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Box Brownie
11th Oct 2016, 18:18
Thank you Union Jack. When you have known so many of theses chaps as friend, and really know them you can only wonder at their courage. Earlier this year I recorded a 101 (SD) Squadron Lancaster pilot. He is happy for his tale to be told on this thread. I shall be seeing him later this week to go over his training in more detail. There are three more WW11 pilots I have on tape but they can wait.

Union Jack
11th Oct 2016, 18:50
When you have known so many of theses chaps as friend, and really know them you can only wonder at their courage.

Or, to paraphrase what Danny has said more than once, they fought the war they were given.:ok:

There are three more WW11 pilots I have on tape but they can wait.

BB, you are a tease - and, if I may so, perhaps more of a Hasselblad really!:D

Jack

MPN11
11th Oct 2016, 18:55
Too much info ... I shall have to read that tomorrow.

I just LOVE "Wg Cdr X" :)

Box Brownie
11th Oct 2016, 19:37
MPN - we haven't finished John Dunbar yet!

Danny42C
11th Oct 2016, 20:57
Jagan (#9488),

Tantalising, but we only have figures for the first four weeks, totalling some 15 hours, but do not show how much of this was true "solo" ie, no one in the aircraft except the pupil, "dual" (instructor in back seat to advise, can fly the thing but cannot trim, and has no u/c controls, only stick, rudder and throttle. How many weeks did the Course last ?

I went to war with 26.30 total on VV (only first 0.35 dual) over 3 months. Would include approx 100 practice high-level dives.

Q: Where did the OTU Instructors come from ? (Quis custodiet ?)

Or pupil in back, instructor in front, pupil in back can do little more than follow-through instructor and fly on stick and rudder but no more.

In contrast, I flew 10.05 in 26 days in Jan'43, but only the first 35 mins was "air experience" in the back, all the rest solo (and for ever after, although I would have a nav, or a gunner, or any odd bod, for in the early days you had to have someone in the back to work the 'wobble pump' if necessary (suppose T.C-T. would say I was the "sole" pilot !).
Surprised that the W.Ops worked C/W. There was only R/T in our aircraft - no morse key I remember.

Questions, questions !

Danny.

David Thompson
11th Oct 2016, 22:04
Apologies for this interruption but Danny , please check your PM's and Email via PPRuNe .
Thank you

Chugalug2
11th Oct 2016, 22:12
Box Brownie. Very sorry to hear that John's logbook cannot be located. We can only hope that it eventually comes to light. Thank goodness that you had the foresight to photograph the key pages though! The Record of Service is, to say the least, very comprehensive, whereby not only the many units from St Johns Wood onwards are listed, but even the troop ships to and from Canada! Thereafter; Harrogate, Hereford, 6EFTS Sywell (doing the instructing that he had rebelled against in Canada?), before No.18 PEC London (any ideas anyone? Is this when he gets given the L5 job?) Finally to India and 221 Group Comm. Sqn. Is this at last the Sqn ID that has so eluded us? It would seem so, though of course the 30 L5's would have been a part (Flight?) only rather than the entirety of 221 Gp Comm Sqn.

9 days before the rescue attempt he remarks "Hit !!!!". Presumably by something less neutral than the Burma treetops they were wont to brush!

The Wg Cdr at least scores his rank if not his name, the Indian soldier neither (but I'm sure that he wasn't complaining!). Interestingly the Corps Commander is flown three times though not named (no need of course, everyone would know, but do we?) I assume that the Supreme Commander (Mountbatten) was in one of the other aircraft in the four ship formation doing a Beachhead Recce (bit chancy, but who was going to say no?).

All fascinating stuff BB, thank you! It just shows what an invaluable historical document a pilots logbook is (though some are more so than others! ;-).

Box Brownie
12th Oct 2016, 02:27
Thank you Chug. The session at No6 EFTS Sywell was for the intensive short take off and landing course for the thirty pilots John had recruited, prior to them going to India.
Reminds me of the session we did at Sywell when ETPS tried out the Twin Pin during the mid 90's, then with Air Atlantique. I swear we landed and took off from the helipad!
The Corps Commander would be General Messervey.
Re log books, I have two that were found by a friend in a skip. A Navy pilot who flew in Burma. At some stage perhaps some pages can go on the thread.

Danny42C
12th Oct 2016, 16:53
BB (#9509),
...intensive short take off and landing course for the thirty pilots John had recruited...
In what capacity did he "recruit" ? And from where ? Didn't Air Ministry (P2 ?) have any interest in the proceedings ?

In the logbook page, top left, what would you say is written under "Year" ?

And if only it'd been the (next) page with the Monthly Summary, we'd have the exact date, the unit, and (probably) Flight and Squadron Commander's names, too.

I know, I know, patience - and all will be revealed !

Chugalug (my #9401),
...I too, wondered about John, he now seems to be a man of considerable authority (although being a personal pilot to a Lieut-General [Messervy] carrys considerable 'clout' - he's an ADC in all but name)...

With a General behind you, people listen when you tell 'em !

Danny.

ricardian
12th Oct 2016, 17:06
Chugalug (#9475),
No trace Google or Wiki. But I know something of the sort existed (can't ever remember reading the paper, however). But the "SEAC Anson" trundled round the major airfields on a monthly basis, delivering the things, I'm sure (don't think they actually air-dropped). Anybody else remember ?

Danny.
A shaky video of SEAC News (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MD2qkeCd--0)

MPN11
12th Oct 2016, 18:55
Reminds me of the session we did at Sywell when ETPS tried out the Twin Pin during the mid 90's, then with Air Atlantique. I swear we landed and took off from the helipad!Fond memory of the Single Pioneers, operating as C Flt of 20 Sqn at Tengah in the late 60s [ex-209 Sqn, disbanded] and used for FAC work for the Hunters over Malaya. "The last fighter squadron in the RAF operating single-piston aircraft " :D

I had the 'pleasure' of a few trips with them ... an awesome experience, with their STOL capability and ultra low level flying. I vividly remember the back seat getting dark as the flaps came down!

As a Tengah ATCO, I used to have to fit them in with radar and visual circuit patterns with Lightnings, Mirages, Hunters and Canberras. "Orbit the Officers Mess at 300 feet, left hand pattern, I'll call you back" :) I once had one, in a hefty crosswind, which I cleared to land across the runway by the 36 threshold, who then taxied straight ahead into F Dispersal where they lived.

Fg Off Pete Squire [later ACM Sir Peter, etc etc] was one of the early converts to the Single Pin on 20 Sqn. Having done a year or so as an Operational pilot on Hunter 9s*, he was moved to C Flt, and became one of the Sqn's airborne FACs. I have a photo of him receiving his "Op Pot" for the S-Pin in the 'dispersal' on the jungle strip at Gemas in up-country Malaya.

Anyway ... all too modern. Sorry. :(


* and, while I was the Local Controller, ejected over Tengah Village. His 'chute deployed just as I lost sight of him in the tree-tops.

Wander00
12th Oct 2016, 19:56
I remember PS as a cadet at the Towers the entry behind me - ISTR that 89A produced 4 or 5 three* and above - must be some sort of record I would think

Danny42C
12th Oct 2016, 21:20
ricardian (#9511),

So the SEAC News did exist - and the SEAC Anson was not a figment of my imagination !

Thanks, Danny.

Nugget90
13th Oct 2016, 07:37
There has been talk of an elusive 'SEAC News', and although I know nothing of this I do have two copies of the "Journal of the Air Forces India and Far East Edition"Volume 2 Nos 2 and 9 dated 10th of March and 16th of June 1944. Could these 'Journals' be what has been thought to be the 'SEAC News'?

My late father kept these two journals as they both contain poems he contributed whilst attached to Air HQ India before joining No 215 Squadron (Wellington 10s and then Liberators). The first poem, 'Sundial Serenade' was really one way of having a dig at what I take to be the office responsible for postings to outlandish camps, described as '557'. (Danny, do you recall if this was so?) The second poem, 'Temporary Duty - And How' describes being ordered to attend a Tiger Hunt, completely 'tongue in cheek', of course.

Fareastdriver
13th Oct 2016, 09:03
One advantage of the Pioneer was that one could take off from Long Sumado in Borneo, find out that the topographical gradient was steeper than the angle of climb, plop it into the trees and walk back down to the strip so as to tell everybody what happened.

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee224/fareastdriver/1-2-2010_010.jpg (http://s229.photobucket.com/user/fareastdriver/media/1-2-2010_010.jpg.html)

Apologies for the quality of the picture. It's that crap German Agfa film.

Chugalug2
13th Oct 2016, 09:22
Nugget, SEAC News would have covered all three Services by its very nature, whereas your publication sounds as if it is Air Force only related. That's not to say that it didn't come from the same stable. There seems to have been a lot of "media" happening at the same time, ie broadcasting, publishing, filming, and some merging from one into the other as it were. Here is an example on YouTube:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vwufzLrRPI

As usual, I've spent far too long on YouTube! Following link to link I stumbled on this; RAF in Canada and Burma, and all in colour! I would guess that an RAF (RCAF?) cine enthusiast was using his rare colour stock to capture wartime scenes, a la the Helmswell CO.:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBwkYRGnd0s

No Vengeances, Danny, sorry! But an even rarer RAF steed at 19mins in, also an ex-French order bought by the UK Purchasing Commission. Variously ID'd as a Curtiss 75 Mohawk and a P36. Were they one and the same?

Ricardian, thanks for the SEAC News link. Very avant garde! If you'll excuse me I'll just go outside for a moment. I'm feeling just a little bit queasy...

sycamore
13th Oct 2016, 10:43
F-E-D,if I`m not mistaken that is MAcr/F/sgt C*&^%£ll;had one early E-types on 230 at Odious in `67..maybe he sold the wreck for scrap...

MPN11
13th Oct 2016, 12:10
Fareastdriver ... did it buff out? ;)

Stanwell
13th Oct 2016, 12:31
BB,
If you're hankering for a brief sight and sound of a Twin Pin, have a look on the Tube of U under "Twin Pioneer at Wedderburn".
This was a first flight after a bit of work had been done on her.
While she's doing nothing spectacular on that, the sound of those Alvis engines alone does it for me. :ok:

Fareastdriver
13th Oct 2016, 12:51
That's the one. He let me have a go with his Jag one day. It was like driving a supersonic lorry.

Danny42C
13th Oct 2016, 16:28
Nugget90 (#9515),

As far as I remember, it was a sort of tabloid newspaper - but never seeing one (the SEAC Anson only delivered to the major airfields [in the Arakan would be only Chittagong and Dohazari] with paved strips which they could use in the monsoon), I cannot be positive. All the 'kutcha' strips would be mud: we'd all pulled back to W.Bengal till the rains stopped. Never saw it there, either.
...My late father kept these two journals as they both contain poems he contributed whilst attached to Air HQ India before joining No 215 Squadron (Wellington 10s and then Liberators)...
Might there be a possibility of some of that coming our way.......?

Danny.

Box Brownie
13th Oct 2016, 17:20
Thank you Stanwell - takes me back -appreciated.
An interesting photo of the Single Pin - I photographed an Andover at Abingdon that overran the runway and broke it's back - A mother in a wheelchair on the road out side the fence suddenly found herself being propelled at an incredible rate by her daughter!

Back on track, Union jack, I wouldn't dare tease in such company.
Attached is a page of a log book from Flt Lt 'Rusty' Waughman DFC AFC.
He was on fine form today - I am tempted to put his operational tour with 101(SD) Squadron Ludford Magna on the thread before his training. What do people think?

MPN11
13th Oct 2016, 18:00
People really said/wrote "wizard prang"? And we complain today about YoofSpeak? :)

Box Brownie
13th Oct 2016, 18:35
Rusty is a real gentleman, though I have to say at one stage today he did use strong 'modern' language!

MPN11
13th Oct 2016, 18:43
Even the older generation can lapse ... it's the constant exposure to poor grammar, punctuation and strange words :)

Fareastdriver
13th Oct 2016, 19:23
I must have been the laziest administrator in the Air Force. All in the operational flying I did; OK not in a big shooting war like WWII but I never recorded where I had been or who was wanting to shoot at me across three Continents.

The Royal Air Force in the sixties and seventies was undoubtedly the biggest flying club in the World so it probably never occurred to us.

NutLoose
13th Oct 2016, 19:44
Hey Danny, it looks like they are working on getting your beloved Vengeance back in the air.

Vultee Vengeance legacy (http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?139692-Vultee-Vengeance-legacy)

The team behind Classic Wings magazine has/is getting one as an airworthy restoration. I'm not sure about the ID but it has been alluded to in Facebook posts.

Very exciting times.

Danny42C
14th Oct 2016, 12:06
BB (your #9523),
...I am tempted to put his operational tour with 101(SD) Squadron Ludford Magna on the thread before his training. What do people think?...
Yes, please ! Any references to a Sqn Ldr David Brown DSO (would have been the Gunnery Leader) ? He was at Ludford Magna, and I think on 101 about the time.

Was my Auxiliary C.O. on 3608 (Fighter Control) Unit, RAF Thornaby in the '50s (I was his Adj).

Nicer chap never lived,

Danny.

Danny42C
14th Oct 2016, 12:22
MPN11 (#9524),

Yes - but we embodied in a clear English context with correct grammar and syntax.
Anyway, when you've had a "wizard prang", you're entitled to say so !

(#9526),

Exactly so (Homer can nod !)

Danny.

Danny42C
14th Oct 2016, 12:35
Fareastdriver (#9527), ...The Royal Air Force in the sixties and seventies was undoubtedly the biggest flying club in the World so it probably never occurred to us...
The Thirties' RAF was called "The finest Flying Club in England", but I'm not so sure about the '60s and '70s. We all (well, some of us) - had "Careers" to worry about then !)

Danny.

Stanwell
14th Oct 2016, 13:03
Nutty,
Thanks for that Vengeance link.
As for the rumour that EZ999 might be seen airborne anytime soon ... it's best summed up in four words - 'Don't hold your breath'.
She's there in one piece and they'd like to keep it that way - which I think is a pretty good idea.

The only hope of seeing and hearing one flying again is if HARS at Wollongong can find the time and money to cobble one together
from the bits they've inherited from the Boulder scrapyard.
.

Reader123
14th Oct 2016, 13:43
Here is the SEAC Newspaper. As described by its publishers. And you can see it being dropped on airfields. Front Line Newspaper - British Pathé (http://www.britishpathe.com/video/front-line-newspaper)

And - eBay's always good for these things - here are some copies:

WWII Era SEAC (South East Asia Command) Newspaper July 25th 1944, Military, War | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WWII-Era-SEAC-South-East-Asia-Command-Newspaper-July-25th-1944-Military-War-/272391641692?hash=item3f6bce9a5c:g:xPYAAOSwUdlWceQz)

SEAC SOUVENIR South East Asia Command Newspaper | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SEAC-SOUVENIR-South-East-Asia-Command-Newspaper-/222209717454?hash=item33bcbb34ce%3Ag%3AaOIAAOSw3mpXEmMN&nma=true&si=HPQI6wz6QiUOG7DLCYNFKxbs5Gk%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557)

What are those yellow-painted aeroplanes at the end of - and during, I've only flicked through it quickly - the colour film and why are they painted yellow? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBwkYRGnd0s

Danny42C
14th Oct 2016, 14:09
Nutloose (# 9528), ... Hey Danny, it looks like they are working on getting your beloved Vengeance back in the air...
Stories like this have been circulating for some time. "Cooda Shooda" (for one) has some 'gen' on this, if I remember correctly.

Seems there are several groups scouring the Land of Oz for any remaining bits of VV that were not hoovered-up for the Camden Museum rebuild. Think they're all on a hiding to nothing, myself. Any bits found may be from US A-31s or A-35s: they do not necessarily mix. Seventy-five years is a long time.

The Museum specimen looks the best bet to fly - if the Museum would allow. It seems reasonably complete. But why would they ? They've got the only one in the world (so far), if they bust that, there aren't any more !

My attitude is that of the "Doubting Thomas" - "All this will I believe when I shall see !"

Caution: if they do resurrect a A-35 (Vengeance Mk.IV), have a care. This was a Lend-Lease aircraft; it should have been destroyed after VJ. As it hasn't been, they have broken the Lend-Lease Agreement (buy it from us if you want to keep it or destroy it completely if you don't). Nasty letter may come round from US Embassy, enclosing stiff bill (they were around US$65,000, don't know how much discount you might get !)

Camden is in the clear, EZ999 is an A-31 (Vengeance Mk.I), bought and paid for by Whinging Poms and graciously donated to RAAF in WWII. That Camden then went to a lot of trouble to disguise it as a Mk.IV is another matter.

Not fanciful, nearly put me before a Court Martial in India in 1945.

Danny.

MPN11
14th Oct 2016, 14:23
Reader123 ... they're many different training types, in Canada where yellow was the colour!

I don't have time right now to try to ID all the types for you, but plenty of Harvards in there.

Reader123
14th Oct 2016, 14:56
Thanks, I wasn't looking for an identification of all the aircraft type, although I suppose you might have thought that was what I wrote. Clearly I was misled by the title of the film, if they're training aircraft in which case presumably they're not in Burma (for all that the title suggests).

Box Brownie
14th Oct 2016, 15:44
Danny, I have just spoken to Rusty. The Gunnery Leader during his time on the squadron was a Fl Lt Hill. 101 Squadron, because of security reasons, were the only squadron on the base. Rusty recalls that there was a P/O Brown who was a gunner in the crew of F/O McKenna in 1944.

Danny42C
14th Oct 2016, 15:49
BB,

Almost certainly, that's our man. Older than I, so must be dead now.

Thanks,

Danny.

Box Brownie
14th Oct 2016, 18:19
Flt Lt John Dunbar DFC (RIP)

For those following the story, I appear to have found the missing tape.

This should please Chug as there is a section on training in Canada. Perhaps it is best to continue with the story of John's time in Burma so that we have continuity. The tape also contains a second telling of the 'rescue' with added detail.

Chugalug2
14th Oct 2016, 20:12
Well done, BB! Deliver John's story in any order you please, just as long as we can see it. Did you manage to view the Canada/Burma link in my #9517? Plenty of yellow aeroplanes there as you can see! :)

Box Brownie
14th Oct 2016, 20:50
Thank you Chug. Yes to the 'yellow aeroplanes'. Some nice formation flying. The Harvard at the start, FE433, was taken on charge on 14.9.42 and struck off charge on 3.7.47. Units - 1TC, 1AC and 20TT

Attached is a photo taken at Kemble a few weeks ago. The second test flight of a restored Harvard.

Ddraig Goch
15th Oct 2016, 08:02
Hi Danny et al, seeing the yellow Harvards reminded me of something I came across a while ago. I don't know if it has been refered to before but here is the link anyway :Harvards Above: The History Of World War Two RAF Fleet Air Arm Training In Kingston & Gananoque, Ontario, Canada (http://www.harvardsabove.ca/)

I hope these memoirs may be helpful.

Box Brownie
15th Oct 2016, 10:32
Flt Lt John Dunbar DFC (RIP) Five into four won't go

On the 'missing tape' John tells the story of the rescue again, but with a little more detail.

We were asked to go in to pick up four bodies from a place fifty miles behind the Japanese lines, a place we had never heard of, way over the hills the other side of the Satang river. When we did any job behind the lines which involved taking people in or out we were never allowed to know names and there is no record kept of any of those flights, which is a very interesting situation because I asked why the poor pilots were never asked to the 136 Force re unions. The answer I got was “ We never knew who you were”. We had strict instructions not to log these flights. On this particular job all we knew was that there were four people to bring out from this particular location. We knew no more about it, whether they were RAF or Army, they were just bodies to bring out.
As is such, whenever you are landing behind the lines, there was a code in the form of strips of parachute. In France on occasions they had radio contact with the ground, we had no radio at all.
In this case the signal was X for unsafe and a U if safe so this is what we are looking for. We went at tree top height and close to the spot I climbed to two thousand feet otherwise you would not spot a clearing and luckily hit the clearing first time. Much to my astonishment there is no X but an L. The first reaction is to think L stands for land. I thought “No, no, no Dunbar, don't be fooled.”
You doubt, have I got it wrong? Did I have the recognition signals wrong or had they been given to me wrong?
So what I did, I motioned the other three to stay where they were and went down to have a look.
Now luckily, being suspicious, because when you are in this situation you tend to think the worst can possibly happen to you, I put the L5 through it's paces and 'General Ginger' for the first time hit 150knots. I dived down, came across the strip and was welcomed by a large number of Japanese charging out of the trees whooping of at me and so it was a matter of screaming across the strip flat out and heading back home having made frantic signals to the boys above.
One of the sequels to that trip was that we had a signal from 136 Force saying that they 'had been victims of the ungodly'. The signal is in my log book. I went back the following day to have another look and there was the L standing out. I went on my own hoping they had twigged as we hadn't landed. Nothing but the L was there and we forgot all about it. That was it. The japs had got the strip and there was no way we could land as I discovered the hard way.
A week later we were asked if we would have another go for fears for the bods were mounting. It's a fairly easy decision to take – you know what is awaiting you but you also know the fate awaiting these guys. We were always very conscious of it. I remember when we arrived and joined 4Corps Aheadquarters we had a briefing from Major Gibson as to what the job was going to be. Inevitably one of the pilots said “By the way, what happens if we come down behind the lines?” Gibson said “ Oh, that's easy for me to answer. The only armament you have of course on your aircraft is a .38 revolver. You have six bullets, use five, save one. Under no circumstances must you fall into the hands of the japs.” We all knew what happened to prisoners who the japs took.
So we said we would have another go. I had been there twice to this place and had got to know it so off we go and bingo, all is fine. I did a very careful circuit of the place. It looked very tight, this clearing, but you have got to have a go. All four of us landed safely and a bunch of bods came out of the jungle, not japs this time. W e taxy over there and in front of this group is this very imposing character, obviously a white man, with an enormous black beard and he rushes up to the plane and gets to the cockpit. I expected to be greeted with”Oh, thank God you've come”. “Where is the fifth plane?”he shouts. I was taken aback and said” Sorry but there are four of you to take out”. He said there were five. I said sorry but I was told to take out four and that is all I have. “Well can we get two in a plane?” I replied “To begin with I'm not convinced we can get off with just one of you it is so tight”. I didn't know at this time the Lysander had crashed. I realised we had a problem and it was at this stage that I switched off the engine.

Danny42C
15th Oct 2016, 11:56
BB (#9543),

Wonderful stuff - now we're getting down to the"nitty-gritty" ! (at Cannanore we used the same strips of sheet system at the CDRE gas-bombing and spraying ranges: it was one strip for "carry on as planned", two for "wait", and "X" for "Go home").
...a place we had never heard of...
Or could pronounce ? (D. rabbets about in his log, comes up with "kyathwengyaungywa" - beat that, if you can).
...it was at this stage that I switched off the engine...
We all know what's coming next, don't we ?

Keep up the good work !

Danny.

Box Brownie
15th Oct 2016, 20:30
Flt Lt John Dunbar DFC (RIP) Five into four won't go.

Taken from two tapes

General Messervey had a habit, if he could he liked to move his Corps Headquarters right onto the jap lines as we moved forward. It's ridiculous, I mean there is the story of the 'bayonet charge' I had to lead and have told you about on many occasions. The fact that I was wearing red silk pyjamas that hadn't been washed for three months is irrelevant. To explain, we had to make certain we were in 'the box' every night.

I was made aware of the box when we had pitched our tents and were about to turn in on the first night of a move. This was at Towngoo when the japs are going back to Siam. A sergeant appeared at the tent and said we had to be inside the box. I asked why and was told “We can't get to you out there, so if you are in danger you need to be in the box.” I remember saying “I'm a bloody pilot, what is all this?” The box was a ring of sentries around the HQ.

We were quite some distance from the box and it was very late indeed. There were four of us in the tent. I remember saying to them to go to the others, the engineers etc, get them outside my tent and to make sure they brought all the ammunition they had got. We had a corporal cook seconded to us from the army who had a touch of shell shock. I said tell the cook I want his fixed bayonet. LAC Moulton had a Japanese machine gun that we had acquired at Meiktila. “What the bloody hell's that?” “ It's a machine gun sir” “ Does it work?” “ Don't know sir” “What the bloody hell!”. There were japs around us and this incredibly inane conversation was going on. Eventually I said to this corporal cook “ I know this isn't done, but I have to lead you into the box whether you like it or not. Please may I borrow your rifle because I shall feel a lot safer?” It was a fair walk through the jungle along a narrow path. I hadn't given this a thought, but when we get to the box we get the “Halt, who goes there?” They couldn't believe what they saw.

General Messervey told me this the next day. He said “I've heard all about it Ginger. I've heard the story. The sentries stopped you and there's this apparition of a pilot wearing red silk pyjamas holding my cook's rifle and bayonet. You were lucky to get in! You were lucky they let you in”
He was laughing his head off.

To be continued

Chugalug2
15th Oct 2016, 22:05
Great stuff, BB, thank you. The Army deployment in war is a mystery wrapped in an enigma to most in the RAF, but we have all heard of the Battle of the Admin Box and how vital it was to our Arakan campaign in 1944. Sounds like the General had the right idea to gather his chicks into the relative safety of the coop, whatever their attire!

Danny42C
16th Oct 2016, 12:13
BB,

Now top that - if you can ! (Anybody ?)

Danny.

?...♫....."she'll be wearing silk pyjamas when she comes"....♫.... ?

Box Brownie
16th Oct 2016, 16:09
Flt Lt John Dunbar DFC (RIP) Five into four won't go

Taken from three tapes

There are one or two stories I could tell which involve awfully bad language and one or two of them that are anti American. There are nasty stories it is best not to talk about. On one occasion I was landing behind one of my pilots who had been sent in in an Expeditor because we couldn't cope with the numbers we were bringing out.. He was landing in front of me and he got one of the shells burst underneath him and he slewed off the runway, the undercarriage collapsing. There was just this pile of Expeditor beside the runway. I'm coming up behind him so I just taxied
over, got out and I'm looking down at the cockpit. Where's Mac? And there he is, sitting in the cockpit with a look of shock on his face. I said “ You all right?” and he said “ They've shot me up the arse.” He was sitting with a bottom full of shrapnel. So I said “ Can you move?”. I pulled him out – my engine is still running beside the wreckage. I just chucked him in you see and taxied back in to the dispersal area.

You can't believe it, but the dispersal area was just an ammunition dump. The army were there for twenty eight, twenty nine days. I shout to this medical orderly, the only corporal in the RAF to get the MM. I said “ For God's sake go and get the Doc” There was this wonderful Fl Lt. He came over and I said “ Can you patch him up?”

Every morning we did a bayonet charge down the strip because the japs used to occupy the strip every night and on day twenty seven or was it twenty eight, whenever it was, I was asked to go in there at the crack of dawn with blood plasma. I was met by the famous corporal and he said “ The Doc's not around sir” “ What do you mean, not around?” He said “He was the only officer left alive last night so felt he had to lead the bayonet charge to clear the strip,” which he did. I don't know where he had gone when I came in but he eventually appeared and I said “ Isn't it about time that I flew you out for a bit of a rest?” He said “ We've just got a signal through – the tanks are half a mile out” They got through that morning to break the ring round the strip.


To be continued.

Chugalug2
17th Oct 2016, 09:26
JD (c/o BB):-
Every morning we did a bayonet charge down the strip because the japs used to occupy the strip every night
Rather puts the daily runway FOD check into perspective doesn't it? This "FOD check" with fixed bayonets led by a Flt Lt MO (the only officer left alive) at that! It really brings home the dangerous and violent reality of a forward airstrip completely surrounded by the enemy. Lucky that relief is almost there! Presumably the Corporal is easily identifiable if he was indeed unique in being the only RAF one awarded the MM?

I must say that the Beechcraft Expeditor seems to be a rather large machine to get into such an airstrip, let alone one that is under constant shellfire!

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x199/chugalug2/Beechcraft%20Expeditor_zpsp1xbjabs.jpg

Chugalug2
17th Oct 2016, 09:46
BB, thanks for the pics of the Harvard at Kemble. At first sight it seems incongruous that this aircraft, vital to the training of allied pilots for defeating inter alia the German Air Force, should appear in the insignia of the Luftwaffe. But this of course is the post war Luftwaffe, pulling itself up by its bootstraps. This one wasn't though:-

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x199/chugalug2/Luftwaffe%20Harvard_zps8jpd7ggg.png

Danny42C
17th Oct 2016, 10:55
BB (#9548),
...“He was the only officer left alive last night so felt he had to lead the bayonet charge to clear the strip” ...
How can you top that ? I've had to send a chap out to fill in ratholes (or rather the mounds of spoil dug out by said rats), had to buzz herds of goats off before a landing, and had to painstakenly explain to the locals that this wasn't their maidan (Park) any more and no, they couldn't have their picnics or play cricket on this nice level strip we'd prepared.

But this leaves me speechless !

Danny.

Box Brownie
17th Oct 2016, 11:40
There is no doubt Danny that these memories were seared into John's mind. I knew him as a friend for fifteen years. I was able to have the late Ken Aitken do two paintings for John, he would say " I see those paintings every morning and Burma is with me"

ian16th
17th Oct 2016, 11:42
“He was the only officer left alive last night so felt he had to lead the bayonet charge to clear the strip”Wasn't this sort of activity the reason for creating the RAF Regiment?

Chugalug2
17th Oct 2016, 12:37
Indeed it was, Ian, but more so for defending RAF airfields (temporary or otherwise) than airstrips embedded with the Army and that move with the Army. If this MO had been the last officer standing with Regiment rather than Army troops defending the airstrip, I suspect he would have done exactly the same thing (though no doubt any Regiment NCO would have tried hard to dissuade him!).

Vzlet
17th Oct 2016, 14:53
This season's RCAF CF-18 display aircraft celebrates the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan with a splendid color scheme:

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8271/30335754616_22b6086b4b_c.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8280/29740517104_54e5967b4a_c.jpg

ian16th
17th Oct 2016, 15:11
Indeed it was, Ian, but more so for defending RAF airfields (temporary or otherwise) than airstrips embedded with the Army and that move with the Army. If this MO had been the last officer standing with Regiment rather than Army troops defending the airstrip, I suspect he would have done exactly the same thing (though no doubt any Regiment NCO would have tried hard to dissuade him!). I have a recollection of recently reading of a similar situation, where each morning the RAF Regiment cleared an enemy from an airfield/runway. But not just where.

Sorry, I'll plead senility.

Chugalug2
17th Oct 2016, 17:29
ian16th:-
each morning the RAF Regiment cleared an enemy from an airfield/runway
If you are talking about Burma in WWII, could it have been Meiktila? A very similar situation to that which JD describes was at that airfield, with just a F/O and a P/O left to lead the recapture of the runway from the Japanese troops that had occupied it during the night. I guess its a question of scale, if you have a substantial air operation involving (in this case Daks and Spits) then the RAF Regiment were there to keep it operational each day. If you were only using L5s and Expeditors (!) then it was a DIY task to do so. This aspect of the Regiment's history can be found in Constant Vigilance: The RAF Regiment in the Burma Campaign by Nigel Warwick.

Danny42C
17th Oct 2016, 18:20
Chugalug (#9550),

What sticks in the memory was a Lockheed T-33 which came into Thorney Island '58-'59. First one I'd seen from the GAF. Think it had the old Gothic black crosses on the sides. Was in the top tower - sent a shiver down my spine !

But of course we were all pals then (and now).

Danny.

Alles vorbei !

ian16th
17th Oct 2016, 19:42
If you are talking about Burma in WWII, could it have been Meiktila?Maybe, sorry I just have this vague recollection of reading something.

Edited to add:
With a little help from Giggle I found this: raf-regt-meiktila-dinner-raf-honington/ (http://livingmilitaryhistory.co.uk/Blog/2013/03/15/raf-regt-meiktila-dinner-raf-honington/)

Chugalug2
17th Oct 2016, 20:05
Seems that Meiktila was considered a key battle for the Regiment, as this excerpt from the RAF's MOD site would imply:-

The Corps played a significant role in the Far East, operating ostensibly in India and Burma. It was in Burma that the RAF Regiment fought the battle for which it had been raised. The airstrip of Meiktila was deep behind enemy lines, for 10 long days the Japanese soldiers were repelled in order to allow air operations to continue.

The RAF Regiment - History (http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafregiment/history/)

Danny as you say, a lot of reorientation was required then as old enemies became new allies, and vice versa...

BEagle
18th Oct 2016, 07:16
Back in the 1980s, a bunch of reprobate F-4 chums were drinking in a mess bar with their Luftwaffe colleagues. As the evening wore on, someone decided that it would be a good idea to sing 'The flag flies high at the masthead', which, for younger viewers, is loosely based on the wartime German song 'Wir fahren gegen Engeland'...

There was rather an embarrassed silence after they'd finished singing; the Luftwaffe mates looked at each other, slammed their beers down on the bar and stormed out.

"Oh....sugar", thought the F-4 team, "we've obviously gone too far this time".

But a few moments later, the Germans returned, stamping loudly as they marching abreast singing the original version in German - "If you buggers must sing, at least use ze right vords!" said their boss - and the evening continued happily with much beer and schnapps!

Danny42C
18th Oct 2016, 09:45
The things you learn on this Thread ! Spent nearly four years in India/Burma in WWII, and never knew there were any RAF Regt out there at all - until now. Even when I left UK in '42, we vaguely thought that the Regt manned Bofors guns at major airfields, but that was all.

But when it came to the hand to hand stuff, we were 'on our own'. The story was that, when it was first mooted that that airfields should be protected by the Army against paratroop attack, Churchill exploded: "Send one lot of able-bodied men to defend another lot of able-bodied men ? I think not !

So we had Station Defence Days (and Nights). One Day I particularly remember, at Hullavington, I was slithering about on the wet grass chucking half-bricks (pretend grenades) at a Bren gun carrier (pretend tank), when I suffered a grievous loss. My favourite of all time fountain pen (2/3d and two "Typhoo Tips" box tops - and for that you got a 14k gold nib) must have slipped out of my battledress blouse pocket, never found it.

Later, at OTU at Hawarden, they did not want to interrupt the flying programme, so we had a Night one. Somewhere on my earlier Posts, I tell the tale of a miserable little group of LACs in the middle of the night, shivering in their groundsheets from the pelting rain, manning their Post (what with ? - not even pick-helves) against (what ?)

Couldn't desert your Post (Orderly Officer came round in his van every hour or so to check), even if you could, couldn't get back to your billet (S.P.s posted). Found shelter in a newly assembled "Wellington", parked nearby on the grass (which is why I know that some had a crew door half way back on the port side - and a nice little canvas bunk inside).

Must've called it off at first light, so that the studes could get some kip before climbing into their Spits next morning. Charging with fixed bayonets (what were they ?) on the end of rifles (never had any). Not this child !

Which leads to another story....

Danny.

FantomZorbin
20th Oct 2016, 11:26
BEagle
Much the same when the GAF visited the secret airbase in Shropshire when we attempted the Horst Wessel ... much to the distress and distraction of the poor PMC!!

Box Brownie
20th Oct 2016, 17:45
Fl Lt John Dunbar DFC (RIP) Five into four won't go

Taken from three tapes

With General Messervey it was always “ Right Ginger, 3Brigade are going in at 2o'clock at ….... I'd like to go and watch” “You know damn well sir, I cannot fly you over the battlefield”
“Oh it's all right Ginger, it'll be all right” I have told you before when 'Norris the nose' took him up when I was not available. I will never forget his words when he got back “Ginger, you're not going to like this.” Jimmy thought 'the General has spoken – I had better do as asked' This was the sort of army we had out there. It was a joy to work with them. Jimmy got his nickname when he put his face into the dashboard when crashing on take off on one of those silly jobs.

As you know, we dropped the order of battle every morning to the advanced units of 4Corps and we would bring information back as to where they had got to. I remember Joe Edwards
coming back and saying “I've boo boobed. I dropped the mail and the japs have captured it. I circled round and realised that I had dropped it in the wrong place. They have loaded it on to an elephant and it has charged off into the Japanese side.” This is the whole battle of order for the army. I said”Oh my God!”and rushed into G ops and they got hold of Major Gibson, a most wonderful guy. If anyone said the RAF and Army can't get on... We never had a disagreement on anything. “ You tell me what you want Ginger and we will do what we can” We went through the whole war without a cross word.

In Gibby's tent I said “ For God's sake Gibby, we've boobed” “ Oh “he said, “ I must get hold of the General right away” General Messervey came running back. We were both stood to attention saying “I'm sorry Sir, we have dropped the order of battle on an elephant and it has charged off and there is nothing anyone can do about it, nothing at all” Messervey was very calm and said to tell Joe to go back and have a look. Joe was away for about an hour. When he landed
he just looked at us and said “ The elephant is back, they've got the elephant back” The elephant had somehow made it's way onto our side of the line. The war in our part of Burma hung in the balance at that moment because we would have blown the complete gaff, these were the sort of things that happened.

We lost several aircraft in this game because we were trying to land in silly places. If we had two hundred yards cut out that was as much as we could hope for. This went on all the way to the Irrawady crossing which was one of the great experiences when I flew General Messervey. There is a book called 'The Spearhead General' which is a book written about him. He was the only General in the British Army who was operational on 3rd September '39 and was on the VJ hand over in Rangoon at the end of the war and the only General to be captured by the Germans and to escape. I flew him every other day.

To be continued

pzu
20th Oct 2016, 21:31
Just found references to this gentleman S/Ldr Rupert Parkhouse on FBook recently celebrating his 70th Wedding Anniversary to his wife Rosemary

WW2 pilot celebrates 70 years of marriage to his Wren (From Bournemouth Echo) (http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/14813161.WW2_pilot_celebrates_70_years_of_marriage_to_his_Wr en/)

Shot down in 1940 flying a Fairey Battle over France (5 years a PoW) then a post war Sunderland pilot involved in the Berlin Airlift

Oh to get his memories posted on this thread

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

Chugalug2
20th Oct 2016, 22:07
JD (c/o BB):-
“I'm sorry Sir, we have dropped the order of battle on an elephant and it has charged off and there is nothing anyone can do about it, nothing at all”

OK BB, you'll just have to run this past me again as I've not quite got it. Were the OoD's free drops or were they attached to small (SEAC) chutes? If the latter then I can well imagine the scene of elephant suddenly festooned with pack, rigging lines, and canopy (high viz colour?) taking great offence at the liberty and charging off into the boondock in protest. If the former then it doesn't quite tally that the pack was still on its back when it finally returned (or perhaps it held it triumphally in its trunk?).

General Messervey is obviously someone to read much more about. He sounds like a soldier's soldier, leading from the front and seemingly unrestrained by his staff officers.

RAF VSO's please take note. I once sent an AQM up to 38 Group for an AOC's commissioning interview as the boss had endorsed my recommendation as O i/c AQMs. "What did he talk about?", I asked on his return, thinking it would be all about officer qualities, etc. "He wanted to know what was going on here", he replied. "He said his staff don't tell him anything and keep him stuck in the office". A bit apocryphal no doubt, but as it was Micky Martin he was probably making a point about RAF bureaucracy. I don't expect General Messervey had much cause to make such comments...

Box Brownie
21st Oct 2016, 07:52
The OoD were free drops Chug. The japs had placed it on the elephant. John often mentioned this story ( with a chuckle!) and always said that the elephant charged off of it's own accord

Fareastdriver
21st Oct 2016, 08:33
Way back in 1966 a the squadron QHI, a character called Chunky Lord (RIP) , was checking me out on low level downwind engine offs.

(200 ft. downwind, engine pulled, full flare down to 45 knots, wrack it around on your ear into wind, maintain 40 knots and cushion touchdown with lever) quite simple really.

I did a couple and then Chunky said he would have a go. Unfortunately he turned left at the end of the flare as opposed to right which for various aerodynamic reasons doesn't result the same effect so we ended up at about 100 ft. with no airspeed and lots of downward arrows.

The landing was somewhat, actually very, untidy and we departed the aircraft by climbing upwards out of the port cockpit windows.

As we stood there wondering what to tell the Board of Inquiry we were joined by AVM Micky Martin who had ran from 38Gp HQ some 100 yards from our exhibition and he was the first to arrive. He was very concerned about our health and when the blood wagon arrived he returned to his HQ of four days.

Danny may remember my describing the AVM and I passing through Leconfield one day; the person wearing my Cold Weather Flying Jacket saga. I also, in Germany, refreshed him with a low level trip across the Eider Dam.

I flew Mickey, Sir for short, innumerable times and he was one of, if not the nicest of, all the VSOs and VIPs I flew around in the sixties and seventies.

ancientaviator62
21st Oct 2016, 09:06
I agree with the comments in respect of the great 'Mickey Martin'. We had just reformed 47 Sqn at Fairford with the Hercules when he , as AOC, paid us a visit.
We were gathered in the crewroom when he arrived. He shook off his 'attendants' walked up to those at the coffee bar and immediately started chatting. He had huge presence.
I never met another VSO with that kind of rapport with the troops.

Warmtoast
21st Oct 2016, 16:17
Another VSO from an earlier era who was well liked and respected by his men was Air Marshal the Earl of Bandon. Photo of him with some of his men in my post here:
http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/577447-raf-gan-1958-later-2.html#post9346387
post #34

Danny42C
21st Oct 2016, 16:32
BB (#9564),
...“ The elephant is back, they've got the elephant back” The elephant had somehow made it's way onto our side of the line...Sagacious beast ! On such tiny threads do the fate of armies depend !

Another elephant story worth the retelling:

...The other loss was a valuable item of Government property. I've said that new concrete tracks were being laid. Before you pour concrete, you have to put in hardcore and ram it down. They had no steamrollers, but a Works and Bricks elephant made a very good substitute. Jumbo "marked time" ponderously, helping himself to any edible vegetation within trunk reach. His "mahout" (keeper) moved him a few feet from time to time as the job required.

All was calm and content. Jumbo much preferred this to hauling heavy logs in the forest, and his mahout had nothing to do except smoke his malodorous "bidi" (this was the local "roll-your-own"; the filling was a matter of conjecture: obviously vegetable in origin, but "processed" by some animal - camel seemed the most likely).

By the way, it might interest you to know that there's a standard elephant "language" of commands, just as with sheepdogs. If you learn it, so that you can "drive" one trained elephant, then you can "drive" any other. The mahout backed up his orders with an "ankh", a very unpleasant looking iron rod some two feet long, curved at the end, with a nasty spike at the tip (there is no point - no pun intended - in whacking an elephant with a stick). It sounds barbarous, but I suppose it was no worse than the rowels on a spur.........(just thought you'd like to know!)

Then the air raid warning came. The mahout ran for it, leaving Jumbo to his own devices. In all fairness, there wasn't much he could do (imagine digging a slit trench to hold an elephant, and then persuading him into it). The bombs came down and Jumbo vanished. We found no bloodstains and concluded that he had been stung by a piece of hot shrapnel.

Whatever had hit him did not impede his locomotion. He was seen by "B" Flight (untouched by the raid on the far side of the runway), galloping along it with trunk, ears and tail outstretched, and roaring with indignation. He went trumpeting off the end into the hills and was never seen again. A tracker party found no body and assumed that he had decided to give civilisation a miss. And who could blame him?

But that wan't the end of it. This was no common or garden elephant. He was Government property, registered and on inventory. His loss must be investigated; there was an endless Court of Enquiry in which we were involved as witnesses. Indian bureaucracy is a wondrous thing. It rather seemed that they regarded the loss of their precious elephant as our fault, and thought that the RAF should pay for it.

What became of it in the end, I do not know, for shortly afterwards Stew and I, with three other crews, were posted to "beef-up" No. 8 Sqdn, IAF. They had recently been equipped with the Vengeance, and were somewhere back over on the other side of the Bay.

But before I leave K and the delicious, all pervading scent of tea which would stay long in my memory, here are two little vignettes to lighten what has been a sombre tale so far. "Topper" had got hold of a miniature dachshund (or at least, I think it was "Topper"), Over at "B" Flight (why would he be there - was he acting C.O.? ), among the trees, he had this dog with him. Jumbo had occasion to visit the Flight, to pull a tree down to make more room, or something like that.

The tiny dog took exception to this, and valiantly tried to defend his master's property by barking and nipping at this monster's toes. Jumbo looked indulgently down on the angry little animal, and gently shooed him away with his trunk, although he could have stamped him flat in a moment, or used his trunk as Tiger Woods uses a driver - and the dog wouldn't have touched down for 200 yards or so. We marvelled at his forebearance - truly the patience of an elephant!. Of course he was a great favoutite of all...
Just thought I'd mention it.

Danny.

Dave Clarke Fife
21st Oct 2016, 18:39
I have been following this thread from its inception but not having had anything valid to add (until now and now not too much admittedly), I would like to add to your picture collection. just returned from a trip to Bengaluru (Bangalore in old money) and visited the HAL Aerospace and heritage Museum. Two of the many old photographs were of the Vultee in India and I'm unsure if they have already been posted elsewhere but here they are nonetheless.



http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb219/A330Skygod/Hindustan%20Aerospace%20Museum/DSC_0138.jpg[/URL]

Dave Clarke Fife
21st Oct 2016, 18:43
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb219/A330Skygod/Hindustan%20Aerospace%20Museum/DSC_0139.jpg

MPN11
21st Oct 2016, 19:04
:confused:

Now there's an addition to the tale of Vengeance!!

Although the 2nd picture raises a question ... what is that airframe serial number? And what's a Vultee 12D when it's at home?


DR DH DA .. I'm, not getting a cross-reference from Bruce Robertson's 'British Military Aircraft serials'

zetec2
21st Oct 2016, 19:50
Looks like a Curtis Hawk 75 to me ?.

Chugalug2
21st Oct 2016, 19:51
BB:-
The OoD were free drops Chug. The japs had placed it on the elephant.

Thanks for the info, BB, but why would they do such a bizarre thing? The orders would not have consisted of much more than a pad or two of paper. You'd have thought that they would have been placed into the custody of the senior officer present, who would admittedly have wanted to pass them up the CoC ASAP. But by elephant? If that decision and the outcome of that decision was learned by their CoC, heads would have rolled (literally in the case of the Imperial Japanese Army!). As you say Danny, thank goodness that the fickle finger of fate pointed in our favour. I hope that the elephant earned an appropriate reward for such duplicitous behaviour towards its former owners!

Stanwell
21st Oct 2016, 21:50
I tend to agree with zetec2.
I'm pretty sure that's not a Vultee 12D.
The clues lead me to think it's a product of Curtiss rather than Vultee - as suggested, a Hawk 75.
Anybody want to argue?


Danny,
Thanks for re-posting your description of the elephant who got stung in the bum with
a hot piece of shrapnel - whereupon "he decided to give civilisation a miss".
I'm still giggling. Thank you.

.

Chugalug2
22nd Oct 2016, 07:55
The self same type appears (at 19 mins) in a colour video that I posted a link to in #9517. Seems the Curtiss 75's were, like the Vengeance Mk1, a French order that became surplus to requirement for certain well known reasons:-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBwkYRGnd0s

No Vengeances, Danny, sorry! But an even rarer RAF steed at 19mins in, also an ex-French order bought by the UK Purchasing Commission. Variously ID'd as a Curtiss 75 Mohawk and a P36. Were they one and the same?

MPN11
22nd Oct 2016, 09:49
Wiki shows the complexity of Curtis P-36 Marks/variations. I'm still puzzled by the airframe serial number, though. Surely the ones produced in India (Hawk 75A-5) would still have used RAF serials?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtiss_P-36_Hawk

Chugalug2
22nd Oct 2016, 11:09
MPN11:-
I'm still puzzled by the airframe serial number

On the video the second one taxiing out past the camera at 20:19 has the first letter of the serial number partially obscured by the squadron letter ("O"). It could be a D, and the second letter appears to be K. Would that combination fit in anywhere in your listings? I couldn't make out the figure group that would have followed though.

Fareastdriver
22nd Oct 2016, 11:41
According to UK Serials Resource Centre there was a batch of DR allocated to Mohawks.

DR761 to DR807 Mohawk

The picture is of DR 7**

From Wiki;

French orders were taken up by British Commonwealth air forces, and saw combat with both the South African Air Force (SAAF) against Italian forces in East Africa, and with the RAF over Burma. Within the Commonwealth, the type was usually referred to as the Curtiss Mohawk

MPN11
22nd Oct 2016, 12:30
Ah-ha! Bruce Robertson's listing (1971 edition) just has DR761 as a D.H.75 Hawk Moth -Impressed in the Middle East and then a gap from there to DR808 - Percival Vega Gull, impressed.

A minor mystery resolved ... thanks, FED :ok:

Chugalug2
22nd Oct 2016, 15:00
RAFCommands.com solved the series that my video one belonged to; ie BK and not DK:-

RAF Aircraft Serial Numbers Tool (http://www.rafcommands.com/database/serials/index.php)

Isn't the internet wonderful...sometimes?

Danny42C
22nd Oct 2016, 16:06
Dave Clarke Fife (#9572),

Wot in 'ell is THAT ? Vengeance 12D ? Never heard of such a thing ! This is a composite "Photobucket" ("PhotoShop" ?) job, intended to extract the piddle.

No Vengeance (look at straight wing, not cranked). No dive brakes under wing. Tail totally different. Exhaust stubs wrong place etc. Serial letters wrong.

What was it originally ?

Look at nice little "spats" inside oleo legs. Here they are again !

(Sorry, can't get picture up but Google "Curtis Hawk" P-36).

Danny.

What will they think of next ?

EDIT: Not happy with "Assembly Line", either !

D.

Fareastdriver
22nd Oct 2016, 16:11
I think the DR series were built in India.

Wiki again.

The type was also manufactured under license in China, for the Republic of China Air Force, as well as in British India, for the Royal Air Force (RAF) and Royal Indian Air Force (RIAF).

DR is too late for the French ones when they were taken on charge, it was Hurricane II and Typhoon time. The series beginning with DR seem to be a hotchpot of different odd types that did not have a long production run. It looks as if somebody signalled the Airbox from India and requested a couple of dozen numbers; and that's what they got.

Chugalug2
22nd Oct 2016, 16:51
The Mohawk Mk I's to Mark III's were all ex French order A-75A a/c. The Mk IV's were also part French order, but also part a.n.others (including some ex Persian, Chinese, and Indian a/c). The reason that so many were from the French order was that it was for some 300 aircraft! Quite a few A-75's of course ended up with the Germans and their chums, including the Finnish Air Force. Those played a major part in the Winter War against the USSR.

RAF Mohawk (http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/p36_10.html)

zetec2
22nd Oct 2016, 18:09
One for Danny:
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y94/zetec2/th_1385052162-1558489_zpsggzft3qn.jpg (http://s3.photobucket.com/user/zetec2/media/1385052162-1558489_zpsggzft3qn.jpg.html)

MPN11
22nd Oct 2016, 18:27
zetec2 ... do you imply Danny lied about the dive being vertical? :)


... MPN11 dives into slit trench and awaits the inevitable!

zetec2
22nd Oct 2016, 18:50
Just a picture showing the Vengance, nothing implied, regardless of angles Danny deserves all the respect for hauling those big beasts around.

sycamore
22nd Oct 2016, 19:04
Danny,et al, the photo at#9572 shows the assembly line for Vultee V-12C/D;originally for China,the line was moved to HAL to complete the order.There is also a Mohawk in the foreground....

Sandisondaughter
23rd Oct 2016, 09:07
I am sure you will be sad to hear that my father, Arthur 'Sandy' Sandison DFC (Lancaster Pilot and Squadron Leader) passed away on 19th October in the Royal Bournemouth Hospital aged 96. In his personal life Dad was a very keen competitive sailor, helming X-One Design boats at Parkstone Yacht Club in Poole with great success. I always thought there was a similarity between his flying and sailing. Both depended on wind and weather. Dad always said that after his bombing runs he always immediately ascended to as great a height as possible for the flight home, which was different from the way many other pilots behaved. When sailing races he always chose a very individual path around the course, never choosing to stay within the main fleet. He won many a race following this plan as it was only him who caught the favourable wind-shifts. We miss him terribly. His funeral takes place on 31st October at 1.15 pm - you may like to think of him and his comrades at this time. Terri Sandison.

Dave Clarke Fife
23rd Oct 2016, 09:17
Hello Danny, can I just say that the pictures were taken where they hang in situ in Hall 2 at the HAL Aerospace and Heritage Museum in Bangalore and are annotated as you see them in my copies. Maybe a kindly word to the custodians of the museum is in order? I trust you will find it in your heart to forgive the Indian museum wallah who mistakenly labelled this aircraft

Stanwell
23rd Oct 2016, 10:30
Sandisondaughter.
Sorry to hear that, Terri.
It sounds like you were blessed to have a father of courage, perception and wisdom together with the ability to apply all those attributes to the tasks at hand.
We have him to thank for you being around.
Requiescat in pace.

Danny42C
23rd Oct 2016, 13:34
Edit: Ignore irrelevant Title (can't delete).

FED (#9581),

In the same way as the French A-31 contract (with Vultee) was taken over by us when France collapsed.
We had (No.5) Squadron of Mohawks near us somewhere in Burma. No match for the "Oscar".

Don't know where they were built...........D.
................................................

zetec2 (#9587),

Flight of Fancy ! Off the top of my head, then:

Dive illustrated 70-80°. The VV (A-31), was designed for vertical dives, we did vertical dives, for in that way we got the accuracy for which the VV was famed, and the Army liked so much. (A-35 [VV Mk.IV], God knows !)

Two aircraft diving together on same target ! ("Goodnight, Nurse") - quick way to the boneyard !

(Somwhere on this Thread is an account of a Luftwaffe display for the top brass, just before invasion of Poland. Included a massed dive by Stukas. Score: 13 Stukas and 26 crew [must admit weather played a part]. Goering not amused).

Don't do it.:=

Why only one bomb shown dropped (presumably port wing 250) ? We always dropped all four (2x500 from the internal bay, a 250 under each wing) together, they stay in formation (line abreast) under you for a second or so till you pull out. All four should be shown, plus the extended "forks" (which throw the two 500s clear of the propellor disc).

You can see how our yellow line along top to base of screen made such an excellent gunsight (throw all your telescopic ones away).

Artist should've checked with me !

D.

.............................................


sycamore (#9590),

It's a Curtis P-36 ! for Heaven's sake. Forget the "Vultee12D" ! No such thing. Vultee had nothing to do with it, AFAIK. Sub- contracting ? Wouldn't have thought so (they didn't even have the production facilities to cover their own contracts, had to sub contract to Northrop).

D.

..............................................


Terri (aka Sandersondaughter) (#9591),

The most sincere and heartfelt condolences from Danny and Dannysdaughter. My beloved wife (of 61 years) died two months ago. We know how you are suffering - there is nothing we can say that will be of any help.
...His funeral takes place on 31st October at 1.15 pm - you may like to think of him and his comrades at this time...I believe I speak for all PPRuNers: Yes, we will !

Dennis (aka Danny42C)

......................................................

DCF (#9592),

Had enough trouble sorting the Camden Museum specimen out (only VV in tne world !) Let sleeping dogs lie ! (better yet, get 'em on PPRuNe Forums [where they might learn something] or BHARAT RAKSHAK, for the IAF angle).

Cheers to all, Danny.

MPN11
23rd Oct 2016, 14:33
Danny42C ... your 'yellow line' may be a bit of reflection, but you are forgiven due to your eyesight issues. My brother-in-law can only see blurred outlines these days, after his brain surgery, so you are still slightly ahead of some ;)

Stanwell
23rd Oct 2016, 14:45
And there was me..
Thinking that my eyesight problems were due to having ignored the advice to change hands at ninety-nine. :E

MPN11
23rd Oct 2016, 17:58
be very afraid, Stanwell ... it creeps up on you!

I won't mention my deafness until I've had my ears syringed :)

Chugalug2
23rd Oct 2016, 21:58
Terri (if I may). I can only echo Danny's sentiments and offer your my condolences. You must be feeling very sad, but very proud also. My mother passed away in the Royal Bournemouth, the town in which she raised two sons. I am now the sole survivor. I will raise a glass to your father next Sunday and wish him favourable winds for his last flight. We all owe him and his comrades so much for the many missions they flew on our behalf.

We will remember them!

Wander00
24th Oct 2016, 07:14
I am sure I met Sandy Sanderson, not through aviation but through sailing. Royal Lymington YC had XOD sailing matches against Parkestone YC and other. A glass will be raised. Fair winds..........

Danny42C
26th Oct 2016, 12:58
zetec2 (#9589),

Nothing inferred !
...Danny deserves all the respect for hauling those big beasts around...
Not really ! Although large and ponderous, it was docile and easy to fly, no one had any trouble with it. If the eager beavers in Oz do scrape enough bits together to remake an A-31 (Vengeance Mk I,II or III), the chap who tests it will need to expect a leisurely take-off run. Use full throttle and max rpm (should get 40 in Hg manifold and 2400 rpm), thing swings left to start with, but easily controllable with rudder/brake. Has lockable tailwheel, but if you lock it for take-off, you'll probably forget it when landing. Most folk left it unlocked all the time.

Assuming a mph ASI, use 20° flap, cowl gills full open, get tail up ASAP on the roll, so as to see where you're going. Wind it up to 90, you'll need to pull it back almost to a 3-point attitude to get it to unstick. No rush to get wheels and flaps up, let it stagger up to 2-300 ft and about 110 before cleaning up and reduce to 34 in and 2150 to climb at 120 or so. Rate of climb nothing to write home about. Just takes its time to do anything. Cruise 30 in and 1850, gives you 150-160 mph. Flies around dragging its @rse, not very pretty, and you can't see much from 1100 to 1300, get used to it.

Always have a chap in the back to wobble-pump if electrical failure puts out fuel pumps.

You have trims on all three axes, it is very stable (dihedral on outer wing sections and huge fin). Dont't try any dives until you're comfortable with it, always use dive brakes and leave the engine under a bit of power all the time so it doesn't suffer thermal shock, wing-over and start with 60-70° and build up from there. On no account pull out at less than 5,000 ft agl to start with, see when you get it level and establish your own safe height.

Circuit flying easy, below 160, 20° flap again. Select u/c down, grab a handful of tail heavy trim as you do so, nose will drop quite sharply otherwise.

Nice wide, curved finals, full flap, max rpm and full rich, bleed power off (but never fully), aim to get over the fence with 95 or so, thing will adopt three-point attitude by itself, cut power, job done.

Never try glide approaches (on account of the enormous "mush" - the VV doesn't do "glide" at all. except in the sense of "brick") until experienced. (I got away with one once, but with 150 over the trees [full bomb and almost full fuel load], we survived, but VV in bite-sized chunks).

Will do nice loop, nice barrel roll, never tried slow roll (nor did anyone else, wouldn't recommend).

That's about it. Big pussycat, really. Thought I'd better put this in writing now as I don't feel too good today, may pop clogs before they screw a flyable one together, haven't heard of an Ozzie (12 and 24 Sqn RAAF) pilot alive (at least on PPRuNe), I may be last man on earth who flew 'em.

If they resurrect an A-35 (VV Mk.IV), then they're on their own (never even saw one). Best of British ! Watch out for the Lend-Lease angle (all IVs are LL).

Danny.

MPN11
26th Oct 2016, 14:33
Less of the negativity, please, Danny42C :)

... but isn't it amazing how people can recall all these power settings and speeds! Somehow (as a not-a-pilot) I can still just about recall the numbers for downwind checks in a Varsity, as in those days ATCOs read PNs in the Tower when things were quiet. And I was lucky enough to get a fair few trips as a Pilot's assistant on Air Tests ... buth we Strubby ATC POs had our own kit on the Sqn, and would be called to assist if all the proper Co-Pilots were busy flying with students. Happy days!

(Speed below 135, select gear down, 2400 rpm, "Co, synchronise" ... then the top panel, can't recall the sequence ... Oil Coolers Auto, Air Intakes Filter and something else (cowl flaps?) ... Brakes 1200 psi?, check 3 greens, checks complete. Close??)

Wander00
26th Oct 2016, 14:41
and it seems anyone whew flew Aunty Betty's Fun Jet can remember the check list for hydraulic failure and going into "manual"

Chugalug2
26th Oct 2016, 17:10
At Mepal, clear to join deadside and call downwind. Pre-joining checks please Co. Oh, and better check the R/W state...

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x199/chugalug2/Checklist02_zps2xsb1rrw.jpg

Fareastdriver
26th Oct 2016, 18:27
Check Lists?????????? What a load of Weenies.

Kick the tyres, light the fires and if there was a load of noise coming out of the back and you could talk to somebody you were OFF!!!!

It was useful if you arranged all the switches and levers in a pleasant eye catching arrangement.

As this thread is slowing down if anybody wants it I can bore you with my Borneo stories.

Ian Burgess-Barber
26th Oct 2016, 19:41
Happy B'day to Mr Chugalug2 (and to Hilary Clinton and Irish Poet Trevor Joyce) - Scorpios to the core!
Hope you all enjoy the day.

Ian BB

26er
26th Oct 2016, 20:13
Fareastdriver,

Bore us, please.

Stanwell
26th Oct 2016, 20:23
Thanks, FED.
".. all the switches and levers in a pleasant, eye catching arrangement."
Made my morning, that one.


Danny,
As Donald Sutherland's character said in 'Kelly's Heroes'...
"Cut with the negative vibes, Moriarty".
Another look at that movie is guaranteed to cheer you up - it got me giggling again. :ok:

Chugalug2
26th Oct 2016, 20:53
It's a fair cop IBB, you've got me banged to rights and no mistake. Many thanks indeed, though your list together with the heir apparent rather confirms Mrs C's oft made comments about b***** Scorpios!

MPN11
27th Oct 2016, 07:26
Another Scorpio wishing y'all Good Morning. :)

And thanks, Chugalug2 ... "Booster pumps ON"

aw ditor
27th Oct 2016, 08:12
Chug'

Best not to try landing now, only 300 Yards left of 23'.

AD'.

Chugalug2
27th Oct 2016, 08:57
ad:-
Best not to try landing now, only 300 Yards left of 23'.


Ah, just as well we checked then. OK, we'll carry out an overshoot from Oakington and divert to Wyton. At least its runway should be open, better just check that though, I suppose...

aw ditor
27th Oct 2016, 10:03
Chug;good idea but you'll find Wyton Runway covered in white crosses. (and full of Pongos') Best go to EGSC and wince at the landing fees.

A.D.

Danny42C
27th Oct 2016, 11:13
FED (#9604),

Scorpios of the World, Unite ! We have nothing to lose but our stings ! (for years after I came back, always knocked out my bedroom slippers before putting them on - you never know what might be nestling inside the toe).
My reply to zetec was more of an addition to the P.N.s for a VV than the P.N.s themselves (did we have any P.N.s - or were we just writing them as we went along ? Can''t remember).
...Kick the tyres, light the fires and if there was a load of noise coming out of the back and you could talk to somebody you were OFF!!!!...
Plus: "We'll brief in tne air - last man airborne buys the coffee when we get back !"
...It was useful if you arranged all the switches and levers in a pleasant eye catching arrangement...
More useful still if you knew what they were all for !
...As this thread is slowing down if anybody wants it I can bore you with my Borneo stories...
We'll hold you to that !

Happy Days,

Danny.

JustinL
27th Oct 2016, 11:45
Hello everyone.

Like many before me have said, this really is the most amazing thread for interested in US-trained RAF aircrew.

I have recently embarked on the research of my late father's second cousin, Paul Albert Levy (b. 10 Feb 1923).

LAC Paul A Levy was gazetted to be a 'Pilot Officer on probation' from 5th August 1942. However, scarcely a year later the Lancaster (W5008) he was flying crashed during 57 Squadron's raid on Nuremberg on 27/28 August 1943.

Thanks to the wonders of the internet, I have recently been contacted by a woman whose mother befriended Paul during his pilot training at Maxwell Field, which can only mean that he was trained under the Arnold Scheme. She has number of letters written by Paul that are helping to provide a picture of his movements in 1942/43.

In a letter written in Sep. 1942, he wrote that he was stationed in Moncton (No. 31 PD presumably) and "living a life of complete boredom, awaiting our fate."

By Nov. 1942, he wrote to her from a 'receiving centre' in Yorkshire (No. 7 PRC at Harrogate would be my guess).

I'm trying to determine which course Paul attended and am wondering how that ties in with his commission date.

At this website, (Jims Posting's - Jcproctor.co.uk (http://www.jcproctor.co.uk/lossesschool/jims-postings)) the movements and postings of James Kenneth Ives are reported in detail. Jim Ives graduated from course 42G on 5th August 1942; the date that Paul was promoted to P/O. Is that just coincidental, or can I conclude that Paul also graduated from course 42G?

Nicola Bate (arnold-scheme.org) has of course told me that very few graduates gained a commission unless they stayed on to instruct for a year. However, we know that the first class 42A graduated little over 6 months earlier on 3 Jan 1942.

The other perplexing aspect of this story is how he came to meet and befriend the teenager with whom he later corresponded. The girl was apparently at a boarding school in Birmingam, Alabama - not exactly round the corner from Montgomery.

Any thoughts?

Justin

Chugalug2
27th Oct 2016, 15:28
Justini, welcome. This is Danny, Danny meet Justini. He has a question or two...

ad:-
you'll find Wyton Runway covered in white crosses. (and full of Pongos')
Damn, this is becoming tiresome. Better avoid putting landing fees on the imprest though, how about we head off to Cottesmore? Bound to be open for business,... aren't they?

Danny42C
27th Oct 2016, 17:24
Justin (#9614),

Let me, as (one of the) Grand Old Men of this incomparable Thread, one of the oldest and deservedly most popular on Military Aviation Forum, welcome you aboard ! As you can see from my Callsign, I too went over to start on the Arnold Scheme in September, 1941, and graduated as a Sgt-Pilot in March 1942.

My story here begins on Page 114, Post 2462, and you can wade through it, but p.119, #2373, might be of more interest as relates to the said Birmingham (ALA).

As to your questions,
...can I conclude that Paul also graduated from course 42G?...
Well, 42C graduated March '42, 42D April, 42E May, 42F June, 42 G July, 42H August - so you're in the right ballpark.
...Nicola Bate (arnold-scheme.org) has of course told me that very few graduates gained a commission unless they stayed on to instruct for a year...
True, these would be employed in the Six British Flying Training Schools which the US had built for us in the Southern States. These were RAF commanded and administered, flying instruction at first by US civilians, to be replaced by RAF "creamies" from the Arnold output.
...The other perplexing aspect of this story is how he came to meet and befriend the teenager with whom he later corresponded. The girl was apparently at a boarding school in Birmingham, Alabama - not exactly round the corner from Montgomery...
Birmingham to Montgomery is 93 miles by road: the young lady would cetainly have a car, and that distance is peanuts to an American girl. ("School" probably means "College").

My guess would be that she lived in Montgomery anyway, came home at weekends, and she (or most likely, her mother) had put her name down as a Pen Friend, seeking to get in touch with these glamourous young Brits who were now, of course, their Gallant Allies since Pearl Harbor. Sadly I (at nearby Gunter Field) had no such luck. (C'ést la vie !)

Moncton was the Transit Camp where you waited for the boat home.

In Harrogate he would have been billeted in the requisitioned "Majestic" Hotlel.

Which'll do to be going on with.

Anything you can put in here about Paul would interest us,

Danny42C.

Fareastdriver
27th Oct 2016, 20:34
The panic of Confrontation was effectively over. Sukarno had tried a few tricks; a few incursions into Borneo and the Malayan Peninsular but they were short lived and ineffective. It was now a holding exercise and an excellent training ground for the British Army in Jungle operations.

Labuan is a small island of the coast just north of Brunei. The civil airfield had been taken over by the military and the old wooden terminal building and hotel was now the Officers Mess. There lived the senior officers plus a lot of fixed wing detachments, ie Javelins, Beverleys and the Valletta transports so helicopter pilots were regarded as not fit to live there. To this end we were banished to the Membedai, which was the Shell Brunei oil company’s leave and recreation centre down by a small beach. Fully air conditioned in brick built accommodation at two to room with a palatial terraced bar and lounge.

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee224/fareastdriver/1-3-2010_903.jpg (http://s229.photobucket.com/user/fareastdriver/media/1-3-2010_903.jpg.html)

I was the new boy on the block as most of the others had been there since it started. They had been on exercise in Libya when the squadron was assigned to the Far East and they were not given time to go home to Germany to pack. They went straight on an aircraft carrier and through the Suez Canal to Labuan.

The beach entertainment was watching the canoe project. This was an attempt by the squadron officers to replicate a dugout canoe of the type in common use in the interior. A suitable tree trunk had been washed up and they had set about it for some weeks hollowing in out in the approved fashion. Came the launch and our heroes embarked; followed by it capsizing. Eventually there were two choices; either put so many in it that it grounded or it turned over. It looked the part but unfortunately there were not the millenniums of experience that the Ibans had for building canoes.

The squadron was tucked away on the other side of the airfield so as not to interfere with the HQ staff’s lunch. There were two long wooden buildings, separated by a canopy which was the hanger. The Royal Navy had a Wessex flight based onshore at a place called Bario and their HQ, together with a solitary Leonides driven Whirlwind occupied one half. 230 Sqn occupied the other half with not more than four aircraft available or undergoing 2nd line servicing. The entire dispersal was perforated steel matting with a boundary of coiled barbed wire. Transport was the so-called Helistart Landrovers. These were Landrovers with an extra battery in series so they had twenty four volts available to a cable installed that had the standard NATO aircraft electrical plug. An added refinement was a platform with a small access ladder at the rear mounted on above the tilt which acted as a servicing platform for the upper reaches of a Whirlwind.

There aircrew were a mixture of grizzled veterans, actually they were only about thirty of so but they looked that after a few years on Dragonflys and Sycamores, one or two still on their first tour and a couple were among the last sergeant pilots to be trained by the RAF. One of the first things I learned to use was the squadron blowpipe. This came fully equipped with local darts; long spicky things with a fat bit at the back and an unrecognisable stain on the pointy end. The barrel, a hollowed out tube of a vine similar to bamboo was about four feet long and was horrendously accurate. Once one had learned the technique of pressuring the cheeks before blowing scoring 180 on a dartboard at ten paces was child’s play.

However, I wasn’t there to play darts so I had various briefings, some still covered by the Official Secrets Act.

To be continued………….

PS I may be posting a few pictures that I took when I was there. Unfortunately I made the mistake of using AGFA film; 'It's German, it must be good', and they deteriorated tremendously after a couple of years.

JustinL
28th Oct 2016, 12:17
Hello Danny,

It is a privilege to be corresponding with a chap who experienced the horror (and comradery) of war first hand.

I will endeavour to 'wade' through your story, as I am certain it mirrored Paul's experience.

Following a very lively exchange of emails yesterday evening, I have gathered a few more facts about Paul and his 'friend' Beth.

After the death of her mother in 1936, Beth and her father had moved to Birmingham. Her father's job (electrical engineer) meant he was working away from home more and more, so Beth was enrolled in the Misses Howard School for Girls in Birmingham.

She and Paul met at a party. That party, as you suggested, was probably organised by the school to meet the 'Galllant Allies'.

In his later letters, Paul reminisced about taking the 5am bus from Montgomery to Birmingham.

Anyway, getting back to serious business of flight training. The photo below on the left was taken at Pensacola Beach, FL on 6th Sep. 1942. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Paul is sporting an RAF cap and Pilot Officer's shoulder insignia. I can also just about make out the top of a badge on his left breast. Although maybe I'm imagining it.

Do you recall the appearance of your American wings? Were they standard issue?

Am I correct in thinking, that you didn't get your RAF wings until you got to Moncton?

The other photo was posted from Albany on 23 June 1942. He had written the caption 'All set for a high altitude flight'.

Justin

MPN11
28th Oct 2016, 17:13
looks like Plt Off braid to me (having zoomed in), and an RAF Officer's SD hat from a poor tailot ... should have gone to Bates :)

The wings seem metallic, rather than cloth, and I would have expected the tip of the Crown to be more obvious.

JustinL
28th Oct 2016, 17:58
I agree that the badge appears to be metallic. However, I think it may have been the US Army Air Force wings, so there would have been no crown.

I believe that the pilots from the Arnold Scheme did not get their RAF wings until they reached No. 31 PDC in Moncton.

Danny42C
28th Oct 2016, 20:14
Justin (#9618),
...Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Paul is sporting an RAF cap and Pilot Officer's shoulder insignia. I can also just about make out the top of a badge on his left breast. Although maybe I'm imagining it...
Well spotted - it's very hard to see. It and the cap and braid would almost certainly be sourced from RCAF in Canada.
...Do you recall the appearance of your American wings? Were they standard issue?...
Yes, reputably made in "dollar silver". Google for a picture of Army Air Corps pilot's wings (still got 'em, they're in the form of a brooch). We (March, '42) had no RAF uniform, a Colonel Haddon pinned mine on my scruffy flight overalls.
...Am I correct in thinking, that you didn't get your RAF wings until you got to Moncton?...
Yes - we travelled up from Alabama wearing (in my case) the chalk-striped grey suit in which I'd travelled down the previous September (the US was still supposed to be "neutral", so we had to pretend to be "civilians").
...The other photo was posted from Albany on 23 June 1942. He had written the caption 'All set for a high altitude flight'...
The American oxygen mask included a rebreathing rubber bag. That is what this comedian has blown up. Anyone who can remember the dentists of that era will remember the idea.

G'night !

Danny.

ian16th
28th Oct 2016, 20:39
I little restoring has been done.

If needed I can get rid of the creases.

Sandisondaughter
28th Oct 2016, 21:43
You certainly would have done. His lifelong passion was X boats and in particular X25 Morven, which he sailed competitively for the last time just after his 90th birthday in 2010. Many thanks for your thoughts Wander00

Chugalug2
29th Oct 2016, 09:47
Sandisondaughter and Justin (sorry to have misread your ID, Sir!), I wonder if we can trouble you to locate the respective logbooks in question, if at all possible? Whether the pilot in question survived the war or fell victim to it, nonetheless his logbook was maintained from the very first flight until the last, and should have survived no matter its owners fate. Far more reliable than the idiosyncratic nature of a diary, it was by contrast an official requirement to maintain, and outlines the path to operational flying from the very first steps into the military world. With the right interpretation it is a biography of the aircrew member in question. That right interpretation can happen here. All that is needed is the raw data, duly certified each month by a superior officer. Those units, those locations, those aircraft, can trigger many facts and figures. They are in short the description of how Allied Airpower was mobilised to safeguard the world against the greatest tyranny ever faced. The young men who trained to do that, and thereafter faced some of the most dangerous challenges of any Allied servicemen, are rightly revered in this thread that is dedicated to their achievement and to their memory.

Danny42C
29th Oct 2016, 11:54
FED (#9617),
...To this end we were banished to the Membedai, which was the Shell Brunei oil company’s leave and recreation centre down by a small beach. Fully air conditioned in brick built accommodation at two to room with a palatial terraced bar and lounge...
A step up from the ataps (I believe that is the right term for the equivalent of our bashas ?)

War is hell !

Danny.

ancientaviator62
29th Oct 2016, 12:24
Danny,
over on the 'Nostalgia' thread there is 'Far East Mosquito' and a mention of the Vengeance. Have you seen it ?

Sandisondaughter
29th Oct 2016, 12:28
Sandisondaughter and Justin (sorry to have misread your ID, Sir!), I wonder if we can trouble you to locate the respective logbooks in question, if at all possible? Whether the pilot in question survived the war or fell victim to it, nonetheless his logbook was maintained from the very first flight until the last, and should have survived no matter its owners fate. Far more reliable than the idiosyncratic nature of a diary, it was by contrast an official requirement to maintain, and outlines the path to operational flying from the very first steps into the military world. With the right interpretation it is a biography of the aircrew member in question. That right interpretation can happen here. All that is needed is the raw data, duly certified each month by a superior officer. Those units, those locations, those aircraft, can trigger many facts and figures. They are in short the description of how Allied Airpower was mobilised to safeguard the world against the greatest tyranny ever faced. The young men who trained to do that, and thereafter faced some of the most dangerous challenges of any Allied servicemen, are rightly revered in this thread that is dedicated to their achievement and to their memory.
Yes - we have log books and in a post in November 2015 I summarised Dad's service. Also have log books for his BOAC career and a host of memorabilia from the Arnold Scheme. He was in 42A (along with 'Regle' who introduced Dad to this forum). He stayed on in the States to instruct for a further year. I hope to add more information to the forum eventually but not ready to do so yet.

Danny42C
29th Oct 2016, 12:33
Justin and ian16th (#9622),

Wants to take the wire out of his hat (and kick it around for a bit) to really look the part. And get the Sweetheart of Sigma Phi to sew his braid onto a proper cuff - it'll be round his neck soon !

Seriously, what a lovely picture ! (even I was young once).

Eheu ! fugaces....

Danny.

EDIT:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/6a/Sweetheart_Cover.gif/220px-Sweetheart_Cover.gif (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sweetheart_Cover.gif)

The cover of a set of sheet music from 1924

Danny42C
29th Oct 2016, 12:34
Chugalug (#9624)
...The young men who trained to do that, and thereafter faced some of the most dangerous challenges of any Allied servicemen...
I believe that, if you exclude smaller groups (eg Commandos), it was second in the mortality stakes, pipped at the post only by U-boat crew.

Danny.

Danny42C
29th Oct 2016, 12:39
aa62,

Thanks for the steer ! - will go over and have a shufti.

Danny.

Fareastdriver
29th Oct 2016, 14:42
A step up from the ataps (I believe that is the right term for the equivalent of our bashas?

Absolutely first class.

Danny42C
29th Oct 2016, 14:57
FED,

All right for some !

Danny.

Chugalug2
29th Oct 2016, 16:19
Sandisondaughter:-
I hope to add more information to the forum eventually but not ready to do so yet.


Thank you for your response, and of course all completely understood. Your contributions, when you are quite ready, will be greatly appreciated. We await with much anticipation. :ok:

Fareastdriver
29th Oct 2016, 18:55
Labuan Island was on the Western end of North Borneo, which was our operating area. We had two forward bases; Sepulot and Tawau. There were rotations to Sepulot that lasted about three weeks, which was long enough to live primarily on Compo. Tawau was longer, as being a fixed base shared with the RMAF it was a lot more comfortable. The majority of operations were near the border to Brunei then eastwards to Tawau. The following map was printed in 1969 and shows all the airstrips that were available. There had been an intensive reconditioning of these airstrips in case the Indonesians had started to advance into Borneo. It never happened so the locals got airstrips, sometimes capable of accepting Beverleys, for nothing.

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee224/fareastdriver/img010_zpssxld39s0.jpg (http://s229.photobucket.com/user/fareastdriver/media/img010_zpssxld39s0.jpg.html)

Our maps were slightly different. There were no accurate maps available so they had to be produced. The basic information used on ours were rivers. These had been ascertained by PR coverage using Canberras, The Royal Engineers had a map making department and they would shin up hills and using trigonometry, establish the heights and positions of a prime mountainous features. The result was a map with spot heights, rivers and noticeable habitation. Rivers run along valleys so there are hills either side. The further the rivers are apart the bigger the hill, if they meander around a bit then it is a plain…….Simples.

The first week or so was doing the usual theatre conversion where you find out that a Whirlwind at +35C isn’t quite as agile as one in the UK at +5C. Then is there the vertical climb Air Test.

The Whirlwind 10 was powered by the Gnome gas turbine which was immensely more powerful than the piston engine that it had replaced. The engine was derated somewhat but there was not a torquemeter to actual tell you how much power was being delivered and too much would shred the inside of the gearbox. To this end one used the large fuel flowmeter guage. In normal flight this indicated around 400lbs/hr. but the max permissible was about 520/530 which was indicated by a moveable red line. Periodically a full power climb would be done to establish the fuel flow that provided the maximum power that the gearbox could cope with and the measure of satisfactory power was that it had to climb vertically, at MAUW, two hundred feet in one minute. This was because if you were in a clearing in the jungle you could have 160/190ft. trees in front of you and you needed to get above them for the clear air above.

The aircraft would be fuelled and ballasted up to MAUW and one would carry out a full power climb using the existing red line. Should the aircraft fall short than the line would be moved around the gauge and it would be tried again until it passed the test. Sometimes the aircraft would outperform the clock but that was put down to parallax error.

All those preliminaries having been done it was then time to be shown the ropes.

To be continued................

jerryh99
30th Oct 2016, 09:41
Hello all.


Continuing from a thread I started in AHN at the suggestion of AA. Edited to say that the thread was "Far East Mosquito", concerning my great uncle who was a navigator on 110 (H) Squadron. It is his flight commander S/Ldr Ira Sutherland DFC RNZAF we are talking about here.


Good morning Danny.


Yes, there is no doubt that it was the same chap. There is a bit about it on aviation-safety.net


ASN Aircraft accident 28-JUN-1945 de Havilland DH.98 Mosquito FB Mk VI RF582 (http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=165676)


I have seen elsewhere copies of two letters he wrote to families of men killed under his command - they were written at length and full of detail about the men's life on the squadron (8 IAF IIRC) as well as the circumstances of their deaths, so he obviously had a caring side even if it was well hidden at times.


W/Cdr Saunders also died in an accident - disappeared without trace along with his navigator and others in a transport aircraft returning from India to Yelahanka.


One thing you might know - there are a couple of flimsy typed documents pasted into the log which appear to be intelligence reports on results of their operation. One of them is headlined "Strawberries." Any idea what that means?


O-D - thanks I will look for the book.


AA - I would be happy for this to be in pilots brevet if that is better.


Jerry.

ancientaviator62
30th Oct 2016, 11:14
jerryH99,
I think you have just found the spiritual home for your posts. If you can read this whole thread from post number one and you will agree.
I am certain I speak for all when I say we look forward to more of your story.

Danny42C
30th Oct 2016, 14:02
jerryh99 (#9635) and aa62 (#9636),

Jerry, thanks for the link - so that was the end of Boss Sutherland:

...Broke up in air nr Pauktaw 28.6.1945 on farewell flight by Sutherland to see friends before repatriation to England. This aircraft was designated as not to be used on operations due to aircraft skin delaminating/glue issues...
Damned thing should've been grounded (as they all were at first). We understood that the problem had been solved by de Havilland (at the production stage) around October '44 (so my services as a Vengeance Instructor were no longer required), all with unmodified glue withrawn, and only new ones issued to the Squadrons in '45.
...This aircraft was designated as not to be used on operations due to aircraft skin delaminating/glue issues...If it's not fit to fly on 'ops', it's u/s and not fit to fly at all ! Who took this decision ? (should have faced Court Martial for it, IMHO).

Two months later and it was all over...... To die in this way after getting a DFC on bomber ops in UK (as I surmise)........It's a bit hard.


I second aa62. This is the place to Post all your material.

Considering only Threads with 1,000 Posts plus (to allow the Law of Large Numbers to take effect), and ignoring "Stickies", the ratio of 'hits' : Posts is a good indicator of the popularity of a Thread. On "Military Aviation", therefore, some revealing recent figures:

Title....................................................... ...........................Posts..Hits

"Caption Competition" (a runaway winner, you might suppose ?)....38750 140
"F-35 cancelled - then what ?"................................................. 9864 167
"Global Aviation Magazine - 60 years of the Hercules".....................4509 183
"Future Carrier (Including Costs)"...............................................3867 187
"Here it comes: Syria"............................................................ .1839 107

"Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II"....................................9636 238

though must admit that it is outclassed by:

"Hawker Hunter Loss at Shoreham Airshow "................................1638 467

(but then, don't we all love a good accident - and hasten to weigh-in with our ad hoc explanations !)

So, Jerry, you get maximum publicity here. Welcome aboard !

Danny42C

STOP PRESS: To All:

Join me and raise a glass to MPN11, (whose natal day is nigh, I believe)..... Ad Multos Annos ! :ok:

D.

MPN11
30th Oct 2016, 19:23
Oh, bless you, Danny42C ... yes, indeed, the sands of time click up another birthday tomorrow. "The span of man is three-score years and ten", so I've had a small bonus. However, my filthy smoking and drinking habits will inevitably prevent me achieving your score.

Still, it's been a good 2016 ... Hawaii, Jamaica, Arizona, Alaska, Virginia ... and South Africa to come in a few weeks. They say 'travel is good for the soul'. So it might be, but it gets more tiring every time we do it. A 30-hour run home from Honolulu is quite knackering, even in 'Premium' cabins. :)

Box Brownie
30th Oct 2016, 22:03
MPN11 Have a good day tomorrow!

Danny, my apologies for the break in the John Dunbar/Burma story. Normal service should be resumed within the next few days.

In the meantime, do you recall being issued with 'Ghouli chits'. Attached are photos of three pages from a seven page set.

Warmtoast
30th Oct 2016, 22:35
jerryh99

One thing you might know - there are a couple of flimsy typed documents pasted into the log which appear to be intelligence reports on results of their operation. One of them is headlined "Strawberries." Any idea what that means? Possibly a laudatory term the opposite of "Raspberry"?
Some dicussion here: Super Strawberry (http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/showthread.php?12765-Super-Strawberry)

ancientaviator62
31st Oct 2016, 08:03
I was issued with a 'Ghouli chit' during GW1, along with a 'Dressing first aid' dated March 1941 !

Chugalug2
31st Oct 2016, 08:17
Warmtoast, it seems that a strawberry was indeed a commendation received from above. In this link (obtained from following yours) ia a strawberry from the AOC 221 Group received by 113 Sqn (Hurricanes in Burma):-

F/Lt COLIN J. ELLIS (http://www.113squadron.com/id181.htm)

MPN11, Happy Birthday young man! I hope it is as enjoyable as you could wish for.

BB, were the other 4 pages put to some other good use? ;-) I suspect that the Maria Theresa dollars sometimes carried by aircrew were rather more effective somehow in safeguarding the crown jewels...

Danny42C
31st Oct 2016, 15:16
FED (#9634),

Ah....................those.. ♫..Far Away Places with Queer Souding Names..♫...which tug at our heartstrings as they recall our lost youth.

Know nowt about whirly birds, so will bow out !

Danny.

Brian 48nav
31st Oct 2016, 15:25
Birthday greetings!

Blimey, you're doing well on an RAF ATCO's pension!

Danny42C
31st Oct 2016, 15:52
MPN11 (#9638),

"Or Four Score By Reason of Strength" - then that's your lot, mate !

Fags are capricious killers, killed my Dad at 66 (not an easy death !), and here's Duke of E, smokes like a chimney (by all accounts), my age, running around like a two-year old. There's no justice !

Never smoked 'em myself (except as stink suppressors in a Deep Trench Latrine !) - but smoked a pipe, gave that up 40 yrs ago.

Danny.

Danny42C
31st Oct 2016, 16:10
BB (#9639),

No hurry - in your own time !

Goolie Chits ? Carried much the same thing in Burmese. Fair amount of natter about it on this Thread a while back. Try Page 137 #2726.

Danny.

Danny42C
31st Oct 2016, 16:25
aa62 (#9641),
...Dressing first aid' dated March 1941...
Can't believe no one has jumped in with:

"Do you really love me - or is it just your First Field Dressing ?" (Any [non-commissioned] old sweat will explain).

Danny.

Danny42C
31st Oct 2016, 16:39
Brian 48nav (#9644),
...Blimey, you're doing well on an RAF ATCO's pension!...Have been drawing mine for 44 yr now - reckon they've paid me (adjusted for Inflation) more pension than ever I drew in pay.:ok:

Danny.

Wander00
31st Oct 2016, 17:05
MPN11 - Hippo Birdy

MPN11
31st Oct 2016, 18:28
Gentlemen, my sincere thanks for your Birthday greetings. They are really appreciated.

Yes, another year done. As a friend on Facebook said, "Congratulations on your 42,048,000,000 miles trip round the sun." Doesn't time fly!!

Brian 48nav ... it helps when there are 2 wg cdr pensions in the family, even if we were both ground-pounders :)

Cheers, y'all ... now back to the historical stuff ;)

Fareastdriver
31st Oct 2016, 20:11
it helps when there are 2 wg cdr pensions in the family

Did you both claim marriage allowance when you were serving?

Sorry, that was abolished in about 1969, wasn't it?

jerryh99
31st Oct 2016, 20:16
Warmtoast,Chugalug,


Thanks for that, I did wonder but then thought it must be more complicated! Seems rather informal.


STRAWBERRIES
110 Squadron 6th June 1945 221 group D.I.B. No.198


A ground source reports that in an attack on KUNZZEIK many Japs were killed.


D.I.B. - daily intelligence briefing?

MPN11
31st Oct 2016, 20:19
FED ... I think we only got one claim! But we managed for about 10 years to get her paying for the OMQ at sqn ldr rate, with me collocated. She caught up with me eventually, and we enjoyed a huge 1* residence at Bracknell for the last few years when she was Director ISS :D

There are many tales of serving senior couples ... IIRC there was a gp capt GD(P) with a wg cdr spouse. NICE PENSION!

Fareastdriver
31st Oct 2016, 21:48
there was a gp capt GD(P)

I didn't think that flying pay was counted for a pension.

Brian 48nav
31st Oct 2016, 22:02
Continuing the temporary thread drift, there are lots of TWATCOs ( two ATCOs, man & wife or even the modern trend I suppose! ) in NATS, so with pay for the working grade, ATCO2, almost £110,000 after approx 15 years at Swanwick, there are so very comfortable retirees from there.

Shame I left before some really big pay rises, so my son keeps telling me, and with a wife with only an OAP based on my contributions. All donations gratefully accepted!

mikehallam
31st Oct 2016, 22:51
Apropos the 'Strawberry' appellation.

Just a guess, but perhaps another fruity RAF word for a type of air attack ?
viz. "Rhubarbs" for the Cross Channel strafing sorties.

mike hallam

Wander00
31st Oct 2016, 22:55
certainly a future Gp Capt GD/P married to a fellow flt cdr on IOT in the earlyish 80s and I suspect she went higher.

Danny42C
1st Nov 2016, 21:26
C'm on chaps - one more push, an' we can still beat "F-35 Cancelled...." to the 10,000 Post mark, and restore this, our wonderful Thread, to its rightful position as the Thread with the most Replies and the most Views on the Military Aviation Forum (if you exclude Stickies and the "Caption Competition", which by its very nature is bound to attract a huge number of one-liners).

Even "Capcom" can only attract on average 139.5 Views per Reply, and "F-35 Cancelled..." only 167.5, against our 237.7 (a sure indicator of its popularity).

Let's make Cliff (RIP) proud of us !

(Yes, I know, Mr Moderator, "Mea Maxima Culpa" !.......but: "Jube, Domine, absolvere")

Danny42C.

Brian 48nav
1st Nov 2016, 21:39
I'll pick up the baton - were you completely satisfied with the article on the VV in Flypast or was there much more that they could have covered?

Geriaviator
2nd Nov 2016, 11:25
Danny wrote:
Ah....................those.. ♫..Far Away Places with Queer Sounding Names..♫...which tug at our heartstrings as they recall our lost youth.
Indeed, Danny, I heard this one on 'golden oldies' last year and I was instantly transported back to Binbrook and the hit parade of 1950. We lived in what is now called Windsmoor Road (still there although runways have long gone) and next door lived the delectable Margaret whom I fancied very strongly.

She had a beautiful voice, but when Faraway Places with Strange Sounding Names are Calling, Calling to Me 20 times a day I'm afraid both Places and Margaret became less attractive. Fickle I transferred my attentions to the equally delectable Ann, who went on to marry a Vulcan navigator, while next year my Faraway Place with Strange Sounding Name became RAF Khormaksar. :hmm:

The tubular time machine will take you back .... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fO6HXrQP9S0

Danny42C
2nd Nov 2016, 13:42
Brian 48nav (#9659),

A volunteer's worth ten pressed men !

Set me to re-reading the article with a red marker pen, overall a fair summary, but they got some things wrong (IMHO):

p.28: (not an error - but for those who've got the mag, but not seen these Posts before, pic at top left (taken at Madhaiganj, not Digri) shows all six pilots of 'A' Flight standing on wing (plus "Topper" [Flt.Lt. Topley, Flight Commander] up on top of cowling). Bashful youth about to be bisected by prop blade is new boy Danny.

All Navs and AGs (plus dog "Spunky") sitting on leading edge. Hunched next to fuselage on port side is Keith Stewart-Mobsby ("Stew"), my back-seat man on most of our trips. Obviously not crewed-up yet, or he would've been perched below me on other side.

Note only two officers, "Robbie" Robertson (Nav), who flew with me on the first three 'ops', and "Topper". All the rest are SNCOs.

Big lad draped around propellor boss is "Chiefy" (F/Sgt Darling). All rest of scruffy mob are our groundcrew.

p.28: "....4,000 ft... and allowing for a suitable margin to descend further...." No way !

p.29: "Unwanted Child".....only too true !

p.29 (end): "....each successful 'op' was greeted with a "Strawberry".....[from] army/navy HQ...." (this has been the subject of some debate here).

p.30: "....Flak remained the greatest danger......Japanese fighters appeared only occasionally..." Only place we met any 'proper' flak was Akyab (ineffective). Rest was pot-shots with rifles and LMGs from Jap troops. Never saw a Jap fighter on any 'op' (bar one, special case).

p.31: "....enemy fighters seemed unwilling, or unable to engage...." I would say that the "Oscars" were more than "ready, willing and able" to make mincemeat of us any time, if only their mutton-headed ( army) Command would let them ! But they had been allocated to do "Army Support", and that was all they were allowed to do.

It does not seem to have occurred to that Command that a good way to support their army was to swat all these pesky Vengeance, which must have been hurting the army quite a bit. Luckily for me (and the rest of us), they were never allowed to try. How they must have ground their teeth in frustration !

(On our training "Fighter Affiliation" exercises, the Hurricane pilots had told us that our chances, if attacked, were slim. Whatever our "box-of-six" did, they could easily keep their sights on us - [our rear guns ?] - loud guffaw !)

p.32: ".......attacking the target in two 'vics' from opposite directions...." Goodnight, nurse !

do. "........caught in the blast from the bombs of the aircraft in front....." Our technique was designed to exclude that possibility.

do. "......The Vengeances swept down through thick cloud to register a direct hit....." What a load of bovine-droppings !

do. ".....ammunition dump....the bombs and incendiaries...." Why incendiaries on a bomb dump ? Fuel dump or tank farm, certainly. (Never dropped anything except H.E. myself).

do. ".....Trials were even undertaken to use the Vengeance to carry poison gas......" Step forward, Danny.

do. ".....and that the men who crewed them....." Probably all dead by now, 'cept me, I suppose.

Danny.

Union Jack
3rd Nov 2016, 23:27
I hope that I may be allowed to draw attention to news of the well deserved award of the HCAP Master's Trophy for the Australian Region for 2016 to John Eacott at http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/586556-rotorheads-regular-john-eacott-honoured.html No arguments with that one.....

A big BZ to John and best wishes to him and a very proud dad - hope all is well with him.:ok:

Jack

Bucc Man
4th Nov 2016, 07:40
Dear all, I started reading this thread back in 2008 but soon drifted away. I came back to it and restarted from #0001 in Jan 2016 and have at last caught up to the current page. What can I say, just a huge thank you to all contributors.

Bucc

(For Danny: age is 60, RAF ground crew, to Sgt, avionics, 11 years, mostly Buccaneer then VC10 Tankers)

Madbob
5th Nov 2016, 13:47
Danny, I hope that this will amuse you.......


1203


Credit goes to my old BFT QFI for sending it to me and I claim no credit for the art work.


MB

Danny42C
5th Nov 2016, 14:00
Bucc Man (#9663),

Worked right through from #1 to today ! As my old Dad used to say to me: "You have the heart of Nelson, Son !"

Knocking off "War and Peace" in an afternoon should be child's play. Only 60 (nobbut a lad, then - generation behind me, but welcome in our cybercrewroom nevertheless).

You have tales to tell, this is the place.

Cheers, Danny.

MPN11
5th Nov 2016, 15:00
Madbob ... brilliant. Thanks for posting!!

Danny42C
5th Nov 2016, 20:53
Madbob,

What a wonderful 'Caption' picture it would make !

Suggest:

"Now what was it I came upstairs for ?"

Madbob
5th Nov 2016, 21:22
Danny
I'm delighted that you like it. I must say it tickles me. As for your suggestion I will post it again on the captions thread in the morning. (Kind moderators permitting....)

For starters......

"Stannah say it's stressed to 6.5 g, are you sure you're still A1,G1, Z1?"

MB

Pom Pax
6th Nov 2016, 01:05
Sixty years ago today the British invasion of Egypt had started, Eisenhower was being reelected, Soviet tanks were crushing the Hungarian uprising and I was at R.A.F Hornchurch for preselection.

Geriaviator
7th Nov 2016, 08:53
Just found references to this gentleman S/Ldr Rupert Parkhouse on FBook recently celebrating his 70th Wedding Anniversary to his wife Rosemary. Shot down in 1940 flying a Fairey Battle over France (5 years a PoW) then a post war Sunderland pilot involved in the Berlin Airlift

Oh to get his memories posted on this thread
We shall, we shall! Last month's posting by PZU - Out of Africa (Retired) chimed with me as my father served with 142 Sqn at Berry-au-Bac 1939/1940. While Mr. Parkhouse is now 95 and his memory is failing, his family has enabled me to access three hours of recordings which he made 21 years ago, and his son Richard is providing pictures from his Service.

There is very little material from those dark Blitzkrieg days probably because so few survived the slaughter of the Fairey Battles. Mr. Parkhouse, then 19 years old, survived being shot down by the Me109s of JG26 on his second operation and spent five years in captivity. I am transcribing his enthralling story and hope to start posting towards the end of this month.

Chugalug2
7th Nov 2016, 09:23
Geriaviator, that is wonderful news, and thank you for making Sqn Ldr Parkhouse's story available to us! This is now becoming the default method by which the thread OP is adhered to, with the honourable exception of Danny of course, who is an eternal honourable exception! :ok:

Fareastdriver
7th Nov 2016, 15:27
Off I went to stores to pick up my jungle kit. A jungle hat, two olive green aertex shirts and two pairs of olive trousers with extra pockets on the thighs. The famous jungle boots; ankle length lace-up fabric efforts with rubber soles. A 38 pattern belt and a fabric holster completed the ensemble. A short walk to the armoury and collect my weapon; an old .38 Smith & Wesson and two boxes, a total of twelve rounds, of ammunition dated 1947. They asked me if I had fired a .38 before and my positive answer was my FEAF Arms Qualification.

Apart from spares socks and shreddies and something to change into in the evenings I could go in what I stood up in. There was nowhere to put anything else and with the restricted payload of the Whirlwind we couldn’t take the weight. One of the sergeant pilots was to fly me out there and gave me a brief on get to get there. “Fly 100 degrees for twenty-five minutes and we should be over Tenom. Then fly 129 degrees for twenty-five minutes and we should be over Sepulot.” I already had a used map so the tracks from anywhere to anywhere were already drawn on it. The first part was over the sea so we collected two lifejackets for the trip. The wasn’t a dinghy on board but as we would only be couple of miles from the coast it wasn’t considered necessary. There not being al lot else to say we got in an fired it up.

Once it was burning and turning the most important thing was to make sure the HF radio worked. Ten minutes after take off it would be the only form of communication available, there being no VHF or UHF stations around. The Army communications. net was of no use as we did not have the right equipment. Once we were airborne we were on our own.

The track took us just south of the cost and then we came to North Borneo proper. There was sparse, in any, habitation and the land appeared to be rough grass with patches of greenery; in fact it looked just like the New Forest. Tenom, at that time just one street with a few shacks spread around came into view and we turned over the top and set up 129 degrees. After about five miles the clearances for the palm oil plantations dried up. We were now flying over a continuous cauliflower and broccoli patch except these were 150-180 foot high,

There was no end to it. It was just a sea of green with an undulating surface which represented hills. Looking in the valleys one could sometimes see a flash of reflected sunlight from the river hidden below. On the horizon were some bigger lumps which could be described as topographical features but as there was nothing to compare them to they were useless for estimating height or distance. Occasionally there would be a scar in the scenery and one would look down at a tangle of trees where one had succumbed, fallen, and then careered down the hill taking a clutch of smaller trees with it. There was nowhere to go if the engine stopped. Should one be very lucky a very rare clear patch above a river but in extremis it was a case of flopping into the trees. The theory being that the energy being absorbed by the rotor blades being broken up would slow the descent so that it was survivable.

In the last few minutes the scenery ahead started to change. The glimmer of wrinkly tin (lightweight corrugated steel sheets) and then the airstrip came into view. No radio, no joining procedure, an airman dressed in shorts and flip flops coming out to meet us was the first indication that they knew we had arrived. There was a group of log landing pads at one end and after landing and shut down I had a look around.

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee224/fareastdriver/1-1-2010_002_1.jpg (http://s229.photobucket.com/user/fareastdriver/media/1-1-2010_002_1.jpg.html)

The airstrip had some vintage as it was the only bit of flat land in the immediate area. The Sepulot river was the main North/South artery in Sabah and Sepulot was at the joining of a major tributary. It had been in place before the 2nd W/W and the Japanese had used it as a base. There was a small hut by the airstrip used by the Twin Pins of Borneo Airways and 209 Sqn. On their side were rows of Avgas drums and on our side there were rows of Avtur drums. Up the hill was our ops and accommodation.

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee224/fareastdriver/1-1-2010_004.jpg (http://s229.photobucket.com/user/fareastdriver/media/1-1-2010_004.jpg.html)

The black building was put up by the Japanese and was used as the wireless room. BASO, a RAF Navigator who had landed a years posting there looked after the tasking and was also the camp commandant. The large building at the top was the aircrew accommodation with the ground crew to the left. There was a platoon of Ghurkha signals who looked after the radios and did all the donkey work around the camp. The poles at the right of the large building held up the water drums that supplied the showers. The weather was simple. Light fog in the early morning, clear skies until 13.00 hrs. Heavy showers until 14.30 hrs and then a balmy afternoon and evening. Once a week, normally Tuesdays, there would be a thunderstorm at midnight.

And so I had arrived in a place that I was going to get used to.

[QUOTE][/The theory being that the energy being absorbed by the rotor blades being broken up would slow the descent so that it was survivable.QUOTE]

This theory was proved to be correct a couple of years later.

MPN11
7th Nov 2016, 18:14
oh, that does look lovely :)

I used to complain about the noise of the centralised air conditioning ducts in the 'New Wing" at Tengah :)

ricardian
7th Nov 2016, 20:27
13 MSU, Ceylon in 1945. An interesting story about a long-lost letter to 1112204 LAC Hughes, H. (http://your.asda.com/news-and-blogs/asda-leigh-war-letter?platform=facebook)

Danny42C
7th Nov 2016, 20:47
FED (#9672),

...Now that is a "Des. Res." and no mistake ! The theory being that the energy being absorbed by the rotor blades being broken up would slow the descent so that it was survivable.
This theory was proved to be correct a couple of years later...
Same seemed to hold true for a Vengeance whittled-down to a bare fuselage after an unscheduled half-mile bumpy ride through the Arakan jungle.

Octane
8th Nov 2016, 01:22
Any photo's of that Danny?! I guess if you lose the wings you don't have to worry about catching fire?...!

radar101
8th Nov 2016, 07:11
certainly a future Gp Capt GD/P married to a fellow flt cdr on IOT in the earlyish 80s and I suspect she went higher.


I taught an aussie Sqn Ldr Eng who went on to 2* (and Aussie of the year, OA etc). Late in life she married another 2*. How about that for a cumulative pension?

Wander00
8th Nov 2016, 08:10
That's pretty impressive.

Danny42C
8th Nov 2016, 11:35
Octane (#9676),

Most of fuel in wings as you surmise. But 20 galls in "trap" (collection) tank under my feet, quite enough to barbecue self and gunner.

Sadly, no photos taken AFAIK (piles of scrap not uncommon in those days).

Whole story (in sections) told on Open Post here long ago, but have collated them into a separate Folder (with comment from hindsight).

Not wishing to bore the pants off the good folk here, will not put it on Open Post, and fed-up with PM Inbox at the buffers, if you would like to read whole sad story, PM me with your email and I will send it to you that way.

Danny.

Danny42C
9th Nov 2016, 10:32
Chugalug (#9671),
... Geriaviator, that is wonderful news, and thank you for making Sqn Ldr Parkhouse's story available to us!..Amen to that !
...Danny of course, who is an eternal honourable exception!...
ETERNAL ? (Say it ain't so !). Please don't tempt Providence like that - I'm too young to die !

Danny.

Union Jack
9th Nov 2016, 11:41
ETERNAL ? (Say it ain't so !). - Danny

Righto! It ain't so - probably a typo when what Geriviator really meant to say was "infernal"....:ok:

Jack

Danny42C
9th Nov 2016, 12:54
Jack,

I resemble that remark !

Conrad had the best take on it:

"Rest after labour
Port after stormy seas
Death after Life
Doth greatly please"

Danny.

Schiller
9th Nov 2016, 15:02
Much older than Conrad, Danny. Edmund Spenser, I think.

Danny42C
9th Nov 2016, 16:09
Schiller,


Edmund Spenser: Faerie Queene. Book I. Canto IX. (http://spenserians.cath.vt.edu/TextRecord.php?textsid=73)
You're right, of course ! (Puts Dunce's Cap on, stands in the corner).


Danny.

mmitch
10th Nov 2016, 15:09
Another year passes Danny. My respects for perhaps a quiet birthday this year? Anyway raise a glass. :)
mmitch.

Geriaviator
10th Nov 2016, 15:14
This erudite discussion is highly commendable, gentlemen, but our flying hours seem rather low these days. Pray exit the corner, Danny, while I whet your appetites with just one of Sqn Ldr Rupert Parkhouse's remarkable stories which will be serialised when 10,000 words of recording transcripts are completed at the end of this month.

Tales of training at RAF Cranwell in 1939, memories and even photographs of POW life in Stalag Luft III, flying heavily loaded Sunderlands on the Berlin Airlift … his descriptions are utterly enthralling. In this excerpt he describes events on June 10 1940, when he arrived straight from training to replace the terrible losses of 12 Sqn, operating Fairey Battles at Souges in the Loire Valley in a vain bid to halt the German advance.


http://s20.postimg.org/blo10zsj1/berryaubac12sqn.jpg

When I went down to the dispersal points on my first morning I was surprised when a rather wizened flight sergeant wearing WW1 medals and RFC wings asked me if I would air-test a Battle for him. Well, I was dying to get back in the air again so I walked to the machine with my parachute and was amazed when he came along with a flying helmet and jumped into the back.

I had never flown a Battle with bombs on before … I climbed to 5000ft and tried one or two manoeuvres including a half-hearted stall turn. Unfortunately I hadn't made any allowance for the extra 1000lb weight of the bombs and I was very surprised when the aircraft flicked over onto its back. I recovered quite quickly, took the aircraft back in to land, misjudged the approach and had to come in with an awful lot of engine on. What the poor flight sergeant in the back thought of all this I was to find out later. Anyway we landed with a thump, and we stopped before the line of aircraft at the other end of the field.

While I signed the authorisation book in the flight commander's tent I couldn't help overhearing the flight sergeant in the maintenance tent alongside. He was expostulating about 'That bloody Pilot Officer Parkhouse ... I'm never going to fly with that bugger again!' And frankly I didn't blame him, because the ammunition pan for the Vickers machine-gun had come off and hit him on the head.


Three days later, 19-year-old Rupert would be struggling to escape from the cockpit of his blazing Battle after being attacked by a dozen yellow-nosed Me109s from the dreaded JG26. And this only 14 months after leaving school.

MPN11
10th Nov 2016, 15:55
One can only gape in awe at what happened to those young men in those days.

And on Sunday we WILL remember them. All of them, the fallen and the lucky ones. We only plant a badged Poppy Cross for the Air Force fallen, as all our family generations have ended up RFC/RNAS/RAF. ... and that tale reminds us of how xlose to the edge the RAF was in those dark days.

Chugalug2
10th Nov 2016, 17:24
For those who've heard the story before, apologies! At least I've remembered that I have told it before!:)

One of the regular attendees at our annual 30 Squadron reunions was once a rear gunner on Fairey Battles in those early months of WWII. Somehow he had survived the suicidal daylight ops against heavy flak and Me109s alike (although now he has sadly passed on).

The frequent award of well earned medals for these operations only caused a growing irritation in him. As an airman (before the policy to make all non-commissioned aircrew SNCOs and above) he personally was denied such recognition. "The Bloody pilots and bloody navigators got the gongs, and I got none!", he complained. Once into his stride he continued with his diatribe, "The barrel of our gun would overheat as we engaged attacking fighters, which we duly reported". The solution? "Then fire them less often ", they were told!

Great heroism against overwhelming odds, which as MPN11 reminds us will be in our minds tomorrow, as well as on Sunday. We will remember them!

PS, Nice "teaser", Geriaviator. Popcorn to hand!

JustinL
10th Nov 2016, 18:50
My apologies for the long radio silence. I hadn't noticed the new replies.

Danny42C - thank you very much for confirming my suppositions. It all helps to build up a picture of his last hew months. If you thought the photo was lovely, the one attached here is even more poignant when one considers that Paul was dead less than a year later.

ian16th (#9622) - what a great job you did. I'd be very grateful to have a crease-free version.

chugalug (#9624) - I don't think that Paul's logbook survived. I am in touch with his 90-year-old sister, who says she thinks of Paul almost every day, but she hasn't mentioned the logbook.

Danny42C
10th Nov 2016, 19:46
Chugalug (#9688),

A glaring example of this scandalous "apartheid" was the action which eaned F/O Garland and Sgt Gray a VC each in an attack with a "Battle" on the Dutch bridges in 1940.

"Both Garland and Gray were awarded the Victoria Cross posthumously. Leading Aircraftman Reynolds, the third member of the crew, did not receive a medal because he was not in a "decision making" position". [Wiki].

Presumably on the grounds that he did not need to be brave to get killed.

Words fail me.

Danny.

Box Brownie
10th Nov 2016, 19:56
You have said it all Danny!

I have Bob Pearce, a Battle rear gunner, on tape. Once I can get to finish John Dunbar, I will put Bob's words on here.

Danny42C
10th Nov 2016, 20:03
When I was a boy in Liverpool in the Twenties, Armistice Day was properly remembered. On the stroke of eleven, all city traffc stopped, the shops were silent, pedestrians stood silent on the pavements (the men bareheaded, mostly 'at attention'), not a murmer was heard for the Two Minutes Silence.

It was immensely moving (pity about the disabled ex-servicemen begging in the streets, or scratching a meagre living as a match seller, pavement artist or a busker).

Danny.

taxydual
10th Nov 2016, 20:21
Regarding Sgt Gray VC.

As an 18 year old spotty youth at college, I was intensely jealous of my best friend who had a spectacular girlfriend.

His girlfriend knew of of my interest in joining the Royal Air Force and one evening she astounded me by producing from her handbag a Victoria Cross. "This was awarded to my uncle, he was in the RAF" she said " he was killed in the war".

The girlfriend was taking it to a museum (as far as I can recall) and just had it in her handbag.

I didn't know of Sgt Thomas Gray VC then. I do now.

Geriaviator
11th Nov 2016, 16:41
All too true, Chugalug, I'm afraid. My late father served in France with 142 Sqn (Fairey Battles) and recalled that in the pre-war RAF officers did not speak to the humble erks except through an NCO. The gunners did not meet the officer crew members until boarding, and even then they were seldom told where they were going. When (and if) they got back the gunner was expected to carry out normal duties as well as flying.

As Danny says Flying Officer Donald Garland and his observer/nav Sgt Tom Gray for their gallant attack on the Veldwezelt Bridge over the Albert Canal on May 12 1940. The rear gunner, LAC Lawrence Reynolds, got nothing. All three are buried alongside in Heverlee War Cemetery, Belgium.

Fareastdriver
11th Nov 2016, 18:35
Even in 1965 in Labuan we had groundcrew who were 'secondary winchmen'. I don't knew whether or what extra pay they got but several times I went on a winch training detail with none other than him and a filled dummy or a tin can with a spider welded on top so that the winch could snag on something.

Wander00
11th Nov 2016, 18:57
I recall until relatively recently the nation remembered on Remembrance Sunday. however, in more recent time the 11 November has regained some of its true significance - any one know just when "11 November" made come back

MPN11
11th Nov 2016, 19:16
Yes I can. Under RBL pressure in the 1990s, the Silence was re-introduced. Haven't found a specific date, though

Authority: Jersey Evening Post, 11 Nov 16. I'm sure better sources exist.

http://support.britishlegion.org.uk/app/answers/detail/a_id/342/~/the-two-minute-silence

Warmtoast
12th Nov 2016, 10:19
JusatinL
ian16th (#9622) - what a great job you did. I'd be very grateful to have a crease-free version.Beat him to it - crease-free version attached.
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/USA%201942%20Scratch%20free_zpsfyplrmws.jpg

A handsome "Southern Belle" and handsome young man.
WT

Warmtoast
12th Nov 2016, 10:36
Re. Flying Officer Donald Garland VC (mentioned above).

Three of his brothers also lost their lives whilst flying in WW2. Citation for his VC and photos here:
Donald Edward Garland (1918 - 1940) - Find A Grave Photos (http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=pv&GRid=9440428&PIpi=77031154)

Warmtoast
12th Nov 2016, 12:08
RAF Flying VCs


Further to posts above. Whilst I was at 5FTS (RAF Thornhill) S. Rhodesia between 1951 - 1953 the airmen's billets were all named after RAF VCs. I lived in two of these billets whilst at 5 FTS, namely Reid Billet and Ward Billet. By the entrance there was a notice with details of the citation - quite a moving experience as most flying VCs were awarded to airmen who'd lost their life.


Reid Billet at 5 FTS in 1952.


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Thornhill/ReidBillet1_zpsce8020e6.jpg


Billet interior - just before the RATG closed in 1953 - lots of empty beds as personnel were posted home


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Thornhill/Thornhill%20-%20Ward%20Billet%20-%20Interior%20View_zpsgfvb5tz1.jpg

mikehallam
12th Nov 2016, 12:44
Danny et al,

The LAA AGM, which I recently braved the elements to fly into at Sywell, was graced by a WWII Lancaster pilot's address.
He related his RAF experiences through training in Canada to bombing raids and how the complement of the whole crew as a team was essential to help survival.

Luckily the LAA made a video now on-line, it lasts over an hour and all spoken from a standing position without notes.
Fascinating to be there and today of all days to re-listen.

Welcome to the Light Aircraft Association (http://www.lightaircraftassociation.co.uk/2016/News/Rusty.html)

mike hallam.

mikehallam
12th Nov 2016, 14:52
This link is easier:-

https://youtu.be/OrKNK3Ev3Rw

OrKNK3Ev3Rw

Danny42C
12th Nov 2016, 21:15
mikehallam (#9701),

Just watched it through, am sitting stunned and humble. When I think of what these chaps did, and contrast it with my own largely risk-free 'operations', there is nothing I can usefully say. You youngsters, look at what your Grandfathers went through, and say "thank you".

My (Auxiliary) C.O. ('51-'54), on 3608 Fighter Control Unit, Wg Cdr David Brown, was on 101 Squadron. An Air Gunner, never knew what he did - but it earned him a DSO. Of course, the iron rule was/is: "Never ask, never tell", he was several years older than I, so must surely be dead, will never know now.

And what a marvellous old chap ! (please, LAA, can you point him in our direction ?) Cannot be more than 2-3 years younger than I, confident on his feet for more than an hour and speaking fluently without notes. (I cannot stay upright [with two sticks] for more than 5 mins). For that matter, D. of E. same age as myself, still getting around all right.

Mike, you have done us all a service, and I thank you (and the LAA) for it . Everybody who has not seen this must do so (your first link "Welome to the Light Aircraft Association" worked fine for me, but you might have to wait a bit for it to come up).

Danny.

Union Jack
12th Nov 2016, 23:03
Of course, the iron rule was/is: "Never ask, never tell", he was several years older than I, so must surely be dead, will never know now. - Danny

A wee shoogle with Google brings up several very interesting, and illustrated, mentions of the man himself, Danny, including

RAF Log Book (Brown DSO) (http://www.ww2rafcollection.co.uk/RAF_Collection/RAF_Log_Book_%28Brown_DSO%29.html)

and others you will almost certainly consider to be well worth a shufti.:ok:

Jack

Danny42C
13th Nov 2016, 13:20
Jack,

Thank you again for extending my horizons (you're never too old to learn). Thought Dave's citation rather bland, suspect it conceals a much larger, "hush-hush" story, never to be told. And that meticulously written logbook - puts mine to shame !

But three Tours ! Listen to Rusty Waumann's account of just one Tour - and think what three meant. From memory, I think it was reckoned that you had a 42% chance of surviving one tour, 17% of surviving two, and virtually 0% of three. Gibson the Dambuster (among a few others) survived three, and was paraded round the US as an example of what the RAF could do. Pre-war entrant, he was a Wing Commander at 23 (and KIA at 23).

Calm and unflappable, David was an ideal Boss. Never interfered, left me to get on with my job; I can only remember his being angry with me once - and I richly deserved it ! I'm proud of having been his Adjutant at Thornaby sixty years ago. Always remember his sardonic comment when I told him of my intention to commit matrimony at the tender age of 32 - " It's now or never !"

Watched the Parade again this morning, "Burma Star" seemed a bit thin on the ground.

Cheers, Danny.

Coochycool
16th Nov 2016, 23:24
Just noticed with shock that this thread had somehow managed to slip down to Page 2? What on Earth is PPrune coming to these days? Duly bumping it up.

I coincidentally noticed that the thread starter Cliffnemo hasn't posted for a while, might I humbly ask if he is still with us?

One day I'll find the time to read this thread from scratch again.

Meanwhile, once again Thankyou Danny...One of the best things on the net.

Cooch

Union Jack
17th Nov 2016, 09:05
Coochy

May I sadly and respectfully draw your attention to Post #2486 dated 6 April 2012 on page 125 (by my numbering) of this outstanding thread, which Cliff started and by which he will most certainly be long remembered with great affection and admiration.

Jack

Coochycool
17th Nov 2016, 11:56
As surmised.

Thanks for the heads up UJ.

We will remember them....

Danny42C
18th Nov 2016, 18:59
Coochy,

Thank you for rescuing this incomparabe Thread from the Slough of Despond (Page 2).

We owe it to Cliff's memory.

Danny.

MPN11
18th Nov 2016, 19:17
"When I was at Strubby (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Strubby)" ... I never knew [in the past] what an interesting history it had. From my POV, it was just another airfield in Lincolnshire doing 'useful' post-WW2 work as the home of the "Heavy' side of the School of Refresher Flying* with their Varsity's/Varsities/Big Fat Aircraft.

*Which is an indicator of how big the RAF was in the 60s, that they had an airfield [two, if you include Manby, and their irritating JPs ;)] that were virtually dedicated 'Refreshing' desk-wallah types and cross-trainers to go back into various parts the flying world. Two airfields.

Discuss ;)

Chugalug2
18th Nov 2016, 19:56
All the military airfields that were strewn over the length and breadth of this fair land had an interesting history, though perhaps some more than others. Dating from 1942 it was a relatively late kid on the block and joined an already impressive list:-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_former_Royal_Air_Force_stations

My memory of Strubby is both brief and sad. On 6 February 1968 my crew delivered Hastings WD340 there. For both the co-pilot and myself it was to be our last flight as operating crew on type. I gave him the leg in a magnanimous gesture that put the onus on him rather than me to ensure a landing rather than an arrival. He rose to the challenge admirably!

As we approached the apron a Flt Sgt signalled us to keep the outers turning (we always shut down the inners on the taxy in). We put a ladder down for him, he clambered aboard, came up to the cockpit and said, "Could you taxy back out towards the runway, but just after the last bend before the holding point, go over the grass towards a gap in the hedge and into the field beyond. On the far side of it are the remains of a burned out Canberra. Just shut her down there and I'll be following with MT to bring you back here to await your lift home" (by another Sqn Hastings).

And so she went off unsuspecting to her final resting place, fully serviceable and with "No Further Faults" entered into the F700, for Fire Fighting Training. I asked if there would be a possibility of getting the Captain's Control Wheel from it? "No chance until it's written off charge, Sir". If I left my Service address could it then be forwarded to me? "No problem, Sir, I'll see to it personally". Must have got lost in the post! :{

CharlieJuliet
18th Nov 2016, 20:17
MPN 11. I was at Manby/Strubby in 64 - 65. At that time the CAW used Manby for JP/Varsity and Strubby was Meteor/Canberra. I was posted to Manby as a co on the Varsities on completion of FTS for a few months before completing AFS on the Meteor at Strubby. By then the only sleeping accommodation at Strubby was the Officers Mess Nissen huts although there was dining for all. I believe that the Meteor engineering had been civilianised by then. Great memories, and in some ways better than completing AFS on the Gnat.

Danny42C
18th Nov 2016, 21:47
I did my first ATC tour at Manby/Strubby '55-'58. Manby was the home of the Empire Flying School (we still had an Empire), with "Gus" Walker as the Commandant. There was little movement at Manby apart from visitors and the handful of School Lincolns, all the rest of the action was at its "satellite" - Strubby, a few miles away. The major user there was a very busy Meteor AFS, to which were added the School Canberras and Meteors, with (towards the end) a sole Hunter.

It was a 1945 airfield frozen in time. The Tower, the hangars and the Nissen hutted camp were straight out of WWII, you would not have been in the least surprised to see bomb trolleys being towed around the dispersals and a file of Lancasters moving slowly out to the runway at dusk for the night's raid over Germany.

ATC was very high-intensity indeed, many days we had more movements than Heathrow. We had CR/DF in Approach, and the dear old "Bendix" (MPN-1) Radar (the "Stephenson's Rocket"of GCAs) on the field, but no ILS.

Local Control was the usual garden shed on top of an old square Tower, cold, draughty, leaky and reached (I think) by an outside staircase. There were no WRAF at Strubby (but there were at Manby). One SATCO covered both: we looked forward to our turns at being "rested" for a week at Manby - it was a haven of peace and tranquillity.

Many people lived out in Mablethorpe and Sutton (5-6 miles away on the coast). Newly married, I had the best "hiring" I ever saw (in Mablethorpe). Happy Days !

Danny.

Wander00
19th Nov 2016, 09:10
CJ - I learn something every day. Did not realised people still doing AFS on Meteor in 65 time. I went the Gnat in Jan 66, and have always regretted that I missed the Hunter by a few courses in each direction. Some of us from the Towers refreshed at Manby at the end of 65 as we had finished the JP course in about October and need to brush up before hitting the Gnat, or t'other way about

MPN11
19th Nov 2016, 09:11
Interesting that we have several 'ex-Strubby' here! Indeed, I may well have spoken to some of you :ok:

It was my first ATC tour, 65-67. As with Danny42C, I recall the leaky garden shed that passed for Local ... and indeed it was 'outside access' from the right side of the DF Approach Room. in my time we had the 'posh' MPN11 GCA and also ILS on what was rw 27. With 6,100 ft of HM Tarmac, and decent aids, it was a popular location for Practice Diversions by RAF and USAF alike. Indeed, on quiet nights when the CAW Canberras [later Dominies*] were away getting their Nav students lost, and the Varsities were having a night off, either I or my plt off oppo on the other Watch used to call the Fighter Command Diversion Cell at Patrington touting for trade to alleviate the boredom.

Ahh, Night Flying. Being Flying Training Command, that really meant getting the students flying in the dark. So in high Summer proceedings wouldn't begin until 2130+, and often not finish until 0400+. By the time I got to my bed in the Mess at Manby, their JPs would have started their endless gyrations round the circuit, overfying the Mess in the process ... and I needed my sleep, as I would be back on Watch at 1200/1300 (depending on what position I was rostered). Ugh.

Yes, CharlieJuliet, the Officers Mess was still just about functioning in my time ... doing 'Night Flying Suppers' and nothing else. All the accommodation had been shut down, so it was just kitchen and dining room with a few armchairs at the side. The Manby Orderly Officer used to have to drive over to check the Domestic Site was secure during the evening. By my arrival [Sep 65] the Meteors were gone, Manby was 'pure' JP and Strubby was Varsity/Canberra ... although Sgt Bou***r (c/s 63, IIRC) used to fly a Meteor in from Chivenor every Friday afternoon to see his squeeze, and depart first thing Monday to have the jet back in time for Chiv's second wave :)


* The Staff Nav instructors complained that the Domine lacked the range to get the students properly lost ;)

spekesoftly
19th Nov 2016, 13:12
Strubby was also my first ATC tour, although some years later (Spring 1971 until it closed in September 1972). By then Strubby Approach was located in the Manby Approach room, with just a PAR (SLA3C) position remaining in the Strubby Approach room. Varsities and Dominies operated from Strubby, and Jet Provosts (including the Macaws aerobatic team) from Manby. When Manby's runways were closed for resurfacing, the JPs temporarily moved to Strubby, and it's opening hours were extended to accommodate the additional flying programme. Some of the Manby Controllers were quickly checked out on Strubby positions to help cover the extra hours.

When Strubby finally closed, the Varsities moved to Oakington, and the Dominies to Manby, which lacked a precision approach aid. The JPs had happily operated for many years with QGHs and SRAs (using the Manby AR1 and ACR7 radars), but the Dominies had been spoilt at Strubby with its PAR, ILS and NDB (albeit the NDB non-precision). Because Dominie operations at Manby might be restricted by the lack of a precision aid, it was decided to install an old MPN11 radar at Manby, probably making it one of the very few RAF airfields with three radar installations!

Following Strubby's closure, ATC staff were either posted (approaching tourex), or retrained at Manby, as did I. I'll always remember the Manby and Strubby ATC Sqn as a very happy team, with a good mix of aircrew on ATC ground tours, direct entrant ATCOs, and ex-WWII aircrew, whose experience and friendly guidance was invaluable to we youngsters.

MPN11
19th Nov 2016, 14:05
Yay! Another one!! Thanks for the updates, especially as I knew things had changed dramatically but had never found any detail (until now). Glad to see the MPN11 came to the rescue at Manby :) Some major changes and investment at both airfields in your time ... no wonder it all closed! :)

So, they eventually rebuilt Strubby Local ... and about bloody time too. Do you know when that happened? I've seen pictures of a proper Gaydon-type Local, and often wondered how/when. Did Manby ever get a proper VCR?

I recall a degree of 'antipathy' by the Strubby ATCOs towards Manby's, as they would keep letting their mini-jets get in the way of our GQH and GCA patterns, especially when we were (mercifully rarely) on the Easterly runways. :)

Afterthought: Despite being subtantially post-WW2, I always had the sensation at Strubby that I was half living in the past. It was certainly a time of great change actoss the whole RAF. Just think ... from Meteors to Dominies in one blink of an eye! And MPN11 to AR1 :)

spekesoftly
19th Nov 2016, 16:44
MPN11,

Sorry, I don't know when Strubby Local was rebuilt, in my time the design was as it appears in this link:-

RAF Strubby airfield (http://www.controltowers.co.uk/S/Strubby.htm)

I do recall that the VCR was accessible via an internal staircase, and the external route was also still available.

When I arrived at Manby in 1971, the ATC building was relatively new, built in about 1967 I believe, and remotely located on the far west side of the airfield. The original WWII Control Tower building (next to the hangars) was then Flying Wing HQ, but the ACR7 radar displays were still located and operated from this building. Shortly after I arrived, the ACR7 displays were moved to the new tower. The following link has photos of both Control Towers:-

RAF Manby airfield (http://www.controltowers.co.uk/M/Manby.htm)

My recollection is that there was a very good working relationship between the Manby and Strubby Controllers, helped I think by both Approach functions being co-located in the same room. Inevitably there was plenty of the usual friendly banter!

But I do recall one occasion when I was "talking down" a Varsity on Strubby PAR when another radar return briefly appeared on both the elevation and azimuth displays. Possibly a JP, but nothing conclusive, and the Manby AR1 was out of service at the time.

MPN11
19th Nov 2016, 16:58
Ah, a NEW Tower ... that was a transformation! I had only seen the pics of the old one (labelled as Ops) by the hangars. How did I fail to find that link???

In my time, Manby Local was done with a pin-board in the Approach Room, and with absolutely no view of final to 05! A new proper ATC was long overdue ... and another major build before closure! :)
PS: The ACR7 consoles (x 2) were in the back room on the right side. I've seen pictures with PAR in place, so clearly it was a Mega Upgrade.

Hempy
20th Nov 2016, 08:09
Good story in the hometown local rag today. He's looking very sprightly at (by my count) 94 too!

First flight since 1944 | The Border Mail (http://www.bordermail.com.au/story/4303926/first-flight-since-1944/)

CharlieJuliet
20th Nov 2016, 11:20
From my logbook I see that I did my Final Handling Test on 26 Mar 65 and on 21 April I flew my last sortie at Strubby, delivering T7 WL 380 to Kemble. I expect that this must have been among the last deliveries as I also flew T7 VW 427 to Kemble on 2 April. I then went onto 85 Sqn flying Meteors until my Hunter course at Chivenor started in August.

Danny42C
20th Nov 2016, 16:10
MPN11 (#9715),
"Ahh, Night Flying......doing Night Flying Suppers..."
How well do I remember them - both as an aspiring and (much later) refreshee aviator (but never did any apart from that), and of course in ATC. (As 'watchkeepers', it was up to us to arrange our own mealtimes, so we were excluded from the feasts).

They were usually laid on in the interval between the first (dual) phase of the programme and the second (solo) phase. On the first night, the diners were unnaturally quiet. The QFIs tucked-in with gusto, they had foiled their Bloggs' best efforts to kill them both. They would see another dawn.

Bloggs was not at all sure that he would. The JP (or whatever) he was happy with by day now sat in silent menace under the cold pan lights, waiting for him. The sadist under whose vocal lash he had suffered these past weeks was now magically transmuted into a "Guardian Angel" figure. Bloggs thought of the empty seat soon to be beside him and shuddered.

"Go not gentle into that dark night".....Bloggs had lost his appetite, he picked at his food. "If you don't want that last rasher, old chap", said his Instructor cheerfully, "I'll finish it for you"......

Strange things happened in this Limbo. It was in just such a time that I spotted the "UFO that never was" at Leeming and the No.1 Hangar Ghost put in an appearance on one occasion.

Only birds and fools fly, and the birds pack it in when it gets dark. (Anon).

...............................

speke softly (#9718),

What a palace the new Local looked to be ! (you could fit a full size billiard table in there).

Had they moved up from the 'Elsan', btw ?

Thanks, both.

Danny.

MPN11
20th Nov 2016, 16:30
I just find it fascinating, in the true spirit of this Thread (albeit post-WW2), to find I have trodden in such notable footprints at that obscure (and long-forgotten) corner of Lincolnshire!

For me, it was simple. I drove from MY to SB at my own expense (CBA to wait for the bus at either end) as a Plt Off with a car (posh git) and signed on Watch. It was then a few hours of the usual ATCO blathering before going 'home' again. I'm not sure I ever really thought much about what the guys were actually doing ... they just gave me a job to do, and I got on with it!

I guess the sound and smell of Hercules engines couging into life, the twinking lights on the airfield (under My Total Control) and the Pundit blinking away on the north side in a disused horseshoe disperal had a certain charm. The best bit, when the last night-flyer' landed, was sequencing the switching off of the assorted airfield lights (through that monstrously latge and complex lighting console) and chasing them to dispersal. I only overtook the aircraft once, and was rather more careful after that!!

I always enjoyed Local more than any other control position. Yellow blips on a CRT are no substitute for seeing reality, even if on occasion it causes you to hit the Crash Alarm.

Chugalug2
20th Nov 2016, 18:18
Hempy, thank you for the link to the Border Mail. Good to see another WWII pilot riding in the office that he last occupied in 1944, albeit now refurbished with a two piece suite. I assume this was a later mod, a la the Spits?

As Danny has told us before, dual instruction on the Spit amounted to learning and being tested on the contents of Pilots Notes, with a bit of advice from the left wing root with the canopy open thrown in prior to first flight/solo.

MPN11, I well remember the airfield "twinkling lights" prior to my first night flight. There was something magical in the way they defined apron, taxiways, and runway, as compared to daytime. Veritable Blackpool illuminations, that continued to impress until they all went out on a subsequent night and were eventually replaced by paraffin lit ones instead!

spekesoftly
20th Nov 2016, 19:09
spekesoftly (#9718),

What a palace the new Local looked to be ! (you could fit a full size billiard table in there).

Had they moved up from the 'Elsan', btw ?

Danny.

I don't recall much about the toilet facilities, Danny, but definitely no Elsan!

Fareastdriver
20th Nov 2016, 19:10
I went to Strubby once on a landaway from Oakington. It was after a low level navex so I needed refuelling. The bowser crew expressed total ignorance on how to refuel a Vampire so I was there on the wing. Outer wing tanks first, tighten the caps and then the inner wing tanks. When they were tight you topped up the fuselage tank.

Three years later I was in Sepulot.

I’d done my time in the Boy Scouts. I had also done my time in the Rhodesian Army so bushwacking held no fears. I had my own cubicle, about 7ft. x 5. A lightweight wooden bed with a sheet and a massive mosquito net. The last occupant had knocked up a small bedside table arrangement and a low platform was supposed to keep the bugs out of you clothes. Meals were taken with plates and suchlike and beer was available although one was limited to two cans of Tiger @ 50c a can. Cigarettes were free! The brands were a bit of a mystery but they were the ones that Her Majesty’s Customs had relieved off entrants to the UK and they were sent out to the troops. The place was comfortable enough and one was able to relax quite well.

Everything came in on the end of a parachute apart from people. The Beverleys of 34 Sqn. used to do a supply run two or three times a week. Fuel was the main criteria. There were no roads so it all had to be parachuted in. A Whirlwind used about a drum an hour so we needed at least 40 drums/week plus supplies of Avgas for the recce Sioux helicopters and the odd 209 Sqn. Pioneer. Rations, beer, ammunition, clothing and anything else would come down in a pallet which has a 4x4 foot thick plywood base which would end up as the sheet material for all the building projects. The empty drums would be rolled, or marshalled by a helicopter, into the river where they were picked up by the locals for all sorts of uses with the dregs of Avtur, about 2 gallons, being used for their stoves. They soon learned the difference between Avtur drums and Avgas. I had arrived with jungle shirts and trousers. These were hopeless in the cockpit in the prevailing temperature and humidity and the standard RAF ‘Tropical Flying Suit’ was even worse. The answer was a light RAAF Nomex overall which the RAF refused to stock. The AAC did though, so one of my first actions was to order one through the Army supply system. Two days later down it came; automatically Class C stores, so no problems about returning it.

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee224/fareastdriver/1-1-2010_006-2.jpg (http://s229.photobucket.com/user/fareastdriver/media/1-1-2010_006-2.jpg.html)

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee224/fareastdriver/12-27-2009_004.jpg (http://s229.photobucket.com/user/fareastdriver/media/12-27-2009_004.jpg.html)

You can see a 209 Sqn Twin Pioneer on the right. They took the parachutes back.

Our operational area was effectively from Long Pasir to halfway to Tawau. There was a ridge that streamed along the border between Indonesia and Malaysia and most of our operations were to clearings on our side of the ridge. They were, on the average, about twenty minutes flying and with the Whirlwind’s pathetic payload some fairly tight planning was necessary. We had two crewman on site but they did not fly on the sortie; they acted as movements and arranged the loads for the pilots who flew alone. Operating away from Sepulot there was a system where you arranged your own loading by assessing what was waiting to go. Should it be Gurkas with kit you allowed 220 lbs/person, Brits 200 and locals 160. You would then hold up a suitable number of fingers to indicate what you would take. When they emplaned and were ready they would reach up and tap you on the back of you leg to indicate they were ready to go. Things like seat belts and securing of cargo wasn’t your problem as there weren’t any seats, just belts attached to the wall, most passengers sat on the door ledge with their feet hanging over the side.

One learned the area fairly quickly on the milk runs. Even though the ground was carpeted with trees odd branch patterns would give you a unique position which was sometimes imperative to going down the right valley. When bombing off to some as yet unvisited landing site it was useful during a long leg navigating on the compass and clock to do a 360 halfway there so that you would know what the scenery is supposed to look like on the way back.

There was a Ghurkha company at Sepulot and another at Pensiangan which was in the next major valley. We would have visitors in the shape of ‘The Friends of Hereford’ who would be Brits, Oz or Kiwis. We would lift them to a clearing by the border and a couple of weeks later fly sideways to keep the smell out of the cockpit when we picked them up. There was also a clandestine unit consisting of the local tribe, Murats. They were, of course, in their own backyard and they were invaluable for tracking any strange activity in the jungle. There was one ex Colonial Officer who had been in this part of the world before the war. He could speak the local lingo and he would go to the border longhouses to suss out what was happening on the other side.

As an illustration I took him once to a place called Kabu, a longhouse on the border with just the river separating the two countries. We would fly around the longhouse a couple of times to warn them that we were coming. This was so that they could organise the children to line the side and hang on to the roof to stop our downwash blowing it off. On landing I was greeted by the headman and during the visit I had lunch, probably monkey and hill rice and he proudly showed me his chief’s medal which the British used to present to every headman.

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee224/fareastdriver/1-2-2010_020.jpg (http://s229.photobucket.com/user/fareastdriver/media/1-2-2010_020.jpg.html)

I don't know which are his wives or family.

We had one Helistart Landrover which had been parachuted in to supply us with 24 volts. It couldn’t go far; there was a track to the bridge across the river to the village and that was it. I had a wander down there one day and went across the bridge somewhat shakily.

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee224/fareastdriver/12-27-2009_011.jpg[/URL

In the centre they had a memorial stone with a Colt 0.5 in. machine gun on top. This was a memorial to a Liberator crew that crashed nearbye in 1945, captured by the Japanese and beheaded.

To be continued

Stanwell
21st Nov 2016, 10:27
An excellent post, FED. Thanks for that.
Takes me back to the days when a few hundred pounds of materiel landed a couple of feet from me due to the chute not properly deploying over the DZ.
Put the wind up me , it did.

Then there was the day when an enthusiastic but clueless youngster filled the Bell 47's tanks with avtur.
Nobody got hurt but there were a few anxious moments, there.
Anyway, we're still around to talk about it.
Stay cool.

Danny42C
21st Nov 2016, 11:22
Chugalug (#9724) and Hempy,

Yes, the two-seat P-40 would be a post-war mod, same as the Spitfire. With no experience of the "Mk.IX(T)" (and far too decrepit even to climb in), still cannot imagine that it could handle anyway like the original - which was the sweetest thing that ever flew IMHO.

I suppose the idea was to sell it as an advanced trainer (cheap, for sterling) to compete with war surplus Harvards (plentiful, but for US dollars, and nobody had any of those). At that, I think only the Irish Air Force (that figures !) and the IAF nibbled.

As the Harvard was nastier than the Spit, all the wartime chaps made the transition with ease.

Danny.

ancientaviator62
21st Nov 2016, 11:47
FED,
you will not be surprised to hear that we had the same issues with the RAF Nomex flying overalls when I was on Hercules with 48 in Changi . We used to beg and 'borrow' the self same RAAF suits.

FantomZorbin
22nd Nov 2016, 10:59
Seeing things dropping from the sky and Strubby/Manby being discussed before reminded me of an apocryphal(?) tale of ordnance being dropped on the Khasi of a local pub. Is there any truth in this??

MPN11
22nd Nov 2016, 11:24
ISTR that story, FZ. A 25lb practice bomb on a pub in Maltby-le-Marsh, was it not?

FantomZorbin
22nd Nov 2016, 15:38
That's the story I heard ... a 'flash in the pan'!!


Hat, coat etc ....

Danny42C
22nd Nov 2016, 15:46
MPN11,

Googled around a bit, came up with:

HANSARD 1803–2005 → 1950s → 1953 → November 1953 → 19 November 1953 → Commons Sitting

BOMBING RANGE, SALTFLEET,

HC Deb 19 November 1953 vol 520 cc1940-7 1940
§ 5.1 p.m.

....§Mr. Cyril Osborne (Louth) I wish to bring to the notice of the House a question that affects my constituency and, especially, villages just North of Mablethorpe. Near the village of Saltfleet there is a bombing target range which was established in the early 30's. The burden of all I wish to say on behalf of my constituents can be put into one sentence—please will the Air Ministry take the range away? We do not mind if they take it to Scotland, we do not mind if they take it to Wales, we do not mind where they lake it so long as they take it away. If they take it to some place where no one lives that would be a good thing ...........
............Just after last August Bank Holiday a rather heavy smoke bomb was dropped on a public house called the "Prussian Queen." It went through the window of a lavatory. Had it dropped half an hour earlier someone would have been knocked out, or killed. Complaints have been made of a series of bombs which were dropped miles from the target. I think my hon. Friend will agree that more than a dozen have dropped wide of the target....
The toilet seat was supposed to have been rescued from the ladies' loo and (suitably mounted and with a tablet recounting the circumstances) on display behind the Lounge bar for years.

The pub is still there. Have any more recent visitors anything to add ?

Danny.

MPN11
22nd Nov 2016, 17:19
Thanks, Danny42C ... that woke several brain cells from deep slumber! :)

For some reason I thought it was close to Strubby, but Saltfleet Range makes much more sense!

Wander00
22nd Nov 2016, 18:36
I always thought the Prussian Queen was near Donna Nook. Used to have a small boat in Saltfleetby

Fareastdriver
22nd Nov 2016, 18:49
I did my three weeks or so at Sepulot and then I flew back to Labuan. A couple of weeks doing Air Test, winching and the occasional tasking for the units in Brunei and then it was off to Tawau. I was going in an RMAF Herald and the first surprise was the captain; one of the RMAF cadets on my initial Provost T1 flying course at Tern Hill. Danny Doong was tiny; he had to have a cushion in the Provost but he had trouble with the Herald. We flew via Sandakan and arrived in Tawau.

Tawau was a city at the east of the country. A river estuary separated it from Indonesia apart from Sebatic Island which was cut in half by the border. The city itself had a good collection of shops and restaurants including one run by an Australian that could punch out superb Zizzling Steaks. I lived in the Officers’ mess on the joint RAF/RMAF base. Very civilised and again I met one of my basic course, Matt Said, who was now flying Alouettes, a smaller five seater helicopter with a far more sprightly performance than a Whirwind. Poker was the game so the evenings were spent bluffing with a stony face around a card table.

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee224/fareastdriver/1-2-2010_011.jpg (http://s229.photobucket.com/user/fareastdriver/media/1-2-2010_011.jpg.html)

We shared a common dispersal with our own technical offices on an airfield as large as Labuan. We had two Whirlwinds and the RMAF had six Alouettes. There was a fairly large Malaysian Army presence around Tawau and the Alouettes looked after them.

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee224/fareastdriver/1-2-2010_007.jpg (http://s229.photobucket.com/user/fareastdriver/media/1-2-2010_007.jpg.html)

The British contingent was up country to the west towards Sepulot. They had a large HQ clearing plus a few on a low ridge which was effectively the border. One of these on the border ridge itself was a ‘fly though’ clearing inasmuch as one could enter or exit both ways. The joke was that we used it Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays and the Indons used it Tuesdays and Thursdays.

Palau Sebatic was more interesting. There was a large Indonesian military base at Nunakan, just across the water. There was one of our observation posts conveniently on their side of a small ridge which had a gap in the hill close by. They used to observe the goings on and note what equipment they had, including a pair of M1939 anti-aircraft guns. To avoid them thinking about using these one would fly towards the northwest of the island at nosewheel skimming height. A track check would be a Whirlwind rotor head that was what all that remained from a Navy Whirlwind that had come to grief and dissolved in the seawater.( made out of magnesium). Coasting in one would fly below the tree line on our side of the ridge and when the gap came up it was a screaming max rate 180 though it and then a massive flare so that you dropped into the clearing. Clearing the trees and through the gap was almost instantaneous coming out so you were fairly safe.

From about March 1965 the squadron was almost exclusively first tourists who had arrive with no more than basic Jet Provost training and the Sioux/Whirlwind helicopter course. Ian Smith was a well known figure in those days and was the Squadron QHI. He had to teach these totally inexperienced pilots how to fly by themselves in one of the most difficult flying environments going. It is to his credit that during our time in Borneo we did not have one reportable accident. He came out to Tawau to instigate a trial.

To be continued…………..

Warmtoast
22nd Nov 2016, 19:03
MPN11. Danny et al

Errant bombs from the Saltfleet range.

Some contemporary press cuttings from October 1953 - February 1954.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/5%20Oct%201953_zps0eixdmua.jpg


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/2%20Dec%201953_zpsgdyewvkw.jpg


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/22%20Nov%201953_zpsfl8pomi0.jpg


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/Radar%2021%20Feb%201954_zpsgavghnvo.jpg

hoodie
22nd Nov 2016, 19:44
Wander00, The Prussian Queen at Saltfleetby (http://www.theprussianqueen.com/) is still going it seems.

FantomZorbin
23rd Nov 2016, 06:51
Many thanks for all of the above ... it seems that that part of Lincolnshire was 'Hard Hat' territory!! I wonder what the HSE would've made of it!!

ancientaviator62
23rd Nov 2016, 07:16
FED,
Tawau in the early seventies when I was with 38 Gp EU. Taken during our annual visit to the RMAF. I always enjoyed flying with the Labuan Caribou Squadron.
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/Misc_0000097A_zpsa6819360.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/Misc_0000097A_zpsa6819360.jpg.html)

MPN11
23rd Nov 2016, 08:51
"TENTERA UDARA DIRAJA MALAYSIA" has, strangely, remained stuck firmly in my mind since the late 60s. I have no idea why, since they were rare visitors to Tengah.

The brain is a strange and wonderful thing.

Danny42C
23rd Nov 2016, 18:00
MPN11,

True - but if you recited that while dancing widdershins round a pentacle, should evoke a spirit or two.

Sounded better as "The Federated Malay States" IMHO.

(Ipse dixit)

I always enjoyed Local more than any other control position. Yellow blips on a CRT are no substitute for seeing reality, even if on occasion it causes you to hit the Crash Alarm.
My case against a posting to Area Radar in a nutshell !

Danny.

MPN11
23rd Nov 2016, 18:06
"Royal Malaysian Airforce", says Google Translate ;)


However, my Malay was limited and now extremely rusty! Selamat petang, Inche."

ian16th
23rd Nov 2016, 19:11
214 (Federated Malaya States) squadron (http://www.214squadron.org.uk/)

Danny42C
23rd Nov 2016, 20:30
MPN-11,

Bless you (I take it that was a sneeze ?)

ian16th,

That's more like it !

ancientaviator62
24th Nov 2016, 07:12
Surely a chap of Danny's standing would be a Tuan ?

Chugalug2
24th Nov 2016, 08:17
FED:-
...and then it was off to Tawau

Ah, Tawau! We know a song about that, don't we boys and girls?

They wouldn't send me to Tawau, Tawau,
They wouldn't send me to Tawau, Tawau,
Oh, I've been to Nanga Ghat,
But I didn't fancy that,
And I'd rather be in Tawau..wau!

MPN11
24th Nov 2016, 08:37
Surely a chap of Danny's standing would be a Tuan ?
Apologies to Danny42C ... Tuan would of course have been more appropriate. I said I was rusty!

Danny42C
24th Nov 2016, 10:41
MPN11,

I'm sure that, mixed up in all this, there is a compliment ! Thanks ! (I take it that we have something like 'Sahib' in mind - in which case can we please make it 'Burra Sahib' ?)

Danny.

MPN11
24th Nov 2016, 11:10
(in Malay-speaking countries) sir; lord: a form of address used as a mark of respect

Tuan - definition of Tuan by The Free Dictionary (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Tuan)

'Nuff said ;)

FantomZorbin
24th Nov 2016, 11:25
What a fantastic thread! We've been introduced to Chinese in the past and now we've moved on to Malay ... YLSNED indeed!