AAC Pilots Flying Pay Fiasco

[Eight Eights Blue]

Guys and Gals,

Time to rekindle a smouldering fire. I have been listening with interest all the stories about the fiasco with flying pay and as one of those who stands to lose effectively 18,000 fine english pounds, I would be interested to hear from anyone who is in the same position, and I know a few.
I think, having heard lots of stories that there is scope for a real push on this to get some kind of justice for what has happened. Having discussed the fiasco with a few senior officers, they agree too.
What it requires is a strong case to put forward with the backing of all involved, a list needs to be promulgated and letters written to the relevant agencies. It is no good everyone doing it individually as it hits file 13 and no action taken. A syndicate or petition based action group is the only way forward, I believe. Now if someone has more information about it or any better suggestions then we all need to hear about it.
Rules change, posts are moved and time moves on but I for sure feel that there is no losses in pursuing what I was led to believe for many years, 4,8 and 12. (Aircrew productive service)
There has to be a case to be answered even if it is misguidance of earnings as there are letters out there from higher formations clearly stating 4,8 and 12.
We dont need individual stories as we all know what the system has done to you. what is needed is genuine backing for what I see as 18000 in my pocket, offsetting my mortgage and not in the back pocket of some MP who gets more in expenses over 12 months.
Lets get stuck in now peeps and get the ball rolling.
Most will know who I am and where I am at so get in touch.

[ralphmalph]

Eight Eights Blue,
I gather there is a move afoot to get things changed for the good. However I personally have had my fill of no-one fighting my case!. I may be being cynical but the AAC and in particular the last couple of years have made me not want to lay down and get myself kicked in the nuts anymore!.

The past two/three years have done irrepairable damage to the Corps.

Stroll on transfer or civvy street!

Its not really the money for me, its the principle of the fact that we should be being fought for not shafted and being told we should "consider ourselves lucky to be flying!"

Ralph

[Alfie Stenloop]

EEB,

I must agree with the above comments, again I am one of the 85% or so who have been screwed over by the previous Director and his cronies (good to see he was awarded for bringing the AAC to it's knees - well done). I have made the conscious decision to leave the Army next year at my IPP, and am already in the process of interviews and job applications. It's a real shame as I have generally had 4500Hrs and 21yrs of fun and pleasure, flown with some great people and served in some great Flt's/Sqn's, but I see no real future in the AAC, therefore time to go. The pay issue was really the straw that broke the camels back for me, just about summed up how lowly we are valued and they still wonder why huge numbers are leaving/planning to leave/transferring to another Service.

Having worked very closely with the new breed over the lst 2-3 years, I wish them well and if they have half as much fun as I have had during my career then they will leave content people, although probably just as frustrated with the appalling management and policy that exists within the Corps. Heard yesterday about a chap who is posted (not through choice and fulfilling a requirement of the Corps) to an E2 post and as a result is having his flying pay reduced by 25% and frozen at that level until he returns to flying or flying related post, they wonder why we are leaving.

Anyway moan over and out! :mad:

[Gnd]

I tried to jump but they offered me the same job as I got on the other side, a good, one. Nice move and if you push you can get satisfaction (stop it!!!)

Still think that I should jump before I am pushed. i am above the P1 argument but am appauled by the crass neglect of the honoured person!!!

Youre,

Confused!!!!!

[ralphmalph]

8/8,
Just interested, who are the "senior" officers?....if they actually gave a **** then I imagine we would not be in this situation. I thought that having a commission was all about "management"!.

Ralph

[Sloppy Link]

Alfie, your pal is misinformed or you have picked up the wrong end of the stick. He will retain his flying pay in an E2 post for the first three years and then it wil reduce by 25%. A further three years wil see a further reduction of 25% and then after three more years it will go altogether. On resumption of a post that atracts "ph", his flying pay will resume as if he had not been away including any time related increments. One tour in an E2 post will not see any financial disadvantage.

SL

[Bofaboy]

Ralp Malph,

Can you give any more details on your statement that "there is a move afoot to get things changed". I too have been shafted by the crass flying pay shenanigans etc. Are they seriously thinking of reversing this desision and making good the payments? I would be very surprised if they did but we live in hope....

Thanks

BB

EEB PM sent.

[Bofaboy]

Has this rekindled, smouldering fire been snuffed out as well? Any updates anyone?

[Jack Stohl]

Chaps,

I understand the state of play regarding flying pay is this:

Current argument put forward by PS10 states that any time at E2 (including ICSC(L)) does not count as time towards the next band of flying pay, whereas time spent at E1 will.

This means that for a high calibre officer who wishes to gain a breadth and depth of understanding of defence outside the AAC will 'mark time' on their current rate of flying pay until they are posted back to E1 (in most cases that would hopefully be Sqn Comd).

So, this ruling will affect all those officers on basic or middle rate flying pay who are about to start, are in the process of or have completed ICSC(L) AND any officers who subsequently were posted to E2. For some of us, this will mean at least a 3 year delay to when we thought we were entitled to the next rate of flying pay. Interestingly, this ruling does not apply to the RAF as they see no distinction between E1 and E2! Nor does it apply to those officers who volunteer for ACSC (note the emphasis).

The AAC is fighting the ruling and have cited a number of cases where individuals will lose out on upwards of £15,000 over the next few years, but I fear that this is another classic case of too little too late. I understand that no information will be promulgated from 'HQ AAC' until a final decision is made.

At a time when the AAC are losing more than 50% of the Beige List each year, I find the whole situation quite distasteful - flying pay has always been peddled as a retention measure. Quite how that argument holds now is beyond me.

As an aside, if PS10 action this policy, MCM will find themselves in the unenviable position of having to post some people into E2 jobs with the caveat that they will be financially worse off than somebody posted to an E1 job at MW (for example) which may still have little to do with the realm of aviation.

I am one of these officers who will be severely disadvantaged (just not one of the 'high calibre' ones I mentioned at the top of the post!)

Rgds

Jack

[Bofaboy]

So according to Jack's post this situation is over and above the mess that happened in 2006 when they changed the goalposts concerning when you move between rates.

I thought that you had to spend an amount of time (can't remember the timeframe at E2) before your flying pay was affected but Jack's post seems to indciate that it is more immediate than this.

I am currently on an E2 post from the OCE, does that mean I will mark time for 6 months regarding flying pay?

Just this once-E1 jobs are jobs that require an AAC Officer to fill the post and they are annotated ph.

E2 jobs are wider Army jobs that theoretically any Army officer can do. They are popular as they do not involve an AAC reporting chain and demonstrate breadth in any career portfolio.

BB

[Jack Stohl]

To clarify a point made by Bofaboy:

The rules regarding the amount of time spent at E2 appear to remain extant i.e: reduction to 75% of current rate of flying pay after more than 3 years away from E1 or regtl duty

BUT:

Whereas before, the 4 yearly increments between each rate of flying pay continued regardless of whether you served at E1 or E2, now the situation is that the accrual rate will stop and will only start again when you are posted back into an E1 post.

I would give you a working example, but I'm not that clever and my identity would be only too apparent!

Please feel free to PM me if you want to chat this issue over.

Rgds

Jack

[AHQHI656SQN]

What happens to PA spine when away from E1?

[serf]

Can you be away from E1 when you are PA - surely that is what non PA aircrew are for?

[ChristopherRobin]

For what it's worth, I left last month and am now enjoying my 'retirement'.

Why did I leave?

I'd never fly again after this tour although I said in my resignation letter that if I transferred to the RAF I could take a drop in rank, keep the same (or better pay) and continue to fly; if that option was available to me in the AAC I would probably have stayed. If it came with the FRI that DAAvn, in what can only be described as 'a senior moment', decided that we didn't need then it would have been a no-brainer.

But the fact that I wouldn't fly, wouldn't get the FRI and wouldn't go on to enhanced flying pay until - 18 months I think - much later than previously led to expect, the only option is the one I have taken.

And why didn't I transfer to the RAF? That's a different story that I'm not sure the light blue chaps who read this (if any) would appreciate to be aired and I'm feeling in far too good a mood to sully the thread with another polemic right now.

And as for my resignation letter - my CO didn't even have the courtesy to answer it and nor did Glasgow despite the fact it was absolutely positive about the Corps and what they were achieving in theatre and despite the fact that I was deployed on ops at the time of writing.

But I'll tell you this - the treatment I got from the person who runs retirements (and laughingly also manages LE officers careers - the poor b@stards) in the AAC office in Glasgow shames a once-great corps. After 17 years, no thanks (not that any was really expected) and no favours (despite the fact that I returned from ops only 4 months before my discharge date) and no recognition of a difficult, compressed situation was taken into account. When I remonstrated that the way I was being treated was a tad unfair, the reply, and I quote verbatim, was:

"That's your fault for going on operations!"
I replied "So it's a bad thing to volunteer for ops now, is it?" - for like a keen soldier, that's what I had done;
but answer there came none.

He then wrote me a letter stating that if I did not comply with the points in the letter by 8 weeks prior to the start of terminal leave, I would jeopardise the timely payment of my pension lump sum. No problemo, except the date worked out as....2 weeks before he wrote the letter! Needless to say, my pension is late....

So expect no favours is the moral. And expect not even a reply from some (pointedly, though, not all) your senior officers is the warning. I have to say at this point, that I have been humbled by the consideration shown by some very senior officers whom I respect immensely as a result, once again proving that it is individuals in the wrong place that can make your life difficult indeed.

On balance, I had a great career and will certainly not let the last 4 months of it detract from the preceding 16 and a half years, but a person who could have been retained wasn't and the natural inertia I had built up with regard to leaving was eroded well into reverse by the lack of recognition that not all of us wish to become Generals, and that when in a shortfall of pilots, some of them could be retained by keeping them flying.

But no. A perfect storm of desk job looming, significantly delayed pay, discriminatory FRI between the services and having the scales lifted from my eyes about the resettlement process has resulted in my current situation:

...which is retiring to fly beside one of the best surfing beaches in Europe, earning more money, and walking distance from a very nice pub - all of which will, I hope, allow me to put individuals' poor performance into perspective.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

A very sad indictment indeed and those senior to you involved should bow their heads in same, I wish you the very best of luck in your new endeavour in what sounds like an idyllic location :ok:

[ChristopherRobin]

Thanks, Seldom. and an update, my pension went in today, so it wasn't overly late I suppose, but had been a worry due to the enormous interest my outrageous overdraft was costing.

All thanks to paying for some extra flying qualifications and, let me tell you this, I'm £45k poorer for having got a type rating and a procedural instrument rating, but in comparison to going back to a desk job within the AAC, worth every last penny!

But if I could have done a few more years operational flying I'd have been happy to stay - when will they ever learn what makes (most of) us tick?

[minigundiplomat]

when will they ever learn what makes (most of) us tick?

Probably as the last person hands in their ID card. Good luck to all of you Army Air Corp chaps; you have had a poor deal for years and it is about time it changed.

MGD

[Greenielynxpilot]

ChristopherRobin -

Good luck in your new job. The Corps will certainly be duller without you, but what can you do? It just isn't the same is it once was.

BTW, what is Fermanagh's greatest Lynx pilot flying these days?

Greens ;)

[serf]

It will certainly be quieter without him!

[ChristopherRobin]

ayyythengyew!

A109E at the minute, and hopefully onto S-61 soon.

... and not a million miles from Fermanagh either!

[Jack Stohl]

ChristopherRobin

Check your PM

[Eight Eights Blue]

Still working on possible solutions when one hit the desk today.
A letter from DAAvn/HQAAC regarding retention and requesting possible solutions. Now if I have ever seen a golden opportunity to fire it straight to the heart then this is it and I certainly have. Hierachy have been tasked to get as much detail as possible from as many aircrew as possible with a view to and quote,
"So that someone can push forward with the suggestions to ensure the AAC get a good deal" or words to that effect.
Slight snag is that all returns have to be in by no later that 29th July 08 so no real time to ponder, just air your thoughts on the paper and get them sent in.
The results if any will be promulgated and passed on in due course and I guess everyone will wait with anxiety as to what the outcome will be.
Being cynical, probably nowt but hey if you dont voice your opinions then of course nowt will happen as the hierachy will naturally assume that the Corps is carrying on normal jogging and everyone is happy.
Get writing chaps and female chaps and get your voices heard.
If this comes as a surprise to anyone then ask your OC or Adjt as the letter is out there.

Summary:

RETENTION LETTER to be completed by 29 Jul 08 - DO NOT DELAY COMPLETION!

For those interested in this thread it may be worth a mention about the fiasco on the questionairre.