Donington : the heliport from hell ?

[JimBall]

With the Brit GP moving to Donington in a couple of years, how will the massive heliport operation fit in with East Midlands Airport ?

How will 1200+ movements fit around the constantly expanding East Midlands commercial traffic ?

Or will fuel be so expensive by 2010 that there will be no flying or racing left for oil-powered machines ?

[oldbeefer]

I believe that movements at Silverstone are considerably less now that the roads have been improved. I would guess that with Donn being so close to East Midlands and the M1 that the need for helis will be even less?

[Bravo73]

I would guess that with Donn being so close to East Midlands and the M1 that the need for helis will be even less?

Traffic at major events at Donny Park can still be a nightmare. I can remember traffic being stuck for hours on the M1 due to the MotoGP a couple of years ago.

The current arrangements for a heliport at Donny Park are pretty useless. You can only hope that the new(ish) owners of DP will come up with a new plan after detailed consultation with East Mids ATC. (FWIW, the new owners are certainly very 'heli-friendly'.)

There's no reason that with sensible 'traffic flow control' through the zone, a plan should be workable which won't disrupt the FW traffic into East Mids. The East Mids ATCOs are certainly capable enough! :D


Edited to add: Although thinking about it, I guess that a lot of the punters will now be able to come into East Mids via private jet or even Easyjet. So maybe the demand for helis will drop off significantly... :O Although saying that, if you want to come direct from central London (ie Battersea), then a heli will obviously be your only option. :)

[HeliCraig]

I roughly echo what B73 said. With the obvious proximity of EMA, perhaps the number of heli movements for the GP will fall.

However, having flown in their earlier this year I think they will need more than the current "square" they have fenced off for the purpose!! Of course I am sure this will be one of the whole raft of facilities which they'll have promised to improve in time for 2010. Wonder what this makes of Silverstone's plans for a new paddock area which were in the papers earlier this week?

I fly into a few of the motor racing circuits to watch my brother race bikes (or I did until he broke his Collar Bone last weekend! :rolleyes:), and Donnington is 1 of only 2 who don't charge!! Quite how MSV (owners of Brands, Snetterton etc) come up with the £50 they charge to land I do not know. I suppose that Donnington will be charging for GP day, it'd be madness not to!

I am sure, though, that the ATC'ers at EMA will fit everyone in - they are one of the friendliest and most helpful lot I have ever spoken to...

... should be interesting come 2010.

Have fun those flying this weekend. Only next years briefing to do!!

[G-CPTN]

Wikimapia - Let's describe the whole world! (http://wikimapia.org/#lat=52.8284912&lon=-1.36415&z=15&l=0&m=s&v=2)

[AllyPally]

If East Midlands have any business sense they will arrange a temporary road from the airport direct to the track - it only looks a mile or so on the aerial picture and with the runway extended centreline going through/very near the track I would be very surprised if there is any need for helicopter traffic.

AP

[Bravo73]

AP,

Although East Mids can obviously cater for any traffic from other airfields, there are still plenty of punters who will want to travel from either their back garden or central London. There will still be a demand for heli operations but potentially at much reduced levels.

Lots of the heli shuttle services also run from local(ish), large hotels. But I guess that lots of shuttle operators will offer FW services from UK airfields. But how many slots can East Mids handle on raceday?

I'd be interested to hear Chilli Monster's opinion on the matter. :ok: Are you there, Chilli?

[Upland Goose]

If they extend the track, about a half mile to the east ,they can have a 9800ft straight - that should keep the top speed fans happy!

Looks like Bernie is making a point against the BRDC and the next couple of years will see construction misery in the EMA area - one two way road feeding the circuit and airport will be hopeless. If you are going on holiday don't choose the GP weekend and if you work there, take a sickie because it will be gridlock.

Me - I shall watch it all on TV unless they remove the age 60 rule for SP Ops in which case I shall probably be there "kerb sniffing" up the Shepshed Lane.

Try Rotoring - beats motoring.

UG:ok:

[Arfur Feck-Sake]

What and where is Costock? I hear helicopters going in there and know it's very near to the airport. Is it a potential facility/factor?

[Beamish Boy]

What about 'helitelly' pictures during the race? The helicopter should be above the track for the best view of any racing incidents.

[Bravo73]

What and where is Costock? I hear helicopters going in there and know it's very near to the airport. Is it a potential facility/factor?

Costock is the operating base for East Midlands Helicopters.

It's about 9 miles due east of the airport so no, it couldn't be used directly for the GP. But I'm sure that they will be selling fuel on the day...

[Bravo73]

What about 'helitelly' pictures during the race? The helicopter should be above the track for the best view of any racing incidents.

Helis are used for a data link for the MotoGP. It's all co-ordinated with East Mids ATC (obviously) and IIRC, sits in the hover over the track at about 3000ft.

Other heli traffic over the track just moves out of the way when there is a departure from East Mids. But I suppose that the track might try and negotiate a 'no departures during the 3 hours of the race' deal with the airport operator in order to facilitate things. Good luck to them if they do!

[ShyTorque]

Knowing what a problem a single heli going in to the Donington Park HLS can cause to ATC at EMA and to their departures off 27, this has all the makings of a real fun day..... one worth avoiding like the plague :}

[Whirlygig]

Helis are used for a data link for the MotoGPI think he knows that!!!

However, for the Silverstone Grand Prix, heliteli is used for more than up/down links so the query is whether that will be affected when/if the F1 GP moves to Donington.

Cheers

Whirls

[Bravo73]

I think he knows that!!!


Huh? Who says he knows that, Whirls? U being mean to me? :ouch:

I was just pointing out that helis already operate over the track during race days, at multiple levels. (ie high up for the datalink and lower down for filming.)


:p

[almost professional]

Thanks for the kind words about EMA ATC!
could make for some interesting discussions/planning over the next 18months-above my pay grade though-would guess that much traffic will go to FW and try to use the airport proper, thats along the lines of what happened in 1993
the aerial cameras are not major problem, we have fair amount of experience with this at other events and providing WX is OK, and good cooperation from the platforms then runs smoothly, might still be booking my leave now though!
(leave the hard work for Chilli!)

[Daysleeper]

Simple really

Race is at a weekend so DHL facility will be quiet, thus a vast paved heli parking area is available at the correct end of the airfield. A small temporary bridge (there is already an airfield service road going the right way) from EMA to DP and a few tens of golf buggies to ferry the pax around and it looks a snap.

[ShyTorque]

B73, I fink BB's one of the ones wot duz it for a living.... ;)

[Bravo73]

Daysleeper,

Your idea is far too sensible :D to ever see the light of day. :(

But if EMA/DP can get DHL onside, your idea has got to be worth investigating. Hopefully, Chilli Monster will get around to reading this thread at some point. If not, it might be worth sending him a PM with your idea. :ok:

[Bravo73]

B73, I fink BB's one of the ones wot duz it for a living.... ;)

So I've just been told! Ooops. :O Sorry for the egg sucking lessons, BB.

But in my defence, m'lud, BB's profile doesn't give many clues about his actual profession... ;)

[chriswhi]

Helis are used for a data link for the MotoGP

The data links & in car cameras for the GP are now don by ground pickup (the digital age) so only one heli for airborne camera now

[Whirlygig]

Not always!! It depends on the lie of the land!!

Cheers

Whirls

[ShyTorque]

To use that far end of the field will need the permission of the wife of the owner of a big white jet...... and she often flies on sundays (or will want to if she's told she can't :oh: ).

[chriswhi]

Whirly,

That used to be the case with analogue links but with the advent of CODFM digital links the more multipath (i.e. terain problerms) the better, you just put in more ground stations.

Also with a heli 'mid point' each car had to be selected as to which was required at the time and only a limited number of cars could be linked at one time, but with ground pickup you could in theory have every car available all the time (with sufficient ground channels)

So its the end of sitting at 3000' on the edge of vortex ring (I have done that a lot as an ITV Links engineer and PPLH)

Cheers

[chriswhi]

What do I mean, nearer 1500 ft (nosebleed at 3000 !!!!!!)

[Whirlygig]

There are still some racetracks where it's still preferable to use a helicopter for the rebroadcast links. Whilst I appreciate ground links are used in many cases, they are not used in all cases; Oulton Park being one!

Cheers

Whirls

[chriswhi]

Whirly,

I suspect that is more to do with legasy equipment that good state of the art technical practice, Oulton Park is a small flatish circuit which would very much suit ground pickup, and due to the type of races there does not require lots of cars available at once. However heli midpoint mat be cost effective which is not the case at Grand Prix level

Cheers

[Daysleeper]

To use that far end of the field will need the permission of the wife of the owner of a big white jet...... and she often flies on sundays (or will want to if she's told she can't ).

Hmm yeah I know what you mean...

however if we just use the DHL stands for parking then that still gives a conservative minimum of 650m X 60m parking area and still have space for a GV to taxi from the western hanger to A10

Can then use taxiway B as a temporary heli runway for those requiring Public transport performance (could have 350m permanently available and 650 when the big white jet is gone) With approach and departure from the south (to the west of diseworth village) you can probably have 09R/27L in operation with little effect on jet ops on the main which is 230m from the heli runway and has a displaced threshold.

Any DHL aircraft in for the weekend (and there's usually one or two) can operate from the 120s stands at the eastern end of their building.

Biz jets can go on the Eastern Apron.

Now I bet some consultant ends up getting paid vast sums of money to do a 2 year project that ends up looking something like this :rolleyes:

[EESDL]

Wouldn't be Bernie per chance?
Road link to Donny is a nightmare - worse than Silverstone prior to government road upgrade.......things need to happen soon on the planning permission front if suitable access to be achieved in time for 2010.
Then again Brands has previously 'won' rights to host f1 before improvements thwarted and race ended up back at Towcester!
All stinks to me....announcing it just before such a big celebration for Silverstone.....
Ecclestone loves F1, indeed he loves anything that generates him more 'F-ing' money

[500e]

:D:D:D:D:D with you EESDL

[scooter boy]

"If East Midlands have any business sense they will arrange a temporary road from the airport direct to the track"

Great thought but I bet security risk assessment (breaching the airport boundary etc...) would kill that idea before it was born.
Also - the 4x4 cross country taxi service would not be able to be charged at £90pp if it only took one minute (like it is from Turweston to Silverstone if you fly in tomorrow!)

Part of me is extremely happy that a certain angry Silverstone farmer whose land is crossed by the 4x4 route from Turweston will not be making a killing charging people to cross his land from 2010 onwards....hehehe! He may have to go back to .. er... farming for a living. :D

IMHO the close proximity of the motorway and East Midlands Airport are significant reasons for Donnington being chosen. Other main reason may just be wee mopheaded Warhol specs Bernie E trousering an enormous sum out of the deal.

SB

[mickjoebill]

A fixed wing aircraft as used in rallying and tour de france is an option, it can operate at up to 20,000ft.

Then a dedicated camera ship could operate as low as 750ft if considered safe.

If it could operate at 750ft would it be in the clear of traffic from the airport?


Mickjoebill

[ShyTorque]

If it could operate at 750ft would it be in the clear of traffic from the airport?


I'm more than a little surprised by that question. I would think an aircraft operating at 750 feet, less than a mile out on the upwind end of the runway would definitely be in the way of departing aircraft.

[mickjoebill]

I'm more than a little surprised by that question. I would think an aircraft operating at 750 feet, less than a mile out on the upwind end of the runway would definitely be in the way of departing aircraft.

Didn't realise it was that close!


Mickjoebill

[ShyTorque]

It is! Type in Isley Walton:

Get-a-map from Ordnance Survey (http://getamap.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/getamap/frames.htm)

[chevvron]

So where do they propose to put the heliport at Donington Park? Less than 1/2 mile off the end of East Midlands runway and directly in line with it; Cat 3 ILS's and very busy.

[332mistress]

This has already been discussd in an earlier thread

332M

[VfrpilotPB/2]

I have a feeling that the little builder he with the giant wife, is putting a shot just across the bow of the BRDC, if they started digging and building now this very minute and worked non-stop until the proposed day of the Donnington F1, they would not have that race track ready to accept the F1 circus, it needs new pits, new parking for the giant transporters, new carparks for us lot, in fact new everything........... Nope, it will not be ready.
Donnington is really only fit for "Tin Tops" and Motorcycles, but.. knowing how fond our little builder is of the green and brown folding stuff he will not put the money he already earns from the F1 in any sort of jepordy, my feeling is it will be with Silverstone for quiet a long time yet!

Peter R-B

[EESDL]

Whilst Donington backer has bought the right to promote F1 in UK, nowhere in the deal did it say that it will be at Donington.
Champagne glasses filled, deal signed on table, then Bernie asks -
" So where are you planning to hold the F1 GP"
"Here at Donington!" says businessman.
"I will decide that, as I have to approve the track/facilities etc" says Bernie - "my team will be in touch Monday........"

Laughed my ***k off, Brands all over again.

[JimBall]

Frank Williams is quoted today saying that he will only believe that a GP will happen at Donington when he actually goes there for a GP.............. get your smoke 'n' mirrors on eBay now.

Before Bernie buys them all up.