Dear oh dear - Oban crash from last year

[fernytickles]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/7449653.stm

Pilot of crash plane 'over limit'

The pilot and co-pilot of a fatal light aircraft crash near Oban had significant levels of alcohol in their blood, an official report has revealed.

John Smith, an Essex councillor, his wife Angela, and their 25-year-old daughter Jaqueline, were killed in the crash in April last year.

Mr Smith was piloting the plane while his daughter was acting as co-pilot.

The Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) said instrument failure and poor weather could also have contributed.

The privately-owned single engine Piper Cherokee crashed shortly after taking off from Oban's North Connel airfield on Easter Monday last year.

Poor visibility

The family had been returning home to Essex.

The wreckage of the light aircraft was found the next day on a hillside nine miles away.

The AAIB report said a pre-flight vaccuum pump failure would have knocked out a crucial flight instrument.

Mr Smith was also five times over the alcohol limit for flying, while his daughter was twice the limit.

They had been seen drinking at a local restaurant the night before.

Neither was qualified to fly in conditions of poor visibility which, the investigators say, might have helped them cope with the bad weather they experienced.

[scooter boy]

I am absolutely amazed at this one. Five times over the limit!!
Unbelieveable.

SB

[wsmempson]

What is the limit for flying? (and before any one pounces on me, I've always regarded 0% as my personal limitation...).

[S-Works]

20mg, car driving is 80mg

[fireflybob]

How tragic for their family and friends. RIP

[VictorGolf]

Frightening thought on how long it takes for alcohol to leave the blood stream. I fear I may have done the same thing unwittingly believing I would be ok. Zero it is from now onwards.

[Julian]

I was told by a police mate of mine that the morning after is when they catch all their DDs, not by sitting outside pubs waiting for them.

J.

[stillin1]

It always amazes me the lack of respect that so many give to flying:ugh:. Just another example of the Darwin theory in action, such a criminal shame that innocents have to pay the price too! Flying is demanding enough sober (thats one of the features that makes it so much fun). Why push yer luck:sad:?

[fireflybob]

Frightening thought on how long it takes for alcohol to leave the blood stream. I fear I may have done the same thing unwittingly believing I would be ok. Zero it is from now onwards.

Maybe there needs to be more education on this aspect with respect to flying. Is this covered in human factors and limitations training for the PPL, am not sure.

In a previous job when I went to work for the railway we were given comprehensive information concerning how long it took for alcohol to dissipate from the body.

[DavidHoul52]

According to the report the vacuum pump failed with the consequence that the AI would have given wrong readings. Could the pilots have not then referred to the Turn Coordinator and HSI both of which are electically driven and so would have been unaffected by the vacuum pump failure?

Pardon me, I'm just a stude.:sad:

[piesupper]

Just some questions that this case may throw up

What powers do Scottish police forces have to go airside and breathalyse a pilot before flying? Its not a public road as such.
Also how do you prove that the person suspected of drinking is actually going to commit aviation? Keys in the ignition is usually good enough to pin a driver, however for private flying, the circumstances would be different.
A squad of Highland Constabulary's finest (hah!) breathalysing pilots at Glenforsa on a sunny weekend afternoon for example may be regarded as heavy-handed but following this case others may take a different view.

[dont overfil]

David.
The problem is knowing the vac pump has failed. Meanwhile the unfortunate pilot is following a topling horizon. He may only have seconds to react.
Piesupper.
That's totally inappropriate.
DO

[piesupper]

DavidHoul52 -- Partial Panel is challenging for many sober pilots, presumably out of the question for someone as pissed as this prat was.

Quertyplop -- harsh but true.

[fireflybob]

What powers do Scottish police forces have to go airside and breathalyse a pilot before flying? Its not a public road as such.
Also how do you prove that the person suspected of drinking is actually going to commit aviation? Keys in the ignition is usually good enough to pin a driver, however for private flying, the circumstances would be different.
A squad of Highland Constabulary's finest (hah!) breathalysing pilots at Glenforsa on a sunny weekend afternoon for example may be regarded as heavy-handed but following this case others may take a different view.

I believe the law is that the police have to have grounds to suspect that an offence is being commited - in other words, random checking is not within the Act.

I do NOT think the boys in blue arriving at the local airfield for a mass breathalyser is the way to go. 99% of pilots have the common sense to know that alcohol and flying don't mix too well.

Also you have to recognise that you have a vacuum pump failure. Having had one myself the first thing I noticed was unusual indications from the AH and then when I checked the suction it was down at zero.

By the way, I think the correct description is limited panel rather than partial panel.

[Oldpilot55]

There is also some doubt as to the method of identifying alcohol in a deceased person's body. Its not as clear cut as the AAIB report states. Have a look at the forum on the other side.

[Rod1]

“99% of pilots have the common sense to know that alcohol and flying don't mix too well.”

I agree with this, but most pilots think 8 hours bottle to throttle is ok. Some associates of mine were commenting about the amount they had drunk the night before (with pictures) and flew back the following morning. When I commented on it I got a confused, we felt fine. My guess is they were well over the limit but got away with it. I would not be surprised if the same was true in this case, but the failure caught them out.:sad:

Rod1

[Glenforsa Flyer]

Piesupper,

Are you implying that pilots fly into Glenforsa, drink alcohol, and then fly away pissed?

GF

[dont overfil]

GF
I'd hate to pay all that money and still be sober!
DO

[DB6]

What makes anyone think that being over the (very low) alcohol limit was the reason for losing control in IMC with a failed vacuum pump and no IMC rating?

[fireflybob]

DB6 Good point but would excess alcohol in one's system be inclined to obscure good judgement and decide to embark on the flight in the first place? The question we must ask is was this pilot aware that he was (allegedly) over the limit after imbibing the night before?

[DX Wombat]

A quick rule of thumb for processing of alcohol by the liver is ONE unit per hour so if you drink five units it will take five hours to clear, ten units take ten hours etc. Drink twelve units ten hours before you fly and you are highly likely to be over the limit. If you work on this theory and realise you might be over the limit then WAIT! Better to arrive late at your destination than need SAR to come and pick up the pieces.
Beware the variation in the size of glasses of wine when calculating the amount of alcohol actually consumed. See here (http://www.nhsdirect.nhs.uk/articles/article.aspx?articleId=2530) and also here. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4552668.stm)One UK unit contains eight grams of pure alcohol.

One unit of alcohol is about equal to half a pint of ordinary strength beer or a small pub measure of spirits.
(from the BBC article)

[piesupper]

Glenforsa Flyer:
Are you implying that pilots fly into Glenforsa, drink alcohol, and then fly away pissed?

No as a general rule I would not assert that However it would be a brave chap who could say it _never_ happened and given the publicity that will come out of this case, I would not be surprised if others thought that some pilots might be drinking and flying.

I choose Glenforsa as an example of a "pub with a runway" - one of the main reasons for going there is to enjoy the excellent hospitality - we just need to be certain that its not the crew who are thoroughly enjoying the hospitality IYKWIM

And given a hot sunny day at Glenforsa, its a chap of strong character who can refuse a cool pint. Over the years there will be those who's willpower is not as strong as the rest. McPlod is now very motivated to catch these guys out, its a shame they hadnt stopped that idiot Smith. I see my earlier comments have been removed, unfairly I believe, the guy was a complete idiot, conservative councillor or not.
How much do you have to drink to be 5 times the limit the morning after?
And what breathtaking arrogance it displays thinking you are competent to fly after that. There can have been no doubt in his mind that he was unfit to fly but he carried on regardless.

Its a long long way from someone who might be tempted to have a cool one on a hot afternoon. Its the guy having the cool one (wrong though it undoubtedly is) who will be hassled now as a result. Well now you know who to blame, not Highland Constabulary but Conservative councillor John Smith from Essex, now deceased, having taken his family with him.

[fireflybob]

And given a hot sunny day at Glenforsa, its a chap of strong character who can refuse a cool pint

Why? What's wrong with a mineral water. J20 or Cola? Are you implying that having a "cool pint" and going flying is acceptable?

[piesupper]

No, not at all -- but I recognise the temptations.

My own limit for flying is 0%

[Glenforsa Flyer]

Just for the record.

I have been running the Glenforsa Hotel for 5 years now, and I do not recall that I have had any occasion for concern re pilots drinking and flying.

Councillor Smith and his very nice family were drinking coffee in the hotel the day previous to this tragic accident.

GF

[UV]

And will those who shouted "CFIT", within 48 hours of the accident,
realise the uselessness of their speculation?
I doubt it.
UV
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=271495&highlight=oban

[TALLOWAY]

piesupper

Who made you judge and jury ? ..... using only an AAIB report with an alcohol level testing technique which is, at best, open to debate, as your sole piece of evidence to denigrate the deceased as being three sheets to the wind.

I am glad your previous comments were removed as they made you look like a rabid idiot.

The pilot(s) might have been technically over the low limit (although some experts believe the method used is not robust enough to confirm that) but what definitely killed them was their entry in to weather conditions for which they were not qualified, followed by the vacuum pump failure which gave them absolutely no chance of survival.

This act, which might have been in character by all accounts, sealed their fate. I doubt it was because they were too pissed to see the instruments, as the alcohol levels in the AAIB report might indicate.

As for comments about Glenforsa, what a lot of rubbish. I, like many others on here, have flown there many times. I have never seen a pilot have an alcoholic drink to quench their thirst. I know also that Brendan, Alison, and the staff there are very sociable and talk to their customers about where they came from, where they are going to, what they are flying, etc, etc. And I bet they would have a quiet word with any pilot looking for a beer if they were going flying straight after their visit. A 'cool one' as you put it, is not the norm in the pilots I have seen using Glenforsa. Are you really a qualified pilot ?? :rolleyes:

[Gordon17]

OldPilot55

Could you tell me where to look for the other forum you refer to please?

[DX Wombat]

Could you tell me where to look for the other forum you refer to please? He probably means this thread on Flyer Forums (http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=45017)

[piesupper]

Talloway and Glenforsa Flyer - I too have never seen any pilot drinking and flying at Glenforsa ( its a small sample - been there 3 times) - I recognise the temptations and my fear is that Highland Constabulary may decide to start breathalysing flyers because they too will recognise the temptations. I picked the example of Glenforsa (and berginning to wish I hadn't) as an example of a "pub with a runway" It would be the perfect place for them to start hassling people. I don't want to see that happen on Mull or anywhere else.
I apologise unreservedly if I gave the impression that drinking and flying was the norm or even an occasional occurrence at Glenforsa. Unfortunately now, others may think differently, especially those with checkit bunnets and various local government types who may not hold GA as dear as we might wish. There is no shortage of over-ambitious police or petty local govt officials around Argyll.

The "uncertainty" in the AAIB method of determining alcohol in a body was derided. Its funny how the AAIB are generally held up to be good guys but on this occaision they are dead wrong? Any methodology that is in use by an organisation like the AAIB is unlikely to give errors so great that it mistakes minimal residue from a couple of pints the night before with a verdict of "five times the driving limit". It _might_ be possible to argue away the case for someone who was boderline, 5xlimit, I don't think so. Someone please direct me to any evidence which calls into question the AAIB methodology on this matter

The eejit got pissed, demonstrated criminal arrogance in deciding to fly and killed his family in an avoidable accident. Luckily he didn't take out anyone else on the ground.

[Islander2]

a verdict of "five times the driving limit"
piesupper, the AAIB report makes no such verdict. Did you even bother to read it before embarking on your mudslinging?

The alcohol level attributed to the pilot was actually 1.24 times the UK driving limit.

For the avoidance of doubt, in making this post I am not in the slightest seeking to condone drinking and flying. It's simply that I also don't condone people making outrageously exaggerated claims against someone who isn't around to defend themselves.

[gasax]

There is a lot of benefit in doing some reading and thinking before letting go with both barrels - particularly when you're pointing in the wrong direction.

The debate on the Flyer thread is about 'the good guys' to use piesupper's terminology using a very non-standard mathod of assessing blood alcohol content - without saying as much.

Reading between the lines I suspect the bodies were in a pretty poor state and that was what lead to this methodolgy being used. The results lead to nitwits declaring the pilots 'drunk'.

I certainly think that completely clouds the real causes of the accident and that the AAIB should have included a warning over the uncertainty of the blood alcohol readings - in the same way that they did for the radar positioning and whether the auto pilot was engaged.

[Mikehotel152]

I was on a Stag Trip last weekend and a we were all breathlysed before Indoor Karting. Despite drinking a heck of a lot of units during an all-day drinking session the day before, only 1 of us was over the limit at lunchtime.

I'm not condoning drinking and flying - in fact I won't have more than a pint the night before and nothing on the day itself no matter what the temptation - but my point is that the guy who was over the limit that afternoon was still massively over the limit, whereas most of us had a nil alcohol reading. It just shows how there may be guidelines yet out bodies have siginificantly different metabolisms. It's therefore sensible to err on the side of caution.

[Rod1]

I wonder if the vacuum failure and its likely effect on this flight indicates that the move to all electric aircraft and glass panels is a step towards safety. If the aircraft had a G1000 with perspective it would have been very much less likely to have crashed, or am I being too pro glass?

Rod1

[DB6]

A lot of people wading in, condemning this chap for flying while pissed.
If I understand the AAIB report correctly: He did not have a current medical; he was on the radio during the flight; he is referred to in the report as the commander merely for convenience; his daughter, also a pilot, did have a current medical and was not on the radio, she was only just over the FLYING alcohol limit (NOT driving). Now I don't know about you folks, but if I'm flying with another pilot then I'm flying, they're on the radio and vice-versa. I may be misreading it but I would have thought the daughter was the commander - not massively pissed at all. Furthermore the vacuum pump which drove the AI had failed. Have you ever tried to ignore a toppling AI? I don't mean covered it up, partial panel training style? Almost impossible, certainly in the limited time available to this crew, and that's if they had established that it had in fact failed. On top of all that the autopilot, if in use, was slaved to the failed, toppling AI. Think you could have got out of that, stone cold sober?
I would hazard a guess that alcohol had bugger all to do with it, apart from possibly clouding judgements. Remember we are talking here about the FLYING alcohol limit, not driving. I would guess that the level of alcohol found in the daughter would have little or no effect on most people. It's bad enough when the homunculi in the press crap on about drunken flying without pilots jumping to the same conclusions.

[Fg Off Max Stout]

Rod1,

Complete electrical failures are not unknown either! The ideal situation, as on most light aircraft, is to have some flight instruments suction driven and some electrically driven. A pilot with limited/partial panel training should therefore be able to recover the aircraft safely after a failure of one of these systems. Putting all your eggs in one basket is never a good idea!

A PPL pilot without IMC/IR training will have the odds stacked against them if they find themselves in IMC. Add to that a slowly toppling AI (extremely disorientating especially before the failure has been identified) and subsequent limited panel flying, the difficulty level ramps up. Try doing all that with some alcohol on board, which even in small concentrations affects the vestibular apparatus of the inner ears, promoting disorientation and the leans, and you are asking for trouble. (You don't need to be so drunk that alcohol affects your judgement and concentration to be in trouble - small concs will mess with your inner ears for days).

Clearly an accident with several contributory factors, alcohol being just one. The flying alcohol limited is very low - it is very easy to be on the wrong side of that limit. (5 times over that limit, if true, is quite another story though).

[Rod1]

“Complete electrical failures are not unknown either!”

I was under the impression that certified IFR glass panel installations had battery backup so a general electrical failure would not impact the displays at all? Most of the modern aircraft have gone all electric. I would assume that a certified glass installation would be more robust than a vac pump?

In my home built the battery backup would keep the glass HIS and engine monitor operating for about 4 hours, entirely independent of the aircraft battery. Obviously my machine is not cleared for IFR. Perhaps the old Vac pump has become a bit of a liability for IFR work now glass has come along?

If the pilot of this aircraft has a nice big screen displaying an image of the surrounding geology and which way up he/she was it would be much more intuitive and less likely you would “loose it”? I have never flown behind a certified system like a G1000 with all the latest “perspective” imagery. I would be very interested in the comments from anybody who has.

Rod1

[dont overfil]

DB6
What a sensible and reasoned post.
Does the report state who sat where? That could have made the job even harder.

[Supersport]

Fg_Off_Max_Stout said:
Clearly an accident with several contributory factors, alcohol being just one. The flying alcohol limited is very low - it is very easy to be on the wrong side of that limit. (5 times over that limit, if true, is quite another story though)

I suspect that Alcohol had very little to do with this incident, but obviously the very fact that is was present cannot be disregarded. I think that it could be terribly easy for any pilot to go flying and unknowingly be over the legal limit for flying. Remember, this guy was apparently "5 times" over the limit for flying which sounds unbelievably negligent on his part, but in reality maybe it isn't.

I mean this amount would have only just put him over the limit for driving and I bet there are very few people posting on here that haven't 'pushed their luck' a little when it comes to alcohol and driving. How many times have you been sat in the pub and said... "oh go on then, I'll have a half, it'll be ok."

I think it is very dangerous for pilots to use the "it takes 1 hour for your liver to process 1 unit of alcohol" rule. Everyone is different and therefore it could take more time for some and less time for others. The rule I follow is 0%. If I am flying I will not drink any alcohol at all for atleast 24 hours (mostly more) leading up to any flight, it just isn't worth it.

This is proven here, where some type of terrible vac pump or electrical failiure whilst in IMC, led to the demise of several people. But instead of the pilot being remembered for his achievments in life and being the victim of a tragic accident like he possibly should be, because of having a few drinks the night before he flew, he'll mostly be remembered (especially by the public) as the negligent p*ssed prat of a pilot, whilst 5 times over the limit killed himself and his family when he flew his aircraft into the ground.

Sad, very sad.

RIP

[Fuji Abound]

I was under the impression that certified IFR glass panel installations had battery backup so a general electrical failure would not impact the displays at all?

I think you may find that for many half an hour on the backup battery is all you will get and on some you may also find the engine stops after that as well.

A descent in IMC with a magnetic compass, AI and ASI is always going to get your attention, particularly if the cloud is near the deck and you forgot to put the hand held GPS in the lfight bag.

[dont overfil]

The two glass cockpit aircraft I have flown both had backup vacuum horizon. Also ASI & altimeter.
The engine doesn't stop when the battery goes flat.
The AC were C182 and DA40

[Fg Off Max Stout]

Supersport,

I mean this amount would have only just put him over the limit for driving and I bet there are very few people posting on here that haven't 'pushed their luck' a little when it comes to alcohol and driving.

Perhaps, but partial panel instrument flying is rather a more demanding skill set (especially when you are not IR/IMC rated:eek:) than driving your car back from the pub. The fact that someone is legal-ish to drive doesn't mean that they are OK to go flying - especially in potentially marginal weather.

[gasax]

To answer Rod1s point look at the features of the Porsche powered Mooney. One of the many reasons it did not do well was the complete duplication of the electrical system. That was done to meet the FAR requirements if there is no vacuum system. So multiple alternators, buses, batteries and flight instruments. A lot of weight to cart around and obviously a complex aircraft for your average aero engineer to maintain and understand.

So no, the average aircraft's safety is not much improved by going electric. Going solid state electronic - probably but we are still along way from that for certified equipment. (Corrected to add for certified equipment that people who work for wages can afford!)

[Supersport]

Fg_Off_Max_Stout,

The fact that someone is legal-ish to drive doesn't mean that they are OK to go flying - especially in potentially marginal weather.

I couldn't agree more, my point was, that if/when we 'push our luck' with alcohol and driving and think we 'feel sober', which I am sure most can admit to doing at one time or another, we would effectively be 4+ times over the limit for flying, yet feel 'OK'.

This is why I feel it is stupidly easy for someone to unknowingly fly whilst over the legal limit. With the limit being so small it really wouldn't take much booze to tip the scales in the wrong direction ( :} a cap full of Listerine in the morning before you fly might even do some damage :8... or would that just effect a breath test :bored:?).

[Fuji Abound]

These items of equipment can be supplied with power by the
battery for at least 30 minutes. Economical use, in particular
of the Pitot heating, and switching off equipment that is not
needed extends the time during which the other equipment
remains available. During the 30 minutes period, the airplane
must be landed at a suitable airfield.
For cases in which the battery capacity is not sufficient to
reach a suitable airfield, an emergency battery is installed in
the IFR model, serving as an additional back-up system for
the attitude gyro (artificial horizon) and flood light. This battery
is switched on with the Emergency Switch. It lasts for 1 hour
and 30 minutes when the flood light is switched on.

The engine doesn't stop when the battery goes flat.

I wonder what you have in mind keeps the FADEC computers alive when the power runs out?

Of course the FM also assumes the batery is healthy.

[dont overfil]

Certainly no fadec on C182, and I don't think the (avgas) DA40 has it.
DO

[Fuji Abound]

Fair enough - I did not realise you were referring to the DA40 without the tdi. Some one told me recently there are only a couple of those on the UK register but I have no idea whether that is so.

[DX Wombat]

I did not realise you were referring to the DA40 without the tdi. Some one told me recently there are only a couple of those on the UK register but I have no idea whether that is so.According to G-INFO out of 60 DA40s on the register 55 are DA40TDis. It is a lovely aircraft to fly, it's just a shame about Thielert.