Dolly landing gone wrong.

[vaqueroaero]

Don't know if this has been posted before.

Take care if you land on a dolly.

Click on the link at the bottom to see the movie.

http://www.journaldujura.ch/Nouvelles%20en%20ligne/R%C3%A9gion/31485

[SASless]

Talk about a sudden stoppage of the main rotor blades!!!:ooh:

[BigMike]

http://www.journaldujura.ch/modules/news/news/images/imagePopup.asp?id=31485

Translation:

A helicopter crash took place at the airport in Granges Wednesday afternoon, injuring the pilot. Our colleagues of TeleBielingue received a video of a viewer who has filmed, to discover on our site.

As he landed normally at the airport in Granges, Wednesday at 1655, a helicopter Helisuisse suddenly fell on its side, in a spectacular explosion caused by the blades hit the ground. The pilot was uninjured in the accident. He was able to leave their own aircraft. The helicopter was completely destroyed.

A witness was on the scene: Christophe Röthlisberger, who has filmed. He sent his video to TeleBielingue, which we make available. A show will be broadcast on TeleBielingue à ce sujet, Thursday evening.

The Solothurn cantonal police opened an investigation jointly with the Federal Bureau of Accident Investigation Aviation (AAIB), to know the exact causes of the accident.

[VfrpilotPB/2]

That took no more than one, possibly two Blinks of the pilots eye, that was quick, glad the PI is OK.

Vfrpilotpb:eek:

[jab]

Blink? I think his eyes were very wide open! :E

[FILCI]

Lucky that he survived in order that can face the consequences of his total incompetancy.

[Captain Gartmort]

Now that's what you call a bad day at the office!!!!

[Daysleeper]

OK so putting aside - no speculation blah blah....help me out here - low time heli pilot on way to ppl (h)


The inital landing on the dolly goes a bit wrong, looks like one skid is off the edge, or maybe the dolly collapses partially...... however looks like he then tries to lift again and gets what...skid stuck on/under the dolly leading to a sort of dynamic rollover?

[PITCH LINK]

What about the poor chap on the ladder?

[skadi]

What about the poor chap on the ladder?


Maybe he needs a new set of underwear.....

According to the newspapers, nobody was hurt in this accident!

skadi

[helimutt]

FILCI, there's always one tw@t on PPRuNe isn't there? Incompetent? Ever heard of accidents? but incompetence? Hope you never prove your incompetence to a wide audience! The guys here on PPRuNe will take great pleasure picking it apart no doubt.

[MightyGem]

On my very first duty as a Police pilot, with a grand total of 5 hours on a Squirrel, I had to take off and land on a dolly. He has my sympathies.

[Jetscream 32]

hindsight is a wonderful thing..... but i think quite a few of us have been close in a number of different ways - but the mindset has a major implication of this scenario......... rabbit runs out in front of you driving with oncoming trafic the other way... do you swerve and total the car and maybe the other plus people or do you run the rabbit over and live another day....

landing on a bogey..... - it slides do you leave the collective fully lowered and let it fall off with a quick shut down - or do you lift to recover and try to reposition....caught me out in ireland in 90....... do not envy this chap..... just real bad luck...... cant see it being anything other than that.....

crap day in the office........:bored:

[biggestboy]

FILCI -no comment!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

[EN48]

This kind of accident is entirely preventable. Simple: dont land on a dolly. This is a dark ages way to move a helicopter on the ground and these claim helicopters with great regularity (and sometimes the life of a pilot and/or bystander). There are modern devices for moving helicopters which entirely eliminate the risks of landing on a dolly. One such device is the Heliporter made by ParAvion. I have been using one of these for some time and in addition to working flawlessly, it is a mechanical work of art I would be proud to display in my living room. Some may argue that these are "expensive" but at a price of about 0.3% of the price of a new Squirrel, it doesnt seem expensive at all.

All of the above IMHO, of course. Blast away!

EN48

[Gas Producer]

We land Squirrels on trolleys everyday. One of our trolleys is only marginally larger than the skid print of the aircraft.

First couple of times I did it I was nervous as hell. After a while you get used to it, but don't ever get complacent . . .

Bottom line? Take your time, and if in doubt . . . chicken out.

GP

[Pilot DAR]

My first number of dolly landings were not too pretty either, and that was the 300CB. I found the S300 to be very stable in the hover compared to the AS350, which I found extra challenging to hover neatly. (Okay, my hovering of an AS350 would never had been called neat, in the total of 3 hours I have in one!)

My untrained eye thinks it sees ground resonance develope there, and I can certainly appreciate how that could wiggle the helicopter off the side of the dolly, beyond the control of the pilot. I had to test an AS350 for ground resonance, and it scared the heck out of me! What can I learn for this? Dollys seem to be unavoidable....

FILCI, are you the most compotent pilot who ever flew? I've heard tales of him, but never believed he actually existed!

[Scissorlink]

This kind of accident is entirely preventable. Simple: dont land on a dolly.

EN48 Why Not?? Gas producer said it bang on, we as well used to land on trollies all the time..tho nerve wracking at the start I can tell you for a fact it is a hell of a lot easier on them then landing on a rocky boulder strewn riverbed to pick up fisherman.

[whoateallthepies]

FILCI
You can't even spell. Should you be making comments about others?

I sympathise with the poor pilot having spent many years landing on "dollies". Glad no-one was hurt. http://i.1asphost.com/whoateallthepies/pie.jpg

[ShyTorque]

We used to land "our" police 355N on a powered dolly. Horrible idea. The pilot couldn't actually see the dolly at all when the aircraft was correctly positioned over it and it was especially difficult at night. I used to dread the thought of dropping a skid off the side, like this poor pilot did.

We used to complain about it and they eventually bought a "chopper spotter" so the pilot could land on the ground, like he was always supposed to do. The lifting device could then be driven under the skids, on its electric motor.

One night, at the end of the shift the dolly's engine drive failed halfway into the hangar and the aircraft couldn't be secured so the police had to guard it all night. They thought about a replacement moving device much more seriously after that. :ok:

Proper helicopters have wheels, anyway.

[EN48]

EN48 Why Not??


Apparently you didnt look at the video in the first post of this thread. You'll find the answer there.

[BlenderPilot]

My helicopter is hangared at a small "helicopter only runway" at our airport. . . . . . . . there are at least 65 turbine helicopters in that place, 6 hangars lined up on a 1/4 of a mile stretch, and NOT A SINGLE DOLLY, are they really necessary??????

Dolly's are convinient, for who? At the expense of safety?

I don't have a problem landing on them, but even with 1000's of hours one of the few times I have been close to having an accident was after I had landed on a dolly, SOMEONE FORGOT TO CHOCK THE WHEELS AND THE DOLLY STARTED ROLLING AFTER I WAS AT FLIGHT IDLE, BY THE TIME THE DOLLY STOPPED THE HELICOTER HAD STOPPED ITSELF WITH THE NOSE, AGAINST A TRACTOR!! FORTUNATELY NOT THE ROTOR AGAINST THE HANGAR.

[Overdrive]

My untrained eye thinks it sees ground resonance develope there, and I can certainly appreciate how that could wiggle the helicopter off the side of the dolly, beyond the control of the pilot.



Mine too. Easy to say from here, but perhaps an early hop back up was the answer when it first kicked? Watch it over at full size in Real Player... looks like he lifted off with a lot of left pedal on. You can see what he's doing with the stick too.

Just glad I've not got near to doing this... yet :uhoh:

[007helicopter]

MALC

The Hiller picture you show the wheels are meant to be removed so I am surprised if you flew it with them attatched, intentionally anyway.........


I land my Hiller on a dolly all the time and this guy has my sympathy.

[rtrnewboy]

They are right bias arent they - seems to me like he pulled/jerked and aplied no right pedal hence the swivel and he probably dropped it as a natural correction and that left it - where it lay. Not sure if the speed of the flash player plays faster than real but he does seem to be rushing - hope he wasnt being pushed by ATC's or some other reason. Would you agree the conditions look perfect !! :ugh:

[helofixer]

As a helicopter mechanic and not a pilot, I hope my opinion wont be dismissed out of hand here. Yes I know I should be haunting the engineers board, but there just aren't many rotary wing topics for me to opine on.

I do not care for dollies for a few reasons. Doing maint. perched on ladders all day sucks. Smaller dollies do not allow for positioning of proper work stands, and even on the larger ones it can get dodgy. Then you have the added annoyance of having to continually get off the ladder, off the dolly, to your toolbox get the tool you need climb up the dolly and then the ladder to get to where you are working. Hard on the old back and knees on those long shifts in the summer heat. Then you have to have another piece of GSE like a tractor or tug to move the dollies, and the dollies themselves to keep in proper working order. Thats more kit I have to maintain...and I have enough on my plate already.

I work for a company that has used Paravion heliporters for B3's, L3's, L4's, 407's and Enstrom 480's for almost 10 years. Our pilots are trained on the heliporters and are tasked to move aircraft in and out of the hangar for flights, unless we have a maintenance job, then the mechs do it. I am pleased with the performance of the Heliporter. Low maintenance (other than routine servicing of batteries, lubing the grease fittings, and the occasional replacement of a battery charger,bad battery, worn out drive tire or broken control cable (really rare) they are close to bullet proof.)

Yes you do need to be careful that you position the porter correctly before you lift the aircraft, and that if you dont plug it in from time to time the batteries will be dead when you go to use it and you will be stuck using ground handling wheels. Another plus is that if you have multiple aircraft types and heliporters and one of your heliporters goes tango uniform, all you have to do is move some lift pegs from one porter to the other and you are back in the business of moving aircraft. The lights on the porter and the optional APU plug are just icing on the cake.

Thank you for your time
:ok:

[malc4d]

007, as you should know............you pull out the pin, turn the wheels upwards with a long metal pole, and put the pin back in. Off you fly, do the reverse when landed................:ok:

I have never tried a dolly landing and this guy gets my sympathy..........

[helimutt]

years ago when I was doing my PPL(H), I had the opportunity to land a 206 on a dolly a few times. Nearly always a fair tail wind, near hangars and a very narrow dolly. I can't put into words how stressful I found it. Used to get very tense on the controls and sweat like hell. My instructor used to talk me down and wouldn't follow through on the controls. Said I could manage without his help. Not something I liked at all, then, a couple of years ago was doing a survey job in a 206, having to land on a raised wooden platform due to ground conditions being less than perfect. Platform was 'just' the width of the skids. I landed and one of the skids was ever so slightly off to one side, and of course it caught as I tried to lift and re-position. Bloody x-winds!! :eek:About as close as i've come to rolling one over and it happens so so quickly. Only a bruised ego and a new pair of shorts required that time! :ok:
Surely if you can afford a helicopter, you can afford a heli-mover??

ps, agree that proper helicopters have wheels!! ;)

[TheVelvetGlove]

Skids are for kids !!!!:}

[Pilot DAR]

I learned in S300's on dollys. From the very beginning I was nervous, and never did get completely over it. It was a luxury if the student before me would leave the helicopter on the grass instead! I suppose that it made me better pilot. The log pad work in the mountains did seem kinda easy after the dolly. Not that there was any more landing area, but there was not a hanger right in front of me, and an expensive B206 right beside me! I won't be sorry if I don't need to use a dolly again, but I suppose that it is part of complete training.

[Upland Goose]

My sympathies to any "dolly" operators. When I operated a Twin Squirrel for a well known UK Retailer we commissioned a dolly to supplement the one man band operation.

My first landing, at night, (downwind Force 6) frightened me S*******S. I decided to couple up my Ford Sierra (1988 - what a year) to the 50mm ball (prime mover) to give me a forward reference.

I used to line up, the right roof gutter with the aerial and it was like shooting fish in a barrel.

It proves you cannot hover by reference to the chin bubble. Some years later I was trying to land G-OITN on the very same dolly. The one on which I had scores of landings. Without the Sierra, or equivalent, it was a nightmare all over again.

One famous dolly incident on the North Sea involved a Bell 212 G-BFER. It became known as "Echo Rollover" - it never flew straight after the rebuild!

Happy Days!

UG

[John Eacott]

One famous dolly incident on the North Sea involved a Bell 212 G-BFER. It became known as "Echo Rollover" - it never flew straight after the rebuild!

Lots of improvements result from B'fer's rollover: pax seat struts being painted for use as ladders was one of them, as the driver was stuck in the aircraft, unable to climb out with the door falling shut on him with each attempt! The Noggies had been told that their home made guard on the trolley hydraullic levers would End In Tears, but they needed a bit of convincing ;) Same with their fire fighting rig, which wouldn't reach the second helideck, which (of course) was where the rollover occured :rolleyes: ISTR the driver needed a medicinal Scotch or two after the rescue :p

Re the argument for/against landing trolleys: I had three trolleys and one 'heliporter'. The limitations on the heliporter were far more restrictive than the trolleys, as many underfuselage attachments prevented the heliporter fitting underneath, eg camera mounts, antennae, fog lights (for frost work). Skin damage with the arms not lining up with the crossbars happened with monotonous regularity :{

If the trolley is built properly with a metre each side greater than the skid width plus a metre at the front and back longer than the skids, there should be ample visual cues. All my trolleys met these criteria, and I didn't find a great deal of an issue. Parking into the prevailing wind is also a given, why anyone would not do so is beyond me: a problem of their own making! If the wind shifts before landing, get the trolley moved before you land on it :hmm: Just about all the issues that I've encountered with trolleys have been because they were built too small, and gave little or no visual cues to the pilot.

Some years back, the Queensland premier (Jo BP) learnt to fly helicopters, and insisted on flying the Government Squirrel. Rumour has it that in order to discourage him, the trolley was built with minimal clearance all round. Unfortunately he handled it admirably, so the pilots then had to contend with a trolley with only a few inches clearance on a daily basis, much to their regret :(

[helonorth]

When I first started flying, the 300 I flew was kept on a cart. Pretty good
sized one, too, but it was always a sweaty experience for me. I just
started working part time for a guy flying a 206 that is on a cart. Not
much room for error. Instead of hovering over it and setting it down, he
told me to just make a mini approach to it. When the tongue of the
cart appears in the right spot in the chin bubble, set it down. Works like
a charm every time. Even when the line guys put it downwind.

To the poster that called the accident pilot incompetent: Whenever
someone makes a mistake, are they incompetent? No, I would say that
makes them human. Careless, maybe, but not incompetent. Maybe the
pilot is incompetent, but I wouldn't say that from looking at that video.
I don't know the guy.

[Regain]

Skids are for kids
Wheels are for t*ats!

[Hughesy]

We land our AS350/AS355 on the Trolly/Dolly. Granted it takes a bit more caution then it does landing on a pad alone (which we do also) but with a self brief before parking it seems to help.
I and the other pilots here use the chin bubble and the mirror to confirm where we are placed on it as we are landing.
In my mind there is not a lot of differance to landing on a trolly/Dolly then there is doing a toe in/pinnacle landing/ hover exit etc etc. Care has to be taken in all aspects of these operations.

About the pilot involved....good Kiwi (Toyota) expression comes to me..
Bugger me! Chin up buddy, **** happens.

Hughesy

[RotorDompteur]

Landing on a dolly demands extra concentration, no doubt about that. But I believe that the problems often caused by the dolly being too small. Larger dollies is more forgiving.

RD

[CYHeli]

An important thing is planning, includes construction (point taken John E) and never under estimate training.

Check out this one. The pilot never realised just how far forward he was until he went to get out.:{ (Not me)

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z275/colundy/Aviation/trolley.jpg

The other thing to remember is that a trolley designed for one type might not be suitable for another.

[scooter boy]

CYHeli,
The position of the R44 in the above picture is absolutely fine as far as CG positioning goes.
Usually I would expect the opposite when landing the 44 on a tight spot (i:e pilot landing with the skids too far back).
As has been previously stated, I cannot understand why people need to use dollies when other safer options exist - their use seems unnecessarily stressful and dangerous.

Wheels and helimover have served me well for 6 years.
No plans to change anytime soon.

SB

[tecpilot]

According to eye witnesses the poor pilot hooked in the on the left skidend mounted snow pad under the dolly after leaving the dolly with the left gear and while turning to the left.

Dollylanding is as safe or as dangerous like other helicopter ops. In every minute of helicopterflying the pilot should be ready and concentrated to master the situation or better stayed in bed.

This guy hammered the ship on the dolly like our plank friends say with "positive touchdown". Yes thats the correct way, but only to break the gear. Should be interesting to see this guy placing the helicopter on a small ridge or mountain spot.

This is only an other human error, nothing to do with the "dangerous" dolly.

[qwagga1]

I Can only sympathize with the pilot. Dolly landings are always "interesting". In the squirrel I found to open my door allows me better referrence.
Good luck chap! Its difficult on the best days.

[ShyTorque]

Parking into the prevailing wind is also a given, why anyone would not do so is beyond me: a problem of their own making! If the wind shifts before landing, get the trolley moved before you land on it

But there's not always someone back at base to do stuff like that. Some of us operate with no ground back up whatsoever.

A bit of skin damage caused by a skid lifter can be repaired; a bent heli lying on its side with all the blades gone is a different prospect altogether.

I'm glad to have wheels on the heli I now fly. Worst I'm likely to do is ding it into the boss's jet when putting it away in the hangar with the tow truck.

[RINKER]

Feel sorry for the pilot. I thought it was just me on dolly landings. I used to land Gazelles on dollies but always with a CPL in left seat , they never had to help and as the platforms were quite large I didn,t find them a problem. Later a friend bought an R44 and kept it on a much smaller dolly. He let me use this aircraft on occasions and said I could just go and take off from the platform without being checked out. I was not too sure about this so enlisted a good friend CPL/ IR / CFI who Had a lot of Dolly experience .He showed me how this Dolly had a yellow rod protruding form the front which you lined up between your feet on approach as you went sort of zero zero forward and down and a yellow rod at the side that as it came into your periferal vision at the side approx in line with your shoulder you set it down perfect every time.
If it was very windy with the turbelence around the hangar it still was tricky especially if the aircraft was ligthly laden.I rember one day as I was out the wind really got up and changed direction which would mean landing on the grass shutting down getting out and repositioning the dolly.Not too much of a problem but then I had to come in over a fence and set down on the platform with a shed just in front of the blades. Guess what I did . I left aircraft on the grass and phoned the owner and told him I wasn't confident in this manouvere so he said no problem and came down from the house and popped it on himself no problem after all he was more used to it than me. But for me if there is any doubt then there is NO doubt and I just don't do it.
Tell you what landing on these things is great practice. Landing on normal sites afterwards was a lot easier.

Fly safe
R

[FILCI]

Spelling mistakes - no excuses, hit taken fair and square.

On reflection, I should have used the phrase 'probable lack of training' to end my last input. What training is given to those who are likely to use a dolly? My instinct would be to treat it as a CA, establish forward and lateral markers and carry out a sloping-ground style landing, then any unusual attitude that developed during the landing could be dealt with by taking off again and repositioning. Where to look during the landing is an area of concern, as to look close in to the right could lead to a forward and right drift during the descent. Should that movement be anticipated by positioning slightly left and back and a good vertical descent was carried out, a mis-landing could result. Question is, are the actions to be taken in case of a mis-landing taught?

Pilot DAR - refer to line one please.