Lordon Report on AC Pilot Seniority

[dadof6]

Lordon Report on merged pilot seniority was released by ACPA. Recommends removal of .25% ratio penalty for all original AC pilots imposed by arbitrator Keller in June of 2003 and that date of merger be 17 OCT 2000 instead of date used by Keller of 15 June 2003. Moreover, recommends pilot union change its own seniority list instead of asking CIRB to do the job.

Standby for more union turmoil and hostility!

Sorry couldn't upload report here. Perhps someone more tech savy can?

[4-Daned]

Yawwnnnn...

[Johnny767]

ACPA...the joke of "Pilot Associations."

Double yawn.

[kingoftheslipstream]

It would really be useful to see the report, now that you've whet our appetites... surely if you can handle bein' a Papa to six rugrats, ya can figure out how to link the report or upload it? Oh, wait, you won't have time to scratch yer balls with six young 'uns! Try this:

Save it to your own computer: "Desktop" should work as a location. Open up PPRUNE, and one a these windows to post on this thread.

Open yer saved report and "Edit" - "select all" to highlight the text, then copy it to your clipboard and then paste it in this window on PPRUNE... it should work OK. Good luck.

I'd like to see the report.

ACPA is one of the dumbest unions on the planet. They were/are always two steps behind Mrs Milton's little boy Robert. He surrounded himself with help ACPA couldn't begin to compete against... what was that little legal wolverine's name, the guy who came from the firm Stikeman - Elliot? I think he had a Romanian name or somethin' like that. As a solicitor he was like hell out for recess... He was way ahead of ACPA - don't know if he's still 'round or not. And the whole Liberal attitude in Canada whereby a failed carrier like CAIL could start writin' the rules of seniority at AC was just wrong minded dumb ass soft headed Canadian thinking.

The ACPA strike in Autumn of '98... held the airline ransom for two weeks for a pair of shoes and a roll aboard bag... it was a professional disgrace and an unmitigated failure.

Nuff said pardner, see whatcha can do about the report and good luck with the current tough times... droppin' about 120 off the list is gonna hurt and '09 is gonna be all that much tougher when ya git back to bargaining on the new contract. I do wish you the best - all of my AC buddies.

Happy contrails
k-o-t-s

[dadof6]

Well King of the Lawn Dart! How gracious of you to deign us with your dripping admiration of ACPA! You really write with authority, expertise and such in-depth knowledge!

Let me guess: You failed your AC interview, are a frustrated Dash 8 f/o based in Sault Ste Marie that rarely gets above FL 100 and pines for the day to etch your first contrail, anyday you're expecting the Picher Award to get implemented so you can get that 747-400 right seat you're entitled to, your retirement planning is based on winning a 500 million dollar lawsuit and you don't wear a hat in terminals so you can show off your ALPA tattoo stamped to your narrow forehead!

Don't concern yourself with the Lordon report...when you merge with ACPA the arbitrator will have only two words for your group: "END TAIL" ...four if he/she's francophone: "EN DESSOUS LA LISTE" ou B.O.T.L.

And as as far as my kids go, they have one advantage over you...at leat they know who their father is.

Bless your sweet little keyboard Sonny!

[richardhead]

Why is it that whenever somebody has something not so nice to say about AC, it must be that he has failed the interview?

[ea340]

Kots
Give us an example of one ALPA member airline that came out of chapter 11 with a better contract than ACPA . Last I looked ACPA pilots still have pensions. It appears a B777 captain at AC makes about 40 grand more than any ALPA member except FedEx. ACPA pilots still have medical and other benefits paid for. I have yet to meet an ALPA member who went thru chapter 11 that would not trade contracts . ALPA seems to be having trouble with US AIR for some reasons fill us in. In fact BALPA is having problems I see with Open Sky

[saudipc-9]

Last I looked ACPA pilots still have pensions

Let's be fair, I think that has more to do with Canadian Laws than it does with ACPA. As I understand it (correct me if I'm wrong) but pension funds are protected and cannot be used or borrowed against to help an airline in financial difficulty.

[kingoftheslipstream]

Dadof6

What set that off?

Yer assumptions ‘bout me are inaccurate. I retired from AC years ago, although I still fly. I also flew in the lawn-dart as the CF-104 was affectionately known on occasion (I was a passenger on 3 occasions to be accurate, my buddy was a member of 417 Sqn at CFB Cold Lake).

I care deeply about the outcome of ACPA’s negotiations and the impact it will have on all my AC buddies who’re pensioned and still flyin’, includin’ all my buddies who are from the former CAIL. Fer better or worse, you are all still ACPA.

I wholeheartedly supported the creation of ACPA (to protect the 243) and I even marched in the strike of ’98, although I was a little vexed…

My remarks about ACPA are in the public realm and you are free to attack or advance your own arguments to dispute. My statements about ACPA are purposefully vague in terms of names – I did that to protect myself and PPrune. The remainder of my remarks are substantively accurate and I stand by them. The results of contract negotiations in ‘98 and the aftermath of the merger and 9/11 (protection from creditors in spring ’03) support my point of view. In simple terms, ACPA is losing ground in all areas. There have been very few wins and they do not mitigate the losses.

I made no personal attack on you – my remarks about you bein’ too busy to scratch yer balls was made empathetically. You and Mrs. Dadof6 will be a very busy family. Furthermore I actually offered you the assistance you solicited in yer’ post. Why would you ask fer tech savvy help and then piss all over the person who gave it to ya?

Yer remarks about the lineage of our children is an unnecessary and unprovoked personal attack. Sez a lot more ‘bout you ‘n does about me.

[ea340]

Kots
Still standing by for an Alpa contract better than Acpa's . Alpa and Balpa are having serious problems these days but you know that .If you are retired or about to be retired you can thank your lucky stars Alpa was not your union but then again you know that

[Left Coaster]

Very important comment above wrt pensions in Canada v the US... In fact pensions in Canada are protected and separated from the company to keep them out of the hands of less than savoury COO's. Don't make the mistake of thinking that a company would never try to get hold of that cash! Several conversations with senior management types at the old CAIL indicated that those pensions were a target a few times. Luckily it was against the law.
As far as the sniping between ACPA/ALPA seen here, it's nice to see that things never change between brothers and sisters in the Great White North!:hmm:

[ea340]

Left Coaster
There are parts of the pension we could have lost as KOTS is aware . At the time only about half my pension was protected . So far we have kept the wolves at bay . Acpa does have issues all unions do but not as bad as some would have us believe. A B777 captain at AC makes about $40,000 more than our friends at United. Can anyone remeber when a Canadian airline pilot made as much as an American pilot

[Auroradude]

ea340,

Glad you are happy with your salary. Don't forget to vote yes on pay raises for us poor EMJ pilots next year.:ok:

[ea340]

Will do :ok:

[4-Daned]

Left Coaster:

Your insinuation that CAIL was after any pilot's pension is a little bit...well....I've never heard of this!

[LEMD]

He said "Several conversations with senior management types at the old CAIL indicated that those pensions were a target a few times."

He didn't say they were the ones (or who was) doing the targeting.

[kingoftheslipstream]

At present, if my info is correct, the only part of an AC pilots pension which is protected by the Federal Gov't is the first 60k, which is limited by law (unless you're an MP interestinly enough...). The remainder of our pension, the 'top hat' portion funded from general AC revenues is protected only partially - about 15% of 'top hat'.

As for a request for me to provide proof of a post Ch. 11 ALPA contract better 'n an ACPA contract... well I jes can't do that. Your question is a rhetorical one and does not need an answer - you knew the answer to it before ya asked the question... besides, there's a confusin' set of issues in that Canada doesn't have "Ch 11" as such, it has a version which is similar... furthermore the nations' differences are such that direct comparisons are fruitless... ACPA tried for years to tie AC wage increases to what the folks at UA were getting (fellow member of Star Alliance and all that) but it doesn't work for many complicated reasons...

Gotta go...

[Johnny767]

There was never any run at the CAIL pension. During the concessionary bargaining, the changes to the Collective Agreement were all done at the bargaining table.

Whole different scene during CCAA, like ACPA dealt with.

[Left Coaster]

To be sure, the so called run at the pensions was way before the ACPA/ALPA issue, the info I have came from a good source, the full amount was not protected. That was the serious cause for concern for many. I admit I am not a pension actuary so I might not be privy to all the details. The worry was, at the time, just how much could be lost. Senior boys at CAIL had a lot to lose. Add the WD and PWA spin to it and you might see how anxious a time it was. Happy Landings!

[Zeke425]

Couldn't find the actual report on the web, but this is a pretty accurate summary:

Give Air Canada pilots their due - FP Comment (http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fpcomment/archive/2008/06/27/give-air-canada-pilots-their-due.aspx)

[4-Daned]

This post is a dead-end...Never to be agreed on. But one things for sure, when the government regulates, then semi-de-regulates, then regulates on a forced merger...

Its a bit more complicated than this Dweeb's opinions.....

[Johnny767]

Left Coaster:

I don't know who, your source is. But, he is dead wrong. Don't take any stock market advice from him/her.

There was never any "run" at the CAIL pension. CAIL was never bankrupt, unlike Air Canada. There were a couple of concessionary contracts that were all mutually negotiated between the company and CALPA.

Besides, why on earth would it even matter? Someone mouthing off, on something they don't have a clue about.

More miss-information!

[davi8r]

I would be embarrassed to work for AC.

[Auroradude]

Been here two years, after having proudly served with the Canadian Forces for 21 years. I am equally as proud every time that I put on my Air Canada uniform and go to work with some truly fantastic people.

[Johnny767]

Glad to hear it, Auroradude, It could (?) be great!

Unfortunately, at the moment, we have a bunch of amateurs at the helm of ACPA.

[ea340]

767 you could run for LEC

[yogi4t4]

Certainly ACPA has had a hard go as have all pilot associations in North America.
Unfortunately for the Air Canada pilots ALPA has been scabbing their flying for years. Makes it hard to leverage up wages. So if you lament the downhill spiral think who caused it. The last opportunity was during CCAA where they did the deal with Rovinesceu to steal yet more flying. Easy to blame ACPA but with members like Johnny767 what can any pilot group do. Yes I agree the 98 strike was stupid. So run for office and provide your own brilliance. At least ACPA is democratic. I know a lot of JAZZ pilots that would have loved to have a vote when the Clique was running ALPA.

[remarkablebean]

5 years ago, the drivers in BlueStar threatened Eustache and the gang with mass walkout, and in future if they don't play ball, I want to see the same thing happening too...but they will:ok:

In a lot of us, there's this balance emerging between a fair wage for the job we do, and being fair to those who pay our salaries...we know the industry is in flux, in a state of disrepair, and we are pliable and understand what the beancounters need to achieve.

That said, fair working conditions, fair wage, fair promotion prospects are no different for us than other professionals.

Without mobilized representation, like any other worker group, we're open to exploitation...look at what O'Leary thinks of his pilots over at Ryanair, and the disdain Milton had when running AC. Having never worked at AC, it's only what I hear, but anyone who is a member of chevaliers du ciel is bound to be unbalanced :E