HEMS Activation times

[TunaSandwich]

In my part of the world (Multi Engine EMS) we are expected to be airborne (not engine start) within six minutes of receiving the first call of activation for primary emergency flights. In my opinion this is dangerously short, is this normal for other countries?

[victor papa]

We are 5 minutes(single engine ops with b3/b4). We have looked at various ways off optimising the time to include a proper walk around, chk oil levels etc. We convinced our clients to change the wording to "strive to be airborne within 5 min but the contract requires within 10 min". Maybe it was made easier as we could use the argument that alll our operating basis are on airports subject to ATC clearance. We now basically operate practically to pre start checks within 5 min.

[bandit19]

My pet peeve. :mad: When I worked EMS some nurses would throw a s#@! fit if we were not off the ground in 6 minutes. I think it is just management induced self imposed stress. Never get in a rush or you might fly away with a battery cart for a sling load :bored:

Fly safe

[[email protected]]

VP - if you have already done a walkround and checked the oil levels then, when you get a shout, why should you want to waste time doing it again? EMS or SAR aircraft should be prepped and ready to go so that you can strap in and start up.

[alouette3]

Therein lies the rub. EMS aircraft are NOT on a life saving mission. They are transporting passengers ,just like any other charter operation. If we ,a s pilots, get that into our system we would save ourselves and others a lot of grief.
Alt3.

[spencer17]

@alouette3: That is definitely wrong.:= In rural areas the HEMS is on live saving missions. Not every time but sometimes.

Call to airborne in 4 minutes. First thing in the morning you do your preflight checks and a short ground-run with system checks and everything is safe and according to the book, also in a rush.

[victor papa]

Crab, we do 2-3 flights a day and over weekends 1 can be a mountain and/ sea rescue in between transfers/mva's/etc. During the aircraft on ground time at base we have rescue and/or ambulance staff repacking and replenishing their jumpbags/rescue equipment/running out the hoist/checking the cargo slings/engineers rechecking all good/aircarft being washed after sea exposure or it's 2 daily wash. We have an aircraft landing, starting refuelling and replenishing and within 5 min after shutting down a different call comes. We need to do between flight, clean/sterilise and prepare aircraft for next mission. It may only be a Squirrel, but I would rather know eveybody checked everything before I select "Idle" than wondering later. Thus we decided to convince the clients to give us the extra time dependant on situation. Bare in mind our next flight can be anything from a mountain/ sea rescue to a 1.5hr/per leg trauma transfer. The platform can do it easily with propper planning and checking-isn't a couple of minutes worth it?

[alouette3]

Spencer17:
I am at a rural location. When we get a hospital transfer request, it is because a rural hospital is in way over its head with a patient and they need the patient to be flown to a larger hospital in a metro.
The fact of the matter is the call for a helicopter goes out a few hours after the patient shows up at their doorstep.After that if I launch in 5 minutes or 15 is not going to make a life or death scenario. After all what happens if I can't go due to weather?They will stick him in an ambulance and send him on a 2 hour trip anyway. I do agree that I can reduce the time I take. Preflight, log book check,weather,WAT checks etc can be done and canned. But there are certain things theat HAVE to be done prior to lift:external power disconnected, baggage stowed,tie downs removed and then there is the check list to be done completely, thoroughly and wthout distraction.Being single pilot, I have a flow memorised for start and use my check list as a "Do and Verify" list rather than a "To Do" list.All told, it takes me about 8 minutes to pull pitch. If you are in a twin it might take longer but it has to be done right everytime all the time to avoid trying to launch off a rooftop with one engine in idle.
My point is , our actions should not be dictated by patient considerations but by the fact that we fly helicopters for a living and not, to save lives.
If there is a scene call the only thing I cut out of my launch procedure is GPS programming. I launch on a bearing and distance. Settle down at cruise, get the lat. longs. and program as I go. That is the only concession I make for the perceived "urgency" of a scene call.
Alt3.

[[email protected]]

VP, we do the same, day and night, VMC or IMC - our required response is 15 mins 0800 - 2200 and 45 mins 2200 to 0800. If the engineers have serviced the aircraft after one job I'm not about to waste time checking oil levels before launching on the next one.

However if it is neccessary to exceed response time in order to do the job safely then we will take any flak that comes and make that decision.

But it is also possible for us to get airborne in under 5 mins from the call if we have to.

[Shawn Coyle]

My limited civil and military experience was that we were never 'late' getting to a scene - there was always a long period sitting on the ground while things got organized, etc.
The only exception was when we got called out to remote areas where the ambulances couldn't get to quickly, or where there wasn't already someone taking care of immediate first aid. But these were not the majority of the calls.
Even then, I doubt that there's more than a couple of percent of patients for whom the time of arrival of the helicopter is critical for survival.
(Does anyone have any stats on this?)

What difference would a couple of minutes later make to the whole thing?
Don't rush the checks, don't rush anything - go as fast as you can when airborne, but if you're a minute or three late getting off the ground and safe, it's better than on time departure, but not prepared.
Do you see the airlines hurrying their checks when they're late? And they have a lot more money tied up in being on time than the EMS business.

[Bertie Thruster]

From Crabs present base, (Chivenor UK) but in the mid '80's, we did an 8 minute, (telephone call to landing back at base with the casualty) wet rescue; an exhausted swimmer out of the River Taw.

It was in a Wessex however, not a Seaking!

These days (UK HEMS) we lift in about 2-3 minutes from the call, but no one is counting.

[WhirlwindIII]

Alt3

I completely agree with your approach. Life saving mission or not, I am not about to become a victim by letting anyone urge me in to rushing and making mistakes. Once the pushing starts, though not often at all, I start pushing back, AND, slowing down.

Some mistakes are not forgiving, and forever; and can take others right along.

WIII

[TheVelvetGlove]

Oil, fluid and O2 levels are checked in advance of our flight requests, however, I will never board the aircraft without doing a 360 walk around.

I have no idea whether somebody has tampered with the aircraft, or run into it with a vehicle, or a perhaps a mechanic forgot to lock a cam fastener, or a medical crewmember plugged an extension cord in or left the baggage door unlocked, or sombody walked under the tailboom and broke an antenna.

Of course you have to do a walk around. And "strive" should be the most that any of us offers a customer.

[Gomer Pylot]

I always do a walkaround, no matter what. It doesn't take long, less than a minute, but I always walk competely around the aircraft. If the patient dies because I take an extra 30 seconds to make sure nothing has gone wrong with the aircraft, then the patient was going to die anyway. I don't waste time, but I never hurry. Hurrying will get you hurt. I take off when I'm ready, not before.

[stillnoeyedear]

I refuse to rush and always walkaround, especially after I screwed up once after rushing. We are given 20 mins VFR and 30 mins IFR (SP IFR in a 412), SAR jobs often need 45 mins. In eight years I've never seen a job that response time made a significant differance. Any med crew should be told to butt out with respect to response times.

[TwinHueyMan]

After a pilot of ours did a face plant trying to leap the barriers around our pad in a single stride, and a bird took off with an engine plug still installed (landed after the gauges hit the red, then tried again and ended up nearly balling it up), we adopted the philosophy of "slow is smooth, and smooth is fast", something I had heard before.. We had twins and were operating in Iraq, launching routinely in 6-7 minutes. Worked out well.

Oh and we left the tiedowns off then as well. Walkaround always, which included a peek into the intakes. Never had a problem.

Mike

[maeroda]

Hello,

About Hems in Italy we perform as follows:
a) 3 minutes take off (from call to t/o although time is flexible) for primary flights in daytime sunrise-30min to sunset+30min, weather conditions permitting.
b) Time required for planing mission for secondary flights (e.g.: hospital to hospital transfers) in daytime or nightime; usually you don't go over 30 minutes.

Prerequisites are:
1) the heading contractor of HEMS system is the government.
2) all we are flying twin engines operated by private air transport operators.
3) crews are alwais close to the helicopter in duty time and it is supposed they perform checks when starting their service.
4) night service is unaided with two pilots. Day time may be single or two pilots.
5) the medical system requires 3 min because of the "stay and play" approach to the emergency. We have 1 reanimation anaesthesist and 1 reanimation nurse on board, paid by the contractor.
6) due to lack of remote areas and plenty of moutain areas (Alps & Appennine) of some high, usually HEMS merges and overlaps with SAR; so we have medic/nurse crew members using hoist in certain rough countys.

Maeroda

[Tigwas]

I wonder what sort of mad dash the two medi helicopters were in when they collided in Arizona recently?

[[email protected]]

I guess some of you guys just don't trust your engineers then - I know I can strap in and start without doing a walkround on a scramble. A cursory 360 wander round the aircraft is a waste of time, you either do a complete pre-flight or don't bother at all - it is like chanting a mantra "I've walked around the aircraft so everything must be OK".

[ShyTorque]

Can't agree, Crab. Never take the quick way to the cockpit door. A panel left unlatched can kill, and has done.

Secondly, being still in the mob, you have always led a sheltered life with "engineers" to do your aircraft level checks and replens etc and someone else to sign as having checked. Not everyone has those luxuries. I'm not in a life saving role these days but often the need to get airborne can still be pressing. I have no-one to do stuff for me these days so no-one but me should open any panels once the aircraft is out on the tarmac. But it has been known for some helpful soul to open and not shut. Also, I might get interrupted in mid-check and forget something, so a final pre launch look-around gets done every time as far as I'm concerned.

[alouette3]

Crab:
We do trust our engineers/mechanics.But we verify that they have done their job.They expect us to.
The walk around is not about checking the aircraft again. It is about checking if latches are closed,baggage has been stowed,and everything is clear. In between flights, it is about checking if any new problems have cropped up: you may have sprung a leak or your T/R might have done some weed whacking coming into a scene etc.
I suppose you think that the airline pilot who walks around his 737/747/757/767, sometimes in freezing weather, is also wasting his time------?
Alt3

[victor papa]

My personal motto is: "Assumption is the mother of all fu:mad:ups!!!!!"

I trust all my fellow workers whether it is a engineer/ pilot/ paramedic/ sister/ doctor/crewman etc. I however know how many times I thought I did something/forgot to do something/ plainly made a mistake. Busy with preflight and the paramedic asks about a flight/ somebody wants to schedule a meeting/ somebody comes to say hallo. Nobody will convince me they never had a destraction while doing preflight/ a engineer doing maintenance/ medical crew replenishing etc. I am sorry, but the only thing I have is extra eyes=prevention. I do not mind, and in effect by us it is part of procedure, for the med crews to walk around the aircraft again after start waiting for the stabilisation period just for incase. I have engineers insisting on a check after 1 did balancing adjustments and another duplicate inspection. WHY? Because we can and all of us sometimes see what we want to see!!!!! Why not take the lifesaving extra min/2 at the most:ugh::ugh:

[Helinut]

The same sort of pressures can get applied in police work too. SoPs vary quite a bit.

Many times I have been told how "good" a pilot is for lifting from the spot (without looking behind him before he goes). Maintain your own standards.

[[email protected]]

I didn't say I don't do a walkround - I just don't do one on a scramble because the aircraft is already prepared. As the pilot, my job is to get the aircraft started quickly, the other members of the crew will join me during the start and may well cast a glance over the aircraft and there are 2 engineers as the start crew, also looking for any leaks or problems that might affect the aircraft.

If this is being pampered then long may it continue but our engineers are civilian now, the colour of their overalls doesn't affect their professional competence - they are very firmly part of the team with a crucial role in flight safety.

BtW how may pilots do a post flight walkround - which is much more important? Alouette - I can't believe you would leave it until the next flight to check if your TR had sustained damage on the previous one.

[HAL9000]

Can the requirement to be airborne within a certain time period, whatever the reason, be legally enforcible on the Captain? Surely the over-riding factor is safety and if the Captain needs to take longer because, in his opinion, that is what is required then so be it.

[victor papa]

Crab, we enforce the "between flight" You land and shut down =you check! This does not take time(1-2 min) or a brain surgeon, but it does bridge the question of "when is the last flight of the day?" It does ensure a crew being able to hand over a aircraft with knowledge and not assumptions.(they had to land to hand over) Again. the new crew will double check aaand it is not to question the previous crew. Different eyes sees differnt things!

[ShyTorque]

Crab, yes you are pampered, no-one mentioned the colour of overalls, only the fact that you have someone in overalls to help you. ;)

Horses for courses. Some of us have no-one else to do the daily check A, the walk round checks and post flight checks after every sector. Same with some refuels and oil top-ups, and towing the aircraft in and out of the hangar. My aircraft often doesn't see a qualified engineer for 50 flying hours unless something goes wrong with it.

It's similar for many UK HEMS and Police ASUs.

I'm no longer doing either, but operating as single crew these days, I have no-one down the back to help spot errors. I can make a mistake as much as anyone else can who touches a door or filler cap, be it passenger, engineer, refueller or pax handling staff, so my mantra must be a personal cross-check of the exterior whenever I can. :)

[alouette3]

Crab:
I am sorry ,I should have worded it better. By next flight, I meant the next time I launch. At my location, a flight is typically a three leg affair and I check for leaks and damage, between legs(that sounds awful but you know what I mean!!!).
Also, I do a complete walk around after the final flight/leg too. During that time, I do an AD check(my helicopter has two daily airworthiness directives to be complied with), and make sure the cockpit is set up and organized for the next launch/incoming pilot.
And ,no, we in the US EMS business do not have ground crew saluting and seeing us off. In that respect,yes, you are pampered.
Aalt3.

[OBX Lifeguard]

Our emphasis is on being 'focused' not fast. I've found that fast results in hurried results in mistakes. 'Focused' actually tends to result in quicker launch times.

That being said it is the borderline weather that deserves and gets the extra minutes of study. I routinely check the weather about every three hours but when paged for a flight I always recheck it. Easy when it's severe clear or zero/zero, but another thing all together when it's right on the edge.

A final note. If one of our medical crew ever pitched a "s#@! fit" over time to launch at one of my pilots they would be temporarily off flight assignment in a New York second subject to review where they would be permanently removed...

[TheVelvetGlove]

Every one of us has a different environment that we operate out of.

I suppose that if I was sitting on top of a secure roof-top pad, instead of on the GA ramp at an airport with no security or locked gates, then I might feel differently. I will take a good look at everything before I go.

And yes, I do a post-flight inspection every time that I get out of the helicopter.

[Gomer Pylot]

For me, the powers that be, whether management or med crew, can demand whatever liftoff time they like. I'll lift off when I lift off. If they don't like it, then something will change, whether it's my place of employment or theirs. I don't take any crap from med crews about flying, just as I don't give them any about medical stuff. As I said above, I don't waste any time, but I don't hurry. Hurrying will inevitably lead to increased times, and often an aborted flight. Having a routine and sticking with it no matter what helps to keep launch times down and prevent mistakes. I'm another without a ground crew to assist. We get a mechanic (engineer) when an inspection is due or the ship is grounded. There's me, the nurse, and the medic. One takes care of the medical equipment, one operates the battery cart, and we launch ourselves. If there is any check of the aircraft, I do it, both before and after the flight, including fueling, replenishing oil, and servicing the oxygen. I also do most of the preventive maintenance - changing light bulbs, etc. I would love to have multiple ground support personnel, but that won't happen. You live with what you have, or you leave. I can live with things the way they are, as long as I'm careful and do a walkaround before and after every flight.

[Shawn Coyle]

Does anyone have a set of guidelines (I hesitate to call them rules) about what to do and not to do? Guidelines such as:
No running. Even if you're late - don't run. If you fall you'll be even later.
and so on.

[hoistop]

Hello,
As I had a chance to observe several police and HEMS/SAR operations (and am working for one) I am humbly putting forward my observations:
in Austria, OAMTC crews, flying EC 135s with Pilot and HEMS crewmember and doctor on board. (Swiss REGA works similar way)They regularly take off within three minutes ( not a required standard!) when weather is not an issue and flight is within designated operating area, which is fairly small for each base (about 50km circle). They have carefully prepared procedures -and also hardware, like crew quarters are only a few steps away from helicopter, movable helipad(on rails) allows single person to push helicopter out of hangar in half a minute, etc.
Helicopter, weather, medical stuff etc. is checked and prepared in advance and regularly updated-rechecked, no one except crew has acess to helicopter on duty, etc. Even kitchen could be modified - imagine coming back from a mission, finding burning home base, as someone left pan full of cooking oil on cooking plate!
As soon as request for takeoff and location is received, pilot goes out, doing start up. HEMS crewmember, responsible for tactical navigation, comes later with the details of destination, situation, etc.
I had a chance to fly with several UK police helicopters - mostly liftoff occoured in about 3 minutes after phone rang. Shortest scramble I witnessed was 1min 45 seconds from bell ringing to liftoff - and I swear, I never witnessed any rush - everything going on smoothly, as it was done thousand times before on a predetermined procedure, that was developed and finessed out thru experience.
Even big Bristows S61N SAR I had a privilege to fly aboard, was airborne within 5 minutes if needed. Everything prepared, special checklists in use, a lot of proffesionalism, and there never was any rush - everything went smoothly, but with no delay. Mind that crew has to put on immersion suits too!
Flew with RAF SAR Sea King too, but response time was a bit longer - also due to the fact that crew quarters were far away from helicopter, so a van was used to get there.
Where I fly, we regularly take off with Bell 412 in 5 - 6 minutes after the call, if weather and mission planning is not an issue. If there are doubts, it can be 10 or 20 minutes - until pilot, or better say, crew is happy with the decision to go. Still, preflight checks are done and myself as crewchief am doing final walkaroud when engines are already running - we caught two hydraulic leaks in the last two years this way. It is an added bonus, that crewchief is most of the times also licensed engineer, so snags can be often sorted out quickly.
In my humble opinion, short take off times (3-5 min) can be achieved safely under certain conditions, but the whole organisation must be adapted to such operations - including outfit of hangar, communications, crew quarters, personal equipment (boots with zippers, for instance,) etc.
If you approach this issue with "airline" or "Point A to point B transport of medics and patients" thinking, you will either achieve unacceptable scramble times, or you will skip safety. Truly, few seconds will hardly mean anything to a patient condition, but in rescue/HEMS business (also police ) there could be a big difference between 5 and 15 minutes takeoff time on final outcome, not to mention the decision to take off at all. Agree that there is no point in trying to catch some predetermined takeoff times, not only from the safety point, but also from the patient point - there is no sense in trying to reach that patient, only to tell the medics, waiting with him, that you cannot reach them - time lost that could be used to move patient with ground transport. It is even worse, to load the patient and then try to figure out where to deliver him, as planned destination hospital is out of reach due to storm that just developed.

Stay safe! :)

[skadi]

hoistop :ok::ok::ok:

skadi

[Gomer Pylot]

It takes longer than 2 minutes just to start the engine(s) and do the checklist, if you do it right. I defy anyone to start a non-FADEC turbine engine in under a minute, after getting into the cockpit and strapping in, doing even a cursory check of the cockpit before and after the start, and stabilizing the engine. With a Rolls-Royce engine, you have to stabilize it at idle for a full minute before even advancing the throttle, and it takes time to get to 100% rpm unless you risk overtemping and overtorquing. Even if it takes me longer than 5 minutes to lift off, we often get to the scene before the ground personnel are ready for us, and I've reached many scenes before EMS even arrived, so we had to circle. All this emphasis on short lift times is something I just don't understand. It doesn't help the patient or the crew, especially if the flight is aborted because of problems caused by hurrying. I don't waste any time, but I never, ever hurry.

[alouette3]

Gomer Pylot:
You read my mind.:ok:All this talk about three- minute- launches in twin/complex helicopters is a wee bit supicious.I currently fly a single but even that takes at least about two minutes to spool up and be ready to go.
Unless you are a military SAR/CG guy, there is no such thing as a "scramble".
Shawn, to answer your question, my company frowns upon running to the machine.Sometimes my med crew tend to do that and I use that as an opportunity to slow everybody down.
Alt3.

[TheVelvetGlove]

Nobody should run to the aircraft unless they are being shot at. My company does not allow running.:=

[skadi]

GOM wrote
and I've reached many scenes before EMS even arrived, so we had to circle.

Why that, thats the advantage of HEMS, to be faster than the "groundtroops".
Thats the philosophie of HEMS in Germany and other european countries. Many times we are the first ones on scene and could treat the patients before the EMS arrives. These minutes are in many cases essential for the health of the patients.
By the way, an emergency doctor is always member of the crew ( at least in germany, austria, netherland and suisse )

skadi

[TOMMY1954]

And in Portugal the emergency doctor and nurse are also members of the crew.

[Gomer Pylot]

I've never seen anyone run to the aircraft. I've never even seen anyone consider running to the aircraft. At the speed most of us can run, you're only going to save a few seconds, so why bother? If the patient is going to die within 10 seconds, then the patient is going to die. Everybody dies. It's not worth killing more people in a futile attempt to save one.

We never land without having ground personnel secure an LZ, and we never start treating patients before the EMS personnel call for us. We have no legal standing for doing that, and it would be severely frowned upon. We're a private company, and only do transports when called by ground EMS or hospital personnel. Thus getting to the scene early is a waste of resources. I understand that it's different in much of Europe, and other countries of the world,but we're not in Europe or other countries of the world.

[TunaSandwich]

Hey Gomer Pylot, I'm surprised to hear you don't have any EMS Helicopters in the US! is that just in your State or the whole of the US? Where I'm based in Europe we have a first response unit on board and the first priority is to be on scene asap, often before ground units. Transfer to the hospital is of secondary importance (generally) as we are fully equipped to stabilize the patient (in most cases) unless surgery is urgently required. As there is no VFR night flying where I am it is not unknown to drop the medic team at the accident and return the Helicopter to Base empty before sunset, again, the emphasis is to put the team on the ground as first priority and they take ground transport to a Hospital. The reason for my initial question is that we have recently received comments from the client that we were not complying with the original contract of being airborne within six minutes for Primary calls, I think its the time of year for contract renewal and probably our competitors are offering to guarantee shorter launch times. I suppose it depends very much on the Heli type as regards to what is a safe launch time, in one regards I am lucky (pampered?) that we have a licensed (generally) engineer to see me safely off, but on the other hand to start up and lift a medium Bell within six minutes leaves no time for by the book system checks and god help me if I'm sitting on the can when they call..

Cheers

[Gomer Pylot]

Laws and philosophies are different in Europe and the US. There are very few EMS helicopter operations run by any government entities. Almost all are private companies, run for profit. Local governments operate ground EMS agencies, and not much more. Many ground ambulances are also privately owned and operated, some by hospitals, some by separate ambulance companies. Ambulances operated by private companies can't just go to a scene uninvited, whether they're ground or air ambulances. The EMS agency which controls the area has to call for them.

Whether this is right or wrong, I won't even try to say. It's just the way it evolved.

[sox6]

Cloud hangs over helicopter service - Local News - News - General - Central Western Daily (http://orange.yourguide.com.au/news/local/news/general/cloud-hangs-over-helicopter-service/801672.aspx)

But there are problems in other parts of the world adter acciddents

[Gomer Pylot]

There are more accidents in the US at least in part because there are more helicopters. There are hundreds, if not a thousand, EMS helicopters flying regularly in the US. With that much area, and that many helicopters, there will be accidents, even if the rate is equal to or less than that elsewhere. I have no data on the accident rates around the world, but jumping to conclusions based solely on numbers of accidents is flawed. The only way to prevent all accidents is to prevent all flying. Yes, we need to reduce the numbers, but through an informed debate, not through knee-jerk reaction.

[TOMMY1954]

80000 HEMS missions for patients in Germany (1999 - 2004)

24 helicopter crashes (22 during the day, 2 at night)

3 crashes - fatal
2 crashes - nonfatal injuries
7 persons killed
4 injured severely
4 injured slightly

54% of all crashes were reported during approach and landing
17% of the crashes ocurred during ground run
29% during the remaining flight phases.

I have no data regarding HEMS in my country, but in 11 years, regarding 2 helicopters in 24h operation, there has never been any crash.

[TunaSandwich]

What I would really like to know is if other countries have a contract requirement to be airborne in a certain time. If we are not airborne within six minutes we have to write a report to justify the reason, and every month the client (local government in this case) calculates a percentage of launch times and compares them to other bases. Just to clarify, we get 0 pressure from the medics, we are on the same team and they receive the same pressure from the client as do the flight crew

Stillnoeydear, is that 20 minutes for Primary flights? seems a very long time... or do you not have the team on site like some operations where I am?

[skadi]

Here in germany the guideline for HEMS primary missions are 2 min from call to T/O. But no consequences if circumstances ( p. e. weather ) resulting in longer times.

http://www.inm-online.de/pdf/forschung/2005_finkenzeller_verzoegerungen.pdf

(only summary in english )

skadi

[TunaSandwich]

Skadi, you're kidding right? you would have to be strapped in the seat for the whole shift with your finger on the start button to be airborne in two minutes?

[TOMMY1954]

Portuguese HEMS has 15' from call to T/O .

[skadi]

TS, im not kidding. In the mentioned report ( About a HEMS base in Munich with a BK 117 ), the average time was about 3 minutes. 95% below 5 minutes. Since most HEMS Bases in Germany now uses EC 135, the average time all over the country will be shorter then.

skadi

[hoistop]

I can only confirm what Skadi is saying, becouse I have seen it with my own eyes. (Ok, 3 min is maybe more realistic than 2, but now we are into details a bit too much, I suppose...)
Again, it works only with specific organisation, equipment, and under certain conditions. You cannot reach those times with helicopter, powered by one or even two Allisons 250 C20..... Modern helicopters have FADEC controlled engines, and quick start is allowed ( EC-135, A-109 Power) where you can flip BOTH engine switches to FLIGHT SIMULTANEOUSLY and FADEC will take care of starting sequence (and count appropriate penalty on engine cycles for abusive starting)
I believe that putting required take off time in HEMS contract or even offer it to gain contract over competitors is a dangerous way to go - but this is reality, if contractor (mostly governmental departments here in Europe) allows ruthless competition among HEMS providers. Unfortunatelly, those who are writing tender specifications, are often not enlightened enough aviationvise to understand, what they are doing with such requirements.

Stay safe!

[TunaSandwich]

Thanks for all the great reply's. I have to admit that I have to crank up two PT6's and have never experienced a FADEC start up so can understand the differences in time to takeoff. The problem where I am is that we are the only none FADEC ship in our area of control so probably a little unfair comparison, but at the end of the day that is a problem for my company bosses, not the pilots.
Cheers

[Shawn Coyle]

And what's to prevent you calling 'airborne' to dispatch at the 5 minute mark, even if you're not quite there?

[Gomer Pylot]

The same thing that prevents me from flying in weather below minimums, fudging on my logbook, and other miscellaneous dodgy stuff - my personal pride and integrity.

[EC135CAPTAIN]

Hello

I see many times we are activated 30 to 45 minutes after accident happens, taking off in 3 minutes is possible but useless, we have a 10 minute regulation and you have time to do every check.
They way to save time is on the 112 coordination center side who usually have no idea about helicopter operations.

[WhirlwindIII]

Ya know, this whole bit about launch times is a bit dodgy! As soon as there is an accident attributed to rushing our company comes out and tells everyone Safety First, launch times later. Then a bit later comes a review of launch times and they teeter the other way, and on and on it goes.

The thing I REALLY don't like about all this rush rush launch launch like a fire engine bolting from the stable is when a competitor decides they're going to misrepresent their launch time history, and that of their competitors, to the point where they actually publish these pseudo claims in newspapers to serve their end of gaining first due status from townships. Or, by also going to town hell, ooops, hall, meetings to make their case, unopposed by those they accuse of slow times, etc., etc., etc. That is about as low as it goes in my book and one way we work against one another. The ramifications of such behavior can get really awkward, and can take awhile to sort out.

Just making a point about some things that go on behind the scenes in case a few never thought such things happen.

[tottigol]

Tuna, back when I was flying EMS in the 412 our lift-off times were better than with the following FADEC equipped 430.

That was for a standard VFR departure, with IFR clearances involved it became a washout.

[Scattercat]

An interesting discussion!

We fly SPIFR on SAR / EMS tasks. Our management discourages trying to meet real or percieved response targets, certainly at the expense of thorough pre-planning. In fact, at night we are not to get airborne in less than 20 min' following a wake-up call due to the effects of "sleep inertia".

This is one of the advantages of being a Government operated entity as we don't have the "provider / client" relationship that NGO's are faced with.

Cat

[BigMike]

When I flew in Czech we usually were airbourne within 4-5 minutes of recieving a call (first responese EMS though)
As said by others, helicopter a few steps from crew room, aircraft checked and configured for start, starting off GPU (no delay on second engine start - B427) etc.
No one running, just practiced and efficient.

Night was a different story, inter-hospitals only, so about 15 mins to be ready, check weather, phone towers on the route for real time weather, then confirming the flight can go ahead.

[The Juggler]

Scattercat,

I heard that the 20 minute rule by night has nothing to do with "sleep inertia" more so that's the extra time for you to get up, take the call, then put some clothes on so the rest of your crew don't have to see you butt naked:ok:

[Scattercat]

Hmmm .... & I thought what happens on shift, stays on shift!:confused:

[Gomer Pylot]

Whatever gave you that idea? What happens on shift gets spread far and wide. At least that's my experience.

[SASless]

What happens on shift gets spread far and wide.

Uh Oh....sounds like this thread is drifting around to a discussion on Flight Nurses!:E

[Thud_and_Blunder]

That's a relief - I thought for a mo' they were talking about the after-effects of this pilot's attempts at cooking.

[Gomer Pylot]

It matters not at all whether it's about nurses, cooking, or anything else, nor whether it happens in EMS or offshore. If it happens, everyone with a telephone knows all about it within about 3 minutes. Everyone else finds out as soon as they're seen face to face. There are no secrets, and that's no secret. :}

[BigMike]

So the average rumour response time would be around 3 minutes then... ;)

[Gomer Pylot]

Give or take a few seconds... :rolleyes:

[zalt]

For years, there has been a well-established system in Southeastern Arizona for dispatching helicopters, to make sure the nearest to the crash scene gets the call.

But now, because of the story you're about to see - the state has launched an investigation into one Southern Arizona fire chief -- who decided on his own to ignore that protocol.

When a helicopter lands at an accident, you might assume it was the closest. But it's not always.

LifeNet Dispatcher: "I'm just trying to find out why he's requesting two helicopters so far away when I now have a helicopter 4 minutes away from you guys."

In Southeastern Arizona, three companies offer air ambulance services: LifeNet, Air Evac, and Arizona Lifeline.

They've agreed on a process to make sure the closest helicopter responds to an accident.

Local emergency responders contact dispatch center Tucson MEDS, who then sends the closest helicopter company to the accident.

But in a December 5th crash near Whetstone, that protocol was not followed.

State launches investigation into Southern Arizona fire chief | Top Stories | FOX11AZ.com | News for Tucson, Arizona (http://www.fox11az.com/news/local/stories/arizona-20080102-investigate-fire-chief-helicopter.30e3db70.html)

[TunaSandwich]

From the "NTSB Hearing on Most Wanted: Improve the Safety of EMS Flights" thread


3. "Hard" Liftoff Times: Priority - Important.

Some pilots are reporting operator imposed requirements to be airborne within a set amount of time subsequent to receiving a flight request. This arbitrary setting of the amount of time available to properly plan a flight as well as complete the many checklist items required to safely start the aircraft and initiate flight, is unwise on a number of levels. Every flight is different, as is the time required to properly plan and initiate it.

Recommendation - Hard liftoff times are an unsafe practice that should be banned by the FAA.


:)

Any chance this way of thinking will make it over the pond?

[alouette3]

Tuna:
Over the pond? It will never see the light of day on this side of the pond!!.Reason?the guys who sign the checks get to make the rules. As of now, the guys in US HEMS signing the checks are fresh from running ground ambulance services, fire stations and the like.
Alt3.

[TunaSandwich]

Hi Alt3, don't the FAA make the rules? or would it be too difficult for them to impose such a rule on an operation?
TS

[Flaxton Flyer]

TS -

As UK HEMS is charity run (= not paid on results), not included in ORCON time statistics and will (theoretically) always be sent as a back-up to ground forces, response time isn't the be-all and end-all.

In my pond we go when we are all ready, and not before. At least then we don't arrive in the wrong place with half the kit missing and with my shirttails hanging out of my pants.

FF

[Gomer Pylot]

It would be difficult, if not impossible, to enforce such a rule. There are 'official' rules, and 'unofficial' rules, and they aren't necessarily the same. Companies may follow the official rules officially, but in reality follow different ones. I haven't personally seen any hard liftoff times, but there are 'target' times. I lift off when I'm ready to lift off, and the company can accept it or not. I've had lift times of less than a minute, and I've had lift times of 10 minutes. It depends on the situation. To get a minute lift time, you have to be listening to the scanner and anticipate the call. A call for a long-distance transfer in the middle of the night with marginal weather will take much, much longer than one in the daytime with completely clear weather when I've been listening to the local EMS service and know that a serious wreck has occurred and we're likely to be called.