Are more or less people training to fly now?

[Toujours]

Would just like to get the feel of the industry. Let's say in your local flight school, are more people training in the present time or less?

[potkettleblack]

Assuming the question you really want answered is "what is the level of competition for jobs I am going to be up against", then the numbers of people attending FTO's is largely irrelevant. That is based on the argument that many many folk fall by the way side during the training. Bristol for example will send out thousands of sets of manuals but many will gather dust on peoples shelves and never get opened. Some people don't have the ability to pass the CPL or IR. Some brilliant aviators simply run out of money near the end and never finish.

Really what you need to get a feel for is the number of licence issues. The CAA website has various statistics going back a number of years. Its all there if you want to go and search under FCL and roam around a bit under the statistics header. Here is a link for the 2006-07 year to get you started.

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/Licence%20and%20Rating%20Issues%202006%20-%202007.pdf

You will never be able to nail down exactly the numbers of folks you will be competing with. The CAA data obviously only details UK issued licences and ratings. Some of those people will disappear back to their home countries seeking work. Others will come from the continent with non-CAA JAA licences. Perhaps it all balances out or maybe it doesn't. Who really knows.

At the end of the day its suffice to say that there will be hundreds if not thousands of people competing for a handful of jobs. The trick is to work out how to get to the front of the queue and get an interview in the first place. Flight training has never been cheaper (when compared to disposable income/average salaries etc) or more accessible which has increased the number of people undertaking the training and upped the ante.

[Toujours]

"Flight training has never been cheaper (when compared to disposable income/average salaries etc)..."

or more accessible which has increased the number of people undertaking the training and upped the ante.


Thanks potkettle. Regarding the highlighted above, can you please elaborate on this statement?

[potkettleblack]

Getting into this industry is now a process of self selection. You essentially wake up and decide one day that you want to be a pilot and so long as you have the required cash then a savvy marketing person at any FTO will gladly relieve you of an enormous sum of money.

In the past there were less jobs, fewer airlines to boot and a lot of jobs came through sponsored schemes. There were also avenues into civvy street for experienced military flyers. Whichever way you did it there were selection processes where your ability and aptitude were tested to ensure you were a "fit". Of course there was always the self improver route as it was called and the majority of these folks tended to go instructing before landing their first job. Back then the cost of self funding was huge in relation to earnings though which was itself a natural deterrent.

[Toujours]

Thanks potkettle. I see what you mean now.

[BigGrecian]

Flight training has never been cheaper (when compared to disposable income/average salaries etc)...

Additionally,

Pilot salaries have never been lower.... :bored:

[Okavango]

There's a lot of doom and gloom about employment, possibly rightly so. Though those figures don't look too bad to me and are about what I'd figured from the main integrated schools plus a reasoned guess at number of successful modular students. New ATPL's of 1200/year isn't so far beyond the predicted vacancy figures for future pilot requirements (in particular the ALTEON forecast in GAPAN), to suggest it's impossible to find a seat soon after qualification. Especially if one is prepared to relocate anywhere in the world for that first job? It looks to me that the odds are about the same as they would be for any good professional job, which again you wouldn't expect to just walk in to.

[Emmett01]

I agree with what okangano says....

Everyone thinks its just flying which people struggle to find employment, but think of other industries,,,, not everyone walks straight into a job, sure yes there are a few exceptions to this rule but people think because they can everyone can.... People just have to have patience...

which is why before doing flight training, it is better to have a degree of some sort, so that while u wait u can still move into another industry....

Ive done engineering myself there and kust graduating but I hope after cabair in september 09 when I finish training I can do engineering work for a while until I secure a job in what I really want to do(FLYING).... Its all bout stragety....

[Okavango]

Does anyone else have any other views - I'm surprised WWW and the other doom mongers haven't been along yet and need a balanced argument!!

[smith]

I have been at various schools recently for various reasons and they all tend to seem pretty busy in the briefing and planning rooms, don't know if this is an indication of people wanting to go the whole way and is not scientific in any way but it tends to suggest that people are ignoring www's advice.

[heli_port]

I would imagine as the credit crisis deepens and liquidity diminishes their will be less people training; last i heard OAA still had 10 places left to fill on the septermber course..

[tupues]

'which is why before doing flight training, it is better to have a degree of some sort, so that while u wait u can still move into another industry....'

Exactly. Put yourself in another £20000 debt before starting. That way you can use your geography degree to find the photocopier in your temp. job while you wait for your first airline position...

[Shiver me timbers!]

Exactly. Put yourself in another £20000 debt before starting. That way you can use your geography degree to find the photocopier in your temp. job while you wait for your first airline position...

I've just graduated with £12k debt - I really don't know how I'm going to afford the £22/month repayment minimum. Oh no :rolleyes:

I'm just relieved that my photocopier job will enable me to fund my modular training.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

You want me to Doom Monger? So far I've been mild and kind.

Spending £80k to get a quick 182hrs Frzn ATPL CPL/Multi IR MCC is a total waste of money and you are screwed.

Within months there will be hundreds of commercial pilots with thousands of hours out of work. Unless you are willing to work for nothing or pay to work you will be flipping burgers for a living.

Is that Doomy enough for you?

WWW


ps Sadly its all true.

[Okavango]

Yes - I do appreciate the graduate route is more debt burden these days. For what it's worth, I have a degree and my mates who didn't go to Uni are in similar well paid professional jobs now. They've tended to stay in the locality of home though and haven't had much life experience. Though I'd recommend university on the whole, in these circumstances I'd recommend getting a paid job (if possible aviation related) as soon as possible. If a medical etc stops you flying later you can always be a mature student, and in my experience these are the people who have been most successful (though it does take a LOT more committment to study later in life as other things take over, though this is no bad thing).

[Okavango]

Thanks WWW - to a certain extent I think you're right, most definitley in the near term. As a householder I can vouch for the change in the economy - we were having up to 5 foreign holidays a year over the last few years (including budget airline breaks), now we're looking at spending more time in the UK. I consider we're no more than average, so there simply has to be some effect on the airlines and I don't subscribe to the view that the foreign holiday is the last thing to go.

What I am saying though, is that the employment situation (on balance) is no different to any professional job. I guess it's just luck what part of the cycle you catch it in and prudent people will plan for the worst by having fallback options. In the long term, there simply has to be expansion, particularly China and India (and I don't see that they have adequate training?). Also opening up Iraq oil may change fuel prices etc in the medium to longer term. I'd be interested in your thoughts regarding the global pilot demand over the next 10 years.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Easy.

Globally the demand for pilots is sky rocketing.

In Europe and the US it is plummeting.

Which is perfectly analgeous for the shift in economic power from West to East. You only speak English, your license is JAA. You have no hope of benefiting from the Eastern expansion and will bear the full brunt of Western contraction.

Several large airline in Europe will be bust by this time next year. Thousands of experienced pilots will be looking for work. How is your CV going to look?

Be prepared to pay to work. That will be the next step.

WWW

[Emmett01]

TUPUES

I would say tupues is prob one these boys that never got to uni because they never accepted him......:\

But when your medical goes by the way side when your thirty and not a decent qualification to your name, and you start crying for money then and only then will you understand...

Remember your only a car crash or beer bottle over the head from lossing your medical...

By the way I did mechanical engineering at uni and was the best exper of my life so far, and would believe that an airline paying out £25,000 or £30,000 for a type rating on a low houred pilot they would go for someone wit some sort of third level education!!!!! (Quote from a training captain from easyjet)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

IF I had a child who wanted to be a pilot then I sure as hell wouldn't want them to go to University.

Been there and drank the t-shirt. 3 years, £12k of debt and a piece of paper that impresses nobody.

Some decent A-Levels to prove you are not thick is about as far as I would take formal education unless you want to enter one of the proper professions (medicine, law, accountancy).

The real return on investment on a degree is absolutely pitiful. Its also stressful and boring. No wonder the Labour party are so enthusiastic about them.


WWW

[Emmett01]

WWW

Thats in your own opinion and some people will agree but yes a drank the whole way through winged it the whole way, but I came out at the end of the day with a job workin now for Bombardier as a composite engineer earned around 28K before tax,,, not a bad start for going away to do flight training,,not to mention already involved in designing composite structure for engine nacelles... All in all university was well worth it and i didnt work the balls of myself!!!!

University must be different in England!!!!!

[heli_port]

I've just graduated with £12k debt - I really don't know how I'm going to afford the £22/month repayment minimum. Oh no :rolleyes:



I graduated with a similar level of debt and i managed to pay it off in 2 years. £22 / month if you just want to pay off the interest but you are going to have to pay allot more if you want to get rid of it this side of 2010. I was fortunate to have got on a grad scheme and on a £35K salary so as well as salary deductions i was paying £500-£1000 squid a month voluntary payment.

Sadly grad schemes are going the way of the dodo due to this credit nonsense :{


The real return on investment on a degree is absolutely pitiful. Its also stressful and boring. No wonder the Labour party are so enthusiastic about them.


I'm sorry www i must disagree with your above statement. I can only write about me and my classmates but we all got onto grad schemes paying £30K-£35k and within 5 years nearly quadrupled that with bonuses thrown in off course :p


Some decent A-Levels to prove you are not thick is about as far as I would take formal education unless you want to enter one of the proper professions (medicine, law, accountancy).


www if you have this much contempt for what you do i would jack it in m8 and join one of those proper professions you refer too :confused: In my opinion professional aviators belong to a proper profession.

[Lovesickguy]

In the NE USA, there seems to be very little signs of guys training now a days. even large flying colleges have shown a downturn.
LSG

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Heli_port - lovely, you made a packet from you degree, you studied something lucrative, Well Done.

Most Uni grads don't. They piss 3 years against the wall gaining a two one in an Ology from a red brick or worse. Whoopy doo.

If they wanted to be pilots then they could have cut that time and money out.


Don't think I'm some sort of moron who hates Uni as I was sponsored by the Military to attend a Red Brick on a course I though would be fun (it was) at which I excelled. Mortar Board aside it was all as waste of time and money.

If you want to fly then just learn to fly, etc.


WWW

[mikehammer]

WWW

I'm a cynic and I like your glib tone. Tell me, what do you think will end up as having caused the greater damage to the jobs market in the west:

a. The west/east shift to which you allude, coupled with the cliched global credit thingy and high oil price (due in part, no doubt to the west/east stuff and the east's demand for oil)

or

b. The September 11 terrorist attacks.

Consequently, in order to stick loosely to the original poster's question, what will end up as having had the greatest effect on the number of trainees?

[Okavango]

"Which is perfectly analgeous for the shift in economic power from West to East. You only speak English, your license is JAA. You have no hope of benefiting from the Eastern expansion and will bear the full brunt of Western contraction."

The international language of the air is English isn't it, so why not benefit? Also, can the eastern training organisations keep pace??

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Sept11th was a tiny blip. The coming collapse of Western economies is a Tsunami.

WWW

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

The international language might be English but every airline in the world can specify something else.

Pilot shortages may happen. But not never for <500hr wannabes. You are two a penny.


WWW

[Okavango]

Sketchy basis. Now what about the issue of eastern FTO's being able to keep pace?

[cfwake]

WWW

My views on going to uni can be found without difficulty on these forums and differ somewhat significantly from yours. Not wishing to start a bashing of skulls that will get us nowhere, I would say that going to uni isn't just about the degree, it gives you a chance to get out and experience a life outside living at home with mum and dad and being spoon fed things at school. Would you agree with me that EITHER a) going to uni and spending the time constructively (which I class as getting into the military units or similar social activities which encourage teamwork, leadership and a general air of maturity) or b) working for several years after school in order to get the same sort of life experience is pretty important in order to become the rounded character you need to succeed in aviation?

I suspect that your views on newbie pilots training straight from school and mum and dad's house are similar to mine. Just one of your earlier posts seems to suggest that if you want to be a pilot dive in after A levels, which I feel is wrong and puts you at a serious disadvantage when it come to finding a job. As you said, rather bluntly, us <500 hour guys are two a penny, therefore you have to be head and shoulders above the rest in order to succeed. Without getting out in the world, I would be amazed to hear that you would be the stuff of recruiters dreams and I am sure you would agree it is dangerous to allow anyone to believe other than that what is contained in the CV is what will get you the interview spot - we all have the aeroplane ratings to get one!

Just for the record, I went to a red brick and got a 2:1 in an 'ology', and I would not for one minute consider not going again. The opportunities you are presented with at uni are never there again, sure a lot of people waste them (p*ssing them up the wall or watching them, stoned, as they float by) but because I wasn't one of them and I got out and experienced things, the life experience I gained was A1, sure I came out with 12 grand debt, for which I shall be paying something like £25 a month off once I cross the earnings threshold. Not a small amount of total expenditure, but for the experience, I would pay it again tomorrow, and I am sure many, many who read these forums would do the same!

[heli_port]

cfwake great post - 100% agree with all your comments (i managed to get a jeff hurst ;))

Uni will make you a man! (a drunk nymphomaniac that eats pot noodles) but a man none the less! :p

i fear we have strayed from the original topic :(

[cfwake]

well you obviously did far too much work!

[flyboy1818]

There will be less people in training by the end of this year than last year, no doubt about that. From recent visits to serveral large FTO's (modular) it appears that the credit crunch/recession is yet to cut in. However the evidence of increased training costs is already upon us. I have seen a 15k CPL IR turn into a 30K CPL IR at near minimum hours. This will mean that less people will be able to afford flight training very shortly. If your in this for the long haul (40 year career) like me then its a good thing not a bad thing. Too many people have taken a two a penny fancy to flight training whilst the credit was cheap, these are the same idiots who pay for type ratings and line training. Thankfully there credit score has now run out and the real aviators can get back to business!

I'm looking forward to paying for my training upfront and graduating just as the market rebounds at a time when very few people are fresh from flight training!

[F/O UFO]

Is there not a good social scene on the ab-initio courses? I am making the Uni/ no Uni decision now!

[flyboy1818]

Go to uni, get a degree, get a well paid job and pay for it outright, whilst having a good time!

[cfwake]

Yes there is a good social scene on an ab initio course but it is very, very hard work and you need to be able to knuckle down and push through the work. Also, to emphasise my main argument - if you wrote a CV now, do you think it would stand comparison with the other people who will be competing with you for a job? If it reads: left school having lived at home, went to learn how to fly, then I would suggest that if the job climate is as gloomy as WWW would have us believe, then you'll have a tough time of things...

The opportunities and experiences (and friends) you'll get at uni will never, ever come around again and if you get out there and apply yourself to extra curricular stuff, you'll be out the other side in no time wondering how the hell you've been there three years, I left 2 years ago and it still feels like 5 minutes since I started!

You're a young guy, the aviation industry is in a poor state at the moment, why push on with training? In 3 or 4 years, it WILL have recovered, to whatever shape it must to survive, and you will (assuming you don't just sit around getting drunk and missing lectures) have plenty more to put on your CV. The worst thing I can imagine for an interviewer when asking for teamwork or leadership examples is repeatedly hearing 'Well, when I was at Oxford...' because it's all you have!

[mikehammer]

I'm not sure I would agree that September 11th was a tiny blip. As a then wannabe I would say that, taking those I knew who were training at the same time, and the length of time post Sept 11th it took for everyone to find jobs (I'll admit to being almost the slowest - deliberately - there is one left to go) that things have only returned to normal for sub 500 hours pilots within the last 12 or 18 months. Now it's on the way back down again. Great.

Interestingly, due to a general lack of money which is causing the downturn, I suppose there will be fewer new students with the means to start training, although I don't suppose this will ever balance the fall in the number of new jobs.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I went to Uni in 1993 - 1996 as:

a) The RAF were closing down RAF(G) and didn't need any new pilots, and

b) The UK was in the depths of the early 1990s recession, Air UK, DanAir, Laker, and Caledonian had all gone recently bust/bought for a £1 and the chances of entering commercial aviation were somewhat shorter than nil.

By 1997 things were picking up, PPRuNe had been invented, sponsorships were starting to appear en-masse. By 1999 I had jacked in the graduate job and become a full time flying instructor. Those years at University were an excellent holding pattern whilst the economy and the airline sector nosedived and recovered. I still see Uni as having that function today.

I was lucky that I had a lucrative summer job, I was in the UAS flying a Bulldog and Uni was free back then under a Conservative government.

The years 18 - 21 will be special and amazing whether you go to Uni, travel the world, start a shoe shine business or work on a building site. The small amount of study, high expense and length of time required for an average degree are all good reasons not to bother. You CV will stand out and look far more interesting if you spent 3 years sailing boats as part of a qualified crew than it would if you got a 2:1 from Hull in Geography.

You'd be less in debt and would have experienced a fair bit more of life than you would have done living in a student doss house getting up for the afternoon Neighbours episode. You'd also have a sun tan, a bit of cash in the bank and some amazing pictures that don't involve a mortar board or a traffic cone on your head.

Sept11th resulted in an 18 month 10% decline in traffic numbers and two EU airlines went bust (Swiss and Sabena). The coming oil price spike, recession and war will result in a far worse and far longer decline in traffic numbers and far more airline failures.

WWW

[cfwake]

Just for my part, I went to uni, got a 2:1, played rugby for said uni AND spent (2) years getting paid to sail boats around as part of a qualified (Royal Navy) crew! I would say, just don't waste your time, it's all there for you, it's up to you to squander the chances!

Also just to add, as a member of the URNU, I earned money (easily covered all my costs for socialising with the URNU from the pay I got from them), went on summer deployment to northern France for 2 weeks each year (4 in the first year to be honest) for a sun tan, being paid 33 quid for every day of sailing around with your mates, and never, ever dossed around in a house watching Neighbours...plenty of photos other than mortar boards and traffic cones (although I got ones of those as well!)

Sorry WWW, just can't help yanking your crank! Especially when the aviation outlook is pretty much equally as bleak as you were experiencing when you went!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Hey - I was flying a Bulldog in the UAS during the week and instructing on the Vigilant in the VGS at weekends and packed plenty into my three happy years at Uni.

But this is not always the case and the cost/benefit of a basic three year degree these days doesn't really stake up if your intention is to self sponsor a CPL IR/Frzn ATPL. It stopped impressing anybody or opening any doors years ago.

WWW

[cfwake]

Hmm, not entirely convinced that it is of no use, especially after having spoken to recruiters from many fields of work, but I doubt we're going to get very far arguing the toss any more...I hope that we can agree that starting flying training when you've done nothing of note in your life is a pretty bad idea, though?

[F/O UFO]

As far as I am concerned sooner or later I will go into flight training (assuming I don't go blind or anything else like that). I've been told by many people, not least my dad that Uni is great fun- but going to uni for 3 years, then flight training for 18 months on top of that is both a long winded and very costly way of getting a fATPL and your first job.

Is it not more sensible to gain the fATPL, then maybe go and live in a student area and have that lifestyle having gained my first job? This way I would have gained my fATPL by the time most of my friends are just about to start uni (most of them taking gap years after college).

On top of this, most people come out of Uni and get their first job, If I were to go to uni I would effectively not start earning anything to payoff my huge debts until 23!

Thanks for all the help folks- please keep the advice comming :)

[tupues]

By going to uni not only are you spending 12k+ you are missing out on 3 years salary as a pilot which if you think about it, is actually 3 years Captain salary. So your degree could actually cos you +/- £312000 in the long run.

[gfunc]

"So your degree could actually cos you +/- £312000 in the long run."

Sorry to sound like a crusty old hippy, but there is more to life than money. Plus if the worst happens and you lose your class 1 and you don't have a bit of an insurance policy (like a backup degree) you also stand to lose three years or more at captain salary.

I've been at uni for nearly ten years, I did a batchelors in the UK then came to the US to do a Masters and PhD, the last two were completely paid for, I get a salary (thanks US taxpayer!) and I get to do exciting fieldwork like flying over the African Sahel at 500ft in BAe 146 (albeit not up front). I'm finishing up my final degree and there are a number of options open to me, including chasing the pilot dream (I'll get there some day!). It's a cliche but I feel I am rich in everything except money.

To put the stinky hippy hat back on: don't get so focussed on the destination that you miss the journey. I know airline pilots like to moan, but aside from the ever present big watches the industry doesn't seem as the same these days as when most of us started dreaming. Work hard, but enjoy yourselves.

Gareth.

[cfwake]

Yeah you could go and live in a student area when you get a job, as long as you can accept that you're NOT a student, you'll be working - HARD - and the last thing you'll want is to be kept awake at night by people coming back from clubs etc at 3 or 4 in the morning, and that that is most likely what will happen a few times a week.

Once you've left uni, you've left. Especially being a pilot which requires you to work odd and unsociable hours, it is unrealistic to think that having finished training you can then go and soak up the student lifestyle - you can't, you've missed the boat.

Your mates, won't have a job as soon, but they won't look back in a few years and realise that when they should have been enjoying themselves and getting out in the world, they were training full time and are now stuck in a career which gives them no leeway for the next 40 years.

And of course, that CV is going to look awfully bare...

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Lets see. My degree from 1996. I poke an eye out tomorrow and am out of the flying business. You think my CV is going to shine with a 12 yr old degree which I haven't used for 9 years since I got my professional license is going to get me anywhere as a backup?

Not a chance.

As a backup plan a £12,000 three year degree course is rubbish.


WWW

[FlightDeckDave]

That's rubbish! A degree doesn't necessarily have to show your knowledge in one field. A degree also has the purpose of showing you are capable of learning and disciplining yourself to learn to a certain level of education.

Unless you are doing a vocational type of degree (doctor/nurse/midwife etc) or going into a specific field, I have found that most of your education starts when you start your career. It’s the same with learning to fly or drive, once you've passed those exams and you're on your own that is when the learning starts!

I believe that 50% of the experience of going to University is to grow up, have fun, goto social clubs, carry out team sports and meet new people. As has been said many times before, I find many of my answers to interview questions come from my experience at Uni.

By all means make sure you go to Uni for the right reasons but don't skip it and regret not going later.

[Shiver me timbers!]

WWW - I think it depends on how you define the term backup plan. For example, I see my backup (my grad job) as security so as to be able to keep up repayments on any debts I might entail over the next few years whilst training, and afterwards whilst looking for pilot jobs. I guess others may see it this way too.

This isn’t to say that anyone who really wants their office to be in a cockpit cannot work hard, save hard and train hard after leaving school whilst starting e.g. an apprenticeship or similar! – I have many friends who’ve done this and they earn a nice packet, albeit not as pilots.

The whole topic is very subjective and there is no right or wrong answer - of course if you lose your license after X years you're likely to start from the bottom in another industry and thus the degree is useless, but I'm pretty sure given a slight bit of common sense and experience an ex-pilot could land a decent ground job within aviation.

FlightDeckDave - totally agree on the 50% thing. Some of the most important things I've learned are dependency from the parents and friends, money/time management and interacting with other people.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

A-levels do that and there are plenty of other ways of giving you life experiences that don't take 3 years of £4k a year fees, pays nothing and often involves dull lecture theaters.

The hijacking of Youth by the world of Academia is one of the greatest tragedies of the 20th century.


WWW

[Philpaz]

I have several friends with degree's, one with a PHD and i myself have umpteens of trade related quals and neither i nor they have ever been asked to prove it. I know lots of people , including myself that are where they are today from who they know, not what they know. And besides, since any tom dick and harry can get a degree in anything these days there value has plumetted, as with anything. Flood the market with cheap and easy degree's and there value declines. Just ask the person that serves you next time you go through the drive through.
I think apprenticeships are the way to go, the way i went. I have loads of little teaboys with nice pieces of paper, doesn't make there brews taste nicer :p

[cfwake]

WWW, you left uni in 1996, 12 years ago, and since have doubtlessly gained extensive experience in your chosen field of work with thousands of hours PIC.

Of course, whatever your chosen field of work was, the degree that you did not use would now be of (very) limited importance. However you are, as I have just said, and as everyone is fully aware, NOT straight out of education, at whatever level, with no experience in your chosen field and you are not working towards a first job along with thousands of other low hour newbies. I would be unimpressed with my life if 12 years after leaving uni I had added nothing worthwhile or more significant than my degree.

Your ability to use it for backup died long ago, as you well know. Educational achievements are, pretty much universally, invalid once you have moved on to the next stage of life and career. Well most newbies are still at the stage after school or uni, and at this level, it IS relevant, especially as a place where many of us have gained any significant life experiences so far, as this thread is confirming.

A degree outside the world of aviation does still have a large part to play in being able to formulate a backup plan should the worst happen soon after licence issue.

Some would argue that as a career option, having spent either 40 or 70 grand on training that gives you at worst no job or 12 grand a year as an FI, flying is rubbish.

And FlightDeckDave, I also fully agree on the 50% thing.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Well I did use my degree. I got a job in a hi-tec electrical manufacturer as a direct result of my university education. If paid enough to finance my CPL and ATPL exams.

My point was that as a Fall Back my now dust encrusted degree is near worthless. Time, technology and the law has moved on. Nobody would employ me now based on the excellent degree I gained over a decade ago. They would be mad to do so.

3 years. £12,000. Nah, as a backup plan its p155 poor.


WWW

[DaSkyIsTheLimit]

Hi dave uk, where did u get the loan from? 22£ isnt that bad, only question.. for how long:eek: