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Lukesdad
2nd Jul 2008, 21:12
Gentlemen

I am in the first stages of planning a trip down to Southern Spain or Gibraltar later this month or early August in our group owned AA5.

Any suggestions regarding routing and stopovers on the way down would be much appreciated.

The outline for the trip will be that two of us will fly the plane down, and then the other two owners will fly down by Easyjet and make the return trip.

AlphaMale
2nd Jul 2008, 22:27
Not sure if this might help you?

As I understand it Gibraltar no longer accept GA flights (http://www.pprune.org/forums/private-flying/315179-anyone-been-gibraltar.html)

I hope they do accept as I have friends from Uni I'd like to visit down there. :ok:

LH2
2nd Jul 2008, 23:20
What AM said about Gibraltar. There appears to be conflicting reports, so best bet is to give them a call--telephone number to be got from the CAA, or if that fails, I suggest you call the Jerez ARO office and ask them what the deal is. They appear to be the best informed of the lot as regards goings on between Spain and the Rock.

As for flying to Spain itself, no big deal. Just follow the Atlantic coast of France down to San Sebastian or Bilbao, then across to the south, or alternatively, across southern France to Perpignan or Girona, then follow the Mediterranean coast all the way south. Or whichever route you prefer, only thing to avoid is the central part of the Pyrenees. It's too high and unpredictable (esp. in the summer) so don't go there unless you have mountain experience and local knowledge.

For your planning, use the French AIP (http://www.sia.aviation-civile.gouv.fr/html/frameset_aip_fr.htm) and the Spanish AIP (http://www.aena.es/csee/Satellite?cid=1078418725020&pagename=AIS%2FHome_AIS&Language=ES_ES&SMO=1&SiteName=NavegacionAerea&Section=1&c=Page&MO=2). For your first leg and any additional legs crossing French airspace (even if departure and arrival are both outside France), use Olivia (http://olivia.aviation-civile.gouv.fr/) for getting the weather, NOTAMs, and filing your flight plans. You can do this online, or there is an Olivia terminal in most French airfields with an ATC/FISO presence.

Once in Spain, use the computers they have in every ARO office for getting the NOTAMs and filing your FPL. You could ask the people there to do this for you, but it's more courteous to do it yourself, so get someone to give you a five-minute crash course on the software if needed.

For weather, if they have an ARO office, most of the time they will have a weather man--they will usually bore you to death with all kinds of details. OTOH, they can also offer invaluable information about local weather conditions so listen to them. If there is no weather man, then whoever collects the landing fees will get any necessary reports for you via fax. Ask them.

Landing fees are ridiculously cheap by UK standards, around €8.- in France (free at many municipal airfields) and €12.- in Spain. Parking is in the order of a couple Euros per day.

Fuel can be obtained at most places and is paid for by a fuel card or a credit/debit card (personally I never tried cash). In France, quite a few places have card-operated self-service pumps. As a general rule, feel free to mention that you will be requiring fuel when asking for taxi instructions after landing (so they will know where to send you), but refrain from directly asking for fuel over the frequency, quite a few controllers don't like that. The way it works is you request it by phone or in person at the office (or just wave the fuel truck if it's around). Both in France and Spain they get their priorities right, so to avoid any frustration on your side, do not bother attempting to get fuel at lunch time (i.e., any time between 1200 and 1600 :E). Go get some lunch yourself instead.

If you've never flown outside the UK, you will need to know that controlled airspace (class C and lower anyway) is in general not to be avoided, just request transit (and don't be too long winded, especially if already under radar control). Of course they will want to see a mode C transponder for this. Also there is no such thing as RIS in the continent, you request FIS instead, which is effectively what the UK likes to call RAS. Which leads me to another important point: don't bimble around at 2000ft, especially in France, that's the military's playground. Around FL65 tends to be where most light pistons perform most efficiently so that's where you want to be, plus it's cooler up there.

One last thing to look at, a few airfields have restrictions in the summer concerning VFR flights and/or overnight parking, particularly along the Med coast, so check your NOTAMs carefully, consult with the ARO guys before departure, and phone ahead (numbers in the AIP, or from the local ARO) if in any doubt.

Best of luck with your flight.

Lukesdad
3rd Jul 2008, 08:05
LH2 Many thanks, very comprehensive.

Alpha, I'll check with Gib this week and post the information.

I had a desire to arrive on a runway that has to stop the cars crossing before you land!

tonyaddison
3rd Jul 2008, 10:42
when i was flying in spain last year most airports want paying in cash for fuel so make sure you have plenty of euro

igarratt
3rd Jul 2008, 11:35
Spent a month flying in the Gibraltar / south west spanish airspace, Most of Spain is pretty free of restriction.
South Spain isn't quite as nice, getting to Gib is a pain as there is a restricted zone right the way across the coast about 40 miles wide and up to FL300.

To the south west there is a USAF base ROTA that controls the coast and the waters up to flight level 280 for the most part. This kills off most of the coast for about 70 miles, spains restricted/danger areas arnt like the ones in the uk, they are no go.
This is the same with any non civil bases, at best you may be able to transit the airspace but it's unusual.

North of Gibraltar you have another military base called Moron, other than the ATZ being restricted ur ok as they restrict from FL150.

Above Moran to the north west you have Sevilla, they are busy but are incredibly helpful and accommodating to GA. This is a big big plus point in Spain, there is never any 'dam ga planes' if your new to an airport they will talk you in, tell you where to go to pay ur landing fee, even offer a follow me if you want :ok:

The trick to getting through the maze is the cut via La Juliana, it's a restricted zone but it's only up to 1000 feet, you can then cut direct, or go around / over.

I would recommend Jerez if you need a stop, there is a club 'Real Aeroclub Jerz' on the GA apron, access airside, you may be able to pre-arrange to go direct to them, if not then ops will want to bring you back to the terminal and there is naf all there, esp lacking in pre-flight. You must have a flight plan for all legs, if not ATC will not let you taxi.
Must be in 30 mins before flight and if your not ready to roll within 30 mins it gets cancelled automatically.


Lastly all spanish airports have entry exit points more often called echo whisky sierra and November (inline with NSEW) you must know these if your coming in VFR. Enty is 1000amsl and 2000 outbound amsl (but this changes per airport).
Lots of airports also have left and right circuits active at the same time.

Tho in general flying in Spain is so much more relaxed and easy going than UK, the scenery is amazing, flying down Gibraltar and the Morocco coast is out of this world !:)

Ian

dublinpilot
3rd Jul 2008, 12:29
don't bimble around at 2000ft, especially in France, that's the military's playground. Around FL65 tends to be where most light pistons perform most efficiently so that's where you want to be, plus it's cooler up there.


I agree with that! It's certainly cooler up there, and unlike the UK, there is little need to worry about airspace (transits easily given) nor weather (generally little low cloud).

Only thing I would add, is that the Spanish ICAO VFR charts are very difficult to read. I'm not a fan of the Jeppesen VFR charts, but I'd much prefer them to the Spanish ICAO ones.

dp

LH2
3rd Jul 2008, 13:26
most airports want paying in cash

:confused: I've never ever paid cash for fuel in Spain. Matter of fact, the fuellers much prefer cards, as they are liable to their employer if they lose the cash.

getting to Gib is a pain as there is a restricted zone right the way across the coast about 40 miles wide and up to FL300.

It used to be up to UNLD, must have changed it since they started allowing commercial traffic from Spain. Maybe if you're lucky you can now catch a thermal and climb over it :E It's there for political reasons, purely to annoy the Gibs.

spains restricted/danger areas arnt like the ones in the uk, they are no go

Not correct. Same as elsewhere, check AIP, NOTAMs, and ATC for their status. The only difference respect the UK is they don't have that silly DACS or whatever it's called. You just ask on whichever frequency you're on.

I would recommend Jerez if you need a stop

Agreed. Also Cordoba or Granada, if you want somewhere quieter. In Cordoba, stroll off the airport, up the road to the left for 200m and walk into the Real Aeroclub installations. More like a country club than an aeroclub.

if not then ops will want to bring you back to the terminal and there is naf all there, esp lacking in pre-flight

Sure you've been to the correct place? The ARO is up the stairs, discrete door to the left as you face the cafeteria . They have the usual weather and flight planning computers, plus the people there are very helpful.


Speaking of which, here is a trick: arrive at the cafeteria of any AENA airport with your reflective vest on and your headset on hand (extra points for company ID cards hanging from your neck). They will assume you are an airport worker / aircrew and you'll get 20% off on everything you buy.

Enty is 1000amsl and 2000 outbound amsl (but this changes per airport).

Not correct. It's whatever the VAC says it is, or what ATC tell you to fly at. Read the VAC carefully as it also has the radio failure instructions, which could save your licence one day.

I had a desire to arrive on a runway that has to stop the cars crossing before you land!

:ok:

Lukesdad
3rd Jul 2008, 22:35
Thanks all. Much appreciated.

Sam Rutherford
14th Jul 2018, 20:24
Anyone flown GA into Gibraltar recently?

jp54
15th Jul 2018, 10:54
I flew into there in January in a PA28.

Tubeflyer
15th Jul 2018, 19:54
I’ve just returned from flying in Jerez, I didn’t fly to Gibraltar personally due to the costs involved but it’s certainly do-able as people landed there while I was there.

Sam Rutherford
16th Jul 2018, 08:04
Hi jp54, care to share your experiences? Looking to get to Estepona, seems the closest?

Flying in from Portugal, and out to France (in case the Spain-Gib block is still in place?)

jp54
16th Jul 2018, 10:33
It was fairly straight forward. I originated from and then returned to Spain so had to clear customs before leaving Spain and then on arrival back in Spain afterwards.

Handling was done through Gibair and cost around £120. This covered the landing fee and parking, although I am not sure how you long can park for before they would start charging extra. I gave them a call the day before to give them a rough time of arrival and they were there waiting for me when I landed.

Sam Rutherford
16th Jul 2018, 17:09
Thanks!

I think my issue will be the need to use customs airports before and after Gib. In a weird way, making the airport charges (total) for the undertaking about 3x your £120. Makes it quite expensive.

In the meantime, this is a great site for finding airstrips in Spain: Aterriza.org.Información de todos los aeródromos de España. (http://www.aterriza.org/)

Safe flights! Sam.