stalls just after t/o from Bogota in the dark, and they scared the crap out of me, can't imagine the joy of loosing 2 engines just after t/o between those hills.

Hat off to the crew, hell of a job....

Got this today, turns out to be a two engine failure, not three. Still, a miracle they survived.


Dear Fellow Kalitta Air Crewmembers from your Captain Representative:

When I accepted the position of Captains representative, I did so
because I felt the need to help. I never imagined that "helping"
would included visiting fellow crewmembers in the hospital, but that
is what myself and Bill Gonzales and Dan Gardner, along with Gene
Sowell have been doing here in Bogota, Columbia for the last few
days. We have been here representing the Union, your Union, and doing
whatever is needed for the guys, including helping them dress. I can
tell you first hand that these guys went through hell and have the
bruises to show for it! This crew, all of them, did everything
possible in the face of extreme adversity.

What I can tell you now, I will as follows; The operating crew was
Bryant Beebe as Capt., Ivan Danka as F/O, Joe Kendall as F/E. Steve
Szynkowski was sitting in the aft observers seat. The two loadmaster,
Mo & Jimmy were sitting on the left and Frank Holly & Richard Dunlap
were on the right. Everything, life, was normal until just after
rotation. It was then, as described in all accounts, the number four
engine failed. Immediately, as briefed and as set up on the FMS Fix
page, the crew proceeded with the "special engine out procedure".
However before any checklist could be accomplished or turns back to
the airport, it appears that number one engine failed. It was then
that years of experience demonstrated by cool and matter of fact
thinking lead them to the "dark spot" on the ground. Everyone knew
what was happening, that they would soon be landing "off airport"
because they just didn't have the thrust to get them back. All they
could do was not stall the airplane and try and hit wings level in
the shallowest descent possible and that is what happened. The impact
and the seconds following were described as surreal. When things came
to a stop reality set in and now all that mattered was getting out
and getting the injured to the hospital. As you can imagine
everything was in a disarray. The ceiling was now the floor, the "L"
windows were now the "R" windows and there was no discernible way
out. Frank Holly used a fire extinguisher and the the crash ax after
it was located, to bust out the L1 window. Steve, Joe and Bryant were
removed via a backboard and the others exited on their on and were
all taken to the hospital. Amazingly, Mo & Jimmy were basically
unhurt while Frank had slight injuries and Richard was pinned in his
seat until the rescue workers were able to free him. Richard suffers
from large and numerous bruises, a fractured lumbar and tail bone.
Bryant initially walked on his own to the back to check on everyone
else after releasing himself from his seat upside down but soon
discovered that he had moderate back injuries and is now physically
recovering as expected, but wearing a back brace. Ivan broke his nose
again and was readmitted to the hospital only to discover that he has
a cracked lumbar and is in a back brace. The nurses say, in Spanish,
he looks like a Panda Bear and I told them to stay away from Bears.
Steve severely injured his back/spine. He is very alert but in pain
and will be facing a long recovery period in which his mobility is in
question. I was able to spend over 30 minutes alone with him and
assured him that if he needed his house in Atlanta modified so he can
get around that WE would see to it. Now Joe. Joe was injured the
worst and was found out of his seat lying on the ceiling, conscience.
He was given the portable O2 mask and First Aid rendered. Joe had
surgery as previously reported and is in a induced coma to aid in his
healing. We all know Joe as a strong, tough, stubborn guy and with
OUR PRAYERS and the excellent care he is receiving he will recover.
The next 48 hours will tell a lot and hopefully all can be
transported back to the USA soon as to ease the burden on their
families, who are all here now.

Guys, all I can say is PLEASE PRAY for Joe, Steve, Bryant, Ivan,
Richard, Frank, Mo and Jimmy. Pray for their physical well being as
well as their emotional well being. What they experienced, I wish on
no one. There is guilt over the lives lost on the ground and what
effect this will have on OUR company. When able I will get addresses
for all so you can express your feelings to them. Also don't forget
that Bob, Steve and Luis from 704 went through similar feelings and a
word of encouragement to all of them would be nice.

Remember.... .FLY SAFE, STAY STRONG and DEMONSTRATE your
PROFESSIONALISM to ALL!


Fraternally,

Mack McCurry

Rob rilly: that post is meant for the private consumption of the fellow crewmembers and friends of those involved not meant to be posted on a public forum.

Thanks' TowerDog . . . . .However to ExRAFboy, - that is all well and good info, but the hypothetical question of post #221 was - with respective boost pumps on "off" (and all crossfeeds otherwise normal for t/o), will the outboard engines run a 8,600ft altitude t/o roll and departure?

I know that they will when from sea level, because years ago (although it was daylight), bonehead me did just that!

The fuel pressure lights would glow, but they would glow dim (if dim selected) and if everyone had their eyes up front, they could be missed.

L-38,

JMHO's here; your hypothetical question "would they keep running at take-off power is problematical at best.

I had a classmate who was let go because he believed the ground school teaching that "suction" fuel at climb power would work with boost pumps off and the crossfeed closed. He was arguing with the mechanic on the jump seat about whether or not it would keep running, so he decided to show him by killing the boost pumps and closing the crossfeed (i.e. isolating the engine from a pressure fuel source.)

The engine quit before under something like FL180 so: he lost that argument.

Very interesting pacplyer . . . a lot can be learned from this.

I am also curious as to if the FE's seat had failed during the extreme stresses of that crash landing. Our FE would have been locked front and center with the pilots, yet he is reported to have suffered the most.

Also, I have always wondered on how useless a crash ax would be if needed. I was absolutely amazed at our crew's success of picking through the thickly laminated L1 windscreen (note the pictured failed attempt on the L-2).

. .While attending a ground school at Flying Tigers many years ago, I recall that they had an old DC-8 windscreen set on wooden blocks behind the mx hanger. Anyone with their nose out of joint was welcomed to have a go at it with it's accompanied sledge hammer. . . .During many years of abuse, that windscreen was proven to be most indestructible.

Whatever works, but I would suspect that an easier go would be to use the ax on the aircraft's interior skin like a can opener. I have always wanted to try that, however I have absolutely no clue as to it's difficulty!

ur FE would have been locked front and center with the pilots,

Not if he was still trying to get those engines running on the panel.....

Another thought: Is the fuel vender used by multiple airlines? Did they continue fueling aircraft after this happened?
We used to do "fuel sampling" on taxi out overseas; we would configure the fuel panel to first sample the center tank and then sample each main tank before take off. This took several minutes and was hard to do on a short taxi.

Yes I agree, that O2 mystery is solved. I too thought that maybe the crashaxe (which security doesn't believe we have when you tell em about it after they take away your nail clippers) was an antiquated holdover from the prop days but I guess I was wrong. A Long time ago a (Southern Airlines?) DC-9 F/O slid off the runway forgetting to power the rudder and brakes IIRC, forgot to depressurize the cabin (open the outflow valves) for the evac, nobody could get out.... so he took the crashaxe and tried to evac by taking a herculean swing at one of the windscreens.

It bounced and nailed him right in the forehead. :ooh: That's were I lost faith in some of the on board survival equipment...

A Long time ago a (Southern Airlines?) DC-9 F/O slid off the runway forgetting to power the rudder and brakes IIRC, forgot to depressurize the cabin (open the outflow valves) for the evac, nobody could get out.... so he took the crashaxe and tried to evac by taking a herculean swing at one of the windscreens.

It bounced and nailed him right in the forehead. That's were I lost faith in some of the on board survival equipment...

It was worse than that... the way I heard it, they lost a generator, disconnected the wrong CSD, then made a battery-only approach in which they spotted the wrong runway, which was quite a bit too short.....

No need to get emotionally terrorized. The crew members' names were published in the Miami Herald July 8TH. See post #83 of this Thread. :ooh:

The crew members were identified by Kalitta as U.S. citizens Joseph Kendall, 59, Valrico, Fla; Steve Szynkowski, 28, McDonough, Ga.; Richard Dunlap, 65, Marietta, Ga.; Mohamed Shah, Coral Springs, 30; Bryant Beebe, 51, Big Pine Key, Fla.; Ivan Dankha, 49, Surprise, Ariz., and Frank Holley, 45, Milton, Fla., as well as Dominican national Jimmy Herrera, 45, Miami.

How about the author of the letter? His name was not removed either. Ask him how many phone calls he has been getting! Not good!!!!

Where are the moderators?

That very same letter is posted on every other aviation forum, and I have received it in my personal email twice already, it's in wide circulation, not just on PPrune.

Was Bryant B. at ASA back in the early nineties?

ExRAF, Junk !

Better call half the Newspapers in the US and tell them your complaints. Names are out there everywhere. 4 of them are longtime friends of mine.

I've been following this thread and don't have a dog in this fight...But in this day, with emails and internet, if anything is sent out I presume it would become public very quickly.

Security through obscurity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_through_obscurity)

ExRAF,
All the names were in several Florida papers....................I also recieved atleast 10 e-mails with them. THANK GOD I did read the paper and found out 4 of the 8 are friends of mine. Now, back under your rock please....

I can imagine because that interoffice memo was posted here, and because the author of that memo is getting deluged by calls, that will be the last written update they give to their employees. Nice going Skippy.

WindSuck,

I guess you cant read ! IT'S all over the internet !!!! Do you need to be hand fed ??

My, my, aren't we upset about something? Hmm?

It looks like it started here, everywhere I've seen it they state they got from here. If you work for Kalitta, you better wish they don't check on who leaked it first to the web forums. Yourrrr in trouble now! :)

Can any one post whats really important here and provide any information on how the crew is doing. All I have heard is that there was a lot of spine and head trauma. Does anyone know where we might be able to send the families our best wishes?

Out here in the dark.:ugh:

Everyone is back in the states, either home or in a hospital close to home. If the crew/famlies give the ok, we'll get something posted so as to contact them. I am sure the guys would appreciate some encouraging words.

Thanks for the information.

I guess you cant read ! IT'S all over the internet !!!! Do you need to be hand fed ??

rob rilley:

Adult 101: Here is the deal. Don’t name names. Give a synopsis, even link to the source article. What most of us are looking for is information, not personal suffering. There is a fine line, but a pretty clear one.

Oh Brother ! Whatever ! I'm just sorry I posted it first, I wish you had done it first as you normally do. Ho hum.......... Did anyone ever say anything to the poster who put pictures, that showed the blood spilt ? I think not !!!!! get over yourself......

I just want to digress and comment.

Despite all our differences, I think it's important to realize that all posters here are an important component of Aviation Safety. Problems don't get fixed when doing "business as usual." Accidents are multi-faceted and complex and deserve to be examined from all angles even if certain lines of questioning, postings and assumptions turn out to be dead ends. Why hopefully, even the press can read and learn something here and realize that things are not as simple as they appear on the surface and that in reality, incredible, brave and professional individuals report for duty under difficult circumstances and in most cases ensure perfect safety (especially as when you consider the deaths per seat mile of all alternative modes of transport) and should be all commended as heros to the profession.

I myself, am proud to have been a small part of the development of today's testament to aviation safety, and marvel at the resourcefulness of todays professionals and companies who operate in much more adverse conditions than we faced in my day. Godspeed Connie Kalitta, Guppy, ExRAFboy, robriley, walepfe and others and the crews of the ill fated accidents.

It's been a real pleasure to converse with you Gentlemen, and I must say, that I have learned a great deal from this thread. My hat is off to the moderators for permitting such a controversial and informative thread.

pacific plyer - over and out

Very well said - and I second the motion!

I guess you cant read ! IT'S all over the internet !!!! Do you need to be hand fed ??


Yes, it is all over the internet. Thanks to folks like you. Highly unprofessional. Nice going.

It is cool to be able to BS back and forth on these websites, because nobody knows who you are and you have a fancy screen name and all. It's cool to speculate and get to be an expert on a certain subject, but the problem, like with this accident, is when sensitive information, pictures, etc. gets leaked. It pisses the NTSB off and they don't have to let other intrested parties be a "party" to the investigation. The NTSB are very qualified and have the expertise and resources to do an investigation and then they publish their findings so everyone can learn from it. That is the whole mechanics behind the NTSB. It is unfortunate that we have some among our own ranks that have jeopardized are ability to be a "party" to another investigation. God willing, it won't be an issue. But, maybe some others should take note, if you find yourself in a similar situation. I hope not!

WhalePFE

Five of the eight thanked you for posting the union letter on a public board? I don't believe that...and even the author of that letter has been very unhappy with it's posting...but you're justifying your stupidity and unprofessional behavior by stating that others have thanked you for doing the wrong thing?

You must be proud.

5 of the 8 are good friends of mine and thanked me for posting.


Interesting. Now it's five a few days ago it was four as your longtime friends. Soon enough they'll all be your drinking buddies. And it still won't justify what you did. Even if they all kiss your feet and say thanks. By the by...none of them authored that letter, did they?

Better call half the Newspapers in the US and tell them your complaints. Names are out there everywhere. 4 of them are longtime friends of mine.

unprofessional? I'm an old man and forgot one of the names I flew with long ago, so no problem for me as it is you.

Name calling? I never called you any names. So, it seems you are the very immature unprofessional one.

Sure, prove your statement that anyone is upset other than you.

Yes, I was visiting one of the injured crew over the weekend, and what did you do ? Think up names to call the aviation professionals ? An YES , I am PROUD !


You are a true joke, guppy.

Ok folks, points made.

Back on topic please.


Duck

Has there been any more information as to the cause of the 2 engines
failing??? There was an AF A340 that twice had an engine problem out
of Bogota this past weekend. Probably unrelated Guppy, before you start,
but, is there a source for engine contamination down there???

The AF A340 had to dump fuel and return to BOG flight due to a (false) indication that RT was not locked noticed 40 minutes into the flight. On the second departure the same A340 returned to the gate once it was taxing. It seems to me like any relation of these incidents and the Kalitta accident is far fetched.

Whale PFE post 20th July 2008 12:37
Aviation Safety
It is cool to be able to BS back and forth on these websites, because nobody knows who you are and you have a fancy screen name and all. It's cool to speculate and get to be an expert on a certain subject, but the problem, like with this accident, is when sensitive information, pictures, etc. gets leaked. It pisses the NTSB off and they don't have to let other intrested parties be a "party" to the investigation. The NTSB are very qualified and have the expertise and resources to do an investigation and then they publish their findings so everyone can learn from it. That is the whole mechanics behind the NTSB. It is unfortunate that we have some among our own ranks that have jeopardized are ability to be a "party" to another investigation. God willing, it won't be an issue. But, maybe some others should take note, if you find yourself in a similar situation. I hope not!

WhalePFE

Whale PFE, one last post,

Strange, I noticed most of your past posts conversing with me have been deleted again for some reason. You make a good point here again imho. The NTSB, if they are invited by the host country, can in turn invite other interested parties into the investigation. But none of the posters here can control leaks which obviously originated in the host country. Who else had access to the cockpit of this aircraft? Was it secured at night? I noticed daylight in the photos so the authorities should have had time to post a guard. Also the shoes are evident in one of the pictures of the person standing on the roof circuit breaker panel.

Blaming the public for commenting on published news reports or pictures put up available to the public is a little far-fetched. Wouldn't you say? :O I mean, what do you recommend? That we pretend we didn't see those those pictures put up? That we not comment until the investigation is over? Is that what you're suggesting? :confused: I do see your point and do not necessarily disagree with you that a hard-working NTSB team might take exception to the photos and info being released before they have even had a chance to chase down all the leads. But how can mere readers prevent this? We can't. :bored:

Personally, I think squelching discussion is a futile wish in the internet age. Double engine failures are interesting to many, I think, because they are so rare and unlikely. There have been other boeing aircraft with double engine failures. The "BA038 (777) AAIB Report" thread discussed parallel to this thread comes to mind.

I haven't read all of it, but in that thread an interesting bit of information regarding various Boeing/Pratt engine problems along the line of L-38's "boost pumps off by mistake" hypothetical is in there.

Air Safety Week April 23, 2001:

Yet another pilot recalled his experience in a 747-100 some years ago. Climbing through 20,000 feet, the number 4 engine either flamed out or was shut down after a frighteningly loud compressor stall. In any event, the crew quickly discovered that all the boost pumps were off (the flight engineer had not turned any of them on) and the engine apparently could not suction feed above 20,000 feet.

"Most folks that I've discussed it with have found it hard to believe that the engine would not run on suction feed," this pilot recounted. "I assure you that this was the case..."

This Link starts on page 2 of the article:
Total Loss of Engine Power Mystifies Experts | Air Safety Week | Find Articles at BNET (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0UBT/is_17_15/ai_73578123/pg_2?tag=artBody;col1)

I (pacplyer) should point out that I'm no expert on anything. I'm just a reader. The above post, just as all my posts are: are strictly my opinion only. I could be wrong about everything and my memory is not very good anymore. This is what happens when you retire. You sit around women and talk about airplanes all the time for some strange reason... :8

Cheers