The Menaces of the "Guard Police" 31.5.08

[DX Wombat]

This is addressed to the idiots of the “Guard Police” who were active on the morning of 31.5.08.
I had departed from Halfpenny Green in a Cessna 152, with my passenger, an ex WW2 RAF Aircrew gentleman. We were heading for Project Propeller at Old Warden. In case you are not aware, this is the annual opportunity for these lovely veterans to fly in to a significant destination and catch up with their, sadly now ever dwindling numbers of, colleagues. The weather forecast was perfectly acceptable for such a trip as was the METAR for immediately prior to departure the only possible hiccup being the 4K visibility at Stansted but that was well away from where we were headed.
Nearing Wellesbourne the visibility, whilst remaining within my legal limits, became poor and patchy requiring careful negotiation of the murkier patches. Wellesbourne asked us (there were two of us from EGBO headed for EGTH) to route well south of them as they had the Vulcan stuck on the runway. Having checked my time and chart I was not where I should have been. I decided to call D&D (London Centre) for a position fix with a view to turning back. (I was in fact on track but not as far along it as I thought)The officer at D&D was most helpful and said he would route me well south of Wellesbourne. He and I exchanged relevant information and he provided me with vectors and updates eventually taking me almost to the overhead join at Old Warden something which was greatly appreciated by both myself and my passenger. During this time I was responsible, as always, for maintaining VFR which sometimes involved heading and height variations and conversation with D&D.
The problem with the “Guard Police” started almost the second I called D&D. “You’re on guard” was heard over and over and over again. All, sounded as if they were from the USA. A firm, polite call from D&D produced a short respite but the calls soon returned. They were a serious problem. At one point I was passing information to D&D regarding the weather around Cranfield and an irate, American voice shouted at me “you are talking on guard”. Of course I was! I needed to talk to D&D and they to me. At this point I finally lost my temper (I do not do so easily) and told the interferer that I was well aware that I was talking on 121.5, gave a reason why, then told him to shut up, go away and let D&D do their job of helping me. I make NO apology for doing so.
You self-appointed “Guard Police” are a menace and, if you carry on will eventually cause a fatal accident by your constant interfering and the stress you cause by doing so. You sit happily in your nice, comfy, super-equipped aircraft flying along in the beautiful blue sky above the clouds with not a care in the world except perhaps what you are going to have for your next meal, or what is in the day’s newspapers. I, and many like me, am restricted to flying beneath the cloud in conditions of which you are completely unaware. You seem incapable of understanding that in order to help someone it is necessary for the person requiring the help and D&D to speak to each other using 121.5. Do you have crystal balls to do this for you in the USA? We certainly don’t over here.
As pilots we ALL have a duty of care towards each other – your duty of care towards me that morning was totally absent.
There are two types of licence and two categories of pilot. Private Pilot’s Licence and Commercial (I include the ATPL in this), Professional and Unprofessional. PPL licence holders can be just as professional in their flying as the best CPL/ ATPL holders and some of the CPL/ ATPLs can be very unprofessional. You are the most unprofessional Commercial pilots it has ever been my misfortune to encounter. You appear to have a complete lack of care and commonsense and seem only to want to hear the sound of your own voices bleating on 121.5. As far as I am concerned your interference amounted to placing an aircraft and its passengers in danger. You are a menace to aviation as a whole and a thorough disgrace to your airlines. If I had access to the information which would enable me to identify you I would most certainly write to the airlines concerned. I shall, however, leave it to D&D London Centre to take any action they deem necessary.

To D&D at LATCC: Many thanks for your excellent service and help. I really do appreciate all you did as did my veteran passenger who is most impressed. “Such a lovely, warm, caring voice” he said, “you knew you could have confidence in him and he got us exactly where we needed to be. Wonderful.”
To the true, professional pilots who listened on 121.5, realised there was a problem and that D&D were trying to deal with it: Thank you, you are the real professionals and your watching silence was appreciated. My passenger had a wonderful day – his words and has spent the time since then boring (his description) his friends, family and work colleagues with the details of the event. He can’t wait for next year’s event!
In the meantime I am continuing with my IMC rating and have had a chat with the CFI about some revision I feel will be helpful in improving my skills.

Any comments you may wish to make should be posted on the other Guard Police thread.

[sleeper]

Totally agree with your views on the guard police.
As an aside, and this is no criticism on your part, maybe there is a possibility that DD can switch to a discreet frequency after the initial distress call. Situation permitting ofcourse.

[Sallyann1234]

DX Wombat,
Many sympathies for the unnecessary stress caused by unthinking tossers.

As an aside, why on earth was your post moved here - away from the very people it was addressed to? :ugh:

[Keygrip]

S'ok - we'll move it back for them.

[BRL]

No idea why it was moved here. Perhaps it would be a good idea to have it in both forums so I am going to send a copy of this thread back there........

[ChristiaanJ]

... maybe there is a possibility that DD can switch to a discreet frequency after the initial distress call?IIRC, the D&D system of rapid direction finding and triangulation works only on 121.5 (and 243.0?).
In which case, no, you can't switch frequencies.
Can somebody clarify? I'm familiar with the system, but not with the UK infrastructure.

[Dogma]

My sympathy Wombat, glad it worked out.

But I have to agree with sleeper, the UK's finder of lost aircraft system needs to be changed, Guard Channel does not work with the plethora of Practice Pans, etc. Guard is too important in the world of modern commercial aviation. Any thing other than genuine urgency problems need to be moved away from 121.5.

Illegal transmissions need to be prosecuted and the UKs system needs to be brought into line with the global position on guard.

[eagle21]

The problem is down to standards, gentelmen keep up the self discipline and proffesionalism.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Maybe, but what DX is talking about was an emergency and these idiots didn't even understand that.

The whole debate about 121.5 in the UK is seperate from this discussion, pratts who start making the "you're on guard" speech in the middle of a genuine emergency need to have their R/T licences revoked or at least have their ears checked more often.

This is the second time in recent weeks I've heard of actual emergency transmissions being blocked by a member of the guard police.

My contempt for these plonkers knows no bounds. If you hear some muppet chatting to a mate on 121.5, then I could understand the annoyance and the temptation to shut them up, but in the middle of a problem.......... Use a bit of common sense and just shut the hell up.

[SR71]

I dislike the sound of my own voice.

It would appear many pilots don't.

:rolleyes:

[Jackdaw]

Totally agree. Guard Police need to shut up. Too many times they blot out real (or normally practice) transmissions. I think the main trouble is that from an airliner at FL390 or higher these UK calls are heard for 250 miles or so inside mainland Europe - Germans (as well as US) seem to try and Police 121.5 quite regularly possibly not hearing the UK ground controller and only hearing the aircraft in real or practice trouble.

My gut feel says all practice calls (not the one in question here) should be on an alternate freq. We are supposed to monitor 121.5, most times near UK airspace it is totally impracticable due the number of practice calls (and no doubt hence the guard police response). Personally I just de-select 121.5 so I can hear Box 1. Not the real solution :(

[ChristiaanJ]

... plethora of Practice Pans, etc.
Please, get your facts right!!

The problem is NOT with practice PANs, which are an essential part of practising for the day of a real emergency, and are actively encouraged by D&D.

From the description by Wombat of the shambles on 121.5, maybe the time has come for D&D to acquire some more 'judicial' clout?

Fines for anybody transmitting on 121.5 without a valid reason?
Revoking the permit to operate into the UK for those airlines with the identified "perpetrators", until they show proof the perpetrators have had their R/T licenses revoked and have been sent for re-training?
Arresting the perpetrators after landing and have them sued for "criminal conduct"?

Ah, one can but dream.

Nevertheless, from this forum one has the impression this is becoming a real problem.... So maybe D&D SHOULD be given some more clout to deal with it?

[Dogma]

ChristianJ - Do not preach to me please. The whole lost pilot system in the UK is no longer acceptable, Practice Pans clutter and corrupt 121.5, end of.

Alternatively do you propose changing 121.5 globally to accommodate the UKs procedures?????

We need a "clean freq" asap

[Airbubba]

Some years ago I was listening to the NASA audio feed of a high inclination orbit space shuttle launch.

Shortly after the external tank tank was jettisoned the crew remarked "looks like we're going to have to secure uniform, we've been advised by an RAF bomber crew that we're transmitting on an unauthorized frequency".

The shuttle in that era had a wafer switch that selected 296.8, 259.7 or 243.0 on the UHF control panel.

See: http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/shuttle/reference/shutref/orbiter/comm/orbcomm/uhf.html

There is no small irony in Americans trying to enforce R/T discipline. Before 911 domestic flights rarely monitored guard and international types used it mostly for ride reports and sports scores over the water. After 911, it is monitored religiously even on domestic flights lest you be intercepted and have to fill out paperwork.

[757_Driver]

ChristianJ - Do not preach to me please. The whole lost pilot system in the UK is no longer acceptable, Practice Pans clutter and corrupt 121.5, end of.

Alternatively do you propose changing 121.5 globally to accommodate the UKs procedures?????

We need a "clean freq" asap


get your facts straight before you sound off dogma.
D&D recently did a survey of all transmissions on 121.5, in order to see if the very complaint that you made above was valid.
Guess what, they found that the majority (up in the 70-80-90 odd % ISTR) of calls on 121.5 were us lot up at FL300+, not the much maligned uk ppl with practice pans (which is usually included as part of the PPL course) and genuine emergencies.
So wind yer neck back in mate, and save your spleen venting for the yanks saying "you're on guard" every 5 seconds.

D&D, 121.5 and practice pans are all very much part of the current campaign to help reduce airspace incursions in the UK - would you rather that 121.5 was used or would you rather have lost PPL's wandering accross 09L approach?

It is us lot that need educating, not the UK GA community (of which I am also part).

[ChristiaanJ]

Dogma,
From the statistics I've seen, the "clutter" on 121.5 is from 'illegitimate' chit-chat, not from legitimate users... and I include the practice PANs in the latter category.

Yes, the frequency needs cleaning up ASAP, but NOT by eliminating practice PANs.

[Sven Sixtoo]

Dogma, I'm afraid I have to disagree. The primary disruption I hear on 121.5 is airline pilots making inadvertent transmissions - everything from calling air traffic to calling company to talking to the passengers. The second is the local beacon manufacturers doing testing. The third most common use is airliners getting on to the correct frequency - often in the form "XXX this is YYY please call ZZZ on abc.de". That to me is an acceptable use of the frequency. Practice Pans come a long way down the list, and actual emergencies, thank God, come last. The first example is inevitable - we all make mistakes - but the incidence of it is evidence of a lack of care in radio selection. The second example is, I believe, actually criminal.

I really do think that 121.5 in the UK is primarily a GA / aerial work service in practice. Many years ago I used it most effectively to keep me out of the London Zone after getting a bit off track going round Luton Zone. I dare say that saved some trouble for airliners in the same general area. Airliners are already talking to an agency who knows who they are / where they are / what they are doing. That sounds to me to be a much better agency to call with your problem than D&D, who for all their expertise, don't know anything about you until you start talking.

Isn't the real reason for listening on 121.5 the same as mine - so as to be able to help in the event of an emergency? In which case, a pause of a few marching paces before stepping in would be sensible - wait out for D&D first, someone like me second, and if the poor guy with the problem still hasn't had a response, the words "MAYDAY RELAY THIS IS..." might just make somebody's day.

And to put all that in context, I do SAR shifts where we have to listen continuously to 121.5 in the ops room as well as in the air.

Sven

[Dogma]

Sound off - that was a mear clearing of the throat.

There are insects that use 121.5 for piss anting around and thats deplorable. Accidently tx on guard is an occupational hazard.

However we need to monitor guard all the time, inc the north atlantic and other remote regions. Practise Pans, etc are clutter and no longer necessary on 121.5 make it 121.4 or whatever.

PS I fly DA40 for GA fun - have gps.

121.5 is for URGENT messages for all flying craft! :ok:

[gone till november]

DX

I thought your post was fantastic up until your seemingly anti jet pilot rant.

Whilst i agree with you and your particular use of 121.5 there are many people who do use it for some of the non correct uses as listed above. I would also like to fess up as someone who has been an occasional " your on guard", it has only been to some of the thick pilots who have.....on one occasion been singing or laughing or many of the other dumb things you hear.:ugh::ugh::ugh:

I maybe alone but i think in these circumstances ,it is, to a point justified.

I have been he target of that dreaded phrase a few times and quite rightly so as i was transmitting on 121.5 by mistake a call to the FBO or calling ATC or whatever and this is where i think your comments fall down.

You sit happily in your nice, comfy, super-equipped aircraft flying along in the beautiful blue sky above the clouds with not a care in the world except perhaps what you are going to have for your next meal, or what is in the day’s newspapers.

This is a slight on ALL (as you call it ) professional pilots and be-littles your earlier sensible and interesting heartfelt comment.

eagle 21


The problem is down to standards, gentelmen keep up the self discipline and proffesionalism


Best thing said so far and i think that if people listen out for two seconds before they dribble out "you're on guard" then they can make an assesment of if its a muppet, genuine mistake (like ive done a few times:=.....sorry) or real emergency and then act accordingly.

Glad to hear that you landed safely DX and some of your anger is justified but some of it is misguided.

[moggiee]

DX

I thought your post was fantastic up until your seemingly anti jet pilot rant.
I see no such rant in the original post.

You sit happily in your nice, comfy, super-equipped aircraft flying along in the beautiful blue sky above the clouds with not a care in the world except perhaps what you are going to have for your next meal, or what is in the day’s newspapers. This makes a valid point about the detachment that we can experience when 6 miles above the ground - in an aeroplane which is equipped with the latest nav kit, a nice autopilot and a Radar Control Service. As a jet pilot myself, I know that I would much rather be up there with a minimal workload than grubbing around VFR in the murk in an under-equipped C152!

What I do see is a (legitimate) complaint aimed at people acting in an unprofessional way by giving someone a hard time for using guard for precisely the sort of reason for which it is intended. That lack of "professionalism" is not aimed at jet pilots but at people who act in an unprofessional manner, whether they be PPL, CPL or ATPL holders.

Guard is not just for the declaration and management of emergencies, but also for the provision of aid with the aim of preventing a "problem" becoming and "emergency". The sanctimonious, self appointed Guard Police would do well to bear that in mind.

[pilotbear]

Glad it worked out OK DX, I apologise for the self righteous idiots still in the industry. Sadly there are still a few who are obviously unimportant to their company/family/community so they have to make up for it somewhere; hopefully they will all retire soon:E
And you are right, there is nothing to do up at FL 410 except look at the menu/paper/book despite what anyone might tell you. It is not rocket science to manage a Jet, it is however Rocket science to have a professional courteous attitude as you can see.
Having done a lot of single pilot_iFR flying and IR instructing I know what exactly the conditions can be like.
I also flew Project Propeller last week, and the visibility was very bad and unpredicted. My two veterans were fascinating, a Beaufighter night fighter pilot and a Stirling Navigator. One of which did 42 missions. Amazing.
Wonder how many of the above plonkers would give up their time and fuel for free:ugh:
You did the right thing.
:ok:

[DX Wombat]

Gone till november - I'm sorry I gave the impression that I was having an anti-jet pilot rant that certainly wasn't my intention, I was merely trying to convey the fact that conditions above the cloud can be far removed from those below and that above the cloud you are isolated and insulated from the world beneath. I have good reason to be very grateful to one Emirates pilot who, at 37,000' somewhere above Europe, listened and acted appropriately to help. I can understand accidental transmissions there isn't a single one of us who has never made some sort of mistake and, to some extent, I can understand someone reminding another that they are transmitting on the wrong frequency especially when it is clear cut abuse of it. D&D is a wonderful service and we here in the UK are very fortunate in having it. The officers working in D&D are specially trained for the job so there is no risk of anyone in the UK ending up talking to a recently validated ATCO straight out of college, who may not have fully developed the necessary skills for dealing with such emergencies. There is no need for anyone flying in or near the UK to tell others that they are "on guard" as D&D will inform them as necessary. My anger is not with the vast majority of real professional pilots but rather with the stupid, selfish, thoughtless idiots who cannot remember to LISTEN before they speak but simply bark out what they fondly imagine to be a warning. It is good to know that, like that Emirates pilot, there are many of you out there who DO listen and are prepared to help should it be necessary. I do have very serious concerns that the behaviour of the "Guard Police" is eventually going to cause a fatal accident. Being rather older than many PPLs and PPL students I hope I have gained enough experience in general to be able to cope with interruptions but a less experienced student or PPL may be so totally confused and upset by their antics that he or she doesn't hear vital information from D&D with possible tragic results. What happened last Saturday went far beyond the odd interruption it was almost constant and was dangerous.
Thank you to everyone who was listening and was relieved to hear that I had reached Old Warden safely. My passenger was a rear gunner so had done very little flying. He didn't pass any remarks about the interruptions but I could see from the raised eyebrows that he wasn't too happy about them. When I chatted to him last night he said "I thought the visibility wasn't ideal but when I saw that big, black wedge out to the east of Worcester I knew it wasn't. In spite of all that he had a wonderful time and, as he put it, saw so much more of the country than he had ever seen before. He followed our progress on the chart and took great delight in finding the places which the officer from D&D mentioned both on the chart and the ground. Project Propeller is the one day when we can give a little back to those who did so much for us. I'm glad to say that in spite of all that happened and with the help of D&D he was able to enjoy his day. That made all the hassle worthwhile.
Keygrip and BRL, thanks for moving it back. :ok:

[F14]

Maybe you should sen in a report to CAA? or just an anecdotal to Chirp. PPRUNE is a great board, but is only "Bar Talk" type forum.

The points you make are very valid and every UK PPL is taught the correct way to speak with D&D. Many CPLs only flew GA types in USA, sadly its the way things have been going.....

On the plus side I think I heard of a Ryanair helping somebody with RT problems,making a relay, a while ago, maybe it was chirp or here??? So not all bad

[Dogma]

"sitting comfy at 410, etc" - what twaddle, a sim instructor and a GA pilot casting BS about the issues faced by commercial jet pilots... what a joke. You try doing that across the world safely and efficently - it is no cake walk. The gall!!!!


DX - you are a gentleman Pilot and you should have not had to face such inappropriate calls from other Pilots on Guard. But bare in mind these guys are coming off the atlantic picking up only bits of your transmission, it sounds like illegal tx. The UK is non-standard in its use of 121.5.

What is wrong with relocating this frequency? When nearing the UK the "traffic" on 121.5 is unacceptable, ATC Radio Checks, mistakes, Pans, Practice Pans, etc, etc.

What about a Global VHF SELCAL system for all airliners on 121.5?

[moggiee]

Dogma (unfortunate, but rather appropriate choice of user name) - a few points.

Miss DX Wombat would prefer to be known as a "lady pilot".

The UK may be out of step with the USA on 121.5 - but that's OK, this took place in UK airspace so it was all in accordance with the local procedures. UK pilots follow FAA/DoD rules in the USA, German rules in Germany, French rules in France (need I go any further with this?).

Despite what it's inhabitants believe, the USA does NOT rule the world - other people do things differently.

[Arthur Dent1]

Gap of perception here, all commercial jet pilots have experienced VFR flying with the associated issues. Only a minority of VFR pilots understand the Jet/IFR environment, including trying never to miss RT calls when clearances are being issued which affect the lives of the hundreds of passengers who depend on us.

I do essentially agree with Wombat though at the indifferent and patronising tone of the Guard nerds.

It is a shame that no-one in the stratosphere tried to stop the nerds from interrupting a genuine D and D communication, I will certainly make sure that we try to comprehend any 121.5 calls should they occur in any section of the flying community.

Good luck to Wombat and happy flying mate!:)

[chrisbl]

.......including trying never to miss RT calls when clearances are being issued which affect the lives of the hundreds of passengers who depend on us.


A bit holier than thou. The system operates as much on the fact that if the pilot dies so will everyone else. So if the pilot survives so will most others.

A good reason while pilots will stay on the aircraft for the forseeable future rather than hunkered down is a bunker somewhere flying the aircraft by remote control.

A listening to and understanding clearances is important whether you are flying solo or with three hundred people if you life depends on it.

As for the UKs non standard use of 121.5, bear in mind that the other non standard part of the 121.5 regime is that it is permenetantly manned by the military and if anyone is the are the guard police.

A required quality of even the most basic pilot is situational awareness. It seems some dont appreciate that when around the UK and their misuse of 121.5.

If you know 121.5 is non standard adapt. If you dont know 121.5 is non standard, shame on you.

[dublinpilot]

121.5 is an emergency frequency. This was an emergency, and was being correctly used for such communications.

Just because airliners suddenly have to monitor it since 9/11 doen't mean that it's suddenly become an airliner emergency frequency only. If you want an airliner only emergency frequency then ask for a frequency for that, rather than expecting everyone else to change.

[BackPacker]

121.5 is an emergency frequency. This was an emergency, and was being correctly used for such communications.

Well, personally I would not call this an "emergency". Sure, within the UK this is a legitimate use of 121.5 but in other parts of the world this would not be appropriate. Instead, you would be contacting the nearest radar/VDF equipped center on their own frequency, and talk to them.

Also, I don't think (based on what I've read here) that DX actually declared a "pan" or "mayday", and used that word consistently in front of her callsign. I don't think there's any pilot in the world who, upon hearing "this is mayday/pan G-DX" on 121.5 would play the guard police, as the word mayday or pan alone would make clear that the use of 121.5 was deliberate and genuine.

As others have said it, the UK is one of the few (perhaps the only) country in the world which allows (even encourages, in some cases) the use of 121.5 for more than just genuine emergencies. It's also one of the few (perhaps the only) country who have a dedicated ground unit (D&D) which monitors this frequency H24. In most other places such a ground unit is not in place and without some sort of informal guard police 121.5 would probably quickly become another sports/chat channel.

Of course airline pilots are supposed to know the local rules, regulations and habits of the countries they're flying in. This is such a local thing. I don't know exactly how airline pilots do things but I've heard that diligent pilots fly with the AIP (or the Jeppessen extract of it) on their lap, looking up local ICAO differences as they fly along. I wonder how prominent these differences wrt. 121.5 are written down in the UK AIP so that airline pilots know about them?

[Gertrude the Wombat]

As others have said it, the UK is one of the few (perhaps the only) country in the world which allows (even encourages, in some cases) the use of 121.5 for more than just genuine emergencies. It's also one of the few (perhaps the only) country who have a dedicated ground unit (D&D) which monitors this frequency H24. In most other places such a ground unit is not in place and without some sort of informal guard police 121.5 would probably quickly become another sports/chat channel.
Maybe I'm being a bit thick here ... but what use is 121.5 in other parts of the world if nobody who can help you is listening to it??

[youngskywalker]

Simple really old boy, it's like military stores "Stores are for storing things, if we handed out all of our stores then we wouldnt have any stores would we...?" :E

[BackPacker]

Maybe I'm being a bit thick here ... but what use is 121.5 in other parts of the world if nobody who can help you is listening to it??

Baseball scores, general chitchat and the occasional mayday relay?

[moggiee]

Backpacker - you don't understand the way D&D works in the UK. You don't have to have an "emergency" to call D&D on 121.5 - if you need help,they're there. D&D stands for "Distress and Diversion" - it was under the second part of that remit that D&D were helping out DX Wombat.

Part of their role is to provide practice PANs, training fixes so that pilots can learn to use the system and position fixes for pilots who need a little help. Giving position fixes helps prevent a "situation" becoming an "emergency" - and there is no need to use "PAN" or "MAYDAY" for training fixes and position fixes.

Obviously, if a full blown emergency arises then the practice PAN, taringing etc take second place.

Maybe it could have been done with another ATCU - but DX did the most important thing of all - she recognised that she needed help and got some, rather than just blundering into an accident.

[DFC]

I am really struggling to decide if the "Guard Police" are worse than an idiot that uses the emergency service for their own personal vectoring service in marginal weather.

While I do not agree with the way that the complaints were made, I feel that a complaint about a flight unnecessarly using the emergency frequency to be vectored not to the nearest suitable aerodrome - you must have passed plenty between Wellsbourne and Old Warden - but all the way to destination is very justified.

I would have not called on 121.5 to complain about another pilot making such transmissions but would have filed an MOR on arrival.

The issues as I see them are;

1. The flight did not have an emergency

2. D+D vectored the aircraft not to the nearest suitable aerodrome but all the way to destination bypasing several suitable aerodromes.

3. D+D continued to vector the aircraft using area radars and 121.50 when the flight was for most of the time in range of several approach radar units with more accurate radar and better coverage at low level. These units could proivide just as good a service and in doing so would remove the non-emergency traffic from 121.5

One thinks that there was too much "I don't want to turn back" in this situation and both the pilot and D+D joined forces to make a scudrunning VFR flight to destination when a turn back or diversion to suitable nearby aerodrome would have been without doubt a safe option.

Had I overheard this on 121.5 then I would not interupt but would file an MOR for abuse of the frequency by non-emergency traffic obtaining a personal vectoring service.

Regards,

DFC

[youngskywalker]

oh dear god...:ugh:

[Foxy Loxy]

Hi DX,

I happened to be monitoring 121.5 that day, and I heard your comms with D&D throughout. May I congratulate you on keeping your composure so well? I heard the "Guard Police" too, and I was pretty disgusted at their behaviour.

From DFC:
I am really struggling to decide if the "Guard Police" are worse than an idiot that uses the emergency service for their own personal vectoring service in marginal weather.
Perhaps you should have read DX's opening post properly. The weather that she encountered was NOT forecast!! What an irresponsible and ill-considered comment. Now go and crawl back into your hole, and stay there.

I would implore pilots to ignore what DFC said, and if you do find yourself in a similar situation, call D&D. Or any other ATCU (preferably with radar). We're here to help. It's what we do.

[youngskywalker]

He just loves to be controversial in everything that he posts, he would argue black is white. I'm going to try the 'ignore' function on pprune from now on!

[Foxy Loxy]

I'm inclined to agree, youngskywalker. Normally I wouldn't bother responding, but when something flies so obviously in the face of flight safety it shouldn't be left to stand.

[DX Wombat]

Don't worry Youngskywalker, DFC obviously can't read very well. I am really struggling to decide if the "Guard Police" are worse than an idiot that uses the emergency service for their own personal vectoring service in marginal weather.
Firstly I would have been an idiot to have NOT called D&D. You as a commercial pilot might be able to get help from Birmingham which was the nearest civil airfield with radar but Birmingham has a dreadful reputation for unfriendliness to GA indeed they didn't even give me their QNH to enable me to keep clear of their airspace on my return. Fortunately I knew I was low enough. Would you want to contact such an airfield? Quite apart from which, D&D is the dedicated unit for people with problems and they MUCH prefer people to call early rather than have to send someone to pick up the bits.
..... I was not where I should have been. I decided to call D&D (London Centre) for a position fix with a view to turning back. What do you not understand about that?
The officer at D&D was most helpful and said he would route me well south of Wellesbourne. He and I exchanged relevant information and he provided me with vectors and updates eventually taking me almost to the overhead join at Old Warden At no time did I ask to be taken to OW but the fact that I was was greatly appreciated. To where do you suggest they should have diverted me? I was well past Birmingham, Wellesbourne had their runway closed, nobody was answering D&D's calls at Hinton in the Hedges or Turweston, and Cranfield, a few minutes away from my destination was extremely busy. As for collusion with D&D to give me a personal vectoring service if that were not such a serious allegation it would be laughable. I shall be very interested to hear what D&D has to say about that.
Foxy and Luke, thank you for those kind comments. I was obviously composing this reply whilst you were writing yours. I'm leaving it to D&D to decide what to do about the persistent interruptions as they have all the relevant data and, as the official body, probably have much more clout than I do.
Er, that should be "Young" skywalker, not Luke. :O

[youngskywalker]

Agreed, people could find themselves seriously in the 'kak' if they listen to crap advice like that.

So what if they vectored the subject aircraft to the required destination? That was at the sole discretion of the D&D staff and Pilot in command, perhaps they saw it as good practice? Perhaps landing at an 'unfamiliar' airfield, or one that she had no cockpit information on, had not breifed herself for was not the 'best course of action'?

For once get off your high horse, if you cant, in over 2000 posts ever post anything positive, encouraging or worth listening to then please don't bother!

[Whirlygig]

How can one pilot believe that they know another pilot's distress and what is the most appropriate course of action? The only people who should comment about someone being on the wrong frequency surely is the D&D/ATCU concerned?

Cheers

Whirls

[west lakes]

Stuck this in the other thread but the questions may be relevant here as well

I've been reading this, and associated, threads with interest for some time. It raises some questions that perhaps the professional aviators could answer or comment on.

There seems to be a number of scenarios being discussed: -

Accidental transmissions on the frequency
Deliberate non-emergency transmissions as defined world wide (the chit chat, funny noises etc.)
The legal use of the frequency in UK airspace; which non UK crews may be aware of and disagree with so ignore, or non UK crews may not be aware of in the first place which lead to; -
The interruptions by self appointed "police" to legal and emergency use in UK airspace

In the case of the UK airspace issues

1/ If a professional crew is operating in the UK and knows the legal position and chooses to ignore it - are they operating legally?

2/ If a professional crew is not aware of the law as applies to UK airspace (or airspace in other countries) - are they operating legally in that airspace?

3/ Continuing on from 2 if an airline rosters a crew that is not aware of the law as applies to airspace they are to operate in or assumes they do know, but it, the airline, has not checked this fact - is that flight operating legally?

[Il Duce]

I've been interested in many of the posts on this thread and on similarly related ones on pprune. If I may add a bit more to my previous posts on the subject I hope I'll be able to clear up a few misconceptions and, perhaps, provide some information:
D&D in the London FIR, primarily, have access to three frequencies. They are 121.5, 243.0 and 245.1. All three have DF facilities dotted around the country. It may be possible (since the move to Swanwick) to select other frequencies on the kit in D&D but that will not be tied in to any DF. 245.1 is PETF - Practice Emergency Training Frequency - for the military to do their practice pans and training fixes on; thus not interfering with 243.0. There is no VHF equivalent PETF. If the guard police feel so strongly about this lack of a VHF PETF perhaps their airlines should lobby nats to provide D&D with one (and maybe help to fund it). All of the controllers in D&D are RAF. Their orders include the handling of practice emergencies on 121.5. The only times when they will not allow training calls on 121.5 is during actual aircraft emergencies (sensible enough) and whilst SAROPs are in progress during which the SAR crews require r/t silence on 121.5 so they can home in on ELTs/PLBs. Read that bit again, guard police. "..... the SAR crews require r/t silence so they can home in on ELTs/PLBs".
I hope this provides a little more of an insight to those not familiar with the workings of D&D.
I will be very interested, as I'm sure many others will be, in the outcome of a survey that was conducted at London Centre throughout May. It was commanded, by those much higher up the "foodchain" than the D&D controllers, to illicit exactly how much time was taken up on 121.5 by inadvertant transmissions, abuse, actual emergencies, practice emergencies etc. Of course, because of the radio equipment, not all transmissions were made whilst the aircraft were in the London FIR/UIR, but the survey will have logged all aircraft calls on 121.5 that were heard at Swanwick. I admit that I don't know what the purpose of the survey is - still, I'll bet that the time taken up by misuse/abuse and inadvertant transmissions far outweighs that of the practice pans/training fixes.

[stoneyrosetreered]

What I don't understand here is why some of the people commenting here (clearly the ones who fly way up there) are trying to justify policing 121.5, because that is what you are doing with all this rubish about a CPL/ATPL whatever knows about VFR but your average PPL has no idea about what they do. Is there some sort of urge to become the worlds greatest :mad: when you sit in front of those glass instruments? As far as I am concerned anyone who deliberately interferes with another aircrafts transmission (whatever it may be) should be prosecuted, as some commercial pilots here have tried to justify it with 'we don't always hear the whole transmission' shouldn't that just secure the fact you shouldn't be transmitting at all. As DX has said it's only a matter of time before you step on an emergency and this time Guard never get the message.

Let the ATCO do his/her job.

[DFC]

Perhaps you should have read DX's opening post properly. The weather that she encountered was NOT forecast!! What an irresponsible and ill-considered comment. Now go and crawl back into your hole, and stay there.

I would implore pilots to ignore what DFC said, and if you do find yourself in a similar situation, call D&D. Or any other ATCU (preferably with radar). We're here to help. It's what we do.

I never said that it was wrong to call D+D when lost and in marginal VMC on a VFR flight. That was a good idea.

However, even if the weather encountered was not forecast and the pilot had agreed with the met office information provided - they had come from an area with better wether and among others, the airfield they had departed from was still available in the good weather behind them.

There were 20+ aerodromes in the area traversed that the flight could have landed at safely.

However, the flight was continued in marginal conditions all the way to destination and required the emergency service to provide vectors all the way there.

I will say it again - it is not the initial call for help and using 121.5 to sort out the aircraft position that I have a problem with - it is the subsequent use of 121.5 for something that it is not designed for - non-emergency traffic vectoring to destination.

Never mind the guard police - picture another pilot unsure of position near Heathrow zone. They tune 121.50 and hear regular transmissions to a flight being vectored etc etc.

Do you not think that they will assume - emergency in progress don't make a call?

Regards,

DFC

[Gingerbread Man]

Slight aside, but whenever I use the radio, each transmission is ended with my callsign. If I were an ATCO and someone was disrupting valid transmissions, i'd want to know who was speaking so I could address them and be sure of getting my point across, rather than a 'to whom it may concern' type transmission. Do the 'police' just speak without identification?

I only ask as I haven't experienced this myself.

Ginger ;)

[Whirlygig]

Do the 'police' just speak without identification?
Yes. Cowardly, ain't it!!!

it is not the initial call for help and using 121.5 to sort out the aircraft position that I have a problem with - it is the subsequent use of 121.5 for something that it is not designed for
DFC, that may well be your opinion but, the only people who should be making the decision as to the correct use of 121.5 is the D&D/ATCU and pilot concerned - not you!!

Cheers

Whirls

[gone till november]

DX

You did absolutely the right thing despite what some might think:ok: and your actions were that of an aviator and not some person who just flies.

Its part of my companies as it for most, sops to listen out on box two and i have heard some woeful abuses of 121.5 as i said in my last post. On one occassion two german pilots were doing the Muppets (how appropriate )Manama Na song:ugh::ugh::mad::ugh::(......how stupid is that. On that occasion it elicited from me a get off guard you idiots and it stopped. I like most of my colleagues dont say anything but on occasion its needed as im sure the ATCO has other things to do and just accepts the "you're on guard" as a by product of busyier skies.

You initial post did seam a little anti commercial pilot and i must admit that i took a smidgen of offence to it. I certainly can appreciate your anger and loathing towards the offending crew and they deserve to a pass a hedghog next time they sit on the pot.:E

We are not all bad and as you say Emirates saved your bacon or should that be halal beef lamb chicken.

We ALL should listen out for a few seconds as we should do when changing frequency and then decide what to do.

Im glad that your back on the deck safe and sound and im sure this has been a bitter sweet experience learning/curve and as i was once told we all must have at least one survivable emergency to learn.

I have a feeling that this issue is not going to go away easily until some smarty pants comes up with a way of identifying both culrpits of this problem.

Good luck to you and safe flying to all

Moggiee

I did say "seemingly" as that what it appeared to me as.

[Fuji Abound]

ICAO “standards” exist because we recognise the importance of common international standards in aviation. Where a member state departs in matters not concerned with safety that may be questionable, where it is concerned with safety that is unacceptable. I make that comment as much as I would prefer to say we are right and everyone else is wrong or should be familiar with the way WE do things and in the assumption that it is indeed we who have departed from the standard.

However, the fact is we are entitled and have filed a difference so users of our airspace should be aware of this difference and should be “re-educated” if they are not.

DXW clearly used the frequency for the purpose it is intended in UK airspace. Other users were not entitled to suggest otherwise, or use the frequency for another purpose other than a pan or mayday. That said, since it would seem DXW had not declared a pan, priorities would have needed to have been established had another pilot been TUP.

Whether DXW and/or D and D should have kept the frequency in use for a diversion to destination is an interesting issue. In the first instance IMO that was DXWs call and his call alone - it was not up for debate in the air why he wanted to continue to destination. I guess he could have been transferred to a discrete frequency when it was realised that the “emergency” would occupy guard for some time?

IMO back on the ground this is not an unreasonable debate.

On the one hand we may not have any idea why DXW wanted to continue to destination (although in this case I suspect it was more a matter that was what was offered by D and D) and it is definitely not for us to second guess those facts without knowing what they were. A pilot with many 1,000 of hours might have been happy to divert to the most immediate, however given the visibility was clearly improving a low time pilot might have been far more comfortable going to where he had planned and rehearsed. Should the pilot have been able to divert any where that presented enough runway on which to land? - of course yes, but that is not the point.

Should D and D have suggested and offered vectors to a nearer alternative? Possibly. That would have been a reasonably gentle hint to the pilot that in perhaps other circumstances that might present a better solution than risking becoming TUP again in worsening viz. It might have even resulted in the pilot and D and D agreeing that own nav could be resumed, thus clearing the frequency with the proviso that the pilot was welcome to call back if he became TUP again. D and D may well have felt there was nothing else relevant on frequency so they may as well vector DXW to destination, but at the back of my mind I guess it is possible another pilot was becoming TUP, but was reluctant to make the call because the frequency was obviously busy. That would be a shame for another pilot to end up infringing when the first pilot had been / or could have been “sorted out” and cleared off frequency.

DXW a very interesting post however. I have fortunately never had to use D and D for real but have made practise calls more than a few times. The service is excellent. I have to admit I have never experienced the barrage you did and would not have been anywhere near so polite!

I have been “berated” for diverting with an engine failure in a twin. It taught me a vital lesson. The opinion of some on these forums or elsewhere (and it is usually those who have in fact have very little experience) really doesn’t matter when you are dealing with an emergency or “urgency” in the air - the buck stops with you, and you alone must prioritise your safety. Guess what - if you hadn’t made the call, or in other circumstances diverted, or not told those “interfering” with your urgency it would have been the same pilots who would have berated you for your lack of airmanship.

Just a different slant on a few things for what it is worth.

[BRL]

He just loves to be controversial in everything that he posts, he would argue black is white. I'm going to try the 'ignore' function on pprune from now on!

No need. I have just banned him.

I tried to just permanently ban him from our forum here but I am not sure whether I have banned him from the entire site as it has been a while since I banned someone forever!

[Foxy Loxy]

Nope, he's gone from the entire site! :D

No great loss :cool:

[Blues&twos]

What's the situation with changing freqs during an emergency?

Is it better to stay on 121.5 and "hog" the freq for the duration of your problem, or attempt to change freqs in the middle of a situation and then potentially lose contact with D&D altogether?

Just a thought....

[jollyrog]

If it's an emergency and you already have established, reliable comms with any station - why risk losing that by changing frequency?

I'd stick with someone who can hear me, whatever frequency they're on. Even if I am accused of "hogging".

[Sven Sixtoo]

From experience of the half-dozen or so times I've been scrambled to someone still airborne in a light aircraft - stick with the comms you have, whatever it is (which includes 121.5). A SAR cab won't get comms immediately. If you change frequency it only complicates the problem - have you gone to a new freq or is it just that we are not yet close enough / high enough?

If I had a choice, 121.5 would be preferred - SAR cabs have an extra homing receiver so we can talk to other ATC agencies while homing to you on guard. But the most important thing is not to lose comms. Certainly do not leave 121.5 for some other frequency unless told to - D&D are likely to be of more use to you than just about anyone else - they are professionals specifically at emergencies, with resources at their fingertips that other agencies will have to go digging for, and they aren't working anyone else but you and your problem.

Sven

[ChristiaanJ]

My previous post on this question seems to have disappeared?

I thought the direction finding and triangulation system operated by D&D worked only on 121.5 (and a couple of UHF frequencies, such as 243.0 and 245.1).

So switching to another frequency is not an option.

[DX Wombat]

For anyone who may be concerned that I was hogging 121.5 I'm sure Foxy Loxy will be able to confirm that transmissions to and from D&D were kept to the minimum necessary as she was also monitoring the frequency and heard it all from beginning to end. I didn't chatter on from start to finish, nor did I leave my thumb on the transmit switch, so it would have been possible for someone else with a problem to make a call to D&D and I certainly wouldn't have interrupted it.
BRL - YOU STAR! :D :D :D

[dublinpilot]

On the one hand we may not have any idea why DXW wanted to continue to destination (although in this case I suspect it was more a matter that was what was offered by D and D) and it is definitely not for us to second guess those facts without knowing what they were.

Fuji, We do know the facts. You need to reread DX's post. She says that she intended to return to her point of departure; it was D&D's decision to vector her to her destination.

dp

[moggiee]

Clearly DFC struggles with the english language - to the extent that he is unable to understand what the "Diversion" in "Distress and Diversion" stands for. If D&D are happy to help a pilot find their way to their destination then goods on them - it is, after all, part of their remit.

As DXW said, D&D would rather have people call early than have to pick up the bits later.

A question for the self-righteous:

How many of you have actually BEEN to D&D and spoken to the people there? I did whilst in the RAF and I know DXW has, too. It's a good thing to do - they can give you a very useful insight into the way they work, the service they can offer and how they would like YOU to interact with THEM.

[Say again s l o w l y]

If D&D are happy to continue the use of 121.5 for training and emergencies, then so be it. I certainly won't complain.

Whilst the frequency can seem a bit cluttered occasionally. I for one wouldn't change a thing. I know a fair few people who are still breathing thanks to the efforts of D&D AND from the help of airline crew up in the clear blue who relayed calls.

The use of 121.5 for practice pans etc will seem annoying to some of those in the cockpits of many airliners, but given the level of stress I've seen being accepted as "normal", extreme reaction to something actually pretty trivial is not surprising.

I see 121.5 from an instructors, GA and airline pilots perspective and in the UK, I think we have a good system, if only we in the big fast things at high altitude could exercise a bit more discipline and cut out the chit chat, mucked up calls and general daftness that leads to most of the clutter.

I have NEVER heard a spurious call on 121.5 from a light aircraft, but I've heard hundreds from airliners. Glass houses and stones come to mind.

[Fuji Abound]

dp

Having checked my time and chart I was not where I should have been. I decided to call D&D (London Centre) for a position fix with a view to turning back. (I was in fact on track but not as far along it as I thought)The officer at D&D was most helpful and said he would route me well south of Wellesbourne.

Without wishing to split hairs this is what she said in the original post - I didnt read all the subsequent posts so sorry if this was added too.

Clearly in the decision making process she agreed to continue to destination - as I also said because

"although in this case I suspect it was more a matter that was what was offered by D and D"

Anyway, that wasnt anything to do with the point I sought to make which was more concerned with there being a number of factors in a pilots mind that persuades him to take one course of action over another and more particularly a pilot with more experience to tackle a problem in a different way to one with less. That doesnt necessarily mean the pilot with less experience made the wrong decision - it may well be the correct decision for him.

[ShyTorque]

No need. I have just banned him.


BRL, well done - you have just made my day! :ok: :D

DX Wombat, Well done on using the service and frequency as intended. It seems some so-called professional pilots (including ones who can't even spell professional) apparently can't work out how to turn down the radio volume for 121.5 for a minute or so, then turn it up again. :ugh:

I operate single pilot IFR and if I can manage to monitor 121.5, they should certainly be able to, with F all to do and someone else to help them.....

In any event, legitimate chatter on 121.5 proves to the worriers that the frequency is working and that they are actually monitoring it!

The ones that really pee me off are those calling "Shanwick, Shanwick" or "Ops" a number of times. Obviously, it's not the PPL flyers doing that.... :rolleyes:

[ATCO Fred]

Hi all - if you'll allow an ATCO to dip his toes into your thread! As someone who used to run GA safety days (MCASD) where OC D&D Flt would lecture on the roles and capability of their service, their view was that if there was any doubt there was no doubt - give them a call. They would rather an unnecessary call rather than an unnecessary accident/fatality!

Indeed, they used to positively encourage the use of 121.5 for training purposes as it also allows them to train and remain current. This topic has been done to death several times before here: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=323349

And here:http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=291088&highlight=practice+emergency

And a quote here from an actual D&D controller:Quote:
I don’t intend to get embroiled in a debate about 121.5 usage by GA pilots in the UK. It is a FACT that the huge majority of tx on 121.5 are by CAT. Some points I would like to make.

1. When a pilot mistakenly calls a ground unit on 121.5 & receives a "you're on guard" , you would not believe the amount of times he hears that response as "go ahead" and then launches into his spiel about wheelchairs etc often lasting 20 seconds or so. Surely if he got no reply the penny would drop after a couple of calls? I know that when I tx whether as a controller or when I am flying, if I don’t get a response the first thing I do is check my frequency selection.

2. As for complaints about PP calls made within the UK, sorry I have limited sympathy whilst I can hear pilots whistling, singing, chatting, asking for football scores during the world cup and us being sworn at over 121.5 by CAT etc etc. Sort that nonsense out and my view point would be far more sympathetic.

3. In the congested airspace of the UK we actively encourage GA to call D&D 121.5 when they are lost. Part of humanising 121.5 is allowing pilots to make PP calls so that they are familiar with D&D & how we can help should the need arise. If they do get lost, many pilots now quickly declare that fact early on 121.5... often they are inside CAS & we take action to exit CAS and deconflict with CAT. If they weren’t confident about calling on 121.5, they would spend more time trying to sort themselves out & CAT would be getting unexpeditious recoveries or even go around.

4. As for the suggestion of naming & shaming, when ac tx on 121.5 we get a DF fix on that ac. The DF display sits approx 6 inches away from our radar displays which have all ORCAM squawks callsign code converted i.e. your callsign is displayed on our radar. It takes seconds to identify who is saying what........ Incidentally OC LATCC(Mil) was sat next to me a few minutes ago & he is leaning towards the idea of "naming & shaming".


In the 15 mins or so that this has taken me to write there has been one training fix on 121.5 and 11 CAT transmissions.... make that 13!

DD


His last line says’s it all really. So to all those above FL100...please button it.:oh: Remember the person responsible for minimising calls on 121.5 is the chap in the broom cupboard at Swanwick..the D&D controller and he'll do this by telling you that SAROPS are on!!

To all the GA - crack on - better to get the words fuddled when the donk is at idle rather than wait till it happens for real!

H&K Fred!:cool:

[Oxidant]

4. As for the suggestion of naming & shaming, when ac tx on 121.5 we get a DF fix on that ac. The DF display sits approx 6 inches away from our radar displays which have all ORCAM squawks callsign code converted i.e. your callsign is displayed on our radar. It takes seconds to identify who is saying what........ Incidentally OC LATCC(Mil) was sat next to me a few minutes ago & he is leaning towards the idea of "naming & shaming".


Please just do it! If as a result the idiot(s) concerned have their licence pulled...... then the penny may drop.....................:rolleyes:


BTW, Quick question for the Mods. Why has this been moved (again) from "Rumours & News"? Where in my humble opinion it would be viewed by those most at fault.

[S-Works]

What an interesting thread. My hat goes off to DX for having the wherewithal t realise she had a problem and make the call. Also impressive service from D&D above and beyond the call of duty methinks. Well done guys.

As for the Guard Police, well enough has been said of those idiots.

[jamestkirk]

Your constant protestations that practise pans etc clutter up 121.5 is complete rubbish; end of!, as you put it.

D&D likes PPL'ers whilst training to know what to do and to cal them for (practise) help. Actually, D&D sometimes called ATC where i flew from and asked the tower to ask the flying schools to give them a call.

It is vitally important that the pilots who are navigating VFR around the country know how to get help and understand that it will not get them into trouble by doing so.

And I speak as a commercial pilot and FI.

[Lurking123]

I recollect a report from a commercial pilot who said that he had turned-off 121.5 because of the endless Practice Pans on 121.5. ISTR that the CAA queried with him exactly how many there had been at 0400 on a Sunday morning. :ok:

[G SXTY]

If I was a student or inexperienced PPL reading this, the hostility displayed by some 'professional' pilots might make me think twice about calling D&D if I got into trouble. For God's sake don't

I've had my fair share of flying 152s in poor VMC, but now spend my days flying airliners in class G airspace. Nothing worries me more than the thought of a light aircraft stumbling around low level, 'uncertain of position' but not talking to anyone in case they get shouted at.

I'll just have to live with the trauma of turning box 2 down for 30 seconds. :rolleyes:

[DX Wombat]

G SXTY, I couldn't agree more. It can be frightening enough without the added stress of the highly UNprofessional commercial pilots yarping on at you because you are transmitting on 121.5. It needs to be stopped as soon as possible before someone is killed as a result of this interference.

To anyone who may have a problem when flying PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE call D&D as soon as you realise things are not right. They don't bite, they are not some sort of aviation Police Force, they are NOT there to criticise you - and they won't. What they will do is treat you courteously, kindly and very efficiently. You will NOT be in trouble for calling them but you could well be if you don't. Take absolutely NO notice of the unprofessional commercial pilots who may pester you, they are, as I have said previously, highly unprofessional, lacking in their implementation of their duty of care towards you and a thorough disgrace to the companies for which they fly.

[Fuji Abound]

The answer is simple:

If you have the capacity when you are on guard and the someone interupts to remind you say the immortal words:

"Aircraft transmitting, say your call sign"

:D

[Genghis the Engineer]

Somebody remind me, what callsign do D&D use when they transmit? I assume it's something that leaves the listener in no doubt of who they are and that in the UK they own the frequency?

G

[ATCO Fred]

D&D callsign 'London centre'

[Genghis the Engineer]

Well that's pretty clear! Presumably the guard police don't try to police that callsign at least?

G

[west lakes]

and us being sworn at over 121.5 by CAT


From point 2 in the quote ATCO Fred's post above

[172driver]

D&D callsign 'London centre'

Which would explain why US pilots (if indeed it is them) react so strongly. Why don't D&D get a unique callsign that cannot be confused ?

[Genghis the Engineer]

What's ambiguous about "London Centre" - it sounds firmly "official"! If I heard a conversation on RT with "LA Centre" (I've no idea if such a callsign exists) I'd stay out of the way and let them get on with it, unless I had my own emergency to talk about.

G

[Kiltie]

DX I assume you are a light aircraft pilot? I fly both light aircraft and airliners and am just as sick to death of Guard Police as you. I held a short discussion with London Centre on 121.5 yesterday to report an ELT signal I was picking up from FL400 and was chastised by a "colleague" for being "on guard". Unfortunately he was British so it's not just limited to the Americans.

Guard Police are in a minority but I agree we hear it so often it sounds like every airline pilot in the world has joined in.:ugh:

[India Four Two]

D&D callsign 'London centre'

Years ago, flying out of Shawbury, we used to call Preston Centre for Practice Pans. Does London Centre now handle D&D traffic for the whole of the UK?

[ChristiaanJ]

Guard Police are in a minority but I agree we hear it so often it sounds like every airline pilot in the world has joined in.It would be interesting to see the numbers.....
For every "guard police" idiot, how many "regulars" monitor 121.5 and do NOT interfere?
T'is true that a "small minority" can make a "big mess".

CJ

[172driver]

What's ambiguous about "London Centre" - it sounds firmly "official"! If I heard a conversation on RT with "LA Centre" (I've no idea if such a callsign exists) I'd stay out of the way and let them get on with it, unless I had my own emergency to talk about.

Well, exactly. In the US 'XX Center' is roughly the equivalent of 'XX Info' or 'XX Radar' in some countries. IOW a regional controller. E.g. flying into an L.A. airport you would be talking to L.A./SoCal Center, then Approach, TWR, GND.

For someone not familiar with this UK particularity it can very easily sound as if someone was interfering with what, in the US, is a very important frequency. Don't forget, it's the UK that is non-standard here. No other country (AFAIK) has anything like D&D. Everywhere else I at least have flown (and that includes quite a few places), you do get a FIS (or RIS in the UK - another deviation from standard...) w/o problems, same, usually for CAS transits. No need for D&D.

I am not trying to slag off D&D here, btw, but it just seems weird that this has to be done on 121.5 with an ambiguous (at least in an international context) callsign.

[Lurking123]

Erm, can we get back on track? It seems to me that we are left with the following:

The UK chooses to do its alerting and fixing service (an ICAO requirement) on 121.5. Unique across the world, this facility is second to none but, at the same time, rather upsets those who do not understand the capability.

CAT has rarely used/listened to 121.5 unless it has been a chat freq, football score retrieval system etc etc. In recent years, CAT has been required to monitor 121.5 to avoid potentially embarrassing situations.

Under ICAO principles, it is the sovereign state or designated FIR authority who has the responsibility to manage/police 121.5. I can't recollect any of the Annexes derogating that authority to bored aircrew.

The bit I don't get is how a pilot cannot manage his/her comm box such that 121.5 is whispering in the background whilst they monitor their primary freq at 95dBa. As an air traffiker (and somewhat low-average PPL), I'm quite happy juggling a couple of freqs at a time.

D&D controllers should be a little more forthright. For too long they have bitten their lips when some halfwit has chuntered on the emergency freq as the controller tries to help a pilot in a pickle.

The UK isnt going to change it's stance; why should it?

[BigEndBob]

So why do the airlines have to monitor 121.50 in Europe?
Surely if they get intercepted then they change to 121.50 and try to establish communication with interceptor or ask whats going on the primary frequency.

[Cricket23]

I'm a little confused, but then that's easily done!

What does the phrase "talking in guard" actually mean? What was the person trying to achieve?

I'm a little at a lose to understand what these 'guard police' think they're doing?

Sorry if it's obvious.

C23

[ShyTorque]

The problem with folk proclaiming about "correct and incorrect" use here is that a mere personal opinion might, in some circumstances, be mistakenly taken as gospel by an inexperienced pilot.

In UK, D&D have done a sterling job, using 121.5 and 243.0 for many years, certainly for longer than the three and a half decades I've been flying. The recent "claim" to 121.5 by some airline pilots, who now arrogantly and ignorantly believe that D&D and others should get off "their" frequency cannot go unchallenged.

I believe that these pilots themselves are at fault because in truth the "on air" complainers obviously can't effectively manage their radios in the manner of a professional pilot. In most cases they should "zip lip", allow D&D to do their job, and submit an MOR about the incident causing them concern, rather than blocking the frequency themselves.

I also believe the time has now come for D&D to begin occurence logging and take formal action against misuse of the emergency frequency. By that I mean action against the uncallsigned complainers who think they have some divine right to "evict" others from the airwaves.

The use of 121.5 by others can be an inconvenience at times, but as a mere single pilot I can still effectively monitor that frequency for 99% of my airborne time by simply TURNING DOWN THE VOLUME CONTROL when required, so that the distracting chatter is reduced to an acceptable but still audible level.

Just my opinion.

[FantomZorbin]

DX Wombat

Speaking as an ex-D&D inmate (some years ago) I could not agree with you more. It was painful/frustrating to hear someone in need of help struggle with the R/T to try and find the correct phraseology ... when the chips are down use the R/T like a b****y telephone - we can 'sort out the paperwork' when the a/c is safely on the ground.

As for the so called 'Guard Police' - those antics merely reflect the total lack of airmanship and unprofessional nature of the perpertrator. If the circumstance is so dire file a MOR (or whatever it is called now). But there again laziness dictates that it is so much easier to press the TX and feel a perverted sense of righteousness.

Regarding D&D issuing a more forthright rebuke when the occasion demands - fine and dandy ... as long as the ATCEEB and the LEO etc. don't catch you:uhoh:

[ChristiaanJ]

The UK chooses to do its alerting and fixing service (an ICAO requirement) on 121.5. Unique across the world, this facility is second to none but, at the same time, rather upsets those who do not understand the capability.
Apologies from this dinosaur, familiar with VHFDF technology and Gloster Meteors and Hunters, but having difficulties understanding why such a basic and useful service is being slagged off by the CAT fraternity....

My bold and underline.

If this is an ICAO requirement, where (i.e., on what frequency, or what frequencies) is this requirement met everywhere else in the world?
Or is it indeed unique to the UK?

CJ

[India Four Two]

C23,

I'll try to answer your question. 'Guard' is an American military term for an Emergency frequency, in this context 121.5 VHF and 243.0 UHF. Back when I flew UAS Chipmunks, I don't ever remember hearing the term used within the RAF, but I presume the term is in more common use these days.

Since there is nothing like the UK D&D service in the US, American pilots (particularly ex-military ones) tend to view the frequency as sacrosanct and view any traffic, other than an obvious Mayday, as being on the wrong frequency. Hence the tendency to butt in with "You're on Guard!".

"Kick the tires, light the fires, first one off is Lead, brief on Guard!"

I42

[Lurking123]

Christaan, I've just re-read my post and sorry for the confusion. ICAO and IMO (the boat drivers) have developed a IAMSAR manual which provides guidance for the coordinated activity responding to an incident. ICAO also have their SAR manual. Somewhere in that lot are SARPs regarding use of frequencies and the manner in which vessels (aircraft and ships) should be fixed. My word "requirement" should have been "recommendation". :uhoh:

[Cricket23]

Thanks India Four Two. I wondered what is behind this strange expression.

Sounds like our American friends need a bit of (re)training.

C23

[jollyrog]

It seems the technology exists to easily identify the offenders. Whether the will does is another matter.

Can't one of the representative bodies write to the CAA/NATS and press for firm and public action against offenders?

I've seen CAA documents studying/enforcing the misuse of 123.45 which seems like a lesser offence. If they have time to devote to that, they should be pressed to devote equal time to 121.5

[ChristiaanJ]

Thanks Lurking123, that clarifies matters!

[Genghis the Engineer]

So why do the airlines have to monitor 121.50 in Europe?
Surely if they get intercepted then they change to 121.50 and try to establish communication with interceptor or ask whats going on the primary frequency.

(1) Because they can at no cost to anybody.

(2) Because they are often in the best place to receive somebody else's distress call. Not on 121.5 but I've certainly appreciated an airliner overhead relaying a message for me before now that ATC couldn't receive - possibly avoiding in at least one case D&D notification as I descended into a non-radio strip on an island in the Hebrides.



Incidentally, I'm definite that the term "Guard" was in use within the RAF in the 1980s for 121.5.

G

[moggiee]

Incidentally, I'm definite that the term "Guard" was in use within the RAF in the 1980s for 121.5.

G
It certainly was when I joined the RAF in 1983. It also, of course, applies to the equivalent UHF frequency of 243.0

The term is MUCH older than 1980s, though.

[Lurking123]

Crystal radios with 18(?) pre-set studs (freqs). Flick past the last one, through the "guard" switch and you'll find yourself on 243.0.

About the only thing I remember from ?? Cse, 7 FTS RAF Church Fenton. :uhoh:

[dublinpilot]

I wonder if changing the call sign from "London Centre" to something like "London Distress" would have any effect? It would make it more obvious that this is an official service, and that it was transmitting on the correct frequency!

On the down side, I expect some people might be more reluctant to call "London Distress" rather than "London Centre" :sad:

[ChristiaanJ]

Crystal radios with 18(?) pre-set studs (freqs). Flick past the last one, through the "guard" switch and you'll find yourself on 243.0.I know the radios you're talking about.
The explanation sounds so simple, and so improbable, that it's most likely right...... :D

... changing the call sign from "London Centre" to something like "London Distress"... I see I am not the only one wondering about the callsign...

Why not "London Guard"?
Less 'loaded' than "London Distress".
And everybody already seems to recognise the 'name' of the frequency.

Or "London Centre, on Guard"?
Would provide continuity with the current callsign, AND would notify the nitwits, that D&D is already very well aware they are on guard!

[Lurking123]

Here you can just see the G set on the pre-set knob (left hand side). You can also see T/R+G selected on mode to the right. This was (is?) the standard operating mode where you would have Tx/Rx selected on you primary freq (the knob on the left) and also monitored Guard.

http://i12.ebayimg.com/08/i/000/d8/a6/2c20_1.JPG

So, monitoring Guard has been routine in the UK for quite a while. The RAF don't seem to have a problem.

[ChristiaanJ]

Thanks for the pic, Lurking 123!
What was "behind" that CU? Something more sophisticated than a T1154, no doubt. :rolleyes:
Sorry, I'm going off-topic here, maybe worth a discussion on "Aviation History and Nostalgia"?

CJ

[FantomZorbin]

Lurking123

That surely must be an ARC52 set - pretty good until you tried to 're-stud' the numbers whilst airborne:uhoh:!

[moggiee]

I spent many a happy (and some not so happy) flight sitting behind one of those in a JP3A at Linton-on-Ouse.

[flybymike]

Fascinating insight for us ancient but non military aviators chaps!

[ShyTorque]

When I joined we had those on some of our front line aircraft too. It was a real revelation when they were upgraded to a radio where the pilot could actually dial VHF frequencies.

Some of the older UHF ones still had real crystals inside. Due to the very limited number of "studs" available, if going out of area we had to ask the engineers to "recrystallise" the radio, to allow us to speak on the frequencies we needed. :ok:

[flyboy 69]

why is aviation full of unhelpful idiots ???

[DX Wombat]

why is aviation full of unhelpful idiots It's not. The problem is the small minority of idiots who give the rest of the good, professional people a bad name. It happens in other industries / services / the NHS, etc too. Just as in the NHS they can make their presence felt at the most inapropriate time with potentially disastrous consequences. The vast majority of pilots both Commercial and Private always act professionally but it's the handful of unprofessional idiots who get noticed.

[jamestkirk]

Just think, if we had the cure for those idiots, we would make a fortune. You would have to force feed them it but that would only add the the experience.

We could then disect them for medical science, but I think only hot air would come out, leaving a useless, yet pungent shell.

We can dream!

[moggiee]

We could then disect them for medical science, but I think only hot air would come out, leaving a useless, yet pungent shell........
.....which would be set for a long, successful career in politics.

[SNS3Guppy]

Sounds like our American friends need a bit of (re)training.


Hardly. Too often, however, it seems that if it's not done the british way, it's just not done right. Or so the brits would have us believe.

So far as DX Wombat's actions go, she elected to use the tools available to her in arranging for the safety of the flight. Whether an emergency situation existed or not isn't particularly relevant. As the Pilot in Command, she acted within the scope of her responsibility to do what she felt was necessary and appropriate to ensure the safe handling of the airplane and a safe conclusion to the flight. Clearly as she has initiated and continued to post in the thread, she was right in doing so.

However, having said that, the thread deserves further comment. I've spent a number of years performing search and rescue services in various capacities, including searching for and finding ELT's, locating missing water craft, hikers, skiers, and aircraft. I've done this from the air and on foot, and have received and relayed a number of emergency calls by other aircraft or personnel on the ground, over 121.5. I've had a few occasions to use it myself, and have always maintained a pratice of guarding it (the reason it's called "Guard," by the way).

I've seen CAA documents studying/enforcing the misuse of 123.45 which seems like a lesser offence.


The idiot frequency, 123.45 is actually the prescribed air to air reporting frequency for North Atlantic operations, on which ride reports and other air to air traffic is provided. It's commonly used throughout the world for that purpose, on the larger scale.

CAT has rarely used/listened to 121.5 unless it has been a chat freq, football score retrieval system etc etc. In recent years, CAT has been required to monitor 121.5 to avoid potentially embarrassing situations.


This is untrue. 121.5 has been guarded in the cockpit for many years. I've always done it myself, it's always been the policy of each company for whom I've flown, I've always done it privately, and do it when I'm flying large or small aircraft. It has nothing to do with 09/11; it was a practice long before that event, and it's still quite appropriate today.

I've no idea what "potentially embarassing situations" might be avoided by guarding 121.5, but I do know of numerous ELT's that get picked up on guard, as well as distress calls and other emergency traffic. Most places in the world, if you broadcast on guard, you're far more likely to be monitored by, and receive a response from commercial traffic than an ATC facility. There are more ears listening on 121.5 by commercial traffic (corporate, airline, etc) than ATC by a wide margin, and there are many places in the world where there's simply no ATC coverage to hear your cry for help, relay a message, etc. Overhead commercial traffic can and frequently does this.

I have NEVER heard a spurious call on 121.5 from a light aircraft, but I've heard hundreds from airliners. Glass houses and stones come to mind.


I've heard hundreds of frivolous calls from light traffic on 121.5. I hear it all the time. All over the globe, in fact. More in the US and Europe than anywhere else, but I do hear it all the time.

To all the GA - crack on - better to get the words fuddled when the donk is at idle rather than wait till it happens for real!


Translated into English, that might have been an intelligent comment...but we may never know. :}

I am really struggling to decide if the "Guard Police" are worse than an idiot that uses the emergency service for their own personal vectoring service in marginal weather.


I thought that comment was well put, though perhaps not particularly applicable to the original poster.

Just because airliners suddenly have to monitor it since 9/11 doen't mean that it's suddenly become an airliner emergency frequency only. If you want an airliner only emergency frequency then ask for a frequency for that, rather than expecting everyone else to change.


Non sequitor. 121.5 has nothing to do with being an "airline frequency." That more commercial ears are listening to it and guarding it than anyone else is merely a fact of life. Its never been an airline emergency frequency, it's often an airliner that responds. There's been no "suddenly having to monitor" since 09/11. The requirement has always been there, and the monitoring has always gone on.

Nobody has asked for a change. Just some respect for 121.5; it's not a chat room. Unless you have a bonafide situation for which your lone voice should have priority above all others, then stay off. Whomever you are.

I will say, however, that because I do hear a great deal of frivolous chatter on guard, advising others to stay off gaurd isn't unwarranted. Sometimes a simple reminder that "you're on guard" may be adequate to handle the situation, just as a quick "blocked" over the radio lets others know that the transmission has been covered, and something important might have been missed.

It is not rocket science to manage a Jet, it is however Rocket science to have a professional courteous attitude as you can see.


Actually, it really is rocket science to manage a jet, in many cases. This doesn't mean it's particularly complicated, but between the use of high altitude psyiology, the requirement for a fairly well rounded understanding of the physics involved, high speed aerodynamics, and some fairly sophisticated equipment, it is rocket science. That's really neither here nor there...but then a professional, courteous attitude has nothing at all to do with rocket science...making the above quote both nonsensical and nonsequitor.

Reminding one that they are inadvertantly on guard is not unprofessional, nor unwarranted. Nor is it in any way related to rockets, or the science thereof.

There is no small irony in Americans trying to enforce R/T discipline. Before 911 domestic flights rarely monitored guard and international types used it mostly for ride reports and sports scores over the water. After 911, it is monitored religiously even on domestic flights lest you be intercepted and have to fill out paperwork.


Again with this. Guard has long been monitored, not just by airlines, but by all kinds of aerial traffic, from the private pilot on up. When I flew Grand Canyon tours, eons ago, we monitored guard...and it was used, too. Even in that limited domain, I picked up emergency calls by river runners with a broken leg or an illness, needing an evacuation. The only possible means they had for getting a call out was traffic flying directly overhead, due to their being in the bottom of a very deep hole in the ground, and no other communication available. That was well before 09/11, too.

You self-appointed “Guard Police” are a menace and, if you carry on will eventually cause a fatal accident by your constant interfering and the stress you cause by doing so. You sit happily in your nice, comfy, super-equipped aircraft flying along in the beautiful blue sky above the clouds with not a care in the world except perhaps what you are going to have for your next meal, or what is in the day’s newspapers. I, and many like me, am restricted to flying beneath the cloud in conditions of which you are completely unaware. You seem incapable of understanding that in order to help someone it is necessary for the person requiring the help and D&D to speak to each other using 121.5. Do you have crystal balls to do this for you in the USA? We certainly don’t over here.


That was a little over the top. I'm one of those who sit in my nice, comfy aircraft. It's not super equipped, but it wil do. I do have a care in the world, I don't get the day's newspapers, and I have the weather to deal with as well...not just on a 50 mile flight between local airports, but globally. I cover a lot more ground, hear a lot more transmissions, and field a lot more calls requesting help. It may simply be relaying for ATC, or it may be someone in the middle of the atlantic, ferrying a light airplane and in trouble, who needs a voice to hear them.

As for being completely unaware of your flying conditions, how do you suppose most of us made it to our "nice comfy cockpits?" By spending a lot of time in bad weather doing all kinds of flying right where you are. Many of us still do. We're quite aware of your flying conditions, of your needs, and of your discomfort when pressed into conditions which may try you or make you afraid. We've all been there, and we do understand. We also see and hear a lot more than you do, have probably been flying a lot longer than you for a great many more hours in a lot more places, and this isn't our first time around the patch.

When I hear traffic needing help, I listen. If no jumps in to help, I'll do so. If I hear traffic, I note what's going on, and if it's inappropriate, you bet I'll jump in to remind the traffic that they might be better off somewhere other than guard. That makes me a guard cop? Fine. I've spent more than a few hours running down ELT's and handling emergencies in which my own work was hampered by those who inappropriately used the frequency. I've had to lead increadulus and angered private pilots by their shirt sleeves to their airplane to show them that yes, it really was their ELT causing allthe ruckus, and no, I wasn't making a sweeping condemnation of their ability to land an airplane, and please, for the love of pete and all things suede, just shut the damn thing off and sir, have a nice day. Been there, done that...don't be in such a hurry to hang all that condemnation on those of us overhead listening to your call. It may be that one day it's one of us who recognizes the value of 121.5 that's saving your life.

You hear what's in your immediate area on the few occasions you go fly...and perhaps that does include some flight crew somewhere making ignorant calls on the emergency frequency. I make it around the world once, sometimes twice a month, in the air, regularly as clockwork, hear a lot more over a much wider area...and the inappropriate use of 121.5 for non-priority calls does get tiresome. It's very often two guys trying to sort out where they are, or arrange a formation flight, as they play weekend warrior in their Cessna or Maule. So when one of us happens to call out and suggest another channel, yes, we really do have your best interest in mind.

Even if you don't like it.

Since there is nothing like the UK D&D service in the US, American pilots (particularly ex-military ones) tend to view the frequency as sacrosanct and view any traffic, other than an obvious Mayday, as being on the wrong frequency. Hence the tendency to butt in with "You're on Guard!".


There surely is something like the UK D&D service in the US. Flight Service has been around for many years providing routine and emergency services, including airborne Direction Finding (DFing) services to pilots in need. In the US, the use of 121.5 is generally reserved for real emergencies or loss of communication situations, with Flight Watch being available on different frequencies (such as 122.0). Recent political changes in the administering of flight service in the US have damaged that, and DF capability has been gradually reduced in many locations, but it's something that many of us grew up with ages ago. Our own system has been far more advanced, and far more pervasive, than what you have in the UK, for many years. Simply because you haven't used it doesn't mean it doesn't exist, and certainly for reasons already provided, you might do well not to assume pilots monitoring guard merely blurt out or butt in.

Guard is a guarded frequency for a reason.

[Final 3 Greens]

Hardly. Too often, however, it seems that if it's not done the british way, it's just not done right. Or so the brits would have us believe.


I am disappointed that you made such a petty comment, which does not align with the excellent input you usually give.

When flying in UK airspace, the UK rules apply to 121.5.

Pilots who do not respect the UK laws need education or if that does not work, punitive action.

I have flown in the USA and made a point of learning the FARs (by self study and formal training) and respecting the different ways things are done, even when they felt alien.

That was as a private pilot, I therefore have some trouble understanding why professional pilots cannot make themselves aware of the UK procedures and comply with these.

[frontlefthamster]

Hmmm, the OP said

You self-appointed “Guard Police” are a menace and, if you carry on will eventually cause a fatal accident by your constant interfering and the stress you cause by doing so.

...and I can't quite agree with that, as it was he who nearly 'caused an accident' by flying in unsuitable conditions and losing his way.

121.5 used to be the distress frequency for puddle-jumpers.

Now, like it or not, it's the de facto anti-hijack/loss of comms frequency. Those of us at the front of big aircraft are thoroughly fed up of having to monitor it, and the situation needs to change.

In one respect, the OP's prediction may carry some water... There is every possibility that the accident will occur to a public transport aircraft, and be 'caused by' puddle-jumper practice pans.

[Lurking123]

SNS3, a thorough post. Turning back a few pages, I think the problem centres around those who jump-in on Guard without actually listening to see whether the call is bona fide.

[Final 3 Greens]

There is every possibility that the accident will occur to a public transport aircraft, and be 'caused by' puddle-jumper practice pans.

What nonsense.

The CAA study shows that the vast majority of 121.5 clutter is created by commercial air transport, not general aviation.

[Fuji Abound]

What a load of B$%££".

The recent comments are all very interesting and nothing wrong with a bit of in depth analysis but in terms of the jist of the original post the thread is out of hand.

The real issue is there is no excuse for jumping in on any frequency without listening first. If you listen first you would realise their was emergency traffic on the channel and leave them be.

Listen before you speak and there is far more chance what you say will make sense.

Seems pretty simple really?

[SNS3Guppy]

Turning back a few pages, I think the problem centers around those who jump-in on Guard without actually listening to see whether the call is bona fide.


Wise words for many aspects of aviation, not just the radio. Fast hands kill; the urge to do something before sitting on one's hands and thinking about it for a time is more often the cause of problems than anything else. In fact, the most dangerous thing in the cockpit is the pilot.

Taking time to evaluate and decide before taking action will generaly prevent one from making any situation worse, and turning the routine into an emergency.

When I had an engine failure on an active fire a couple of years ago, I wasn't on gaurd and didn't have time to turn to it, and it wouldn't have helped. I was talking to other fire traffic on a tactical VHF frequency, and simply keyed the mike and said "Tanker 455 has a problem." The radio immediately went dead, a slight pause, and the Leadplane overseeing my drop came back with "can you make the road ahead?" He didn't attempt to diagnose, didn't ask what went wrong, he abandoned the past and went straight to the present.

Another pilot on the frequency, with whom I'd just made a formation descent to the drop target down inside the burning canyon (where I now was) jumped in with "Is your engine surging?" Anyone else, it would have been in intrusion, but he'd flown the same airplane a year before, and was aware of a unique potential problem with that specific airplane engine installation. I said "no," and he was off, with no further communication. Very professional.

From that point on until I came to a rest on the hillside, there was only one more transmission. I elected not to use the oil top road ahead that lead out of the canyon, due to the number of personnel and emergency vehicles parked there, and delayed jettisoning my load for the same reason. I couldn't afford much delay, and the lead immediately came back with a very stern, very loud "LOSE THE LOAD!" to jog me back to reality. I'd obtained a slight torque increase for about three seconds, and had squandered those three seconds dwelling on the hope of limping to an airport. His call brought me back as the torque dropped to zero and I made my final turn to the hillside as I exited the canyon downwind of the fire.

Nobody said a word as I came to a rest, and everything else from there was done off frequency on other radios. Unbeknownst to me a helicopter pilot dropping just outsidethe mouth of the canyon was monitoring, and retained his bucket load, and followed me. When I looked up, he was hovering in front with a bucket load of water, right in front of the nose of the airplane, staring at me intently and watching the black smoke pour out of my engine intake. I began to secure the cockpit and ensure fuel was shut off, electrical shut off, and reached to pull the canopy jettison handle. The leadplane came up and asked if everything was okay, I advised him I was attempting to Egress, and that was the end of the call. Very concise, very professional, and as I went over the side of the airplane in tow of an extinguisher and my gear, the lead shot overhead about 200', closely looking me over. The helicopter was flying tight circles around the airplane looking for fire or an ignition source on which to drop, and the coordination was all done for me without my saying hardly a word.

That's how it ought to work, but seldom does. In that case, everybody was on the same page, everyone trained under the same system, flew under the same system, and was working closely together and "in the loop."

In the SAR system, be it Flight Watch in the US, D&D in the UK, or working with air traffic control, the standardization and training is there. The weak link is usually the pilot, which makes some sense because the emergency communication is generally one of the least trained areas, and the pilot may already have his or her hands full. The procedures are laid out very clearly for working with the other parties involved, and you may generally rest assured they'll act very professionally and precisely within the guidelines they've been given...including standard phraseology and procedures.

The challenge, in fact the necessity, is to learn them well enough you can mesh and use the full capability of the services available to you when things come undone. When all else fails, fall back to "plain english," simply state what you have, what you need, and your intentions, and then do it. Don't feel like you need to be precise or exact, don't feel bad if you miss a "mayday" or don't formally declare the day to be one of mahem and emergency. Make your call, and do it; it's your right and responsibility as PIC.

If others attempt to become involved who ought not (the "guard police," for example), the best policy is to set them aside and ignore them...or do as DX Wombat did and tell them to shut up while you handle your problem. Remember, yours is the priority. If no one is inclined to give it to you, then take it. It's your right.

[BRL]

Interesting post. Thanks for sharing that. :)

[Frankly Mr Shankly]

Without reading the plethora of replies DX, as an airline pilot and PPL weekender, albeit less and less frequently now (the pay's not all that) the answer is quite straightforward to me.

If a pilot needs assistance, 121.5 is absolutley fine. And pardon the vocab, but bollocks to anyone else trying to be officious on guard. If a pilot needs help, he needs help. It could well be a young 18 year old on a solo nav ex, last thing he needs to hear is some idiot with NO COMMON SENSE (!!!!!!) arguing the toss about who needs help and who doesnt. Let DnD sort that out.

Guys if you need help, call them. Rather that than an event that could ruin your day. We can all argue the toss in the bar afterwards.

[AirplanesSuck]

In the states the guard police are generally there to immediately point out how silly you are when you accidentally transmit on 121.5. Usually things about gate positions or ground transportation for VIP's or what's on the tube tonight. Only rarely have I heard a pilot repeatedly transmit a football score several times on guard. Most pilots realize (without direction from policemen) that they have tranmitted on the wrong freq.

The original poster, while a bit over-excited, is right. Just relax you guard police. Read a paper or something.

I'll readily agree that our friends across the pond are better trained and disciplined in RT. However, my American colleagues don't have a monopoly on being doofuses. SNS3Guppy's posts are spot on. All the cushy-seated jet pilots flew little slow planes in the weather. We're looking out for you, too. Whether you're in a hot-air balloon or a gyrocopter, I think we're all ready to shut up and help when someone gets in a tight spot.

[boredcounter]

...From an Ops guy with 20 years in.

Given the initial post, who at FL370 would call 'Mayday' on 121.5 within say 250 miles of the UK? Would you not call that on the assigned frq and sqwak?

In this case, I'm just guessing here, 'All stations x3 stop transmitting 121.5 monitoring a distress call, xxx132 out, handed over to the next guy within range, Company has ACARS and you know whose about, if you dont, company does. Monitor 121.5 and assist where poss G-~~~~ will be the return ACARS from me.

A lost, caught out by the weather wannabe does not have that benifit, just 121.5 in the UK. Help them as best you can, they may be your RHS one one day.

A practise PAN from a PA-28 will soon be cancelled if you call 121.5 with a real Mayday.


Bored

[slam_dunk]

Do you guys realise that a practice pan broadcasted in the UK can be heard within +/- 300 NM from your position?

a bit annoying to a lot of people :ouch:

[rich_g85]

That's good to know.

+/- 300 miles? Think about it.

[Ye Olde Pilot]

Interesting...

I'll have to try that at ground level.

[moreflaps]

After reading this thread, it seems to me that some useful ideas for the use of 121.5 could be obtained from how Ch.16 is used in the maritime environment.
Ch.16 is emergency as well as (sometimes) for hailing. Control of 16 in an emergency is guaranteed by MAYDAY SILONCE. After establishing your routine contact on 16 you immediately switch to another agreed channel etc. All mayday/pan comms are prefixed by mayday/pan. It seems to work well in my experience.

Cheers

[Russell Gulch]

Slam Dunk, Has it taken you three years to work that out?

Previous post: 14th Jul 2008 04:55

[Whirlygig]

It's usually preferred to ressurrect an old thread than to start a new one and at least the search function was used.

Cheers

Whirls