Deck Ops

[generalspecific]

Looks like I will be training for ferrying to and from a private yacht. Not having done this before.. any tips from those with experience?

[vortexadminman]

yeah double,triple,quadruple check that the ship is actually where is says it is before leaving dry land. Navy were very good at giving LAT LONG and then buggering off while you were in transit.:ok:

[generalspecific]

good point!! Luckily its beach runs and general frivolity round the islands.. no long wanders out to sea I am glad to say..

[PO dust devil]

It's not just Navy types, Africans are bad for disappearing from where you expected them to be.....I was let down after actually ringing a floater for confirmation and speaking to the radio operator 20 mins before ETD. Fortunately the 40 mile difference was actually closer to our departure point and by co-incidence on the track. Only trouble was that we had TOO much fuel then.

Watch for deck cleats and tie down points.


DD

[FFF]

generalspecific, check your PM's

[John Eacott]

GS,

Just a thought, but will someone be training or checking you on ship ops? Not just the issues already mentioned, but basics such as departure techniques, landing procedures, wind over deck requirements, etc.

It's not a black art, but there are a few issues that can trip up newcomers if they're not aware :ok:

[generalspecific]

Thanks for all the advice.. well noted.. will have a full check out prior to commencement including practice approaches to the boat that will be used sans passengers or guests on boat so that only the check captain gets to see my screw ups.. appreciate all of the advice..

[Oogle]

General

Sounds like a good gig. A couple of points:

Get an idea of the superstructure of the boat as this will dictate the turbulence you can expect. Depending on the aircraft you are flying, get the ship to steer about 20 deg off from the wind. This will give you a uniform wind over the helideck.

Don't muck around too much in the hover when over the helideck as the turbulence mentioned above will mix with your downwash and make it uncomfortable. It all depends on the design of the ship.

Have the deckhands briefed on helicopter ops. Doesn't take long but worth its weight in gold.

Lastly, however much you are pushed, don't let the boss talk you into something you are not happy to do.

Have fun.

[I'm Off!]

When you do your check-out, get the yacht to manouevre onto a selection of flying courses, so you can try a few different wind directions and deck pitch/roll conditions - it can make a huge amount of difference to how easy/hard/comfortable/uncomfortable it all is!!

[spankymonkey]

Advice for DLs

If the deck's moving around a lot, bring a good co-pilot - good deck landings are all in the con you know.

[Brian Abraham]

If the deck's moving around a lot, bring a good co-pilot - good deck landings are all in the con you know.
Having done the odd deck landing or two I have no idea how a co-pilot is going to help out. Please elaborate.

[alouette3]

Having done the odd deck landing too---allow me.
As the helicopter hovers over the deck, the co pilot provides positional inputs---"cons"---to the pilot flying. Timely inputs such as "touch forward/left/right/aft/ steady" etc. go a long way in improving the pilot's ability to put the helicopter down on the desired spot on the helo deck.
The other very important guy on teh deck is the marshaller. He sees more of the aircraft than the pilots do. I would take his signals as mandatory rather than advisory.
Happy Landings!
Alt3.
P.S: As an aside (and if the moderators will permit me) here is a laugh line:
The most overrated and underrated things in the world are an orgasm and a good bowel movement,respectively. And during a tough landing on a ship it is possible to have both at the same time!!

[Mark Six]

I'm not convinced about this conning business. Please explain what it is that the co-pilot can perceive about the aircraft's position in relation to the landing area that the flying pilot can't? Isn't the landing area painted with a big circle and a "H" and maybe even a diagonal, straight, and forward limit (cross deck) lineto help the pilot with his positioning? I would suggest that if you are depending on a co-pilot and/or marshaller for a "good" landing you shouldn't be there in the first place.
And as for taking the marshaller's signals as mandatory - no way (apart from "wave off").

[Brian Abraham]

inputs such as "touch forward/left/right/aft/ steady" etc. go a long way in improving the pilot's ability to put the helicopter down on the desired spot on the helo deck
I'd say buy the pilot a pair of glasses if he needs this sort of guidance. Or better still, a seeing eye dog, much cheaper than feeding a co-pilot. What can a co-pilot see that a pilot can't? And it certainly aint going to work on a pitching/rolling/heaving deck.

As mentioned by Oogle the ideal position to be in is to have the wind about 20° off the ships bow, off the port (left) if the helo is right seat and starboard (right) if the helo is left seat. It places the helo into wind and gives the driver a clear and unobstructed view, and depending on the nature of the ships superstructure, minimises turbulence.

Try and get guidance as to the deck pitch, roll and heave limits that the particular helo type may be subject to. It’s not something you’ll find in the flight manual. Your Aviation Authority should be able to give guidance, or point you to some one who has the necessary experience with that type helo.
Landing Gear. Skids are hopeless on board ship due to the lack of friction and you can easily find yourself slip sliding away on a steel deck when the ship rolls. A wooden slatted deck helps to give the skids something to grip. The helos inertia comes into play when the ship rolls as well. The ship rolls about a point well below the level of the helideck, so in effect the helo is being subject to whiplash, for want of a better term. Fixed floats (at least on a 205) stand up well to a pitching, rolling deck and had plenty of friction, although the rocking and rolling of the helo on the flexible floats was a bit disconcerting until you got used to it. Wheels are the best IMHO. Plenty of friction. Some people like to put nets over the deck. I’m not sure exactly of the rationale but personally I’m not a fan. Saw a 212 nearly come to grief when the rear of a skid got hooked under the net on take off. Fortunately slipped off before it became a problem. Something for pax to trip up on and if you have a hangar you can’t use a net anyway. If the rationale for a net is to restrain a wheeled undercarriage I may go along with the idea, but I never had a wheeled undercarriage slip on me.

If the ship is pitching/rolling do not even think about winding throttle off until the helo is secured to the deck with tie downs. Same, same if you are cranking up, don’t unstrap tie downs until all checks are done and ready to pull pitch. And make absolutely sure that all tie downs are undone before pitch pull. A good deck crew who know what they are on about are a god send and absolutely essential when working on a pitching/rolling deck.
The particular helo will have features that either enhances or detracts the deck experience. The lower the disc loading the more you get bounced around in the superstructure turbulence, increasing the control difficulties. High centre of gravity also makes life more difficult, as does a narrow track on the landing gear. One thing about a skid equipped helo is its ability to walk sideways across a rolling deck if shut down and unrestrained (due alternate flexing of the skids with weight transference as the ship rolls).

If the deck is pitching/rolling and you are patient you will find a moment when the deck movement quietens down. That is the moment to make your landing/take off. Do so positively, don’t **** about. If landing don’t get into an extended hover over the deck because you’ll end up chasing the deck and can be almost guaranteed an over torque/over temp and possibly a hard landing. I used to find that after about every seventh wave you would find a quiet period in which to make the take off/landing. Remember too that once you go over the deck edge on take off you are instantly in OGE territory.
Should the ship be at anchor it may be tide ridden and you’ll have to contend with a wind coming from any point of the compass. It may very well be that the landing has to be conducted with the tail pointing towards the superstructure and you looking over the stern. Have it all checked out before hand, do I have the necessary clearances, markings on the deck to enable super accurate positioning etc.

If the ship is under way and punching into a sea you will find the ship makes a weird cork screwing motion as it pitches and rolls. If you have the ability to get the master of the vessel to change course it is often beneficial to have him run down sea, which of course generally means down wind as well. It’s really surprising how quiet the deck becomes if you have this ability. This of course then may entail a tail towards superstructure landing. Remember you are not much interested in the “real” wind but in the apparent wind relative to the ship. If the ship is running downwind at 20 knots in a 20 knot wind you obviously have zero wind on the deck. Theoretically that would mean you could make an approach from any direction you liked but I would still make it into the “real” wind if there were no other over arching concerns (eg the ship may be running downwind at 20 knots where the “real” wind is 10 knots. That then puts the apparent wind at 10 knots on the ships nose).

If working blue water (away from land) don't rely on the ship to be at a given position at a given time. Essential aids here are a gps, reliable comms with the ship at all times, VHF homer and an absolutely reliable person manning the comms. Don't ask me how I know.

As with all things there is more than one way to skin a cat and people have different ideas, but the above seemed to work for me - with no co-pilot or marshaller.

PS The quote actually is,
The three best things in life are:
- a good landing,
- a good orgasm,
- a good bowel movement.
The night carrier landing is one of the few opportunities in life to experience all three at the same time.

[PO dust devil]

Having done the odd ship landing myself I'll go with Brian for the deck ops and the three in one event!:ok:
DD

[Non-PC Plod]

Lots of good advice above. But if I were you, if you have no experience of DLs, try it first with the ship stopped, with no pitch or roll (ideally, at anchor). Get used to the size of the deck, and where your hover references are before you think about doing them under way. Also, double (and triple) check all the tie-downs are off before you try to take off, and make sure the deck is clear of FOD and random sight-see-ers before you try to land.

[Agaricus bisporus]

FOD includes sun-loungers and towels on yachts - and they can come over the superstructure from the foredeck - especially when the former occupant has just got up to gaze at the steely-eyed hero showing his skill on the heli-deck.

A plastic lounger can get airborne in less than 10 Kts of wind...

[R.OCKAPE]

He shouldn't have too much trouble... Its an R44 on a boat that can't take anything much larger and normally anchored in sheltered waters

[I'm Off!]

If the deck's moving around a lot, bring a good co-pilot - good deck landings are all in the con you know


Spankymonkey - all I can say is bol**cks. And anyone who trusts a marshaller has clearly never done it before either. That's why there are markings on the deck.

[Brian Abraham]

Not that easy sandy. The limits in the manual are for a helo landing on terra firma wich has plenty of friction and doesn't move. Not a bucking bronco where a coating of ice would probably provide more friction (in the case of skids).

[Fareastdriver]

By God, Brian Abraham, I've been landing on various decks for forty two years and never realised it was so dangerous! Admittedly I have probably had a lot more power on tap than you had.

QUOTE]A good deck crew who know what they are on about are a god send and absolutely essential when working on a pitching/rolling deck.
[/QUOTE]

Where are you going to find a good deck crew on a VIP yacht, especially in the Carribean? All they are good for is poncing about with trays of bubbly.

generalspecific. When you get there stick to what you know you can do because when you arrive you are on your own.

Sandyhelmet. In my Ops manual the limits for decks are 3 degrees pitch or roll. On dry land it is 10 or 8.

[Brian Abraham]

I've been landing on various decks for forty two years and never realised it was so dangerous!
You're right. Its not dangerous at all. What was I thinking. :cool:
YouTube - ch-46 crash (http://youtube.com/watch?v=WuJjEt834XM)
YouTube - Helicopter Accident (http://youtube.com/watch?v=q3idQKi5EqM)
YouTube - Australian Black Hawk Crash (http://youtube.com/watch?v=AJwwcT7MWM8)

[Oogle]

Where are you going to find a good deck crew on a VIP yacht

I know of some. ;)

I find it is easier without a marshaller. You have plenty of visual cues to guide you.

[FFF]

The deck crew are really there to help control the passengers and in case of emergencies (although with some of these decks you will be more likely to wind up in the water than crashed on deck).
They are of precious little use when it comes to marshalling - and if you really need that help then you probably shouldn't be out there flying:}

There is a bunch of trained crew out there - but how current they are is another matter.

[Spunk]

Done a couple of deck landings myself (on grey ships as well as on white ones) but this video still makes me hold my breath

Sea King (http://youtube.com/watch?v=H4MbCu_YRM4)

I guess that guy has bigger "cojones" than me. :ok:

[RVDT]

Things you do when you're running out of gas!!!!!!!!!!!!

And then there are Seahawk's (http://youtube.com/watch?v=wZSc5T-iUO4)

This stuff doesn't (shouldn't) happen on white boats.

There are extremes of everything of course, but having done a bit of both, mountain flying and landing, (above 10,000') would be up there and probably more demanding than deck landings. IMHO of course! :p

[Ned-Air2Air]

After watching the Sea King video I have a question for you ex mil guys.

In those sorts of heavy sea states where it can become bloody hard to land, what are your options. Do you just keep trying and trying til you can get it on the deck or at some point do you have to look at other options.

Just wondering.

Ned

[I'm Off!]

Options? No diversion, so options are ditch or land - I know which one I'm going to have a blo**y good go at achieving. Usually even if the deck is way out of limits there are a few tricks - getting the ship to run down sea usually quietens deck movement, although the wind can then be an issue. If you have the fuel to sit alongside the deck, ready to leap onboard as soon as a short quiet period comes along, then happy days, that's the plan!

[Brian Abraham]

Some impressive video, and at night!!! One for you Fareastdriver. What could go wrong? What could go wrong? ;)
YouTube - Helicopter Crash on Aircraft Carrier (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTqejwFJFS0&feature=related)

[Aser]

to me looks like day light...

[Lt.Fubar]

By the way those options in high seas - what are the limitations for HIFR ? Could that be used to get enough gas to jump to bigger vessel/land, or keep the bird in the air till it quiet down ?

(For military, not civvies and yachts ;) )

[Brian Abraham]

Sorry Aser, was referring to Spunks video.

[bogey@6]

genspec, some piece of advise from an old bloke..

1> while enroute study the "period" of the swell and the ripples (for wind). count the # of times the sea is heaving.

2> try to time your approach to the deck on the last swell if you are able to. the last swell is the time the boat stops heaving for a few seconds. call it sweet spot if you may. also whether you fly a frenchie or a yankee.. better to approach in a quartering fashion so you'd have good visibility and an escape route.

3> it the yacht's deck is aft-- your horizon ref would only be on your side line of sight.. so, try to get the horizon on your peripheral vision. try to have some view of horizon and deck in view. this way you'd see the deck coming up while maintaining level on horizon.

4> NEVER NEVER look down on deck.. why? your balance mech will tell your brain to correct with respect to what you see the decks attitude to be! this means, if the deck rolls to the right you'd see it as if you are rolling to the left.. and you'd be fooled to correct with a right cyclic-- THIS IS WHAT CAUSES THE VERTIGO AND DECK CONTACT!

5> if you encounter VERTIGO the procedure would be COLLECTIVE IN YOUR ARMPIT! Meaning, swallow your pride and make another approach.

6> if your machine has a cargo hook it's best to improvise a latching system from under the deck. this way even after you have removed the tiedowns there is still something securing you before you attain flight rpm. DON'T FORGET TO RELEASE THOUGH! On landing your deck guy can easily secure you from under the deck.

Yachts would definitely be smaller than tankers and tuna boats i've lived in-- so you could expect a lot more heave and roll.

First time I did Tuna boats.. I had 10yrs tanker and rig experience and it scared the sh..t out of me when it took me 2 attempts to land on a fore located deck!

Get yourself checked out if you have a chance.. nothing special to it and it's just procedure..