Will you shut down?

[wingtip777]

At some busy airports, we might be instructed to hold at the holding point of a runway for more than 30mins! (it happened to me in deed.) will you shut down engine(s) there then start again just before new slot time? without any groud stuff.

thanks!

[PENKO]

That depends on your SOP!
Mine says yes, in the case of remote holding..

[BOAC]

BA have been doing it for years, shutting down both on a 737 for example. No groundcrew required for restart.

[SNS3Guppy]

Depends. If you're holding at an intersection and you'll be first out, you could. If you're in the congo line and 40th in sequence, then you still need to taxi. We shut down two engines and keep two running if it's a long delay, but we try hard to delay starting until we have the best opportunity to make a run for it, either with a slot time, or a lull in the departures.

[cebo1]

What other airlines do this???

[boredcounter]

But was that not for ATC slots? BA franchise carrier at the time and yes, push and hold for a remote stand to prove the airline ready on time. After X mins if slot still the same, crew to consider APU start and engine shut down. That was in the 90's with gas at bargain basement prices to today. Downside, stuck and oh so tech delay if one should not fire up or APU fail..............Still that was just a tug driver towing it back with ATC not happy.

So much more at stake now with the price of gas, but shut down on the active? From an Ops guys humble pov errrrrrrrrrrrrrm maybe not..........

Bored

[Ashling]

Yes I would shut one down.

We push to remote hold for slots and keep the engines shut down and then start them without groundcrew supervision so I don't see the big drama myself. If I was going to shutdown 2 and be immobile then I would chat to ATC first just to make sure it didn't cause them any hassle.

A while back we were number 3 in a queue to get airborne when a landing aircraft burst a tyre and closed the runway for 1/2 hour or so. We first shut down one then with ATC oermission shut down the second. Everyone else had to return to stand. ATC gave us 5 mins warning of our departure as we had asked them to and we got away with minimum delay and without the need to fight for a bowser back on stand.

[linedriva]

Shut both down at JFK the other night. ATC had stopped all departures due to staff shortages (his words). There were about 30 of us in the queue. Most had shut down. From pushback to departure was over two hours.

[RAT 5]

Same at JFK. B767 flying to Europe; CAT 3 airfield, TAF CAVOK, minimum fuel. Contingency was >30mins + long diversion. Number 45 in taxi queue. You work it out. 90 mins taxi was more than 1000kgs = 15mins flying. Shut one down for SE taxi. If not then we would have departed less than plog even after changing to closer diversion.

Anyone shut down an engine to extend holding time? e.g island holding or unexpected delay. FF with one off is less than all running.

[411A]

Anyone shut down an engine to extend holding time? e.g island holding or unexpected delay. FF with one off is less than all running

IF you refer to shut one down while airbourne, I expect the relevant regulatory authority would have a say, and the answer might not be to your liking.
Years ago, DanAir requested enroute shutdown of one on the Comet 4, to save fuel, and the ARB (as it was, then, now CAA) replied with a definite NO.

[BOAC]

Standard practice (airborne) in my military experience, but a bit frightening for pussy cats like 411A:}

[wingtip777]

First it is not in my SOP. but also SOP doesn't say "can't". so i heard some of my colleagues are doing this now.
there are two problem should be concerned i guess. first without groudcrew we will not be advised in case of a engine pipe fire; second ,in winter if we just start a coud engine then imediately go for take off power, will that be easy to cause engine failure?......discuss......

[gr8shandini]

I know this is a completely uneducated question from someone who only flies airlines as a pax, but I've always wondered why ATC clears folks to taxi if the know they can't accommodate a timely takeoff (the example of the closed runway due to a burst tire excepted, of course)?

As a customer, I'd much rather wait at the gate knowing that when you get a pushback it'll be a real go than sit out on a taxiway for several hours.

[Mat Sabo]

Did shut down one on several occasion but company SOPs are silent on this. For some it seems to be a no no as there are no ground crew or fire tender around for the restart.....what are your regulations wrt that?

[BOAC]

but I've always wondered why ATC clears folks to taxi if the know they can't accommodate a timely takeoff - its because the airline request it, to make their on-time departures look better rather than sit at the gate and show 'a delay'.

[gr8shandini]

- its because the airline request it, to make their on-time departures look better rather than sit at the gate and show 'a delay'


I kind of figured that was the case. But I'm sure it's only a matter of time before someone loses it and decides to pop an exit hatch and escape his "captors." Once I spent 3 hours on the ground at DFW with no A/C and I can tell you that it sure crossed my mind. Luckily I was still sane enough to think of what a royal mess that would have caused and how long I would probably have spent in jail.

[Rwy in Sight]

why ATC clears folks to taxi if the know they can't accommodate a timely takeoff (the example of the closed runway due to a burst tire excepted, of course)?


Does have to do with use of the gate/stand by incoming planes?

Rwy in Sight

[rewfly]

Just visit JFK, happends every night :ugh:

[oceancrosser]

We taxi on one engine outbound if taxying expected 20 mins or more, and shut-down one engine inbound after 3 min cooling time after leaving rwy. Shut-down one (or both engines if we can stay put) with any extended ground-delay (waiting for a gate etc).

[rewfly]

I know this is a completely uneducated question from someone who only flies airlines as a pax, but I've always wondered why ATC clears folks to taxi if the know they can't accommodate a timely takeoff

Not to mention another plane may need the gate, or the ground crew need to attend other aircraft. Also at very busy airports such as JFK have a restriction on departures per hour, meaning that you could possibly lose your takeoff slot.

[wingtip777]

oceancrosser
Is that your sop or just everyone does so? thanks

[SNS3Guppy]

But I'm sure it's only a matter of time before someone loses it and decides to pop an exit hatch and escape his "captors." Once I spent 3 hours on the ground at DFW with no A/C and I can tell you that it sure crossed my mind. Luckily I was still sane enough to think of what a royal mess that would have caused and how long I would probably have spent in jail.


You can be fairly well assured of spending time in jail in a case like that. A passenger who has paid to be there may have a very hard time making the case that he or she is a "captive." Further, creating such a potential emergency, enciting panic, and the possibility of someone going out a door and into an engine or becomeing hurt or killed in any number of ways could put one in prison not just for a short term, but for a lifetime. In fact, simply mentioning such an idea, even jokingly, would warrant removal from the aircraft and possible arrest.

Sitting tight during delays isn't much fun. It's no fun for the crew any more than the passengers. Take a good book, close your eyes and sleep, wear an ipod, or do something to occupy yourself.

Lack of air circulation should be an issue. If the delays have been long enough to warrant a shutdown, then APU air should be more than sufficient to run at least one air conditioning pack on the ground.

[con-pilot]

For corporate operators at Teterboro N.J. (KTEB), the primary corporate airport for New York City, it is very common to have aircraft sitting on the taxiways and ramps with engines shut down.

Having delays of over an hour is not uncommon at all. It all starts when you call for your ATC clearance, which can take up to three or four calls before clearance delivery answers. Then when they finally answer you they will tell you to call back at a certain time. Then at the appropriate time you may or may not receive your clearance, which is usually not the flight plan you filed. Then you are directed to call Flow Control to be issued an engine start time. Then the real fun begins.

You start your engines and call ground to taxi, ground calls back and tells you to contact clearance delivery again. You call clearance and they give you an entire reroute and tell you to recontact Flow Control for a new engine start time. There is no reason to tell them that you have already started engines at the last start time, they don't care. So, you call Flow Control and if you're lucky, really lucky they will tell you to start engines now and call ground. Usually, however, you will be given a start time from anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour away. If it is the latter you shut the engines down, the first time for this departure.

Okay, the second start time comes up, but this time you don't start the engines, you just call ground for taxi instructions. Of course when you try and outsmart the system you get caught, ground calls right back and says to follow the aircraft that is coming up the taxiway behind you to the active runway. Oops. Now you're in a mad rush to get the minimum number of engines started to taxi as fast as you can. As you are madly rushing to get the engine/s started you hear ground tell somebody else to follow you. As this would be very difficult for the other aircraft to follow you because you are still sitting on the ramp this will sometimes irritate ground control, well actually all the time. Now you must come up with something very clever to explain why you are not ready to taxi, like the coffee is not hot, the chocks were not removed, a passenger had to run back inside to get their briefcase, etc. However, no matter how creative you are, at this point you are usually screwed. The dreaded words of, "Cancel taxi instructions and contact Flow Control" is heard. Yeah, you're screwed.

However, lets us say that you do get the engines started in time and you taxi out to the holding point. As the holding point comes into view you start counting the number of aircraft sitting in the holding area. On a day as the one I'm relating there will usually be about 10 aircraft there. Now what occurs is what I call the holding area/point dance. As you join the back of the line you get as close to the grass as you can and then turn as tight as you can toward the taxiway, the first aircraft in line departs, then everyone in line turns back toward the grass, then back to toward the taxiway. This is repeated until you are number one. If you have my usual luck this is when the tower announces that New York TRACON has shut down all departures. How long you ask, they reply they really don't know, so you tell them that you shutting down your engines, tower tells that is fine and that they well call in time for you to start your engines. So you shut down your engines for the second or third time.

Now of course if you don't care about cost, or you have excess fuel you can leave the engines running all the time. However, I have heard more than on one occasion of people having to go back to the ramp for more fuel, so be careful.

In case you have not figured it out yet, I hate going to Teterboro.

[gr8shandini]

Guppy,

No doubt there would be jail time involved, but I'm pretty sure that when most people buy a ticket for a 2 hour flight, they're not expecting to spend 3 on the ground. And that's not even close to some of the worst cases on record.

I don't think I would have minded as much if I was comfortable, though. One pack might keep the flight deck cool with outside temps around 104F, but it wasn't cutting it for the cabin. And the absolute worst part was the fact that the flight attendants wouldn't provide any water as the had to "save it for the beverage service." I'd understand if I was asking for a beer or a coke, but water's kind of essential for life.

But hey, you guys probably hear enough bitching from the back when you're at work. Carry on.

[rewfly]

con-pilot, thanks for that. Never knew TEB was so bad.

[Dream Land]

No doubt there would be jail time involved, but I'm pretty sure that when most people buy a ticket for a 2 hour flight, they're not expecting to spend 3 on the ground. And that's not even close to some of the worst cases on record. Had a 5 1/2 hour wait in the deice line in Minneapolis after an ice storm, no passengers wanted off and were all happy when they finally arrived in Orlando. :ok:

[FlightDirector7]

Due to regulatory restrictions, we don't have anything regarding shutting engines for departure, due ofcourse to the fact that you need ground fire cart incase you get a tail pipe fire. However, it is recommended by our "airline" that we take initiatives to preserve fuel, and therefore shut one engine for taxi-in. Nothing mentioned by the regulatory authority for taxi-in (have to check this one up). At New Delhi airport we've ended up burning 700 kgs sitting idle.

[oceancrosser]

Wingtip777, its our SOP now.