Should I continue?

[mikejwright]

Hello Chaps and Chapettes

Would you be so kind as to give my some advice. I'm 31, I've been chasing the dream of being a commercial pilot for years, but due to finances and setbacks its been a slow process. I'm not interested in the jets, more the props and corporate flying. I am currently on Bristol Groundschools distance learning course but haven't studied for a while due to personal issues and a new job. Also my PPL has lapsed 2 years ago so I need to do the skills test again. I have 160 hours and a night rating. I'm also in a bit of debt. Slightly higher than the norm.

Should I slowly continue with my training and follow my passion while still working at my reasonable paid job and get into further debt with a CPL/IR?
Or should I just quit and settle for where I am. (Which doesn't make me happy!)

All advice gratefully received.

Thank you

[geordiejet]

That really is a huge question. I guess only you in the end can decide on the answer.

I am kind of in a similar boat - been at it for 3 years, got my CPL/IR and hoping to have my FIC in coming months - but finding funding this last part a little tricky! I'm trying to fly as and when I've got the cash, but one of my cleared credit cards is just begging to have some debt put on it ;-) I'm trying to resist.

My advice, is if you do continue, to just take it slowly. Other threads in here suggest any of us would be very lucky to secure work, so by the time you finish up, you might just time it right. The next year or so could be tough, so I would not get in to massive debts for training.

Slowly, but surely sounds like a good plan, and a good pilot always keeps his/her options open, so don't over commit :-)

All the best whatever you decide to do :ok:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Absolutely not. Stop. Give up for gods sake.

There is sod all chance of raising the funds and motivation to complete commercial training and even if you did a job would be a very long shot.

Flying is a disease. It destroys some people and ruins their lives. Some are lucky and either recover or conquer the beast and make a lot of money out of it. I suspect you will be in the former category if you are not careful.

Get an old motorbike or a horse or a small boat or something less expensive, less risky and more rewarding than a half hearted aviation ambition.

Seriously.

WWW

[Philpaz]

Oooh that made me chuckle, nothing like sitting on the fence....

If your already in debt then get it paid off and start saving. Wait for the market to recover and see how you feel then. Getting in more debt now is crazy imho.

Phil

[wbryce]

If aviation is your passion and your still a little bit undecided I would complete the exams, get your CPL and FI rating and instruct part time, this should give you a huge degree of satisfaction and enjoyment. Now you will need to remember that ATPL exams will lapse after X amount of months if you don't do your IR so its in your own interest to get the IR before the certificates become invalid for any future opportunity or decisions otherwise its the whole lot again.

[rons22]

I am in the same boat mate. Spent many £1000s to get to CPL/IR/MCC and not a chance of flying job. :ugh:
Now schools are telling me get FIC course, in other words "give us more money".
Flight instructors as I am sure everyone on this forum knows by now are on low incomes, and if weather conditions/economy are bad than no income at all.
Keep your PPL alive and fly couple of hours a year for enjoyment. Don't go into debts, i know this is extreme but had a mate who was ex-military pilot, spent all his money on license conversion, failed test and depression/debts made him take his life away. :sad:
As i said, this is extreme but can happen.
There are jobs in other industries where they will be happy to have you onboard, give you respect and pay you more money for less effort without having to have valid class 1 medical.
Once over 30, you are more likely to fail medicals, ageism is a big topic in airline industry too.
The best thing would be to get a flying horse. :ok:

[XX621]

...
Get an old motorbike or a horse or a small boat or something less expensive, less risky and more rewarding than a half hearted aviation ambition.

Err...motorbikes are considerably riskier than aeroplanes (not financially of course!). Small boats are boring. Horses are very very expensive and break easily.

Or do what I've done. Sell the motorbike and get a share in nice little 4 seater and fly anytime you want and only when you feel like it. Do the theory as and when, applying it to your leisure flying where applicable. Build up loads of P1 time, get a good "normal" job, keep one eye on the state of the industry, get to know people, make contacts, understand how pilot recruitment really works, start pushing out the boundaries of your flying, slow but safe progression without big bang financial risk. Just because you're not wearing a uniform and not flying heavy metal doesn't make you any less of a pilot. Do some glider towing maybe for a while. Progressively stir in the IR, the ME, the CPL...then one day you dream cake may well rise out of the cake tin!

Or perhaps part-time instruction?

Good luck anyway:ok:

[heli_port]

In the current economic climate i would say no - quit (yes one less wannabe to compete with :})

[Mikehotel152]

Hi Mike,

It depends on your particular Passion for Flying vs Hatred of your Current Job ratio and on whether your personal financial situation allows you to continue chasing the dream.

WWW has a point about the state of the industry, but no matter what happens with the economy, there will always be jobs for those who work very hard to improve their CVs, make contacts and exploit every opportunity they come across.

Chasing the dream is better than living the nightmare. :)

[bangitin]

mate, I'm 46, 180 hours, and currently trying to get good enough in a C206 for the CPL flight test. Struggling. So is a bloke who's a few years younger than me. All the young CPLs and instructors are scooting off to the regionals or cheap jets, or the younger instrucors are getting snapped up by the likes of Jetstar and Qantas. Good luck to 'em. I'm hoping for a CPL, a ride in the 206 with some backpackers into a little strip in the wilderness, and maybe an instructor rating if I can afford it down the track.

Hang in there. Who knows whats going to happen? Have a crack at what you love doing, but importantly, try and be debt free (or minimise debt) as you go. If that means a bit of weekend flying when you can afford it, so be it. Go get an aerobatic endorsement, that'll keep you happy!

Good luck and less crappy landings to us all. :ok:

[rons22]

In the current economic climate i would say no - quit (yes one less wannabe to compete with )

I'd say it is one less lamb to be slaugthered by flight schools.

[mikejwright]

Thanks for all your words of wisdom guys, its very interesting to hear everyones thoughts.
I think my main problem is listening to my heart and not my head!

[speedrestriction]

So you want to do air-taxi/corporate flying? The reality is that you are in debt, that you will incur further debt to get the blue book in hand and then will work for pittance whilst trying to get yourself into a position where the air taxi guys might consider employing you. Even then most corporate operators dont offer the greatest of salaries. Unless the market improves drastically (and oil becomes cheaper) over the coming years I would suggest keeping it as a hobby.

sr

[mustflywillfly]

Mike, are you able to take a sabbatical from your current job for a while? It might be that you cannot afford it, but if you can get round it one way or another without getting any further in debt, then a sabbatical may allow you to excercise your flying demons whilst keeping paid income in the background.

DO NOT say " :mad: it" when you are having another ****ty day and wrap your hand in in favour of flying. Get the PPL current again, best thing you will ever do, and take colleagues / friends flying. They will be only too happy to get some cheap flying in and you can split the cost.

I went throgh exactly the same "crisis" as you at 31, I am now 32 going on 33 and 4 months into a sabbatical. PPL and night done with ATPL exams in a couple of weeks. I know for a fact that I will have to go back to my job and instruct at weekends etc for a year or two before hopefully making the break and getting a TP job. I love flying but I am starting to ask myself whether being an airline jockey is really flying or more systems and safety management?

Good Luck and whatever you do kill the debt first before it kills you!

[balhambob]

Absolutely not. Stop. Give up for gods sake.

There is sod all chance of raising the funds and motivation to complete commercial training and even if you did a job would be a very long shot.

Flying is a disease. It destroys some people and ruins their lives. Some are lucky and either recover or conquer the beast and make a lot of money out of it. I suspect you will be in the former category if you are not careful.

Get an old motorbike or a horse or a small boat or something less expensive, less risky and more rewarding than a half hearted aviation ambition.

Seriously.

WWW





My advice would be to keep going with it. No one can predict the future and who knows what opportnities lie out there.

If you do pack it in you will prob spend the rest of your life wondering what if?

WWW - do you ever have anything positive to say? about anything? ever?

"Flying is a disease and ruins peoples lives" - Perhaps you had an unfortunate experience and Im sorry for that. But thats no excuse to tell everyone they should not bother with flight training because it does work out for alot of people.

[ConcernedIR]

It sounds like only your class rating has expired, and that your PPL may still be valid.

All you need to start the ATPL ground school is a valid ICAO PPL - nothing about a class rating mentioned! :ok:

[Rhodes13]

I will have to go back to my job and instruct at weekends etc for a year or two before hopefully making the break and getting a TP job

Mustflywillfly what happens if you never get to that position? You have to look at the worst case and say I will be a FI for the rest of my career. Will I be happy with that?

Unfortunately thats what it comes down to. Are you happy flying as an FI or do you want to only be a Airline Pilot. I would suggest that if its the latter and you've geared it all up to that then probably best to give it up and fly for fun.

I mean theres already another thread about a sad soul asking where to get an ATR job after speculating on a type rating and telling the world that he flew for free in the Dom Republic and that hes 37 years old and we now owe him a living. Thats the currenct reality and what people are up against if they continue.

Heed WWW comments. He offers sage advice

[Orvil]

Mike,

I know what your going through "been there, got the T-shirt etc".

I have read other peoples views on this thread and would like to add a further subject that you may have to consider if you continue.

It's more than likely that you may have to re-locate, even abroad, to get a good job with good money to justify the investment in yourself. You must ask yourself are you prepared to leave your friends/family/girlfriend/wife/partner etc ? To follow your dream?

If you have a good look on this forum, you will realise that the job ain't what it use to be. The pay now is very poor when you consider the lifestyle/responsibility/continuous training involved/medicals/ life expectancy (use to be 63 y.o).

I was listening to a petrol tank driver (on strike) on radio 4 that he was struggling on a basic of £35,000 plus OT which gave him £41000 per year. That's more than a Capt earns on a TP! look at www.ppjn.com .

I was offered a job last week at £55K outside aviation. Its not even a "profession" plus the lifestyle is "normal" and the management have a lot more respect for their employees than most airlines.

If I had to be honest about myself, I would not of undertook the training. I would of gone back to Uni and got myself a "profession". In fact I have given myself 6 months to get a job if unsuccessful I'm returning to University.

I have worked in aviation and have many pilot friends all of them say the best part of the job was actually doing the licence! Flying a SE and flying a A320 are completely different and to be honest very boring!

At the end of the day, your an Adult and have to make a your own decision.

Orvil

[lazy george]

In my humble opinion i advise such a decision can only be taken by what you want, not what you've been advised. If you want it and believe you can do it then you will suceed , no matter what some pissed up bloke says a few hundred mile away on the other end of a pc/laptop. Dont get built up with with hope on here or knocked down with a ****ty stick just go with your gut feeling. Do you believe in yourself? If yes just do it , concentrate on training and come on here for info NOT ADVICE. If no join the rest of people in knocking everyone else down and putting folk off....
Rant over and good luck

[chrisbl]

Trying to get others to make the decision for you is not the way to go.

The fact that you have posted here and the information you have supplied suggests that you have considerable doubts.

Follow your instinct not your heart - your heart may suggest you plug away at it and you rationalise a bad decision.

FWIW, I was in a similar position at 31 but decided to pursue another career with sufficient success that 20 years later I can afford without borrowing any money to become a part time pilot on my terms but continue with some bits of my other career on my terms as well.

This is really having the best of both worlds. The flying stays fun, the regular job stays fun and whatever happens with the economy I can ride it out flexing either way.

I have no aspiration to be hacking Vicky Pollard types around the sky going from one booze up to another, If I did, I would probably have been a bus or train driver. Its not my idea of a glamourous job. Lets face it who would want to have any contact with such passengers. A pile of freight has more charm.

[All Up Weight]

Mike

You say your debt is 'above the norm', so lets assume you could actually find a bank to lend you the funds (given the current credit crunch) to complete the CPL/IR/MCC, your living costs whilst training and funding the continuing repayments on your existing debt commitments. Have you actually calculated your financial position once all of this is completed? Don't forget the contingency costs for partial/failed CPL or IR skills tests and the necessary additional training/re-tests.

Now assume that having the licence/ratings, you can't find a job (very common for modular pilots). (I know quite a few folks who obtained the 'frozen' ATPL only to find no jobs and with no funds to go further. They have gone back to their old jobs and with the debt to repay from training could not afford to stay current let alone build hours.) Will you have the funds for an FI rating and would you be able to service your now sizeable debt whilst earning very little from full-time flying instruction?

I don't want to rain on your parade, only ask you to work through the financial calculations using a worst case scenario. Only by doing this can you decide if this is a risk which is worth taking.

[enicalyth]

None of us are qualified to advise. And that applies to gut feelings too, there are several degrees of tummyache. I'm not here to knock you or put you off or put you on come to that. Just to help you think clearly.

I think it is good to have another half to life besides flying to keep things in balance. For me that half is my wife, my kids and my home. Flying is the glue that has mostly kept it all together but I've changed direction several times yet my family has survived and we have not gone short.

Flying as you have discovered is not a guarantee of happiness and universal respect. It can feel like that at times but not all the time. Sure I have seen and done things I could not have otherwise done. But at work [before I retired] being able to do my job to the satisfaction of our customers, the cabin crew and all my other colleagues on the ground and in the air was what was important. If circumstances force you to shift direction do it with grace and aim for the same standards but playing a different game. It is about what you are not what you do. It isn't about aviation, single and alone, **** or bust. The chances are you'll end up single, alone, **** and bust.

When you make your decision I wish you every success and all the happiness you could wish for. If you ever feel the urge to sink a better beer than your current choice I am in Brussels for a while and Mrs "E" would be delighted to rustle up some grub and make you feel at home.

Best Rgds

The "E"

[SlingsbyT67M]

Why, why, why is Prune full of such a bunch of negative cry babies. If you have the dream and you think you can do it, the for f:mad: sake, go and try!!

The majority of people that seem to be on this forum are people that have failed. You certainly dont see anyone that has chased the dream and succeeded posting and telling you to give it up!!! I know plenty of commercial pilots who dont stop saying how much they love their lives and their jobs.

Suggestion, if you have tried and failed, please keep it to yourselves because your negaive s:mad: is starting to drive me insane. In fact sometimes it makes me want to top myself without even having attempted to try and get my first interview.

[JohnPits]

I agree completely SlingsbyT67M so many negative people on this site, they seem to think that everything should be handed to them on a plate.

Everyone seems to think its the end of the world if they don't become a pilot, if I don't make so what, I wont beat myself up about it.


P.S negative thoughts lead to negative actions,

[Sam-MAN]

Chase the dream dude :ok:

Sod what people say here, its irrelevant!

Try your bloody hardest to get what you want, you'll regret it if you dont!

Sam

[RB311]

I agree with sam Man... With a positive attitude and self belief you can accomplish even what certain people on here call the impossible....

I did... and am living the dream, loving it, and whatever others say on here, a bad day flying still beats a good day in the office. And i started out at quite a ripe vintage as well....

There seem to be predominately two types on this forum. Either those who have failed to get a job because they believe the airlines are too stupid to recognize their genius, or those who have got into the castle and want to pull up the drawbridge behind them, and fire arrows through slits to keep others away.

but there are others! Keep the faith.... World economies go up, as well as down.

[Rhodes13]

Lads im sorry but a positive attitude and dreams of flying for the big boys isnt going to pay off the bills.

The advice here isn't given by people who have failed (last time I checked I hadn't) its given by people who see the average wannabe who will stop at nothing to get the licence and then bitch that they are up to their eye balls in debt and now can't afford to live.

I love my job wouldn't change it for the world but you have to be realistic. We are about to enter a period of no to negative growth and the ensuing stopping of recruitment and/or loss of jobs.

Would you really want to a middle aged wannabe with high levels of debt and no way to stay current in a market geared up for guys with plenty of time?

Its all well and good saying live the dream but when the reality of the situation comes to smack you in between the eyes. Trying to repay bills and having spent 30k for a peice of paper that dream becomes a nightmare.

But hey you can live the dream, just buy the man some ray bans and a big watch!

No one can say don't train but be very very careful in that will you have access to work in the meantime to pay the bills and keep current/ build hours? If the answer to that is no I would be extremely wary of taking on even more debt than you already have. Remember the road to hell is paved with good intentions! :eek:

[G SXTY]

Always remember that this forum exists as a talking shop for people who want to get into the right hand seat of an airliner, but haven't got there yet. Therefore, and inevitably, you'll have a mixture of (a) those with no flying experience but loads of enthusiasm, (b) those in the various stages of training, who still have a dream but whose enthusiasm has possibly been dulled by experience and costs, and (c) those who have completed training, got the little blue book but for whatever reason have been unable to find a job, and are understandably negative. Always bear that in mind when seeking advice.

What you'll struggle to find on this forum are current airline pilots. That's because as soon as most people get their first job, wannabes' issues become secondary to their next LPC/OPC, keeping up with notacs and changes to SOPs, planning their next career move and staying abreast with crewroom gossip. I can personally think of at least a dozen names who used to post here but are now happily driving airliners, and who no longer post. At the same time, I reckon the number of current airline pilots who regularly post on 'wannabes' is around ten at most - and that includes the mods. Which is a shame, but quite understandable.

So to try and answer the original question. With the best will in the world, those advising; "go for it, 'tis better to try and fail than not try in the first place" are no doubt genuine, but probably speak from positions of little or no experience. Those advising you to stop are likely as not doing so because flying training and the search for a first job has been an unhappy experience.

I do not agree that flying is a 'disease'. Passion - yes, obsession - quite possibly, but there's nothing inherently destructive about flying as long as you keep your feet on the ground. I do know that getting from zero hours to an airline job is a bloody hard slog that some people enter into without doing enough homework. The demands of training can damage health and relationships as much as finances. It is perfectly normal to have doubts about your eventual success - more than once I came close to jacking it all in. Aged 35 I had my ATPLs in the bag, hours built, and a safe, undemanding, well paid office job in London. I decided to leave my job, borrow money for the CPL/IR & MCC and throw myself into full-time training because I faced a choice between following my dream (and risking it all) or playing safe and spending the rest of my 'career' in crushing boredom, ground down by the daily commute. In short, I rolled the dice. I got lucky - a job with a decent airline less than 3 months after finishing the IR. Now I'm happier than I've ever been in my life - I really struggle to articulate just how good the feeling is.

BUT - I know I've been lucky. During training I met people with just as much determination as me, some who'd sold houses to pay for training, some with rich families. To be brutally frank, some of them wouldn't make airline pilots as long as they've got a hole in their bum. Some guys just do not have the aptitude for this game, however much they want it, and they simply will not make it through airline selection - however good the job market.

So while I'd love to say; "follow your dream, it worked for me" I can't advise doing it without a cold, hard look at your chances of getting a job. Look beyond the next two or three years - you have plenty of time yet. Can you succeed in getting a job when the market picks up? Unfortunately the GAPAN tests are not suitable with your hours, but can you answer yes to these questions? Did you pass the PPL skills test first time with close to minimum hours? Can you pass all the ATPLs first time with a 90%+ average? Do you usually succeed at job interviews? The real tests come with CPL/IR training, but these will at least give you some pointers.

Personally, I'd concentrate on finishing the written exams and leave flying for the moment. If you do well at the ATPLs, seek out a friendly commercial instructor and ask him to fly with you and give you an honest assessment of your abilities. At least then you'll be in a position to decide whether to proceed based on evidence rather than feelings.

Hope that helps.

[Nashers]

i think the best way to put it is:

"hope for the best but expect the worst"