JAA-PPL then Hour building in the USA

[Xorthis]

I'm an ATPL wannabe right at the start of the training and looking to achieve my ATPL by the modular route (I wish I could afford integrated but I don't have enough equity on my house and there's no mummy/daddy to fall back on! :}).

I am looking to complete the PPL+NR then hour build to the required 150 hours in one fell swoop in August/September months by doing one of the intensive courses in America. I have identified a short-list of FTOs that I'm interested in and have sent emails and made some calls to get an idea of what they can offer.

One issue that one FTO has mentioned is that for hour building once I complete the JAA-PPL I'll have to get an instructor to sign off each flight which will cause dispatch delays and restrict my flying to approved airfields. I'll essentially be flying on the instructor's licence.

As a way round this, the FTO suggested that I complete the FAA-PPL to enable myself to fly unrestricted in the US then convert it to a JAA-PPL once I get to 100 hours (Meaning I also skip some of the JAA PPL exams!). I wanted to ask the wise (and not to wise ;)) people here for their opinion on this.

I am very cautious about the FAA>JAA route however as I plan to fly ultimately in the UK and Europe, so basing my initial training on the FAA PPL and rules seems like a bad idea that could look bad on my CV and also set me up poorly to continue my training through the ATPL exams and then CPL/IR.

So a couple of questions:
1) Is there any other way for hour building in the US on a JAA-PPL that doesn't mean waiting 90 days for licence approval or flying with an instructor's signiture.
2) Am I right in thinking that the FAA>JAA route is a poor idea considering I wish to obtain an ATPL and fly in England in the long run.

Finally does anyone have strong opinions one way or another on training with Anglo-American Aviation in San Diego? :)

Thanks in advance! :)

[EIPCW]

You will be able to do the JAA PPL with Anglo, then do 100hrs hour building once you receive PPL from the CAA. You will also need an FAA PPL to fly solo in the states but this should not take the 90 days as mentioned. The only delay you will have between gaining PPL and hour building is how long it takes the CAA to issue you with your PPL and how long it takes them to forward info on to the FAA so they can issue you with an FAA PPL.

The FAA are very efficient and once all paperwork is passed onto them all it takes is a day trip to any of their many offices throughout the states and you will be issued with a temporary 90 day FAA PPL in which you can build your hours while your licence is been processed.

As for Anglo American Aviation there are a few threads on this site which will give you the pros and cons if you do the search. I did my PPL there and have no regrets, i am going back there in 2 weeks to do a bit of hour building. Amazing place fly, trip to Vegas is in order however will be pretty hot crossing through the desert at this time of year so will be keeping a/c at 10,000ft :)

[Keygrip]

If your asking for opinions on the whole plan....then you shouldn't do either.

"Hour building" to the 150 hour mark immediately after the PPL, and before the ground school, is just crazy.

I'm sure you'll go ahead with it though - so FAA PPL, not JAA.

[Xorthis]

Thanks for the replies.

Key, I have to ask, why do you suggest that doing the hour building right after the PPL is a bad idea? It's what I have been recommended to do by Cabair who I am currently training with in the UK and gives me the option of starting the CPL right after completing the ATPLs (check out module 1 for their pathfinder training). All input is welcome, but some suggestions to alternatives or how I can improve my plan would be more useful. I'm still trying to discover all options open to me before money changes hands :ok:


I've considered travelling out there to complete the PPL, maybe do 25 hours extra just to see the sights, then coming back and getting on with the GS. After that going back out there after to finish the hour building then coming back for the CPL which gives me the time to validate my JAA-PPL with the FAA. Do you think that would be a better advised route? The main advantage I can see with this is it would enable me to get in a lot of practice right before starting the CPL and shaking off the lack of flying during Ground School (I will be keeping current however). The only disadvantage I can see is that it would cost me two plane tickets instead of one ;)

Epicw, this is the first I have heard of a temporary PPL issued while they process my validation application, could you give any more info on this? Not having to do a conversion would be a great help and save some money :)

[IRISHPILOT]

I have to agree with Keygrip: Do the hour building when getting ready for the CPL.

Also, the JAA PPL will not even show on your CV when you apply to airlines because you will loose it upon gaining the CPL. The FAA PPL is yours to keep. - If you ever apply to an airline that flies beyond your little island, you will see that they do not object to international experience (some even require this). Some UK and European airlines even fly across the pond themselves :eek:

If you do decide on a more sensible route, you will do an FAA PPL, then a few hours over there to get the required Xcountries and night flights, etc out of your way that are needed for the JAA CPL. Remember that you do not need a night qualification with this route and make sure you get the FAA RT licence (no test, only a fee. All info on here).

Don't listen to those selling you services, but to those who have done this. And of course you do not need to be signed off for any flight you are licencensed to do.

cheers IP

[Xorthis]

Thanks IP, that defiantly is food for thought.

The only thing that still keeps me away from that path is that I'll need a JAA-PPL to fly a G registered A/C in the UK so in the end I'll still have to do the JAA checkride+exams. While I'm doing the ATPL GS (Which will be by distance so I can keep working) I do plan to fly now and then, if only to stay current, otherwise I'll be stuck in a situation where I'm taking a year out of flying to do the GS.


I think after taking what has been said into consideration, the easiest method is still to complete the JAA-PPL+NR, which I am already training for here in England, build a few hours to get some Xcountry hours on the JAA licence. Then in the year or so that it takes me to complete the ATPLs I can still fly here in England to stay current and take the time to get a FAA license issued, which takes up to 90 days. Once that's out of the way, build hours for the remaining CPL requirements in the US then complete the CPL here in England.

[IRISHPILOT]

you fly on the temporary airman certificate if doing an FAA PPL, so no need to wait for issue.

You most definitely do not need a JAA PPL to fly a G reg, an FAA PPL is perfectly ok. Again, do not listen to sales people, check it in the regs (LASORS) in the UK, which are similar to JAA FCL and then print the relevant paragraph and rub it under the nose of whoever you want to rent from and thinks an FAA licence is not enough. (there are certain limitations, but not for VFR PPL flying within UK airspace, so they do not concern you).

good luck with whatever you decide to do! IP

[Xorthis]

Thanks IP!

I had a quick look at LASORS and it states in Section A3

A person shall not act as a flight crew member of a
civil aeroplane/helicopter registered in a JAA Member
State unless that person holds a valid licence and
rating complying with the requirements of JAR-FCL
and appropriate to the duties being performed, or an
authorisation as set out in JAR-FCL 1.085/2.085 and/or
1.230/2.230. The licence shall have been issued by:
• A JAA Member State; or
• Another ICAO Contracting State and rendered valid
in accordance with JAR-FCL 1.015/ 2.015 (b) or (c).Quickly looking at the relevent JAR-FCL sections they say that I would have to get my FAA licence validated by the CAA and to do this I'd have to pass a Checkride and the relevent skills test. Please correct me if I'm wrong though as it would remove the last reason for me not to do a FAA PPL ;)

[EIPCW]

Epicw, this is the first I have heard of a temporary PPL issued while they process my validation application, could you give any more info on this? Not having to do a conversion would be a great help and save some money :)

Xorthis

Once you have received your JAA PPL you can apply for your FAA PPL by simply filling in a "verification of authenticity form" and posting it off to the CAA with a small fee of course (FAA do the work, CAA get the dosh :ugh:). The CAA will then process this and forward all relavent info to FAA which will take max a couple of weeks.

You are correct in saying that it will take FAA up to 90 days to process all info and issue you with licence. However once you go in to the selected FAA office in which you have made the application you will be issued with a temporary FAA PPL in which it will allow you to fly in the US for 90 days.

I only did this myself a few months ago and the only delay I had was waiting for the CAA to forward all relative info to FAA. Just remember you will be waiting up to a month for the issue of your CAA PPL and then maybe a further 2 weeks for issue of your FAA, so if it's the States that you choose to do your PPL and hour building you will be grounded for up to 6 weeks in between.

Hope this helps, cheers

EIPCW

[Keygrip]

Xorthis,

Please correct me if I'm wrong

You are wrong.

You ICAO PPL is automatically "rendered valid" under the relevant section of the UK Air Navigation Order.

Your FAA licence is 100% suitable to rent a G registered aircraft in the United Kingdom.

Don't waste your time, effort or money on a JAA PPL.

By the way, you answered my previous comment yourself. Really bad idea to finish PPL then stay doing 100 hours plus of unsupervised "hour building" (during which you will teach yourself some very nasty bad habits and then ground yourself for six months doing the groundschool before attempting a very professional course for the CPL.

Save your flying until AFTER the exams are all finished - and even then, take some serious lessons to refresh yourself.

>^..^<

[Xorthis]

Thanks Keygrip,

I checked the CAA website and found this page:

http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=137&pagetype=70&gid=170&faqid=208

Which basically confirms what you said... Oh the choices!

One thing is for sure, after trying to research this I'm not loking forward to the Aviation Law ATPL book... :}

[thatscaptaintou]

Everyone has covered licensing here but as someone who has just returned from San Diego doing hour building on my JAA PPL, I thought I might just give you a heads up.

If you hold a JAA PPL, get the FAA paperwork done well in advance. You need verification to go from the CAA to the FAA (the CAA kindly charge you £40 for the privilege) then in San Diego, you go to the FSDO on Aero Drive.

I did 62.5 hours in 3 weeks at Montgomery Field in San Diego which is also on Aero Drive, flying with Golden Wings Flying Club. I don't know about A-A Aviation but I did email them months ago about hours building and they never replied.

I loved flying at Montgomery Field. It lies in Class B airspace very close to Lindbergh Field and Miramar, so there's plenty to contend with. But actually flying in Class B is relatively straightforward, SOCAL Approach maintain separation and have you under constant radar surveillance and it's nice to get a call something like "Cherokee 1747T, traffic to your 11'o clock is Boeing 757 climbing out of 3000 feet, report in sight"

I thoroughly recommend San Diego and especially Monthgomery Field if you want experience of Class B. I feel that if you want to train as an airline pilot, you need to fly in this kind of airspace and not look for class G wherever you can. I spent time flying out to Las Vegas, the Grand Canyon and Monument Valley, all at 11000 feet in a PA28. It's an experience you'll never forget but be wary of the heat. When I departed Vegas for the Canyon and Monument Valley back to Montgomery, that day constituted 9.5 hours flying, and it's amazing how exhausting you find it.

But definitely go San Diego, and personally, Montgomery Field - if you like a challenge! I'm going to upload some photos at some point of my trip.

[chris-squire]

After a pretty dissapointing trip to Canada in March...long story....I'm looking at my hour building options at the mo and San Diego looks like a good bet. Ive got the option of flying out to Phoenix, Arizona to do it out there rent free with a car thanks to some relatives who live just down the road from Westwind Aviation. But Montgomery sounds pretty good aswel.

Don't suppose anyone has had experience with Westwind???

Chreers

Chris :ok:

[Xorthis]

Personally, I love the area around California. It's hot, but not sticky like Florida as the humidity is nice and low. I grew up in a beach suburb of LA (Manhattan Beach), but left before I was 10 and now can't wait to go back and do some flying!

I've been told that flying in northern cali is pretty amazing too, the bay area being spectacular with mountains, fertile valleys (Napa Valley!) and the deserts of the wild west close by, with some settlements to match ;)

Chris, I don't know much about Westwind, but I do remember from camping out in Arizona when I was a kid that it's a pretty massive wilderness. There's not much except desert (though not as bad as Texas). Not so great for local flying if you like the eye candy while you practice, but still some great oppotunities for cross country.