Do the UK Military teach Vortex Ring?

[windowseatplease]

I flew with an ex-AAC Gazelle pilot the other day. He got out of the service last year. He said he had NEVER been demo-d Vortex Ring State at ANY time of his training - said this was AAC Policy.

Does this sound a bit odd? He knew the theory, but had never actually had it taught to him, like on the JAA PPL Syllabus.

Thoughts?

[VTA]

I left the RN in 97' and up to that point, you had to demo insipient (sp) vortex ring state and recovery every year as part of your handling check...But then we were the senior service :):) Let the Pongo bashing commence :ouch:

[[email protected]]

Yup - and we don't make them actually roll the aircraft over to prove that dynamic rollover exists either.

It used to be taught very many moons ago ( I think the last to give it up were the Navy on the Sea King course)

You only need to know how not to get into it, what the incipient stage symptoms are and how to recover from that.

Lots of guys claim to teach fully developed VRS but frankly I don't believe it.

[What Limits]

I concur with that as I had similar experiences to him.

Not odd at all, why do you need a demo of every possible hazardous state?

Would you like to do negative G or see how low you could get the Nr in a Robinson?

It should be enough that part of the thorough briefing includes the statement " THIS WILL KILL YOU - DON'T DO IT"

[Fareastdriver]

The RAF certainly did in 1966. It was during the (one) high altitude demonstration sortie when you wore a parachute. The reason for the parachute was that a Whirlwind (magnesium alloy) would burn out before it reached the ground if it caught fire above 4,000ft. agl.
They stopped doing it on the Sycamore when one clapped it's blade tips.

[101BOY]

We used to look at it in the Merlin sim, which okay may not be a totally accurate demonstration of the real thing, but as has been said why risk the aircraft and your little pink body doing the real thing?

[windowseatplease]

I can understand not teaching FULL VRS, but can't see a problem with showing a student the 'incipient' stages and how to recover. I've done it hundred of times with PPL students and it's no big deal.

[ShyTorque]

I was shown it on the Whirlwind course, many, many moons ago. (Oi Crab, just watch it! ;) ). Climbed to 10,000 feet wearing a "parrotshoot".

It was a brief demo. My instructor suddenly said: "There it is - did you see it?"
"No, I didn't", said I.
"Well, that's it, we're going back to Shawbury now"
" :confused: " thought I.

Don't remember being required to teach it on the Gazelle, though.

[A.Agincourt]

VRS - the theory - was and still is taught however, practical demonstrations of recovery ceased circa 1980. I am unsure of the precise date. I was reliably informed that the reason was simply because the risk of inclusion in the course and the fact that there were few documented occurrences outweighed the consequential aircraft life reduction and potential educational error.

I believe that in later years the same analogy was used to justify a revision in EOL.

Best Wishes

[SASless]

Then there is the rank amateurs among us who have demonstrated VRS (probably more like incipient VRS) quite by accident. (accident meaning inadvertently....)

The FAA requires a demo of VRS as part of the CFI checkride and as a part of the annual part 135 Air Taxi checkride.

The real key is to know what it is, when it can occur, what the warning signs are, and how to recover to normal flight. It would appear to me professional helicopter pilots should be well acquainted with VRS and have experienced at least a mild onset some where in their training.

Longline work is one situation that is likely to put an aircraft at risk for the onset of VRS should the winds be light and variable.

[bondu]

As an ex AAC attached pilot, incipient VRS was demonstrated to me in 1979 during my course at Middle Wallop. As I spent quite a bit of time in the high hover over certain areas of Northern Ireland during my first two year tour, I appreciated the fact I had the knowledge to indentify VRS should I ever get anywhere near it.
It was also demonstrated to me by my Flt QHI in Cyprus in 1981 when flying the Alouette II.
Thankfully, I have never been in the position of having to get out of such a nasty situation!

bondu :ok:

[Skycop]

Here is an ancient thread on the subject:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/rotorheads/116124-vortex-ring-settling-power-merged.html

[Phil77]

The FAA requires a demo of VRS as part of the CFI checkride and as a part of the annual part 135 Air Taxi checkride.


Even for a Private Pilot checkride the FAA requires their definition of VRS: "Settling with Power" to be demonstrated (at least it is part of the PTS):

D. TASK: SETTLING-WITH-POWER
REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-21; POH/RFM.

Objective.
To determine that the applicant:

1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to settling-with-power.
2. Selects an altitude that will allow recovery to be completed no
less than 1,000 feet AGL or, if applicable, the manufacturer’s
recommended altitude, whichever is higher.
3. Promptly recognizes and recovers at the onset of settling-withpower.
4. Utilizes the appropriate recovery procedure.




I know, I know many of you (myself included) think these are to different things (the settling thing and the vortex thing) but the FAA likes to describe it this way - and last time I checked, they where the governing body for the US when it comes to pilots licenses :8

[Ancient Rotorhead]

AAAvnC did not demonstrate or discuss vortex ring state in 1968. CFS Tern Hill did not include it in the QHI Course in 70/71. However I do recall the "high altitude (10,000ft)" sortie, with parachute and the only instructional outcome being 'more left pedal required at altitude.'

As a civilian instructor for the last eighteen years, with around 10.000 instructional hours, I regularly demonstrate vortex ring state - requirements, symptoms, entry and recovery, in a variety of heli including R22, R44, AS350, H500, BK117 ....... Buggered if I can consistently demonstrate it in a B47 or B206 tho'! Dammed if I know why? Been put in it three times (inadvertantly) in these types by folks doing base and line checks. Opened my eyes.....

The subject has been well covered in PPRune in the past. Rates of descent vary on the same machine on different days. However, in my experience, the standard recovery technique works every time!

Surely the instructor should ensure the student understands the requirements to get into it and the symptoms - both incipient and developed. We then need to be shown and practise the standard recovery (and the variations.)The idea being to avoid the "nasty." However, if Bloggs manages to achieve the undesirable, he needs the tools to avoid spoiling his day by a heavy impact with terra firma!

[[email protected]]

Ancient - could you explain exactly what parameters you use for entry and how far you let it go before recovery?

[Ancient Rotorhead]

Always 2000agl for Robbos. 4500agl for BK117. The hard part, in a strong wind, is zero IAS. I don't have the same sucess in 20kts of breeze. The ground speed is noticeably off-putting. Lower collective until we have ROD >500fpm, then wait.

Random pitch, roll and yaw seem to arrive first. ROD goes thru 1800-2000fpm. Reduced cyclic effectiveness and increased vibration. Raise collective and watch Bloggs eyes as the ROD increases further.......Plenty of time for patter. Then recover. Forward (not excessive) cyclic works every time. Next demo try simultaneously lowering collective and note quicker apparent recovery - albeit with a greater altitude loss.

The Robbos always develop around 2000+fpm ROD. However, on quite a few occasions the VSI has done at least one lap of the dial! I have not been able to achieve this high ROD on consecutive demonstrations. Therefore I suspect the 2000fpm ROD may be the incipient stage. The AS350 and the BK give much higher ROD. They also seem to slip in to the state much more quickly/easier.

I am NOT a TP!. The CASA (Oz) syllabus reqires the exercise. I always demonstrate it to my students then let them have a go. QHI training is harder 'cos a lot of candidates can't get the R22, in particular, to enter the vortex ring state. I was introduced to the demo on the Robinson factory course at Torrance.

[[email protected]]

Thanks for the info - you are certainly a braver man than me! Although I have had plenty of students put me into the incipient stages accidentally I have always initiated recovery quickly.

Out of interest I was required to show only the incipient stage on R22 and 206 CAA 1179 check rides - does anyone in UK actually demo complete VRS?

[CarryOnCopter]

I seem to remember an ex AAC pilot telling me that the army decided to make a video of a Scout in VRS.

So two Scout's went to ten thousand feet, one the a/c to do the exercise and the other to film.

Apparently when the first a/c got in to fully developed VRS the other a/c couldn't keep up (or down?) so had to do the same and they both got down rather quickly, I'm sure over six thousand feet rate of descent was mentioned.

Can't tell you if it's true but stopped me going to far with demonstrations.

[Runway101]

Maneuver Guide of a large US based flight school:

Settling with Power (R22 - PPL)

looking for 2000 ft agl
turn into tailwind condition
carburetor heat comes up
clear area
downwind setup / straight and level flight with 40 kt
set collective to 17-18 inches MP
continuously slow it down to 0 airspeed / first set of vibrations is ETL
feeling the descent / second set of vibrations SWP - watch your vsi
initiate recovery
lower collective - right pedal
forward cyclic
recover from nose down attitude with aft cyclic and raise collective
(as soon as you feel the vibrations are gone / clean air entering the rotor system / no lower than 1000 ft AGL)
watch rotor RPM on recovery - MINIMIZE LOSS OF ALTITUDE

Instructor demonstration:

check power available (MP chart)
slow the aircraft down to a OGE hover
lower collective - establish a rate of descent more than 300 ft/min
waiting for the vibrations of settling with power
feeling the vibrations - watch your VSI
initiate recovery
lower collective - right pedal - forward cyclic
recover from nose down attitude with raise collective and aft cyclic
(as soon as you feel toe vibrations are gone / clean air entering the rotor system / no lower than 1000 ft AGL)
watch rotor RPM on recovery

[jayteeto]

I had a practical demonstration by accident over Belfast in the 90's. In the hover at 9000' my co-pilot fell asleep on me whilst handling and I didn't notice. We lost 4000' before recovery...:eek:

[Shawn Coyle]

I was asked to comment on an Army Lynx crash too many years ago. No obvious cause for the crash, and after some sleuthing and drawing of wind directions and flight paths concluded that vortex ring state might be a cause. Looking at the rest of the evidence (witness statements of vibrations, non-responsiveness of controls, total length of damaged aircraft and parts less than 90 feet, etc) it became obvious that vortex ring state was probably the cause.
The fact that the official Army Board of Inquiry never considered it showed me that they probably didn't teach or understand it. Don't know what's happened since then.
(and the reason I was asked to comment was that the widow of the pilot was going to be denied her survivor pension because, in the BOI's view, the pilot was responsible for the machine crashing - since the BOI hadn't considered VRS, and the pilot probably had not been trained to recognize it, how could he be at fault??? - she got the pension)

[Hughes500]

Was certainly taught and shown incipient vortex ring at wallop in basic rotary in 1988 !

[rotorspin]

was shown incipient stages and recovery as part of PPL and CPL, surprised by the number of people that have questioned this on this thread, I believe it is a standard part of the syllabus in most flight schools....shocked if it isn't

tea, coffee, incipient VR state, recovery, tea coffee, all part of a days work?

[topendtorque]

yep,
instructors that teach kids to go out and operate close to the ground in their working life - I think that's nearly everyone - well if they don't teach them how to stay away from the ground - well they want their backsides kicked until their nose bleeds.

Especially where it relates to the "subtle hazards of light winds" which Sasless has remarked upon.

Like i say, if you really stuff it up, and pick up you own dirty air for a bit of freefall VRS, you'll usually only ever go about eighty feet before the pucka factor saves you, but if you start at fifty feet - well it's really only the last thirty that will hurt eh!

if you don't get a reaction from a student on that one I suggest going back for the coffee - again - and another student.

[oldbeefer]

But there again, we brief, but don't demonstrate Retreating Blade stall, Dynamic Rollover, Jackstall, Engine Off Landings with twin engined helis, etc, etc, etc.................Never understood the reason for demoing incipient stage. Most of the instructors I flew with didn't get the parameters right so the demo wasn't convincing. A good brief (and a look at some of the video clips or VR close to the ground) is sufficient (IMHO).

[windowseatplease]

I demonstrate the inital stages of dynamic rollover, ie purposely put the stick off centre before lifting off and point out to the student that one skid lifts up, and they should reduce lever and try again.

Frank said at the factory course (or in the safety the video, can't remember which) that it is not possible to get the R22 into retreating blade stall.

I still think it's important to demo initial VRS and how to get out of it as it's a lot easier/more common than jack stall/twin engine failure/retreating blade stall.

A pilot can easily fall into VRS, eg when taking friends/photographer for a ride, 'oh look there's my house, can you slow down? just a bit more, that's it, great, hover here, eh? what's happening, sh*t!' etc etc.

[serf]

I'm with Olsbeefer on the VRS - We've also seen pictures of a fair few robbo's on their sides over the last few years, maybe too many demos of (incipient)dynamic rollover gone wrong!

[diginagain]

Was certainly taught and shown incipient vortex ring at wallop in basic rotary in 1988 !

Ditto. (Even down to the same year). That was a couple of years after having got into it for real during a general handling trip as an Aircrewman.:eek:

[Scissorlink]

If you spend hours training for the remote possibility of engine failure then you should at least be shown the High possibility Vortex ring..both will kill you in an instant


SL

[toppingcheque]

As an ex-Wasp pilot I can well imagine the VRS Scout disappearing out of camera shot very quickly. It was demonstrated to us in type training & required as a part of annual competency, purely because the aircraft lost so much altitude sooooo quickly.

Even so, the first time I saw it for real (B206L1 on a Pacific Is at sea level & sufficiently below mauw) it was all over in the blink of an eye, the ground rose extremely quickly & the bang at the bottom was hard. I flew it away several days later after the engineers had had their tuppence worth.

As a result, I've included the exercise in every type rating & for every PPL/CPL, R22, B206, H300/500, AS350, UH1/204/205/212/222, AH1 Scout etc - as a part of FTH, topping check, RBS, high altitude handling etc. Don't know that I'd like to do it at some of the low altitudes mentioned here though - once bitten, twice shy.

[Gulf Flyer]

I had a practical demonstration by accident over Belfast in the 90's. In the hover at 9000' my co-pilot fell asleep on me whilst handling and I didn't notice. We lost 4000' before recovery...:eek:

Could not have been a very pleasant experience for the guys down the back?

GF

[topendtorque]

Don't know that I'd like to do it at some of the low altitudes mentioned here though -


true too
I don't practic them at low altitudes, and all my work, demo's, training for similarly tasked people etc. is in small machines that one has to cajole around at low level, for various reasons.

I do show and insist on hands on with moving into and out of one's own downwash in the downwind direction - at ten feet or so skid height, to pick up and demonstrate the incipient shudders, so to speak.

Having power is reserve is essential and demonstrating the flicking out of the incipient stage is easier at that height I've found.

All the real (drop like a stone) demos are done at plus 2000 feet from every which way, and a watchful eye by the student must initially be kept on not only the VSI, but also the altimeter. Amazing how it can flick 80 to 120 feet downwards and then stabilize. Hence the saying, don't do this below 80 feet, or ever.

I have no problem believing that the downward velocity of a much heavier machine in VRS would take much more airspace to arrest than a mere eighty feet.

May I say in relation to the below quote;

If you spend hours training for the remote possibility of engine failure


That, there is no argument that engine failures are a diminshing aspect of modern engineering.

I don't actually go for EOL's because one day it might fail, even though it is a large part of the verbal side traffic.

The main reason is because it IS a lesson in finality which couples absolute self disciplne. Therefore I reckon it demonsatrates the basic aspect of - think before you leap - and do so in a calculated fashion.

[SARREMF]

We were certainly taught it on the Sea King OCU when I went through as a student. We were not taught it at Shawbury. When I returned some years later on the Sea King OCU we taught it as part of the height climb sortie [10,000ft] but again only to the incipient stage. I think the early sorties teaching it were very much along the lines of " Did you see it? No! Right lets go home?" I am pretty sure it was taken out of the syllabus not too long after though?

like Crabb, I have only encountered it [for real] when others have put me into to it inadvertently. What I did find was that sat in the co-pilot seat because you had expereinced it you could see it building and warn people. The most famous last words were " no chance, not in this old bus ....... oooooh!" - You know who you are! Falklands, 2000ft over the airfield! - and how low did we go!

[I am sure we introdcued CRM training just after this!!!]

[Burr Styers]

I have practical experience of this. During the latter part of the 80s I was on task over Belfast,with some of the you know whos, doing you know what.Arriving back in the the high hover (after a racing refuel at Palace bks)and over the less salubrious parts of west Belfast, it all went a bit "Pete Tong". High auw 1800kgs (or thereabouts) in a Gazelle, low airspeed, high power setting, light winds aloft (10kts or so). Suddenly it didn't feel right, and concurrent with that thought, the VSI went almost instantaneously beyond the vertical - downwards !.

Oh Bum. Did two things pretty much simultaneously, cyclic forward, and dumped the collective. The aircraft pitched over slooooowly, and airspeed began to build - slooowly. However West Belfast grew very quickly in the windscreen, interesting details like nails in roof slates, worn tyres on cars, man scratching bum etc.

Chappie in LHS asked me what I was doing (not an unreasonable question) as he was fully expecting to be eyeballing "Bill Baddie", and not the rapidly approaching road features, and general lack of hospitality that the local residents had against her majestys government - at that time.

Bottom line. Fell about a thousand feet, recovered, staggered back up to task, genuine white knuckles.

Post task, had a cup of tea - and got a bit introspective.
Root cause - Rushed approach to task.
What saved me. Demo of said condition in basic rotary (1983 at MW), and stall practice in "Chippies"

Not big, not clever.

Stay safe

[breakscrew]

The AAC used to teach it on the basic course at Middle Wallop, and then reinforce the lessons for those boys in NI who sat at night in the hover over Belfast. However, the RAF controlled Defence Helicopter Flying School started in 1997 using the old 2FTS syllabus, and the lesson was not replicated. Anyway, it is probably an impossible state to get into with a light weight Squirrel.

[oldbeefer]

However, the RAF controlled Defence Helicopter Flying School started in 1997 using the old 2FTS syllabus, and the lesson was not replicated. Anyway, it is probably an impossible state to get into with a light weight Squirrel.

1. DHFS is NOT and never has been 'RAF controlled'.

2. I wouldn't bank on it and the Squirrels aren't always 'light weight'!

[whoateallthepies]

Burr
Good account and I had a similar experience flying night EMS in Sussex.

BO105, hover at night to recce landing site on FLIR , then commence usual steep approach down the Nightsun beam. Started 1500 feet. Eyes out of the cockpit too long looking at the site. Slack wind and realised that with a high collective setting we were starting to descend rapidly. The usual Bolkow hover vibes were more than normal and glanced inside to see the VSI not looking healthy. Same recovery procedure; dumped the lever and nosed forward. recovered below 500 feet and flew away to re-position. A few seconds more and it would have been a different story.

We were shown incipient VR on Whirlwinds in 1977 at Shawbury. Up to 10,000 feet, quick demo. As others have said "There it was, did you feel it?!". Followed by an autorotation back to the airfield from the overhead. Everyone undershot for some reason despite the easy starting height!

I don't believe I gained much from the demo but a good briefing and having the frighteners put on you by an instructor has to be good value http://i.1asphost.com/whoateallthepies/pie.jpg

[Shawn Coyle]

Any helicopter can get into vortex ring state when the induced velocity from the rotor equals the rate of descent (or air coming up into the rotor)
A low power setting and the start of a descent can give the symptoms at very low airspeed in no wind or tailwind. An aggressive quickstop with a power pull at the end as the airspeed comes to zero can give the symptoms.
Not just in a hover and vertical descent at high rates of descent.

[topendtorque]

If you spend hours training for the remote possibility of engine failure then you should at least be shown the High possibility Vortex ring..both will kill you in an instant

This is an excellent precis, could you add to that - OVERPITCHING.

VRS had been a bit of topic in several threads over the pas couple of years, and there have been plenty of doubting Thomas's.

But here, and the reason why is summed up by Shawn Coyle, there is an obvious and very strong cadre of very converted people, especially instructors.

Great. I wish the rest would join, it is such a simple excercise and extremely cheap insurance.

All it would need is for a common sense approach to a universal curriculum for ab-initio training.

On a more sober note perhaps an interpretation of agenda item (article) 12 of the Chicago convention could enforce the safety aspect of such training???
just a thought, bit deep maybe? The safety objectives of Article 44, could also be looked at.
cheers tet

[Burr Styers]

"Pies"
The entry into these conditions can be subtle, almost innocuous, but the rate of departure from the flight envolope (almost) is startlingly quick. I would guess that we were both comfortable and well practised in what we were doing on our respective days. And I am sure we are very grateful for the talents of those older and wiser who taught us early in our careers.

BS