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Fareastdriver
30th Jul 2016, 10:50
If you were rich enough to have fivers before the war the you could be quite well off now.
B228d CATTERNS WHITE FIVE POUND 'FIVER' NOTE 'UNC' LEEDS BRANCH ISSUE RARITY !!! | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/B228d-CATTERNS-WHITE-FIVE-POUND-FIVER-NOTE-UNC-LEEDS-BRANCH-ISSUE-RARITY/172258684960?_trksid=p2047675.c100009.m1982&_trkparms=aid%3D0%26algo%3DDISC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D37567%2 6meid%3D723d4cedbbe146f787b7c81e06a8daf9%26pid%3D100009%26rk %3D1%26rkt%3D1%26sd%3D182191133778)

Danny42C
30th Jul 2016, 12:23
Wander00,
...Those fake notes at the bottom of the lake - no Spitfires with them then.....
Sadly, no. The "Buried Spitfires" even had me going at first - but it was such a lovely pipe-dream ! - while it lasted.

Fareastdriver,

Better check they're not one of Hitlers's duds before buying ! Believe Jewish skilled engravers were saved from the death camps to work on the project, and they turned out almost undetectable forgeriies.


HEADS UP, ALL


Two things (1) this Prince of Threads has hit the 9,000 almost unnoticed - roll on 10,000 !

(2) Seems a magazine with the rather clever title of "Fly Past", in its September issue, will have a seven (?) page article on the Vultee Vengeance in India. if interested, place orders with newsagent. (No, they're NOT paying me for this ! :*).

When it comes, will go through line by line and give it the full treatment on here...:ok:

Danny.

Wander00
30th Jul 2016, 12:51
Mine due by mail any day, will read with interest

Fantome
30th Jul 2016, 12:55
Hitlers's duds

. . . . .. thought for just a moment . . . . now that's something

DHfan
30th Jul 2016, 15:26
Since my copy of the September Flypast turned up a few days ago, I imagine it's in newsagents (those that keep it) already.

Danny42C
31st Jul 2016, 13:12
Have ordered digital copy from "pocketmags" and eagerly watching inbox.

Danny.

Tashengurt
31st Jul 2016, 15:53
Danny, it's an interesting piece but I've a feeling this thread, which I'm slowly working through, might provide a more personal insight.

Danny42C
31st Jul 2016, 18:28
Tashengurt,

At first I thought that yours was rather a gnomic observation, but then realised that you are one of the lucky ones, having actually seen the "Fly Past" article.

Without seeing it, I would guess that their difficulty was that there are few Vengeance pilots left alive; a second (living) one has never yet appeared on this Thread; the best bet for the authors of the article (as I presume they know nothing of PPRUne), would have been to try BHARAT RAKSHAK for a lead into the IAF contributors on the VV. So they probably had to mine the ORBs of the Squadrons for information,and that would have little personal content.

Whereas here you have "the horse's mouth" and little else (of course, that is only as good as the horse !)

Danny.

MPN11
31st Jul 2016, 18:52
Danny42c ... and what a horse's mouth you have turned out to be! :)

PS: along with many others, of course, but Danny is a fellow former ATCO, and thus gets precedence!

Danny42C
31st Jul 2016, 18:54
Re the earlier mention of Eagles and Pelicans...

Stanwell (#8981),
...As 'Dive Bombers', they're superb and I'd noticed that they'll use the same technique as you'd so well described earlier in this thread with the Vultee Vengeance. That is, in a vertical dive, rotating about their longitudinal axis to achieve the required accuracy. They don't often miss...
It's an instinctive thing. A puff of crosswind "weathercocks" you - moves yellow line off target, you screw round to bring it into 12 o'clock, then nose up a fraction to bring it on again.

Downside (for us), you pull-out every which way (for you've no time to keep track of direction on the ground), and only then sort yourself out to find rest of mob. Keeps flak-gunners on their toes, though !

Pelicans "crash" every time, so doesn't affect them.

Now about the wedge-tailed eagle.....

Danny.

MPN11
31st Jul 2016, 19:00
Danny42c ... that 'random' pull-out heading must have been quite stimulating in hilly/mountainous terrain, when you have a limited perspective of where you're going to be pointing?!

Fareastdriver
31st Jul 2016, 19:21
On Danny's description by turning the aircraft longitudinally it follows that if there were any corrections the last part of the dive will be into wind. This means that the ground distance used up in the recovery to level flight is at it's minimum so avoidance of obstacles is optimised.
However, the ground speed is least so anti-aircraft offset is easier.

Danny42C
31st Jul 2016, 19:24
MPN11 (#9011),
... and what a horse's mouth you have turned out to be!...
Will accept that as a compliment ! True, I have the long Celtic skull and might very well be likened to an old horse. A nice old horse, of course, of the kind that young maidens love to nuzzle (for we all know the affinity between nubile females and their ponies).

Better take my tablets now !

Danny.

Danny42C
31st Jul 2016, 21:19
MPN11(#9013),
... that 'random' pull-out heading must have been quite stimulating in hilly/mountainous terrain, when you have a limited perspective of where you're going to be pointing?!...
Most of my work was on the coastal plain of Arakan, even the "hill" targets (into which the Japs liked to dig the bunkers we bombed) would only be about 500 ft high.

Trips across the Arakan Yomas to the Chindwin area river villages (Jap stores staging dumps - or at least Intelligence said they were) would always have the river to aim for on pull-out.

In Assam, Manipur was mostly 2,500 ft amsl - but the hills run up much higher. Even so once you'd pressed the button (and no longer had a target to bother about), you had a perfectly clear view ahead (might be a bit "greyed-out" with 'G') and would screw the aircraft round away from any mountain in front . It was only for the first seconds of pull-out that you were disoriented.

................


Fareastdriver (#9014),
...On Danny's description by turning the aircraft longitudinally it follows that if there were any corrections the last part of the dive will be into wind..
True, but drift changes with loss of height. Even so, in almost all cases only one correction was needed, and never more than two. In the dry season (when we needed a minimum 10,000 ft of clear air to work), you could rely on perfect weather and light and variable winds (might be a light onshore breeze in Arakan - didn't trouble us).

In all events, when you have pulled out to 45° or so, your first priority was to slacken the pull to get down to the relative safety of the treetops ASAP, and only then start to navigate ! (and only the leader had to do that, the rest just looked for the chaps ahead and tagged-on).

Only in Akyab (where they had Bofors-type - might've been ours, left behind in '42) could you see stuff coming at you and jinked as necessary (never hit anybody AFAIK).

Bit rough and ready, but worked well enough.

Cheers, both, Danny.

Tashengurt
31st Jul 2016, 21:31
Danny,
(Seems over familiar but such is the Internet I guess)
Regarding Flypast, I must admit I read the article fully expecting some input from you.
With all the print space given up to better known types it seems a missed opportunity not to have your account. Still, I'm on page 31 of this thread. I may be a while yet!

Danny42C
1st Aug 2016, 08:37
I have good reason to believe that one of our old stalwarts on this Thread celebrates his Natal Day some time this month, and will clock up another one on the old "Anno Domine" meter.

I do not know (and do not need to know) the precise date, but simply invite all of good will to say with me:

Happy Birthday, Chugalug !

Ad multos Annos !

Danny.

MPN11
1st Aug 2016, 08:50
A bit early for me to raise a glass to Chugalug, but otherwise I second that!

Chugalug2
1st Aug 2016, 09:36
Gentlemen, put down your glasses I beg of you! I am embarrassed not only by your kindness but because it is received under false pretences! Suffice it to say that I am of the sign Scorpio, sharing it with Prince Charles, a fact that Mrs C reminds me of when speaking derogatively of his second wife (don't ask!).

PPRuNe Central Control keeps careful track of my advancing years, displaying them to one and all on the info below my ID. It will click over with Swiss precision at the appointed date and send me an email to the effect should I have overlooked it. A thoughtful gesture indeed. ;-)

Fareastdriver
1st Aug 2016, 15:48
When I was in Borneo the local village of Sepulot in the middle of Sabah had a memorial to a Liberator crew that has crashed. The wreckage was still visible if you knew where to look. Unfortunately for them the Japanese had a presence and an airstrip near bye.
The memorial consisted of a 0.5 Colt machine gun mounted on a stone cairn which was the spot where the Japanese beheaded the survivors. This was kept in pristine condition, the barrel being regularly polished, by the local Murats.

When you were galloping around Burma did you know at the time what happened to aircrew that were captured or was it kept away from you?

Danny42C
1st Aug 2016, 17:25
xxhttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1a/LeonardGSiffleet.jpg/170px-LeonardGSiffleet.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:LeonardGSiffleet.jpg)

Sergeant Siffleet's execution at Aitape, 1943

Fareastdriver (#9020),
...When I was in Borneo the local village of Sepulot in the middle of Sabah had a memorial to a Liberator crew.............This was kept in pristine condition, the barrel being regularly polished, by the local Murats...
It is touching to read of the folk memory of gratitude which these peoples cherish for the Allied aircrew who were trying to free them from Japanese brutalities in WWII.
...When you were galloping around Burma did you know at the time what happened to aircrew that were captured or was it kept away from you?...
No, it was well known that execution was probably to be our fate if we fell into Japanese hands. There was at the time, a famous photograph of a RAF Sgt-Pilot in Burma, patiently kneeling blindfolded, while a Japanese officer "addressed" his target with his sword, much as a golfer "addresses" the ball before the swing.

Above is a pic, filched from Wiki, of a similar incident in Borneo, but it is not the same one. The question was: how did these photographs, obviously taken by the Japanese, come into our possession during the war. They must have been planted as propaganda in some way.

Danny.

Wander00
1st Aug 2016, 18:19
A friend of my parents had been captured at Singapore and was forced to work on the Burma Railway. Fred treated me like an additional son, never complained but was never in good health. Although I had no personal experience I have as much difficulty with the Japanese treatment of prisoners as I do with the the Holocaust, and I cannot accept that the populations of both countries did not know what was being done in their name. On both issues I find "forgiveness" very difficult.

Stanwell
1st Aug 2016, 18:55
Fortunately, I wasn't around at that time but my father definitely was.
He was an infantry medic during the SWPA campaign and, to his dying day, for numerous reasons, he never forgave the Japs.

He did tell me that, if one had been selected for beheading, one should have considered it a privilege.
Lesser mortals were used for bayonet practice.

At subsequent War Crimes trials, one of the most common defences offered was "military necessity".
Probably as a consequence of some of the things he told me, during my business dealings with the Japanese, I decline to bow before their menfolk.


p.s. Sergeant Siffleet, pictured above, was an Australian special operative and 'coastwatcher' who'd been operating behind enemy lines in the Aitape
area on the north coast of New Guinea.
That photo was found on the body of a Japanese officer in 1944.
.

MPN11
1st Aug 2016, 19:19
As with others here, my mother would never forgive the Japanese for what they did, even though no family member was involved.

They're just weird.


(Sorry, last sentence due to be deleted by Mods, but that's my belief. They are just SO different.)

Chugalug2
1st Aug 2016, 21:32
My father died as a POW in Japan within four months of its defeat. I have read enough to imagine his suffering but do not know the specifics. I once met some survivors of the same camp as his. They were polite but would not talk about their experience.

On the more general front the Japanese nation, in the guise of its governments or its emperors, has never shown contrition or remorse for the conduct of its troops in the 1930s/40s towards POWs or civilian populations in the occupied countries, though it has uniquely apologised to South Korea I believe.

British ex-POWs turned their backs on the Japanese Emperor, and hence their own Monarch, during a State Visit to London. One can only imagine the strength of feeling that imbued those old soldiers to do that.

Weird? Hardly begins to describe them in my view.

Fareastdriver
2nd Aug 2016, 08:08
The Chinese haven't forgotten either. Every time that there is a spat between the Chinese and Japanese governments Chinese TV rolls out the footage of the Nanking Massacre. There is no shortage of photographic records; almost all taken by the Japanese themselves, so if you want to be sickened, Google it.

One Japanese newspaper, the equivalent of a UK tabloid rag, kept it's readers up-to-date with a competition between two Japanese army officers as to who was leading in a competition to see who was beheading the most Chinese.

They were both past a century.

FantomZorbin
2nd Aug 2016, 08:33
Wander00
In my humble opinion (Danny's not keen on acronyms!) I believe that if you have never been in the shoes of a victim of such atrocities it is not your position to forgive but it is your duty to never, ever forget.

Danny42C
2nd Aug 2016, 10:06
FantomZorbin,
...(Danny's not keen on acronyms)....
"What do you feed 'em on ?" (from well loved "Fools 'n Horses"). Seriously, whatever gave you that idea ? Danny positively revels in them (and "Apocryphal" is another of his favourites - but he cannot abide "Incredibly", used as an all-purpose superlative).

Snag is, either he's forgotten what they stand for, or he can't think of the one he wants, gets annoyed, bad for his blood pressure !

On the matter before the Court: only those who suffered, or their loved ones did, at the hands of the Japanese, are entitled to forgive. The rest of us must look back in horror at what was done in those years, and never forget. For those who forget their history are condemned to repeat it.

On our part, we could not but admire the fanatical courage and tenacity of the Japanese infantry. They fought till they died - and regarded anyone of any race who did not as a sub-human coward, fully meriting the barbarous treatment they meted out to him. This goes some way to explaining - but not excusing - their actions.

Yet to what extent should we "visit on the sons the sins of the fathers ?"....After all: "The past is another country, they do things differently there". Is Germany now the country of Auschwitz or the country of Goethe and Schiller ?

On yet another front, Danny has finally despaired of trying to get "Pocketmags" to take his good money in exchange for a digital "Fly Past". Daughter (who runs very good Mitsuibishi "Lancer") went round to local newsagent yesterday, should be in tomorrow, will read, learn and inwardly digest - then deliver judgment in due course.

Danny.

Fantome
2nd Aug 2016, 10:14
only those who suffered, or their loved ones did, at the hands of the Japanese, are entitled to forgive. The rest of us must look back in horror at what was done in those years, and never forget. For those who forget their history are condemned to repeat it.


an exceedingly difficult task to reconcile today. It is certainly idle and presumptuous in this context, to talk about forgiveness being accorded by someone not a victim of atrocities . It is wrong to ascribe any reaction or sentiment to circumstances however macabre in a way that implies the grief is being borne by proxy. In other words, and more broadly, never presume to believe you are 'entitled' to a judgemental viewpoint simply because you are appalled, or conversely over-joyed. Neutrality does not necessarily translate into indifference. Our world is full enough of people mouthing off every day as though their opinions are valid, well-founded and worthy of close attention. Pigs-arse. (I am probably just as guilty , considering the drift of this post.)

FantomZorbin
2nd Aug 2016, 10:34
Danny
I grovel in mortification ... is it the dreaded 'Smilies' that irk you?


For those who forget their history are condemned to repeat it Oh so very true, if only those who inhabit Whitehall would remember it.

ian16th
2nd Aug 2016, 11:24
I had a Dutch neighbour here in SA, as a boy he spent WWII in a Japanese internment camp. His father was in the Dutch Colonial Service in the then Dutch East Indies. As an officer in the Colonial Service he also had a commission in the Army Reserve.

The family was captured and because he was in army uniform, the father went to a POW Camp, the mother and my neighbour to be went into an Interment camp.

The father died soon after VJ Day, but the mother survived to almost 100.

I never understood why my neighbour drove a Nissan.

Danny42C
2nd Aug 2016, 11:32
Fantome (#2029).
...Our world is full enough of people mouthing off every day as though their opinions are valid, well-foundered and worthy of close attention...
Just like this Thread ! (My opinions are very well "foundered", indeed).
...I grovel in mortification ... is it the dreaded 'Smilies' that irk you?...
Wot Smilies ? (No grovelling allowed here - except by me).

Danny.

EDIT:
...It is certainly idle and presumptuous in this context, to talk about forgiveness being accorded by someone not a victim of atrocities..
Recalls a past Prime Minister of this country, who famously apologised for the British part in the Slave Trade (which was ended by law in 1807 - three or four generations before his time !) You cannot judge the past by the standards of the present.
D.

Fareastdriver
2nd Aug 2016, 11:50
I think the biggest problem with Japan is that they have never apologised for their soldiers actions. Germany did inasmuch they accepted the wrongs of the Holocaust and the Swastika is a prohibited symbol.

Chinese womenhood had a bad time in the 20th Century what with the end of the Q'ing Dynasty and numerous civil wars and invasion by Japan. It continued during the post war civil strife and one thing that the women's branch of the Communist Party demanded was that rape be written into the Constitution as a capital offence.

It still is.

pettinger93
2nd Aug 2016, 12:59
My father, who served with the Chindits and gurkas in Burma against the Japanese, would never afterwards deal with them in business. His later job took him all over the world, and he happily dealt with Germans, Italians etc, as friends but would never travel to Japan, or talk to them, sending colleagues to meet them if need be. He lost several friends in the jungle, so its very understandable.

Danny42C
2nd Aug 2016, 13:00
Fareastdriver,

Trouble is, in the words of a learned Judge long ago: "It is an accusation easy to be made, but hard to be proved, and harder still to defend, be one ever so innocent".

Danny.

Wander00
2nd Aug 2016, 16:06
FZ - I never will.


At the going down of the sun, and in the morning
We WILL remember them

Fantome
2nd Aug 2016, 17:34
Danny #9032

My opinions are very well "foundered"

Think you missed your vocation mate . . .what a proof-reader you might have been. You'd have had no trouble sorting out all the labels on all the rum bottles. Incidentally in Tasmania today you still hear occasionally "It's a rum do" . . or… "Jeese cobber. . . . he's a rum 'un.". Digressing further, Australian white-fella history as once taught, used to cover the so-called Rum Corps. Because in the early days of the colony (say 1788 to 1820) there was rum aplenty and little in the way of coin of the realm, the payment in rum for goods and services was common practice. So the NSW Corps quickly became known as the Rum Corps.

That shocking photo you posted of the Jap with the raised sword and his victim, the bravest of brave coast watcher, would be for many people quite obscene. It is disturbing enough to know that these atrocities occurred without graphic depiction. Is not the subject at root, mans' inhumanity to man, with many sub-headings such as crime and punishment?

Fantome
2nd Aug 2016, 17:41
From the Australian War Memorial records -

CHERRY, Percy Herbert

Enlisted: 15 March 1915, Franklin, Tasmania
Last Rank: Captain
Last Unit: 26th Infantry Battalion
Born: Drysdale, Victoria, 4 June 1895
Home Town: Cradoc, Huon Valley, Tasmania
Schooling: Cradoc Public School
Occupation: Orchardist
Died: Killed in Action, Lagnicourt, France, 27 March 1917, aged 21 years
Cemetery: Queant Road Cemetery, Buissy
Plot VIII, Row C, Grave 10
Memorials: Australian War Memorial, Roll of Honour
Awarded Victoria Cross


Last week at Pozieres in France a ceremony was held in remembrance of Australians who fell
in one of the most bloody battles in history. It was indeed moving to read about Captain Cherry
and grand- niece who was there last week.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/liz-sings-in-honour-of-vc-hero-greatgreat-uncle/news-story/341a327ba7f5e870f819df6e767eac1b

Fareastdriver
2nd Aug 2016, 18:30
Coastwatchers played a significant part in the Battle of Guadalcanal. After the naval battles the Japanese tried to bomb the Americans into submission. The defending Hellcats, were no match for the escort Zeros unless they had a height advantage. The coastwatchers, predominately Kiwis, used to observe from the western Solomon Islands and pass on the information about the attacking aircraft. This gave the Hellcats time to take off and climb so that could dive and build up inertia to get through the Zero escort.

They used to be there on their own, totally reliant on the locals for food and also trust that they wouldn't let the Japs know where they were.

ian16th
2nd Aug 2016, 19:06
Danny

A question that is asked because of your combination of WWII experience and current abode.

When in India/Burma did you ever come across the battalion of the Green Howards that was out there?

If so, have you since met up with any?

Stanwell
2nd Aug 2016, 19:20
Yes, Fareastdriver.
Sergeant Siffleet and his small team were betrayed by a local tribe who thought that they knew on which side their bread was buttered.
I understand that other local clans soon sorted them out 'New Guinea Style'.

CoodaShooda
2nd Aug 2016, 21:12
T'was not only the local natives that the Coastwatchers had to be concerned with.

At one point, our esteemed Australian Broadcasting Commission's radio news reported on a Japanese raid being successfully intercepted following information received from "a coastwatcher on Bougainville".

Sadly, the censors did not pick it up before broadcast and the next (and last) transmission from the poor chap was that the Japs were hunting him with dogs.

Danny42C
2nd Aug 2016, 21:22
ian16th (#9040)
...When in India/Burma did you ever come across the battalion of the Green Howards that was out there?...W
Sorry, but no. Our strips were always 40-50 miles back from the fighting, so we never came into contact.

When I was at Thornaby, my Tech/Radar was Flt Lt Bob Schroder. He had the Adj's OMQ at the Green Howards Territorial Battalion Drill Hall in Middlesbrough (their Adj was single and lived in the Mess). We only met them at Mess Balls and the like.

Danny.

sycamore
3rd Aug 2016, 11:23
C-S,bit like that twit of a Defence Sec. blabbing on TV as to why the Argy bombs didn`t explode..

Danny42C
3rd Aug 2016, 15:07
CoodaShooda (#9042),
...T'was not only the local natives that the Coastwatchers had to be concerned with...,our esteemed Australian Broadcasting Commission's radio news reported on a Japanese raid being successfully intercepted following information received from "a coastwatcher on Bougainville" ....Sadly, the censors did not pick it up before broadcast and the next (and last) transmission from the poor chap was that the Japs were hunting him with dogs...
There was a similar incident in the First Gulf War: [Wiki] sets the stage:
...Iraq; this was the first of two attacks by 1 Battalion 5th Cavalry of the 1st Cavalry Division. It was a feint attack, designed to make the Iraqis think that a Coalition invasion would take place from the south. The Iraqis fiercely resisted, and the Americans eventually withdrew as planned back into the Wadi Al-Batin................ This attack led the way for the XVIII Airborne Corps to sweep around behind the 1st Cav and attack Iraqi forces to the west...
One of the US Radio networks inanely went on air with sufficient detail of the US build-up in the West to alert any half-witted Intelligence Officer. Luckily they did not pick it up, and the rest you know.

The loquacity of the newsdesks (for the newsreaders are mere talking heads) is only matched by their naivety. Two (?) years ago, BBC "Look North", found a human-interest item in the shape of an old Bomber Command "veteran", a three-toured Wing Commander no less, aged 86. Reporters are usually accurate about ages. Simple arithmetic shows the "veteran" to be 18 when the war ended in 1945.

This did not strike the BBC as anything odd; they (I do hope it was not "Project Propeller") bought him a ride (currently £95) from the Teesside Flying Club. It was his demeanour in the aircraft which struck me as as suspect. He would not touch the (dual) controls, but kept his hands primly folded in his lap. Invited by the nice young Instructor to "have a go", he murmered "Better not". Well, I ask you ?

I subsequently exchanged PMs with a member who has access to the 1945 Air Force List. No trace.

Of course this willingness to take things at face value can be exploited. I still chuckle over a succesful hoax planted on the local radio station at San Franciso (or was it Los Angeles ?) some years ago. A Chinese cargo jet had overshot the runway at the airport, no casualties, not much damage. A minute or two before the evening news was due to go out, the newsdesk got a call from a member of the public: would they like the names of the crew ? News was scarce, yes they would. They copied it down without realising, flagged "breaking news", I suppose, and passed it through. It read:

Pilot 1: Sum Ting Wong

Pilot 2: Wee Tu Hi

Pilot 3: Ho Lee Kow

Pilot 4: Bang Dong Ow

The luckless girl on the mike read it out in all innocence.

(San Fran/LA was convulsed for hours, the station had to issue a retraction).

Danny.

Stanwell
3rd Aug 2016, 23:30
Excellent post, Danny.
I, too, have been watching the trend where the 'consumers' really want to believe anything they're told.
We used to think it was a joke when someone said .. 'It must be true - I read it in the newspaper'.
These days, they're serious - even Wikipedia, fer gawsake. If it was published in the gossip column of the 'Grong-Grong Poultry Farmers Gazette', it can be
cited as a reliable source.

Some might have heard of the 'Cargo Cult' amongst many of the tribesmen in New Guinea.
That is, any aeroplane (balus) seen flying in the sky, if it could be brought to ground, would deliver unlimited wealth and happiness to all.
Kinda like what you were talking about, above.

I'm also shamed to admit that I have a friend (not himself an aviator, I hasten to add) who becomes an authority on air-crash investigations - because ..
he'd watched it on television.
Oh dear.

Hempy
4th Aug 2016, 07:15
AmclgO6w0C0

Chugalug2
4th Aug 2016, 07:50
Media, that is the form in which information is published, has always been beguiling in its own right. That was certainly the case when computerised loadsheets appeared on the scene. Prior to that the hand written ones had scope for corrections so that "all work must be shown". Hence one could spot a problem offering by its many amendments and thus peruse it with ever greater care.

All that was changed by the "believe me, just see how beautifully tabulated is my printout" replacement that only showed AL5 or whatever. You believed it at your peril, and it was important to quickly grasp the GIGO concept (garbage in equals garbage out). The blunders still abounded, it was that they were less obvious and hence the more deadly.

Caveat Emptor!

Archimedes
4th Aug 2016, 09:33
One of the US Radio networks inanely went on air with sufficient detail of the US build-up in the West to alert any half-witted Intelligence Officer. Luckily they did not pick it up, and the rest you know.

As an aside, an Iraqi officer of my acquaintance (from an ACSC some years ago; he flew Mig-21s/F-7s during the 1991 war) said he was told that there were so many talking heads pontificating on what the coalition was going to do that the deluge of information made the western media a rather less useful source than might have been hoped.

Saddam wasn't quite able to compute that George HW Bush didn't have the sort of control that the Iraqis did over their media and thus assumed that information that was value must have been planted as a deception measure and could be ignored. This then changed to a view that the real information must be out there somewhere, but thanks to a mixture of good luck, the actual deception plan and a failure by Iraqi intelligence to guess which media report was correct, the leak did no damage - except, if I remember General de la Billiere's book correctly, to the career of the officer who blabbed to the press.

Danny42C
4th Aug 2016, 10:21
Hempy,

Thanks for the clip (I howled with laughter !) But must say that my "not much damage" is rather wide of the mark !

Danny.

Danny42C
4th Aug 2016, 12:22
We all readily believe what we want to believe, and con-merchants the world over take full advantage of the fact. We know that "if it sounds too good to be true", it isn't true - but we still subscribe after reading the glowing prospectus, or buy the useless "snake-oil". Fact is, we've not evolved into Homo Sapiens yet !

The problem must be compounded when the double-bluff of military counter-Intelligence is concerned. We seem to be particularly good at it - we had convinced, with spurious radio transmissions, General Galtieri and his merry men that there were two hunter-killer atomic submarines on the loose in the area. So when the Belgrano was torpedoed, the carrier Veinticinco de Mayo put about and fled back to port for fear of the mythical second one.

And I underdstand that German Intelligence was succesfully bamboozled, with lots of rubber inflatable tanks, guns and other armour, and fake radio traffic, into believing that the 1944 invasion was coming across the pas de Calais, and not to Normandy, in spite of all indications to the contrary.

The vaunted "West Wall" had not been fully completed to the West (in part due to a huge civil engineering effort having to be diverted to repair damage to the Dams in 1943), so the invasion force established itself ashore. The bulk of the Panzers were in the Calais area: it has been estimated it would need 70 trains a day over the French railway system to get them across to Normandy in time and in sufficient numbers to throw us back into the sea.

But Bomber Command had been diverted for several weeks (in spite of Harris's furious protestations) to "interdict" the railways of Northern France. They managed only six trains per day on the day. Again, we know the rest.

(All this was the popular belief at the time, I have not tried to verify it).

Danny.

Danny42C
4th Aug 2016, 21:55
pulse1 (#305),
...there was still some vestiges of the 'old order' when I spent time there in the 1980s...

In 1979 I spent a month in Chennai (it was Madras at the time) commissioning a factory. The security guard at the door was dressed in a pseudo Indian Army uniform and gave me and my UK team a cracking salute every morning...
He would be a "chowkidar" (watchman, guard) Might very well have been a soldier. If an old soldier, might remember times when all Sahibs were saluted when addressed.

Danny.

Danny42C
4th Aug 2016, 22:05
Danny has got his copy of "Fly Past" at last, and is going to work on it.

Taster: Top Left on p.28 the lad himself appears, he is the gormless looking one about to be decapitated by the blade. To his right is Reg Duncan (RCAF), look out for his dog "Spunky" peeping out on his right.

Much more later.

Danny.

Brian 48nav
5th Aug 2016, 12:38
I bought FlyPast for the first time in years, principally to read the VV article and hopefully to see if you were mentioned.

What a bonus, there you are! I imagine the photograph must have brought back many memories for you, happy ones I hope!

I scanned the photo with a magnifying glass to see if a young "Jolly" Jack Huntington was there, not with much hope as you have said in a previous post that you could not recall the name. The closest resemblance is the young man kneeling at extreme left of the front row. Chugalug knew Jack too in his Hercules days and also I guess on the Hastings, I wonder if he has had a dekko at the photo?

According to the author of 'Flat out', the 30 Sqn history, Jack served on the Arakan front and flew both VVs and Spitfires. As I recalled once before, he showed me a photo of himself ' As a handsome young bastard ' ( His words ) in front IIRC of a Spitfire.

Danny42C
5th Aug 2016, 13:22
Brian 48nav,

Next Post will have names of five of the six pilots (not including Flt Cmdr perched on top) standing on wing. Cannot put a name to the one far left. If he not your man, then might have been on "B" Flight - or not on photo for some reason - "Huntington" still rings no bells, though.

Will try a root around on BHARAT RAKSHAK (when I can !). I know they had a list of all the aircrew on 8 Squadron, you could pick out the influx of chaps posted in from the RAF Sqdns as they all come in around the same time (Nov, '43).

"Jagan" might help if he is on line and on frequency.

Danny.

Brian 48nav
5th Aug 2016, 16:22
On my bookshelves I have 'The Flying Camels', a history of 45 Sqn - it has 26 pages of their time with VVs. It's quite a weighty tome with 536 pages altogether!

No mention of Jack Huntington in that or the 84 Sqn history that I have - I guess that just leaves 82 Sqn or the 2 IAF Sqns.

Chugalug2
5th Aug 2016, 16:35
B48N and Danny, I'm afraid I haven't seen the pic as I do not have the FlyPast mag. I'll certainly try to locate a copy, but doubt if I'll be any more able than Brian to identify "young man kneeling, front row, extreme left". Such was the format of the orders of O i/c riot squad to the men with one up the spout when all else had failed, including unfurling the banner saying in the appropriate language(s), "Disperse, or we fire", and the high speed reading of the riot act by a local magistrate. But I digress...

Having attended various 50th anniversary reunions I can only say that in my experience men's features in particular change considerably, to the extent that I have had to apologise to some and asked if they might identify themselves. Their demeanour though does not. The terribly intense ones still are, as are the laid back ones. Would you say that you are easily recognisable still in the picture, Danny?

I think we've been round this block before, haven't we Brian? I certainly knew that as a young man Jack had flown Spits in Burma, but it was (and still is) news to me that he had flown the Vengeance. If he had mentioned the one you'd have thought he would have mentioned the other, particularly as it was an RAF steed used operationally only in that theatre. Might be worth checking back with the author of Flat Out as to how that info was come by...

Oh, and yes, I certainly knew Jack on the Hastings! I was one of his many apprentices, clambering aboard 4 or 5 at a time carrying a pie and a coke for him if on the lunch time crew change outside the 48 Sqn HQ for the afternoon shift of CPT. He of course stayed aboard all day.They broke the mould...

Danny42C
5th Aug 2016, 18:07
Chugalug (#9057),
... Would you say that you are easily recognisable still in the picture, Danny?...
Most certainly not ! (pitiful, bald, skeletal shadow of former self).

The pic in question must be from 110's ORB. In my logbook I have a copy about 2/3 size. Would willingly scan and paste on Post if only I could. Perhaps one of our experts could do that for the army of "Pilot's Brevet" fans - but do not know what the copyright position is. (May well be Crown Copyright if from F.540, as we surmise).

If your local newsagents prove broken reeds (make sure you order the SEPTEMBER number), "pocketmags" have/had a digital copy to read on laptop @ £3.99. If you try them, the Best of British Luck to you !

Danny.

MPN11
5th Aug 2016, 19:28
Oh, borrocks to copyright [within limits]. This is THE Thread, it's HISTORY, ... "The Public should be told", etc. etc.

Walter603
6th Aug 2016, 04:35
Winter was extremely cold. We were able to exist on our food parcels, sometimes reduced to one parcel each week between two men, and occasional stolen vegetables which we filched from railway wagons broken open when we could get away from the watchful guards. Life was made bearable by the news, frequently received, of the big advances by the Allies in France and by the Russians on the eastern front. We took great delight in jeering at the Germans, guards included, and telling them that they would soon be conquered by our forces.

The calls for "einsatz" became more frequent. Always in the early hours of the morning we were called out to go to the railway marshalling yards of distant cities and towns, there to fill in gaping craters and bomb holes made by our air forces on the previous day or night, and to repair the rail lines. Meantime we carried on our task of building a new railway line on the outskirts of Falkenberg. Later, we were engaged in "coaling-up" railway wagons and engines for the German war machine.

Gradually the war came closer, and we were filled with hope that we would not long remain enforced guests of the Germans. We received frequent news by way of radio (usually given to us by Frenchmen) and from leaflets dropped by our own air forces during bombing missions. In between our work, carried out in shifts throughout the 24 hours, we frequently had to take shelter in nearby woods. On one such occasion, having dug bolt-holes in which to shelter, we suffered the effects of a massive American raid on Falkenberg rail yards. There were about 125 aircraft involved, and the sight and sounds of the hundreds of bombs whistling down, followed by explosions of earthquake proportions, was among the worst minutes of my life.

An hour after the bombers departed, fighter planes arrived to strafe the goods yards, but when we judged it safe to do so, we went into the area to look for food among the railway trucks. Many others had the same idea, and we were mixed up with prisoners of various nationalities and with German civilians. We helped ourselves to a wooden crate of 20 dozen eggs and several large tins of meat.

George, Fred and I stayed hiding in our bolt-hole in the woods when it came time to be escorted back to our barracks, and we were finally on the run once more. We picked up three companions. One was a Yank soldier not known to us before, and another was "Flash" Gordon, a South African who had been in our working camp. When darkness fell we slept the first night among bales of straw in a large barn. Fires were burning in the two goods yards, and everywhere was the stillness of desolation.

At 6a.m. we left the barn and returned to the woods. We had an icy wash under a pump at a farm nearby, and then took a walk to the farther end of the goods yard. 'Planes had returned to circle around the bombed railway, and bombing was in progress not very far off. We successfully passed Kolsa and Rehfeld, and were nearly rounded up when we were discovered by a guard making tea at a deserted house in the woods. However, we got away with it by pretending we were on our way back to our barracks.

We trekked past Rehfeld and went about 2 kms along the railway towards Beilrode. By this time, it had been raining hard for an hour and we were all soaked, especially the Yank who had no greatcoat. Everywhere there was an uncanny silence and we were afraid we should stumble any moment on gun positions or infantry. The rumble of artillery could be heard in the distance. Our friend Fred Grinham surprised me by deciding to go ahead at a faster rate than George could manage, he having twisted his ankle some way back. Pressing on with the Yank and another soldier, Fred quickly disappeared in the distance.

We forced the door of a workers small railway hut and decided to stay the night, as it contained a stove, fuel and a table. George, who had been brooding for a long time, suddenly got to his feet and announced that he was going back. I believe he expected to walk right over to our lines in the first afternoon. He was probably thinking too, of the motherly old ladies he had been comforting after the bombing. So we saw George off, now reducing our party to three.

We ate, made and drank tea, and prepared to settle down on the wooden floor at dusk. It was beautifully warm at first, but during the night I awoke cold and stiff. I was very pleased when dawn broke and we could make a move.Not far away we found evidence of a hasty move by German troops in the woods, in broken branches, tyre tracks and, lying on the ground, a new and almost complete white loaf of bread, which went into our haversack store.

We walked until we were south of Beilrode, at the edge of a wood, and looking west we could see Torgau (a large military training town in Central Germany). We met a Russian who told us that Torgau had not fallen, but our troops were 15-20 kms behind it, and also about 20 kms north of the town at a place called Dommitsch. By this time it was raining once more, so we made our way across the fields to a barn by the side of the railway, and just outside Beilrode. We were lucky. The barn contained straw and outside was a good supply of rainwater. So once again we had tea, fried eggs and meat, after much energetic blowing to keep the embers glowing. We did not have such a good night as we expected as there were large chinks in the walls of the barn and the wind found its way right through the straw to us.

Early on Monday morning we set off again, this time deciding to make for Prettin, 15-20kms north of Torgau, on the River Elbe and directly opposite Dommitsch. On the way we met crowds of refugees with oxcarts, handcarts, bicycles and packs, all on their way to the other side of the Elbe from fear of the advancing Russians (the "Red Army"). During the course of the morning we had a sudden surprise. About to leave the safety of a wooded area to cross a country road, we almost ran into the head of a column of German soldiers who were marching past. Quickly diving into a dry ditch at the side of the road, we watched as all kinds of military passed along. Apart from many marching troops, there were armoured cars, batteries of guns and transport vehicles. It seemed like the whole of the German Army was passing by only a few feet from us. Apart from the clatter of boots and the sounds of the motor vehicles there was not a sound from the men.

We were obliged to stay in our ditch for one and a half hours to watch this procession, which was probably a wholesale retreat but there was no way we could find out, nor did we want to know at that time! I was very glad that there was no water in the ditch.

Walter603
6th Aug 2016, 05:25
Hello Chugalug,
After all these years, I don't regret the action I took. I would have been better off if I had used an "escape committee" plan, but can't find evidence that those committees existed only in officer camps. Although I was condemned to working hard on the railways, It's likely that I kept in better health than I would have been in the Stalag. However, I'd hate to do it all again!
Walter.

Chugalug2
6th Aug 2016, 09:08
Walter:-
I'd hate to do it all again!

What a refreshingly honest comment! I'm always suspicious of those who had "a good war". Even if you'd had a comfortable one, it would take an enormous lack of imagination not to dwell on the prodigious waste of life and the massive destruction being suffered by friend and foe alike. Perhaps the path that you had chosen, of hard physical labour, put such thoughts to the back of your mind as you struggled with you colleagues to survive and to look for a chance to escape?

How fitting that the chance happens thanks to a bombing raid on "your railway"! Looking up Falkenberg on Google maps, we find you just west of the north/south line joining Dresden and Berlin and about one third the way up it. If the priority had not been given for the Red Army to take Berlin then the US Army might have already arrived. But Eisenhower is advancing slower and on a broad front, so the mountain must go to Muḥammad .

Already there is a suspicion that the German State is collapsing. You join in with civilians and other prisoners the looting of a bombed train, you persuade a guard that you stumble into that you are going back to your camp and he obligingly takes your word for it and lets you proceed. The end is near, but danger looms as ever. Stay safe, Walter, stay safe!

Stanwell
6th Aug 2016, 10:46
Is this thread not outstanding?
Thank you, MPN, for your observations and, Walter, I sit back in my chair somewhat awestruck, each time I read one of your posts.

I once had a work colleague who had served with the Waffen SS.
He was a Czech who had been conscripted and found himself on the Eastern Front.
One freezing day, which had not gone too well, he'd taken shelter in a railway hut.
He's sitting there, taking stock of things, when in walked this huge Russian soldier - a woman.
Not only that, but she was equipped with a burp-gun and didn't look too happy.
Oh, dear.

Well, as it turned out, she was in much the same position as him.
But .. he, somehow, had managed to get hold of some bread and she had found a bottle of wine.
They sat together for about an hour, without a common language, and, after that, took their leave of each other and
left that shelter, wishing one another "bon chance".
That's true, as he told it to me - and I had no reason to think he was a bullsitter.
.

Danny42C
6th Aug 2016, 11:21
Walter (#9061),
... Although I was condemned to working hard on the railways, It's likely that I kept in better health than I would have been in the Stalag. However, I'd hate to do it all again...
I have read that the population of Britain were in better general health in the wartime years of rationing and privation than ever they have been since (in particular, obesity was very rare !)

You have the gifted raconteur's art of always leaving your listeners wanting to hear "further and better particulars". Now I'm all agog to know - Did the Germans manage to recapture you and if so were you on the "Long March" ? Or did you reach Allied (which ones ?) troops - or did they find you first ? (Must be patient, I suppose !)

Chugalug (#9062),
...I'd hate to do it all again!
What a refreshingly honest comment! I'm always suspicious of those who had "a good war". Even if you'd had a comfortable one, it would take an enormous lack of imagination not to dwell on the prodigious waste of life and the massive destruction being suffered by friend and foe alike...
Peccavi (I have sinned !) Although you could rightly describe my war as a "comfortable" one, and it was certainly a safe one ("the greatest danger on our 'ops' was of spraining your ankle, jumping down from the wing when you got back", we said). But then, although sympathising with the less fortunate, and the relatives of the dead, I'm sorry to say that we put them out of mind, and got on with whatever war we'd been given. It was a case of "Much as my heart bleeds for you, * Jack, I am in the dinghy" (note *: this is sometimes expressed differently).

Mea Maxima Culpa ! - ♫ Lord, have mercy on such as we ♫

Cheers, both,

Danny.

PS: I've done my Penance already last night. Laboured for an hour on Notepad, putting names and other details to the pic on "Fly Past", polished it all up, nothing to do now but copy 'n paste onto PPRuNepad, eyesight not too good and very tired, did something, beastly gremlin struck, all vanished. Panic - so instead of hitting Ctrl+Z, tried to fix myself, no joy. Went to bed. :{

All to do again now.
D.

Chugalug2
6th Aug 2016, 13:04
Danny, as has been so rightly said before on this thread any fool can be uncomfortable. You have told us of your own efforts to ameliorate the discomforts of campaigning, i.e. your patent air transportable charpoy. It was no intention of mine to suggest that war should be uncomfortable for the sake of it, quite the opposite. My gripe is with those who describe someone as having "a good war". Presumably they are implying promotion, perhaps awards, or being involved in successful operations. All very admirable, but if that is all summed up as good, it rather ignores the suffering of others.
I guess my real objection though is that any war, whether from a personal or general perspective, can be described as "good". In my book there are no good wars, just wars.

Sorry to here about the PPRuNe gremlin striking. His favourite time for striking is late at night. You are a stalwart though, and I'm sure will start all over in order that this thread will be the better informed. For such dedication we are forever grateful!

Stanwell
6th Aug 2016, 13:28
You got me chuckling with your Church Latin, there, Danny.
If I may be so bold, it's 'mea MAXIMA (say it loudly) culpa' when kneeling before the Bishop.

We have stuff happening re the RAAF 'Wedgie' Eagle and the colour of our uniform.
I've queried everybody from AC2s to Wing Commanders and there's a beautiful lady from the RAAF Museum who's now on the case.
Stay tuned.
.

Danny42C
6th Aug 2016, 14:22
Back to work...

Bear in mind:

The pic was taken in Madhaiganj, not Digri, in the first days of January, 1943. I'd joined just a few days before.

Not all the Flight aircrew are there.

All aircrew named are Sergeants, except where otherwise stated.

There are only two officers there - look for the caps.

Names and wings are L to R (looking at pic).

All pilots are standing on wings. All navs and AGs are sitting on wings. Standing on wheels are two ground NCOs.

Erks standing and sitting below. Many faces familiar; names familiar - but cannot put together. Sartorially mixed bag. Have not been out long, as not chucked "Bombay Bowlers" away yet
..........


On top of cowling is F/O R.C.Topley ("Topper") Flt Commander. His acting Flt Lt has not come through yet, signs as F/O in my log until end of May. Draped on prop boss is "Chiefy" - F/Sgt Darling.

Standing (L to R) Sgt "?", think (RAAF); Reg Duncan (RCAF); Self; across to W/O Doug McIlroy (RNZAF); George Davies (RAF); Bud Yates (Yeats ? RCAF).

Sitting Sgt ("?"); P/O Robertson (nav - not the one who nearly lost entire Flight en route Chittagong !), flew with me on first three (Akyab) ops in May; Duncan's dog "Spunky" *; another Sgt ("?"); across to hunched figure: Keith Stewart-Mobsby (we'd not "crewed-up" yet). Why was he not with me in May ? Dunno, malaria perhaps ?

Then three more ("?")s. Together with first two ("?")s, perm from Payne, Mills, Turner, Brown, Lewis, and Foster.

Two NCOs standing on wheels, Cpl/(Sgt) "?; Cpl Reavill. (one would have been a Fitter (1), t'other a Rigger (1).

Sad note *: "Spunky" got extensive and incurable (Doc Pete Latcham did his best) skin infection, fur coming off in lumps, animal was suffering, in March poor Reg had to take his pistol and do the last act of kindness to his (and the whole Squadron's) friend. Everybody broken-hearted.

More next time, must be careful now ! Avaunt, Gremlin ! :ok:

Danny.

Danny42C
6th Aug 2016, 14:52
Chugalug (#9065),

"Having a good war" had a particular meaning (and in my experience it was never used in any other sense). It meant that the chap in question had come home more or less in one piece, and had served with distinction, with (usually) a gong or two.

As in: "Denis Healey was a lousy Chancellor of the Exchequer - but he'd had a good war ..... Major, Beach Master at Anzio, don'cher know......"

Danny.

Danny42C
6th Aug 2016, 15:51
Stanwell (#9066),
...it's 'mea MAXIMA (say it loudly) culpa' when kneeling before the Bishop...
Never knelt before any Bishop (except on my Confirmation). Altar Boys said " Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa. Mea Maxima Culpa" out loud, it was usually about the only Latin in the Confiteor they could remember apart from "Confiteor Dei" to kick-off with. The rest was muttered gobblygook.
...the colour of our uniform...
LEAVE IT ALONE ! The rich, dark Royal Blue made a nice change; the girls loved it; Aussies are sui generis, anyway - and you didn't have to polish any buttons ! The loyal New Zealanders, however, (of all the Dominion peoples, the closest resemblence to us: often mistaken for Britons), whereas no one could mistake an Aussie for anything else, stayed with our RAF Blues, and polished their buttons like us.
...and there's a beautiful lady from the RAAF Museum who's now on the case....
Not the Camden Museum one ? Made strenuous attempts to contact, without success, to sort out the identity of EZ999. But other PPRuners have managed to get in touch, report a charming and helpful lady - but from what I heard, not quite up to speed on the exhibits (could've been just me).

Danny.

Chugalug2
6th Aug 2016, 16:14
Danny, all of what you say is how I understood the term to be used as well. In other words it is a judgement made by others of someone's war record. Did Denis Healey though ever admit to having a "Good War" I wonder? I doubt if he ever did, if only out of modesty.

I suspect that many who were said to have had a good war would have not felt that way themselves. Whatever their personal performance, whatever the recognition of that, whatever their lack of physical injury, what they had witnessed and the friends they had lost, all would have made the epitaph "a good war" nonsensical.

Consider Jack Hawkins's Captain Ericson in the Cruel Sea. He does his duty and depth-charges a U-Boat at the point of Instantaneous Echo. The trouble is there are survivors in the sea right there from the U-boat's last attack, who will now die. He is forever thereafter tortured by his action (which appears to have been unsuccessful anyway). He goes on doing his duty and no doubt would be said to have had a "Good War", but the phrase seems trite and shallow to my mind.

Is this is a generation thing (when I for a change represent the younger one ;-)? Yours got on with the job and didn't make a fuss. Four plus years of danger could be summed up as good if you ticked all the boxes in your list at the end of it all. I see the cost of it though, and have spoken to some who still carried the mental scars of it all. What you did (as a generation) was good, what that did to many of you was not.

MPN11
6th Aug 2016, 16:29
Excuse me if this sounds frivolous, but I had a 'good war' from 63-94. I missed all of the action that was going, despite offering my body to RAF PMC on several occasions.

Chugalug2
6th Aug 2016, 16:46
MPN11, The President of the Mess Committee could indeed be a formidable foe, especially after the 10th of the month if one had omitted paying his Dane Geld. If that happened to you on several occasions and you survived to tell the tale, then I for one am prepared to acknowledge your Good War! :ok:

Union Jack
6th Aug 2016, 17:04
I missed all of the action that was going, despite offering my body to RAF PMC on several occasions. - MPN11

I assume that someone of MPN11's erudition is familiar with the word "ambiguous"....:uhoh:

Jack

pulse1
6th Aug 2016, 17:25
My gliding instructor as an ATC cadet, a RN Lt Cmdr, claimed to have had a good war, so much so, that he had a picture of Hitler above his bed. He said that he felt that he should recognise him in some way as he wouldn't be where he was today without him. He was a strange man who drove a huge Daimler which had belonged to Sir Bernard Docker.

Danny42C
6th Aug 2016, 18:47
Chugalug (#9070),
...it is a judgement made by others of someone's war record. Did Denis Healey though ever admit to having a "Good War" I wonder? I doubt if he ever did, if only out of modesty...
No, it was only spoken of you by others.

Our general attitude was summed-up by a brother-in-law, also in RAF, two years younger than I, but now, sadly in last stages of Alzheimers:
"War is a terrible thing - but I wouldn't have missed it for the world !"
But I suspect that (for example) an ex-prisoner of the Japanese (or, like Walter, of the Germans) might well feel very differently !

As you say, it's a generational thing. It comes down to the old Jesuit quandary - is it lawful to do evil that good may come of it ? In Captain Erikson's case, he must consider all the other seamen who may die if he allows the U-boat to run free. It was Truman's quandary when he had to authorise the atomic bomb on Hiroshima. Does he sentence a million Japanese, most of them non-combatants, to a painful death to avoid the death of several times that number, which was the sober estimate of the cost of a seaborne invasion of Japan ?

In each case, the right (dreadful) decision was made with a heavy heart. In war, there are usually no "good" answers - you just have to try to choose the least bad one. Do your best - and then try to forget it.

Danny.

Danny42C
6th Aug 2016, 19:01
MPN11 (#9071),

I thought failure to pay your Mess Bill put you in front of the Station Commander ! Issuing a dud cheque to a tradesman was a Court Martial offence - hence the sage advice: if you must bounce a cheque, bounce it on the Bank !

As to your relations with your PMC, the mind boggles. Was it in the course of the silly games we played on Mess Guest nights ?

Danny.

Chugalug2
6th Aug 2016, 19:19
Sage words Danny, as ever. Your brother in law sums it up beautifully (or did rather, it isn't only war that is terrible...).

As to MPN's PMC, I doubt it has anything to do with the Officer's Mess or Cheques, but I am only guessing. The real frontier these days between Service generations is the acronym. They change with ever increasing frequency.

plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose Not necessarily!

Wander00
6th Aug 2016, 20:25
As a re-entrant, and OC Accts at the last Lightning station, I had a deal with the FW Sqn cdrs. On 10th of the month I would give them a list of guys who had not paid their mess bill. they did not go on the flying programme until I rang the duty auth and "cleared" the names. Unpaid mess bills petered out, and the Staish (DC) never knew how.

pzu
6th Aug 2016, 22:04
Long story/ies, my Dad's comment on his WWII service was

"had a Good War, a) I survived and b) they made me an Officer and a Gentleman"

Not bad for a pattern makers apprentice from Burnley

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

Danny42C
6th Aug 2016, 22:51
PZU.

Could say much the same myself. 19 yr old humble 30-bob-a-week clerk starts in the RAF 1941, goes to Florida to get his (US Army Air Corps) wings, in 1942 is Spitfire trained in UK, in 1943 is dive bomber pilot in Burma and commissioned. In 1945 is in command of own unit and A/Sqn Ldr.......(Thinks: if this is Life, it's pretty good, bring it on !)

In 1946 he is out, now £5/wk glorifed clerk again..:(.... Any wonder he decides in 1948 to get back in, if he can ? Manages it in 1949, the rest you know !

Danny.

pzu
7th Aug 2016, 00:34
Danny
Dad beat you there!!! out July '46, back in end Oct '46 and then Watchfield Dec '46 to Jan '47 for ATCO raining
Out Nov'50 to Airwork at Usworth but also RAuxAF (608 Sqd) till Dec '53, then to DCA in East Africa Jan '54 - Apr'66 followed by the Colonial Gentlemans 'dream' - the Pub Trade!!!

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

MPN11
7th Aug 2016, 08:42
Good morning, gentlemen. I was indeed referring to the Royal Air Force Personnel Management Centre at innsworth, as I suspect you all knew anyway. However, the topic deviation on to "Mess Bills, prompt payment of" is, of course, typical of this Thread ... and indeed has already generated an interesting anecdote [#9078].

My only "Mess Bill Interview" was at OCTU, where my Flt Cdr called me in to his office to enquire if I had 'private means', as he was slightly concerned about the sum involved. I assured him I was not concerned, and ran up an even larger bill the following month. And thus began a long career of indebtedness, exacerbated by spending my initial Officer's Outfitting Allowance on a better car. ;)

Curiously, during many years as either Mess Secretary or PMC [the other PMC], I can't recall any instances of individuals missing the deadline of the 10th.

Danny42C
7th Aug 2016, 09:19
PZU (#9081),
...Out Nov'50 to Airwork at Usworth but also RAuxAF (608 Sqd) till Dec '53...
I was at Thornaby as Adj of 3608 Fighter Control Unit Sept '51 to Nov '54. Of course, 608 was based there (also 2608 [Regt] Squadron). So we were there at the same time !

608 (Sqn Ldrs Robinson and George Martin) let me fly their Vampires on non-Auxiliary days (Wen-Fri), and the Station Harvard and Tiger Moth Harvard anytime.

Were you, by any chance, in the Tower that claggy Sunday when John Newboult (Adj) asked me to airtest a Vampire for them, and I put up a fearful "Black" by doing a roller at MSG, having mistaken it for Thornaby ? (Thornaby was bringing me in off a QGH on the SW Safety Lane, so I was heading 040/045), couldn't see a damn thing apart from a field or two directly below, (I imagine the idea was for me to come straight in on the 04).

Anyway my track ran over MSG (six miles out), I piped up "Field in Sight, over to Local". Thornaby Local gave me joining instructions, cleared me downwind and finals (although he'd never seen me - wouldn't expect to in the murk - and I was over the piano keys at MSG (which had a 04 - 05?) before it dawned on me that "Sum Ting Wong", I hit the throttle and got the hell out of it, but only after trundling along a quarter-mile of runway.

Name mud; bollocked by Boss Martin; "Three extra (Auxiliary) weekends SDO", said Station Commander (Malcolm Sewell - nice chap) next morning. Ah, well.

You will remember F/O "Mike" Beavis (their Training Officer). Finished as ACM Sir Michael Beavis, Air Member for something or another. One day landed a Vampire as his No.2 - not everybody can say he landed as a future ACM's wingman !

Happy Days, :ok:

Danny.

Chugalug2
7th Aug 2016, 10:02
MPN11, I had actually checked Innsworth in Wiki. It has traded under many guises (indeed Wiki now sends you to the Imjin Barracks page) since the days of the RAF Record Office, but of a PMC is there none. There is though a Personnel Management Agency, is that what you meant, or was there yet a variation on the variation? Wiki merely states, with admirable understatement, that:-

Many other changes have taken place at Innsworth over recent years
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imjin_Barracks

As to Mess Bills, a friend of mine was up before the Boss, not for not paying his Mess Bill but for the size of it, most of which was his bar bill. Let's say that it was £35-6s-7d for example (which was a goodly amount then, but would hardly cover a round now, I guess).
Boss, "Your bar bill is rather excessive".
Chummy, "I'm afraid I don't agree, Sir".
Boss, "Then what would you say was a reasonable amount for a bar bill?"
Chummy, "£35-6s-7d, Sir"
Chum then ordered to get out and, like Danny, invited to look after the Station for some successive nights.

Danny42C
7th Aug 2016, 10:31
MPN11 (#9082),
...I was indeed referring to the Royal Air Force Personnel Management Centre at innsworth, as I suspect you all knew anyway...
This one didn't ! Were they up and running in 1962 ? If so have bone to pick.

Enjoyable tour in RAF(G) coming to an end. Missive from them (or somebody performing their function): what were my preferences for my UK Posting ? Recovered slowly, with anxious wife applying smelling salts.

Suspected hoax, inspected document with magnifying glass, seemed kosher. Wrote back impassioned plea: "I'll go anywhere you like, any Command - but please not a Flying Training Command Pilot Training Station !"

Of course they were "havin' a larf", weren't they ? - I got Linton-on-Ouse.

Perhaps it was their revenge for 1954, when I'd "shopped" them for having posted me (subject to a medical height restriction of 10,000 ft) for a refresher on Meteor 7s (unpressurised) up to 30,000 plus, a couple of times a day - Weston Zoyland knew nothing about the restriction).

Decided not to tell them, completed Course without difficulty - (F.414 says I am a "proficient" Meteor pilot), trotted round to CMB with (I thought) an unanswerable case for having restriction lifted.

Nice old doctor dressed as Air Commodore wouldn't play, but looked thunderous when I told him about cock-up. Hope he gave them Hell !

Danny.

MPN11
7th Aug 2016, 10:33
1. "PTC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Personnel_and_Training_Command) was formed in 1994 bringing together the responsibilities of the former RAF Personnel Management Centre and the training functions of RAF Support Command. " ... I believe it ended up as the Tri-Service PMA in Glasgow, but that was after my time. My collection of F5756 (Posting Instruction - Officers) shows RAF PMC in existence 1973: most earlier PIs are few, and sadly not kept. The oldest is dated 1969, raised by PA5b [the ATC poster's desk] but doesn't actually say what they were called then!

2. 1966 - GCA Course Mess Bill £54/12/6, Payslip £52/10/0. I still have the former somewhere here, in all it's blue carbon-copy glory, but the latter has sadly become separated and lost.

26er
7th Aug 2016, 10:41
Danny, re your experience at MSG, I arrived as a new QFI there ( 202 AFS ) in September 1952 flying Meteor F4 and T7. Neasham/Croft, some seven miles south west was a relief landing ground, the main runway of which was roughly aligned with MSG. In those days it was common practice for fighter pilots to always take off and land on the left side of the runway unless of course the aircraft in front had already used it, when it then alternated left/right. Shortly before my arrival an incident occurred when two aircraft at Neasham passed each other on the runway going in opposite directions doing "roller landings". It seems that one of them had thought it was MSG where they were using a reciprocal runway. Fortunately they had both adhered to the "land on the left" dictum. From then on it was decreed that no matter what the wind was the two airfield's active runways would always be in the same direction (24/06 ?) to reduce the risk of a calamity.

MPN11
7th Aug 2016, 10:58
Ah, found a bit more ... BBC - Gloucestershire - History - Salute to the end of an RAF era (http://www.bbc.co.uk/gloucestershire/content/articles/2008/01/23/raf_innsworth_history_feature.shtml)

The book charts the rapid development of Innsworth during the war years, the formation of the RAF Record and Pay Office, RAF Barnwood, the RAF Personnel Management Centre and the computer era, the formation of Headquarters Personnel & Training Command and the partial modernisation of the station in 1993-94.

After that came the formation of the Personnel Management Agency and the Armed Forces Pay & Administration Agency.

You may recall that Officers were managed at RAF Barnwood ... a sub-site of Innsworth, a couple of miles to the south in charming collection of black wooden huts on a small rise by the A40/A417 Ring Road.

Danny42C
7th Aug 2016, 11:20
pulse1 (#9074),

Just realised that you have said a very profound thing:
...as he wouldn't be where he was today without him...
That must be true of thousands of us of the wartime generation. Our lives were changed beyond recognition by our war service.

I was destined for a humdrum life, slowly climbing the promotion ladder of the Civil Service, till retirement at age 60, with a half pay pension. Brought up in the "hungry thirties", anyone with a regular "job for life" - and a Pension - was widely envied. There were over two million unemployed (out of a much smaller workforce than today) until the war.

My five years on "another planet" (as I like to think of it) turned my thoughts in quite another direction. The third in a line of (up to me) regular NCOs, who would not have dreamed of (or even wanted) a Commission (not for working-class lads in those days), I fear a frosty reception from my forbears when I put my nose in (only by invitation, you understand) to the Heavenly Sergeant's Mess (if there be such a thing). For I would have Let the Side Down !

And my story can be multiplied many times.

Danny.

MPN11
7th Aug 2016, 11:40
Danny42C ... so one 'benefit' from WW2 was, at least, the breaking-down of class barriers, affording greater opportunities to those who would otherwise have been excluded.

GBKayak
7th Aug 2016, 11:49
RAF Personnel and Training Command came to an end on 1 April 2007 when it collocated and merged with Strike Command at RAF High Wycombe, forming 'Air Command' ... for me, an engineer, who was running the team providing 'information services' to the station and HQ at the time I wish that a name with a little more 'meaning' had been chosen!

GB

GBKayak
7th Aug 2016, 12:00
RAF Personnel and Training Commnd came to an end on 1 April 2007 when it collocated and merged with HQ Strike Command at RAF High Wycombe, forming 'Air Command'. I was running the team providing 'information services' to the HQ and Station at the time and I wish that their 'lordships' ... or should that be 'airships' ... had chosen something a little less 'inane' and something with a little more meaning and historical value and consistent across the three armed forces who were all 'downsizing' and 'rebranding' at the time. It reminds me a little about the RN's long time criticism that they had traditions and we had 'habits' or something to that effect!

Chugalug2
7th Aug 2016, 12:05
MPN, good spot with that link. RAF Innsworth had indeed changed identity enormously throughout its life, yet its central purpose remained unchanged to the end, to enable the stretch and might of UK Airpower to be applied to its maximum worldwide. You just have to consider the stories of our WWII contributors to get a hint of what that entailed. Hundreds of thousands were distributed around the world, RAF peak strength far exceeding a million, and all to be kept check of, moving from depot to depot, to training establishments, to operational squadrons, usually via long and dangerous sea voyages. No computers then, all done by manual means. No doubt some got misplaced (on a Hollerith card that had slipped under the machine?), many were its dissatisfied customers (Danny amongst them evidently), but without it all would have been nought, and all done from the generic creosoted wooden huts that bloomed on most camps behind the resplendent mock Georgian architecture that fronted proceedings. Hopefully somebody somewhere is preserving at least some examples of those huts, together with their lino flooring brown for the buffing of, and stoves coke for the feeding of.

Danny42C
7th Aug 2016, 18:05
Chugalug (#9093),
and all to be kept check of, moving from depot to depot, to training establishments, to operational squadrons, usually via long and dangerous sea voyages. No computers then, all done by manual means...
Around the end of National Service, there was a NS Records clerk who saw how this system could be profitably be exploited.

He created (on paper) a whole platoon of non-existent NS airmen. These then had all the things happen to them that happen to normal recruits - including being paid ! Needless to say their "pay" ended up in the pocket of our ingenious rascal.

Knowing the date of his own release, he was careful to arrange that all his creations were discharged ahead of him, so that there should be no "unfinished business" when he left the RAF. Would have got away with it, too, had not a perfectly innocuous question been raised, after he left, by some hospital that had treated a patient that Never Was.

The whole thing blew open, and he did time in Durance Vile. Don't remember how long.

Another successful ploy was dreamed up by another NS airman. Posted to his final Station from training, he took care to book in on all sections - except at his workplace (so he did no work, as they were unaware of his existence). Lived the life of Riley, ate his grub, drew his pay, observed Station Routine so as not to become conspicuous. Got away with it for quite some time until somebody noticed the figures didn't add up. Then he was for he High Jump !

They don't make 'em like that any more (or do they ?)

Danny.

Chugalug2
7th Aug 2016, 18:39
Ah yes, Danny, the lovable rascals of yesteryear! There was a Hastings captain at Changi (before my time) who had an import/export business on the side twixt Christmas Island and Australia. The export from CI was for written off outboard motors in particular (I guess Nuffield Trust ones contributed by that charity for R&R purposes). Having paid someone something for them he flew them to Brisbane at the end of his detachment on the way back home. At Brisbane a Holden station wagon backed up to the aircraft on arrival and goods were exchanged for cash.

At Singapore some inkling of the goings on result in the itinerary being switched to Sydney instead of Brisbane. Little matter, for same Holden car meets arrival of same man, but this time it is noted buy authority. Result, much feeling of collar, Court Martial convened, our man gets dishonourable discharge. Where does he go for his new civilian life? Why, Australia of course, where foresight has ensured a profitable investment in property and a thus future home...

MPN11
7th Aug 2016, 19:11
In Singapore I was once asked by a visiting officer to go and buy some Oriental rugs from a particular shop, to ship home with our domestic goods (was nearly tourex), to be later collected in UK for a significant (for a Fg Off) cash sum. Somehow, despite the assurance 'he' would pay any Customs Duty, I was a complete coward.

"Too good to be true" rang in my ears, loudly.

Danny42C
7th Aug 2016, 19:34
Any objections ?

There will be a number of Posts relating to an exegesis of the seven page article about WWII Far East Vengeance operations in "Fly Past" magazine (September number). As these will be of interest only to those who have the magazine copy, I have in mind opening a Thread on that subject alone. This will collate all our inputs and may form a useful archive, instead of being scattered on this Thread (which is roaring away now, just like old days !) like plums in duff. Will leave first "taster"on this Thread.

If "nem con" after Monday 20.00 hrs, will do just that.

Danny.

Fareastdriver
7th Aug 2016, 19:44
It would save me hunting back four or five pages looking for the non-existant photograph you were talking about.

Danny42C
7th Aug 2016, 21:50
Fareastdriver,

The picture in question is top left on Page 28 of the September number of "Fly Past".

I seen to have got a hare running with my Post #9053 of 4th August on Page 453 of this Thread. My apologies for any confusion caused.

Danny.

Fantome
10th Aug 2016, 07:39
ALL the talk of what kind of a war did you have? brought to mind the title Jimmy Edwards chose for his war memoire - SIX OF THE BEST.
After six years he was out on the street without a job wondering how on earth did I get away with it?
He then went to the Windmill Theatre, I think it was, to work with the crew that staged The Mouse That Roared.

(As not everyone is likely to know, 'The Professor' was a Dakota skipper in Transport Command. )

MPN11
10th Aug 2016, 08:28
And with a well-deserved DFC ... Flt/Lt James Edwards DFC (http://www.eghf.co.uk/index.php/d-day-70th-commemoration/veteran-s-stories/251-flt-lt-james-edwards-dfc)

Wander00
10th Aug 2016, 08:45
Fantome - and a DFC to boot ISTR. He was skipper of a Dakota at Arnhem too

Wander00
10th Aug 2016, 08:46
MPN11 - "Snap"...

Danny42C
10th Aug 2016, 10:37
Wander00,

And M.A. (Cantab) to boot. Had been a chorister at St.Paul's.

Wander00
10th Aug 2016, 11:29
Danny, did not know that bit, thanks

Buster11
10th Aug 2016, 17:51
Back now after a couple of weeks in La France profonde, so here's the final part of my father's story.

As the rapid Soviet advance approached Sagan in January 1945 the Germans marched the prisoners westward; with some notice of this my father had made a sledge. My father was one of the older officers, at 45, and conditions on the march were very bad; it was mid-winter and one of the younger ones, Tony Ingram, was on the point of just lying down in the snow and waiting to be shot, but my father repeatedly urged him on and for many years after the War we received a Christmas card from him. Prisoners were housed in barns and disused factories overnight; in one of the few letters we received after this my father mentioned that as they were marched through villages this was the first time he had seen any children for several years.
He made some handwritten notes on this, perhaps for a book that was never written; I’ve located some of the villages he mentions, a bit tricky as they are now mostly in Poland and the names have changed but one or two don’t seem on a logical route to Luckenwalde.
“28 Jan. 1945 Left Sagan 6 a.m.
28 Jan. Arrived Hellbau at dusk
29 Jan. Lay up in big school at Hellbau (central heating, electric light)
30 Jan. Marched to Sichdichfür, billeted in church (v. cold, we were wet with snow)
31 Jan. Marched to Muskau, billeted in glass and china factory, warm and dry
1 Feb. Lay up all day in factory; stayed night
2 Feb. Marched to Steinau; magnificent sunset en route. Billeted in barn. Good straw to lie on, slept well.
3 Feb. Marched to panzer barracks at Spremberg. Entrained at dusk for Luckenwalde
4 Feb. Arrived Luckenwalde at dusk”
After they reached Stalag IIIA at Luckenwalde we got very few letters from that camp, the last being dated March 25th, 1945; presumably the chaotic conditions meant that PoW mail was a pretty low priority. His few letters from Jan. 11th onwards were received around a year later and stamped “Recovered PoW Mail from Europe Recently Received by British P.O”. We also received a couple of my mother’s letters to my father, sent in late 1944; they were stamped “This letter formed part of undelivered mails which fell into the hands of the Allied forces in Germany. It is undeliverable as addressed, and is therefore returned to you”.
Stalag IIIA had held prisoners from a number of nations and these included the USSR; one of my father’s watercolours was of a sumptuously decorated Russian Orthodox church that Soviet prisoners had created from one of the huts. In view of the fact that some sections of Stalag IIIA had been used earlier in the War during attempts by the Germans to recruit units formed of Allied prisoners I wonder whether improved conditions had been provided for those the Germans had hoped to ‘turn’.
In mid-April the Soviet army liberated the camp; my father’s sketchbooks included drawings of Soviet soldiers and he mentioned that there were several women in the unit. There were problems with immediate repatriation, though, and by May 7th the prisoners were still confined to camp. For some reason at home we were concerned that they might be shipped home via Odessa. Food rations were inadequate and as well as the 16,000 prisoners of mixed nationality there was an influx of Italian refugees. I have the letter from the Senior British Officer to the Russian Commandant for Repatriation outlining the problems; in it he demands immediate repatriation and resigns his responsibility for all but the British prisoners. Eventually my father, along with other RAF prisoners, was moved to Halle airfield, from which he was flown in a USAAF C-47 to Cosford, where he was de-loused, provided with a de-mob suit and from which he finally came back to my mother and me, after five and a half years absence.

Fantome
10th Aug 2016, 21:53
Apropos of nothing at all, I was thinking how Danny's many hearty and heart-felt contributions to this forum are rendered singularly insightful by virtue of his way with words, his skill at putting all his thought down in a way that might prompt a passing comparison with writers such as Steinbeck or Hemingway; roughly hewn as the former's composition may be, in comparison with the polished final product of the masters.
With that in mind, I was struck by a letter I recently received from old mate, who is laid up for a while, but putting his time to good use churning out letters to friends and relations.
(And there is not much of that goes on anymore.) Here is an extract , with his permission -

I do not need to go off to camp in a dessert for forty days and forty nights in order to find revelations as to the true nature of anything. Already, without getting out of bed, I am clear enough in the head that my life, at root a solitary existence as Anne Morrow Lindbergh compellingly says in 'Gift From the Sea', is mapped out in all ways that matter.
With all that for me has gone before badly in close relationships with women, who, with one possible exception, in one way or another helped cause the milk to sour, or were in some sense fellow agents to eventual disappointment, it is now as though I am living a blessed and unforetold time warp, imbued I have to say, as a fellow aviator, with thoughts of high in the sunlit silence, above and beyond the surly bonds of earth.

Stanwell
10th Aug 2016, 23:11
Again, I find no reason to argue with you, Fantome.
Danny does have that knack of stringing two words together, doesn't he?
We are all the better for having the opportunity to take in his very clear recollections and profound observations.
Now, if only...

Fantome
11th Aug 2016, 05:00
well old chasp . .methinks you state the obvious of which I too am many times guilty. What this forum does allow is a frank disclosure of certain beliefs and principles and life lessons that without the advance of IT would leave us totally in the dark in this instance about this wonderful bloke on the other side of the world musing away (and cursing) at his keyboard. . We needs must be grateful to him and to his devoted daughter. Including here of course are those other fountains of fascinating recall who have come aboard.

As mentioned before, this prompts a recall of the posts of a former Australian army chopper pilot turned soldier of fortune spraying for budworm in North America in beaten up old bombers when not ferrying fish and lobsters from Greenland.
His real name was Les but he went by the nom de plume of 'Duke Elegant'.
In his final weeks, about to call it quits with the cancer that plagued his final year he continued to post to his attentive, affectionate sharers on PPRuNe. His writing style was as good as the best encountered here. And his heart was as big as they get.

And so it goes.

Walter603
11th Aug 2016, 07:01
We crossed the bridge at Prettin with no incident. The road was now one continuous stream of refugees and we learned that Falkenberg had been cleared by 8.30 on Sunday evening. Of course, we found that Dommitsch was not in our hands and we got the usual story that our troops were 15 or 20 kms up the road. We each had a good wash, 2 or 3 cups of tea and a smoke, at a factory where 15 of our boys had been working as POWs. They made us very welcome.

At about 4.15pm the people of Dommitsch started to evacuate also! The news was that Annaberg had been taken by the Russians at 4am, although we had been within 7 miles of it during the day and had noted nothing unusual. The trouble was that there was no communication even between villages, and there had been none for a week, owing to bombing. Every town and village was isolated. We decided after this news to start out for Bitterfeld immediately, a place we knew for certain was in Allied hands since the information was contained in one of their dropped leaflets. We set out at 4.45pm to do about 40-50 kilometres intending, if not stopped, to walk after dark until we arrived there.

We kept to the road and made extremely good time, passing soldiers, "volksturm" and military police without question until we finally arrived at the village of Aufhausen, 7 kilometres from Duben, where Allied troops were supposed to be and another 12-15 kilometres from Bitterfeld where Allied troops were certain to be. At this village we were stopped by a military policeman and taken to a German officer,who treated us very well after listening to our lies about "looking for our Kommando", and then told us that "we couldn't walk any further tonight". He detailed a man to see that we were given beds, blankets etc, and we were taken to the local P.O.W. cell, in the care of two young women who stood in the cell doorway talking for a good half-an-hour when we were waiting to go to bed, being dog-tired. They told us that the guard would come for us in the morning and let us go free so that we could walk to our own lines. They said it was all arranged, but I couldn't believe it until it happened. We were supplied incidentally, with about 2 pounds of good farm bread and a 2 pound tin of meat.

At 9a.m. on Tuesday the local policeman came to our cell, told us that the German soldiers had gone and said that we had better get on our way to Duben, 7 kilometres away. We left the place with a great deal of joy and relief and had walked a couple of kilometres when, rounding a bend in the road, we had another surprise meeting with German troops. We had walked right into a large group of them, obviously stopped for a rest. Many were sitting or lying in the grass at the side of the road, while others were standing about talking to each other. Taking a deep and collective breath, we walked on past the soldiers, occasionally nodding and smiling at them on each side of the road and saying "Guden tag!" (Good day to you), to which some of them replied. We hoped they would think we were Frenchmen or other foreign workers, in view of our assorted bits of uniform and civvy clothes.

We reached Duben at 12.30, to find to our joy that it was occupied by the Americans, who had advanced and taken over that morning. We were free! We nearly pumped the arm off the first Yankee soldier that we saw. Arriving in Duben was an adventure by itself! After interrogation to ensure that we were not infiltrators or wanted refugees on the run, I was escorted around the town by a Captain. He asked me if I could ride. Lying cheerfully, I assured him that I could. He provided me with a white horse, and accompanying me on a brown one, we rode around at a gentle speed. At a large bulk store, a very frightened young woman, trying to curry favour I think, asked if there was anything I wanted in the warehouse. Desperately in need of decent footwear, I pointed to my worn boots, soles and heels flapping away from the uppers. She took me to the footwear section, and I selected a reasonable pair of new shoes which I put on and wore immediately.

Back in the centre of town, two Englishmen who had been prisoners for 5 years, vented a little of their pent-up hatred on some captured German officers, making them turn out their pockets, taking anything of value and telling them that they were going to be shot or sent to Siberia. My mates helped out with the Yanks, on guard duty to prevent people from leaving the town, and I stayed in the Town Hall and watched some German prisoners arriving. At about 5pm, in the woods not far away, an American was shot during a skirmish and as they had arrived in Duben only as an advance party, the Colonel decided to evacuate the town for the night.

Before night fell, we crossed the River Mulde by crawling and sliding across the remains of the bridge. It was quite a wide river with fast-flowing water, and there was no other way to cross except by clambering over the shattered masonry and ironwork. The next morning we found that the Germans had advanced from the surrounding wooded country and re-taken the town. We were driven in 1.5 ton trucks at great speed to an aerodrome near Delitsch and put into a large hall to sleep for the night, with full-sized blankets and a box of K-rations each, containing meat, biscuits, chocolate, coffee, cigarettes etc. The American Lieutenant actually apologised for the poor rations. We thought we were living on the fat of the land!

Chugalug2
11th Aug 2016, 09:41
Well done, Walter! You and your colleagues have made it, but only by the skin of your teeth. The ebb and flow of the front line enables you to catch the high tide of it at Duben before it gathers you up and retreats with you. You are free at last, nestling under US Army blankets and clutching US Army K rations at an airfield near Delitzsch.

All this thanks to the self confidence and determination of the young to march out through enemy lines to freedom. This journey started with your decision to swap your identity with a soldier and hence join his work party. It has now paid off, proving that the simplest of plans are usually the best!

Danny42C
11th Aug 2016, 10:52
Walter,

What a fitting conclusion to a wonderful story ! So they didn't get you on the "Long March" after all - it shows what determination and native cunning can do in the tightest of corners. On the other hand, I wonder what happened to your alter ego, who'd been enjoying a less strenuous captivity in an Oflag, when he was roped into this huge "crocodile" of potntial hostages which the Germans wanted to hold onto at all costs ? Of course, their guards wanted to get away from the advancing Russians as fast and as far as they could. Even as late as '54, you could make a German turn pale by muttering "Komm't Russki" !

One phrase of your story could stand for all the rest:
...At a large bulk store, a very frightened young woman, trying to curry favour I think,..
How attitudes had changed ! They couldn't do enough for you now, could they ? - they could see which side their bread was buttered.

I remember the "K" Ration very well. Didn't they have a couple of sheets of toilet paper inside, too - or am I recycling an old folk memory ? Would sustain life well enough, but didn't fill the belly.

Now, it's England, Home and Beauty - except that the Yanks had got there first (only joking!)

This cannot be the End. What's next ?

Danny.

PS: Got this all ready for Post, little bell rang in head, saved it. Copy and Paste next, gloating gremlin struck -- Oh woe, oh wiiloway wailee ! - all gone. Fearfully opened File again, all there. Gremlin's knavish trick frustrated; he departs, rending garments and gnashing teeth - but he'll be back !...D.

Hempy
11th Aug 2016, 11:19
K ration review. The guy is a bit of a space cadet but he keeps it entertaining

LeX0lrnNC6g

MPN11
11th Aug 2016, 11:27
PS: Got this all ready for Post, little bell rang in head, saved it. Copy and Paste next, gloating gremlin struck -- Oh woe, oh wiiloway wailee ! - all gone. Fearfully opened File again, all there. Gremlin's knavish trick frustrated; he departs, rending garments and gnashing teeth - but he'll be back !...D.
Well done, mate!

motohakone
11th Aug 2016, 14:38
motohakone



Please send me your email address (by private message if necessary - box on top right of page), and I'll see what I can do.


WT
Warmtoast, please use this (single-use) address: email address deleted
MH

kghjfg
11th Aug 2016, 23:10
Danny, a little bit off topic, but do you use a gmail account for your email ?

If you do, then you automatically have google docs, which gives you (what is for all intents and purposes) a notepad that lives in the cloud and saves itself automatically after every word. We use this feature extensively in my day job.

If you do have gmail, drop me a PM or mail (however it works here) and I'll happily describe in detail what I'm going on about. It is genuinely very simple and intuitive, but you need a gmail account.

kghjfg
12th Aug 2016, 18:26
Danny, have replied to your PM.
Probably best to drop to email, I've sent an address over !
cheers, Dave Styles.

Warmtoast
12th Aug 2016, 20:56
Motohakone


Email sent
WT

Chugalug2
13th Aug 2016, 07:25
In Remembrance of the Surrender of Japan 14th August 1945, Forces War Records are releasing ALL their POW collections free until midnight 15th August (UK local time):-

Was your ancestor a Prisoner of War during WW2? Would you like to know more about when and where he was held and what happened to him?

In remembrance of the surrender of Japan on 14th August 1945, we’re releasing our POW collections (two of which you won’t find anywhere else online). The following record collections will be completely FREE to search from today until 23:59 on 15th August. •Imperial Prisoners of War Held in Japan (Exclusive to Forces War Records)
•Korea – British Army Prisoners of War
•Imperial Prisoners of War Held in Italy (Exclusive to Forces War Records)
•Prisoners of War of the British Empire Held in Germany
Don’t miss this - offer ends 23:59 15th August


https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/premium?sessionID=1957893&sessionToken=4fc6a8219af7ea8e&pk_campaign=email&pk_kwd=free_pow_records

There are also free publications available for download, including POWs The Inside Story, Battle of Britain 1940, and D-Day The Full Story. Links are also available for survivors or NoK to download Service Records directly from the MOD (charges apply for NoK).

Fantome
13th Aug 2016, 08:10
#9103 -- MPN11 - "Snap"...

it's a fine thing to think of complex card games like 'Snap'.
and to think of Hercules Grytpype-Thynne presenting in exchange his business card . . . always an outrageous model of suave . .
the exchange went something like My card . . MY card. . . MY card . . .MY CARD --SNAP

(and if any cavilling objector says whaatt?? be it known the military link is that this gag was written by one time Gunner Milligan (aka Spike Milligna - the well known typographical error) )

Fantome
13th Aug 2016, 08:34
Chugalug . .. . does this include Australian POWs imprisoned by the Japanese? If so I wonder if these two deceased RAAF veterans are listed? Both were FLT LT in the RAAF . both shot down in their Catalina in January 1942 near Rabual.
FLT LT Geoffrey Metzler and FLT LT Robert Thompson. Both were imprisoned in Japan for the duration of the war. Geoff Metzler gave a long interview with an oral historian two years before his death in 2007. It was not widely circulated but I have a copy of the transcript. It has some graphic descriptions including the detail of being shot down by carrier born Jap fighters. Like Danny, Geoff Metzler had a sharp and sometimes waspish sense of humour. In the camp and after the war he was friends with a Dutch Catalina skipper . Wym Oyins. Geoff said how they were closer than brothers.. On tape Geoff had some incisive and critical remarks to make about a certain senior officer who was otherwise highly regarded in the public eye. (His actual words were "The bull****ting little bastard . ..I could take him!" )

ricardian
13th Aug 2016, 08:34
Ricardian, Your #7174,


I have to agree; I left the RAF after 8 years as an Air Signaller in 1958, joined GCHQ in '59 until 1992. It still rankles me that staff I worked with later got that 'pension enhancement'.
And now this! (http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/650193/IRA-bomber-British-soldier-state-funded-armed-service-pension)

Fantome
13th Aug 2016, 08:41
easy to sense the outrage . .. . . notice his letter confirming his entitlement is from one Jennifer Parsons?

easy to see where her sympathies lie. (if you're going to question authority then don't let a whiff of sexist prejudice stop you.)

Chugalug2
13th Aug 2016, 10:33
Fantome:-
Chugalug . .. . does this include Australian POWs imprisoned by the Japanese?
It should do. I suggest that you enter their details and scan the results. As with any such searches of course, GIGO applies (Garbage In equals Garbage Out). So double check the spelling of their names before doing so. Good luck!

Fantome
13th Aug 2016, 10:50
In Remembrance of the Surrender of Japan 14th August 1945, Forces War Records are releasing ALL their POW collections free until midnight 15th August (UK local time):-


The website is still asking for payment to view the selected service record.

Hempy
13th Aug 2016, 11:15
Fantome, for what it's worth,

Vale Group Captain Paul Metzler – 1914-2010

It is with deep regret that I inform you of the passing of Group Captain Paul Maxwell George Metzler. Paul passed away on Sunday 17 October 2010 at the age of 96.

Paul was born in the Sydney suburb of Mosman on 9 June 1914, on the eve of the First World War. Paul joined the RAAF in June 1938 and remained in the service until March 1977.

Paul was a notable supporter of the CFML, especially given that one of its primary aims is to have VH-CAT permanently based at Rathmines. Paul trained at Rathmines in 1941, qualifying as a Catalina captain. He set out from there in A24-8 in early January 1942 as second pilot to captain FLTLT Robert Thompson. They carried the normal complement of eight crew but also on board were two American surveyors carrying orders to assess various islands in the South West Pacific as potential naval and air bases. That task completed, the Americans were dropped off in Fiji and the Cat headed for home.

At Noumea, however, they received instructions to proceed to Gizo in the Solomons - there to await further orders. Those orders, it transpired, were to take-off at first light on 21st January and track towards New Hanover Island just west of Kavieng in the Bismarck Group where coast watchers had reported a large enemy fleet passing southbound. This task, to quote Paul, was “like looking for a hornet’s nest”.

Cruising at 10,000 feet and approaching New Hanover, the Cat ran out of cloud into clear skies and saw the fleet of warships. They radioed for instructions and were ordered to shadow and report. Paul later said that what they should have done was high tail it back into cloud. Four fighters took off from one the carriers in the fleet and intercepted the Cat, made repeated passes killing two of the crew in the process and setting the aircraft on fire.

When down below 2000 ft, with fabric control surfaces largely burnt away and the aircraft spirally with little control and a crash imminent, they got out of it with the application of near-superhuman effort – the two pilots succeeded in getting the nose up by hauling back on the controls and applying full power. The hull hit the ocean at a terrific pace, first – bouncing a good two hundred yards then roared furiously through the waves. They scrambled out before the boat exploded, with six of the eight crew surviving. They were unable to get to their Mae Wests due to the flames. In the water they watched the Cat, engines still running as blowing the flames back had made the abandoning marginally less hazardous.
The Cat went around and around them in circles, finally burning out amidships so that the nose went up and the tail went up. Then, with a huge hissing cloud of smoke and steam, she sank. A short while later, the flight engineer who had been at his station in the pylon succumbed to his burns.
The five remaining then struck out towards New Hanover perhaps twenty miles to their north. Paul was uncertain how far away they were.

After about two hours swimming one of the party called out "Warship!"
It proved to be a Japanese cruiser despatched from the fleet to look for survivors. As the ship neared Thompson shouted to the others "Keep swimming. Nobody wave to the bastards."
Paul recalled: "When we could ignore them no longer, Thompson called out 'Swim your best men, proper crawl in formation' ".

They did just that until they got to the rope netting that had been dropped down the side of the ship. He said he could still see in his mind's eye the massive grey side of the warship with a huge pink carnation painted on her bows. Paul further recalled that when they climbed over the rail onto the deck they encountered a large contingent of excited young ratings "jabbering and pointing, all wearing either short longs or long shorts - not much better than what you see on youth today hanging round the beaches and the streets”.

They were treated well enough, examined by the ship's doctor and confined to quite comfortable quarters. All five survivors saw the war out in camps in Japan. After the surrender, Paul, being permanent air force, returned to the RAAF. After only two weeks leave he was assigned to a desk job at Victoria Barracks in Melbourne. After a year there he posted himself to Sale, completed an instructor's course then went on to Point Cook.

In a short time he was CFI and then commanding officer of the base. Paul's final posting was to Air Force headquarters in Canberra. He retired as Group Captain in 1977. Outside of his service life, Paul achieved considerable distinction on the tennis court and with his subsequent authorship of several books of instruction in the sport - some are still in print in the USA.

Paul was at Bankstown on 7 December 2008 to greet VH-CAT on her arrival there at the end of her ferry flight from Portugal. Paul and his son Geoffrey took a look over her with Paul sitting in the pilot’s seat – reminiscent of his time as an operational Catalina pilot in 1942.

PAUL METZLER'S CATALINA A24-8

Delivered by Qantas as VH-AFI 16/08/41. To 20 Sqn 11/9/41. Shot Down 21/01/42, 3 killed. Crew: FLTLT Robert Thompson (Pilot), FLTLT Paul Metzler (2nd Pilot), SGT Leo Clarke (2nd Wireless Op/Air Gunner), CPL Jack Perret (1st Engineer), LAC Ken Parkyn (2nd Engineer), LAC M. Sollit (1st Wireless Op), LAC Bill Blackman (Rigger) and LAC J. Cox (Armourer).

World War Two Nominal Roll (http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/Veteran.aspx?ServiceId=R&VeteranId=1078417)


https://www.awm.gov.au/images/collection/items/ACCNUM_SCREEN/P04017.004.JPGGroup portrait of prisoners of war (POWs), Zentsuji Camp at Shikoku, Osaska, Japan. Identified left to right: Lieutenant (Lt) Harlan T Johnson, United States Navy, USS Yorktown; Lt H D Beudeukew, Royal Dutch Navy (RDN); Flight Lieutenant (Flt Lt) R Thompson, RAAF; unidentified; and Flt Lt Paul G Metzler, RAAF. Most of the men in the camp were Allied officers captured in the early battles of 1942. The camp was a 'show camp' used by the Japanese for propaganda purposes, but after 1942 conditions worsened. Flt Lts Thompson and Metzler were both captured by the Japanese in the South West Pacific.

Chugalug2
13th Aug 2016, 11:31
Fantome, I have searched myself for both Geoffery and Paul Metzier AND Metzler on the Forces War Records site all to no avail. I rather suspect that my answer to your question was incorrect, and that those in the Australian Forces are not included (presumably being listed in the equivalent Australian site). If that is the case my apologies for misleading you.

Danny42C
13th Aug 2016, 12:59
Buster11 (#9106),
... so here's the final part of my father's story...
And now another tale of Another World Long Gone Bye comes to its end in the grey, cold, war-weary Britain at the end of WWII. And another young life would never be the same again. Thanks for telling us his story, Buster - "...of such tales are dreams made of..."

Danny.

Danny42C
13th Aug 2016, 13:40
Fantome (#9107 and #9109),

What can I say ? Hide my blushes ! Nothing remarkable in a boy of the "hungry thirties", who was lucky enough to get a grammar-school education at the tender (?) hands of the Irish Christian Brothers. They had taken to heart Churchill's dictum: "I would not have boys beaten at school. Except for not learning English. And I would beat them very hard for that". And Shaw, in "Pygmalion" and the later "My Fair Lady" based on it, has Professor Higgins in exasperation say: "Why can't the English learn how to speak ?"

And if you can speak, you can write. I would be a hopeless author, as I cannot imagine plots or scenarios, tho' perhaps able to describe them.

Was "thrown" a bit by your:
...this wonderful bloke on the other side of the world musing away (and cursing) at his keyboard. We needs must be grateful to him and to his devoted daughter...
until I realised which side you are on !

G'day, mate !

Danny.

Chugalug2
13th Aug 2016, 14:12
Buster, I too thank you for giving us your father's account of his trek west from Sagan. A difficult thing to do, given that the then German place names are now Polish and he probably had only the phonetic versions to go by anyway. This site gives a German/Polish listing of place names in present day Poland:-

Index of German-Polish and Polish-German names of the localities in Poland & Russia. ATS notes. (http://www.atsnotes.com/other/gerpol.html)

Thus his first nightstop was probably at Halbau rather than Hellbau and is now called Ilowa, some 16Km to the southwest of Zagan. The third night at Muskau Bad is now Leknika, some 44Km from Ilowa.

Somewhere in between must be "Sichdichfür", but I'm not sure where that figures in the list (even if indeed it does) either in German or Polish. Perhaps our linguists might help (Danny?). At least Leknika gets him to the present German frontier, so making the rest of the march easier to follow.

Danny42C
13th Aug 2016, 14:41
Chugalug,

Never came across "sichdichfür". Google Translate no help. No Dictionary to hand.

Meaning is clear enough: "Self - thou - for", the exact rendering of the French "Chacun pour soi" = "Every man for himself !".

Danny.

Buster11
13th Aug 2016, 15:13
Danny And another young life would never be the same again.
Not sure which of our lives you refer to, but my father was 45 when he came home in 1945 and I was almost ten. I suppose both of our lives were changed. He missed influencing my formative years and physically he came back with arthritis of his hands, not good for an artist; the treatment involved regularly immersing them in baths of hot wax.

Again craving the indulgence of the moderators (not to mention PPRuNe people) I'll try to give an idea of life as a child growing up in what, even in a Hampshire village, were exciting times.

From late 1940 at the age of five I lived with my mother in a small village called Eversley, on the Hampshire/Berkshire border, to which we moved from the family home near Croydon.



Spindle Cottage, which my mother had leased from a naval officer whose wife had moved to Portsmouth where he was based, dated from the early eighteenth century and had an outside earth closet. Hot water was provided by boiling a large kettle on the wood or coal fired kitchen range and bathing was done in a large galvanised bath in the scullery. The cottage had the advantage for me of being on a road that saw a lot of military traffic, so from about the age of six I became an expert at tank recognition. As the war progressed the Matildas, Valentines and Crusaders passing the door of Spindle Cottage gave way to Churchills and US-built Grants, Lees and Shermans with prominent white stars on their sides. When I re-visited Eversley in about 1995 the kerb outside our cottage still showed the regular chips to its edge caused by the steel tracks of a Churchill that took it a bit close on the way down to the invasion ports. There were Daimler scout cars, Beaverettes, Bren carriers and 25-pounder guns towed by Quad tractors, which had a distinctive gearbox whine as they passed us in regular convoys; later on, tanks with mysterious concertina-like skirts and tall vertical exhaust pipes, amphibious jeeps and DUKWs in the convoys made it pretty clear that we were seeing the build-up to the invasion.

Our house was a hundred yards from a bridge over the Blackwater river, and the bridge was believed by the locals to be mined; cylindrical concrete tank stoppers, maybe a couple of feet in diameter and three feet high, were beside the bridge, ready to be lifted into place to block the crossing in case of invasion. Later in the war, every Tuesday there were Army exercises around the bridge that involved a lot of Thunderflashes and smoke grenades, with troops crawling round in the undergrowth with camouflage draped over their helmets. Finding a dud Thunderflash was always an exciting moment for the local boys, as the magnesium powder could be removed and lit, with a spectacular but non-explosive flash resulting. We could also get a good result after removing the diamond-shaped flakes of cordite from discarded blank rifle rounds and lighting the pile. Black bakelite caps from the practice grenades, along with white tapes that were also part of the igniting system, were also sought-after collectibles. One day the man who ran Bonney’s the grocers, opposite our house, and who was in the Home Guard, discovered me in the garden shed having just put a recently-found 20mm cannon shell, complete with cartridge, in the vice; I forget what my plan had been, but fortunately it was thwarted. ‘Window’, - strips of aluminium foil dropped from aircraft to confuse radar, - was also collected; there were two types, one plain metal and another that for some reason was anodised matt black on one side. Maybe one was Allied and the other German. Occasionally we found a complete roll that had not been chopped into quarter-wavelength reflectors, and this made splendid decorative chains for Christmas.



Opposite our cottage was the village post office, manned by Miss Andrews; In the evenings we could hear the regular thump-thump as she hand-franked the day’s mail on the counter. One day in 1941 she came to our door with a telegram; it told my mother that my father was missing in action and that we would be informed by the Air Ministry as soon as there was further news. Eventually there was and he spent the next four years of the War in German prison camps. We were allowed to send parcels to my father, but the packing had to be done by the International Red Cross and occasionally we took a bus to Farnham Castle, the local centre for this; my contribution to one was a laboriously knitted orange and green housewife (pronounced ‘huzzif’) in which to keep darning needles and wool. I still have all his PoW letters to my mother and me and occasionally he asked for chocolate and artist’s materials, though at the time we had no idea of the uses to which the latter were sometimes put. That came out after the War.

Fareastdriver
15th Aug 2016, 15:47
I posted this once before but I pulled it so as not to steal Walter 603 and Buster11's thunder. Now the thread is on Page 2 it is now time to re-insert and probably get booed off the stage.

I spent two and a half years on Valiant tankers and during that time I visited Omaha, Goose Bay, Luqa, Akrotiri, Tripoli, El Adem, Nairobi, Bahrain, Masirah, Karachi, Bombay, Gan, Butterworth and Tengah averaging an overseas trip every couple of months. This, compared with a Main Force Bomber crew’s ration of a Lone Ranger once a year, was continuous globe trotting. It all had to come to an end in 1965 when the Valiants were suddenly withdrawn from service. For the Air Secretary’s department this was a nightmare, being saddled with several hundred aircrew to post; somewhere. Luckily help was at hand in the form of Dr. Sukarno of Indonesia who was in Confrontation with Malaysia. Two squadrons of helicopters had been sent out at short notice to Borneo and their pilots would need replacing over the next year and so I, with several other Valiant co-pilots, went to Tern Hill to learn to fly from Zero to 120 instead of 120 to Mach One.

Man, through millenniums, has watched the birds and wished he could fly like they could. After thousands of years trying man learned to run down a hill and become airborne in some rickety contraption. Nearly a century later man learned to propel a construction along the ground at such a rate that empennages either side used the resultant wind’s effect to lift it in the air. Birds, except some waterborne versions that do a high speed Jesus Christ trick, don’t do that, they take off from the spot. Flying around on a hot summer’s day and spying an ice-cream wagon one can swoop down and acquire ample refreshing ice cream for oneself and the crew. Fixed wing can’t do that, only helicopters and seagulls can. I was now going to learn to FLY and in retrospect, it was the best decision that the RAF even made for me.

The ignorant and uninformed on this thread have expressed their distain for we rotary wing brethren. Their appreciation has been restricted to their being hoisted out of a hostile sea or a numbingly cold mountainside. For their education I will describe the training that one HAD to go through to be a real pilot, not a fixed wing systems operator. I emphasise the word HAD; it doesn’t happen this way anymore.

Helicopters are classed as rotary wing aircraft. This is because instead of generating lift by hurling it down a concrete runway (fixed wing) we spin our wings around the top of the aircraft in the comfort of the squadron dispersal in order to do the same thing. This cuts the time from coffee to getting airborne, and vice versa, to a couple of minutes instead of Le Grande Tour of the airfield both ways. They are, in aeronautical terms, of extremely high aspect ratio; this makes them very efficient as can be demonstrated by modern airliners whose wings are pathetically thin in cruising flight yet grow to an enormous size by the use of slats, fowler flaps and other gizmos for take off and landing. Structures like this bend in operation and those that have been passengers in airliners will know that there is a fair amount of flex whilst in flight. Helicopters blades, especially the Sycamore’s, being made out of wood, have to work far harder than that so instead of bending they have hinges that let them fly up or down called flapping hinges. The varying drag as they rotate causes them to try and decelerate and accelerate so they are allowed to with drag hinges. Lift and direction is enabled by varying the angle of attack as the blade goes around so to allow this there are feathering hinges. Basically they can go up/down/forwards/ backwards and twist within the control and structural constrains but the most powerful effect is from the pitch operating arms on the leading edge of the blade that controls the pitch. Wiki has a excellent picture of a Sycamore rotor head.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_Sycamore#/media/File:Helicopter_Bristol_171_Sycamore_main_gear_box_and_rotor _head.jpg

The control arms have colour coding bands so the yellow control rode is attached to the yellow blade pitch operating arm; red to red, etc.

The Sycamore uses a central spigot that is allowed to articulate and slide with a ball within in the rotor shaft. This means that when you lift or wriggle the bottom the top moves in sympathy. Later control systems have two discs around the shaft below the rotor head; one attached by the controls and the fuselage and the top attached to and controlling the rotating head. They are called fixed and rotating stars.

Before I get shot down by Bell and 105 pilots there are some smaller helicopters that are either teetering, rigid or semi rigid but, however, in the overwhelmingly majority of cases they are known as fully articulated rotors.

Controlling them is as natural as possible. A stick is placed in front of the pilot in a similar way to a conventional control column. This is called a cyclic stick because is controls the rotor blades pitch cyclically as they go round. It works in much the same way as a control sick inasmuch as whichever way you push it the aircraft tends to pitch or roll in sympathy. Rudder pedals on the floor control the tail rotor and work in much the same way. Most of us older pilots on this thread can remember putting bootfuls of rudder to overcome the torque reaction from a propeller. Helicopters also have the same problem with torque reaction when they lift from the ground. Pedal movement not only controls this but enables you to point the fuselage in the direction of choice. Twin rotor machines have the rotors going opposite ways so the torque is cancelled out so directional control is by tilting the front and rear rotors in different directions. Lastly there is, unique to helicopters, the collective lever. This is a lever than resembles a deluxe handbrake that collectively increases or decreases the pitch on the rotor blades. This is the bit that enables you to go up and down. On the end is mounted the throttle. In older designs of helicopters it controls the engine in the same way as in older designs of aeroplanes. Newer examples are levers that control Engine Management Systems which look after the engines for you as do modern fixed wing. There is a cam on the collective that will open the throttle as the lever is raised so as to increase the engine power in sympathy with the lift required. It worked with the original P&W but the Leonides had a different throttle gradient so it wasn’t so good. The controls are arranged in such a way that with ability and experience the pilot can carry out knife edge manoeuvring without being conscious that he is actually flying it.

But not with the Bristol Sycamore HAR14 !!!!!!!!!

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=bristol+sycamore&rlz=1T4PLXB_enGB684GB684&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiQ9euq5pDOAhVJCMAKHfMDAWYQiR4IeQ&biw=1440&bih=812#imgrc=76c75weqdjCk2M%3A

Stanwell
15th Aug 2016, 18:49
Excellent post, FED. Thank you.
A few weeks back, there was a post (I think it might have been on the funnies page) where the Chief Pilot of a large fixed-wing operation
described his first rotary wing experience.
It think it must been in a Bell 47.
He'd expressed it as something like trying to shave and wank at the same time.
That one still has me chuckling.
.

Fantome
16th Aug 2016, 07:58
c'mon mate it's a given fling-wing drivers always have their hand on it... (Lack of aviation content forbids mention of 'sailor' and wankers away.)

But if the wife's best friend will not go in peace - this is a the repeat I'm afraid . . .( stop me if…..) about a county game of cricket. Sutcliffe was on strike. A fast rising ball hit him hard in the cods. He dropped his bat. He went into a pained stooped over position rubbing the effected parts vigorously. A Yorkshire spectator cupped his hands for his voice to carry . "Herbert. . . . . . stop pleasurin' tha self .. play cricket."

Fareastdriver
16th Aug 2016, 08:43
I will ignore all these rude remarks about helicopter pilots with the comforting knowledge that some women will do anything to get a ride on our choppers.

Stanwell
16th Aug 2016, 09:05
With reference to my post, above, the Bell 47 (depending on the model) was, within limits, a mild-mannered beast.
Just ask Vertical Freedom.
And, no, I was never a rotary-wing pilot myself - although I'd spent quite some hours in the left-hand seats.
Now that we've stopped chuckling, we'd seriously be most interested to hear your impressions of the Sycamore, FED.
An uncle of mine used to fly those with the RAN but he'd passed away before I knew enough to ask some questions.
.

Fareastdriver
16th Aug 2016, 10:41
I had been to Tern Hill before doing my basic training with the Provost T1. The Bristol Sycamore, our basic helicopter trainer, had the same type of engine, the Alvis Leonides. Between the Valiants folding and my rotary wing course I had got a few hours in the Chipmunk so I was reasonably au fait with suck, squeeze, bang and blow; one at a time.

The cockpit instruments were conventional suction driven with the addition of your staff of life, the dual taco Engine and Rotor rpm. Just to make things difficult the boost gauge had been changed from LBS to Manifold Air Pressure so +8 boost was now something like 46 ins. There was no hydraulic assistance so the controls were low geared and heavy. To alleviate this there spring tensioned pitch and roll trim wheels arranged conventionally to assist the cyclic. This was high tech compared with early S51s that had loops of bungee strategically placed around the cockpit so that the cyclic could be restrained by a convenient loop. A follow on from the restricted control range was a matter of fuel and passengers. These were all in front of the rotor mast so to keep the CofG correct there was a tank of glycol/water mix under the cockpit floor. This was controlled by a two-way switch that pumped it back or forwards to a tank at the end of the tail boom to adjust the CofG. Get this wrong and you were going backwards or forwards fairly rapidly when you got airborne. The S51 had a weight that the pilot slid along the floor. The problem with this was that he was always moving it uphill. (Think about it)

28th June 1965, I stepped into the Right Hand Seat (normal with helicopters) of XJ384 for my first attempt. The introduction to the cockpit followed observing that there were dual controls but only one collective so relaxing ones hand so the instructor could recover us from disaster was paramount. The dual tacho gauge looked like a torture chamber. I was used to 2,800 rpm +4½ of boost being take off with 3,000 +8 for emergency. Judging by the bands on the Rotor Taco the engine was in this range all of the time.

Starting was electric. The left hand operated the co-located starter and booster pump switches, the right hand held the throttle and the knees held the cyclic in case the rotor started moving. This was because there was a centrifugal clutch between the engine and gearbox which started engaging at about 1,000 engine RPM. The plan was to start and idle at 800 RPM without engaging the clutch but depending on the engine this could not be guaranteed. We started, warmed it up and my instructor lifted into the hover. I was right; the engine was roaring away at full bore with everything shaking and rattling. We then hover-taxied to a quiet part of the airfield for ‘Effects of Controls’. I was showed how to work them one plane at a time and it did what it was supposed to do and then I was given it to hover.

It sat there, five feet above the ground, motionless and as solid as a rock. This is easy, I thought; where were all the horror stories I had heard about helicopters, this is a piece of cake. Just then a faintest whisper of a draught, not even a minor zephyr, wafted onto the port side. The aircraft, in perfect balance, drifted to the right. I corrected and it banked slightly to the left. This changed the lift equilibrium so it sank which I corrected by lifting the lever which increased the drag on the disc which caused it to reduce Rrpm. I caught this by opening the throttle which increased the torque so the aircraft turned to the left so I inputted right rudder which increased the loading so the Rpms dropped again. Meanwhile the aircraft was drifting off to the left and climbing. I corrected by lowering the lever which caused the aircraft to turn right which changed the wind direction to the rear quarter so the aircraft drifted forward and sideways. I pulled the nose up to stop it with the result that the tail rotor’s thrust line went below the main rotor hub so the aircraft rolled to the left. I put in too much forward and right input so the aircraft pitched violently forward and right and started a rapid descent. I pulled up more lever, the rpm dropped so I opened the throttle and this caused the aircraft to turn left so the wind got behind and pushed the tail up again and as I was trying to level it the wind pushed the tail around so I was facing a different way which I tried to correct with tail rotor which made the rpm go up again so I closed the throttle and it turned and sank and drifted rapidly to the left.

AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG

“I have control”, and I felt the instructors hand take over the collective and the world stabilised and came back into focus.

We went through the effects again and the next time was slightly better but then it was time to leave the circuit. I followed lightly on the controls as we increased forward speed. At about 30 knots there was a violent shudder and roll from the aircraft which almost immediately disappeared. This was the transitional buffet. What happens is that there is one set of rules in the hover and another one in forward flight and the transition is where a new pack of cards is shuffled. Once it’s past that then it follows almost fixed wing characteristics.

In the cruise at 100 knots it was almost normal. The trim wheels worked fine and one could let it fly itself for a short time and the rotor rpm was fairly stable. After a time there was not a lot of difference from having a Leonides blaring away in front of you to one blaring away behind.

We returned to the circuit and after a standard pattern we approached to land. I was reminded at about 100 feet to put the trim wheels at 2 degrees right and 2 degrees back as that would put the controls to where you wanted them when you got into the hover. Not too many disasters and now my first flight was over so we staggered over to the dispersal to shut down.

Once on the ground the throttles were retarded so that the engine ran at 1,200 rpm to cool down. Then the throttle was closed to idle. This is when one looked into the mirror at the top of the windscreen to check that the droop stops were in.

Droop Stops are wedge shaped things that restrict the downwards flapping of the blades at low Rrpm so that they don’t chop the tail off. They can be seen on the rotor head picture extending out of the top of the picture. They each have a weighted ball on the end which will fly out at high rpm and withdraw the wedges against a spring. Conversely the spring will force them and the wedges back when the rotor slows down. Should one fail and this can be seen by one of the balls not rotating the same as the others then there is a high risk of a blade hitting the boom.

In that case we go to Plan A:

The rotor is accelerated and decelerated a few times with small movements of the cyclic to try and centralise them.

Should that not work we go to Plan B:

A fire engine comes along and positions a large hosepipe to the right rear of the rotor disc. The blades rotate clockwise looking from above so it is on the side before they reach the boom. A jet of water is then directed just over the boom in front of the tail rotor and the engine is shut down. As the rotor decays and the errant blade sinks it lands on top of the water jet and is carried over the boom. The blades, although wooden, were made by real carpenters so they were unaffected by this sudden dowsing.

Should there not be a fire engine available then we go to Plan C:

There isn’t a Plan C.

What they had to do was to place a large think blanket over the boom at the critical point where the blade would hit it. The mass balances on the blade tips looked like 20mm cannon shells and as such they would bounce off this as they went around. In practice there were only two of three thumps and then the blades stopped. No blanket: Bang, Bang, Thud, unless you were very lucky.

This time there was nothing untoward and that was it for the day and being Friday it was off for the weekend.

Buster11
16th Aug 2016, 10:42
Still a couple more bits of the 'by the way' stuff on a thread that must surely be due some sort of prize for being the most divergent from its actual title.

It was probably in 1943 that we had a short holiday with relatives in Newcastle-under-Lyme and I remember large numbers of Canadian troops based nearby. For local small boys their special appeal was that they smoked Sweet Caporal cigarettes and on the back of the packets were a series of aircraft recognition silhouettes; these were highly collectable and the cry “Got any Sweet Caps” followed any soldier with a ‘Canada’ shoulder flash. We were after the packets rather than their contents and much enthusiastic swapping took place in order to get a complete set of silhouettes. With a father in the Air Force it was probably inevitable that aviation was my main interest, and like several friends I could not only recognise a vast range of aircraft visually, but also a lot of them by sound. One of my possessions was a cardboard device that one held at arm’s length, consisting of two arms pivotted together at the bottom. A list of aircraft types was printed up one side and when you had identified a type and moved the cardboard arms so they appeared to touch its wingtips you could read off its altitude on a scale.

I used to go off for walks by the Blackwater and was once found by my mother sharing a baked bean lunch from a Canadian soldier’s mess-tin. On another occasion I met some Italian prisoners of war (distinguished by having large white circular patches sewn on the back of their overalls as aiming marks in case of escape); they were clearing mud from the river. By then my father was also a POW and I explained to them that he had been captured in Crete, which they understood. My mother was rather affected when I told her about this particular meeting, I think.

To supplement my father’s RAF pay and to pay my school fees my mother, who had been a teacher before I was born, did some coaching at home, but cooking and looking after a small boy in the absence of a father must have been pretty demanding. I don’t remember ever being hungry but I do recall my mother making ’marzipan’ for Christmas cakes from glucose powder, almond essence and soya flour; it tasted pretty good to me, and for some time after the War I thought this was what marzipan was supposed to taste like.

My daily walk to school, about a mile and a half, took me past a military convalescent home, where wounded soldiers, dressed in bright blue pyjama jackets and red ties were wheeled in invalid chairs or hobbled on crutches.

By the age of about six or seven I had a bike, with wood blocks screwed each side of the pedals so I could reach them; one of its features was a projection from the left of the rear hub, about a couple of inches long, You put a left foot on that, kind of skipped along with the right one, and then when up to speed vaulted onto the saddle; I became quite adept. My mother and I would go for long bike rides and one of the best used to be to Hazeley Heath. This was an area of sand pits and heathland that was used for tank recovery practice. Several old tanks lay there and while my mother gathered blackberries I would explore the interiors of these; in one, a Matilda I think, I found the turret traversing crank and managed to get the turret to rotate. One day a German PzKw III was lying there, probably captured during the campaign in the Western Desert. Another ride took us to a Bofors anti-aircraft gun site at Sandhurst, where I was allowed to sit on one of the gun’s seats and operate the elevation and shown how the gun was fired. In the saddle bags of our bikes we would carry a Kilner jar of full cream milk; the rough roads, coupled with a bit of shaking while we stopped for a picnic, produced a small amount of butter which supplemented our ration.

The other regular cycling destination was Hartfordbridge Flats, where in 1942 a new airfield was being built, re-named Blackbushe near the end of the War. The first day we went there my mother picked blackberries while I wandered about on the airfield (nobody seemed to mind reasonably-behaved small boys then); it was the sight and the smell of rows of camouflaged Hotspur training gliders and Whitley bombers, used as tugs, that got me hooked on aircraft for life. The smell of warm aircraft, with their doped ply and fabric, and the aromatic fumes of high octane aviation fuel (probably 130 octane then) cast a spell that brought me and my long-suffering mother back to that airfield as often as I could persuade her to pedal there, and kept me involved with aviation in various forms ever since. A bit more about RAF Hartfordbridge later.

Fareastdriver
16th Aug 2016, 10:49
The Bell 47/Sioux with it's weight stabilised teetering rotor was a different world from the Sycamore. More about that later.

Danny42C
16th Aug 2016, 10:53
This is a private fight, and will not join in, but just say that my first sight of a chopper made me think: "I'm seeing this - but I don't really believe it !" And a tinge of that belief has never left me. As for Harriers.......words fail me.

Think it's all a big conjuring trick, done with smoke 'n mirrors.

But, paradoxically, I like the autogyro idea. Seems much more friendly in a way (as a glider to an aircraft). Now if I were about 60 years younger (ain't going to happen), had the money (which I haven't) and Mrs D. would permit (which she wouldn't), would like to have one to play with.

After all, the choppers have their cyclic stick (is that what it's called ?)

Danny42C

MPN11
16th Aug 2016, 11:03
Thanks, Fareastdriver ... a masterly presentation on the multiple effects of controls in a helicopter!! :D

Buster11 ... very nostalgic! I know the area quite well, as we initially retired to Camberley before emigrating here.

Danny42C
16th Aug 2016, 19:39
Buster11 (#9139),
...on a thread that must surely be due some sort of prize for being the most divergent from its actual title...
The special virtue of "Pilot's Brevet" is that we are under the wise supervision of our infinitely tolerant Moderators, who early realised that old fellas ramble off in all directions - but can always be counted on to come home for tea. So they allow us enormous rope, provided that we play nicely and are never rude to each other.

In consequence, they have presided over the eight-year growth of the most popular Thread on "Military Aviation" Forum (and possiblly on any other PPRuNe Forum). To back this up, I invite you to consider only Threads which have over 5,000 replies (ie Posts) - to allow the Law of Large Numbers to come into play - and then divide the number of "Views" (ie "hits") by the number of replies.
Who would dispute that that the number of hits per Post is a fair indicator of popularity ?

The results are striking:

"Caption Competition" (which you would suppose to romp away from the field)........140.
"F-35 Cancelled, then what ?" (could be renamed: "Now what's the matter with it ?)...163.
"Gaining an R.A.F. Pilot's Brevet in WWII"....(wait for it, rumble of drums) ................239.

Yes, it deserves some form of prize !
...I wandered about on the airfield (nobody seemed to mind reasonably-behaved small boys then)...
It was so, I remember when we senior boys from St. Joseph's were allowed out for a couple of hours on Sunday afternoons (but caps had to be worn so that miscreants could be identified and reported to the College). Our favourite port of call was Stanley Park Aerodrome (about a mile away) . We wandered in, closely inspected the Gypsy, Puss and all sorts of other Moths and various things in the open hangars, and watched the Club flying at a respectful distance. But we we would not go into a cockpit, only looked through cabin windows, were careful not to do any harm, and would have been horrified at the very idea of any theft or vandalism.

It is hard to remember such days now.

Danny.

Stanwell
17th Aug 2016, 02:13
I'd just today received some material from the RAAF Museum.
Persistent readers of this thread may have noticed that the question of the differences between the RAF and RAAF badges and uniforms had previously been raised.

Well, where do I start?
This is going to take a little while for me, given that I've got quite a bit on my plate at the moment.
So, I'll just try to break it down into bite-sized pieces when I have the opportunity to take a rest, a cuppa and sit down in front of the evil machine.

The story reads like something from a script of "Yes Minister".

It had been reported that the Chester Herald described the RAF '****e-Hawk' as "a cross between an albatross, eagle and parrot".
I understand that our (Oz) Air Board, in the latter 1930s, had decided that it would be a good idea to adopt a badge that should incorporate a bird
that looked like an eagle, rather than something that could be mistaken for an albatross.

In true Sir Humphrey fashion, it took nearly seven years (and, no doubt, a good slice of the GNP) for them to get that right.
Back later. Duty calls.

Walter603
17th Aug 2016, 06:00
After a good sleep I walked around and met Lieutenant Grayber, a very cheerful young man who drove me about in his jeep on various visits and finally took me to lunch at his Mess. Meat and vegetables, fried potatoes and bread that was too white to be true, and tasted like cake.

Mr. Mackintosh, a Red Cross man, fixed things for me to send a cable home, informing my family that I was safe and well. Grayber said he thought we may have to stay a couple of days, but after another hour or two spent in looking at the German prisoners, now so humble and submissive, he suddenly announced that he thought he could get us away. Half an hour later we were in trucks again, bound for the city of Halle.

When we arrived we were taken to a large barracks and registered as ex-PoWs, shown a block of rooms and told to pick our own. These were in a shocking state and looked as though they had contained a horde of wild pigs. By this time there was only "Flash" Gordon left with me.

We cleaned up as best we could, and were then taken once again for delousing and had our clothes "cooked". We were issued with tickets to obtain our tea and were very surprised when issued with 500 grms. of bread, nearly twice as much as we had been getting per day with the Germans. It was the same at breakfast and lunch the next day, far more than our poor stomachs could take at that time.

Bye-bye Yanks!

I found a job with the office staff typing out lists of names and military details of new arrivals. After 5 days I began to suspect we were getting no closer to our desire to get out of Germany. The fact was that we were actually being held prisoners by the Americans, on the grounds that the Allies didn't want unidentified refugees and ex- prisoners like us wandering over the countryside still at war. Perfectly reasonable of course. The result was that we were not allowed out of the barracks, and there were armed guards on all the exits.

After prowling around the large building we discovered basement rooms or offices, all with barred windows, giving access to the street on the "quiet" side of the barracks. I don't remember what instruments we used for the purpose, but with determination we were able to prise apart the bars of one window, large enough for us to climb out, up the side of the concreted, moat-like surround and merge with some passers-by in the street. We were then soon on our way westwards.

We left Halle on the Saturday, stayed with some American Military Policemen for the night at Sangerhausen and reached Nordhausen on Sunday. We were "screened" by the Military Government and taken to the airport. We met a Captain who was a medical officer and he assured us that there was no hope of a flight from Nordhausen airfield. Back at Nordhausen town we were accommodated by American troops who, in spite of our protests, gave us their beds in a commandeered German home and took us to their Mess for dinner, a really wonderful meal.

In Nordhausen was a factory where the V1 and V2 bombs were made. There were some terrible stories about the place. When the Americans arrived they found, in the concentration camp attached to the factories, hundreds of bodies of prisoners, men, women and children, who had been literally starved and overworked to death. The Germans had been bringing 1,000 new civilian labourers of foreign nationality to the town every week. They were worked and starved to death, then a fresh batch arrived.

On Monday we were given credentials asking American forces to do everything possible to expedite our return west by road or air. Captain MacFarlane, who was in charge of the airport, told us that he would definitely get us away, although we would have to wait until the hospital patients were evacuated. We waited on the aerodrome until 4p.m., then decided to go back to town once more. We stayed in the same house and had another good night's sleep in a wonderful bed. Those Yankee boys certainly treated us well. We had an orange, cereal with milk, eggs, bacon, white bread and butter and coffee for breakfast. A prisoner's dream of home! We then went to the aerodrome again together with 3 American soldiers, but nothing came in by 2pm so we got onto the road for Kassel and made our way west, as advised by the Military Government.

We left Nordhausen by jeep with another American Leutenant and got as far as Warburg, which is 20 miles west of Kassel. Here we were persuaded by an American Major to leave the jeep, in which it was our intention to proceed as far as Brussels in Belgium, since he said we could be flown away immediately if we would allow him to send us to an aerodrome nearby. We were taken to Paderborn where we met a British officer, Major Bell. He passed us on to another American, Major Rand, at the next village and we finished up by being taken under the wing of a Colonel Eastree. We were accommodated for the night and the Colonel promised us that we would be on our way home the next day.

At 9a.m. on Wednesday, we were again driven over the countryside and arrived at Hildesheim, 100 kilometres north-east of Warburg. Here we were disinfected (oh Gawd) once again and registered, being group No. 145. At 2p.m. we were overjoyed to hear the shout, "All British and Americans down to the hangars." We were loaded into American Dakota C47s, (called DC3's by the British) and at 5.30p.m. found ourselves at Brussels. We were greeted by a Royal Air Force film unit. One of its members looked at me curiously, eyes fixed on my self-made shoulder epaulettes on my shirt. "What's your rank?" he said. Giving him a short explanation, I said, "I'm a Flying Officer." "Blimey", he replied, "you nearly made yourself an Air Commodore, didn’t you?"

There was a contingent of the Red Cross, who supplied us with tea, biscuits, chocolate, cigarettes etc. We were taken to a barracks in town, de-fumigated for the umpteenth time, fed, registered, interrogated etc. At 9p.m. Flash and I took a tramcar ride to see the city, which was very lively. We missed the last tram back, and had to walk all the way.

Danny42C
17th Aug 2016, 09:15
Walter,

Gosh ! Wow ! - What an Odyssey !

So many choice bits I want to pick out - More later....

Danny.

Wander00
17th Aug 2016, 10:07
An amazing story that merits a wider audience. I am humbled.

Fantome
17th Aug 2016, 15:10
Danny's excursions into the wonders of Stanley Park Aerodrome recalls Clive James, who in his 'Unreliable Memoirs' tells of his early fascination with the aircraft of the Second World War. He and his mate Gary had unrestricted access to Sydney (Kingsford Smith) Airport, known simply as Mascot.

copy this into browser to read relevant pages -

https://books.google.com.au/books?
id=MiXvAgAAQBAJ&pg=PT57&lpg=PT57&dq=clive+james++mascot&source=bl&ots=ObY5oFc5lO&sig=NbP9aiqSBdd1U2k49aDUM2PySDA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj4mYjg2sjOAhVJGZQKHQ9tCEEQ6AEIWTAJ#v=onepage&q=clive%20james%20%20mascot&f=false

We wandered in, closely inspected the Gypsy, Puss and all sorts of other Moths and various things in the open hangars Danny,(sorry to carp and cavil), it was a Gipsy. I lost a spell-check bet once, when I also got it wrong.

Reader123
17th Aug 2016, 15:36
Walter - Getting PoWs to work on sensitive installations such as railways has always struck me as a brave thing to do. Was there any sabotage that you were aware of?

I am struck by the CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (for, effectively, forced labourers in WW2), a copy of which popped up on an email the other day.

https://www.cia.gov/news-information/featured-story-archive/2012-featured-story-archive/CleanedUOSSSimpleSabotage_sm.pdf

Danny42C
17th Aug 2016, 17:38
Walter,
...These were in a shocking state and looked as though they had contained a horde of wild pigs...
An opprtunity for you to set your "humble and submissive" prisoners to work, I would have thought !
...I found a job with the office staff typing...
Never wise to disclose that you have a particular (and useful) skill. Classic case: "Anyone able to play a piano ?"........"Right, come with me, we want you to move the NAAFI piano to Stores !"
...with determination we were able to prise apart the bars of one window, large enough for us to climb out, up the side of the concreted, moat-like surround and merge with some passers-by in the street. We were then soon on our way westwards....
The homing instinct is very strong !
...gave us their beds in a commandeered German home...
EXtract from my Post p.139 #2777:
...What made no sense at all, was that they were also to leave the pilots with us for the rest of the night after they got back after midnight. (They'd only need a 15 cwt truck to pick them all up, and it was only a two-mile trip back to their bashas in Chittagong.....Why ?) And we had no spare accomodation - we'd have to "double-bunk"; there was only one charpoy per head. People would have to sleep on the floor.

To cut a long story short, after a short struggle with my conscience, noblesse oblige-d; my chap could have my de-luxe DIY bed (Mk.2); I would kip on the woven palm matting floor. The bearer made up my bed for the stranger, I found a spare mossie net, wrapped it round me and settled down, trying not to think of the "long-leggity beasties" of the night.

My houseguest came in about 0100, and lit the hurricane lamp. "How did you get on?".........."I gave Akyab a 'jao' - Akyab gave me a 'jao' ". I deduced that there had been an inconclusive exchange of fire, but little more. He was very grateful for the bed, I struggled off to sleep in a warm glow of quixotic nobility (didn't last).

...Those Yankee boys certainly treated us well. We had an orange, cereal with milk, eggs, bacon, white bread and butter and coffee for breakfast. A prisoner's dream of home!..
Not only prisoners !... I still recall our first Canadian meals in 1941 after arriving there from severly rationed Britain.
...the Colonel promised us that we would be on our way home the next day.,,
But this time it was true - after so many vicissitudes !
...I said, "I'm a Flying Officer." "Blimey", he replied, "you nearly made yourself an Air Commodore, didn’t you?"...
Extract from my Post p.133 #2649:
...Now a F/O's rank braid is 5/16 in wide. An Indian braid weaver somewhere made a mistake, and set up his loom for 7/16. They ran off a hundred yards or so before the error was discovered. No use good stuff going to waste. Put it on the market, don't suppose it will make much difference to the customer.

They were right ! Our friend appeared with a pair of these massive stripes on his shoulders. He was mockingly congratulated on his promotion to Air Commodore. His cuffs soon joined the pretty wings in the bin, to general amusement. Luckily he was a resilient character, and endured the ribbing with good grace...
...missed the last tram back, and had to walk all the way...
Ah, those carless days just postwar, when this often happened after you'd said 'goodnight' on her doorstep !

Whew ! - enjoy your leave. Walter - with all that lovely dosh in the bank !:ok:

Danny.

BEagle
17th Aug 2016, 19:50
Getting PoWs to work on sensitive installations such as railways has always struck me as a brave thing to do. Was there any sabotage that you were aware of?

The French Resistance had some clever methods. Destructive techniques such as mixing carborundum grinding paste with grease for axle boxes (I understand that smearing Vaseline missed with grinding paste over speed camera lenses can have a similarly 'interesting' effect when someone tries to wipe it clean...but please don't try it!) were obvious, but the best were non-destructive techniques which the occupiers didn't discover until too late. For example, with typical Teutonic efficiency, all German railway trucks had a manifest and destination notice secured under a wire panel on the outside of the truck. Swapping a few of those around would mean that urgently needed supplies would be sent hundreds of miles in the wrong direction...and it would take a huge number of clerks days to sort out the resulting chaos :E !!

Chugalug2
18th Aug 2016, 11:31
In the great tradition of wandering hither and thither with this greatest of threads, I came across this post on YouTube. It is a talk about the Vultee Aircraft Company, including the Vengeance of course. Yours to dissect with your usual precision, Danny. :ok:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Up2HsAh4PXw

Ripline
18th Aug 2016, 12:36
From the BBC website :-

Pilots' poem read by aviators - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/headlines/37109005)

Inspirational, after all these years.

Ripline

Danny42C
18th Aug 2016, 13:19
Chugalug,

Thanks for the video ! We've been here before - text of my p.366 #7302 copied below for info:

Chugalug,

Reverting to the 8 (IAF) Sqn YouTube, here are some general comments which apply as far as 2.50 into the 6.14 of it.

1. What on Earth has this to do with an "Australian War Memorial FO 2561" ? The material has almost certainly come originally from Bharat Rakshak website: they have a lot about 8 Sqn in it.

2. Where and when was this taken ? There are no white faces, we "pressed men" from the four RAF Sqns don't appear anywhere. My guess is at their last station before we teamed up with them in Chaara, W. Bengal (24.8.43. in my log, although I didn't fly with them (non-op) until 29.11.43 - you'll recall that we were busy on the ground, settling-in, then compass-swinging and belting-up in that month).

It doesn't look anything like Peshawar (had the VV OTU even started up yet ?) Bt-Rk says they were at Paphamau (Allahabad), in Uttar Pradesh. This is approx 500 mi NE from Calcutta, and a further 400 mi NE to Delhi. I have never known such a huge open landing area as appears here, certainly not in W. or E. Bengal (now Bangladesh) or in Burma.

It is certainly all training in these first few minutes, the only bomb (500lb) looks funny (more later), some a/c have 250lb racks underwing but no bombs, (they would have been about 1,000 milles away from the action in any case). Nor are there any 11½ lb (training) bombracks.

The devil is in the detail ! Enough for now ! More soon.

Cheers, Danny...

and #7304:

...Armourer ? We have need of thee !
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
EDIT: This link was Posted on "EZ999" Thread by Chugalug, to whom we all owe our thanks for it.
New readers, this is what we're talking about here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8RqlK1d1_k
D.
------------------------------------------------------

Chugalug,

Now from the general to the particular:

0.21
What are these two armourers doing on the wing ? - all they seem to have is a length of empty cottton ammo belting - and in any case we used spring steel clips, not cotton belts ? (as I know to my cost !)

0.22
At first glance, looks like a single gun, and I thought "0.50" for a moment or two, before realising that it's far too small - of course we're looking side-on at a twin 0.303 (you can just see the flash eliminators on the ends - all our guns had them, but I don't think any of the 0.300s did).

But why is this chap stripping his gun down in situ, instead of taking it to the Armoury and putting it on the bench ? (for surely you had to take the block out first to remove the barrel ?) I should know, but at ITW I only had a obsolete Vickers "K" gun to take to bits, and then try to put together again. I never even saw a Browning, as they were all needed in service.

And in practice we left all that side of the business to our AGs and the Armourers. All we had to worry about was: would it fire when we pressed the button, or not ? We just flew the aeroplane - and that could be trouble enough.

Are there any (ex) Armourers in the House ? Please come in !

0.37
Now we're really confused. This 500lb GP bomb clearly has the tail twin wing "butterfly" on the end (look in the cylindrical "fin" - btw, these sheet metal "click-on" fins came in a strong fibre- board protective container, which in turn became a potential bar stool). They were only put on the bomb itself at the last moment before bombing-up.

But the "butterfly" was the safety device for the tail fuse (on release, the airflow would spin them away off their loose thread and render the fuse "live" by exposing the detonator). Therefore the tail fuse is in this bomb. These little bits of light metal sometimes speared into the lower wing surface or the flaps after release - no problem, but a nuisance to the riggers, who had to dig them out and patch the little shallow holes they left.

Now look at the nose. There should be either a ring-bolt in (for handling in transit). Or, before use, this is removed, the nose fuse goes in and made safe by another loosely screwed-on cap which has angled vanes machined round the rim, this works the same way as the tail, once off the firing pin and the detonator are in business.

So what have we here ? There's no vaned cap - it's just a plug with what looks like a screwdriver slot in it for removal (look at your car battery). So there's no fuse in the nose ! Make sense of that if you can.

You'll all be pleased to know that there is still more on this bomb to come, but this is enough for one Post.

Cheers, Danny.

PS: pzu,
Around teatime daughter came in, said, "Dad", there's a Spitfire just flying overhead".

It so happened that a few seconds earlier something very fast and powerful had come out of the N. York Moors LL area, and was climbing northbound in reheat, so that Danny Mansion was shaking. (This used to happen a lot, but less frequently in recent days).

"Rubbish", said Daddy, "that's no Spitfire ! - that's a chap in a jet, giving it the welly".

Ah, well. You can't win 'em all (we don't take the Gazette).
Thanks for the "Head-Up" just the same !
D....


[/QUOTE]
Will have another look now to see if I can find owt else.

Danny.

Chugalug2
18th Aug 2016, 13:27
Danny, Mea Culpa! I stupidly posted the same link as on the VV thread instead of the one of the Vultee presentation. Duly amended. Backs grovelingly towards door and beats hasty retreat...

Danny42C
18th Aug 2016, 16:00
Chugalug,

Not to worry ! Could happen to anyone ! (me for instance). Ego te absolvo... Go in peace, my son.

Danny.

Fareastdriver
18th Aug 2016, 16:17
I apologise, I thought Walter 603 had finished. However I will continue.


On the Monday there was a strange atmosphere in the crew room. I was then summoned to the Sqn. Cdr.’s office and grilled about my instructor. He was a diving enthusiast and his car and his clothes had been found by a Welsh beach but there were no signs of him or his kit. “Was he behaving normally?” “I think so, I hardly knew him.” “Do you think he had suicidal tendencies?” “I don’t think so. I didn’t think my flying was that bad.” A few other questions and then I started again with another instructor.

Things, as always, get better as time went on and then, in preparation for your solo flying there comes Engine Off Landings.

EOLs are where one lands the aircraft without the benefit of power much in the same way as a glide approach and land in a fixed wing except that it is a lot more sudden.

When the power ceases to a rotor in flight it slows down; very rapidly. In a short time it will decay so much that it will cease to generate lift and it, plus everything attached to it, will go ballistic. However, at minimum, i.e. flat pitch, it will autorotate much in the same way as a sycamore leaf autorotates from a tree with a comparatively slow rate of descent. To enable this to happen if one has an engine failure in a helicopter the first and most important thing to do is lower the lever to the bottom to ensure that you maintain Rrpm. You will then descend at a reasonable rate of descent and the inertia in the rotor will give you sufficient energy to be able to raise the collective lever and cushion the landing to a gentle touchdown at the final stage. Practise EOLS are done on the airfield as if something goes wrong the fire engines and blood wagons are so much more convenient.

As you cross the airfield boundary one closes the throttle. Even though one is ready the Rrpm dies off somewhat but lowering the lever and flaring the aircraft back to 60 knots recovers it. As the descent starts the Rrpm will start to increase so two notches on the collective indicator will hold it nicely. It would be nice to think that one could then proceed with the practice and gently put it on the ground; but not with the Sycamore.

As I mentioned before raising the lever has a cam that opens the throttle. To allow this to happen would negate the whole practise because the engine would burst into life on the touchdown. It follows that the engine has to be shut down. Before this happens the engine must be run at 1,200 rpm to even the cylinder temperatures so this is done for a few seconds before the slow running cut-out is pulled. It is then very quiet; except for the swish of the rotor blades around you.

At about 100 feet one flares again and holds it until the forward speed is Zero and the rate of descent is minimal. It then descends vertically and as the ground starts to swallow you up one raises the lever to its full extent to cushion to a gentle touchdown. There is, however, one precaution to take.
The under carriage on the Sycamore is hinged laterally and there is no fore and aft movement. Should one land with no forward speed the wheels will splay outwards and at the best roll off the tyres. At worst only one leg will splay and the aircraft will lurch to one side with a decaying rotor with little or no control over it. Therefore it is essential to put a little bit of forward speed on just before touchdown.
I mentioned the performance with the droop stops before shutdown. With the engine shut down there are no getouts after an EOL so the first priority is to get the engine started again before the rotor gets anywhere near stopping. Once that is done one can relax.

I will now confess to a sin so that when I reach the Pearly Gates St. Peter can’t nail me for anything.

Solo engine offs on the Sycamore were not allowed to be undertaken by students so all the engine off landings were dual. It was a very critical manoeuvre and so the instructor would be closely monitoring it to the extent that his hands would be lightly touching the controls. I will admit that I never did an engine off landing in a Sycamore. The instructor was monitoring so closely that I would relax and let him do it for me and then he would congratulate me for doing a good one.

There; that’s off my chest.

There was a take off technique that I believe is unique to the Sycamore known as the Jump Take Off. This would be used when there was insufficient power for it to hover (anytime). The procedure was to sit on the ground and wind the Rrpm to max permissible. (260?) The lever would be raised and the throttle opened to maximum. This would cause the aircraft to ‘jump’ into the air but as there was insufficient power to hover the Rrpm would start to decay. When airborne one would ease the aircraft forward in such a way that transitional lift would kick in and then you could use the airspeed to keep the aircraft airborne whilst you recovered the engine and Rrpm.
Two weeks and eight hours dual later I was considered a suitable risk to be sent off by myself. The usual diet of circuits, navexs and practice autorotations. Then came the instrument flying stage.

The big difference between instrument flying in a fixed wing aircraft and a helicopter is that the former is inherently stable inasmuch as it will stay on a trimmed path through the void without too much divergence if you leave it by itself. Helicopters are the opposite. Without electronic stabilising the will very rapidly develop suicidal tendencies and send itself, and you, to oblivion. To avoid this it must be flown with a constant state of awareness and anticipation. When one flies straight and level every twitch from the ideal must be instantly corrected before it becomes untidy and progressively more difficult to correct. Just to make things even more difficult they are slower and so therefore have greater penalties of drift and groundspeed when flying procedures. With practice one can fly comfortably within Green Card limits but one has to work at it. The Sycamore had the old Blue/Amber instrument practice system. This is where the forward cockpit windows were screened with amber transparencies. The pilot practising wore blue goggles. Blue and amber make black so he could not see outside but could read the instruments whereas the safety pilot could see the rest of the World in amber.

One of the biggest differences is the Instrument Take Off.

On fixed wing it was a case of lining up, noting the runway heading, opening the throttle and maintaining that heading come what may until there was sufficient airspeed to get airborne. One would be blissfully ignorant of the mainwheels whizzing by the drainage gravel at the side of the runway by a few inches. The military helicopter, not the civil procedure, was to point the aircraft into wind and come to the hover. You would then raise the lever and climb vertically into the air. Your eyes would be fixed on the Artificial Horizon so as to ensure the aircraft climbs in the hover attitude with the heading being maintained with the pedals. When the altimeter starts moving the attitude is moved to 10 degrees nose down and one waits. There will be a pause with only the altimeter feebly struggling around the dial and then there will be the shake and rattle & roll of transitional lift. This is a good sign, things are going well. Almost immediately the ASI will start to indicate and in no time you are in a position to actually control what the aircraft is doing.

There was little IF on the Sycamore, just two forty minute trips both incorporating a GCA at Sleap. There was little point because any serious IF was to be flown on the Whirlwind Mk10.

Danny42C
18th Aug 2016, 18:00
Fareastdriver,

Very interesting ! All you say confirms my belief the helicopters are fundamentally "Agin' Nature", and I'm very glad that I had nothing to do with them. But, fair's fair, every man to his own taste, funny old world if we were all alike, I suppose.

And had not the whims of the Most High chosen you for this task, we should have lost all those wonderful stories you have written here about your times in the land where all foreigners are considered devils, they have 100-year old eggs, and all the Susie Wongs wear the cheong-sam !

Fareastdriver
18th Aug 2016, 18:08
and all the Susie Wongs wear the cheong-sam !

It was all worth it just for that!

John Eacott
18th Aug 2016, 18:09
I apologise, I thought Walter 603 had finished. However I will continue.

FED, Dad has a few more to go but to date all his posts have been from the memoirs that he put together for us when he got his first computer. There are many more that he sometimes recalls when we're having a bit of a chat, not least those awful memories that are naturally suppressed. He could be drawn out to comment here if enough interest were shown, I'm sure.

ps as a helicopter driver I am with you when standing above the comments from those who believe in running up and down runways to get airborne :p

Stanwell
18th Aug 2016, 18:18
Fareastdriver,
A most fascinating and valuable post.
Thank you so much.

sycamore
18th Aug 2016, 20:37
Ahhhhh,but he hasn`t got to ground resonnnnannnce yet......!

Walter603
19th Aug 2016, 07:49
On Thursday afternoon, 3rd May, we were flown from Brussels through dirty weather to England. At last after 3 years came that longed-for moment when I could see the "white cliffs of Dover" over the Channel. All noses were glued to the windows. We landed at Dunsfold in Surrey and were met by motherly W.V.S. (Women's Voluntary Service) women and nurses and conducted to a beautifully decorated hangar where we had tea, sandwiches and biscuits. Flash left me here, en route for Brighton with the South African contingent. I was sent to London with a Corporal as escort "in case I was scared by the traffic". We went to the residential Endleigh Hotel near Euston and I was taken in charge by a dear old Squadron Leader who fixed me up with tea - poached eggs on toast - a hot bath and a room.

My bad news started from then. After attempting to 'phone home I was unsuccessful, being informed that the number was on a "spare line", a piece of information that puzzled me and could not be explained by the telephone operator. Next morning, still being impatient to speak to my Mum or Dad, I telephoned the Lebus furniture factory (my father's work) and was told that my Dad hadn't been to work for 3 months, but the operator said she would try to get me Dad's new address. A nasty sinking feeling overcame me, and I asked if everything was all right. The operator was rather upset. She told me that "Dad and your sister are O.K. but I don't want to tell you any more”

Further enquiry by telephone to Chingford Police Station confirmed the grim news that my mother had been killed by a V2 rocket. It happened on 1st February, a Thursday, at 2.30p.m. If the damned thing had fallen on any other weekday, my mother would have been working at her job in the shop. How I wished that I could go back then and there to settle accounts with one or two of my German acquaintances.

Danny42C
19th Aug 2016, 08:51
Walter,

What can I say ?...... There is nothing I can say.

Danny,

olympus
19th Aug 2016, 12:20
On the Monday there was a strange atmosphere in the crew room. I was then summoned to the Sqn. Cdr.’s office and grilled about my instructor. He was a diving enthusiast and his car and his clothes had been found by a Welsh beach but there were no signs of him or his kit. “Was he behaving normally?” “I think so, I hardly knew him.” “Do you think he had suicidal tendencies?” “I don’t think so. I didn’t think my flying was that bad.” A few other questions and then I started again with another instructor.

Would this instructor be Terry Peet, whose story is comprehensively told in 'Renegade Hero'? (Pen & Sword ISBN 9781848845305)

Chugalug2
19th Aug 2016, 13:05
Walter, like Danny I am shocked by the sudden turn of events that your home coming has revealed. Here is the reality of war, and not movie-land's happy ending of reunion with one's loved ones after much travail and suffering. I suspect that this very sad experience was far from unique amongst returning POWs. With very restricted news from home anyway, and NoK not wishing to add further to the everyday trials of those behind the barbed wire, the truth was only fully revealed following their return.

Even those who had survived the home front could have been changed by the war in the meantime, ditto those returning from camps or overseas campaigns. For many families the war went on for decades after August '45, for some it still does....

My sincere condolences, Walter.

MPN11
19th Aug 2016, 14:10
Thanks for sharing that sad ending, Walter. It is a reminder of how the general public were also playing 'the lottery of life', albeit with few defence mechanisms where the V1/V2 were concerned. My grandmother was a couple of hundred yards from the UK's first V2 arrival.

Danny42C
19th Aug 2016, 14:37
There was only one redeeming feature of the V2s by all accounts - they arrived silently, (supersonically), so there was not the agonising ten or fifteen seconds' wait between the V1's engine stopping and the bang, when no one in the vicinity knew where it was going to land.

Or so I read. I was in a far away place with a queer sounding name at the time.

Danny.

Fareastdriver
19th Aug 2016, 15:43
My great grandmother got the last but one V2 in her back garden. It was about 80 yards from impact to their kitchen. Apparently the warhead didn't detonate but the impact shook out the windows and most of the roof off. Years later when I used to visit as a kid there were still bits lying about, noticeably a part of the combustion chamber. There was a rumour going around the family that the warhead was too far down to recover and it is still there.

I bet the people who flashed out about £550,000 for the property a couple of years ago don't know that.

Fareastdriver
19th Aug 2016, 18:15
Would this instructor be Terry Peet

That's the one. He contributed to PPRuNe a few times but I gather he died nearly a year ago.

Fareastdriver
19th Aug 2016, 18:18
It is, generally speaking, not a good idea to fly in the dark with a single-engined helicopter. They have a close affinity with birds and they avoid it too. However it has to be done and the Sycamore’s characteristics make it essential that as little is done as possible. The exercises were confined to the airfield circuit and the aircraft were fitted with Schermulies. These were parachute flares that could be fired electrically to illuminate what was to become the scene of your accident. Having been suitably briefed the CFI (Syc), working on the basis that never send anybody to do what you are afraid to do yourself, took me on my dual trip.

It was not very pleasant. The visibility was awful but fortunately the circuit pattern allowed us to use a well lit prison as a final approach fix. The instrument lighting was below par and it was all very difficult. One dual and one solo flight was the ration so after I had managed to struggle around to a satisfactory standard I was sent off solo.

It was the same on the solo flight. Lousy vis, awful lighting and at one stage I felt like firing off the flares and chucking in this helicopter business. However, I persevered and after the three circuits I returned to dispersal to hand the aircraft over to another solo student.

Nowadays when there is a running change on a single pilot helicopter the new pilot brings someone along with him to hold the controls whilst the departing and arriving pilot change seats. Then it was slightly different.

The new pilot would be cleared to the cockpit and the door would be opened. He would then hold the cyclic stick steady whilst the existing pilot would undo his straps, slide his backside over the centre console and plant himself in the left hand seat. Then he would hold the controls whilst the new pilot strapped in.

We achieved this with no disasters so I stepped out of the left hand door and started to take off my helmet. There was a bang on my nose. I lifted my dark blue high altitude visor and I could see for ruddy miles.

Flash forward twenty years: I am picking up one of two company S76As from Antwerp. We fly them from the docks to Antwerp airfield for fuel, flight plans etc..
My one is an early model with four automobile doors with American IFR instrumentation. The ILS/VORs were different, apparently unserviceable and there was a blanking panel on the consol where the Loran should have been. Also, being an early version, the centre consol was smaller and more deeply slanted than current ones. It was decided that we would fly as a pair with me as No 2 so we departed Antwerp for Gatwick for customs.

Wheels up, fags out, was my standard so out came the Bensons and I lit up. There then came a problem as where to park the cigarettes and lighter. The normal place at the rear of the consol was different so there was no room but just in front of the Loran blanking plate there was a convenient step which was ideal. I placed them there and continued. Half an hour later it was time to light up again. The fags were there but the lighter wasn’t. I felt with my fingers and they revealed a void under the front of the plate. Underneath the plate was the main wiring harness that controlled all the gizmos; like autopilot, engine beepers and fuel pumps. There was however, a solution.

We used to have a small four bladed miniature screwdriver disc for undoing the Zues fasteners on the gearbox canopy during our pre-flight. I could now undo the fasteners and lift the plate and there was my lighter resting on a big bunch of cables. Once rescued, I replaced the plate vowing to use another resting place. That was when my maps migrated off the left hand seat and slid down between the door and the seat.

I now had no Loran, two dodgy VORs and no maps heading towards the London Control Area. This is where my Sycamore training resurrected itself.

I moved out to about four rotor spans; unstrapped; I didn’t need any body to hold the stick as the autopilot was good at that. With a practised movement I swung my back onto the coaming, lifted my feet into the port footwell and slid into the seat. I recovered my maps and reversed the operation to the correct seat. The aircraft, somewhat terrified, didn’t budge from the formation position. The weather was socking in at Gatwick so we got clearance to do a formation ILS on the Westerly runway. We went into cloud at 1,500ft and came out at about 700ft. Formation let downs and PARs were standard practice when I went through training; I don’t know whether it is now.

After forty or so hours on the Sycamore we moved to the advanced phase on the Whirlwind Mk10 but before that I must mention another characteristic; this was its tendency for Ground Resonance.

Non rotary people have heard about it and it was a big problem in the early days. As helicopters have multiple blades and associated engineering rotating in sympathy so out-of-balance or out-of-trim forces can be amplified especially if a harmonic builds up between two or more components, especially the undercarriage.. The Sycamore was designed just after the WW II so this phenomenon was not understood, the result being that it was designed with a main rotor with three blades, a tail rotor with three blades, resting on an undercarriage with three wheels. It was a perfect combination for ground resonance and did it ever! Talk about it and it went into it. Think about it and you could feel it tremble and if they were discussing it in the crew room and you were running outside you had no chance at all. It would start a slow shake which would build up in intensity until it started to get uncomfortable. The instant response is ideally to lift into the hover so the undercarriage is taken out of the circle. Should you not be able to get airborne then a rapid shut down may let you get away with it. Should it not be prevented and allowed to carry on it will increase in intensity to the point where the aircraft will effectively self-disassemble around you so that you can wade out of the wreckage.

A new basic helicopter course replaced us on graduation to the Whirlwind. They had two self-destructs in a fortnight through ground resonance and as the Sycamore had little in common with the rest of the Air Force’s equipment the decision was then made to cease using it. The Bell Agusta Sioux, (Supercharged Bell 47) which were already on the base for instructor training was now thr primary trainer.

So the best, (if you could fly a Sycamore you could fly ANYTHING) trainer the RAF ever had was relegated to communication duties.

MPN11
19th Aug 2016, 18:39
Fareastdriver ... your dissertations all tell me that the RN made the right choice in not sending me off to be HSP :)

But ... I have still, over all the years, followed various topics and conversations [here and elsewhere] that reinforced Their Lordship's wisdom: ground resonance being one of them! :D

John Eacott
20th Aug 2016, 12:32
Thanks for sharing that sad ending, Walter.

It's still not the end!

Dad has these two images, although we're not too sure that the second one is of his old home, where he was born: 8 York Road, Chingford E4. After the V2 hit :sad:

http://www.eacott.com.au/gallery/d/7687-2/Scan+2016-8-20+0009-1.jpg

http://www.eacott.com.au/gallery/d/7690-2/Scan+2016-8-20+0009-2.jpg

The devastation from this terror weapon (which is a fair description, being aimed at civilian targets) is quite obvious.

Danny42C
20th Aug 2016, 13:27
John,

What devastation ! I believe the civil authorities thought that a massive gas leak was responsible for the first of these attacks, for it had come out of the blue with no sound.

It is sobering to think that, had it not been for the Peenemunde raid, they would have started far earlier and caused thousands more casualties. In the end, it was only when the Allied advance overran the launch sites that they ceased. Hitler's most effective "Revenge Weapon" was just a bit too late !

But in war that is fatal.

Danny.

Chugalug2
20th Aug 2016, 13:38
A terrible scene of devastation in those two pictures, John. Merely looking at them from an uniformed standpoint they do seem to match, ie taken of the LHS and RHS of the point of impact. Indeed the sloping blast damage to the left hand building is almost reflected exactly in that of the right hand building. Also notable the seemingly minor damage to the line of houses behind the rubble (no doubt their windows were blown in but the roofs appear to be intact).

Presumably this was typical of a V2 impact. Total ground level devastation within the blast radius which was however sharply coned by the supersonic speed of impact, but would appreciate input from those better equipped than I.

Quite agree about it being terrifying. I believe that the "V" of the V weapons stood for "Vergeltungswaffen", or retaliatory weapons. Retaliation for what though? I suspect that it alludes to the so called "Terror Bombing" of Germany by the RAF and USAAF. Being a civilian in WWII, especially of a city or large town, put you in the front line no matter if you were German, British, or any other inhabitant of "half a hundred" such targets.

Was there a policy of "misinformation" re the impact locations for the V2's as there was for the V1's? If so was it as effective? Again, all contributions gratefully received...

Danny42C
20th Aug 2016, 16:56
Chugalug,

Hard to remember, but I seem to recall that one of Hitler's "turned " agents was made to pass back reports that the bomb had actually fallen in south London, not north as widely reported in the Press.

Aha ! thought German Intellingence - these crafty Englander, they want us to lower our sights a trifle, so as to move the aiming point south into open country. But we can see through that - we'll move it north and plant it in the city centre - so there !

With the result.........:ok:

(All hearsay). Danny.

Walter603
21st Aug 2016, 04:21
Danny, Chugalug, MPN11, Fareastdriver, et al.

Thanks mates for your comments and sympathy. I still feel the emotional pain after all these years of what happened to me and my family in those dreadful days. Never did I dream that my dear young Mum (age 42) would be a war victim on the brink of my return from Germany. Curiously she lost a brother in WW1. Alexander Middleton was a Scottish soldier captured in 1917 and died in hospital as a PoW.

Another posting or two and I'll be finished.

Walter.

Danny42C
21st Aug 2016, 07:49
Walter,
...Another posting or two and I'll be finished....
Don't you believe it, mate !

Danny.

Warmtoast
21st Aug 2016, 11:05
John Eacott

Re. 8 York Road, Chingford

Google Earth shows 8 York Road here:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/8+York+Rd,+London+E4+8QW/@51.6116507,-0.0233089,153m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x48761e12c51e724d:0xe7cea1ea84c1bdf f!8m2!3d51.6117087!4d-0.022656?hl=en-GB

Click and drag the yellow "Browse Street View" icon (bottom right) to York road for a close-up as it is in 2016.

WT

Fareastdriver
21st Aug 2016, 12:56
They didn't hang about rebuilding it. You select History and go back to 12/45 and the replacements are already there.

Fareastdriver
21st Aug 2016, 14:08
The Whirlwind 10 was a modified licence version of the American Sikorsky S55. A different control system with the fixed and rotating star I have mentioned earlier. It had hydraulic assistance at IIRC 1,200 psi which cancelled out the feedback from the main rotor completely. The fuselage was on two levels with the pilot’s seat elevated above the main cabin which was a clear box-like structure. It was designed to carry Grunts around in minimal, if any at all, comfort. To get into the cockpit though a large window one had to climb up the side of the aeroplane and sit there, master of all he surveyed. In front of him instead of a mighty radial engine of previous models he had a Gnome gas turbine, a licence built version of the GE T58 which although capable of producing 1,000 horsepower was restricted to about 750 hp so the transmission could cope. The cockpit instruments were electric; real Artificial Horizons and G4 compasses. On the consol an HP cock and a Speed Select Lever. This, through a computer, selected the rotor speed and held it without the pilot having to control the engine with a throttle. Beside was a large plunger. Should the computer fail then pulling this disconnected it from the engine throttle actuator and control of the engine was then in the pilot’s hands by means of a twist grip on the collective. There was no cam, it was raw throttle.

A press of the starter button and the engine whined into life, no clutches, it had a free turbine. At the rotor speed increases then the hydraulics, driven by the gearbox, come on line and with that one can feel that there is almost no resistance on the cyclic stick, the hydraulics have overcome all the rotating forces. Once everything is up and running a few checks to make sure the secondary hydraulics take over if the primaries are switched off and we are ready to go.

We lift into the hover. Left pedal to counteract the torque as the rotor goes the American way. It sits there in the hover, effortlessly. There is no feedback, hardly any feel, a slight movement of the palm controls any meandering that it dreams up. One learns to rest ones wrist on their knee and use it as a datum for the current manoeuvre. A totally different flight profile requires only inches of repositioning. Spot turns require more effort from the legs because the tail rotor is still a manual version. Compared to the Sycamore it was like stepping into a different world! Ground Resonance, with three Main blades, two Tail blades and four undercarriage legs was virtually unknown.

The normal exercises before the solo stage. EOLs were far simpler. Pull the Speed Select Lever and the engine backed off to Flight Idle; autorotate, a comparatively smooth flare and easy touchdown, anything between 0 and 15 knots. I was beginning to like this; there was a bond developing between me and the aircraft. Three trips, two and a half hours and I was off on my own.

On my third solo flight I was returning from Chetwynd, out relief landing ground at 500 ft. to return to the Tern Hill circuit. A glow on the panel; it was the Engine Fire Warning Light! Before I had time to check the Ts & Ps smoke started rising through the footwell which confirmed that there was a fire. Whirlwinds are made of magnesium and burn pretty well so there was no spare time. Down with the lever, HP cock and fuel pumps off, hit the fire button and Mayday.

There then arises the problem of where to land it and I was downwind. I turned in autorotation into wind and went for a small field that had dragged itself through the woods to place itself in front of me. My flare worked out fine and I landed with about five knots on. We were at the Brakes On phase in Standards so I skidded safely to a halt. To my relief there was no conflagration around me so I vaulted down to the ground.

It’s very lonely when you suddenly arrive in the middle of nowhere with, or without, a sick aeroplane. A quick inspection of the engine compartment, lots of steam and crackling noises but no fire anymore. A commotion from the sky as a Sycamore found me and landed alongside. They checked that everything was OK and then there was a protracted period whilst they found a way where they could get out of the field again.

Forty five minutes; FORTY FIVE MINUTES and a Whirlwind arrived with the guard who were going to look after the aircraft overnight. I was flown back and as it was late I was told to go home and sort the paperwork out tomorrow.

The problem wasn’t a fire as such; it was a split in the annular combustion chamber. The next afternoon I went in the back of a Whirlwind with an instructor to my aircraft. They had finished the engine change so we did the check runs and then I flew it back to Tern Hill.

Not only was it an advanced helicopter course but it was also the OCU because there were four squadrons of Whirlwinds in the Far East, another two SAR squadrons in the UK plus several small flights scattered around the world from Hong Kong to British Guiana. To this end we were trained in the whole spectrum of trooping, underslung loads and at the end we went to RAF Valley for the Mountain Flying and SAR element.

Mountains are beautiful to look at but they can hide a brooding evil when you fly amongst them. The natural movement of air around produces varying air flows that may bear no relation to the general wind around you. One is taught to look at a valley or ridge and visualise how it is going to affect you. For example the wind blowing over a ridge will have a marked upward flow on the upwind side but a rapidly descending airflow in the lee. Ignoring this and carrying out a normal approach path to the top of the ridge can lead you into the down flow and if strong enough it will exceed the helicopters rate of climb so you will fall short. Knowing the score one does a far steeper approach to stay in the updrafting air. One learns to read the possible severe turbulence that can be set up in the lee of mountains. Ignorance of these conditions can lead to disaster; for example BA911 which was torn apart by the turbulence around Mt. Fuji.

https://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1967/1967%20-%201067.PDF

Whilst I was at Valley Ian Smith declared UDI. I had been there three months previously on my Domcol leave so I knew it was boiling up. A sudden closing of a short friendship with two RRAF trainees doing a Hunter course as they were dispatched back to Salisbury.

On with the immersion suits and on to sea winching. You were now being assessed not only by your instructor but hairy old experienced winch operators and winchmen; a far more terrifying prospect. Hovering over land is fairly straightforward, it’s little more than flying a hot formation on a blade of grass but over the sea the surface keeps moving and the dinghy or whatever isn’t. There are loads of individual ways to maintain a 15 ft. hover over the sea; sometimes just telling the aircraft to keep still works as well as any. They were quite pleased with me and the suggestion that I would be suited for an SAR squadron was mooted.

Another part of the course was the mysteries of the Decca Navigation System, a hyperbolic system using low frequency phase comparison. There were three; red, green and purple indicators that were checked against a master. You Decca map had similar coloured lines printed on it and working out what colour and number lane you were on enabled one to get a cross cut with two with the third as confirmation. On the coaming was mounted a roller map with a pen which by a combination of the receiver rolling the map back and forth and shuffling the pen from side to side indicated where you were. The map itself was distorted as the curved line of a normal map had to be straightened out for the benefit of the mechanics. You could do a Decca instrument approach on the airfield down to 50 ft and within ten yards of the cross which was the aiming point.

When we returned to Tern Hill our postings were awaiting us. Good bye, thoughts of SAR, hello North Borneo with one year unaccompanied to boot. Just the job when you have been recently married. It was a foretaste of what was to come as I was about to lead the nomadic life of a military and then a civil helicopter pilot.

Other planning also fell apart. After my Final Handling test I was earmarked to return to Tern Hill for instructor training after my year in Borneo. That was scuppered because Confrontation ended early and the whole squadron came back to the UK in one piece. By then I had far more interesting plans than to join the training mill.

In January 1966 I arrived in Labuan to start a totally different form of flying that I had ever considered doing when I signed the dotted line in Salisbury six years earlier.

That's all for now.

CharlieJuliet
21st Aug 2016, 19:39
Interesting post. I was holding at Manby on Varsities when UDI was declared and I was invited into the boss's office and asked where my loyalties lay. I replied that as I came from Kenya, which was a fair distance from Southern Rhodesia, I had no interest in UDI. However, I could have been in the RRAF as when I left school I applied to from Nairobi to the RRAF, the RN(FAA), and the RAF . Only the RAF replied!!!

Stanwell
21st Aug 2016, 21:21
Yet another gem. Thank you, FED.
Your mention of flying around mountains particularly caught my eye.
I lost a friend back in 2001 who, on a (solo) training navigational flight in his Bell 47, 'unexpectedly' encountered a mountain wave.
An expensive lesson.

Fareastdriver
22nd Aug 2016, 09:43
I replied that as I came from Kenya, which was a fair distance from Southern Rhodesia

I am sure that they called you in because of your service number. Correct me if I am wrong but if you were attested in Nairobi you would have had a seven figure number beginning with 50. We stroppy rebels further south had 52.

Wander00
22nd Aug 2016, 12:55
One of out Towers course was a Rhodesian, he was woken at 0300 and offered the choice, he stayed. My valley QFI, also a Rhodesian, elected to go back home a year or so later, infuriated that sanctions meant his 70+ years Mother had to ride a motor scooter because she could not get enough fuel for the car

Buster11
22nd Aug 2016, 14:21
Correct me if I am wrong but if you were attested in Nairobi you would have had a seven figure number beginning with 50.

I had a 50***** number and was told it was because I was ex-CCF; Sadly I've never been to Nairobi.

binbrook
22nd Aug 2016, 14:47
Opportunity for a new Thread perhaps - what your service number told those in the know about your method of entry? Mine was 254xxxx which I believe was NS, and a surviving brush in the house carries 266xxxx. At the time 607xxx was the Towers.

Wander00
22nd Aug 2016, 14:54
Towers "608" in my day, I thought "607" was RAF Technical College, ie Henlow.

Fareastdriver
22nd Aug 2016, 15:09
When Danny joined everybody knew each other; didn't need numbers.

Wander00
22nd Aug 2016, 16:04
FED - thought that was RN officers

Danny42C
22nd Aug 2016, 16:25
That was when Pontius was a Pilot - and we had "wooden aeroplanes and iron men !"

Whereas today.............

MPN11
22nd Aug 2016, 17:06
Direct Entry was, inter alia, 423**** for DE aircrew and 433**** for DE GD Ground.

I'm sure we've been here before!

Buster11
22nd Aug 2016, 17:39
This is the final bit of my btw stuff, with my thanks to the ever-tolerant mods.


Although there were Dutch and Free French squadrons based at RAF Hartfordbridge later in the War, I can only recall meeting British personnel on the airfield. Seeing that I was fascinated by the aircraft there, they often helped me into cockpits and I have a vivid memory of the long belts of .50 calibre machine gun ammunition running in tracks along the inside of the fuselage of a Mitchell in which I sat; the cockpit of a Mosquito into which I climbed seemed pretty cramped, even to a nine year old. Bostons were regulars too, and later on Warwicks, equipped with air-sea rescue lifeboats slung under the fuselage. Other special excitement came when I was lifted up to look into the waist gunner’s window of a B-17 Flying Fortress and when I noticed a Liberator fitted with an anti-submarine Leigh light under one wing. Stirlings and Lancasters visited and there were various USAAF Mustangs, Thunderbolts and Cessna Cranes and Bobcats. On being allowed into a troop-carrying C-47 Dakota I remember being amazed at the sight of piles of comics on the seats along the fuselage sides, and realising that this was the preferred reading matter of grown-up soldiers, or at least American ones. For me I was usually buried in borrowed copies of Aeromodeller or Aircraft of the Fighting Powers and occasionally I managed to acquire the odd copy of the official publication Aircraft Recognition, which was supplied to the forces. When I won a prize for English at school in about 1942 I can remember my disappointment at getting a copy of Peter Pan; what I really wanted was R.A. Saville-Sneath’s Penguin book, Aircraft Recognition, Part 1!

The A30 ran through Blackbushe and when aircraft needed to taxi from the dispersal areas on the opposite side of the road from the airfield, traffic was stopped; waiting at the front of the queue, we could feel the prop wash of the bombers as they passed a few feet away. On one visit there were troops guarding an area of woods on the Hartley Wintney side of the airfield and I was shooed away from a large crater with wisps of smoke where a Boston had crashed just short of the runway. With Farnborough a few miles away there were a lot of strange aircraft flying around; I was a bit surprised once to see an He. 177, but the first jet-propelled one I saw, a Meteor, was another milestone.

In 1944 we had a summer holiday at Cringleford near Norwich and during the train journey there the corridor was packed with US 8th Air Force men; I remember looking up at the ‘winged eight-ball’ shoulder patches and even then trying to imagine what these people had been doing a few hours before and would be doing again a few hours later. While on top of the steps of a playground slide (no ‘child safe’ soft rubber matting to insulate slide users from the reality of gravity in those days!) a Liberator flew over very low, trailing smoke and with flaps and undercarriage down, probably hoping to make it safely into Horsham St. Faith.

In June 1944 a telegram arrived stating “House bombed. Uninhabitable”. In 1940 my mother and I had moved from West Wickham, near Bromley, to the cottage where we spent the War in Hampshire, after renting our own house to a couple working in London. A V-1 had landed about 50 yards away, killing the occupants of a parked fire tender and levelling several houses. Our own ended up roofless and windowless; a large mirror on the opposite wall facing the window still bears several chips made by the window glass hitting it. When we returned after the War I used to play on what was then waste land where most of the damage occurred and the tailpipe of the V-1’s pulse jet was still lying there.

The same year, walking home from school, I saw huge formations of Horsa and Hadrian gliders, towed by Dakotas and Albemarles and Stirlings; they stretched almost from one horizon to the other. Whether they were going to Arnhem, the Rhine crossing or indeed D-Day I don’t now remember.

The radio played a major part in our lives. As well as the BBC, I listened to William Joyce (‘Lord Haw-Haw) broadcasting propaganda from Germany and remember the distinctive gloating drawl in which he pronounced “gross registered tons” when reporting the day’s tonnage of Allied ships sunk by U-boats. Though my mother and I enjoyed classical music, I did occasionally listen to Glenn Miller, probably on AFN, and the Home Service, or more likely the Light Programme, played songs like Johnny’s Got a Zero and Coming Home on a Wing and a Prayer. I was never an ITMA fan, but Much Binding featured in our listening, and there were separate comedy programmes for the Army, Navy and Air Force, as well as the Johhny Cannuck Review when Canadian troops arrived. Tuning the radio dial to all sorts of foreign language stations brought in the dum-dum-dum-DUM call sign of the BBC’s broadcasts to occupied Europe and with my schoolboy French I tried to puzzle out why mysterious messages that apparently had nothing to do with the War were sometimes being transmitted and repeated. Towards the end of the War news on the Home Service had more and more details of Soviet advances and the names of generals like Koniev, Zhukov, Rokosovsky and Timoshenko became familiar; stirring Soviet tunes like The Song of the Plains, sung by the Red Army Choir, used to follow these news broadcasts.

Eventually my father returned from Stalag Luft III. When I showed him my latest laboriously carved 1/72nd ‘solid’, he seemed less than enthusiastic; it was a Ju.88, but he did give me a Luftwaffe circular navigation computer, and several maps, which I still have, presumably liberated from Halle airfield from which the USAAF flew him home to Cosford.

Danny42C
22nd Aug 2016, 18:25
TO ALL ON PPRuNe

My wife died peacefully this evening. You will not hear from me for some time.

Danny42C.

Fareastdriver
22nd Aug 2016, 18:31
Oh God! I'm sorry, Danny

MPN11
22nd Aug 2016, 18:48
Repeating what I said in another Thread ...

Oh God ... so sorry, Danny.

My thoughts are with you, and thanks for letting us know in the midst of that.

ricardian
22nd Aug 2016, 18:58
I am SO sorry to hear your sad news Danny. My thoughts are with you

Wander00
22nd Aug 2016, 19:14
Danny, I am sure we all join in sending you our most sincere condolences on the death of your wife, and we will all be thinking of you

MPN11
22nd Aug 2016, 19:18
OK, gentlemen. I've had a Calvados or two, but ...

... I'm going to stick my neck out a long way now.

Mrs Danny has clearly had a long life in the company of an amazing gentleman. So perhaps we should raise a glass to her, and mark her departure to pastures new with a raised glass? And at the same time raise [another] to Danny, who has informed and entertained here for so long, and has suffered a dreadful loss?

It's the mark of the man that he posted this sad news on all 3 [AL1 = 4] of his active Threads ... who else would think of doing that, at a time like this?

Many of us have lost 'mates' along the way, so perhaps we should apply that upper lip stiffener and say "Bugger", give Danny a cyber-hug, take a deep breath and ... Carry On.

God Bless, Danny ... and cheers from here. My eyes are wet.

Keeffro
22nd Aug 2016, 19:26
Elegantly put.

Ian Burgess-Barber
22nd Aug 2016, 19:43
Danny is of Irish stock. I would wish to offer my condolences as they would put it around here - "I am sorry for your trouble - but, it comes to every door"- it might seem inelegant to a non-Irish audience, but it is sincerely meant.
RIP Mrs D.
Strength to you Danny.

Ian BB

Brian 48nav
22nd Aug 2016, 19:47
Our thoughts are with you at this very sad time.

B48N and Mrs B48N

MPN11

Heartfelt sentiments eloquently put.

Buster11
22nd Aug 2016, 19:58
Danny, I can only echo MPN's thoughts and assure you that you are in the thoughts and have the sympathies of your fellow-PPRuNers at this very sad time. My deepest condolences to you.
B11

Taphappy
22nd Aug 2016, 20:29
Danny, My thoughts are with you at this sad time. May she rest in peace.

NutLoose
22nd Aug 2016, 20:36
Danny,

At this time words mean nothing, but just let me say my heartfelt and sincere condolences to you, and I am sure the rest of those on here will echo the feelings in that you have a second family here, who both care and are grieving with you.

Tony

Ormeside28
22nd Aug 2016, 20:55
Very sorry Danny. God bless. Ormeside 28

FinelyChopped
22nd Aug 2016, 21:46
My sincere condolences to you, Danny.

GlobalNav
22nd Aug 2016, 22:06
Like all your other fans and friends, Danny, my heart aches for the loss of your beloved wife. God bless you.

jaganpvs
22nd Aug 2016, 23:50
I raise my glass - with respect to a life well lived to Mrs Danny

I offer my prayers to your family Danny. take care.

pzu
23rd Aug 2016, 00:23
Danny

Whilst realising that your loss is most distressing, trust that you & yours can draw some comfort from those here on Pprune who have got to know you and by extension your wife these past few years

Our thoughts are with you at this sad time

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

jeffb
23rd Aug 2016, 04:22
Danny:
It is with sadness that that I hear of your loss. Our prayers are with you and your family.
Jeff

Hempy
23rd Aug 2016, 05:59
My deepest condolences to you and your family, Sir.

Chugalug2
23rd Aug 2016, 07:07
Danny, what can I say? I am so sad for your loss. You have shared your life and that of your wife with all of us here. There is a global band of friends who now grieve for you. Thank you for all that you have written for us. We will patiently await your return.
Requiescat in pace.

FantomZorbin
23rd Aug 2016, 07:38
Danny
I'm so very sorry for you and your family, please accept our sincerest condolences. FZ & Mrs FZ


MPN11. Well done, beautifully put.

ScouseFlyer
23rd Aug 2016, 07:57
Danny
Sincerest condolences to you and your family
SF

andytug
23rd Aug 2016, 08:04
Danny

Whilst realising that your loss is most distressing, trust that you & yours can draw some comfort from those here on Pprune who have got to know you and by extension your wife these past few years

Our thoughts are with you at this sad time

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

And so say all of us! Sincere condolences, will be raising a wee dram to you and yours later tonight.

50+Ray
23rd Aug 2016, 08:50
As a rare contributor but long time avid reader may I add my condolences. Your thread contributions are inspiring. I shall certainly raise a glass in tribute.
Ray

Reader123
23rd Aug 2016, 09:34
Danny, my condolences.

Requiem aeternam dona ei, Domine, et lux perpetua luceat ei. Requiescat in pace.

Molemot
23rd Aug 2016, 10:00
Sincere condolences; the joy has gone out of my day. We will all be waiting here when you come back.....

jonw66
23rd Aug 2016, 10:24
Heartfelt condolences Danny hope you are back on here soon.

Jobza Guddun
23rd Aug 2016, 11:52
As another long-time member, reader, yet infrequent poster I've followed Danny's posts with interest, experiencing a wide range of emotions. I'm certainly wiser for doing so.

Many condolences Danny, I hope the posts from your cyberbuddies here provide a small degree of comfort for you.

JAVELINBOY
23rd Aug 2016, 12:05
My condolences, having lost my daughter early in the year I know what you are going through, think of all the good times you had together, it helps.

Ripline
23rd Aug 2016, 12:10
Dear Danny, I never usually respond to these losses, but I do so now with tears in my eyes. You Sir, are an inspiration to people like me and I can only imagine the effect of the loss of your life companion on you. That you will bear it with your customary fortitude and dignity I have no doubt, but the many messages of support that have been flooding in indicate how much you are held in our collective affections and will hopefully be some sort of comfort. May Mrs Danny42C rest in peace. Condolences to you and your Daughter.

Geoff (Ripline)

eko4me
23rd Aug 2016, 20:02
Ave Maria, gratia plena, Dominus tecum.
Benedicta tu in mulieribus, et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Jesus.
Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus,
nunc et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen.

Fantome
24th Aug 2016, 10:36
many heartfelt shared condolences here .

Danny has become an institution . As are others who have come on board over the years. In his case, this man's warmth, earthiness, humanity, discretion, intelligence and wit need no elaboration. We are, all of us, much more the richer for his sharing with us his life experiences. Were he not the born raconteur and communicator he is, we, like Manuel, would know nothing.

Fantome
24th Aug 2016, 21:36
.


'Dave' Davis (Halton trained 1926) migrated to Australia to become in January 1930 the first engineer for Australian National Airways at Archerfield Airport in Brisbane. While there Dave took an A licence on a Gipsy Moth of the Qantas flying school.
When he passed away in Hobart in 1990, his widow, Clare, (Tasmanian born), at Dave's funeral service recited the 75th and last verse of The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam. -

And when Thyself with shining Foot shall pass
Among the Guests Star-scatter'd on the Grass,
And in thy joyous Errand reach the Spot
Where I made one - turn down an empty Glass !

harrym
26th Aug 2016, 17:26
Danny - difficult to add to the condolences already posted here, but my sentiments mirror exactly those so well expressed by so many others.

harrym

Madbob
26th Aug 2016, 19:13
Dear Danny
I like every other PPRuNer on this thread feel that through this virtual crew room that we have not only got very well acquainted with you but also come to know your family and I join in sending you my heart-felt condolences. The experiences of buying various cars, moving your family to Germany and back to England plus hireings and MQ's to finally being able to buy your own home reveals a very human side to your many wonderful posts on this thread. The importance of that relationship with your wife and family show through very strongly and that will both be a source of pain and of strength as there will be many happy memories to look back on.
My prayers are with you at this sad time......
Madbob

ricardian
31st Aug 2016, 09:05
....
Omega. A long range version of Decca used in the less hospitable parts of the world so that you had an even bigger chance of getting lost than before. Dreadful piece of kit but poor people still use it.
....

Demolition of 1,200 ft tall Omega tower (http://www.controlled-demolition.com/omega-radio-tower) in Argentina.

Video here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kID2pPQR1kY)

ian16th
31st Aug 2016, 12:51
There used to be an Omega Tx on Reunion when I 1st went there in 1992.

Bl**dy big it were! Tis gone now.

Hempy
31st Aug 2016, 13:10
The last Omega tower in Australia was demolished lasy year after a base jumper killed himself trying to jump off it. 1,400 odd ft.

John Eacott
31st Aug 2016, 13:25
We thought Omega to be the bee's knees when flying single pilot offshore across the Timor Sea from Derby to just off Timor-Leste. 2nm accuracy was much better than ADF and a map!

Although when we operated from Exmouth, the proximity of the USN VLF tower required a 65dB filter in the antennae line to allow other signals to come through and give us a usable Omega readout ;)

Wander00
31st Aug 2016, 13:39
For those who follow this thread and others, and for those that might want to spare them a thought, Danny has said that his wife's funeral is on Monday 5th September 1400 BST.

ricardian
31st Aug 2016, 19:46
For those who follow this thread and others, and for those that might want to spare them a thought, Danny has said that his wife's funeral is on Monday 5th September 1400 BST.
Thank you Wander00. Date/time marked in my diary

FantomZorbin
31st Aug 2016, 20:31
Wander00 Thank you. FZ

Brian 48nav
4th Sep 2016, 20:34
I want to take the opportunity of placing this thread back on top of Page 1 by reminding all Danny's readers that his wife's funeral is tomorrow ( Monday 5th Sept' ).

I am sure we will all be with you in spirit Danny, if not actually in person.

NutLoose
4th Sep 2016, 21:45
Agreed, thoughts will be with you tomorrow Danny and not just mine.

Chugalug2
5th Sep 2016, 10:17
I'm sure that the thoughts of all your friends and admirers on this, the best of all PPRuNe threads, are with you and yours on this sad day, Danny.

Chug

Danny42C
5th Sep 2016, 16:50
I'm immensely grateful and humbled by the number and shining sincerity of the condolences expressed to me and my wonderful daughter, and we can only say a simple "Thank you all".

I came across these verses which I find meet my case, and may help others:

"Don't tell me that you understand
Don't tell me that you know
Don't tell me that I will survive
How I will surely grow

Don't come to me with answers
That can only come from me
Don't tell me how my grief will pass
That I will soon be free

Accept me just the way I am
I need someone to share
Just let me grieve and take my hand
To show me that you care"

(Anon)

And you, my friends, have done this admirably for me and my Mary. (As a bonus, thank you also for the kind things said about me and my scribblings - although it makes me feel as if I'm reading my own Obituary !)
.....................

eko4me.....Gratias tibi, amicus meus....D.

.....................

Danny42C.

Icare9
5th Sep 2016, 19:29
Just let me grieve and take my hand
To show me that you care
You'll find plenty of those hands here, we just want to support you through this bad time.
I sorrow for your loss, Mary will be missed, that's a given, but you have shoulders galore here to lean on whenever you need.
Don't forget the PM system if there is anything you need that we can help with.

Wander00
5th Sep 2016, 23:03
The hands are all there Danny, to take when you want. Sleep peacefully tonight. If I could I would just offer you a hug

MPN11
5th Sep 2016, 23:23
Thanks for taking the time to check in here, Danny, when you have so much more to think about. Have a cyber-hug from Virginia, via the wonderful world-wide web of crewroom friendship ;)

NutLoose
5th Sep 2016, 23:38
I totally concur with everything said, remember you are not alone, we are all here for you Danny.

Brian 48nav
6th Sep 2016, 07:47
I have just come in from walking our dog, there seems to be an awful lot of dust in the air this morning.

The words of the poem will help me respond better to a great friend's loss - my Herc mate lost his wife 6 weeks ago, ( he is 20 years younger than you and she was 67 ) and he is coming to stay for the night next Monday. Chugalug may remember Ron J*****y as they overlapped, as skippers, on 30 Sqn for 6 months or so.

Another Herc' mate Chug will remember from their Hastings days, Sir J C, also lost his soul mate earlier this year - I don't know why but it seems that it is not the natural order of things for a man to be widowed.

Still thinking of you Danny, take care.

Chugalug2
7th Sep 2016, 13:19
Danny, that the many expressions of sympathy here have at least been of some comfort to you is in turn an enormously positive comment on this amazing media by which we are united in our virtual crewroom. There are so many negative stories about the evils of the internet and yet it can just as easily become a fantastic power for the good. Here we have now encompassed that power and aimed it squarely at our beloved Senior Pilot. Not an obit but a Master Green endorsement, Sir!

B48N, I am sorry to hear of past colleagues that have also lost their soul mates. It is a hard blow indeed and please pass on my sincere condolences to them if you would be so kind. The comradeship of service was always a two edged sword because it meant that you also felt the pain when such comradeship was cruelly severed. This happened within mere months of my entry's graduation in 1962, and continued on and off thereafter. I fear it is more on these days than off, but I wouldn't have wished to be denied that Bond of Friendship that service bequeathed us all. We are all united and blessed by it!

Chug

Stanwell
7th Sep 2016, 13:27
Well said, Chugalug.
And so say all of us.

Danny42C
7th Sep 2016, 14:25
Well put (as always), Chugalug. D.


(this put out earlier on "Wg Cdr Gill" Thread):

MPN11, Thank you ! Danny (who has crept, purple with confusion, under the nearest flat stone !)

NigG,

What a marvellous bit of extempore verse - I can't match that !

The King of PPRuNe ? Not bloody likely ! ("....Uneasy lies the head that wears a crown...." ?)

No, it's a democracy here - back to the old cyber-crewroom, chaps, poke the stove, get the kettle on and the cards out - and SHUT THAT DOOR ! It's cold outside !

Danny.

NutLoose
7th Sep 2016, 16:02
Here you go Danny, taken on the weekend with you in mind :)

https://c2.staticflickr.com/9/8382/29402568881_95bf5957f1_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/LNcRmM)

https://c7.staticflickr.com/9/8472/29373615382_63fdb16570_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/LKDsuw)

Sorry I couldn't manage a Vengeance, click on them then click again for bigger versions.

MPN11
7th Sep 2016, 18:00
Vaguely OT (there's a novelty for this thread) the ATC "Old and Bold" photo library has just been substantially enhanced with a hundred or so Radar Appraoch Control Course photos. A massive technical effort that took the 2 individuals concerned a LOT of time.

I shall eventually, when on a proper computer, search for Danny42C to see if he really was trained, or just launched blind upon an unsuspecting aircrew community. I have, however, seen my RAC Course photo for the first time ... as the sole plt off amidst a bunch of grizzled flt lts, MACR and WOs, all festooned with medal ribbons! :)

Danny42C
7th Sep 2016, 20:21
Nutloose,

Thank you ! Lovely photographs of a Mk.VC, bulled-up to perfection - the nicest thing that ever flew IMHO.

MPN11,

I'll have you know, Sir, that I'm pukka through and through ! - will look up my old Certificate of Competency (F 5994 ?) and give you chapter and verse - if I can find it.

EDIT: Found it ! ...13/4-1/7/55 42 J.A.T.C. and 14/1-8/3/57 91 G.C.A.OP. (Auth F292s).

Looking forward to a look at the Radar Approach pics (if anyone can scan them from the "Old 'n Bold" library and put them on an ATC Forum). Hope they have a few on the dear old MPN-1 of blessed memory.

Cheers, both,

Danny.

NutLoose
7th Sep 2016, 21:49
It my interest you to know you get quoted these days Danny

Wg Cdr A R Hindley RAF (OBE, DFC, AFC) ?? (http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/showthread.php?8361-Wg-Cdr-A-R-Hindley-RAF-(OBE-DFC-AFC))