Pilots Target Scottish Homes

[Desk Flyer]

PILOTS ADMIT THEY HAVE US IN THEIR SIGHTS

IN FIRING LINE: The MoD admits pilots use Scots homes as targets during
practice Monday June 23,2008 By David Scott

FIGHTER pilots use civilian cars and homes as practice targets while on
low-level training missions across rural Scotland, the Ministry of Defence
has admitted. The pilots routinely buzz cars, rowing boats and farmers
working in fields to prepare crews for attacking real targets in Iran or
Afghanistan.
Rural communities have been outraged by the low flying. Two vast areas – one in the north of the country and one in the south – have been designated
Tactical Training Areas where jets can fly as low as 100ft.
In the past five years, nearly 56,000 hours of low-flying have taken place, mainly in the north, the Borders and Dumfries and Galloway.
Now the SNP has demanded the MoD review its policy. Rob Gibson, Nationalist MSP for the Highlands and Islands, said: “Targeting people in their homes and cars is unacceptable. The MoD is a blight on our economic lives and on our everyday lives.”
He was speaking after he received a reply from Derek Twigg MP,
Under-Secretary of State for Defence, in response to a constituent’s
complaint.
Mr Twigg wrote: “Air-crew are required as part of their training to select
practice targets. “This may include vehicles (in simulation of military vehicles) as well as buildings.”
An MoD spokesman said: “Low flying is rigorously controlled and monitored.
Since 1988 the total number of sorties has been reduced by a third, and
those by jets by more than half.”


This is apparently news to the scots today.
The MOD spokesperson is struggling to defend routine training in this sensationalist story. It just makes me wonder what sort of training should be allowed and where it should take place in the eyes of these complainers.

DF

[jimgriff]

I live in a LFA(T) and you are more than welcome to target my house if you like!:ok:

52.38126* N
003.94805*W

[Pure Pursuit]

If anyone has the coords for Rob Gibson's home then feel free to post them...

:ugh:

Mr Gibson,

the ladies and gentlemen you lay barrage to in your statement regularly expose themselves to great danger in a very austere and hostile environment. I speak from experience, being in theatre at the moment.

Perhaps a visit to Afghanistan would allow you to enjoy a more realistic perspective as to the needs for practicing low flying & single pass, accurate bombing runs. It seems to be playing a big part in keeping people alive out here & I'm sure the families of the Scottish regiments in theatre would welcome any training that improves the safety of their loved ones serving on the ground out here.

I am sickened by your attack on the armed forces on the very day that Cpl Sarah Bryant, Cpl Sean Robert Reeve, L/Cpl Richard Larkin and L/Cpl Paul Scott were repatriated to the UK.

[AndyPeacock]

The pilots routinely buzz cars, rowing boats and farmers
working in fields to prepare crews for attacking real targets in Iran or
Afghanistan. :eek:

I hope that is a spelling mistake....

[airborne_artist]

How much is the RAF in Moray and Fife worth to the local economies? How many civvies are employed, and what about the council tax paid by those who buy homes in the local area?

[MG]

Quiet agree, A-A. They'd soon notice us if we left.

Isn't it sad that we constantly have to fight the enemy within? :sad:

[noregrets]

'The MoD is a blight on our economic lives'

How many military establishments are there in the Highlands and Islands, and how much do they contribute to the region's economy - directly, in the form of employment, and indirectly, in the form of consumer spending?

Or would the Honourable MSP rather see the MOD close all its units in the area, so that he can get back to smearing woad on his face and living in a hovel?

Silly sod.

[Davetron]

How about they plan the training for the armed forces and we send them out to a theater of conflict and we see how they cope. Idiots.:ugh:

[Beatriz Fontana]

Is it a quiet news day or something? I've read some rot in my time but that really takes the proverbial.

Hardly worth commenting on.

[Wader2]

And this is new?

My aunt used to complain (just to me) about the RF4Cs attacking an airfield in the borders.

As far as I know only one person complained about a pair of English Jags doing battle turns over Nairn for 10 minutes.

Or the V-force on fixed track low level routes round the UK and Highlands.

Or the chap who moved to Tain and then complained about the bombing range next door - what is the Scots for plonker?

Or with F15Es dropping 500lbs bombs on Holme on Spalding Moor - they should worry.

[Dan D'air]

you are more than welcome to target my house if you like!

Me too!! Am bored with only seeing Wokkas now..............sorry essexbird!!

[Tricorn]

Pull up a sandbag.................

Back in 74 I lived in a caravan not far from a large F4 flying base in Lincolnshire. The caravan had a white roof and stood out clearly from the surrounding land.

I knew it was being used as a target, but when the aircrew discovered (after much banter from me) that a 'blue suit' lived there, the attacks increased at least 10 fold!!

I didn't mind - at least I didn't need an alarm clock!!

................stop the lights swinging now.

[Essexbird]

Dan D'air - I'll forgive the dig this time, only because I'm a happy bunny today, having seen - yes, you've guessed it - a Wokka fly overhead this morning :D. I appreciate anything flying low overhead, not just wokka's, but alas that's all I ever seem to get! So my message to any of you fighter pilots is 'sod the bloody Scots, come and do your target practice on Southend pier instead !'

[jimgriff]

I was serious about my place. I get loads of low fly by's here and even arty shots of herks and wokka's against the sunset as they trundle by. By eck, we even had a Merlin in the valley the other eve. BTW-The green paint on them is brill as they blend into the background v well.

Keep up the good work guys and gals, we here in Viet Taff appreciate your endevours even if they don't in Jockistan:ok:

[HighTow]

When I were a nipper in Glozzershire our house used to get targetted by A-10's of all things. I'm not sure where the heck they were stationed (Heyford maybe?) but every school Summer holiday they'd turn up.

Our house was painted white, on the lee side of a small valley and backdropped by trees so I guess form a pilots perspective it made an idea practice target. I always used to wonder why my Mum started hoovering so early in the morning until I learnt to recognise the sound from a Warthog's engines :D

[Shack37]

Quote:
The pilots routinely buzz cars, rowing boats and farmers
working in fields to prepare crews for attacking real targets in Iran or
Afghanistan.
:eek:

I hope that is a spelling mistake....

I doubt it, probably doesn't know the difference.:sad:

[ORAC]

'The MoD is a blight on our economic lives' Carrier delay 'could cost jobs' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/glasgow_and_west/7468073.stm)

The delay in signing a contract for two new aircraft carriers could endanger jobs at Scottish shipyards, according to a cross-party group of MPs. In its report on the defence industry, the Scottish Affairs Committee also said any gap in workload could damage the UK's ship-building skills base.

There have been delays over the past two years in finalising the £4bn deal for the vessels. They would be partly built on the Clyde and fully assembled at Rosyth.

In its report, the committee urged the Ministry of Defence (MoD) to review how it communicates the progress of defence programmes. It said this was necessary to "limit uncertainty and worry about possible delays, and to avoid 'scare-mongering' which has been destabilising to the workforce and wider community".

The report also identified a number of "challenges" ahead for the industry. It said possible constitutional change, limited success to date in the export market, and competition from English yards were all threats to future work.

Committee chairman, Mohammad Sarwar MP, said: "It is not an exaggeration to say that the defence industry in Scotland is vital. We heard during evidence sessions that defence and aerospace industries and the MoD support almost 50,000 jobs in Scotland."

"To secure the future of the industry, and to ensure that it remains a world class base for manufacturing and engineering, we call on the MoD, the Scottish Government, Scottish Enterprise, Skills Development Scotland, the Scotland Office, and the industry itself to forge a coherent and effective working relationship."...........

[airborne_artist]

Compare and contrast:

Mohammad Sarwar MP "It is not an exaggeration to say that the defence industry in Scotland is vital. We heard during evidence sessions that defence and aerospace industries and the MoD support almost 50,000 jobs in Scotland."

with

Rob Gibson, Nationalist MSP for the Highlands and Islands, said: “......The MoD is a blight on our economic lives and on our everyday lives.”

I think I know which one is right :ok:

[Rob Courtney]

Hightow

If I remember rightly the A10 hogs were from Bentwaters, we had some fun with them up on the ranges of Otterburn back in the eighties.

Rob

[aviate1138]

GU10 1PX Any time..........

[glad rag]

Rob Gibson, Nationalist MSP for the Highlands and Islands, said: Bla... MoD is a blight on our economic lives and on our everyday lives.”

I believe the hounourable gentleman may need to undertake further research on this subject!


Talk about a loose cannon (pun fully intentional):}

[Dan Gerous]

Used to drive a white 7-1/2 tonner in a previous life, and was "attacked" on numerous occasions, on the high moor just south of Otterburn. I felt used, cheapened, abused and voilated by the airforce, because I had to pay attention to the road, and not enjoy watching these guys "straffe" me. Would have loved to have seen the cockpit video from my last encounter with a Jag. Had a few others in other locations in S. Scotland as well. If those greetin faced gits up North don't want you there, why not spend a bit more time in TTA 20 :ok:

[Airborne Aircrew]

The delay in signing a contract for two new aircraft carriers could endanger jobs at Scottish shipyards

See, the problem with your post ORAC is that the carriers aren't built yet... so there's nothing to complain about... But, by 'eck there's going to be some bitching when they both start flying low over Porridge-Wog-Land and targeting rowing boats... :}

[Focks 2]

If anyone has the coords for Rob Gibson's home then feel free to post them...

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/msp/membersPages/rob_gibson/interestsActivities.htm

Conveniently situated for some.

[John R81]

Very happy for you to target my place (though I think that you already do as it's just inside R610A/5 per NATS AIC 17/2008).

57 04 37.3 N
04 57 25.9 W

Or for those without a map

http://www.multimap.com/maps/?hloc=GB|ph35%204hr#map=57.07705,-4.95401|18|32&loc=GB:57.07673:-4.96385:16|ph35%204hr|PH35%204HR

Very happy for you to tell brass / politicians / busybodys that you have my permission, and happy to put it in writing if you want. And when I build the helipad you might have an additional slow-moving target outside of restricted times or by prior arrangement.

Happy flying

[dazdaz]

Back in the 80s I use to ride my Kwaka 250c Taunton-Glastonbury mon-sat

Was buzzed many a time by mil choppers. Wearing a crash helmet and the thump of the four stroke Kwaka engine one only heard the chopper when directly above. Still, if it helped, it's ok with me. I gave them two fingers one day, and got two fingers back LOL.

Daz

Footnote:

As the Falklands was in early days, I took employment at RNAS Yeovilton due to past experience of a/c paint spraying. The RNAS were desperate to slap on the marine paint on the Harriers. Long story short, as they say. Met one of the heli crew who buzzed me. Still in touch today.

[Faithless]

Happy for you to use my car....I will put a Dayglo X on the roof for you all...

AAAArrrrrr......... listen to that roaring jet sound of freedom...reheat included..:ok:

[Beatriz Fontana]

I remember very well as a five year old being told by an instructor at Linton on Ouse that the RAF used to 'target' the bright yellow British Telecom wagons. At the time I thought he was winding me up...

Twenty years later, whilst on a joy ride in the back seat of an F4, I asked the pilot whether that was true.

It was true :)

Oh, and a whokka over central London this afternoon. Again.

[Background Noise]

It makes very little difference to the point on the ground whether it is a target or just randomly overflown - oh and it occurs outside Scotland too.

[esa-aardvark]

Back when my wife & I lived in the UK, not too far from Holt, Norfolk, we had a large
swimming pool in the back garden. Seemed to attract a lot of attention from Harriers,
A10's (dates me I know). Sadly there was never anyone topless in the pool (she says).
Of course just before GW1 our paddock got a lot of attention from large helicopters
and strangely the odd C-130, my wife was more concerned than me that they
might fall out of the sky. Of course I was mostly at work, not home.
Before that in the midlands we seemed to live under a turning point for
a midday Harrier, turning left to head north. So it's not just about Scotland.
I'm an Air force brat so don't mind.
John

[VMD+12]

Mr Gibson should read this report produced for Highlands and Islands Enterprise when the closure or reduction of RAF Kinloss and RAF Lossiemouth were mooted in 2005 This really lays out the economic benefit of the bases to Moray and the wider Highlands area

http://www.hie.co.uk/Moray/assessing-the-impact-of-rationalisation-of-raf-kinloss-and-lossiemouth-2005---final-pdf-report.pdf

[BEagle]

There's rather a nice old castle not far from Braemar which has had the odd flypast over the years, I gather.

It's the one with the fancy flag....

[clicker]

Been "attacked" by a Harrier coming off the wash ranges while resting in a layby and also targetted by a Tornado in Scotland.

If it sharpens the crews senses and helps save lives then I don't care what it does to me, its bloody well worth it.

[ricardian]

You are welcome to use my home at 59:08:25N 02:36:13W :ok:

[PPRuNe Radar]

Porridge-Wog-Land

It's not just a Scottish thing. Seen plenty low flying complaints from Southern lager shandy drinking softies, flat cap and whippet Northerners, and Welsh sheep fondlers as well :ok:

There, no racial bias on this thread now ;)

[ricardian]

You may wish to contact Mr Gibson. Here's how http://www.theyworkforyou.com/msp/rob_gibson
And NO, I didn't vote for him! Orkney has a LibDem MSP

[BEagle]

Back in more enlightened times, even the mighty Bulldog would have fun during 'Civil Defence' training at UASs.

Practising the 'no-radio' convoy direction procedure against an opportunity target was always fun - you had to time your overflight so that the driver could spot you in sufficient time to follow your hard turn up the appropriate road...:ok:

So, plan your pass, roar overhead at 'about' 250 ft, then a max rate turn up the road..... We'd practise this once a year just before the CD camp, then take our friendly coppers flying and get them to give the directions. The target vehicle would be the students in the sqn Sherpa, with a scanner tuned to the A/G freq.....at first. You did a few minutes of letting plod talk on the wireless, then simulated RT failure and had a ball! Trouble was, the coppers turned a light green colour after about 5 minutes of 'no RT' playtime!

Best fun I ever had was when the students took plod's wrong turning and ended up in a quiet Cotswold village - we then did the 'no RT' procedure and went whamming down the main road before hanging a left past the village pub to get them back on the right road!

And no-one ever complained!

Ahhh - and as the 'junta' planned the flying programme, we always ensured that there was the chance of a bit of Harry Doggers when the next mate pitched up to relieve you with his copper.... The Boss, CFI and DCFI were carefully planned to be on the ground at this point...:E

Another bit of RAF fun now gone for ever.

Mind you, Oxford :yuk: UAS used to have a task to take the Queen's swan keeper up the Thames every so often, to count the birds on some bit of river. Asked their Boss whether it was fun - he just smiled knowingly and muttered something about "Well, we did have to persuade some of the buggers to come out from under the trees!"

You may wish to contact Mr Gibson.

Perhaps you should remind him that just over 65 years ago his namesake was hard at work learning how to fly at a mere 60 ft....at night.

[Roland Pulfrew]

Rob Lives in Evanton, Easter Ross and enjoys organic gardening, folk music and hill walking with his partner Eleanor Scott MSP.

So two of them on the Scottish Parliament gravy train then? And he has the gall to complain that the "MoD is a blight on our economic lives and on our everyday lives." Pot. Kettle. Over.:rolleyes:

[Warmtoast]

I suppose the constituent who complained could always paint "Piss-off Biggles" on his roof as a Welsh farmer did on his barn a few years back, but it would probably be counterproductive as the Welshman found to his disgust as once word got around, pilots on flights down the Welsh valleys made a detour to see what was written on his barn roof!

Picture here: http://www.targeta.co.uk/wheretogo.htm

[Dan D'air]

This is ridiculous. Everone knows that Homes was English, Watson was the Scottish one. He trained at Edinburgh I believe.

[saudipc-9]

Rob Lives in Evanton, Easter Ross and enjoys organic gardening, folk music and hill walking.

OOOhhhhh Weeeeee!!!!!!! Now here is a guy I'd like to party with:}

[yankee Delta]

:)Good On them they must have something to practice on, At least if theyre not firing but to get locking experience.:)

[Pureteenlard]

When I worked on the motorways in Cumbria it was always said by some of the more experienced comms engineers that when you were working on a signal transponder at 3am at the top of Shap the RAF would use your flashing orange beacons as a dummy target since they could be seen for miles in the dark. Never believed it until a Jag or Tornado (I couldn't tell which. It was dark. All I saw was two blue afterburners and deduced that it probably wasn't a Harrier) crept up one night and scared the poo out of me. Just how does something that noisy manage not to be heard until it's on top of you? The result was me sitting up suddenly, smashing the back of my skull on the door frame of the 600 cabinet and then swearing solidly for two minutes.

Attracted by the noise, no doubt, a couple of minutes after that a horse crept up behind me, put it's head over the fence and blew in my ear.

I shrieked like a girl and wished I'd brought fresh shreddies.

BTW, I've just thought about it and now I realise how a jet aircraft can sneak up on you at night. Obvious when you think about it . . .

[wildweeble]

When I was a girl and coralled during the holidays into driving tractors on the farm, I used to thoroughly enjoy being targetted by the yanks in their Warthogs - and confess to sometimes abandonning whatever tedious task I would be doing (it invariably involved going up and down all day in straight lines) and haring around the field in top gear. They seemed to appreciate this.

Later, I lived for a while in a castle not far from Canterbury. I imagine it was either used as a target or waypoint by Tornado crews for they used to scream over the top of the keep low enough for us to smell the fuel.

If this was you, and if you thought that woman jumping up and down on the roof of the keep was furious, you'd be wrong. It was joy.

[GIATT]

Those of us in and around the Fleet estuary actually appreciate the visitors to the Freugh, it's always nice when a jet makes an obvious detour to overfly your boat.

Impresses the heck out of the kids when the crew wave back.

[Wensleydale]

The advantage of target of oportunity runs in Scotland is that the ginger hair and white knees help with target aquisition....unless you get a highland cow by mistake (the lack of white knees here is the giveaway).

[BikerMark]

"Or with F15Es dropping 500lbs bombs on Holme on Spalding Moor - they should worry."

I misread that as FS1E. The idea of a 1970's Yamaha sports moped carrying a 500lb bomb is most amusing. Now that is low level...

Mark.

[ShyTorque]

"Pilots target Scottish homes"

And why shouldn't we want to live in Scotland? There's enough of the bu&&ers living down here.

(Besides, I wouldn't mind those free prescriptions, free tertiary education for the kids, free.....).

[Airborne Aircrew]

It's not just a Scottish thing.

I guess you missed the whole point of the post... It loses something if it has to be explained but I'd be quite happy to do so if necessary...

Hint: It's all about Scotland... :E

[blue monday]

Used to live in Old Catton in Norwich, in the mid - late 80's jaguars- fequently used our row of detached houses as targets - was great inspired me (together with Top Gun - it was v big at the time, oh and mildenhall Airshow) to aspire to be a Fighter Pilot - well i made it inrto the RAF, and managed 56 hours PPL too, still work in aviation now - still have an unhealthy fascination with military planes and rotor craft.:ok:

[Out Of Trim]

Now then - What's the address?

http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=57.662964&lon=-4.337001&z=15.7&r=0&src=msl

- Right, looks good for a Lossie aircraft to approach from the south and poodle up the A9 and slight diversion to target - Watch out for the high ground to the west and low-level abort in full burner.. Oops! Then, observe the old disused RAF Evanton to the east as you pass. :E

[Rossian]

I notice that Mr Gibson's partner is also an MSP - two of them on the Holyrood gravy train; and she's a Green Party person. Very nearly explains it all doesn't it. I also believe she used to be wed to an RAF aircrew mate. Maybe explains some more?
The Ancient Mariner

[ScottishCop]

I live in Dumfries & Galloway and have to admit that the RAF / USAF / NATO using the area for low level flying seems to have quietened down in the last few years which is a shame as the locals here didnt mind at all!

[BOAC]

I hope that is a spelling mistake.... - first a laptop left on a train. Now the blab away another secret!

[PICKS135]

And why shouldn't we want to live in Scotland?

There's enough of the bu&&ers living down here.

(Besides, I wouldn't mind those free prescriptions, free tertiary education for the kids, free.....).


As someone with a dicky ticker, living in Scotland I wouldnt mind if we DID get free prescriptions. Your thinking of the Taff Mafia.

As for low flying. 2000ft is the lowest over my home:*:*:*:(:(:(

[glad rag]

Besides, I wouldn't mind those free prescriptions

If you can't get the basic facts of your argument right do us all a favour and bone up!! (or shut up your choice) as this is repetition of falsehoods is becoming irritating as is the presumption that we are Welsh (Hint They Do!):ugh:

[Say again s l o w l y]

Unfortunately no free prescriptions up here yet, though it's only a couple of years away.

Gentlemen, don't worry about tw*ts like Gibson he's an ar*e of the highest order. I've been used as a ground based and aerial target on occasion and don't mind one little bit. I'll dig out the co-ordinates of the house and then feel free to "attack" it as you wish.

[Background Noise]

It is very unlikely that people sitting in cars in laybys or working at night are used as targets as targets are generally planned in detail prior to the sortie. If you are on the ground, and happen to be overflown, it would also be nigh on impossible to tell whether you were a 'target' or simply underneath the flight path.

[Say again s l o w l y]

You are right, but I know I've been targeted as I know the chaps doing the targeting!

[hoodie]

Unfortunately no free prescriptions up here yet, though it's only a couple of years away.

Point of order: Scots or Welsh, now or in 2010, they're not free anway.

The English are paying for them. :ooh:

[/thread drift]

Now, how do we apply for practice-target status again? :}

[Guzlin Adnams]

BikerMark, the famous FS1E, so popular during the early 80's cos they weren't restricted to 30 like my MT5. As for a 500 pounder, an old mate of mine was pretty hefty and the FS carried him ok so there's a chance.....the MT wouldn't carry a ruddy quarter pounder!:O

Is there any way that the recalcitrant scotsman can be press-ganged in some manner and end up somewhere hot and dusty, surrounded by those who have Grandma Batty yorkshire puddings on their heads waving the wrong end of an AK47 at him.....lets call in a GR9...oops, sorry...too much noise for you sir.......:E

[matkat]

Come on guy"s loosen up! when did you ever believe a politician anyway??? would be difficult to target practice on my house as they would end up in the side of Balmullo hill!!!!

[ShyTorque]

Wrong once again

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Besides, I wouldn't mind those free prescriptions

If you can't get the basic facts of your argument right do us all a favour and bone up!! (or shut up your choice) as this is repetition of falsehoods is becoming irritating as is the presumption that we are Welsh (Hint They Do!)

Perhaps you should bone up, shut up yerself or find a sense of humour. Thanks for reminding of the one good reason I wouldn't really want to live in Scotland ....... I might end up like that, too. :rolleyes:

[Essexbird]

And they say women bitching is bad..............! :oh:
Think I may become a target now for the wrong reasons....:ugh:

[CirrusF]

If it were true that MOD were using civvies as mock target practise, then it would make an interesting court battle if an armed civvy (say a farmer, or offshore yachtsman) were to shoot back in self defence...

[BEagle]

On my first sqn low level sortie on the Vulcan, we flew a route over France at 300 ft. As we coasted out, there was a rowing boat ahead just off to the left of our track. The occupant was waving enthusiastically*, so obviously we did the decent thing and 'went and said hello' as we used to describe it!

*or perhaps he was simply trying to surrender?

[Fg Off Max Stout]

If it were true that MOD were using civvies as mock target practise, then it would make an interesting court battle if an armed civvy (say a farmer, or offshore yachtsman) were to shoot back in self defence...

To convince the jury that you acted in self defence, you would have to persuade them that you were genuinely in fear for your safety. Even the most paranoid would have a hard time trying to prove that they believe an RAF aircraft on a training sortie in the UK would engage them with weapons!

Open and shut case. Take him down.

[Cattivo]

For God's sake, this guy is a politician, he'll say anything that he thinks will get him re-elected, but its bloody typical for some of the idiots on this forum (ie airborne artist) to use a flippant article with little credence as an excuse to mount an anti-Scottish attack. All that usual crap about "if they don't like us then we'll take our armed forces home"... do be brief, bases in Scotland are mutually beneficial to both parties (engagement strategy/recruitment etc), and unless you actually can influence the decision to "pull out of Scotland" then shut the xxxx up. We're the British Military remember not the English one.

[Archimedes]

Er....

some of the idiots on this forum (ie airborne artist) to use a flippant article with little credence as an excuse to mount an anti-Scottish attack.

Have a look at Airborne Artist's posts on this thread.

Then have a look at Airborne Aircrew's contributions. Unless our artistic chum's comparison of Sarwar's views with Mr Beardy Folkist MSP's views is anti-Scottish, I think you might owe Airborne Artist an apology for calling him an idiot...

[labrador pup]

Cattivo

There was nothing flippant about that article, the said "gentleman" was on BBC TV tonight and is typical of the idiotic SNP - no RAF low level flying, no nuclear submarines on the Clyde, no nuclear powerstations etc. They make Albania look like a right wing republic (and if they ever get independence for Scotland will bring Scotland down to the level of countries like Albania.) I despair for my country :{

[Beatriz Fontana]

Fine. I've said it on here before, and I'll say it again. If the SNP want a referendum on independence, get it, win it, then the rest of the UK will remove its defences from Scottish land and shores. Then we'll see what the local people think about the Scottish MPs who ripped the economic and societal heart out of of their communities.

It's short-sighted twaddle.

[DX Wombat]

Now, how do we apply for practice-target status again?Do tell! I can think of a few places which could benefit. :E
Seriously though, and heaven forbid we should ever have a war here, wouldn't these NIMBYs most likely be the ones to complain if anything happened because of a lack of the skills mentioned? Where on earth are you supposed to train? If you can find my tin tent you are welcome to target it for practice, but NOT use it for live weapons training.

[youngskywalker]

The SNP make alot of noise but I really dont think that they represent the majority. Let them have a referendum, I'm pretty confident that they would lose it. Yet again though the anti scottish brigade on here are quick to chastise us all when most of us are perfectly happy and proud to be both Scottish and British. As a UK high rate tax payer I contribute to the UK's armed forces, why should we not be entitled to keep some if god forbid the SNP did get independance?

[typoon111]

I am firstly Scottish, then British and proud of it. I have family in England and often visit. What annoys me is that the anti scottish sentiment shown here greatly dishonours the massive contribution made by the scottish regiments and serving aircrew and sailors. Our regiments have for centuries fought hard and we have demanded and earned the respect of our British neighbours. I cannot help it if some baffoon from the SNP speaks a load of bull but do not tar us all with same brush. We have bled hard for Britain.

[Lono]

"... it's questionable whether all this low flying needs to take place ..."

BBC NEWS | Scotland | Highlands and Islands | Scotland 'ideal' for low-flying (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/highlands_and_islands/7473186.stm)

[CirrusF]

I am firstly Scottish, then British and proud of it. I have family in England and often visit. What annoys me is that the anti scottish sentiment shown here greatly dishonours the massive contribution made by the scottish regiments and serving aircrew and sailors. Our regiments have for centuries fought hard and we have demanded and earned the respect of our British neighbours. I cannot help it if some baffoon from the SNP speaks a load of bull but do not tar us all with same brush. We have bled hard for Britain.


That is the best post on this thread - well said!

[wildweeble]

I wouldn't worry too much about the opinions of Rob Gibson. All parties have rent-a-gobs and the SNP is especially blessed.

Putting aside the fact that defence is a reserved issue - which makes his opinion on this matter entirely irrelevent - and putting aside, too, your annoyance at the ingratitude of his complaint and your frustration at the apparent ignorance of an elected member of the Scottish parliament at a time when British servicemen and women are giving their lives, and take a moment to consider the SNP's record in government to date.

Pretty much every manifesto promise has so far fallen flat on its face.
Reduce class sizes? Can't afford it.
Local income tax? It'll cost more than council tax, say local authorities
Abolish student loans? Er, no, not exactly.
PFI? Local authority bonds, anyone..? Thought not.
Norwegian-style oil fund for Scotland? Not until Scotland becomes Norway.
I could go on but it has been a long day.

Now, before I'm accused of being a Labour/Tory/Lib Dem stooge, let me add that the opposition has been spectacularly feeble and it is my duty to torment them all.

So do not fear Rob Gibson, gentle military aviators, but carry on overflying his home happy in the knowledge that although his views mean doodly-squat, you are defending his right to have them.

[CWGrizwald]

"Or with F15Es dropping 500lbs bombs on Holme on Spalding Moor "

Oh for Christ sake, it was only a BDU-33 and the offending aircrew were properly chastised and made to buy beer. Besides, in his column the following Sunday, Jeremy Clarkson said it was ok since he dropped a bomb on the U.S. during his F-15E flight (although I was sitting a few feet in front of him and can't quite recall anything falling off the jet, except him, trying to climb down the ladder while holding his puke bag once it was all over). Way back when I was flying Hogs, while waiting to bootleg the east coast and the Wash ranges, if you were moving, you were a target. One guy in the Sqdn was accused of killing a horse once from the "noise" of an A-10 low flying. The victim was described as an expensive purebred but was most likely on the way to the glue factory when the grieving owner saw an opportunity to get some cash from Uncle Sam. God I miss low flying in the UK.

[mark sicknote]

The only danger low flying has posed to me has been whilst driving. I fondly remember bouncing in and out of ditches on the roads around Leuchars, craning my next out of the sunroof scanning for the Tornadoes in the circuit.

And the Phantom / Tornado dogfight I witnessed as a teenager above Portree was a joy to behold.


In fact, I'd gladly offer to take some of the Valley traffic and move it up north...but then the Welsh economy would suffer.

Keep em hot and low!

Best,

Sicknote

[Cattivo]

"Porridge-Wog-Land"

... thats a great contribution. Idiot.

[Wingswinger]

Back in the 70s in Belize, the only low-flying complaint we got from the locals was "why aren't you?".

[Airborne Aircrew]

Cattivo:

You need to go out and purchase a sense of humour and, since you responded to Archimedes and still manage to mistake my statement, (the "Porridge" one), as being by Airborne Artist you should probably do a course in remedial reading and comprehension.

I was making a joke, I'm sorry, (actually - that's a lie, I'm not, but it's polite to say it... :rolleyes:), if it went over your head... In order to try to prevent such a misunderstanding, (if you look really, really closely), you note that, right at the end of the post there was a :}. The implication of said smiley is that one is "having a bit of fun" as witnessed by the post's assertion that two aircraft carriers might fly low over "porridge wog land" targeting rowing boats...

You owe Airborne Artist an apology if, for no other reason, than you have proven that you type way faster than you think... Man up.

As to the "anti-scottish sentiment", having lived abroad for 20 years now, I was utterly unaware of said sentiment. However, when the elected leaders of Scotland make comments such as "The MoD is a blight...", then I can fully understand that the sentiment may raise it's ugly head. I would also suggest that the sentiment wasn't the result of that single statement but rather the result of a pattern of such statements and if the good people of Scotland don't like the sentiment I would suggest they quit voting in the type of leaders that make such boneheaded and divisive statements. By continuing to do so the people of Scotland are giving their tacit approval and therefore, probably, deserve what they get.

As to the Scotsmen and women who fight and die in the British Armed Forces: I was proud to serve alongside all the nationalities of the British Isles and, till the day I die, will continue to assert that they are, all, the finest soldiers, sailors and airmen/women in the world - bar none!

[Archimedes]

Cattivo

See, the problem with your post ORAC is that the carriers aren't built yet... so there's nothing to complain about... But, by 'eck there's going to be some bitching when they both start flying low over Porridge-Wog-Land and targeting rowing boats...,

Post No. 23 on this thread, clearly written, as he himself says, by Airborne Aircrew

Now - does Airborne Artist (note the difference spelling after the first 'A' of the second word) get his apology? And did you mean that I was the idiot for pointing out your error, or were you referring the person posting about 'Porridge'?

If I might suggest, before you reply to this one, how about putting down the spade and stepping carefully away from the hole you're digging for yourself? :hmm:

[airborne_artist]

Cattivo wrote:but its bloody typical for some of the idiots on this forum (ie airborne artist) to use a flippant article with little credence as an excuse to mount an anti-Scottish attack

Could you please explain what you think it is I wrote that is anti-Scottish, or otherwise explain your comment.

[Cattivo]

Both of these Airborne chumps carry the same sentiment. Lets use a low flying complaint (which only happen in Scotland of course) to have a dig at the Scots. One says "well lets take their council tax income away then" and the other uses a phrase that includes the word "wog". Thats offensive in any sphere of society so don't get on your high horse with me. That sort of language spoken would earn your uneducated ass a severe reprimand. Idiots.

[Archimedes]

Er... read airborne_artist's reference to council tax again, Cattivo.

Gibson said that the MOD was a blight on the lives of Scots. In response, Airborne Artist's said, and I'll quote it here to save you going back and finding it:

How much is the RAF in Moray and Fife worth to the local economies? How many civvies are employed, and what about the council tax paid by those who buy homes in the local area?

Which, I cannot help thinking, would be regarded by most people as being nothing more than a set of questions designed to point out that the MSP's observation that the MOD is a 'blight' on the economic life of Scotland and its inhabitants is a profundly silly thing to say. MOD personnel living in Scotland contribute to the local economy and to the local government funding and if, as Mr Gibson desires, the MOD ups and leaves, then that funding will reduce as the people go elsewhere. And if MOD employees end up redundant, then they will become an economic burden.

While I can see why you consider Airborne Aircrew's posts to be unacceptable rather than harsh banter, I fail to see how on earth airborne_artist's post can be taken to be an attack on Scots or Scotland. Pointing out that Gibson hasn't thought his charge of 'blight' through properly is not anti-Scottish.

And I'm sorry if you think I'm getting on a high horse, since I'm not. I'm merely pointing out that your attack on a_a is unjustified because you've clearly misinterpreted what he said.

[TalkTorqueTorc]

Jeez, some people are very touchy aren't they.

Do I get grief for being English? of course I do.
Do I give it back to the Scots? again, of course I do.
Is any of it meant seriously? of course not.

while there has always been rivalry and banter between the 'home nations' very few people actually take it seriously, although most of those that do tend to be the non-English :E

(and yes that's an example of the p*ss-taking I'm on about)

[airborne_artist]

Both of these Airborne chumps carry the same sentimentIdiots. When the going gets tough, the tough call people rude names. Love it....

[GANNET FAN]

Has anyone thought to find the English translation from Italian of Cattivo.
As far as I can remember its "naughty" or thereabouts.

Personally I think Cattivo is the idiot here

GF

[Wingswinger]

Do I get grief for being English? of course I do.
Do I give it back to the Scots? again, of course I do.
Is any of it meant seriously? of course not.


Spot on. Can't stand the separatists meself.

[Zoom]

God I miss low flying in the UK.

Hmmm....... searching for the irony here. :confused:

Is this you, then, CWGrizwald?

YouTube - Jeremy Clarkson in an F15E - Briefing and Flight. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwTXPQfGCpQ)

[Airborne Aircrew]

Cattyvo:

You were given perfectly good advice, here:-

If I might suggest, before you reply to this one, how about putting down the spade and stepping carefully away from the hole you're digging for yourself?You probably should have taken it.

You latest response is straight from "The Internet for Dummies". A touch of "avoid the apology expected of you" mixed with a cupful of Righteous Indignation. Stir in a spoonful of well seasoned Ad Hominem Attack and, bingo, you have your well reasoned response.

Whether your indignation is well founded or not, you still owe Mr. Artist an apology for attributing something you deem so offensive to him in error. To date you have proven that you are not man, (or woman should that be the case), enough to do so.

As far as political correctness is concerned: My level of political correctness is indirectly proportional to the thickness of your skin. I've never been a great fan of a petty form of mind control perpetrated by the weak in a desperate attempt to control those whom they cannot by strength of will. If you don't like such "foul" language it would be appropriate for you to remember that this is the internet and, if you don't like it, you don't have to turn on your computer. Censor yourself, not me! := := :=

Lastly... In three short messages you have used the following phrases:-

its bloody typical for some of the idiots on this forum (ie airborne artist)
then shut the xxxx up
thats a great contribution. Idiot.
Both of these Airborne chumps
would earn your uneducated ass a severe reprimand. Idiots.... and then you bash on about someone being insulting!!!

It's been a pleasure watching you storm the moral low ground... :rolleyes:

Apologize or poke off... :D

[airborne_artist]

AA - thanks for the support - love the moniker BTW :}

Cattivo - just assume that the article had been about an elected representative of Lincolnshire who had said:

"The MoD is a blight on our economic lives and on our everyday lives here in Lincolnshire" and I then asked the same questions about the economic value of the RAF to the county. Would most readers have assumed that a) I was anti-Lincolnians and b) that I was suggesting the RAF moved out of Lincolnshire? I doubt it.

As it happens I'm not anti-Scots, nor was I suggesting the RAF should leave Scotland. I was simply asking rhetorical questions that Mr Gibson had not considered, to point out what was, in my opinion, a sweeping and very inaccurate statement.

Keep up the tirade of epithets, but I doubt they'll stick - my last substantive rank was Corporal :E

[TiffyFGR4]

Good for the RAF I say, training is training, if the locals don't like it, then........Tough bloody titty!!! Next time you moan & whin about it, make sure a Harrier is flying over your head so we can't hear a moaning word you're saying :}

Be cool to be targeted by a Harrier, Tornado, Hawk or a Typhoon....Not for real of course, don't fancy on eating a 27mm bullet or play chicken with a 1000lb bomb :}

[TrakBall]

I'll be over from the states on holiday in the Highlands for a week beginnign October 18 - so if you see a small rental car on the road by Loch Laggan, please feel free to use me as a simulated target. I promise not to mess up your aim by driving on the "wrong" side of your roads.

Cheers :ok:
TB

[228 OCU]

Slightly OT but an amusing aside to the original post.

During the filming of "The Blue Max" (1966), there was a break in filming during one of dogfight scenes for the camera plane to get back up-sun. The pilot of the Pfalz (Fokker DR1), decided to have a stooge about, and saw a chap fly fishing in the middle of a wide river. He went low level down the river to-wards the fisherman "firing" at him. The fisherman on hearing the rata tat tat, looked up to see the Pfalz bearing down on him, whereupon he dropped his rod and ran for cover.
Although it was far from funny for the poor chap fishing; I must confess that I would have found it very hard to resist the temptation.:E




If in doubt BANG OUT.

[TomH1408]

I always think what a shame it is when articles like this come out. Sure some people will complain about low flying jets but I bet for every one complaint there may be hundreds of people who thought that Harrier/Tornado/Eagle/anything else fast and pointy flying very quickly and very low was one of the coolest things they have ever seen. Its just human nature to complain about something they dislike but do nothing about something they enjoyed!