re-enlistment for civvy pilot - any options?

[Alex HH]

Hello,

First post - so apologies if this has been asked before.

I left the RN in 1999 (Instructor Officer - not FAA), did CPL/IR in Australia, and have subsequently been flying Islanders then latterly King Airs.

I've just moved back to UK, and have been getting the urge to serve again. In these days of acute manpower shortages, might there be any options to rejoin on flying duties? I know the idea would have been laughed at a few years ago, but maybe things might be different now?

Now, I'm not expecting the FAA to retrain me on Harrier (though that would be nice) but given that AAC and RAF operate the types that I am civvy-qualified on, might there be some way forward there? Has anybody ever tried this?

[CirrusF]

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I have already tried, and it is still a no-goer, even with the manpower shortages that we currently have.

I'm ex-UAS, ex-Army (airborne, but not pilot) and now ATPL(A), with King Air type rating. I first rang the RAF(R) recruiting hotline - they told me "no" straight away. I also wrote to AAC, who did take their time to consider it, but eventually turned it down because there is no structure for them to take on short term engagement pilots outside the standard AAC career route. I know of another ex-Army civvy trained RW pilot, with a lot of civvy hours, who also asked, and was also told politely that it was not possible - though in his case they said that civvy RW was too different from military RW to be of much relevance.

It is a disappointment because like you I'm really motivated to serve again, and give something back to the Army. I was not expecting any sort of long term career - just to serve again for a few years (or however long they want while current shortages last) as a dedicated pilot. It is not like I would be motivated by getting FW flying quals and then buggering of to BA at the earliest opportunity (which, lets face it, is the motivation of some mil pilots) as I would be bringing the quals with me, already paid for by myself, and very motivated to do the job, rather than just biding time grabbing as many hours as possible before the earliest leaving date. Nor was I expecting any investment in training me to fly anything armed or tactical like RW - I'd be chuffed as hell to go on Defender or whatever they want.

Maybe somebody high up the brass ladder might suddenly have a brainwave, stick an add in FI for civvy CPL/IR/ME level pilots with some previous military background, get together half a dozen or so well motivated ready-qualified pilots, push them through a bit of gentle marching and saluting refresher training at Crandhurst or wherever, and stream them as onto Defender and King Air which (presumably) civvy trained pilots could be adapted to relatively easily. You could organise them into a little saga-squadron, held together just while the current shortages continue. That would then free up a few master-race pilots to fly the armed and more tactical airframes which obviously no useless civvy pilot could ever hope to cope with;-)

[Tourist]

"as I would be bringing the quals with me"

You would bring no quals that are militarily recognised whatsoever.

Not being funny, but it aint hard to fly an islander or King air in a civvy environment.

The problem with civvy flying training is that if he had enough money, a monkey would pass it.

You may be fantastic, but the only way to find out would be to put you through military flying training.

[ChristopherRobin]

Alex I think that having been through a military flying course and having a military record might actually help them make a positive decision rather than an unknown quantity (genuinely no offence to Cirrusfrance) who has not gone thru their system.

Give them a call, but I suggest presenting your case in person.

[CirrusF]

You would bring no quals that are militarily recognised whatsoever.

Not being funny, but it aint hard to fly an islander or King air in a civvy environment.

The problem with civvy flying training is that if he had enough money, a monkey would pass it.




Of course, I bow down to your enormous ego, superior flying skills, rasor-sharp reaction times, all paid for by the ever generous tax payer. Funnily enough, when I did my CPL/IR/ME, paid for out of my own pocket, which focuses the mind like nothing else, the only person who failed his IR/ME (twice actually) was an ex military single seater who had an attitude and ego just like yours. How we laughed!

It is even more difficult to understand how this guy could have failed, as having learnt to fly myself with RAF instructors at CUAS, their instruction was simply the best ever, and I never yet come across civilian instructors with such patience and tolerance.

But as I admit in my original post no useless civvy rich-monkey pilot would ever be able to fly a military aeroplane - ever. So I won't argue with you any more.

[Alex HH]

Thank you for the head's up. I think there may have been some misreading of my initial post, as I have no military flying training at all (except a bit of gliding at RNAS Culdrose - if that counts!!). All my training was doing Australian PPL, then CPL, then IR etc so it seems like this is a total non-starter.

[Tourist]

cirrus.

Leaving aside your frankly enormous chip for a second, when exactly did I impugne your flying skills?

You may be the new Winkle Brown, but the point is that unless you went through the Military training system how would we know, and how could we judge your areas of knowledge and be sure that no areas were missed?
There is a reason that we do not get any civvy quals, and it's because they are not applicable to what we do.

Also, what makes a good military pilot may not tally with what you might imagine, or what might make a good civvy pilot. There are vast gulfs between what is desirable in a military pilot and in a civvy. In part, that may account for the occasional problems that occur, such as in the case of the ex mil pilot you mention having difficulties with his IR.

"get together half a dozen or so well motivated ready-qualified pilots, push them through a bit of gentle marching and saluting refresher training at Crandhurst or wherever, and stream them as onto Defender and King Air which (presumably) civvy trained pilots could be adapted to relatively easily."

The entire paragraph above but particularly the bits I have highlighted show the vast gulf between your impression of what a military pilot does and what he actually does.
I assure you, that everybody mil on this forum will read that paragraph and wince.

Flying is easy as we all know.
Operating a military aircraft can be a very different thing.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

A suggestion for cirrus would be that if he is genuine about

"It is a disappointment because like you I'm really motivated to serve again, and give something back to the Army"

Then maybe some consideration to coming back using his previous military skills would go some way towards easing said disappointment :ok:

[Ali Barber]

Let me start by saying I know nothing about the King Air and Islander tasks, but how difficult can they be, especially for a civil trained pilot qualified on type who has previous military experience. He would have the ethos and understanding of the "customer" point of view from his previous time in. At the very least, it might release a current King Air/Islander pilot for a cross-over to something more aggressive.

A reminder of my opening statement, but feel free to shoot the argument down in flames!

[EGGP]

"At the very least, it might release a current King Air/Islander pilot for a cross-over to something more aggressive."

I think that in these days of overstretch some M/E aircrew may see a tour on the aforementioned types a chance to spend some time with family and regular hours; and a rest from deployments to somewhere sandy for long periods. Would this help retention rates?, I suspect not. :=

[G-SPOTs Lost]

It might amaze you to know that the original B200 guys were actually trained by Flightsafety International which is indeed a civvie TRTO.....

[st nicholas]

Tourist

I had the pleasure of the army pilots course in the early 1990s and then the pleasure of a civilian Type rating course onto a medium sized twin jet and I can assure you that both had their moments.

If anything the civil route is more intense in its examination of both theory and practical skills. The operation of the civil types is probably easier day to day . The annual checks in the simulator are more thorough and of a longer duration than the military equivalent.

Plus the younger people I work with are far more intelligent than both myself and most of my ex military pals and far less arrogant.

[reynoldsno1]

If it's any help I was military trained, became a civvy and then offered my services back a few, well, quite a few years back, and was politely declined ... I think I am now grateful for small mercies :)

[Tourist]

richatom.
Never sneered, just explained why.
I'm guessing that an instructor officer is what we used to call a schoolie. In which case sod all.

Gspot.
There is a difference between availing yourselves of some sim time in Flightsafety's sims after military flying training, and being "trained by"

Santa.
"If anything the civil route is more intense in its examination of both theory and practical skills. The operation of the civil types is probably easier day to day . The annual checks in the simulator are more thorough and of a longer duration than the military equivalent."
Having also done both, I disagree, though having done some time at Wallop, I may grant your point compared to the Amateur Air Corp:E

[The Hook Hacker]

Alex

please check your private messages

thanks,

The HH (no relation!)

[Tyres O'Flaherty]

I do think the title of this thread gives the lie to all the usual bitching... towit....



RE -enlistment.


This is not a ''plaintive cry to be able to serve''.

This is ex servicemen looking to RE Offer their SERVICES, based upon skills gained, & possibly built upon.

& has been misinterpreted

[Two's in]

push them through a bit of gentle marching and saluting refresher training

I assure you, that everybody mil on this forum will read that paragraph and wince.

...wince indeed, the very thought of Pilots saluting and marching turns one's blood cold.

[fade to grey]

Tourist,
i can understand what you are saying but going from civvy king air to military king air surely would not be that far fetched ?
he's not asking to fly a bloody typhoon is he ?

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Tourist

The aircraft can only do what it can do and despite being a good airframe the aircraft does not know that its being flown by a mil pilot or civilian pilot, there are a great deal of Kingair Pilots out here who have got a great deal of time operating these things into some very short unfavourable surface airfields- single crew.

I fly along at 480 knots most days, you wont find me applying to fly a typhoon anytime soon. Kingairs and Islanders are a little bit different. You are running the risk at the moment of sounding like an elitist ass - sorry.

The fact remains your Beech 200 guys were taught to fly that type by civilian instructors in a civilian sim on a civilian syllabus checked by civilian examiners on a course that I can write a cheque for and sit for £7K.

However much you try to distance yourself from it, those are I'm afraid the facts.

It makes me quite glad that this is the case as it no doubt saved a shedload of money from the Money Pit that is BAE or Marshalls and it might and I repeat just might end up in the form of body armour on some squaddies back.

[Re-Heat]

Some posters here are extremely dismissive.

There have been civvy-trained people who work in the military system in a variety of places. Linton instructors come to mind - a trained, keen and motivated poster such a the OP might well be of use in such a situation (as opposed to joining the mil structure outright). Other places I can think of include the chaps who fly the bizjets as simulated targets (their name escapes me).

While front line roles might require people who have been through the whole system in the first place to permit a rejoin, many of the responses seem to be from sniffy prats who tend to occupy PPRuNe and the darker corners of mess bars.

Perhaps engaging brain and thinking about where he/she can help instead of being outright hostile may be a great use to our overstretched services.

[Tourist]

Can I just ask some questions please.

1. How many of you here are ex military pilots?
2. If you are not, why exactly do you think you have the knowledge to say what the military needs from a pilot?
3. Why are you all so chippy about this? It is not that I'm saying that civvys are ****, it's just that it is a different ball game. Not necessarily a better one, just a different one. Everbody who comes forward with a "ex-military bloke on my course was rubbish" story only reinforces what I am saying. He was good at what he did, and not in the civvy world. That's because they are different worlds.

Bringing up the type conversion by some civvys for King air pilots totally misses the point. They go to the states for 3 weeks, one week of which is tech ground school plus maybe ten sim trips, during which they had to ignore lots of crazy US civvy versions of stall training etc, then once they got back learn to fly it in a military manner.
Do you think that the important facet of their training was that three weeks in the US, or the 3 years of military flying training they did first? Duh? Do you think the current King Air display pilot got taught that stuff by Flight Safety International?

The mention of the FRA Falcons who fly the simulated targets etc is way off the mark. They are very picky about who they hire even from within the ex-mil environment. Currently all ex fast jet except one ex jungly I believe though don't quote me on that.

Yes there are lots of civvys around in military training environments. Gosh, and hasn't that gone well. Jefts used to have a civvy instructor who was ex UAS, failed to get into the RAF so became an instructor, and got hired to teach the future Aircrew of the UK! And funnily enough he was arse and not allowed to teach Aero's or Formation. Yes I can think of a few stars, but for every Alan Wade there are 5 useless buggers. I believe 750 NAS tried to hire a CAA examiner for gods sake and he failed the conversion!

The main point it comes down to is that yes, you would get a few good guys in if you hired ex mil guys who are now civvy pilots in, but they would be in all aspects a first tourist and would have to go through the full training just like everybody else, costing just as much time and effort, with a vastly reduced payback in terms of years to serve.
We have no shortage of people wanting join up, just a shortage of experienced guys.
As a civvy pilot joining up, you are not experienced.
If you turn up at EFT with an ATPL, you will do exactly the same trips as everbody else, and would find out after about one week that your advantage had disapeared.

[Yellow Sun]

Once upon a time there was an organisation called the Air Transport Auxiliary (ATA). I am sure that if the need arose a similar organisation could be formed again. It has not been done, so we can only conclude that the need is not perceived.

YS

[Monty77]

I have to agree with Tourist.

He has shown no condescension to anyone. Military flying training is totally different to civ flying training and doesn't make one different to the other.

Oh wait! News Flash!

Delivering a bomb onto the end of a laser beam in a hostile environment then returning to a basic airfield living in portakabins, getting paid relatively little and made to move your family every few years is clearly a total breeze compared to plugging in the autopilot at 400 feet, reading the paper for a few hours, then whinging about how crap your downtown 5 star hotel is, whilst beating off swarms of hosties with a ****ty stick.

It's a no-brainer!

BA will be in serious trouble as they try retain their experienced aircrew who will give up their Surrey mansions and bang on Whitehall's door seeking the care-free life militaire..

You can't be semi-skimmed in the military unless you teach at elementary or drive an unarmed taxi. We already have that. Babcock at Barkston, and the Kingair that flies the Q crews about (or used to). Again, provided by a civvy air taxi company.

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Tourist

Yes you may ask a few questions just listen to the answers.......

How exactly do you fly a light turbo prop in a military manner, what are you doing in them ?

What do you do in your Kingairs that civilians do not do in theirs.

Your 200's are EXACTLY the same as civvie versions the yanks but bigger donks in and fly the 200's to 15,000lb. Not RAF just plain old Vanilla B200's not strengthened not faster just the same. Just cos somebody can chuck one around a circuit low level does not make it any more difficult to fly operationally. Guy I spoke to said that the Collins Proline kit made it more capable than most tonkas.

Monty

Kingairs dont carry bombs neither do islanders (apart from paras) which is exactly the point, they CANT nobody wants to get into a pissing contest about which is better, Tourist is correct horses for courses. Like others when I see serious FJ kit being operated properly I stop what I'm doing and watch but we are talking about very civvie derived kit adopted for use by the RAF, to say that Civvies cant use them to their design limits and beyond sometimes is just BS cos they do.

[youngskywalker]

I think it was the comment that to be a civvy Pilot all one needs is a big wad of cash that has upset a few of us! Whilst it is true that most civvy Pilot's do have to pay for a licence one way or another, it does still require an enormous amount of motivation and determination to succeed, sadly money cannot buy you that! Plenty wannabe civvy Pilot's fail despite having the available funds behind them. Military Crews pay for training by commiting many years of your life to the service of the Crown, living in tents in a warzone and being moved away from home every few years, so ultimately we all pay if we wish to be aviators! Some of you guys and gals in the forces feel that civilians do not pay you enough respect or admire the sacrifices that you make, it goes both ways, we feel that Mil Pilots look down their noses at civilians. We all share the same passion, we all love aeroplanes, why dont we just have a big group hug!! :O

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

"to say that Civvies cant use them to their design limits and beyond sometimes is just BS cos they do."

Not sure we want that sort of amateur tomfoolery in the military :=

[youngskywalker]

I don't know, have you tried it? I'm assuming that when your military career ends you wont wish to pursue a civilian flying career if it is so mentally unchallenging? I'm glad that I still have stacks of admiration for all of our armed forces, I will always look up when I see a military FJ flying over and feel that pang of jealousy, it's just a shame that you have such a poor opinion of us mere civilians.

[Roland Pulfrew]

G-SPOT

What do you do in your Kingairs that civilians do not do in theirs.

If you need to even consider asking that question, then you don't need to know!!:=

Before this turns into a Civ-Mil p:mad:g contest, could I please just sound a note of caution? COMSEC. :oh:

I can guarantee that anyone joining the RAF as a pilot with a commercial licence will do the syllabus along with their course mates. They may get through that syllabus slightly faster (missing out the odd trip here and there) but they will get to a point where their previous skills will run out as new ones are taught (low level and formation are but 2 worth mentioning). At that point they are in the same boat as their course mates.

No-one gets to join with the pure intention of becoming a pilot on X or Y aircraft. Everyone is assessed for suitability for FJ, ME or RW, therefore everyone has to meet the requirements of the most demanding stream. That means (at present) no glasses, no asthma and age limits for entry to training. If you don't meet the requirements, you don't get in - regardless of how many hours and what licenses you have.

There is a big difference between flying an aircraft and operating it. :E

[Pontius Navigator]

Roland has the size of it. Alex may have been a schoolie but he has been out 9 years. This suggests an age in the mid-30 of more. He has no special skills such as an instructor's ticket. Even if accepted on a limited ticket with a path to KingAir QFI he would need to go to CFS.

The only thing going for him is he can fly. Beyond that there is no evidence of standard nor of ability to fly any other type except a light-twin piston, a type not widely used in military service.

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Roland

Comsec is not an issue here and I'm not going to let you use it as a get out of Jail card. For the record nobody is showing any disrespect for the numerous servicemen of all flavours on manouvres.

Yep FJ, large turboprop,RW deserve our full respect for having been through the system. Landies out of the back of hercs and Typhoons at 9G Full marks you sincerely earn our respect........but hang on a minute, I have here a B200 operating manual that says...and I quote VMO 260 kCAS and load factor limits of + 3.17G and - 1.27G

Many civilian pilots cut their teeth on 200's as a simple turbine first aircraft, I'm not on home turf here but I would welcome you to come over to the GA & Bizjets Forum and kindly tell some very experienced 30yr 200 pilots where we are going wrong.

Seldomfitforpurpose "to say that Civvies cant use them to their design limits and beyond sometimes is just BS cos they do."

Not sure we want that sort of amateur tomfoolery in the military

Definition of Amateur Tomfoolery......

Flying at sea level through an offshore windfarm having forgot to turn off your mode C. Yessssss seen it with my own eyes from an Irish sea radar room.

As for "Tomfoolery" you only have to spend two minutes in the mil forum before you get posts that begin with "I remember when........" & "What about the time". Dont get me wrong I'll laugh harder than the next guy but lets agree just not to go there shall we.

guys I'm not on about FJ or any other "specialist" bit of flying because you got me....sincerely full marks you do a great job that others could not do, but I'm on about a B200 here NOT A320's to Tenerife. Its an efficient way of getting some people from A to B and its not hard. Alex already said that he didn't expect to start harrier flying anytime soon. :ugh:

By rerecruiting some people to fly the more elementary tasks it might give some guys who have recently returned from far away postings a little more R & R as another poster said there has already been the precedent set in the past especially when the services are up against it.

To flame the guy with Elitist nonsense because he was offering to fly a 200 from A to B is just unfair.

To Finish

Pontius

He is flying a current military type

aidu

You are a knob

[Monty77]

G Spot

I've seen a Warrant Officer in the AAC stick an Islander on it's side in an extreme AOB turn to take a picture.

Of a dead body dumped on a footbridge in Northern Ireland. An alleged informer.

He had to use extreme angles of bank at low level because:

a. some bastard with a high-velocity sniper rifle may well have been waiting and using the body as bait.

b. the cloud base was 400 feet, but get on with it

c. given the border area, if he had gone 'international' there would have been an incident with the Irish Govt/police.

I saw it.

Civvy Air Taxis don't provide that service, don't have access to secure mil r/t nets and don't need it anyway.

Bring on your ATPL holders who are as capable as their military equivalents.

Then send them to the Middle East.

It's simply not the same.

You pinko commie faggot.

(If you can't take a joke, it's your fault, not mine)

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Monty

Pinko Commie Faggot

Goodun.....Couldn't think of a witty retort within 60 secs so you can have that one ....... :{

speak to the civvy guys who are operating F406's on the fisheries contract at extreme AOB at 100ft with a 45 ft span in rough seas. in the main all self improver civilian guys with ex mil radar chaps down the back.

They do this every day. VHF/UHF/Marine freqs and AWACs coordination into live danger areas as spanish trawlermen do not concern themselves with red edged lines on a map.

Dont want to get into a pissing contest with you. I simply wish to make you and your peers aware that this sort of thing takes place outside of the military by civilian trained pilots on most days ending with a Y.

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Tourist

Thanks for the PM.

You are of course quite right, back to my hutch (Bizjets & GA forum)

[r2_unit]

AIDU,

From what exact location are looking down your nose at civ pilots?

I blush with embarrassment-by-proxy every time I read one of your posts.

:yuk:

[MarkMeter]

Any monkey can fly it, but the task involves a lot more than flying from A to B. Aircraft operate in difficult environments and an awarness and understanding of the 'air picture' is essential and not easily acquired by any tom dick or harry.

[CirrusF]

It is hardly difficult to fly an Airbus to Teneriffe compared to flying a Harrier in Afghanistan. In your Airbus you just put the gear up and sit back whilst the Autopilot flies it and eventually lets you taxi it at the other end after an auto landing. Although I guess you must be busy reading the newspaper and answering the odd radio call when pestered by ATC


It is hardly difficult to fly a Harrier in Afghanistan compared to flying an Airbus in Tenerife. In your Harrier, you're in a small, lightweight, single-engine VFR machine with plenty of instantly available power to get you out of trouble, you just waggle the stick while the fly-by-wire keeps it pointing straight, and if you get lost you can just stop and hover for a bit until you've read the map. Though I guess you must be busy looking at the pretty view and answering the odd radio call when pestered by ops ;-)

Seriously, full respect to the mil guys, but please show us some respect too.

Incidentally, on a more serious note, if my quals are useless to the military, does anybody know of any civvy or quango operators in the sandpit looking for pilots? I saw an ad in FI a while back for DC3 pilots, but not rated on them. There must be some other civvy jobs out there?

[r2_unit]

cirrusfrance,

I bet my left testicle AIDU doesn't fly Harriers.

[CirrusF]

cirrusfrance,

I bet my left testicle AIDU doesn't fly Harriers.


I think that it has become evident to us all with (especially) that last post that he is not a pilot of any description. Could the mods chuck him off before the thread loses interest?

[Pontius Navigator]

Pontius

He is flying a current military type

Indupitably Sir but "flying Islanders then latterly King Airs" are hardly frontline and no indication that he could handle heavy metal or helicopters or any of the AT aircraft.

The bottom line is that he is overage and not flying state of the art hardware.

aidu

You are a knob

You are not all bad, at least we agree with somethings.

[youngskywalker]

I think the chap is as equally unpopular with his mil colleagues if you read his history!

[CirrusF]

If you read his history, I think it becomes clear that he is a walt. (http://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/Walt)

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

cirrus,

I strongly suspect you are wrong, but following your link which would suggest you are a fully paid up ARRSE I found this, ring any bells?


Ex-Forces Walts

This sub-group make up stories about their time in uniform to impress their new civilian colleagues and/or employers. They don't recognise that they are walts at all and usually end up back on ARRSE bigging it up in the belief that no-one will recognise them. Consider this recent extract from a rather uncautious new member: "On another note - when constructing your own CV for job hunting, I have found that you can just about make up any kind of bull**** for your military career. You can insert any kind of information during your military service that relates to the job you are going for and potential employers have no way of verifying your claims. If references are asked for then you state that person has been posted, cant trace him etc.." ....... Really now? Is that so?

Now remember when I suggested you could re join in your old trade if you were really serious about giving something back to the Army, you looked into that yet :rolleyes:

[Alex HH]

Maybe he is too old to rejoin paras? Maybe he just does not want to be goaded by you into talking about his previous service?

If cirrusfrance had retrained as a doctor, and he applied to join the RAMC rather than rejoin the infantry, would you be sneering at him for that too?

Having just looked into this thread again, it is really disappointing to see some of the elitist attitudes here. I can well understand that the military is just not that stretched to consider the option at the moment. However, some of the claims that no civilian pilot could put a Defender into a steep turn, or that an ATPL would not last a week on EFT, seem designed to insult rather than add anything constructive. It is not the sort of attitude that I remember from the RN.

Anyway, that's all I have to say. My last post and goodbye!

[airborne_artist]

If cirrusfrance had retrained as a doctor, and he applied to join the RAMC rather than rejoin the infantry, would you be sneering at him for that too?Not an accurate comparison, as the military do not undertake ab initio training of doctors to a wholly unique set of standards. The professional standard for entry as a doctor to the military is the civilian standard.

[CirrusF]

I don't think that was the argument that Alex was making. At least, not the way I read it. He was answering a post where somebody suggested that I just rejoin my old unit. I think he was trying to point out that both of us would quite naturally wish to volunteer the new skills we have acquired, and ask if they would be any use to our former units (which is what I first did). Would you really expect (say) a former soldier who was re-enlisting to simply not mention that, by the way, he had in the meantime qualified as a doctor?

FWIW, and as one would expect from the army, the AAC did indeed examine my application with care and imagination, and considered how best to take advantage of it. Luckily there are plenty of energetic people in the services (usually the ones who rise to the top) who do think outside the block, and who try to take advantage of opportunities rather than invent obstacles to protect the status-quo and avoid actually doing anything. However, they decided in the end that they had no structure in place to take on a single volunteer of my age and background - which I fully understand. There was no bragging from them that "oh you wouldn't last a week on EFT".

[airborne_artist]

The real issue, of course, is not so much the comparability of civilian qualifications with Service qualifications, but the capping of the entry age for aircrew officers (24 for the RAF, 26 for the RN).

I think that the RAAF and the RNZAF have much higher entry age limits; is this true?

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

"The real issue, of course, is not so much the comparability of civilian qualifications with Service qualifications, but the capping of the entry age for aircrew officers (24 for the RAF, 26 for the RN)."

Add to that there are queues of guys who DO meet the age criteria etc trying to get into every cockpit seat imaginable why on earth would the Military make exceptions based on what Alex and cirrus may or may not bring to the party :confused:

[youngskywalker]

Okay I think we have established that fact, they simply asked a question, I really dont see the need to continue kicking them when already down. Many of us civilian Pilots are probably very naive with regard military flying but it would be nice if some of you could dampen that naive enthusiasm with a little less aggression!

[Wader2]

youngSW,

True. Also what I don't think has been mentioned, probably because Alex had held a commission, is that a military pilot is an officer first (AAC excepted) and a pilot second. This is an important point and although it is possibly unheard of for a doctor to be refused a commission for lack of officer qualities I have heard of a nurse who was rejected.

These factors, together with the unproven nature of Alex's abilities beyond twin props (tri?) and his undoubted age will all tell against similar civil-military cross over.

While EFT and BFT have been mentioned the OCU has not. While a civilian pilot may be a perfectly capable stick he is expected to be at a certain standard when presenting at the OCU. I don't mean ability to fly but of service knowledge and all that gpoes with it.

We had a current RN schoolie, who was working in a lightblue capacity, who was encouraged to cross over and become a navigator. I believe the cross over was a formality and he returned in short order as a student. It still took him 2 years to reach a sqn.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

"We had a current RN schoolie, who was working in a lightblue capacity, who was encouraged to cross over and become a navigator. I believe the cross over was a formality and he returned in short order as a student. It still took him 2 years to reach a sqn."

Probably struggled to find it :E

[Tigger_Too]

Incidentally, on a more serious note, if my quals are useless to the military, does anybody know of any civvy or quango operators in the sandpit looking for pilots? I saw an ad in FI a while back for DC3 pilots, but not rated on them. There must be some other civvy jobs out there?

Try:

Moz Mostert
Chief Pilot (Beechcraft)
Norse Air

www.norseair.co.za
[email protected]

[dinoorin]

The willy waggling contest continues

[kinsville]

Gents,

Can anyone assist?

Have managed to find time and wonga to eventually do my PPL, however, very aware that there are more cowboys out there than a South London list of plumbers.

Any advice, recommendations?

[airborne_artist]

If you are current/former UK military then get along to an RAF flying club.

RAF Flying Clubs' Association (RAFFCA) - Contacts (http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafflyingclubs/contacts/)

[Pontius Navigator]

Probably struggled to find it :E

Did I suggest that?;)

[I'm Off!]

I can only echo what AA said - RAF Flying clubs will provide you with cheap rates, minimum flying needed to pass, and instruction that is focussed on getting you through a test whilst bearing in mind your past flying experience. I used Cosford and they were utterly helpful, professional, and were not interested in extracting more money from me than I absolutely had to spend.

Pick one that is geographically convenient for you and you shouldn't go wrong!

[The Hook Hacker]

seems we have scared him away with the usual c*rappy deterioration of the thread.

I tried to send him a name of someone who is in a position to assist but he has not answered. Perhaps he isn't genuine or perhaps not actually interested in flying Military aircraft after all.

Chaps on this forum who believe Military Piloting is more difficult than civilian take one step forward if you have tried both. Yes I thought so.

[AllyPally]

As someone who has tried both and still does civil perhaps I can answer Hook Hacker.

In my field rotary I would say that military is more difficult and demanding. This is because military is so varied while civil - in my case N Sea is routine by design and nature. The oil companies don't want their pax placed in dangerous situations.

The only time that civil becomes demanding is when the weather is poor but it still is far easier than creeping up a cloudy mountainside to rescue an injured climber.

The other thing I have noticed is the wild variation in ability of civil co-pilots - some are excellent, the majority as you would expect are average but some are never going to progress to command. This didn't happen in the military as the below average never made it to the LHS (rotary). This is because during upturns, causing shortages, the companies will not be as selective as during downturns when they can pick and choose.

AP

[The Hook Hacker]

Ally old boy,

if you think the driver airframes flying in the Uk Mil today would all have passed and been retained 20 years ago you are very wrong. Standards have not so much slipped as the bar has has been lowered severly. Which is a good thing.

Nowadays you do not need to be Harrier material to fly a C130; re-training is common place. For example failed Rotary pilots now go onto C130 or VC10, which is a good use of of resources. Although the large fixed wing community do not admit to such of course.

But one skill set harder than the other? No, just different. Not all are cut out for the Boll**ks freely dished out in the MIlitary, and not all Military can survuive without it! But flying is flying.

Still don't know where Alex HH went though! He was clearly Civvy only material as he shot off at the first sight of heat, albeit in a PPrune forum!

[st nicholas]

Having been out of the military for 10 years and having served in all 14 years I think we are all missing the point. Who cares which tradesman is more competant.

Who would want to be reemployed by the state. Not I , not with medium payscales. Low morale as a result of being overworked and away from family for extended periods of time. Government leaning on the one manager who tells the truth about 2 wars sapping morale.

Me now, Private employer , good pay, home all year and 170 days off.
A fair employer with good pilots council. The only bummer is the economy and oil prices

Happy with my choice.