Halleluejah! CDS "Armed Forces 'stretched beyond their capabilities"

[insty66]

Some one very important has said it. Britain's Armed Forces 'stretched beyond their capabilities' by fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/frontline/2189180/Britain%27s-Armed-Forces-%27stretched-beyond-their-capabilities%27-by-fighting-in-Iraq-and-Afghanistan.html)

He's not retiring by any chance is he?

[stickmonkeytamer]

About time too! Will anything come of him saying it? Answers on a postcard please...

SMT

[Big Cat Handler]

"Everybody" may have been saying it, but this it the first time that CDS has - particularly with the wording that we are already beyond our capabilites, rather than just close to them - a change from, "we couldn't manage any more," to, "we can't sustain what we're doing already."

[AdanaKebab]

About time too....

... but I can't help feeling it's more of a political statement to force more of a contribution from other nations in NATO.

If you're genuine Sir Jock .. then we're all behind you 100%.

[ORAC]

Britain's Armed Forces 'stretched beyond their capabilities' by fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/frontline/2189180/Britain%27s-Armed-Forces-%27stretched-beyond-their-capabilities%27-by-fighting-in-Iraq-and-Afghanistan.html) :D:D

[Roland Pulfrew]

Bl00dy Hell :eek:

As a committed pessimist one might say "its been a long time in coming"!! Does this mean that the VSOs can see what else is coming though? :uhoh:

[Mick Smith]

what's news about that? Everybody has been saying it for years.

No until now it has always been "we're stretched but not overstretched".

[nigegilb]

More trouble for Gordon Brown, something has to change now.

CDS is extremely eloquent he now needs to stick to his guns.


General Dannatt, support required!

[whowhenwhy]

Well done Sir, thankyou! :ok: Now we can only hope that the politicians listen. If it's true that they've asked him to stay on for another year, they can't very well sack him now?????

[VinRouge]

Hmm, I wonder if those B@stards in the treasury were trying to cut some more to fund a few pregnant teenagers or pay for some more lowlifes to lead a pleasant existence in HM prison? I reckon the deficit with the knock on from stamp duty revenues/10p tax thingy and Northern rock will probably be stretching their 40% GDP promise, Defence seems such a perfect place for those socialists to fund their version of animal farm...

Well done for standing up to be counted though Sir. :D

[zedder]

Perhaps there have been mutterings in Cabinet about us "doing something" with regard Zimbabwe. Hopefully this is CDS's way of telling the Podgie Jock One that he's got to be 'bloody joking'.

[cheesedoff]

Lets face it, he's just one of many spineless officers. Just like to add that not all officers are spineless!

[dallas]

Lets face it, he's just one of many spineless officers. Just like to add that not all officers are spineless!
To be fair, I'm not sure if he's necessarily told about the nuts and bolts of our problems - I'm sure we can all recall awkward crossed-arms theatre visits from senior blokes, where few flight commander types actually tell the visitor the bad stuff, as opposed to the usual blah about 'everyones making the most of it Sir and our percentages...blah, blah'. If senior bloke walked in and asked 'what are your issues' - which I have heard Torpy has done on occasion - they might be more inclined to open their gobs earlier about stretch. But Torpy tactics don't make for comfortable smiley visits.

And anyway, even if they did spend...oooh an instant £5bn on defence tomorrow, is that going to stop the exodus that, from what I hear, is increasing in momentum by the day, as more people realise that if they stay they're the ones picking up the non-existent slack?

This isn't news gents, it's chickens coming home to roost, having been on the horizon for the past 2-3 years.

[flipster]

Well done Sir for sticking your neck out. Let's hope you don't get your head shot orf!

However, it is sad that this situtaion has been utterly predictable for so long.
Shame on those who could have said something much, much earlier but did not.

Dallas is right in that it is those that are left pick up the pieces - my main regret about leaving - an analogy of rats and sinking springs to mind!

However, like many other 'rats', we figured out that staying aboard the MoD Titanic was not a clever option. I hope 'Captain' Stirrup can avoid the iceberg - or perhaps its too late and the best he can hope for is for a successful lifeboat launch?

flipster (with honorary degree in "We Told You So")

[Gainesy]

Extract from today's Telegraph report on the Para killed yesterday. My Bold.

News of the fatality came hours after Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup, the Chief of the Defence Staff, admitted the Armed Forces were "stretched beyond the capabilities we have" and could not go on fighting two wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Sir Jock's comments were supported by Nick Harvey, the Lib Dem defence spokesman, and Patrick Mercer, a Tory MP and former Army commander.

A Ministry of Defence spokesman said: "It is true the Armed Forces are working very hard and we recognise that this cannot go on for ever. The British Armed Forces are very stretched, but not yet overstretched. We continue to invest in our personnel, equipment, training and logistical support."

WTF!?
:mad:

[nigegilb]

These MoD spokesmen get younger and younger. Last one I met wore cheap shoes, shiny trousers and a brown tie.

Enough said?

[KeepItTidy]

Since then, he CDS has faced criticism from some serving service personnel for not being more openly critical of Government defence policy, and some officers have compared him unfavourably with Sir Richard Dannatt, the Chief of the General Staff, who has said the ongoing operations could "break" the Army.
Earlier this month it was confirmed that Sir Richard will not be promoted to replace Sir Jock as CDS and the air chief marshal will be asked to stay on in post for another year.

Thats a great message to send out. If you openly speak the truth and the Government dont like it then say good bye to getting promoted like Sir Dannat has done. I think that sux but good on Sir Jock for having balls and telling what needs to be said. Its about time, I guess Sir Jock dont give a **** im sure hes fed up doing this now and is banging his head against a wall, he can say what he wants and retire anytime.

[blogger]

So it's been said. So stop your moaning and get back to work, that's the normal reason for a statement like that.

Or will anything happen to sort the mess out?

Eleven British service personnel have been killed in Afghanistan since 8 June, seven of them from the Parachute Regiment.

Sounds like things are going to get a lot worse before anything gets better. Afgan tours for the next 10 - 20 or even 30 years to come.

[CirrusF]

These MoD spokesmen get younger and younger. Last one I met wore cheap shoes, shiny trousers and a brown tie.

Enough said?


Yes, you've said enough. Civilians in the MOD get paid less than service people rank for rank - and have to buy their clothing with their own money. Show your civilian colleagues some respect you twit - they are working to the same budget shortages as military.

[round&round]

I think Sir Jock is simply preparing the battlefield for Gordon. Last week, Bush was in town urging Gordon to stay in Iraq. Britain can't afford to, but doesn't want to lose too much political face. Therefore, the political excuse is to get your CDS to speak out thus giving you the opportunity to blame someone else whilst making a "hard, regrettable but necessary decision". If you think Sir Jock is speaking out for servicemen, think again, he would have done long ago if that was his bag. "Jump, yes sir, how high, another year as top dog, oohhh thank you sir".....etc etc

[Ali Barber]

Never mind the dress standards of civil servants, why is the MOD spokesman contradicting the CDS?

[Jumping_Jack]

....because they always do! MOD is Government, CDS is Armed Forces.....

[Roland Pulfrew]

and have to buy their clothing with their own money.

Cirrus, you k:mad:b, so do the military personnel working in MOD!!

I hope CDS sacks the "MOD Spokesman" for contradicting him.:D

[Lurking123]

Dear Cirrus, be a nice chap and pop over to Innsworth (or wherever clothing stores is nowadays), get some nice free clothes (unfortunately only one colour available) then jump on a plane to the sandpit. Then you can moan about civil servants getting paid less than their uniformed colleagues.
Unfortunately, the MOD civil servant probably does work for Swiss Des and will never get sacked. When was the last time any civil servant was sacked?

[Wader2]

Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup, the Chief of the Defence Staff, admitted the Armed Forces were "stretched beyond the capabilities we have" and could not go on fighting two wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.


A Ministry of Defence spokesman said: "The British Armed Forces are very stretched, but not yet overstretched. We continue to invest in our personnel, equipment, training and logistical support."

This reminds me of a record in the late 50s "What the captain really means to say." and others of that ilk;

http://www.pprune.org/forums/military-aircrew/206962-what-captain-really-means-classic.html

[Postman Plod]

Funny how this hasn't made any impression on the state funded media website, and the only reference I can find is an opinion piece which seems to suggest that the CDS really didn't mean what he said....

BBC NEWS | UK | Defence chief's warning on forces (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7473443.stm)

[CirrusF]

Cirrus, you k:mad:b, so do the military personnel working in MOD!


Yes, I know military pay for own clothing while working in MOD - and I have seen the results. My point remains, that the OP belittling an MOD spokesman because of his clothing was pathetic and immature.

[CirrusF]

Dear Cirrus, be a nice chap and pop over to Innsworth (or wherever clothing stores is nowadays), get some nice free clothes (unfortunately only one colour available) then jump on a plane to the sandpit. Then you can moan about civil servants getting paid less than their uniformed colleagues.

I'm not moaning about anything - just pointing out a fact. Military have stretched budgets, just like the rest of civil service. Slagging off some MOD spokesman because he doesn't get paid enough to buy decent clothing is not going to win the military any extra budget allocation. Have some respect for the people who support you - or they will not support you.


Unfortunately, the MOD civil servant probably does work for Swiss Des and will never get sacked. When was the last time any civil servant was sacked?

Err, about as often as military get sacked.

[minigundiplomat]

I'm a former squaddy grunt who after leaving the UK Army ten years or so ago has subsequently qualified as ATPL, and am now in early 40s.



So just how much of this overstretch are you experiencing?

Yep, thought so. How about a nice big cup of shut the hell up?

[CirrusF]

Hello again Littlewillydiplomat:

As you point out - I am not feeling any stretch at all at the moment (much as you could do with a stretch lol!) but I would rejoin in a flash if they lifted age requirements.

[minigundiplomat]

Ha, how can I compete with your razor wit?

However stretched we may be, we are not stretched enough to require the services of an armchair Napoleon, keen to dismiss any complaints of overstretch whilst not in a position to offer informed comment.

In fact, you're not CAS are you?

[Jimlad1]

Just a minor point but the MOD press team are overwhelmingly military staff. Pay a visit to DGMC and you'll see acres of SO2s and SO1s and very few Civil Servants. If you don't like the lines used, then you need to accept that there is a very strong liklihood that a military person came up with it.

As for MOD being Govt - total b*ll****. The MOD is everyone in the building and beyond - strange how you're all so quick to blame the CS for everything that goes wrong, yet as soon as the usual myths about who actually works in MB are quashed, people go quiet...

[cornish-stormrider]

MGD - ROTFLMFAO.

I am deducing from your posts and past comments along with your title and I would hazard a guess you are a ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ censored (but I shall ask in a pm with my credentials)

I would surmise if you do what I think you do that you have a far greater idea about overstretch than an "armchair napoleon"

If the men with egg on hat knew all the gripes and shorts they would have kittens.........

tell the troops sausage side about not being overstretched.....

as to the detractors sat on shiny arse, they are all a bunch of remf's

[noregrets]

While MGD and cirrusfrance trade blows with handbags, the Torygraph has come up with an interesting think-piece:

Armed Forces: Why the top brass broke ranks - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/06/26/do2601.xml)

Equally interesting is the venom apparent in the comments from readers - some appear to blame the current shower in Government, others look back to Options for Change, whereas a few blame the senior officers in the military! There does seem to be a consensus, however, that a military coup would not find itself short of public support...

But then this is the Torygraph. :}

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Armchair Napoleon is quite a fitting descriptor really :D

The cloudy frog tells us that

"As you point out - I am not feeling any stretch at all at the moment (much as you could do with a stretch lol!) but I would rejoin in a flash if they lifted age requirements."

Click on the link below, scroll down the page and check out the CV of a true hero, SAC Gary "Tommo" Thompson who, at a ripe old age paid the ultimate sacrifice, god rest his soul.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/military-aircrew/322602-raf-regiment-cas.html

Armchair Napolean.............................seems about right :ugh:

[Wader2]

As for MOD being Govt - total b*ll****. The MOD is everyone in the building and beyond - strange how you're all so quick to blame the CS for everything that goes wrong, yet as soon as the usual myths about who actually works in MB are quashed, people go quiet...

Whilst this may be true it is not the public perception nor even the semi-professional assessment here on pprune.

The perception reality is that armed forces = good - MOD (Centre) = bad

By extension armed forces equates to uniforms and therefore Centre equates to civil servants.

This means that anyone in the Centre, not in a uniform, is a civil servant.

As for civil servants being Government, this of course is wrong as the whole civil service system serves the Government in power and is not, ipso facto, the Government.

[Jimlad1]

"By extension armed forces equates to uniforms and therefore Centre equates to civil servants.

This means that anyone in the Centre, not in a uniform, is a civil servant."

Fair point - and a bloody good reason why staff in the centre should wear uniform, so people realise just how dominated MB is by military personnel. I was amazed at the RAF 90th b'day just how many RAF personnel worked in MB.

[Wader2]

Exactly Jimlad

[dallas]

It is a socially and morally bankrupt country.
The problem is it will take some something disastrous in military terms to force a true realisation of how bad things are. And looking at the age of some of our passenger jets, it might not be the enemy who cause it...depending on who you define as 'the enemy'.

[minigundiplomat]

looking at the age of some of our passenger jets, it might not be the enemy who cause it...depending on who you define as 'the enemy'.


Lets hope not. Tragic way to prove a point.

[Blacksheep]

Civilians in the MOD get paid less than service people rank for rank ...but they don't spend much of their working day covered in sand, getting shot at either. :rolleyes:

Its not we voters who send the armed forces out to fight without proper equipment and resources. Its the government that does that, and the MOD are the civil service department that is supposed to advise the Minister and manage the budget. As long as the ministry, as represented by their spokesmen, continue to subscribe to the lie that everything is fine, the armed forces will suffer shortages.

[pr00ne]

Chutley,

“It is a socially and morally bankrupt country”

Oh please! Take your head out of the Daily Mail and have a look around you at what is happening in the real world………………..

The many young men and women who are volunteering, serving, fighting and sacrificing life and limb in Afghanistan and Iraq ARE of this country!

The people lining the streets in Wooton Bassett when the coffins of those who have paid the ultimate price return ARE of this country.

The people who turn out to line the streets up and down the country to thank and applaud returning units ARE of this country.

The people who joined in events across the country but especially in London and Blackpool to celebrate Veterans Day today ARE of this country.

The ordinary people who were honoured and recognized for their gallantry and bravery in London on 7/7 ARE of this country.

The many MANY volunteer organizations across the land from St. Johns Ambulance to the RNLI who sacrifice their time in service of others for no monetary reward are staffed by people who ARE of this country.

A socially and morally bankrupt country? Jeezzzzzzzzzzz……………………..

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Dear Proone

UK has a populous of roughly 60 million so bearing in mind your rather daft and not unexpected left wing rant of...............

"The many young men and women who are volunteering, serving, fighting and sacrificing life and limb in Afghanistan and Iraq ARE of this country!

The people lining the streets in Wooton Bassett when the coffins of those who have paid the ultimate price return ARE of this country.

The people who turn out to line the streets up and down the country to thank and applaud returning units ARE of this country.

The people who joined in events across the country but especially in London and Blackpool to celebrate Veterans Day today ARE of this country.

The ordinary people who were honoured and recognized for their gallantry and bravery in London on 7/7 ARE of this country.

The many MANY volunteer organizations across the land from St. Johns Ambulance to the RNLI who sacrifice their time in service of others for no monetary reward are staffed by people who ARE of this country."

Would you like to give us a rough idea of the numbers involved in all of the above?

And then in the context of the thread and the post you so lamely try to belittle marry up spending on "the good guys, not just military" and the rest of society................................................:=

[FFP]

The many MANY volunteer organizations across the land from St. Johns Ambulance to the RNLI who sacrifice their time in service of others for no monetary reward are staffed by people who ARE of this country.

St Johns is an easy one to explain. Free entry to football matches and concerts innit ? (:E)

My experience is that individually the people of the UK care about the forces, but as a nation, we do pretty bad. I've seen how the US do it, and that's more like the way things should be IMHO.

I have heard from friends that deployed with the US that in their rooms they have Starbucks coffee, with messages written on them (and so presumably bought) by individuals throughout the US. And not a week goes by without mutiple care packages arriving from schools, clubs, and organisations in the US.

On the subject of being stretched ? I will now add my name to the officer's publicly declaring their feelings on the current state of affairs ;)

[Pontius Navigator]

Without jumping to Pprone's defence, may I comment?

The Air Training Corps has more members than the RAF. This is not because people don't wish to join or remain in the RAF but because the Government cut the numbers of trained personnel.

St John's Ambulance has a youth arm. In Guernsey it was a uniformed organisation, with military rank badges, that remained extant throughout the occupation. Each year at the annual commemoration in October the SJA contingent probably out numbers the cadet forces who, in turn, out number the RN contingent. The SJA, like cubs etc, has tinies in its organisation.

On Saturday we were entertained by a 50 strong teenage youth and gospel choir. They gave up their Saturday evening to entertain us and many other hours to practise. Their recital was without any music sheets.

The good youth are there. There are many good in the country. Indeed the Daily Mail and nationals do focus on the exception rather than the good.

I just saw that a national event organisation has said how it is raising I think about £15k for veterans' charities. We raised half that in one night at a local event.

Centrally however we see a Government intent on telling us how to spend our own money. Free bus passes aren't. Free swimming isn't. Free prescriptions aren't. Free bin collections aren't yet they plan to charge us extra up front. Vehicle Excise duty is a self-licking lollipop; it doesn't pay for roads. It is the Centre of which we despair.

[Roland Pulfrew]

Good to see prOOne back spouting ZA-NU Liarbour propaganda again. I have missed his left wing rants. :E

[Green Flash]

Jet Blast, Jet Blast - Go!

Or maybe there is need of a Mil Jet Blast? - Reheat, anyone?

[VinRouge]

Proone, take it you will be bailing out the labour government of their estimated 24 million debt will you?

How about the country, which faces its worst financial crisis since 1929, not due to "international events" as von brown would have us believe, but becuase Noo Labour P*ssed it up the wall on a massively cash hungry yet little improved NHS, or on ensuring the lower types of our society could breed like rabbits? (In my mind socialist policies = reverse evolution).

Take it you think the record numbers of fleeing middle class educated types that are heading off to oceana/America/Canada/Europe is a perfectly normal thing do you?

Mark my words, your beloved party will be unelected for 50 years when the full scale of the mess they have created is revealed. I hope You can flip burgers. I have a funny feeling that Lawyers are going to be struggling for jobs in the near future.

[pr00ne]

Er, I never mentioned a political party, just commented on what I believe to be the qualities of the people of this country...................................

VinRouge,

What! "worst financial crisis since 1929"? What total nonsense! The country is facing the most severe slowing of the economy since 1990, remind me again who was in power then?

Fleeing Middle class educated types? Tells me all I need to know about you and your prejudices. Fleeing to where? It might be nice and hot in other places but they have exactly the same issues we do, some far FAR worse.

As for flipping burgers, I'm a Barrister, there is NO shortage of work, believe me!

[insty66]

Er, I never mentioned a political party

I think he was going on past form:hmm:

So the CDS has spoken about overstretch, we listened the media might have done but couldn't really give a rats ar$e.

But still there is a Veterans day now.

If it wasn't for the people of Wooton Basset, you might think that the public are totally apathetic as to their armed forces.

[Runaway Gun]

If more of the British Public were more like the fine respectful people of Wooton Basset, that lined the main street this afternoon to honour the latest casualties, then the UK would be a better place.