Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II [Archive] - Page 35

Danny42C

26th Apr 2016, 20:22

Jack,
...I believe that it was Lucius Cary, 2nd Viscount Falkland, who said, "When it is not necessary to change, it is necessary not to change...."
In general, I would agree with you and with the noble Lord. But in this instance it has always surprised me that so very few of the post-war generations of military pilots have put their training stories (and these must be legion !) down here in detail (preferably 'warts 'n all'). It strikes me that the "in WWII" may have had an "off-putting" effect.

Now we old boys are not an exclusive club: we were merely the ones who were of an age to come in when the scrap-iron was flying about wholesale; it was an accident of birth and nothing more. And there have been many "little wars" since in which our successors have performed as bravely and done as well as ever we did (and as we knew they would). It is they whom I hope will take up the baton from us, and so keep Cliff's (RIP) wonderful Thread alive.
..."Aircrew" or "Flying" for "Pilot's"..
Yes, very good point, Jack. "Flying", I think. And we must always bear in mind PPRuNe's:
...Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here...
Again, I leave the question open.

Stay aboard, Jack !

Danny.

Union Jack

26th Apr 2016, 23:08

Stay aboard, Jack!

Aye, aye, Sir! Assuming you don't mean that you have stopped my leave....:D

Jack

FantomZorbin

27th Apr 2016, 07:09

the whole sorry mess

Mmmm ... what year was it when the National Air Traffic Control Service became the National Air Traffic Service and lost control?? http://cdn.pprune.org/images/smilies/evil.gif

Danny42C

27th Apr 2016, 09:03

Never mind, Jack - if we do, you can always open the Kingston valves and scuttle the ship !

(Hope you can swim).

Danny.

lasernigel

27th Apr 2016, 15:20

I did have a vague thought about starting a Thread about ATC in the 60's, and then gave myself a stern talking-to.

After being suitably chastised about the state of my cooking, whilst on ATC camp at Coltishall, (we had camped out on the coast somewhere), my cooking has remarkably got to the stage of people asking me to cook meals for them now. So a Flt Lt's comments were taken to heart. A case of "Language Timothy" would have been an apt phrase for his words! Was 14 I think.

Keeffro

27th Apr 2016, 18:04

Talk of doldrums leads me to make a very modest and vicarious contribution to this thread of threads, which I discovered – oh, shortly after the end of the War, it now seems - by googling “Catalina Pensacola”.

I was only dimly aware that my brother'-in-law's Dad had been in the RAF. On the occasions when we would meet, it never occurred to me to ask him more about this, because these were family events and holidays.

It was only when I saw him one day assembling an Airfix model of a Wellington that the subject came up. His son needed it as a prop for a photograph to be used in a poster for an amateur production of the play “Flarepath”.

He mentioned that he had trained as a pilot in Pensacola during the war (I hadn't even realised that he had served during the War).

He said he had trained on Catalinas, and that part of the training included practising for a violent ditching: all the trainees had to take turns being strapped into a seat in a mock-up of a cockpit which was on rails and which plunged them into a water tank; they would have to practise releasing themselves from their harnesses under water, exiting from the mockup and swimming up to the surface.

I did see some mention of Pensacola some time back on this thread, and wonder if this anecdote might trigger more recollections.

I'll put up another post shortly on what he was happy to admit was his relatively brief operational experience in wartime.

Union Jack

27th Apr 2016, 18:09

Well there's ATC and then there's ATC.....:uhoh:

Jack

MPN11

27th Apr 2016, 18:31

I did both ... does that make me a bad person? ;)

Danny42C

27th Apr 2016, 18:38

In later years I often yearned for my three wartime ones in India/Burma, where we had no ATC at all - we just flew where, when and as far as we wanted (I had the Authorisation Book !) You could land at any military airfield you liked - no one would challenge you - and get refuelled, serviced and sent on your way with no questions asked. (And a bed for the night if needed).

The other side of the coin was that you were on your own from take off to landing. As there were no Flight Plans, no one was expecting you and so did not worry if you didn't turn up. And of course there were no nav aids of any kind, at least not for the single-engined people with only rudimentary R/T and no CW.

We survived - or most of us did.

Danny.

MPN11

27th Apr 2016, 19:48

And now ... the guys in UK are over-controlled, over-managed ... and then have to do over-there.

kghjfg

28th Apr 2016, 00:34

I can only make a contribution to this thread by repeating what I thought was an excellent anecdote told to me by an ex RAF bomb aimer recently.

He had trained as a pilot, but by that stage of the war we were doing ok, and so he ended up as a bomb aimer in a Lancaster squadron.

As he was trained as a pilot he said his skipper (is that the correct term? I cannot remember for definite the term he used) would let him fly home after a raid, he said this kept him current incase they lost their pilot whilst in the air (if you get my meaning)

So, on to something I've not heard before, and the sort of gem that shouldn't be forgotten.

He said he never landed a Lancaster on the ground, but what his skipper did do was train him to land one, just so he in theory could. How did he do this ? They practised landing on clouds !

I love that, imagine practising landings by putting a Lancaster down on the top of a cloud!

kghjfg

28th Apr 2016, 00:41

2 points,

a) what to ?

My suggestion:

Gaining an R.A.F Pilots Brevet and further adventures.

b) why on earth isn't this thread a sticky? It should be open to all, AND be sticky.

Anyone asked the mods about this ?

Danny42C

28th Apr 2016, 08:45

Keeffro (your #8527),

"The Cat was a Dandy, the Cat was a Yank - it was known by its aircrew as 'The :mad: Flying Plank". (Good story about them: p.152 #3030 this Thread).

We had (in the States in '41-'42) CocaCola, PepsiCola, Royal Crown Cola * - "Amapola" @, and Pensacola.
* (unfortunate name when abridged to "R.C.Cola").
...I'll put up another post shortly on what he was happy to admit was his relatively brief operational experience in wartime...
We'll hold you to that - no backsliding now !

Danny42C.

EDIT @ : "What did the White Bear say to the Brown Bear ?" ... .........."Ah'm a Polar...."

(All right, I'll go quietly, Officer).

Petet

28th Apr 2016, 08:48

My history of No. 35 Squadron project (non commercial / educational) covers the period 1916 to 1982, so I would love to hear about post war training to enable me to have a complete picture of basic, trade (technical) and operational training "through the ages".

Obviously, with so many individual stories being told, it will be necessary to find a way of identifying the era we are talking about, otherwise it may become a little confusing ..... but I am in full support of widening the thread to cover post war training

Regards

Pete

Danny42C

28th Apr 2016, 10:37

kghjfg (your #8532),
...He had trained as a pilot, but by that stage of the war we were doing ok, and so he ended up as a bomb aimer in a Lancaster squadron.

As he was trained as a pilot he said his skipper (is that the correct term? I cannot remember for definite the term he used) would let him fly home after a raid, he said this kept him current in case they lost their pilot whilst in the air (if you get my meaning)...
No experience in Bomber Command, but I believe it was the practice for all Flight Engineers to be allowed to fly the aircraft for a while to give the 'skipper' a break. After all, he's up there with him in front and had (I think) a dual yoke.

When the two man crew policy came in Civil, many displaced F/Es retrained as pilots and were re-employed as such by their Companies (or so I was told - in an Air Malta "glossie", if memory serves)

We, too, in our VVs, taught our back seat men (who could be navs or wop/ags) to fly the things S&L, and hold a Course (all right, a Heading). That way, if we were dead or incapacitated, he could (with luck) get the thing back over our side, bale out and leave me to crash and die. On no account should he attempt to belly-land (the VV had no u/c controls in the back), as he would certainly kill us both (this actually happened with a Beau on a strip next to us in Burma. Shot up over Rangoon, and with a dead or dying pilot, the nav got the thing 200 miles home, tried to crash-land; they both died).

Post-war, I often took one of my C.O.s (an Auxiliary Wing Commander Fighter Controller - and ex-war Air Gunner with a DSO - think of that) for a ride in the Station Harvard, and on trips to Conferences and the like. Whiled away the time teaching him to fly (no, I'm not a QFI). He was very good; I used the "Cloud" trick to teach circuits, but of course, "landing" on a bit of stratus is only fanciful.

(your #8533),

My suggestion:

"Gaining a R.A.F Flying Brevet".

Not so sure about a "Sticky". This Thread has always stood on its own merits from Day One eight years ago - and long may it do so - until, like all Old Soldiers, it never dies - it only fades away.....

As for the protocol for name changes and "Stickies", I leave that to those more skilled at this game than I.

Open to suggestions.......

Danny42C.

Danny42C

28th Apr 2016, 10:58

Petet (your #8535),
...so I would love to hear about post war training so that I have a complete picture of basic, trade (technical) and operational training "through the ages"...
So would we all !
...with so many individual stories being told, it will be necessary to find a way of identifying the era we are talking about otherwise it may become a little confusing ..... but I am in full support of widening the thread to cover post war training...
I have often thought that it should be mandatory for Members to state their true ages - for that enables the rest of us to place them in their correct time-frames.

Another hare running !

Danny.

Madbob

29th Apr 2016, 13:12

kghjfg

My late father was a Stirling pilot and he had in his crew a Flt Sgt who was his Flight Engineeer (F/S Lee was his name). F/S Lee had been washed out late on as a pilot and re-mustered as a F/E.

Unlike other four-engine bombers and flying boats the Stirling was flown single-pilot so my father felt himself fortunate to have an F/E who could also act as a co-pilot. He said that he always made full use of his crew and this included use of his unofficial co-pilot. Dad said that the elsan was a long way down the back and would not have been an option for him without a second pilot even with "George" the rudimentary automatic pilot working properly.

Looking at his log book, his longest trip in a Stirling was 9.15 but that was after the war re-patriating 22 former P.O.W.'s via Castel Benito in Libya. On ops his longest trip was 7.15 with a comment that he landed at Tempsford on 3 engines so I think he must have been grateful for any help he could get! I would imagine the practice of employing navs and other crew as co-pilots was pretty widespread.

MB

Danny42C

29th Apr 2016, 15:43

Madbob,
...Unlike other four-engine bombers and flying boats the Stirling was flown single-pilot...
Don't know about flying boats, but as they had enormous endurance (I believe the Catalina had 24 hours), clearly two pilots would be needed for the sortie.

As for "the other four-engine bombers", I was never in Bomber Command, but understand that the RAF had to fly them all single-pilot, as we just didn't have enough pilots (unlike our USAAF cousins, who could provide two pilots for any of their aircraft which had two seats in front). But there are yet several of our old heroes active on this Thread who could confirm/deny/qualify and generally tell this story better than I.

What that must have meant in practice I have described at length on Page 388, #7433 of this Thread. If you meet such a man, salute and take your hat off to him - for he is worth it - and you may not see his like again !

JENKINS,

And then you cap my story ! What a family record to be proud of !

Cheers, both. With respect. Danny.

jeffb

30th Apr 2016, 13:41

kghjfg:
I think most prudent Bomber Command crews did some rudimentary cross training. Dad too was given some stick time on the Lanc; while he had soloed a Tiger Moth before being washed out, being able to control it at night on instruments( and during the Battle of Berlin all ops were at night) is speculation. The Nav would tell the crew of a broad heading to fly that would stand a good chance of hitting England somewhere, where they could get assistance. He also worked close with Dad, who, as Bomb aimer, assisted the Nav. All the crew knew how to send out a basic distress call on the wireless.
Even Dad admitted a lot of it was more to give everyone a sense of hope ( invincibility? ) to cope with the staggering losses of the day.
Jeff

Danny42C

30th Apr 2016, 20:12

jeffb,
...Even Dad admitted a lot of it was more to give everyone a sense of hope (invincibility?) to cope with the staggering losses of the day...
I have often wondered how the Bomber Command crews (never having been one of them myself) managed to "screw their courage to the sticking point", and keep it there, night after fearful night, in full knowledge of the odds against them, for thirty long nights (and sometimes come back for more).

I suppose they may have rationalised that "sense of hope" by reflecting that losses ran around 3% a night, on average, so on any one operation the odds in your favour could be reckoned as 97:3. And, as a tossed coin which has landed "heads" nine times still has only a 50% chance of landing "heads" a tenth time, so those encouraging odds on any one "trip" may have been of comfort to them each time (until their luck ran out !)

At least I would have thought along those lines.
...invincibility?...
That goes to the heart of it. We all thought: "I'ts going to happen to the other chap - never to me".

Your Dad was a brave man, and I salute him.

Danny.

Fantome

1st May 2016, 06:37

The late Don Charlwood of Melbourne in Victoria OZ. . . .flew as a nav on many many missions. In the end he was the only survivor of his course from the Edmonton training days. Don was the thorough gentleman. Having visited him with a copy of one of his books, it was a great privilege to meet him and his Canadian wife and experience the silver service, so unaccustomed to a rough pleb.

In his books NO MOON TONIGHT and MARCHING AS TO WAR he delves into the question of fate and the attitudes of the crew he was close to. While the strain he described was obviously horrendous at times he seems to have had the ability to switch off, on his days off enjoying the English countryside with great empathy and sensitivity. He certainly was an author of exceptional talent.

google Don Charlwood for a photo file spanning his many years.

Danny . . . just found that email from you twisting my wrist to post some
fragments of an unreliable memoir. I will inflict upon you a smattering. Stand-by.

Fantome

1st May 2016, 06:48

When I was a youngster, growing up in Canberra, I developed, like a good many kids, a passion for all things aeronautical. Whenever one of dad’s friends was around, talking about air force exploits or describing seeing some famous arrival from overseas, such as Charles Kingsford Smith, I was spellbound, hanging on every word. My bicycle was only useful to get me out to the airport where I found wonderful work cleaning the oily bellies of aero club planes in return for credit towards the day when I could start taking flying lessons. Sometimes, when I wagged school, I’d score a trip down to Bankstown or over to some NSW country town such as Cootamundra, the pilot every so often handing over the controls for a while. Magic!

Once a year the aero club hosted an airshow. The one staged in April 1959 particularly stands out for me. The first visiting plane to come in was a gleaming former RAAF fighter, the Mustang, privately owned by an airline pilot from Tamworth. He emerged from the cockpit, a tall, lean bloke, more like James Stewart than James Stewart. His routine for the show, to the crowd’s delight, was a series of loops and rolls performed with consummate smoothness and grace. Small wonder that the photos I took of him that day checking his plane over before flying off home are ones I greatly treasure. Little could I know then that I’d get to know this man rather well. Our friendship lasted 32 years, until his death in 1998.

He was Chris Braund, a native of Griffith, NSW. He left school early and went down to the Hawkesbury Agricultural College just out of Sydney. But he had little heart for farming. It was flying and the draw of Sydney’s airport at Mascot that proved irresistible. When war broke out he enlisted in the RAAF, learned to fly and served in North Africa and the Pacific. After the war Chris flew DC-3s and Fokker Friendships on airline services, also doing a stint in Tasmania cloud-seeding. Despite the passage of years and the passing of Chris, whenever certain fliers from the fifties and sixties gather today, more often than not Chris’s name comes up and folk fall about recalling the peculiarly lateral humour that sustained Chris and amused others all his flying life. His stammer only added to the mystique.

There was a radio jingle for a brand of flour that went “S . .Sydney Flour is our f..flour. We use it every day. For scones and c..cakes that m..mother bakes, we say it is OKAY.” Well Chris had his version which he’d sing on first contact with the control tower at Sydney Airport on his way in from Tamworth of a morning. “S. .Sydney Tower is our t..tower, we c..call you every day. This is Echo Whisky Alpha, over B..Broken Bay.” And he’d get away with it, time after time. When on final approach to Mascot one day and waiting for a landing clearance the tower told him “Continue approach - there are two of dogs crossing the runway”. Now this was at a time when the phonetic alphabet had just undergone an international revision and for instance A- Able became A -Alpha and D- Dog became D- Delta, so what could the mercurial Chris reply with but “D..Don’t you mean t.t. two Deltas?” ?

On leaving school I went down to Sydney to the old flying boat base at Rose Bay, becoming an apprentice engineer there. One night over on Lord Howe Island one of our Short Sandringhams was blown off it’s mooring and damaged beyond repair. Back then the communication networks were not what they are today. The only workable radio link to Lord Howe the next day was poor and calls between the government Flight Service Unit in Sydney and the one over on the island were difficult to read as messages about the foundered flying boat were relayed back and forth. One of our skippers at Rose Bay later told me how hard it was to copy anything. It so happened that at the time Chris was flying somewhere out in the back blocks of NSW, trying to raise Sydney Flight Service with a routine HF call, but due to the stream of calls “Lord Howe this is Sydney” and “Sydney this is Lord Howe”, having little joy. Finally Chris got a few words in edgeways, as it were, emphasised by the slight stammer that was another of his trademarks, “L-Lord Howe I wish you’d sh-shut up!”

Chris eventually quit his job in Tamworth and seeking warmer climes moved to Cairns were he flew DC-3s for the pioneer firm Bush Pilots Airways and on occasions filled in for pilots on leave from the Royal Flying Doctor Service. When he finally metaphorically hung up his cap and his goggles he found a place to live in Terrigal on the NSW central coast, near to his family and his adored granddaughter Erin. (“M-my p-pride of Erin”). I only saw him once in those twilight years, staying the night and hearing many stories of a full and fulfilling flying life till dawn’s early light flushed the sky: the sky where his spirit most times dwelled. A week later Chris’s son Murray rang to say that his dad had just passed on to “the great holding pattern in the sky.” If there is an airmen’s Valhalla, I imagine Chris breasting a bar saying “A b-beer b-barman. P-put it where you like. Th-there’s no im-p-pediment in my reach.”

Stanwell

1st May 2016, 08:16

Thank you, Fantome.
Chris Braund was/is indeed a legend. :ok:

Danny42C

2nd May 2016, 10:09

JENKINS,

Thanks for the 'head-up' (normally only buy Saturday D.T., as that provides enough fish'n chip wrapping paper to last all week).

Daughter instructed to put it on shopping list today.

Danny.

MPN11

2nd May 2016, 11:03

Also here, Danny42C >>> http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/578425-wg-cdr-arthur-gill-dfc-obe.html

Danny42C

3rd May 2016, 10:53

Thanks, MPN11 - and it's good to see the old Vengeance getting a bit of publicity after having been totally forgotten for 70+ years.
... It has done the state some service, and they know't...
Danny.

Fantome

3rd May 2016, 11:26

There is tale to be told about two Vengeance pilots who were on a target towing detail at the RAAF base at Tocumwal in NSW. There are buried in the cemetery there having died in an accident. Or was it? There was at the time some shady business going on at Toc in 1944 with the war by now far away from the Australian mainland. There were many instances of sabotage going on around the aerodrome in the dead of the night. The CO of the base, if the hearsay stories can be believed , knew beyond all shadow of doubt, the two men who were responsible. He then took matters into his own hands . He detailed the two culprits for target towing, in the course of which they were 'accidentally' shot down.

Danny42C

3rd May 2016, 20:54

Fantome (your #8550),
...in 1944 with the war by now far away from the Australian mainland...
Not all that far:
...The New Guinea campaign of the Pacific War lasted from January 1942 until the end of the war in August 1945...(Wiki).
and:
...Casualties and losses
42,000 total[4]Allied.......... 127,600 (New Guinea only)[5]Jap... (Wiki).
I would assume most of the Allied casualties would be Australian.
...He then took matters into his own hands . He detailed the two culprits for target towing, in the course of which they were 'accidentally' shot down...
Sorry, Fantome, but I cannot believe that. He would have had to order an Australian gun crew to deliberately shoot down an Australian aircraft with an Australian crew. This was clearly not a Lawful Command - and even if the gun crew had been willing accomplices (which they must have been for otherwise they would have refused to obey), think of the number who had witnessed the event, and the suspicions which must have been aroused. The Court of Enquiry's findings would make interesting reading (is it possible to turn them up from the Archives ?)

Danny.

CoodaShooda

3rd May 2016, 23:23

Hi Danny

The version I heard years ago was it was an air to air gunnery run, flown by the CO.

Stanwell

4th May 2016, 08:25

I had a look through the listing of RAAF accidents and crashes in Australia during the war years.
This listing is from Peter Dunn's Ozatwar site and, while respected, I personally feel is less than 100% complete.

Anyway, I was not able to turn up definite record of a Vengeance crash anywhere near Tocumwal in 1944.
There is one, however, of Vengeance A27-409 from 3 Communication Flight, RAAF which, it seems, had been operating from Mascot, Sydney as a target drogue test aircraft.
This crash, resulting in two fatalities at an unrecorded location, occurred on February 28th, 1944.
I wonder if that could be the one referred to.

Danny42C

4th May 2016, 09:06

CoodaShooda,

Yes, I hadn't thought of that. But he would have had to make sure he finished them both off (and even then, might they not have been able to get an anguished call out on the R/T ?) He took a huge risk !

Stanwell,

The plot thickens - could be we're on to something here. But two fatalities like this must have been investigated - there must be a paper trail. Do you have an Air Historical Branch in the RAAF ?

Curiously, I had my own near-death experience four days earlier, on 24.2.44.

Danny.

Fantome

4th May 2016, 09:56

In Fred Hoinville's book 'Halfway to Heaven' he recounts a fatal accident to a VV at Mascot (Sydney's primary airport). Probably in 1944. Curiously it was also witnessed by two men I knew years later. One was Dick Creak who was an apprentice in a maintenance hangar nearby. The other was Lindsay Pryor who was involved with forestry in the war and later became dean of the School of Botany at the Australian National University in Canberra.

The Tocumwal incident, if it did happen, might have been revealed by the only witness to the extraordinary event, the perpetrator himself, on or close to his death bed. A similar thing may have happened long afterwards with a Qantas Catalina in August 1949. This aircraft was blown up in the night at her mooring in Rose Bay, Sydney.
The guilty party was never found, although suspicions abounded at the time, and for years after. A man claiming to have been responsible confessed to his crime shortly before his death in Hong Kong about ten years ago. It cannot be confirmed however. It ranks with all those Bill Tidy FOAF stories. (A friend of a friend.)

Wander00

4th May 2016, 10:03

Danny, you make me feel positively young - my birth "experience" was just a week earlier.................

Danny42C

4th May 2016, 12:13

Fantome,

"An airman told me before he died,
And I don't know if the b*****d lied......."

Falls in the same category, I suppose. There are many questions left over from WWII which can never be answered now.

Wander00,

Gaudeamus igitur......!

Danny.

MPN11

4th May 2016, 16:15

I sadly dropped out of Latin in the 2nd Form at Grammar School. I used to be quite competent in Prep, but when I returned from Jamaica I discovered they were using the same textbook, but I was on page 5 and they were about to move on from the Vocab and Index to a new textbook. Tempus fugit :)

Danny42C

4th May 2016, 21:06

Keeffro, (your #8527),
...I'll put up another post shortly on what he was happy to admit was his relatively brief operational experience in wartime...
and my #8534,
...We'll hold you to that - no backsliding now !...
It's been a week - the natives will be getting restless. Could we please have just a little taster ?

Danny.

Keeffro

4th May 2016, 23:33

The noble call from Danny!

By the time Dennis was ready to be posted to an operational squadron, the need for Catalina pilots was declining. So he either volunteered or was volunteered to retrain as a glider pilot.

This led to him taking part in the Rhine Crossing in early 1945: that was an operation that I wasn't really aware of, overshadowed as it was in popular culture by the Remagen crossing and Market Garden, both of which have been the subject of well-known books and films.

He told me that he had landed at Hamminkeln. He transported an element of the Oxford and Bucks Light Infantry, and was really greatly impressed by their high standard of training as they deployed and went into action – he said that their officer commanded them entirely by whistle blasts and they all moved very smartly and efficiently.

After the successful landing, he said, “They gave me a rifle and told me to guard a bunch of prisoners in a cellar, which I did till I was relieved the next day, and that was the end of my war”.

Around the time he told me this, he was planning to take part in a reunion in Hamminkeln, and had even secured lottery funding to take part. I was living in Belgium at the time, and was hoping to travel there to meet him at the reunion. I spent some time researching the operation, which was called Operation Varsity, and collecting links to online articles about it for him and the rest of his family to read. There's an article on it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Varsity However, in the event, he decided at the last moment not to go, and I can imagine his reasons for this.

Though judged a great success, Operation Varsity did still incur considerable casualties, though not on the scale of Arnhem. I recall reading in one of the articles I found on line that casualties were particularly heavy among glider pilots.

He died a few years ago before I ever got a chance to ask him more about his time in uniform. However, I believe that his other son (who lives near Biggin Hill, as it happens) has his logbook and may be able to contribute a few more anecdotes if I can get him to join this discussion.

Danny42C

5th May 2016, 11:25

Keeffro

Many of our contributors seem to have been railroaded into the Glider Pilot business in the later stages of the war.

Every landing a forced landing ? Not my cup of tea ! (bad enough when you have a donk or two).

Danny.

Walter603

7th May 2016, 06:34

We four, Reub and Len, Bob and I, took a trip (cadged rides in Yankee jeeps, mainly) up the local mountain, about 3,000 feet high, on the north-west corner of Sicily, and there found the most delightful old-world village, Erice, (pronounced "Eri-chay) perched right on the top of the mountain. It had ancient cottages and civic buildings clustered together around a cobbled village square. On one side was what appeared to be a medieval castle, actually built or moulded into the sheer cliff face at its base. We had 24 hours leave, and stayed in the local hotel, a place full of charm but with very little to eat. We had some wonderful omelettes, for dinner and for breakfast the next day, washed down of course with plenty of local wine. Some of the locals were hostile, others were quite friendly, including one young man with the air of a student, who spoke to us in halting English in the cobbled street and then took us to his home, where we gently sipped the very sweet wine he served, and ate tiny, sweet biscuits.

Our flying continued as before. We did lots of convoy escorts into the Italian coast, landing troops in the Salerno area, where a bridgehead was being established. We rarely saw enemy aircraft, but we knew there was a great deal of activity in the invasion area. We were flying for long hours - one of my escort trips, including the journey to and from the convoy, was for 6 hours 20 minutes, quite a feat in a Beaufighter.

While we were in Sicily, the Italian Government capitulated to the Allies, and there was a sudden switch in affections by both sides. Officially, the Italians became our allies, and the Germans, furious at the change of heart, took it out on the Italians. The Italian army was rounded up as prisoners-of-war, "friendly" towns and villages were besieged by Germans, and there was a general air of relief by our side, although the long, hard slog northwards up the Italian mainland was still ahead.

We celebrated the capitulation very happily. We drank 'vino' in the local farmhouse with the family, and I toasted them in halting Italian, which I had learned from a school grammar picked up somewhere. To my embarrassment, none of them understood what I was saying, looking blankly at me and muttering "Non capita, non capito", but there was great hilarity from my mates!

Eventually, our little tour of duty in Sicily came to an end. I think we would all have liked to continue, by moving across to Italy and continuing northwards with the advancing armies. However, our presence was obviously required elsewhere, and we were sent back to Egypt, to be re-equipped with more up-to-date Beaufighters crated out from England and re-assembled in Egypt.

Soon we were flying again, from Libyan airfields in the vicinity of Tobruk and Benghazi, in Beaufighter Mark Xs, and resumed activities on escort duty for shipping, and on "strikes" across the Mediterranean in Greek waters, both adjacent to the mainland and in the islands north of Crete, where there were still large numbers of the enemy.

The reason for our frequent moves around the desert was mainly due to the weather that played an important part in where we could take off and land our aircraft. We were some time at El Adem, near Tobruk, where all the water was salty and most unpleasant to drink and wash in. We were also at Berka III, a landing ground south of Benghazi, when sudden rains came and flooded us out of El Adem. From these two airfields, we made our long sorties across that great ocean.

Each flight took between two and two-and-a-half hours each way - to reach the coast of Greece or the islands in the Aegean Sea. From the aforementioned habit of the Beaufighter of "hunting", or rising up and down at will, it was a very tiring job to fly right across the Mediterranean, attack a target, and fly back to base. Nevertheless, I think most of us enjoyed the experience, although sometimes fearful in the action that occurred over and around the targets. Only feet above the sea, we would attack airfields, stray shipping like gunboats and corvettes, supply barges making their runs between the mainland and the islands, bomb dumps and other likely strategic objectives.

Danny42C

7th May 2016, 11:53

Walter,
... From the aforementioned habit of the Beaufighter of "hunting", or rising up and down at will...
and
...Only feet above the sea...
Sounds a lethal combination to me ! (A poet, no less ! Is there no end to the man's accomplishments ?)

Did you ever get to see the Capuchin catacombs of Palermo ? (bit grisly, but quite a tourist attraction, I believe). Sadly, I never saw anything of the Mediterranian lands in WWII, except for a night transit of the Canal, and our ship home pulled in at Gib to offload a smallpox patient.

Worth a read: Eric Newby's "Love and War in the Apenines", a lovely story of the times the Italians changed sides. The Brazilian rivulet has copies (no, I'm not on commission).

Danny.

Lyneham Lad

7th May 2016, 19:31

Re Eric Newby - responsible for my all time favourite book title - 'A Short Walk in the Hindu Kush'. His 'The Last Grain Race' is also well-worth reading.

And now back to your normal programme...

Walter603

8th May 2016, 02:17

Danny - yes, it was a lethal combination. We were instructed to fly all our "rover" patrols at 20 feet above sea level to keep below enemy RDF. For safety I was usually up to 50 feet and even that felt dangerous at times. We did lose planes and crews; can't say how many but I do remember a seasoned pair, Johnny Hay and Eric Warral, who disappeared in an instant when their plane touched the sea.

Walter603

8th May 2016, 02:30

Danny, I didn't get to Palermo. We were in sicily only about 4 weeks before being shunted back to Libya and apart from Erice on the mountain I only visited a couple of small towns like Mazala. Otherwise we were quite busy!

Danny42C

8th May 2016, 09:32

Walter,
...Otherwise we were quite busy!...
And we are eager to hear all about it !

Danny.

ICM

8th May 2016, 10:12

Danny, some confirmation on chaps being posted to gliders late in the war comes from a Flight Commander on 10 Sqn, in India by late 1945 after converting to Dakotas. Writing home to his wife, he mentions having "a full complement of pilots now, over half of them are glider bods who haven't flown since Service school, and who were put onto gliding when they returned to England." (Up to that point, crews had kept their Halifax Air Bombers as 2nd pilots on the Dakota.)

ancientaviator62

8th May 2016, 12:00

ICM,
that chimes exactly with the log books of the OC 10 Sqn after they were posted to India with Dakotas. On Halifaxes his entries are as Navigator or Air Bomber. The entries of his time in India are 'Co-Pilot' until they cease on 8 Jan 1946 when I assume he was repatriated.

Danny42C

9th May 2016, 05:20

Danny is going off line now........I may be some time.

D.

FantomZorbin

9th May 2016, 07:31

Stay safe Danny.

Danny42C

9th May 2016, 08:19

NigG,

Welcome to our Old Crewroom in Cyberspace - and well met, Sir !
.... In fact, they did continue to operate after the other VV squadrons had been withdrawn. The vertical dive started at about 12000', the aircraft finishing at maybe 200', and the pilot had to aim at the target, so low cloud made it unworkable. However, 84 developed a low level dive, which was less accurate, but still pretty effective..
This puzzles me. I believe the decision to halt VV operations (on the onset of the '44 monsoon) was a policy one made by "Command" (in our case AHQ, Delhi). As to the exact date the axe fell, I cannot really help, as I was away recuperating from injuries sustained in my forced landing on 24th February, and did not come back until it was all over. Mistaken policy though it was (IMHO), I see no reason why it should not have applied to all the Squadrons.

We had all tried shallow dives (ca 45°) in monsoon weather, but discarded the idea because the famed VV accuracy had gone (the enormous nose of the VV plus the extra AoA from the zero AoI made for very poor forward visibilty) - and in any case the Hurricane and Beaufighter could do the job better, as they could see where they were going, and were much more agile - both important considerations when you are dodging round the jungle hills low level in pouring rain !

To carry out a "standard" VV dive, the drill was to start, as you say, from 10-12,000 AGL. You must be able to see your target from there (the leader above all, as unless he starts his dive absolutely vertically, the rest will be "off" increasingly as they follow him down). Trial and (lethal !) error had shown that if the average chap pulls as hard as he can (to the point of "grey-out") as the altimeter passes 3,500 AGL, he will finish level at 1,000 or so. That sounds a fair margin, but as you were coming down at terminal velocity (300 mph with dive brakes out), it works out at 400 ft/sec - or 2½ seconds leeway. You hadn't a lot to play with ! Of course, you would not pull to be level at 1,000 (making yourself a fine target !). but eased off at the end to get down to the treetops ASAP with most of your 300 mph, you would be very unlucky to be hit then.
...You question why the VV didn't have more problems with Oscar fighters. In fact, the Allies had nine times the number of squadrons as the Japs, over Burma, in support of the '44/'45 offensive ... definite air superiority! Squadrons of Spits and Hurricanes were doing an excellent job of knocking down enemy aircraft...
So they were (but not until the Spitfires came on the scene !) And they cannot be everwhere at the same time. But Burma is a big place; there were no "Early Warning" systems; the Vengeance "boxes" on Army Support simply took off to reach target at a time fixed by the Army. Then the troops would close in to 100 yards on the Jap bunker or other strongpoint, ready to fire the mortar smoke bomb onto it when they saw and heard us coming. 24 bombs, four tons of HE, would go into the bunker area in 20 seconds, any surviving Jap would be so dazed by noise and blast that he could offer little resistance when the troops rushed in with grenade, rifle and bayonet to mop up.
...rarely flew with fighter cover...
True !
...So if enemy aircraft were sighted in the target area, the mission would be delayed until it was 'safer' to operate...
Never heard of that - ever (except in the case of the Jap high level .air raid on Khumbirgram - my Post on "Gaining a RAF Pilot's Brevet in WWII" Thread p.136 #2710 -"Danny loses an Elephant").

Enough ! I must go now, will be off line....I may be gone some time...

Danny42C.

PS: Agree - you Dad should have got the DSO (unless he got the DFC for shooting down the Oscar ?)

Madbob

9th May 2016, 09:19

All the very best Danny. We all look forward to you coming back on freq. We hope the radio silence will be brief.

Good luck,

MB

Union Jack

9th May 2016, 14:24

Danny is going off line now........I may be some time.

And then only two hours 59 minutes to your next post, Danny! More seriously, special thoughts whatever the reason or, as they in this part of the world whatever age you are, "You go kerful, young man".:ok:

Jack

kghjfg

10th May 2016, 06:50

Take care Danny, our thoughts are with you.

David.

Danny42C

10th May 2016, 10:56

FALSE ALARM
Facing the prospect of a long stay in our local Hospital (a thousand beds, 9,000 staff, one of the largest in Europe), but very nice, obliging Consultant decided he could continue with me on an out-patient basis (probably short of beds !), so I'm back in the firing line again TFN.

Thank you all for your kind wishes, feel a bit of a fool...:O

Danny42C

Wander00

10th May 2016, 11:20

Glad you are still with us, in fact and in spirit

Union Jack

10th May 2016, 11:34

Thank you all for your kind wishes, feel a bit of a fool....

'The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man
knows himself to be a fool.' - Shakespeare :ok:

Jack

Danny42C

10th May 2016, 12:13

All,

Please see my "Mea Maxima Culpa" on "Wg Cdr Arthur Gill, DFC, OBE" Thread.

Hopes this clears it up !

Danny.

Danny42C

10th May 2016, 12:16

Jack,

Aristophanes wrote: "Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness sobered, but stupid lasts forever."

Danny.

ian16th

10th May 2016, 13:43

Danny,

Pleased not to have you gone.

I take it that the 'ospital in question is named after a sailor who went to school in Great Ayton.

Hempy

10th May 2016, 14:11

Danny. My heart skipped a beat when I read your message reminiscent of Titus Oates. How it jumped for joy learning that you have been discovered safe and well. The world (not just the PPRuNe world) would be a lesser place without you.

You need to write a book. It'd be a bestseller.

Danny42C

10th May 2016, 15:55

Ian16th,

On the spot, Ian ! (as the only man of any eminence who lived here), Captain James Cook's name is stuck on just about everything else. He was born (reputedly) about a mile as the crow flies from where I now sit. If any town on Teesside produced seaside rock (Redcar ?), it would have "James Cook" in the middle.

I understand that, among other places, he discovered a land where there are kangaroos and which was at one time useful to us as a penal colony. Only joking !

To all my wellwishers, heartfelt thanks,

Danny.

Royalistflyer

10th May 2016, 17:45

Danny42C Congrats on escaping incarceration. I was in for four weeks and just got loose a week ago with continued surgeon's supervision - freedom is marvellous.

ian16th

10th May 2016, 19:02

Danny

On the spot, Ian ! (as the only man of any eminence who lived here), Captain James Cook's name is stuck on just about everything else. He was born (reputedly) about a mile as the crow flies from where I now sit. If any town on Teesside produced seaside rock (Redcar ?), it would have "James Cook" in the middle.

Although Capt Cook has no known grave, his sister is buried in Redcar.

Not a lot of people know that.

Hempy

11th May 2016, 07:18

Point of order. The esteemed Capt. Cook didn't discover Terra Australis, he was just the first European to 'claim' it. The Dutch beat him by ~160 years, hence the name 'New Holland'.

It's unlikely that Cook ever had a grave, known or otherwise;

"The esteem which the islanders nevertheless held for Cook caused them to retain his body. Following their practice of the time, they prepared his body with funerary rituals usually reserved for the chiefs and highest elders of the society. The body was disembowelled, baked to facilitate removal of the flesh, and the bones were carefully cleaned for preservation as religious icons in a fashion somewhat reminiscent of the treatment of European saints in the Middle Ages. Some of Cook's remains, thus preserved, were eventually returned to his crew for a formal burial at sea."

Attempting to kidnap an Hawaiian king was probably not one of his smartest moves!

Fareastdriver

11th May 2016, 09:17

Captain Cook; cooked.

Octane

11th May 2016, 11:26

He was chopped up into many pieces as I understand it. After much negotiation with the natives, some bits of him were returned, apparently...

Fareastdriver

11th May 2016, 11:48

They missed out on lunch, then.

Wandering around Fiji I was shown a rock that had convenient blood channels in it where criminals where executed and them scoffed.

Apparently it was the custom until the British spoiled it in the late 19th century.

Danny42C

12th May 2016, 13:44

Keeffro (your #8556);

Checking back, put up the link you gave me [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Varsity]. Like most people, I'd heard about "Market Garden" (and we'd all been to see the film "A Bridge Too Far") and knew about the heroic failure at Arnhem, but "Operation Varsity" was a new one on me.

Wiki tells me:
... Involving more than 16,000 paratroopers and several thousand aircraft, it was the largest airborne operation in history to be conducted on a single day and in one location...
It seems that Dennis's war may not have been long - but it was a hot one ! And a successful one too, for it enabled the Allies to get across the Rhine "in one bound", as it were, and so bring the war in Europe to an end little more than a month later.

Reading Wiki's account, I was horrified to hear that, unlike the Daks, the Curtis C-46 Commando tugs (sort of big fat Dakotas) did not have self-sealing tanks, which made S&L at 1,500 ft in daylight over defences more than a little hazardous !

5,000 miles away, I'd other things on my mind at the time: and was rather excited (and nervous !), as I'd just been told that they were giving me my first (and last) very own tiny Command in the RAF.

Danny.

Keeffro

12th May 2016, 17:11

Delighted to see you back at the controls, Danny, and I add my best wishes to those already expressed :ok:.

It is indeed surprising how, given its scale, Operation Varsity appears to have slipped in under the radar of public awareness - though you at least have the excuse that you were otherwise engaged at the time.

By the way, his son told me that, among Dennis's ex-RAF pals, his nickname was "Danny", and that this was a nickname that several of his pals shared. Was this a bit of a running gag, like "Bruce" in the Monty Python universe? His son thought it might be a reference to Dan Dare, but Wikipedia tells me that Dan Dare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Dare wasn't written about till 1950 (and that the eponym himself wasn't born till 1967!). And dare I even ask if you yourself are a Danny by birth or by sobriquet?

Danny42C

12th May 2016, 18:37

Keeffro,

Curiously, my real name is "Dennis", but I am not "Danny" on that account. I have a very Irish sounding surname, and in the RAF all Irishmen are variously "Mick", "Paddy", "Spud" or in my case "Danny" (from ♫"Danny-boy"♫).

To the very few who have been in email contact, please note that my first Christian name is used there - and it is not "Dennis".

On PPRuNe you will, of course, only use "Danny" or "Danny42C"

Cheers, Danny.

Fareastdriver

12th May 2016, 20:30

Dan Dare,

I can still remember the first page of the first copy of the Eagle comic that I bought.

I wish I had kept it.

ian16th

12th May 2016, 21:25

Dan Dare,
I can still remember the first page of the first copy of the Eagle comic that I bought.

I wish I had kept it. I bought the 1st edition. The day it was published.

It included an invitation to join The Eagle Club, with prizes for the 1st dozen or so joiners from each part of the country.
For the NE of England the prize was a trip to the Headingly Test Match.
My application, complete with 1/- postal order, went into the mail on the same day.

My membership number was 100,008.

I didn't get to Headingly.

Molemot

13th May 2016, 10:42

I grew up wanting to BE Dan Dare.....seem to have metamorphosed into Digby....

Walter603

13th May 2016, 11:34

On one effort, over a Dodecanese airfield, our Flight Commander, Squadron Leader Barry Atkinson, claimed to have aimed his aircraft and fired his guns at a large party of soldiers, headed by an officer who, Barry said, was wearing an Iron Cross, and who pointed with a revolver at the aircraft before being blown apart (that's how low we used to fly on our raids). Such was the amazing intelligence network of the Germans, that not very long afterwards, we heard that a rebuttal had been made by them, and published in English newspapers, that there was no German officer on the airfield at that date who was entitled to wear the Iron Cross!

During the same raid, my cockpit canopy was struck on the right side by a bullet, or a piece of shrapnel, that tore a large hole in the perspex, and struck my right arm with great force - not enough to break the skin, but sufficient to bruise my arm and make it feel sore for some days. On landing, we found damage also to the starboard wing, probably caused by shrapnel from a bomb burst on the airfield.

Another "false alarm" for me was caused while attacking enemy shipping in the same area, when I dived down on an armed vessel, guns blazing, and staring with awe at the tracer bullets coming towards me, and suddenly found that my "ring-sight" - a reflected circle with target centre seen above the firing button - had disappeared. At the same time, I felt an intense burning sensation on my right thigh, just above the knee. (I was wearing khaki shorts and shirt). A couple of seconds was enough for me to find that I had not been struck by enemy bullets, but was suffering from the effects of a very hot electric bulb, that had dropped out of the bottom of the ringsight reflector, and was resting uncomfortably at the end of its short piece of flex onto my leg.

One not-so-clever incident was nearly serious for me and my observer. We were on one of those long return trips across the Med, described above, and escorting a Yankee squadron flying North American "Mitchell" light bombers (B25's). We had attacked an island airfield, north of Crete, with the Mitchells providing the bombing, and we the fighter escort. Alleviating the never-ending flight over the wave-tops (twenty to fifty feet, as usual) I closed in on the Mitchell I was escorting, and did some formation work.

A crewman appeared in a mid-fuselage gun-window, and beckoned me. Showing off somewhat, I got closer, tucking my right wing in behind the left wing of the bigger aircraft. Beaming, the crewman again beckoned me, appearing quite friendly. I flew in as close as I dared, only a few feet away. The crewmans head disappeared temporarily, and then suddenly reappeared, and he hurled at me a long metal biscuit tin, which I had time to recognise as one of the American issue.

I took violent evasive action as I saw the tin whistle past my starboard propellor. What it might have done to my engine and the aircraft, with consequent effects to me and Bob, made me shudder. And that was from one of our Allies!

Whilst based at the airfield near Benghazi, I was recommended for a Commission. I was then a Flight Sergeant, nearly a year on the Squadron, and very seasoned. On 27th October 1943, wearing my cleanest khaki, shoes polished, stepping carefully over the worst of the claggy puddles caused the previous night by an unusual rainstorm, I made my way to the desert caravan Headquarters of the Air Officer Commanding 201 Group. I had a very pleasant interview with him (name entirely unknown to me after this long time) and went away, confident that I had "put up a good show".

At this time, Bob Pritchard and I had spent well over 240 hours on operational flights, and were looking forward to a rest. We anticipated going home to England, and enjoying some leave before starting a second tour of operations. Bob had been commissioned some months before, while we were at Misurata, and was then a Pilot Officer.

Union Jack

13th May 2016, 15:03

I made my way to the desert caravan Headquarters of the Air Officer Commanding 201 Group. I had a very pleasant interview with him (name entirely unknown to me after this long time) and went away, confident that I had "put up a good show". - Walter603

And here he is - perhaps it's not a total surprise that you could not recall his name, but you certainly seem to have "put up a good show"!:ok:

T A Langford-Sainsbury_P (http://www.rafweb.org/Biographies/Langford-Sainsbury.htm)

Jack

Danny42C

13th May 2016, 16:24

Walter,
...... I felt an intense burning sensation on my right thigh, just above the knee. (I was wearing khaki shorts and shirt)...
Exactly the same happened to me one day. I was bumping along in the back of a canvas tilt 30-cwt on some Burmese bullock track, back open of course, but in this case it was my left thigh (in shorts and shirt, like you ).

A hairy great hornet was sucked in by the turbulence, must've been annoyed by the spin-drier experience he'd just had, landed on my thigh and let me have it ! Hellish at the time - there is a tiny red mark there to this day.
...And that was from one of our Allies!...
I've always found Americans to be the most generous of cousins, but this chap had clearly been out in the sun too long ! I should have pushed my wingtip into his gun-port and squashed the blighter. We had an ATC-er in RAFG in the '60s who had a wooden leg (how was he still in - nobody knew). Had been in the nose of a Boston (I think), when another member of the formation accidentally rammed through the perspex; he lost his leg when the tip hit him. Didn't cramp his style; he had 14 children and occupied two OMQs ! And no, I haven't been drinking, will supply name if anyone PMs me. Must be dead by now - everybody I knew is !
...I had a very pleasant interview with him...
Me, too, with my chap. The 'buzz' was that the criteria were: (a) does he drop his aitches ? and (b) can he use a knife and fork ? I always found that my rare encounters with "stars" were not unpleasant (even when in the nature of: "Cap and gloves on - no chair/coffee or bikky"). It is the "middle management" you had to look out for !

So you managed to get your "crown". Mine didn't come through for six months - in fact my Commission beat it to it - but my commissioning date was a fortnight after the "crown" was due. Never did get the money !

Wonderful stuff, Walter. More ! More ! :ok:

Danny.

MPN11

13th May 2016, 18:48

I continue to sit and read in awe ... thanks again, gentlemen. :ok:

Danny42C

18th May 2016, 14:44

Walter (your #8592),
...Such was the amazing intelligence network of the Germans, that not very long afterwards, we heard that a rebuttal had been made by them, and published in English newspapers, that there was no German officer on the airfield at that date who was entitled to wear the Iron Cross!...
This was a common practice of "Lord Haw-Haw", of infamous memory on the radio during the war years ("Jairmany calling.....!") They would suddenly get hold of some snippet of events not generally known in wartime Britain, and put it on air to convince the gullible that Nazi Intelligence was all-knowing, and thus spread Alarm and Despondency.

His name was William Joyce, and he was captured and (quite properly) hanged for treason after the war. Wiki tells me:
...Joyce's defence team, appointed by the court, argued that, as an American citizen and naturalised German, Joyce could not be convicted of treason against the British Crown. However, the prosecution successfully argued that, since he had lied about his nationality to obtain a British passport and voted in Britain, Joyce owed allegiance to the king...
The colossal irony (which nobody was aware of at the time, or for 50 years after) was that our Bletchley Park had broken into the German "Enigma" code - to the extent that sometimes Churchill had on his desk transcripts of Hitler's orders to one of his Generals in the field before they had reached the General himself !

And (I think) - perhaps Union Jack can confirm - that Navy Intelligence were for some time receiving daily Position Reports from U-boats on station, which helped the anti-submarine war no end !

Danny.

DFCP

18th May 2016, 15:26

Enigma was excellent but what was the status of German code breaking?HavenHavent I read that they were aware of Allied convoy routings?

Hempy

18th May 2016, 15:37

DFCP, see B-Dienst here;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B-Dienst

The problem with the German system was that it was so fragmented that by the time that any any information gathered was passed on to an operational unit, 80% of the time it was too late.

Danny42C

19th May 2016, 13:45

JENKINS (your #8599),

Thanks for the head-up ! Got it on Google (skinflint !).

So: Sqdn Ldr Owen Parry, DFC (RIP). Another good one gone ! (seek not for whom the bell tolls..)

Didn't come into contact with 11 Sqdn, but had been posted out of Assam back to 8 Sqdn in the Arakan before the big Jap offensive. His "airfield on the Imphal Plain" might be Palel. Owen could have been at Blackpool Grammar at the same time as Reg Levy, whom we know well on this Thread; we may have been on the opposite sides of a scrum ! Yes, I was at "Holy Joe's", as you rightly surmise. "Joe's Jailhouse" - hadn't heard that one before, but not a bad description - except that our poor parents had to pay through the nose for it !

Danny.

Danny42C

24th May 2016, 10:17

I feel that this Thread (which has surely been one of the best and most enjoyable on all PPRuNe Forums) is fading away. We can no longer expect any more WWII veterans to join us, and the store of memories from their friends and families, valuable and welcome as it is, must necessarily be limited.

We should be grateful to Cliff Leach [RIP], (who opened it eight years ago), the many contributors since (living and dead), and not forgetting our Moderators, who have allowed us to ramble all over the place on and off Thread, secure in the knowledge that we always come back.

I propose that we keep the Thread alive, but let it fade away. And perhaps one of our "Younger (and not so young) Tigers" will open up with something like "Gaining an RAF Flying Brevet" - it should go like hot cakes.

It's your history now, chaps - we're bowing out.

Danny42C.

EDIT: And Tigresses !

MPN11

24th May 2016, 11:06

OH NOOOOOO!!!

But I completely understand your perspective, Danny ...

... so are you advocating a NEW Thread for more modern stuff? Things with jet engines etc?

Danny42C

24th May 2016, 12:16

MPN11,

A NEW Thread for more modern stuff ? - Yes, indeed !

We old-timers just have to accept the fact that we've had our day. It was a good day, but now it's nearly over.

Of course, I'm not proposing the old Thread be closed, merely that it be allowed to fade away, as old soldiers must. (In any case, it's doing that already !)

Danny.

Taphappy

24th May 2016, 12:35

Would be a great pity if this thread was allowed to just die off. Perhaps just changing the name to "Gaining an RAF Flying Brevet" as suggested by Danny would encourage non pilot aircrew types to join in.

MPN11

24th May 2016, 13:03

but but but ... I don't have any sort of brevet, so why would I want to join in? Oh, wait ... :)

Danny42C

24th May 2016, 16:21

No, Taphappy, I want to leave the existing name as it is, but the new guys 'n gals to have their own playground - if they wish (always subject to our Moderators). One of them can call it whatever he/she likes, my suggestion was just one idea. Who'll open the bowling ?

Fear Not, MPN11, the old "Pilot's Brevet in WWII" will live as long as it has contributors; it has been a Broad Church ever since the beginning and this our old virtual Crewroom in Cyberspace is open to all of Good Will with something relevant to add or a comment to make, or a question to ask.

Danny.

Stanwell

24th May 2016, 17:19

Seems that just recently had not been a good week for your old play-things in Arizona, Danny.

Firstly, that Tracey Whatsaname tried acrobatics (not aerobatics) in the Stearman PT-17 at Winslow.
The poor thing's a bit of a mess - probably a write-off.
It'll take a good rigger, and others, a good while to get that one flying again, I'd think.

Then, the other day, an American Airlines pilot went in (double fatality) in an AT-6 at Falcon Field, Mesa, former home of 4BFTS.
(EFATO?)
Sad.

Danny42C

24th May 2016, 19:35

Stanwell,

Yes, she (they?) made a right hoo-hah of it this time. Could've happened to anyone, I suppose. But when I think what Amy Johnson did when I was a small boy, I feel distinctly underwhelmed by Miss TCT.

But can you tell me what it had (had) in front ? I know it isn't the Continental 220hp 7-pot radial fixed-pitch which was the standard fit in our PT-17s. Could it be a Wasp Junior (with a 2-speed prop) lifted off an old BT-13 ?

The AT-6A did not suffer fools gladly. IIRC, we had three fatalities with them on our course at Advanced School, Selma. It was said that the Spitfire made a good lead-in to it in its Harvard guise !

Danny.

Stanwell

24th May 2016, 20:11

None of her published material seems to say what it is - but, just going from a photo, it does appear to be a Wasp Junior with two-speed prop.

Danny42C

24th May 2016, 21:32

Stanwell,
..."The Spirit of Artemis then started to sink which was not a great scenario"..
Couldn't have been in coarse pitch ? - no, perish the thought !

Danny.

Walter603

25th May 2016, 05:18

We continued our sorties into enemy territory, and on 9th November 1943, we escorted Beaufighters from a sister squadron, No. 252, who were armed with torpedoes, into the Aegean Sea area, once more. Some long way north of Crete, we met a convoy of small armed vessels (gunboats, corvettes) escorting some supply ships and barges. Overhead were two Arado 196 seaplanes doing their escort duty. Arados were versatile armoured aircraft, suitable for fighter escort and for rescue work. We swept in from sea level, and while the 252 Squadron aircraft attacked the shipping with their torpedoes, we took care of the escort.

I saw an Arado diving down on me, from above and straight ahead, guns firing, and instinctively, I rose up to meet him. With my four cannons and six machine guns all firing, the poor chap hadn't much chance. I think it was a case of who was to be the chicken, as we flew straight towards each other. He pulled back the stick, and cleared the top of my aircraft, but then immediately dived down on to the water, where he crashlanded. Another pilot told me afterwards that he had seen the observer's body, hanging over the side of the aircraft, as he was attempting to get out. The pilot was also killed.

I immediately flew off after the second Arado, which turned tail and fled. I fired several times at it, and saw smoke pouring from it, with pieces flying off the wings and fuselage before I left it, heading down towards the sea. Little did I know that my "scrap" with the Huns would prove to be my Nemesis!

Walter603

26th May 2016, 01:16

When we arrived back at Base, my beloved "Z" for Zombie was damaged somewhat. Among other things, an aileron wire had been severed, clean shot through, and I hadn't full wing control. The following day, when we went out on our next raid, I was given a brand new aircraft, just delivered to the Squadron and there hadn't been time even to paint the aircraft identification letters on the fuselage.

We flew out in the same general direction of Cos, Leros and Scarpanto, (now called Karpathos) looking for enemy shipping. Suddenly, a full flight of us was attacked by half-a-dozen ME 109Fs. Not in true British style, but obeying standing orders explicitly, we turned tail and fled - Beaufighters were really no good against single-engined ME 109s. We were no match for that kind of aggression. Alas and alack, I discovered that the brand-new aircraft I had taken out, was alarmingly slow. Whilst the rest of the flight drew rapidly ahead of me, I dropped back just as rapidly (obviously) and became a true "tail-arse Charlie". I banged desperately on the throttles, hoping to get past some imaginary stoppage and put about 50 knots extra airspeed on the cow, but destiny loomed.

The ME's took it in turn to sit on my tail, and use me for target practice. At 20 feet over the wave tops, I jinked and jinked. "Tell me when they're lining up, Bob", I called to my observer, who was cursing in the back seat, and firing vainly with his Vickers 'pop-gun' when the occasion presented itself. He dutifully told me when the time came. Meanwhile, I flew straight and level at best top speed. As soon as the next attack came, I jinked and jinked once more. (Violent movements of the aircraft controls produced uneven flight and spoiled the enemy chances of getting straight shots).

What seemed like an age passed. I think it was all of ten minutes. A couple of the enemy planes ran out of ammo. Eventually, thick smoke filled the cockpit. I saw flames licking over the whole of the starboard wing. I throttled back on that side, feathered the airscrew, found the fire extinguisher button, and pressed hard. It made no difference. We flew on, and still continued burning.

Eyes smarting, unable to see ahead properly, I gave the observer the emergency message, "Dinghy, dinghy, prepare for ditching." I throttled back the port engine, and pancaked on the sea, which was fortunately reasonably calm.

The “Beau” was reputed to float for only five seconds. We had had lots of "dry runs" in the hangar, and in the desert, practising that urgent exit from the cockpit, onto the port wing, pulling the toggle to release the dinghy, and hopping over the side of the wing into the yellow lifesaver. True to life's experience, this one didn't work quite the same.

No sooner had we stopped our forward motion on the water, than the kite stuck down its nose, and plunged deep beneath the waves. I threw back the top of the canopy, and attempted to rise from my seat. Horror! I couldn't move. I tried again. It grew dark around me, so swift was our descent into Neptune's grave. I tried a third time. O Foolish Youth! I remembered this time to pull the pin from my seat strap. Out I popped like a cork from a champagne bottle. Quickly the light returned, and my head broke the surface of the sea.

Bob wasn't far off, and neither was the dinghy. The only good luck that day was that we had obtained an advance model Beaufighter, with an automatically ejecting dinghy. There the luck stopped. The bloody thing was upside down, and only partly inflated. Every attempt to turn it right way up met with failure. It collapsed upon itself, time and time again. We couldn't get at the inflating pump, naturally, until we were able to right it. I think it took about 45 minutes, and by that time poor old Bob (he was 28, and 'granddad' to me) was thoroughly exhausted.

Eventually, we were in it. We were both stained bright yellow from the sea-dye marker, which had also operated automatically, and we sat uncomfortably in several inches of water. The sea-dye, by the way, was a pack of concentrated colouring, tied to the dinghy by a piece of cord, and designed to leave a bright trail of yellow dye in the water, that could be seen from the air by potential rescuers. It was 1500 hours when we were shot down, and the next 18 hours were very miserable. The torn-off starboard wing floated for a long time, about a hundred yards away, and we lost sight of it when it got dark.

kookabat

26th May 2016, 08:45

Wow, Walter.

Just wow.

:ok:

Fionn101

26th May 2016, 11:16

It certainly feels as if we are all in that cold wet dinghy together.

Gripping story Walter, keep it coming and thank you for sharing.

Fionn

John Eacott

26th May 2016, 11:54

When we arrived back at Base, my beloved "Z" for Zombie was damaged somewhat.

And is this photo close enough Dad? X X-ray, maybe even a 603 kite, complete with inflated dinghy alongside the port wing! Dad also omitted to mention that his other bit of 'luck' was that the automatic dinghy was in the port engine nacelle and the starboard engine was the one that caught fire after being hit by the Me109s :D

Plus another in the dust of the desert, 252 Sqn at Magrun, Libya.

Danny42C

26th May 2016, 15:55

Walter,

There's plenty of life in old Threads yet ! And now we're all agog to learn how you were rescued - for obviously you must've been - or there would have been no story (and no Walter and Bob !). Seem to remember that the official acknowledgement to "Dinghy, Dinghy !" was "Splash, Splash !" (?)

Never was keen on flying over water - think it better left to the matelots and seagulls - and my only experience of dinghies was in drills with the one-man "K" Dinghy (much easier to turn over !) in a heated swimming pool.

Surprised about the seat pin - were they still using the old Sutton Harness in the Beau as late as that?

Been off line for a while (infirmities of age) but back now (I hope !) Looking forward eagerly to your Part II.

and

John,

Nice pics - and as you say - your Dad was lucky the dinghy was in the left (right !) nacelle !

Cheers both, Danny.

GlobalNav

27th May 2016, 17:59

@Danny42C
"We old-timers just have to accept the fact that we've had our day. It was a good day, but now it's nearly over."

Danny, if you guys hadn't done so well with the war you were given, we, who followed, wouldn't have had our day. SALUTE and happy Memorial Day to all who had a day!

MPN11

27th May 2016, 19:26

Well said, GlobalNav .... and we're sorry we didn't get to DC for Memorial Day this year.

But, for all of us [yes, even the young ones] the sand still keeps running through that bloody hour-glass, and there's nothing we can do to stop it. And I suspect we have all added a bit of value to the world at large. It's Danny's generation that "[I]had so many opportunities to do so much for so many in innumerable different ways" ;)

GlobalNav

27th May 2016, 19:41

"It's Danny's generation that "had so many opportunities to do so much for so many in innumerable different ways"

Yes, and inspired many of us who followed. It's a privilege to have been able to serve alongside others, as well. Many are serving even now.

savimosh01

29th May 2016, 17:51

Savimosh01

Thanks for the information concerning the "missing month" in my memoirs from March '43. Yes, Bob Harvey rings a bell, but I cannot connect it to a face. It would seem that the short detachment to Dohazari was primarily for publicity purposes (at a time when the VV squadrons were badly in need of it).

All the people named are well remembered by me. F/Sgt George Davies was the chap who had to bale out with his crewman from a one-legged Vengeance (come to think of it, I cannot think of another bale-out on 110 from a VV).

Danny42C
Reg Duncan told me that on Jan. 2, 1944 Sgt P.J. Charman's Vengeance had engine trouble. He ordered P/O Skelton to bail out, then went down with the plane. On May 8, 1944 Rodney Topley was running low on fuel and ordered Dave Cummin to bail out. Dave's son George shared the ordeal of his Dad's return to base. My father almost bailed out. His pilot was shouting, "Pump her, pump, pump!" In reference to the backup pump. Dad thought he said, "Jump, jump!"

Danny42C

29th May 2016, 20:47

Savimosh01 (your #8618),
...On May 8, 1944 Rodney Topley was running low on fuel and ordered Dave Cummin to bail out. Dave's son George shared the ordeal of his Dad's return to base. "My father almost bailed out. His pilot was shouting, "Pump her, pump, pump!" In reference to the backup pump. Dad thought he said, "Jump, jump!"...
Flt Lt Topley was "A" Flight Commander of 110 Squadron (and acting CO for some time until Sqn Ldr Penny took over in November '43, shortly before I was posted across to 8 Sqdn (IAF). Dave Cummin I don't remember, probably on "B" Flight and may have been posted in after I left.

Surprised that they were still getting fuel feed problems as late as May '44 (the very end), as I thought that had been fixed the year before. My Post p.130 #2591 tells the tale.

Cheers, Danny.

PS: What's happened to Post #8619 ? EDIT 301111 - Fixed !: this is now #8619.

NigG

31st May 2016, 20:14

I throttled back the port engine, and pancaked on the sea, which was fortunately reasonably calm.

No sooner had we stopped our forward motion on the water, than the kite stuck down its nose, and plunged deep beneath the waves. I threw back the top of the canopy, and attempted to rise from my seat. Horror! I couldn't move. I tried again. It grew dark around me, so swift was our descent into Neptune's grave.

Amazing tale, Walter603. As I read it I was gripping my seat, dry-mouthed and heart pumping! It must be an extract from your book?! :) I'm no pilot, but have seen a bit of wartime training footage where the correct procedure for ditching was being put across to pilots. As I recall, half-flap was critical, rather than the instinctive full flap, or you'd go nose-in and flip or cartwheel. Waves were seriously bad news.. if they were (linear) large swells, it was important to ditch parallel to them, along their length, not into them. You must have done an excellent job of your ditch, in that you were both conscious and uninjured. What an incredible adventure. Utterly scary and then euphoric, I guess. :ok:

Danny42C

31st May 2016, 20:52

NigG,

Amen to that ! But I'm starting to worry a bit. Walter has been bobbing about with Bob in a cold and wet Mediterranean for five days now, and no word. Hope he's all right - but then son John would tell us if it were not so.

Don't think a VV was ever ditched. The consensus was that it would do so badly because of its shape, and probably dive straight down. Better to bale out and trust to parachute and dinghy. Arthur must have mulled over this possibility a lot, for 84 did many anti-submarine sweeps from around Madras, Ceylon and various places, whereas the other squadrons operated only over land AFAIK.

Danny.

John Eacott

31st May 2016, 22:27

Dad is bumbling around darkest Norfolk at the moment, visiting the Old Dart. No doubt there'll be another instalment soon :D

Octane

31st May 2016, 23:38

Hi John,

The 2nd Beaufighter (engines running) appears to have unusual nose armament. Looks like a single monster cannon.. Any idea?

Cheers

Octane

Stanwell

1st Jun 2016, 04:38

Yes, I'd noticed that mod when I'd seen that photo previously. It had me scratching my head.
There's definitely not enough room in that part of the nose of a Beau for anything like a cannon.
Hopefully, Walter or John will be able to help with one of 'life's little mysteries'.

Octane

1st Jun 2016, 05:41

Hi Stanwell,
The Beau at the top of the Wikipedia page has the same feature....

Stanwell

1st Jun 2016, 06:13

Yes, so I see.
I'd also asked a mate who's a bit of a Beau buff (his old man was with 30 Sqn, RAAF) and it's a mystery to him, too.
You see, if you take the nose cone off, you're looking at the rudder pedals.
The Oz nose-mounted camera (if fitted) was behind a flush Perspex panel.
I guess we'll have to await Walter's return.
.

John Eacott

1st Jun 2016, 08:22

Best guess? Camera mount. There are a few images around with varying nose mods

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3220/4566566294_bb2007545d.jpg

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii120/Duggy009/Bristol-Beaufighter.jpg

http://www.aussiemodeller.com.au/Images/Review/RedRoo_misc/MEC1704_S.jpg

http://www.eacott.com.au/gallery/d/7658-1/Beaufighter+nose.jpg

http://combatace.com/uploads/monthly_12_2015/post-8289-0-05945100-1450782111.jpg

Stanwell

1st Jun 2016, 08:34

Thanks, John. :ok:

Hempy

1st Jun 2016, 13:28

This is a pretty good doco on the Beau. Lots of gun camera footage and interviews (1hr 28min).

psUvAUw37D8

savimosh01

1st Jun 2016, 15:44

Savimosh01 (your #8618),

Flt Lt Topley was "A" Flight Commander of 110 Squadron (and acting CO for some time until Sqn Ldr Penny took over in November '43, shortly before I was posted across to 8 Sqdn (IAF). Dave Cummin I don't remember, probably on "B" Flight and may have been posted in after I left.

Surprised that they were still getting fuel feed problems as late as May '44 (the very end), as I thought that had been fixed the year before. My Post p.130 #2591 tells the tale.

Cheers, Danny.

PS: What's happened to Post #8619 ? EDIT 301111 - Fixed !: this is now #8619.
I have a 110 Squadron photo taken at Quetta July 1942. There is a P/O Cummin(s). Could be someone with the same last name of course. I also have a photo of 'B' Flight taken sometime after my father joined the squadron in late 1943 where he is standing beside Dave Cummin. Rodney Topley flew the majority of his sorties with Tom Payne prior to flying a number with Dave Cummin. About his father running low on fuel, John Topley told me his father wrote in his log book about diverting to and landing at Silchar with an "eggcup of petrol" to spare.

Danny42C

1st Jun 2016, 21:22

savimosh01,

Flew with a Sgt Payne (Tom?) on 10 January, 26 April, 6 and 8 May '43 (all training sorties).
...John Topley told me his father wrote in his log book about diverting to and landing at Silchar with an "eggcup of petrol" to spare...
Bit of a puzzle here. Diverting from where ? Silchar is Khumbirgram and 110 were based there then:
...Silchar Airport, Kumbhirgram - Wikimapia
Silchar Airport, Kumbhirgram Silchar Airport is a Civil Enclave within the Indian Air Force Station/Base at Kumbhirgram...
Don't think there was an airstrip at Silchar town (12-14 mi). It was our railhead.

Danny.

savimosh01

2nd Jun 2016, 03:53

Hi Danny,

I wish I had found Tom Payne before he passed away in 2007.

The British built an alternative airfield at Silchar in 1944. From Dave Cummin's son George Cummin - Cummin floats over never-ending glistening green jungle when he hears the plane's engine sputter to life again, while at the same time wondering who his potential welcoming committee will be - Nagas or Japanese. After touching down, he trudges a mile or two in the stifling heat before meeting some Nagas who take him to their village where curious tribes-people have a good look over him, but no one speaks English. For the first and last time, Cummin draws his hand gun, firing into the air in order to inspire the Nagas to escort him to a road. Waiting by the side of the road, a truck finally comes into view, but Cummin cannot be sure if it is driven by the British or Japanese. He is much relieved to be taken to Silchar and reunited with Topley. Cummin's log book shows them flying back to base at 10.10 the next day, but Cummin's ordeal is not over. They are greeted by fellow Squadron members who howl with laughter at Cummin's misfortune.

Sara

Remember Me: No. 110 (Hyderabad) Squadron Royal Air Force
Welcome! (http://www.artbookbindery.net/rememberme.html)

topgas

3rd Jun 2016, 17:15

Apologies if this has already been posted, but I couldn't find it with a search of the thread.

I came across this article in the Canadian "Legion" magazine https://legionmagazine.com/en/2014/09/the-forgotten-flyers/ and pics

A Vultee Vengeance dive-bombs targets near a railway bridge in Burma
https://legionmagazine.com/en/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/halidday1.jpg
Photo Imperial War Museum
and Canadian members relaxing in the 110 Sqn Officers Mess
https://legionmagazine.com/en/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/halliday3.jpg
Photo Canadian War Museum

Fareastdriver

3rd Jun 2016, 19:06

Those dive brakes are pretty impressive.

Danny42C

3rd Jun 2016, 20:13

savimosh01 (your #8632),
...The British built an alternative airfield at Silchar in 1944...
Accept this without hesitation (after my time, I left in November, 1943).
...to take him [Dave Cummin] to their village where curious tribes-people have a good look over him, but no one speaks English. For the first and last time, Cummin draws his hand gun, firing into the air in order to inspire the Nagas to escort him to a road...
Not necessary. The Naga villagers were favourable to the British (and he should have known that). In any case, in his side pack he would have leaflets (Chugalug has produced a copy of a leaflet we all carried on 'ops'- see "Pilot's Brevet" p.150 #2994). These told the recipients who we were and what to do with us. (and more on this in ibid p.137 #2726 ).
...[Cummin] floats over never-ending glistening green jungle when he hears the plane's engine sputter to life again...
Topley cannot have had a fuel pump failure (as he would think he had - when he called "Pump"). But the engine would not then have "sputtered into life" without the wobble-pump working, he was now the only one to do it, he needs three hands, he hasn't got them. He could have kept flying "like a one-armed paper-hanger", but a normal, powered landing would be out of the question. But he got it down at Silchar (what was wrong with Khumbirgram, I wonder). There would have been one possibility. Fly it into a position from which he could do a "dead-stick" landing without power and let the engine die. Glide landings were discouraged, because of the way a VV would "mush" into the ground at round-out, but if you put on another 15-20mph over the fence, it would wheel-in well enough (stopping at the far end might be problematic !)

Danny.

Danny42C

3rd Jun 2016, 21:21

topgas (#8633),
Thank you for the link. Followed it up, and found:
...FO Anthony J. Davies of Lloydminster............. His luck ran out Dec. 17, 1943, when he was returning to Kumbhirgram airfield from a mission He probably did not know that a 250-pound bomb had “hung up” on the port wing. As he landed the bomb fell off. It exploded, wrecking the aircraft and instantly killing Davies along with his RAF gunner...
We already knew it was not Reg Duncan, now we know who it was (I was not there at the time).

More on this tomorrow. Danny.

NigG

3rd Jun 2016, 22:27

topgas and John Eacott

John...excellent photo of the Beau... I found myself reaching for my Mae West! Topgas... sensational pic of the Vengeance in an attacking dive.. it makes me dizzy just to look at it! Thanks both! :)

Danny42C

4th Jun 2016, 12:34

John Eacott (#8627),
...Best guess? Camera mount. There are a few images around with varying nose mods...
Looks like Dumbo after a trunkotomy !

Now congratulations on a beautiful album of photographs ! To quote a Poster long ago: "That is one horny aeroplane !"
.....................................

topgas (#8633),

Two nice and very interesting pictures - thank you !
...A Vultee Vengeance dive-bombs targets near a railway bridge in Burma...
This is intriguing in several respects. He seems to be near vertical (though photographs can be deceptive) with dive brakes out. If he's come down from high, with 300 on the clock, then he's going to die in about 2-3 seconds, for he's far too low for pull-out.

As we have a photograph, he must have started fairly low (and slow !). His aim is clearly well off to (his) right of the bridge, so what does he intend doing ? Swing wide round left on pull-out after his leader (?), who is having a go at the bridge from what I judge to be the East. His shadow (?) on the river bank shows about 45°. Most targets round there would be about
20° N, so in midwinter at noon that would be about right.

In the link you give, the picture is captioned "A Vultee Vengeance dive-bombs targets near a railway bridge in Burma". Near a bridge ? Why not the bridge itself (it appears intact) ? One reason might be we hoped to occupy the ground quite soon, and wanted to keep the use of the bridge (it would be a forlorn hope, the Jap engineers would surely blow it).

No bombs have gone down yet - no white puffs in sight.

............................................

Fareastdriver (#8634),
...Those dive brakes are pretty impressive...
Always worked fine - provided you had hydraulic fluid ! They could be hand-pumped in or out, so if the pressure failed, you could pump closed. No fluid - you were up creek without paddle. Might be able to maintain level flight at full bore with them out (never tried it !), but landing would be hairy (and you'd have no undercarriage either). Best abandon ship.

Subsidiary use: back rests/grab handles for ground crew taking rides on wing between dispersals.

.............................................

(Back to topgas)

Second picture:

No recollection of this (can't have been around at the time) What was the gift ? and what is the significance of "No.6" ? (Any idea of place or date?)

Faces vaguely familiar, but - so many faces, so long ago ! None of them is "Red" McInnis, and I don't see Reg Duncan there, either.

Cheers, all,

Danny.

savimosh01

4th Jun 2016, 20:24

You'll see a few 110 (Hyderabad) Squadron photos in my album. Includes Reg Duncan, Rodney Topley and Dave Cummin.

http://www.pprune.org/members/306557-savimosh01-albums-110-sqn-raf.html

savimosh01

4th Jun 2016, 20:37

Topgas
Your post 8633

Thanks very much for the article by Hugh Halliday and the excellent photographs. Funny, the same day you posted them, the daughter of a 110 (Hyderabad) Squadron WAG, Eric P. Baldwin, sent me the first photo. Some years ago I emailed Hugh Halliday who replied with info on the Squadron along with names of some of the Canadian aircrew.

Re: Your post

F/O Anthony John Davies, RCAF, age 26, from Lloydminster, Saskatchewan
F/O John David Ernest Robertson, age 23, from Lee, London

Source: F/Sgt Reg Duncan, RCAF, from Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, Pilot, 110 Squadron
Source: Bob Harvey from England (still living, age 98)

Twelve Vengeances of 110 Squadron attack targets at Teinkayu on the afternoon of Dec. 17, 1943. The CO flies in front and Reg Duncan, because of his experience, leads the formation, flying the worst possible position, which is very difficult. "You were just like a seagull flying backwards. When you go into the formation the CO waggles his wings and you just throttle back and the other guys throttle back and you all move back together. You are flying very close."

Tony Davies, Reg's wingman, goes into a dive and gets a bomb hung up on his wing. Reg's navigator, Bob Harvey, signals under radio silence to Davies letting him know about the bomb. Reg then signals to Davies to break off from the formation. Davies breaks off, goes into a dive, hauls back, and climbs out of the dive, trying to shake the bomb loose. No luck. He tries once more, again without success. Davies gives Reg the okay and rejoins the formation, putting the bomb release in his cockpit on 'safe'.

On return to base, eight dive-bombers come into land. After what happens next, the remaining four are diverted to Silchar and Sylhet. In that type of situation Reg said, "As soon as you land, you give it hell and go down to the far end of the runway to let the rest of the boys get in." When Reg touches down and starts his cockpit drill, he hears his navigator say, "My God, Reg." Reg looks up and sees a pile of black smoke and thinks the Japanese have followed them in. No, it is Tony Davies and his navigator, Jackie Robertson. "We scooped them up and buried them the next day."

Stanwell

4th Jun 2016, 20:46

Danny,
Re topgas's second picture...
While we're waiting for the full answers to your questions, perhaps I could shed a little light on two of them:

What was the gift?
The gift from the Nizam was a complete squadron of Airco DH.9As.
They entered service with 110 Sqn around June 1918.

What is the significance of "No 6" ?
That inscription panel displayed in the frame would have been cut from 'Aircraft No 6' of that gift before it went to the boneyard.

Looking forward to topgas giving us the full story.

Danny42C

4th Jun 2016, 22:00

savimosh (#8639),

Tried it on Internet Explorer and Google Chrome. Both gave me empty boxes. Probably just me !
Not to worry - thanks for the link just the same.

Danny.

Geordie_Expat

4th Jun 2016, 22:11

savimosh (#8639),

Tried it on Internet Explorer and Google Chrome. Both gave me empty boxes. Probably just me !
Not to worry - thanks for the link just the same.

Danny.

Not just you, Danny, getting nothing either.

savimosh01

4th Jun 2016, 23:01

savimosh (#8639),

Tried it on Internet Explorer and Google Chrome. Both gave me empty boxes. Probably just me !
Not to worry - thanks for the link just the same.

Danny.
How about viewing my public profile? The photo album is on that page.

savimosh01

5th Jun 2016, 00:08

Rodney Topley & Dave Cummin

savimosh01

5th Jun 2016, 00:09

Reg Duncan

Danny42C

5th Jun 2016, 13:38

Stanwell (#8641),
...Re topgas's second picture...
While we're waiting for the full answers to your questions, perhaps I could shed a little light on two of them:

What was the gift?
The gift from the Nizam was a complete squadron of Airco DH.9As.
They entered service with 110 Sqn around June 1918.

What is the significance of "No 6" ?
That inscription panel displayed in the frame would have been cut from 'Aircraft No 6' of that gift before it went to the boneyard...
As to the "Gift", I anticipated some new goodies, but it was an old friend. Four years ago, in one of my Posts, I mentioned it. I cannot trace it now (or, to be exact, neither PPRuNe [predictably] nor Google can trace it), so from memory, here goes:
"The Nizam of Hydrabad, reputedly the richest man in the world had stumped up out of petty cash enough to buy a whole squadron of DH9s for the R.F.C. in WW1. In return, his crest, a tiger's head, was painted on their plywood sides.

The artist had endowed the animal with a mournful expression; the troops called it "The Constipated Tiger".

One such crest had been cut out of a crash and was carried round everywhere by the Squadron as a sort of talisman. ... As to the "Tiger" panel, it must be stored somewhere still if the white ants didn't get at it".

Note that I did not say that I had actually seen this 'talisman', for I had not. What I had written in those early days, I declared to be be "Hearsay", saying "I had no means then, and have no means now of verifying the truth of what I'm writing" (or words to that effect). I'd never even heard of Wikipedia then !

So now I can say that I had never seen the magnificent cabinet that now (presumably) houses this relic (why didn't they open the doors and display it ?). How come the white ants hadn't eaten that as well ? (the speed at which white ants [termites] can demolish wood is quite impressive).

As for the chaps, they look vaguely familiar...but cannot put a name to any.... So many names, so long ago.....

Thanks, Danny.

Danny42C

5th Jun 2016, 14:09

Savimosh01 (#8645/6),

Thank you !

"Topper" all right - don't know Dave Cummin at all (would not forget a chap of such striking appearance). Bit puzzled by the uniforms, though (don't they look smart ! - get those creases on the slacks). First thought: they're in blues. But no belt, so must be tropical tunics. Who ever saw KD as smooth as that? Could they have become "Gabardine Swine" ? (another old story).

And of course, dear old Reg Duncan, my old mentor, who sent me off in a VV after a twenty minute ride in the back (but I had stick, rudders and a throttle, but little else). Looks younger than I remember.

Danny.

EDIT: Savimosh, In my haste to get my part in this Tread up to date, I've unpardonably overlooked your #8640.... Horror ! So F/O Robertson (Nav) was the back seat victim. As P/O Robertson, he flew as my crewman on my three first ops over Akyab (Akyab Jail, Narigan bridge and Bume radio station) in May '43. Nice chaps both (RIP).

And that was "what was wrong with Khumbirgram" !

Reverting to your shot of "Topper" and Dave, what have they got in their right hands ? My guess - pipes (we all sported them in those days, thought they made us look more relaxed and debonair !)

D.

Fareastdriver

5th Jun 2016, 14:10

When we folded 110 Sqn in 1971 I cannot remember there being any mementoes pictured in this thread. Apart from the standard there was hardly anything.

MPN11

5th Jun 2016, 14:39

Fareastdriver ... sadly I suspect many fine old Squadrons with distinguished records disappeared into oblivion back then. Perhaps it's only now, in the 21st C, that some of us are realising what was lost.

topgas

5th Jun 2016, 18:34

Looking forward to topgas giving us the full story.

Unfortunately I have nothing to add to the Mess picture - it was just one I found in the link I gave.
A bit more digging on the IWM website for the first picture, of the Vengeance in action, has revealed that it is a "Still from film shot by the RAF Film Production Unit, showing Vultee Vengeances of No. 110 Squadron RAF dive-bombing targets near a railway bridge over a river in Burma. The extended dive-brakes on the wing of the aircraft from which the film was shot." Now, if that film was still around, it would be worth seeing. There is also refernece in the archive to a film made in late 1944 of 8 Sqn IAF

A couple more photos from the IWM archive

http://media.iwm.org.uk/iwm/mediaLib/52/media-52537/large.jpg?action=e&cat=photographs[/url]
ROYAL AIR FORCE OPERATIONS IN THE FAR EAST, 1941-1945.. © IWM (CI 334)[/url]IWM Non Commercial Licence (http://www.iwm.org.uk/corporate/privacy-copyright/licence)
Completed Vultee Vengeance Mark Is await the fitting of airscrews after assembly at No. 1 (India) Maintenance Unit, Drigh Road, India. The nearest aircraft, AN796, eventually served with No. 110 Squadron RAF.

http://media.iwm.org.uk/iwm/mediaLib/23/media-23111/large.jpg?action=e&cat=photographs (http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205127118?cat=photographs)
AMERICAN AIRCRAFT IN ROYAL AIR FORCE SERVICE, 1939-1945: VULTEE MODEL 72 VENGEANCE.. © IWM (ATP 12042F) (http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205127118?cat=photographs)IWM Non Commercial Licence (http://www.iwm.org.uk/corporate/privacy-copyright/licence)
Vengeance Mark II, AN609: instrument panel and pilot's controls.

dogle

5th Jun 2016, 19:58

Thanks topgas for those splendid photographs.

Whoops, here we go again ..... the (still unresolved) Mystery of the Two Balls .... which has much intrigued me, although I recall thinking that Beagle was pretty close to the money with his earlier observation on this teaser.

(Ducks behind tea-swindle table to escape hail of small missiles incoming from around the stove).

I'll offer my own two-penn'orth later, when the supply of ready-use ammunition has dwindled ...

BlackadderIA

5th Jun 2016, 20:30

When we folded 110 Sqn in 1971 I cannot remember there being any mementoes pictured in this thread. Apart from the standard there was hardly anything.

Isn't there a central store somewhere that holds all the old silver etc of various disbanded squadrons?

Saying that, it would have had to had made it there in the first place - I opened a random filing cabinet the other day hunting for some maps and found about 30 pewter tankards from 1943-44. Next drawer down had assorted squadron sporting trophies from the 1920s!

Fareastdriver

5th Jun 2016, 20:53

There was and maybe still is. I think the policy in recent years is to offer it around what's left of the RAF. I do not want to believe it but I was told the rest was disposed of.

A story I was told that after the WWII when hundreds of squadrons were disbanded their silver was stored in a hanger at Mildenhall. One day some NCOs turned up with a couple of three tonners and a requisition order. They loaded a fair amount in the back and went on their way. A couple of days later two war surplus three-tonners were found abandoned in a field-minus silverware.

MPN11

6th Jun 2016, 07:22

The great silver store was at RAF Quedgeley (7 MU) ... where it went after closure in 1995 I have no idea.

Danny42C

6th Jun 2016, 12:38

topgas (#8651),

Now you've really given me something to get my teeth into !

Started researching Pic 2. soon found myself in way over my head !

What wonderful clarity in the pics ! Nitpicks as follows:

First Pic:
...ROYAL AIR FORCE OPERATIONS IN THE FAR EAST, 1941-1945.. © IWM (CI 334)[/url]IWM Non Commercial Licence

Completed Vultee Vengeance Mark Is await the fitting of airscrews after assembly at No. 1 (India) Maintenance Unit, Drigh Road, India. The nearest aircraft, AN796, eventually served with No. 110 Squadron RAF...
Correct (I thought they were assembled at Mauripur, but that's only a few miles down the road from Drigh Rd (Karachi). Peter C. Smith tells me that they were Vultee built under British Contract (ie, we'd paid for the things at around $63,000 each - they were not Lend-Lease).

Checked log, never flew it. What's that thing sticking out of stbd leading edge ? No, not gun but blast tube down which gun (well back in wing) fired. Why is it not back in wing where it belongs ? Don't know. (There is a possible explanation: it had been test fired, the gun mountings were not up to the job, the gun started to dance about, first sign was rounds clipping side of tube, edging it out. If this sign was ignored, rounds started coming out all over leading edge. Not good).

Second Pic. Oh, boy!"
...AMERICAN AIRCRAFT IN ROYAL AIR FORCE SERVICE, 1939-1945: VULTEE MODEL 72 VENGEANCE.. © IWM (ATP 12042F)IWM Non Commercial Licence

Vengeance Mark II, AN609: instrument panel and pilot's controls...
Vultee built under British Contract (P.C.S) as before. Or rather would be if it were AN609 - but it ain't ! This is no Mark II panel. I am well familiar with the panels in Mks. I-III; they were all the same (they were US A-31s). They were nothing like this.

This nightmare of a panel crops up all over the place, with minor alterations. It (or a close cousin) appears in Peter C. Smith's "Vengeance" in Page 3, and in his Appendix 5, in which a drawing appears of the thing. (This does not inspire confidence, as the index to the Appendix makes no mention of any Manifold Pressure Gauge !) Long time ago some kind soul on this Post turned up (cf P.366 #7309, in which we were trying to trace it) for us a a copy the Pilot's Notes of the panel in the Mk.IVs (US-35s) supplied to the RAF and RAAF for conversion into target tugs. There it was again !

I believe it to be the panel in the Camden Museum specimen (can any Sydney reader have a look for us and check ?)

I have never even seen a Mk.IV (A-35). I do not know what the panel looked like. On the basis of the fact that it looked nothing like a Mks. I-III (A-31) panel, I declared it must be a Mark IV. I think the truth of the matter is that nobody alive knows what a Mk.IV panel looked at; this is the only picture available, so it is trotted out on every occasion.

Some of you may recall that we have reluctantly accepted that EZ999 (in Camden) is, or at least started out as, a pukka Mk.I. But it spent most of its life as a training fuselage for the engineering students at technical college, obviously they pulled the panel out, the trainee instrument mechs did their worst with it, then it was stuck in a corner and forgoten for years until the Camden rebuild started. Then they found the sorry wreck, stuck in all sorts of bits willy-nilly, and voila ! - a Mk.I panel.

All this was worse confounded by the Museum, which having found a genuine Mk.I carcase, then went to considerable trouble (eg fitting a 0.50 with matching end section of a canopy, instead of the 2x 0.303s which were the right Mk.I fit) to disguise it as a Mk.IV - and caused Posters on this Thread no end of hard work to unscramble the facts.

Clear, so far ?

Now we can have a good look at your brilliant pic. Like the rather basic way in which they've "wired-off" the standard US 5-position ignition switch (shackle it to the altimeter setting knob !) At least what looks like the manifold pressure and rev. clocks are in the right place - but look at the triple gauge (down on the right). The two little dials at the bottom (fuel and oil pressure) show one at max and t'other at zero. This is scrap !

I cannot account for the clearly bolt-on rig at the bottom of the panel (with a hole in the middle for the beam of a reflector gunsight to pass through) and a whole lot of switches on the left. And of course, our old pal the "double ball" (WHY ? - if there's one instrument on the panel, which can't fail, it's the "ball").

I feel eyes glazing over,

Danny...:*

EDIT: PS: Yes, dogle - the two-ball argument is alive and well !

savimosh01

6th Jun 2016, 18:39

Hello Danny,

Thanks very much for your reply #8648 with regard to the photos (happy you like them). It's very good to have some details about uniforms, etc.

I don't know the names of the attached 110 Squadron airmen. Do you happen to recognize them?

Sara

Fareastdriver

6th Jun 2016, 19:08

I wouldn't have thought so. It looks as if they are underneath a Mosquito's Merlin engine so it would be later than Danny's time.

Danny42C

6th Jun 2016, 19:47

Sara,

This is a tricky one, I think I know know the face of the Sqn Ldr (?) on the right. But who was he ? No idea.

But there are clues. His crewman (?) on the left is a Captain (the shoulder strap has come off, but you can make out the three pips). So a South African. That should narrow it down. Can we identify the aircraft ? Clearly, not a Vengeance, but what ? First thought "Spitfire", but that bulge on the side of the nose doesn't look right. But clearly a Merlin. And we do know where the ground power is plugged in (can't be a Spit XIV, as I think they were all Coffman-started).

Come on, all you budding Sherlock Holmes - go to work on this !

Not much help, I'm afraid.

Danny.

EDIT: Of course, a Mossie (why didn't I think of that ?) Thanks, FED.

D.

Danny42C

6th Jun 2016, 21:10

Got this. Not very clear, but the same thing, Danny !http://i924.photobucket.com/albums/ad89/AirMinistry/InstrumentPanelLeftSide_small.jpg

savimosh01

6th Jun 2016, 21:58

Thanks Danny and FED for response to my 8657. That helps - from period 110 Squadron converted to Mosquitos. I know someone who can help me identify.

Another photo for you Danny. Enjoy!

Sara

savimosh01

6th Jun 2016, 22:06

From Tommy Lawton's photo album. He and his pilot Hoagy (Billie) Carmichael died on Dec. 10, 1942 in Vultee Vengeance Y120 in a practice dive over Karachi Harbour.

MPN11

7th Jun 2016, 10:00

Junior Spotter Question ... what are those 'handles' outboard on each side of the VV cockpit? The ones that look like the ends of a motorcycle's handlebars?

Are they just ... "handles, holding on to, pilots for the use of"?

John Eacott

7th Jun 2016, 10:07

MPN11

7th Jun 2016, 10:22

Ah, copied. Floodlighting the panel being cheaper and easier than illuminating individual items.

I know nothing about cockpit lighting ... and nothing about a lot of other things too ;)

dogle

7th Jun 2016, 10:24

WW II was a time of immense industrial activity, in which vast numbers of civilians suddenly found themselves doing completely unfamilar jobs in pursuit of the War Effort.

My late father was one such. Like so many others he said very little about those sombre days but, just once, he mentioned his inner satisfaction in the part he was able to play in reducing from weeks to days the time to send vital industrial data across the Atlantic when the PTB considered this to be a most urgent necessity. (That data was the means to enable production of the Merlin engine, and the period was that darkest one when highly unwelcome visitors could be expected to come dropping in down Sinfin Lane without notice, but for the outcome of the Battle of Britain).

It is ironic that whilst Dad had deep analytical insight (and was one of those who disdained to use a calculating machine because he could sum a foolscap column of figures more quickly in his head), he was quite blind in all matters mechanical. It bears upon my thesis to mention that he had the gravitas, and sheer impudence, to challenge traditional procedures in that task despite his complete ignorance, as an outsider, of the underlying technology. This was exceptional, really Not Done; these were very much the days of "you do what you're told".

I therefore suspect strongly that the Two Balls were simply an error which arose under the pell-mell pace of war production, when a tyro scribbly doing his best hastily to assemble the specifications was quite unaware of the difference in manufacturers' nomenclature and dutifully included both a "direction indicator" and a "turn and slip indicator", never having the slightest idea of what they did or how they were to be used.

Of course, in a perfect world such a gross mistake would be spotted and corrected ... but this was the world of Wartime production. Now, when in peacetime it has been my duty from time to time to sign off reams of technical documentation, it has generally arrived when I have but ~ 15% of the time I would really like to peruse it, and I have often had to rely on that subconscious prompting, that uneasy 'summat wrong here!' feeling (which I am sure is well familiar to highly experienced doctors, auditors, policemen and not least Spitfire-trained VAT inspectors) to nail the errors. This worked remarkably well for me, but the long experience needed for it to happen must have been pretty thin on the ground in the suddenly-expanded war production workforce.

It is thus easy for me to envisage such an erroneous specification attracting the requisite squadron of approval signatures, all applied in haste .... and once so endorsed the thing acquires the status of Holy Writ, not to be queried ever after.

I so rest my case:-

"Some one had blunder'd:
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do ..."

Danny42C

7th Jun 2016, 12:41

dogle,

A sensitive and comprehensive analsis of the problem. My reading of the panel was: someone had 'had away' the original D.I. (which was the usual kind with no ball). Find another ! They found a new pattern deluxe job (with ball) that fitted the hole. Put that in, job done. A 'one-off' - or so I thought !

It was not long before it was gently pointed out to me that this was by no means unique. First up was a pic of that tragic WWII "Tomahawk"/P-40 found in the Sahara desert only a year or so ago (with dessicated corpse of pilot). Two balls in full view on panel. Since then I have come across several other examples in different types of aircraft.

Someone must think that there is an advantage in this duplication. I am a reasonable soul. Can somebody please tell me what it is ?

Danny,

PS:
♫...."My name is Samuel Hall, and I've only got one"....♫ (No more - it's before the Watershed !) D.

Danny42C

7th Jun 2016, 21:08

Sara (#8662),

Thank you for the interesting pics, which relate to the months in 1941 (?) and summer 1942, when the old Blenheim crews of the four squadrons had been sent out to India to help stop the seemingly unstoppable Japanese onslaught. All well before my time - but I remember the pool at Quetta, it was a godsend when I arrived there with 8 IAF in summer 1944.

They were not reinforced until the end of the year, when a batch of new pilots (including yours truly), straight out from Spitfire and Hurricane OCUs in the UK, landed in India and the four squadrons got half-a dozen of these each. Coincidentally, the Vengeance arrived on the scene (to replace their Blenheims which had been sent back to the ME); the RAF had no idea how to operate these novel aircraft; the mixed bag of old, battle hardened Blenheim crews and the (bitterly disappointed) new fighter boys (who had dreams of fame and glory in a "Battle of India") had to learn by trial and error.
...died on Dec. 10, 1942 in Vultee Vengeance Y120 in a practice dive over Karachi Harbour...
The Japs inflicted little damage on the VVs during 1943-44, we mostly killed ourselves. The "speared in" from a dive accounted for most of the losses. Probably the OTU which was set up in Peshawar was responsible for the majority, as might have been expected. The squadrons had developed the operational technique for the high-level vertical dive, as I have described, it worked very well but had a safety margin of 2½ seconds built in at the pull-out point. This was quite enough, but only if you kept your wits about you.

Danny.

Danny42C

8th Jun 2016, 10:55

dogle (#8666),
...and not least Spitfire-trained VAT inspectors...
The 1973 intake into Customs & Excise (recruited by open competitive examination to man-up VAT) had brought in a very mixed bunch indeed.

In my District, as I recall, we had a Master Mariner, a charming young lady who'd been a Third Officer on a tanker in the Gulf, a REME Captain, a less young but still charming schoolmistress and myself. Fortunately our Boss ("Surveyor" in Customs parlance), who had started after war service, had been a Sergeant in 81 (West African) Division in the Arakan at the same time as me, so we had many a good old chinwag !

And "on the road" (four days a week) a RAF connection often came to light. I particularly remember one Antiques shop I visited in a North York moors village. The proprietor was nervously defensive (a common reaction), until my glance fell on a silver-framed photograph in his office. It was of a Liberator in an obvious Bengal setting. "Salbani ?" I hazarded, "159 Squadron ?". He lit up like a lamp "Yes ! - and you ?"

I need hardly tell you that not much time was wasted on his VAT Account ! Out came the best crockery, the Earl Grey, and the chocky bikkies - and the Queen's Revenue could take a back seat. (I squared my conscience with the thought that I would be "doing" the pub down the road next week, and would be sure of a few thousand "tickle" there - pubs were my specialty).

Danny.

Fareastdriver

8th Jun 2016, 11:27

and would be sure of a few thousand "tickle" there - pubs were my specialty).

For you or the Chancellor?;););):D:D:D:D

Danny42C

8th Jun 2016, 12:11

FED,

If only ! Often said: "Give me a 10% bonus on the unpaid tax I collect" - and see the cash roll in ! (It was generally accepted that [on average] each man we put on the road brought in seven times his own salary).

Not very ethical, unfortunately.

Danny.

Wander00

8th Jun 2016, 13:08

I remember when we suddenly found we had squadron tea bars that were subject to VAT, and then later the Food Safety Act - now there was a challenge

Danny42C

8th Jun 2016, 20:45

Wander00,

It would be a hell of a squadron tea bar that had a turnover large enough to make it compulsorily registrable for VAT ! There would be no sense in voluntary registration, for the stuff you buy (tea, coffe, milk, sugar, buns, butter, biscuits [but not chokky bikkies] would be zero rated, so there would be no input tax to reclaim).

The tea bar would be in the same position as the man in the street, if you want to buy a new electric kettle, you have to pay VAT on it. But you do not have to charge the chaps VAT on their "char and wads", even though catering is taxable, as you are not registered for VAT.

At least, that was how the Law stood when I retired (for the second time) in 1986.

Clear as crystal ?
...the Food Safety Act - now there was a challenge...
With most of the "tea swindles", I remember, I would jolly well think so !

Danny.

Wander00

9th Jun 2016, 08:51

Danny, I am talking about 86 onwards when I went to non Public desk at Brampton post Mt Pleasant. ISTR VAT turnover limit then was £20,500-and there were coffee bars, St Athan was one such station where crew room coffee bars were turning over £30k. Strike Command had a couple of stations where reclaim of unpaid VAT all but wiped out the SIF. I discovered a fraud at one station in my first day as OC Admin only because I noticed a football club turning over in excess of the VAT limit but unregistered, and a black hole came to light. As I said to my stn cdr, I was glad it was on my first day in post and not my last. President of the Audit Boards was a bit tee'd off though.

Danny42C

9th Jun 2016, 15:38

Wander00,
...there were coffee bars, St Athan was one such station where crew room coffee bars were turning over £30k...
Yes, I'm afraid I was thinking of squadron sized "tea swindles", such as the Canteen we ran in the '50s in the Auxiliary Fighter Control Unit at Thornaby. I don't know what the turnover of ours was, but it was a good business, for I remember that it had accumulated about £1,000 in my kitty by my time (it had been going for years). The NAAFI moaned about it, but we paid no heed.

Some of it had been earned by a barefaced fraud for which my predecessor was responsible (he got Christmas Cards printed by an unscrupulous printer, who then invoiced them to us as "Recruiting Posters"; the North Riding Territorial and Auxiliary Forces Association settled the bill without question; we sold the cards cheaply and made a killing). Needless to say, I put a stop to all such shenanikins !

One of my first tasks after appointment as Adj was to bring in one of my secretarial auxiliary officers, the Assistant Manager of a Darlington bank, to collar and safeguard all the cash he could, open an account at his Bank with it for us, and keep proper accounts for what was, (as being not even a Non-Public Fund), below the RAF radar; the Station Accountant Officer didn't want to know about it.

Although there were three Auxiliary units on Thornaby (608 Squadron, 2608 (Regt) Squadron and ourselves) plus SHQ, and they would all have tea bars, many used to prefer coming over to our Canteen. Thornaby was not a (Regular) WRAF Station but I had about 70 Auxiliary WRAF Radar Operator and Fighter Plotter trainees on strength (who, among other things, ran the Canteen). That may have been a draw !

VAT didn't come in till the 1972 Finance Act (it was, IIRC, one of the preconditions for joining the EU).

Danny.

MPN11

9th Jun 2016, 19:03

Coffee Swindles ... eek!

As SATCO, I had posted in straight from Shawbury/CATCS a lady who had been Admin (Sec) but transferred to GD(G)ATC in her 30's. Hi, Jean, if you read this stuff!

Taking advantage of her [background & experience], I made her I/C Coffee Swindle ... my subsequent debrief by my new ATC flt lt was quite interesting. I think she saved me all sorts of sh!t :)

Wander00

9th Jun 2016, 20:27

Good for her! (on both counts)

Danny42C

9th Jun 2016, 20:58

Wander00 (revisiting your #8674),
...Strike Command had a couple of stations where reclaim of unpaid VAT all but wiped out the SIF...
We are talking about what we used to call "The Station Institute Fund", I take it. Obviously things might have changed considerably since 1955, but even from 1973 onward, I would have thought there would be nothing to stop individual squadrons or units on (say) St. Athan forming informal "private" 'Tea Swindles' of their own outside the aegis of the SIF.

By combining the total of all the turnovers under the umbrella of the SIF, naturally you would soon reach the VAT registration threshold - so why not leave them alone as separate legal entities (which would be able to deal with HMRC individually - if so minded, which few would be (as explained in my #8673).

I had a Google ("RAF Station Institute Funds") to see how the land lies today, picked:

"[PDF] chapter 8 banked funds administration - RAF
www.raf.mod.uk/community/mura-raf-community/.../Chapter%208.pdf"

and looked at:

"AP 3223
Leaflet 801
BANKED FUNDS - ORGANISATION, OBJECTIVES AND MEMBERSHIP
80101. The term ‘banked funds’ is used to describe all the RAF Service Funds held by a unit
SFAS apart from the officers’ and SNCOs’ messes and the SIF..."

and decided that enough is enough !

Having said that, I must admit that, even in my time at Thornaby, and with the RAF Accountant Officer offically closing his eyes to our Unit Fund, there appeared in my office one day a civilian with a bulky briefcase, who demanded an account of my stewardship of it. Being of a kindly disposition, and knowing that our now professionally maintained accounts would be copper-bottomed, refrained from telling him to Foxtrot Oscar, and he departed after giving me a clean bill of health. So, a harbinger of things to come ?

Danny.

Wander00

10th Jun 2016, 08:45

Danny, true, except those on high decided that all should be safely gathered in and under control, subject to VAT where applicable and audited by Station Audit Board and inspected by ("We are here to help you") Command Accounts. In by time in CA Brampton we did get a change in policy so that small funds ISTR less than £1000 a year turnover were not audited or inspected but got a quick "health check" every couple of years.

Danny42C

10th Jun 2016, 11:12

Wander00,
...In my time in CA Brampton we did get a change in policy so that small funds ISTR less than £1000 a year turnover were not audited or inspected but got a quick "health check" every couple of years...
I suppose we must be thankful for small mercies. Pity it was not the policy from the start.

Danny.

...

Danny42C

10th Jun 2016, 13:47

MPN11 (#8676),
...Coffee Swindles ... eek!

As SATCO, I had posted in straight from Shawbury/CATCS a lady who had been Admin (Sec) but transferred to GD(G)ATC...
For twenty years after the war, Air traffic Control in the RAF had been (as I put it earlier here) "A Sunset Home for all the good old has-beens and never-wozzers from the survivors of the wartime aircrew. There was not a control Tower in the land that could not field at least one complete bomber crew from the Controllers..." They did a fair job, and had the advantage that they were immune to the tall tales of the new Young Tigers with their dazzling new Wings.

But it then occurred to the Powers that Be that this lot would all be retiring in a bloc over the next few years, and they (ie the newly hatched MOD) had better Do Something About It. or they would have no ATC service at all. Accordingly they put the word about, and advertised in the weekend broadsheet "glossies", enticing gullible school leavers to apply for short-service Commissions in this glamourous new Branch of the RAF. Good "A" levels would suffice.

And not only school leavers - at Shawbury I instructed a Direct Entrant lady who was hard up against the ridiculous top age limit of 39. There were cross-overs from other Branches (like your ex-Admin, and a number of General List pilots and navs who had been offered earlier chance of promotion if they did so), ATC Assistants put up for commissions, and maybe some Cranwell cadets (?). This in addition to the fag-end of old aircrew put out to grass for their last years of service.

They creamed off the better applicants and gave all the Direct Entrants four (?) month's OCTU at Henlow, and everybody a three month's ATC Course at Shawbury. Then they were let loose (under supervision, of course) on the Air Force. The younsters were the future of the Branch, and I must say the Selection Boards had done their work well. They started coming in to Shawbury about he middle of my instructional tour ('64-'67) there and then I had them in my last (double) tour at Leeming ('67-'72). With rare exceptions, I found the young gentlemen keen and very pleasant, the young ladies equally keen and charming (it was true, they did pick the stunners for ATC - officers and airwomen).

But, charming as they might be, they were generally bad bargains for the RAF. As soon as they received their Certificates of Competency (and started being of use to us), and in one case even before, they tended to vanish in a cloud of orange blossom. I do not recall one who finished her active service. The taxpayer was left to pick up the bill, with little or nothing to show for it.

Whereas the young men set to work, many took General List Commissions and made successful Careers (as indeed did you). The RAF was your Oyster now. The Old Guard stood down, it was time to go.

Danny.

MPN11

10th Jun 2016, 19:49

Hmmm ... I might disagree with some aspects of that, Danny.

1. Many of the young ladies I trained with and worked with were less than stunning! Chunky or twig-thin seemed the norm ;)

2. Some did indeed depart the fix early into the arms/beds of aircrew, but they tended to amortise their training [as indeed they still did when I left the system]. Others had full careers, at least to the 38/16 point and in some cases beyond. Although my gorgeous OCTU (Feltwell) girlfriend from Junior Blue Sqn [I was on Yellow] apparently lasted less than 6 months into productive service - ISTR she was Admin (Sec).

3. "Good A-levels would suffice" ... so my 6 O-levels, acquired over 2 years of apathetic interest in Skool must have made me a miracle!! All we needed then was 5 O-levels for DE(SSC) commissions. I recall vividly the tension at my interview with AOC MATO about getting a Permanent Commission [to 38/16]. Mercifully, subsequent promotion to sqn ldr assured the cash-flow to 55 :D

4. I believe the upper age limit for entry into ATC training was eventually made 34. After that, it was deemed [from CATCS stats] that the success rate [one never says 'failure'] dropped off markedly. I know from front-line OJT training, never having done CATCS as an Instructor, that the older ab inito ATCOs were much slower and harder to train. They just didn't have the mental agility, or speed of thought/action, that was needed at the busy Units [Terminal and Area] that I was working/training on.

I had the unpleasant task of 'sacking' 2 sqn ldrs at Eastern Radar, posted in their later years [45+ ?]straight off the Area Course as potential Supervisors - they had no chance of coping, despite our best efforts. But the policy then was that all ATC sqn ldrs should have an Area ticket ... regardless of age/ability. A sad period in my career, as OC Training Sqn and Local Examining Officer [LEO].

5. However ... my generation was schooled by yours, and we were rapidly show/taught/told which end was up. As a baby plt off in 65, my mentors were all WW2 aircrew with little tolerance for anything other than 100% professionalism in dress*, behaviour and [of course] controlling. I was abused and whacked with a Nav ruler on a few occasions by bemedalled MAcr, WO and flt lts :D

* At CATCS in 65, our Instructor (Flt Lt Nat Tr***er, long departed) used to inspect us A/Plt Offs in the morning to ensure our [detachable] collars were clean and buttons shiny. If not, we were sternly advised too speak to our Batman about his performance :) Nat and I subsequently worked together at ERD on the shop floor ;)

Danny42C

10th Jun 2016, 21:37

MPN11,

Regarding your points 1-2-3, I defer to your more extensive experience in ATC - and perhaps (in respect of Point 1.), advancing age leads one to lower one's sights to a degree ! Nevertheless we did lose our WRAF at Leeming with quite remarkable speed. As regards minimum educational standards, I must admit that I took those from memory (and that is notoriously fallible). Even when I volunteered in late '40, it was a requirement for potential pilot/nav volunteers to have School Certificate with Credits in Maths and English, and I would have thought that that would have been increased by the '60s.

Now with Point 4, we are in full agreement. You can teach an old dog new tricks, but not very many, and he is a slow learner. There are always exceptions, but in general the failure rate went up with age. In the case I mentioned, she was so nervous that it was a mystery to me how she got past the Selection Board in the first place. Be that as it may, we got her through the final exams at Shawbury, but I would have been doubtful about her future.
... But the policy then was that all ATC sqn ldrs should have an Area ticket ... regardless of age/ability...
That's my career down the pan for a start, as I'd always regarded Area Radar with horror and revulsion! But as my career had vanished (at the hands of a Medical Board) long before (which was the reason I was in the Branch in the first place), it didn't matter very much. As you say, it is nice for a family man to have a secure income to 50+, and a pension after that. Mine worked out at 42% of my pay (at age 50), and I've been drawing it for 44 years now.

Were we really such hard taskmasters as you recall ? (I remember Flt Lt N.T. well enough, he chased the junior Instructors round, as well). But you must admit that we turned out a good product (in the main).

Danny.

Union Jack

10th Jun 2016, 21:53

Danny - I'm still chuckling at "they tended to vanish in a cloud of orange blossom", although my "current next of kin" is, quite inexplicably, less obviously amused!:ok:

Jack

Danny42C

10th Jun 2016, 22:00

Jack,

Ah, young love........ (may not make the world go round, but sure as hell keeps it populated !).

Danny.

Wander00

11th Jun 2016, 08:50

MPN11 - when were you at Watton/Eastern Radar? I recall the night of the Canberra/Victor collision when I think I am correct in saying that the controller when they were lost in a cu nim was a young direct entry ATCO - I remember him feeling devastated. Ever come across a WO called Buzz Warrior? His daughter is Mrs W's best school friend.

MPN11

11th Jun 2016, 08:58

Danny, I was never harshly treated at CATCS. Indeed, my main recollection of the Instructors was their determination to get us through the course. The "beatings and abuse" came during OJT on my first tour, albeit rarely, until I had been knocked into something resembling a 'proper ATCO' :)

My only 'Instructor clash' occurred on my GCA course, when a certain fg off [later AOC MATO] insisted I set the rheostat on the Sim to display range rings every mile. I reset to show at 5 mile intervals, as I was headed for an MPN11 truck where only 5-mile rings were available ... and I found the display hard to work with all those concentric circles! After 'a bit of a barney', I reluctantly did as I was told and, after the Exercise, complained to our Course Commander, one Harry T of your acquaintance. Inevitably he supported the Instructor :(

MPN11

11th Jun 2016, 09:05

As a further note, Danny, I know that Area was regarded with a degree of horror by many at that time. I'm not sure why that was so ... perhaps the remote locations, not on a 'proper Station', and with no aircraft to watch from Local?

Another factor may have been tour lengths. As Area grew in size in the late 60s, there was a great need for controllers and postings would require re-training at new Units - so there were no fixed tour lengths. You arrived, and you stayed! My first tour at Eastern was 4 1/2 years, with time off for good behaviour :)

MPN11

11th Jun 2016, 09:14

Wander00 ... I arrived at ERD 2 years after that tragic event, but it remained a topic of conversation. It certainly made us all particularly apprehensive when controlling aircraft near the overhead, or in areas of clutter.

Sorry, Buzz Warrior is an unknown.

Danny42C

11th Jun 2016, 15:30

Jack,

Reverting to your #8684,
...Danny - I'm still chuckling at "they tended to vanish in a cloud of orange blossom"...
leads me to wonder whether you had similar problems with your WRNS (Mrs D. was a WREN for a period postwar, but that was long before I came on the scene).

I have always been amazed at the decision to allow WRNS to go to sea as part of a ship's company. At one stroke their Lordships must have put the teeth on edge of every Naval Wife. These had long been resigned to having their husbands disappear for months at a time, secure in the knowledge that they were safe from the (conventional) temptations of the flesh while boxed up in a floating steel monastery; now all that was at hazard.

No doubt the WRENs enjoyed it (and EQUALIY had been achieved !), but had I been the First Sea Lord (which, having regard to the safety of the Realm, thank the Lord I'm not, Sir), a wicked grin would have appeared on my weatherbeaten cheeks.

Why not select one frigate or corvette, and crew it with only females (from Captain to ship's cat) ? How popular would service in such a floating nunnery be ? Then we would see what the real draw was: Life on the Open Wave - or Jolly Jack Tar ?

Danny.

Wander00

11th Jun 2016, 15:51

Danny - your last para - was that not the subject of an Ealing comedy film in the 50s or 60s.

Best ATC related story - decision taken to introduce WRAF in the tower at Cranwell - meeting of the great and the good to sort out practicalities, of which at the end of the day only one remained, toilets - standard tower - one for officers, one for airmen. "No problem"£, says SATCO, we'll put a tent outside."

"That's no good", says Command WRAF Officer, "My girls like permanent erections"...........

Danny42C

11th Jun 2016, 19:55

Wander00,

Doesn't ring a bell. Anybody ?
..., toilets - standard tower - one for officers, one for airmen..
Jokes aside (and that was a 'guddun'), we operated for a year or two at Leeming, after I arrived, on a unisex basis. The girls put up with it - but they didn't like it. Giggle - but supposing it were your daughter, your sister ? Admittedly the were "Ladies" in Flying Wing (50 yards). Fine on a warm Summer afternoon - but what about a winter night, pelting with rain and howling with wind ?

No one seemed inclined to do anything about it (asking to have money spent on "unnecessary" Works 'n Bricks was not a career-enhancing move). But I was not inhibited in that way. I put up a memo. through SATCO to OC (F). After making the case, I added, silkily, "I cannot but think that Group Captain Paul [Command Queen Bee] does not know of this arrangement and would not like it if she did".

This was bluff - but a little quiet blackmail works wonders ! Next Monday the first pack of bricks was at the back door. Get a satellite picture of RAF Leeming now, zoom right in on the Control Tower, look at SW corner. A small structure mars the mathematically perfect square of the original ground plan.

I suggested that a small blue plastic plaque be affixed to commemorate my part. But somehow it failed to gain support.....

Leeming was my last Station before retirement. What they did at other places, I don't know.

Danny.

Danny42C

11th Jun 2016, 20:19

MPN11 (#8688)',
...As a further note, Danny, I know that Area was regarded with a degree of horror by many at that time. I'm not sure why that was so ... perhaps the remote locations, not on a 'proper Station', and with no aircraft to watch from Local?...
No, the objections were (1) you were "down a hole" (or at least under artificial light all the time) as (2) a "battery hen" sitting wth all the other "hens" before a bank of screens. In a Tower you had blue (?) skies, green grass, aircraft and little birdies to watch. Even in Approach, you could always go upstairs in quiet periods, natter to Local and the Duty Instructor, and you had a 'slave' CA/DF and a monitor on Approach frequency (for, as you know, the "Gaydon" Towers could be operated solo from the top). Radar was stuck to his/her AR-1/PAR tubes below in "approach" - but you can't win 'em all !

Who, in his sound mind, would want to change places ? Best idea, let the civvies control all Area Radar, civil and military (isn't that so in USA ?). Then when they cock it up, they have no RAF to blame !

(your #8687),
...insisted I set the rheostat on the Sim to display range rings every mile. I reset to show at 5 mile intervals, as I was headed for an MPN11 truck where only 5-mile rings were available ... and I found the display hard to work with all those concentric circles! After 'a bit of a barney', I reluctantly did as I was told...
If you were doing "Continuous Descent" or "Step-Down" PPI Approaches on an old ACR-7 (or anything else which had a PPI, but could not use PAR for some reason), then it would make sense. Otherwise no. You were right !
...and, after the Exercise, complained to our Course Commander, one Harry T of your acquaintance. Inevitably he supported the Instructor..

Had to - otherwise Instructor's authority would be zilch from then on. Harry and I were instructors there together at that time. Later he would appear at Leeming as my SATCO, before going on to higher things (as you know)

Bit puzzled by "complained to our Course Commander" Surely that was the "Admiral" ?

Danny.
Last edited by Danny42C; 11th Jun 2016 at 18:50. Reason: Get rid of Smiley who got in Title uninvited !

MPN11

12th Jun 2016, 10:23

Danny42C .. your #8693,

1. Whilst I accept your perspective on the working environment, I found the actual work infinitely more interesting and varied. OK, ERD was a bit special in that sense: in addition to normal Upper and Middle airspace work over East Anglia and beyond, we provided centralised Approach Control (CAC) to numerous (10 or more) RAF and USAF airfields on our patch. So every shift presented totally different challenges, procedures, aircraft types and flight profiles ... as opposed to a horde of Leeming JPs going round the circuit[s] day after day :)

2. If we are speaking of "Admiral" Tim De****k, he was the "Course Coordinator" on my JATCC in 65. Sadly there's a paucity of RAC Course photos in our "Old and Bold" library [mine in 66 is missing, for a start!] but they all have a variety of flt lt Course Commanders [Messrs Greenbrook and Cargill, and (possibly) Irving would seem to overlap your time]. I always understood that the flt lt instructors took turns in 'leading' a Course, presumably under the overall aegis of the Admiral and then OC CATCS himself?

Having consulted my archives, my [excellent] RAC Course Results do not indicate any of the staff. However, the Course composition was, perhaps, typical of that time of change:
3 x Flt Lt
1 x Plt Off
9 x MACR/WO [of which 3 were either recoursed or RTU]

BEagle

12th Jun 2016, 12:36

One of the tasks of a QFI was either 'Duty Pilot', or going to the Tower to watch your own students during their solo consolidation trips.

I was QFI-ing at Abingdon, but it wasn't much fun in Local at the time, with a stuffy SATCO and eager-tigger ATCO most of the time. Plus it could get very busy with 2 UASs and the AEF cowboys. So I used to go to Benson with my baby Bloggs to do their solo consolidation.... It was only about 5-10 min away and had only a few 146 corgi-carriers and the occasional Wessex most of the time, so was like a private aerodrome.

The first time I went there, up in Local was a delightful WRAF officer and her little assistant, quietly looking through some shopping catalogue and chatting. It was great, the assistant kindly fetched me a cup of tea and I explained what my student would be doing. Off he went to do his 3 circuits, taxy round, do another 3, rinse and repeat. Then back to Abingdon after turning abeam the tower windows - to see the ladies waving!

This became a regular run for me - the odd packet of biscuits and jar of coffee ensured excellent service (and that they wouldn't mention my 'spirited' departures to anyone important). Plus my students finished their solo consolidation well before Summer Camp, so I wouldn't be stuck in the tower whilst everyone else was off doing aeros. But when we arrived there, it was to find that the same lady ATCO had been posted there. She coped with Nimrods and Bulldogs in her calm, unflappable way but my cheeky students (mainly the girls) christened her '0898 Fiona'.....

QFI-ing had its enjoyable moments back then - somehow I doubt whether it's quite so much fun in the 'Kraft durch Freude' UAS world of today :(

MPN11

12th Jun 2016, 12:59

The average ATCO in a quiet Tower is always glad to get a bit of extra trade ...looking out at an empty airfield isn't much fun.

When the Strubby Varsities weren't night flying, all we would have was a few Canberras taking the Staff N/Spec N students on a grand tour of the UK, in the hopes of getting them lost, returning some many tedious hours later [from our POV, of course]. So one used to ring Patrington [then the Fighter Command Diversion Cell] and assorted other airfields offering them "6,100 ft, full lighting, QGH/GCA/ILS and an empty circuit".

I think I overcooked that one night, and had to call "Enough!" as we were getting a bit hectic! Oh, and got a billow-king from DSATCO for letting a Comet do rollers without checking the LCN first* :(

* I assume the Captain didn't check either .. it was quite a few numbers short. Runway inspected, no visible damage.

Danny42C

12th Jun 2016, 15:14

MPN11 (#8694),
...1. Whilst I accept your perspective on the working environment...
That was the major factor in our dread of an Area Radar posting !
... as opposed to a horde of Leeming JPs going round the circuit[s] day after day...
We had our moments of excitement (as a Master Airfield) all the same. Offhand I remember the day (1971) of the Wingate Vulcan (although it was all over when I came on watch after lunch), when a burning Vulcan was coming down from the North, the Captain had baled-out all the back office people, and announced his intention of trying to get the stricken aircraft down at Leeming. Of course we had cleared the "horde" of JPs away, and all the Crash Crews and ambulances were out with engines running, everything was teed-up, and the Top Tower was filling up with the Top Brass.

But he could not put the fire out, pointed it out at the North Sea (only a few miles to the East); both pilots banged-out. Then the Vulcan had other ideas, went into a wide left hand descending spiral and impacted near (but mercifully not on) a school at Wingate. There were (miraculously) no casualties (Google it, take first item on menu):

"crash of Vulcan XM610 - neam.co.uk
www.neam.co.uk/wingate.html"

Then there was the day when the C-in-C of Maintenance Command left Catterick (still in use as an airfield then) in his Comm Flt Pembroke. They got up to about half way to Leeming, then an engine failed. Put out a Pan, and (obviously) chose Leemimg. Again we'd told the JPs to go away and play somewhere else (or land at Dishforth [our RLG] if fuel short), and made all ready.

Pembroke landed safely. Nav came up to ATC to complete formalities. "What's with the donk ?", asked him affably. (This shows advantage of having Old Hairy pilots in ATC - he would bridle at such a question from a wingless youth or girl, but it was quite acceptable from me). "Lost oil pressure ?" I added...."Lost a pot!", he tersely replied. Indeed they had, a whole Leonides cylinder had blown off, gone through the aircraft like a six-inch shell, but done no other harm (don't think it's ever been found). What the C-in-C (I think we put him on the train) said about Maintenance when he got back home is not recorded.... Never a dull moment ! - and don't get me started on the Night of the UFO (that never was). It's all on this Thread.
...I always understood that the flt lt instructors took turns in 'leading' a Course...
Don't think so in my time (if so, they never asked me) I just gave my lectures, orchestrated "Mocks", mentored named students (I don't think I "lost" a single one), and tried to keep out of the way of Group Captain W*****e !
...3 x Flt Lt...1 x Plt Off...9 x MACR/WO [of which 3 were either recoursed or RTU]...
A small Course indeed ! (did the Instructors outnumber you?). The new boys/girls must just have started coming in. Interesting that old aircrew should fail; this chimes exactly with my own experience. Perhaps they were too old by then. I came to the Branch at age 33, and the great bulk of entrants then would be around that. In '65, I would be 44.

More thoughts on Point 1 of your #8682, but that will have to wait till later.

Cheers, Danny.

ancientaviator62

12th Jun 2016, 15:34

Danny,
I have just borrowed a book from our local library called 'One Flight Too Many by HJS (Jimmy) Taylor. He trained as part of the 'Arnold scheme' and became a PR Spitfire pilot and then a POW. Have you read it ?

MPN11

12th Jun 2016, 16:13

A small Course indeed !
GCA Courses then appear [from the photos] to be around a dozen. Of course [ooops] they may have had overlapping Courses, progressing from Basic to Advanced phases.

The JATCC [Approach and Local] then was about 24 students ... my Course was a typical mix of youth and experience, with 8 x a/plt offs! "Admiral Tim" in the centre seat, naturally!

John Eacott

12th Jun 2016, 22:10

A/POs still outrank the lowly Midshipman!

Danny42C

13th Jun 2016, 08:34

John,

Not sure about that ! Always thought they were level-pegging. Authority ? Union Jack might have a word ?

Danny.

Danny42C

13th Jun 2016, 08:43

MPN11 (my #8697),

I must apologise for my careless confusing of your 'RAC' results with the common-or-garden Controller's Course. But the adage concerning "old dogs and new tricks" applies equally, I'm sure you would agree.

Danny.

Union Jack

13th Jun 2016, 08:48

A/POs still outrank the lowly Midshipman! - John

Not sure about that ! Always thought they were level-pegging. Authority? Union Jack might have a word? - Danny

Well, John, possibly in age;) - but as Dylan Hartley said to Jack Nowell in a certain stadium in Brisbane on Saturday, "Nice try!"

No big whoop, and I wasn't originally going to respond prior to your fly and Danny's prompt, but whilst I would tend to go along with Danny, I believe that, certainly in NATO parlance, a Midshipman is an OF-1 and an Acting Pilot Officer is an OF(D).:ok:

Jack

Danny42C

13th Jun 2016, 09:01

ancientaviator62 (#8698),

'Fraid not (don't buy any more books now, as they have spilled out of bookcases onto carpet, in spite of periodic clear-outs to charity shops !)

Danny.

ancientaviator62

13th Jun 2016, 09:05

Danny,
like you I no longer buy books. I borrow mine from our local library.

Danny42C

13th Jun 2016, 09:09

Jack (#8704),
...in NATO parlance, a Midshipman is an OF-1 and an Acting Pilot Officer is an OF(D)...
"OF(D)"?.....At a guess: "Neither flesh, fowl nor good red herring" (in other words a "Non-Person ?)

Looks as if we're out-gunned !

Danny.

Danny42C

13th Jun 2016, 09:18

ancientaviator,

Once upon a time we had a library. Now it's a Nursery School. (Council had economy drive, libraries first casualty, posh people (???) in posh areas can afford to buy their own !

Danny.

John Eacott

13th Jun 2016, 09:25

An Acting Pilot Officer is a commissioned rank, whereas a Midshipman is not.

MPN11

13th Jun 2016, 09:43

An Acting Pilot Officer is a commissioned rank, whereas a Midshipman is not.Well ... this letter here in front of me, from the Admiralty dated 28 August 1963, says ...
I am commanded by My Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty to inform you that you have been granted a commission on the Supplementary List of the Royal Navy ....

You have been appointed to the Britannia Royal Naval College, Dartmouth, as a Naval Air Cadet with seniority of 17th September, 1963, the date of your entry into the Royal Navy. ...

So if a Naval Air Cadet is commissioned, then a Midshipman certainly is! :cool:

MPN11
RN and RAF (Retired) ;)

John Eacott

13th Jun 2016, 10:31

If you thought that you were commissioned whilst a Naval Cadet because of that letter, then I fear that you have long been under a false assumption. A Cadet is an officer under training, as is a Midshipman, and only at the end of the training is a commission granted by the Lord High Admiral, Queen Elizabeth II. My commission was granted as a Sub Lieutenant and I wager that yours was, too.

I understand that in more recent years the grey area of Midshipman and commissions has been changed and they now receive a commission, but going back in time it was a warrant rank and then became 'undetermined'. At the time of the photo that I was referring to, and my time in the rank, Midshipman was NOT a commissioned officer but an officer under training.

MPN11

13th Jun 2016, 10:48

Fair call, John, and I fully accept the 'under training' aspect. But I understood one's commission was 'confirmed' on completion of training, rather than 'awarded'. Thus I was [according to my letter] 'granted' a commission wef 17 Sep 63, but that it was probationary until 'confirmed' on completion of some pre-determined stage of training. But wasn't there also something about age too? That you couldn't be a Subbie until you were 21? Or is that an old bloke's dithering?

In respect of the a/plt off, I agree it is a different fish. I was commissioned into the RAF on Graduation Day, after completing OCTU but [I]before starting professional training. The 'acting' bit would only be deleted on successful completion of professional training. In that context, as a wg cdr I used to sit on Reselection Boards for officers who had failed their professional training. It was made quite clear that they were already commissioned, and thus had the required officer qualities, and they could not easily be cast aside ... a different role had to be found for them somewhere.

John Eacott

13th Jun 2016, 11:10

What's the date on your commission? That will be when you were commissioned.

Yes, on graduation from BRNC on the Supplementary List one was a Midshipman until the age of 21. So if you were over 21 you would be an Acting Sub Lieutenant with the added seniority and pay for the rest of your time, obviously unfair but that's the way it was. The likes of Jerry Grayson, joining at 17, would reach frontline as a Mid and eventually have more experience than their seniors who came through later but started training at a much later age.

MPN11

13th Jun 2016, 11:27

What's the date on your commission? Ah, there's the rub. If 17 Sep 63 is not accepted, then despite having a PPL, I admit I did not do terribly well during Flying Grading. I was subsequently offered transfer from HSP* to Seaman Branch, but didn't fancy driving ships for a living and thus resigned my 'whatever' :) The loss of 13/3 a day was quickly compensated for in Air Traffic Control [Civ, then Mil].

So your exemplar young Jerry, on a front line squadron, under the age of 21 ... he was not commissioned, as he was only a Mid? :eek:
(I tease, of course)

* Due to eyesight, only flying career option available anywhere.

Danny42C

13th Jun 2016, 11:33

Now back at the ranch.......(or "revenons à nos moutons", as they say)...

MPN11 (#8682 revisited),

I think perhaps our divergent opinions on your Points 1. and 2. may stem from our different experiences. Would it be fair to say that your people in Area Radar tended to be older, more responsible, more experienced and more married than mine in the AFS at Leeming ?

Surely they didn't take them straight off the Joint Course at Shawbury onto Area Radar, still "wet behind the ears" ? (I do hope not - otherwise memo to self and Mrs D. : "Go by train and boat from now on !") *

Now consider things at Leeming. I think we never had more than four WRAF Controllers at any one time - all spinsters in the "full bloom of youth". They are outnumbered more than 15:1 by a constantly renewed population of young gentlemen (the student pilots), who are (a) of the same age as they; (b) of the same standard of education (and this is important); (c) (let's not be mealy-mouthed about this), of the same class as they; (d) perfect physical specimens (A1G1, anyway); and (e) bachelors (almost to a man). If their taste was for something slightly older, and more experienced, then there were still plenty of young, single QFIs to pick from. All these are cooped up in the same Mess.

Wouln't you expect ("Consequences" ?). As I put it: "Even Holy Mother Church wouldn't put a Monastery and a Nunnery under the same roof - and expect nothing to happen !"

And so our WRAF came and (inevitably) swiftly went. ("You can't stop the Sun from shining") Stands to reason.

Note *:
BBC 2 2100-2200 last night "City in the Sky". Thought of putting in a "Heads Up", as it sounded as if they might devote it solely to Area Radar, but they only put in a few graphics and a reference to our old friend Separation Standards, the rest on other subjects. So glad I did not. (Repeated same Channel at 140005 if anyone interested, good serial).

PS: Changing tack completely, Strubby may have been a haven of peace and tranquility in your day, but in mine ('55-'58), it had more movements per diem than (then) Heathrow. We had all the AFS Meteors plus Empire Flying College Canberras, Lincolns and the odd Hunter. And if you think young Bloggses are hard work, try some old ones ! Controllers came off Watch like "wet rags". SATCO had to watch which one would "crack" first from Battle Fatigue, and give him a week's "rest cure" at Manby.

When I was posted to Thorney Island, I thought I'd died and gone to Heaven.

Danny.

MPN11

13th Jun 2016, 12:50

Hello again, Danny :)

Whilst most Area students would have had a tour or two under their belt, there were certainly a few [a very few] who went straight into Area ... I'm looking at Course photos from the late 60s where there were quite a few plt offs. The manning requirement for the expanding Area world would have demanded that the better 'young ones' went there asap. (I was stuck at Tengah, on my 2nd tour, so had to wait until 1970 before being vacuumed up!). However ... Area Radar tended to be older, more responsible, more experienced and more married Well, professionally you are undoubtedly right. Certainly at ERD there was a high percentage of 'sensible adults' amid the ~50 controllers. There was also a substantial core of young [some single, some not] Fg Offs/Flt Lts who were perfectly capable to tearing up the Mess and the Patch with the best - and all the ATCOs were male, apart from Anne H****n. Watton Happy Hour was never for the faint-hearted :E
Hmmm ... 2 fellow Fg Offs from my first time there ended up as AOC MATO, as did one of my COs. But then it was the Premier ATCRU :)

Strubby in your day was indeed famous/notorious for intensity. By 1965 it had metamorphosed completely into the 'Manby Satellite' era. We had ~8 Varsities [School of Refresher Flying] and a similar number of Canberras, I guess. Manby was now, apart from the College of Air Warfare, just another whining swarm of JPs [again, Refreshers]. But, as noted earlier, Strubby received loads of Practice Div traffic, and Manby JPs used us [quite rightly] for PFLs and the like to escape from their busy circuit to augment the blunderings of the Varsities in the circuit. So not exactly 'all same speed/direction' that you get at a Jet FTS. And, inevitably, both our fleets of aircraft used to get in each others way as could be expected when the airfields were only 4.5 nm apart. So "Mixed Traffic" was the norm ... Varsity QGH from FL50, Jet QGH from FL180, IIRC. And half the Varsities were VHF only, and the jets were UHF, so 2 wiggly-traces on the DF at once, and a single earpiece and a handset for comms, and trying to remember which was which! I think we were deemed "Medium Intensity/High Complexity" when it came to the posting plot.

Danny42C

13th Jun 2016, 16:42

MPN11 (revisiting your #8713),
... despite having a PPL, I admit I did not do terribly well during Flying Grading...
This statement, though factually correct, needs to be heavily qualified. You may remember, some years ago, it was the subject of a Post of mine in which I declared that, IMHO, the Navy had treated you very shabbily indeed.

I have been seeking to trace that Post, to tell the true story again, and remove any false impression created by your modest statement above. "Search This Thread" - broken reed as usual. Good old Google got a lead on it - but only to refer me to a page on the "Archive". So I know it's in there somewhere, but as the Archive Page is about the size of the Bible, it's "a needle in a haystack" job. Nevertheless rolled up sleeves and started.

To save me more drudgery, can you (or anybody else) refer me to that Page/Post No. (on this Thread?) Better yet, if it is found, you Edit your #8713 with a cut/paste of my remarks.

Now, you know how it is, when you're vainly looking for something, you often find something else instead you were looking for before. So it is here. A timely reminder that, although old dogs can learn new tricks, some old dogs are better at it than others (there's a lot of this, so settle back)

My Post to MPN11 19.6.14:
_____________________

"As the Courses came in, we laid on a Welcome Party early the second
evening, so that the Instructors and their new students could get acquainted before formal lessons began. These were held in the Instructors' Common Room on the first floor of the Main building, and modest alcoholic and non-alcoholic refreshments were laid on.

I particularly remember one such occasion - it must have been in the early years (no exact date) before the influx of new, young entrants had started. Instructors and nearly all the students were still both of the "old" ex-war generation: there were frequent cries of joyful recognition as another pair of old comrades were happily reunited, perhaps for the first time in twenty years.

I'm not sure, but I think that each Instructor was allotted two or three students, to monitor them at least for the first week or two until they'd settled in. In this instance, I got two (names long forgotten) Master Aircrew, a Czech pilot and a British signaller (former Wop/AG), and they could not have been more unlike in appearance. Naturally we were all out of uniform: ranks being of no consequence here.

The Czech's history was a familiar one. In the pre-war Czecho-Slovakian Air Force, he'd got out ahead of the German invasion and across to France. Hardly had he settled there when France collapsed and he'd managed to get away a second time (by devious means) across the Channel to the UK. There the RAF was glad of every pilot they could get their hands on; he flew with the Czech Squadrons, and RAF Transport Command, throughout the war years.

Post-war, he stayed here (like many of his compatriots and the Poles, well knowing the likely reception they'd get from the new Communist Governments), naturalised, married and stayed in the RAF till retirement. A remarkable thing was that he'd managed to continue in one flying appointment after another, never doing a ground tour (I suppose there wasn't much they could do with him); his last job being with the Hastings Met flights out of Aldergrove before he came to us.

I gathered that he'd not exactly "volunteered" for ATC: he struck me as a little, wizened, prematurely "old" man, seemed taciturn and uncommunicative in the extreme, and by no means happy with his posting to Shawbury. "We're going to have trouble here", I mused.

The other (Master Signaller) was the complete reverse. Sleek, assured and confident in a well-cut blue pinstripe, he was the very image of a successful businessman. He was happy with his transfer to the Branch (I don't know what he'd been doing before), and was keen to get started and "make a go of it". In other words, an ideal candidate. "This one'll be no problem", was my immediate assessment.

To cut a long story short, what we got was the exact opposite of our expectations. The seemingly "bolshie" Czech turned out, in fact, to be "as bright as a button". You only had to tell him a thing once, and he'd got it. Quick thinking and resourceful, he romped through the "Mock" exercises in the face of all we could throw at him. (Of course his long and varied flying experience in war and peace could not but help enormously in this respect; we began to see why the RAF had kept him on the flight deck for so long - he was simply too valuable a man there to lose). Needless to say, he completed the Course successfully, breezed through the Final Exam and was on his way (where to, I know not, but some SATCO must have thanked his lucky stars).

It was the other way round with my Master Sig. It wasn't that he was lazy or uncooperative: he was clearly trying his hardest, building up a huge swathe of notes and spending hours swotting them up. His trouble was that (there is no other way of putting it): he was "thick as two planks". He was a Slow Learner, but we helped all we could, and I'm happy to recall that he scraped through at the end by sheer determination. I hope they shoehorned him into some quiet, low intensity place where he might do very well".

I learned my lesson from that - never judge by appearances ! :=

Danny.

MPN11

13th Jun 2016, 17:32

Danny42C ... I guess you mean this post >>> http://www.pprune.org/8198399-post4732.html

< T8191 takes a small bow for his PPRuNe search skills> ;)

Union Jack

13th Jun 2016, 17:39

This statement, though factually correct, needs to be heavily qualified. You may remember, some years ago, it was the subject of a Post of mine in which I declared that, IMHO, the Navy had treated you very shabbily indeed.

Danny - Do you mean Page 237 (in my scheme of numbering) your Post #4736 in relation to MPN11's Post #4732?

Jack

MPN11

13th Jun 2016, 17:48

BZ, Union Jack ... if a wee bit slower :)

(I really should start a Thread about "Gaining an ATCO's Certificate of Competency post-WW2" :D )

Union Jack

13th Jun 2016, 17:58

BZ, Union Jack ... if a wee bit slower - MPN11

Why thank you, Sir - I plead guilty to being "Absent from Place of Duty" whilst pouring my current next-of-kin a glass of Newcastle Red (aka Chateauneuf du Pape) on her return from lunch with the bridge coven, and a strong G and T for myself on return from golf.:ok:

Jack

MPN11

13th Jun 2016, 18:16

Thoroughly forgiven, UJ ... good to see your time is being usefully employed ;)

SH1T ... 320 posts on this thread for me, and I were never a proper pilot :(
Still, it's good to talk, and at least Danny42C and I have some things in common.

Union Jack

13th Jun 2016, 18:17

An Acting Pilot Officer is a commissioned rank, whereas a Midshipman is not. - John Eacott

Well, John, please try these two links for size

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranks_and_insignia_of_NATO_navies%27_officers

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranks_and_insignia_of_NATO_air_forces_officers

and pan down to the UK to see who is an OF-1 and who is an OF(D).:ok:

Incidentally, I rather fancy the Polish and Portuguese Navy insignia whereby Captains can masquerade as Admirals and Portuguese Coronels (Group Captains) can pretend to be Air Chief Marshals..... :D

I'll never forgive myself for saluting and calling a Portuguese Commander "Sir" when the "Desgraçado" was actually junior to me!

Jack

Union Jack

13th Jun 2016, 18:53

I have always been amazed at the decision to allow WRNS to go to sea as part of a ship's company. At one stroke their Lordships must have put the teeth on edge of every Naval Wife. These had long been resigned to having their husbands disappear for months at a time, secure in the knowledge that they were safe from the (conventional) temptations of the flesh while boxed up in a floating steel monastery; now all that was at hazard. - Danny

I couldn't agree more, Danny, and expressed my views very strongly and, whilst the ladies always seemed able to cope with the the concept of a "wife in every port", or what the French call being "un celibateur geographique" aka a "geographical bachelor", I know that the idea of having females at sea introduced a whole new dimension to the problem. The United States Navy have had considerable problems with the concept and, having also had some submarine experience, I have to say that having females at sea in submarines has well and truly raised my eyebrows.:=

No doubt the WRENs enjoyed it (and EQUALIY had been achieved !), but had I been the First Sea Lord (which, having regard to the safety of the Realm, thank the Lord I'm not, Sir), a wicked grin would have appeared on my weatherbeaten cheeks. - Danny

Of course they have, for precisely the reasons you say, and the good ones have been really good, but I suppose that I must accept that I am still just that little bit too old-fashioned (in the nicest sense) to feel wholly comfortable with the concept.:hmm:

Why not select one frigate or corvette, and crew it with only females (from Captain to ship's cat) ? How popular would service in such a floating nunnery be ? Then we would see what the real draw was: Life on the Open Wave - or Jolly Jack Tar ? - Danny

An intriguing prospect to say the least and, whilst it would not have been possible at the outset, it would theoretically be possible now that the appropriate levels of training have been achieved, but as they used to say when considering stopping the tot, or daily rum ration, "But not whilst I'm First Sea Lord"!:eek:

Jack (not Jacqueline)

MPN11

13th Jun 2016, 18:56

Ahem, UJ ... can you not master the use of the "Quote" button?

Tutorials are available by PM at a small fee ;)

John Eacott

13th Jun 2016, 21:22

Union Jack; did you read my post about the rank status at the time of the photo? As with MPN11 I was an HSP entrant and went through the system as both a Cadet and a Midshipman, I did manage to learn the status of my ranks before the advent of Wiki ;)

And MPN11 has beat me to it, but could you please stop using bold instead of quote? Most others seem quite capable of working it out :ok:

Danny42C

13th Jun 2016, 21:40

MPn11 (#8717) and Union Jack (#8718),

Thank you for steering me onto Page 237 (who is T8191 ? - #8191 on this Thread is a Post from Chugakug on another matter ?)
Found your Post about your TM troubles all right - but my reply a few Posts later is an anodyne affair. Now I can distinctly remember another Post in which I am much more critical about the Navy's handling of the affair (I used the words "shabbily treated" or something very close to it (the words "shabby" or "shabbily" were certainly used). Went a long way further on, and could not find it. Was it a PM - although I cannot find that around that time, either.

MPN11, you must remember that Post - any idea where it is ?

Puzzled Danny.

Union Jack

13th Jun 2016, 22:03

VMT MPN11 and JE for your thoughtfulness - I have always considered substance to be more important than style.:D

And a very happy birthday to you, John, confirming the date of your promotion to Sub Lieutenant on 13 June 1969.:ok:

Jack

MPN11

14th Jun 2016, 08:58

Dear Puzzled Danny42C,

I too have searched with no result. A recent prune [oops] of my PMs may have deleted it, of course. No great matter ... moving on [to wherever this awesome Thread is going!]. :)

Stanwell

14th Jun 2016, 09:42

Danny,
I tracked down that 'Mystery Vengeance' that had been mentioned earlier in this thread.
It, and it seems assorted bits of a couple of other airframes, is now in a collection of uncatalogued crates and boxes stored at HARS
(Historical Aircraft Restoration Society) at Albion Park, a bit south of Sydney.

Apparently, the firm who'd planned to undertake the restoration went into liquidation and so HARS stepped into the breach to recover the lot, transport it to Sydney
and securely store it at their premises.

While I'd seen a photo of it (looking reasonably complete) at its previous location, the chap I spoke to today told me that the whole lot is "a bit of a mess"
and it'll take quite a while to even work out what's there and what's not.
No serial numbers are available at this stage.
Manuals and parts catalogues are going to be a bit hard to find too, I'd reckon.

In the meantime, they've got their hands full with the restorations of a P-38 Lightning and a P-47 Thunderbolt - both of which are well underway.
Thus, it would seem that Vengeance going to be sitting in boxes for the foreseeable.

Also, I expect to have an answer fairly soon on your question (post #8656) re that photo of the Vengeance instrument panel which appeared in post #8651.
Stay tuned.

Danny42C

14th Jun 2016, 12:04

Gentlemen,

This incomparable Thread has always been a Broad Church, and no discouraging word should ever be heard in this our Crewroom in Cyberspace. So if Jack prefers to lend emphasis to his quotations by using Bold instead of "boxes" (which, I'm sure, he's well able to do), then "whatever floats his boat" is OK by me. And it is a great help to those of us whose eyesight is not what it once was !

Apologies to our long-suffering Moderators for trespassing on their turf.

Danny42C.

Danny42C

14th Jun 2016, 14:00

MPN11,

Following my #8726, I suppose we must accept that my earlier Post has "gone with the wind", for I certainly did not delete it. However, I will do my best from memory, for I do not intend to leave this alone.
...... despite having a PPL, I admit I did not do terribly well during Flying Grading...
As I recall you saying, the sequence of events was (roughly) this: You had accumulated 100+ hours on some modern nosewheel light airctaft and got a PPL on the way. Then you applied to the Navy: they started you on the Tiger Moth.Not surprisingly you struggled, they were unsympathetic, did not give you a second chance or another Instructor, but chopped you......... Is that a fair summary ?

I had flown Stearman, Vultee Valiant, Harvard, Master, Hurricane, Spitfire, Vultee Vengeance and P-47 Thunderbolt, gone out for three years, come back, flew Harvard and Spitfire again, then Meteor (15 hrs) to a total of some 700 hours. Then they gave me a Tiger Moth - I had Hell's own job with it and made a right mess of it! (the flying, not the Tiger) - the 15 hours nosewheel on the Meteor had "converted" me from 700 hours tail-dragging.

(Geriaviator, who has owned Tigers and has a lot of time in them, told us [in a Post] that all FJs had trouble with their first Tiger. Why not - it is 'one of a kind', after all).

So what chance did you have, with only nosewheel experience, starting on a Tiger ? Paradoxically, it would have been far better for you if you had done no flying at all (as would have been the case with nearly all your classmates).

If the facts are as I have outlined, then I say that the Navy had treated you shabbily, and I would stand by that. Luckily, the Light Blue knew a good man when they saw one.
...I really should start a Thread about "Gaining an ATCO's Certificate of Competency post-WW2"...
Why not ? (I might even put in a word from time to time).:ok:

Danny.

MPN11

14th Jun 2016, 14:12

Danny, you flatter my logbook! Apart from a bit of Air Cadet (CCF and ATC) Experience, my PPL represented 30h 15m [of which 10h 10m solo].

However, I will agree that having that nose wheel time meant that I was doing a tail-dragger conversion course with a ranting and unhelpful Instructor. But then the other guys managed [indeed, a couple were sent solo] so I have no excuse ... except my inability to land a TM :)

Danny42C

14th Jun 2016, 14:35

Stanwell (#8729),

Thank you for the 'gen' on this latest "resurrection" project. I know there are no details, but do they at least know whether they've got bits of Mk.IVs or I-II-IIIs ? Please keep us all posted on this if they get around to starting on the jigsaw puzzle.

I think now that the Camden panel is a 'bitsa' IMHO.
...In the meantime, they've got their hands full with the restorations of a P-38 Lightning...
There are half a dozen buried perfect specimens they could dig up out of the Greenland Icecap. Our American friends know where they are, for they've exhumed one already, and it's flying around. Apparently, the keys are on the cockpit seats where they were left when they were abandoned in WWII !

Danny.

MPN11

14th Jun 2016, 14:40

Apparently, the keys are on the cockpit seats where they were left when they were abandoned in WWII !They had keys? Or is that a jest?

My rental cars tend to have them under the sun visor!

Brian 48nav

14th Jun 2016, 15:03

Continuing the digression, with the Mods approval of course, - After I took my 8yr option and left the RAF I joined CAA as a trainee ATCO, a natural progression for many navigators. In fact when I joined aged 27 just about every ATCO over 30 was ex-military aircrew, mainly navs and signallers/AEOs but with a fair sprinkling of pilots and all those over 50 were ex-WW2 aircrew.

Foolishly, many of us thought that you couldn't really be a good controller without aircrew experience - in fact the recruitment of cadets mainly straight from 'the street' in the last 40 or so years has proved how wrong we were.

With unusual foresight the Civil Service had forecast that the end of national service would eventually lead to the military source all but drying up ( to train as aircrew, national service men were eventually required to sign on for up to 5 years as that at least repaid some of the cost of flying training ! ) so in about 1963 they introduced their own cadet scheme - the 2 ways of becoming an ATCO ran side by side for about 10 years.

For many years the upper age limit to enter training was under 35, but about 1990 the CAA found it was short of ATCOs,( having thought it had a surplus 5 years before!! ) and sponsored 3 or 4 courses of ex-military ATCOs and assistants at Dundridge College near Exeter. IIRC we had about 8 come to Heathrow and the pass rate was about 50%, these all being young fillies. The most notable example of a man who really didn't stand a chance, was that of a guy who had left the RAF at his 38 point, whose last tour had been as a trapper and previous tour to that, an instructor at Shawbury. He didn't stand a chance and it really was a stupid decision to post him to LHR.

Re going straight to Area from training, I don't think the civil world has had a particular problem except that to train at Swanwick I guess would take twice as long as most airfields. My son went that route in the late 90s and apart from a few weeks famil' at Brum has never looked out of a control tower. Very sad!

In fact I went the opposite route - after aerodrome training and validation at Brum I was posted to LATCC and hated the 'factory environment' in the middle of a council estate in West Drayton. In my 8 years in the RAF I had served at South Cerney, St Mawgan ( 2 weeks hold ), Gaydon, Stradishall, Thorney Island, Colerne, Changi, Fairford, Lyneham and Abingdon - all wonderful green places! I found the escape route was to volunteer for Stornaway ( ugh! ) after which I was posted to Boscombe Down and finally Heathrow. To my mind a control tower is the only place to be!

More digression - Union Jack -- one of my female colleagues at LHR married a matelot who had served at sea before the fairer sex were allowed aboard. He hated having Wrens aboard - he served on HMS Ocean and said that on his second tour the ship constantly smelt of Old Spice, as the boys were taking more care of their 'hygiene', there was less space as separate wash facilities had to be provided for the girls, and when the ship was being resupplied at sea only about 1 in 50 girls were strong enough to help catch and carry the heavy items such as bags of spuds.

Union Jack

14th Jun 2016, 15:28

A very interesting post overall, Brian, although as a proud Scot, I didn't quite understand your point about about Stornoway....:D

Regarding the "Oceans of Old Spice" and Replenishment at Sea, dare one say,or perhaps just think, that that reflects more than an element of "QED"?:ok:

Jack

PS Apologies - my Bold button seems to be U/S;)

Danny42C

14th Jun 2016, 15:37

MPN11,
...They had keys? Or is that a jest?...
No jest, it seems. I believe some US single engines had an "ignition key" (Anyone ?). But more likely a canopy lock (same as your car door).

Danny.

Danny42C

14th Jun 2016, 15:55

Jack and Brian,

Read somewhere that even the most radid feminist WREN acknowledged that, although they were an integral part of the Ship's Company, if there were (say) a fire in a ship's compartment, they would unceremoniously be bundled out of the way to let the matelots get in to fight it.

Brian,
...To my mind a control tower is the only place to be!...
A man after my own heart ! (MPN11, it's two to one) .

Danny.

MPN11

14th Jun 2016, 18:25

Brian 48nav ... many interesting points in your #8735. If you weren't so coy about your age, we could discuss whether we have old colleagues in common!!

I was rejected for the civil Cadet Scheme in 1964, as the Civil Service Commission were insistent on A-levels and wouldn't budge. So I joined Min of Av as an ATCA III in May 64, whilst waiting for the ponderous wheels of RAF to get round to me visiting OASC [again]. I resigned in Dec 64 after an interesting 6 months at Southern Centre [as was], and donned the Light Blue suit in Jan 65.

PS: I loved doing Local too, but Mil (Area) is where the big boys get to play. The part-trained ATCOs don't know what they're missing ;)

Brian 48nav

14th Jun 2016, 21:01

A few weeks back both Danny and you, I think, were promoting display of users' ages for 'orientation' purposes. I explained I used to have my age displayed until a rabid poster, on ATC issues threads, took umbrage with my view on something and suggested I was a coffin-dodger, an expression I took in simple terms to mean that I ought to be dead. Would he have said that to my face? I don't know, but had I not been capable of smashing him in the face one of my sons ( 6'4" rugby playing test pilot and 6'3" ATCO ) could have obliged!

I am in fact 70 in September, joined the RAF in December '65, commissioned 1st April '66 ( Yes I know! ), first baby nav' to be posted to the new mighty Herc' which I absolutely loved and decided to take my 8 year option when faced with a ground tour. I could put up with all the BS and imposition of service life provided I was flying, but not otherwise - so hey ho I became a civvie.

If you PM me I'm sure you will know a lot of the ex-military ATCOs I came across - so to speak! In fact one summer evening at LHR a BA pilot said to me on Ground, "You sound happy ", I replied, " I'm the only man here working with 4 gorgeous female ATCOs and they're taking me for a beer afterwards ". 2 of them were ex-RAF.

Union Jack

No offence meant to the land of the heather, but Stornoway was something else. We did some great things there - I dug peat, grew oats, had a croft and met some really good folk, there are fantastic beaches, good birdwatching etc. Work was so boring that I became quite good at the Telegraph crossword! My poor kids suffered quite badly from anti-English abuse at school sadly - all character building I suppose.

Union Jack

14th Jun 2016, 21:49

Perfectly understood, Brian, and no umbrage whatsoever - I understand that a long time in the Long Island could seem a long time, and I'm sorry to hear that your young, now not quite so young giants, should have been made to feel less than welcome there, especially when you had clearly integrated so well.

When in Scotland myself, I am sometimes subjected to something of the kind at a lower level but people soon back off when I tell them in their own local accent that a. that we're not all Billy Connollys and b. I am 100% Scottish and have probably been so longer than my "accuser"! :ok:

Jack (aka Jock)

MPN11

15th Jun 2016, 08:29

Brian 48nav ... ha! Commissioned 1st April '65 here :D

I shall compose a PM anon.

Danny42C

15th Jun 2016, 13:18

Brian 48nav (your #8735),
...Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken...[Kipling: "If"]...
Drafted a long and well thought out Post to you on Notepad this morning (having learned, from bitter experience, that there is a malevolent gremlin in PPRuNepad which craftily waits till you have almost finished before "losing" all your text beyond human recall). Answer: draft on Notepad, and gremlin can't win, as you've always got it on Notepad to copy/paste again.

Watch out! Gremlin has sussed this out and moved across to Notepad with his knavish tricks. Caught out once or twice. Answer, save text immediately on completion, safe again. But this morning, "senior moment", forgot - disaster!
...And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools...[ibid]...
So here goes:
...so in about 1963 they introduced their own cadet scheme...
IIRC, they took in boys and girls at 18. From MPN11:
...I was rejected for the civil Cadet Scheme in 1964, as the Civil Service Commission were insistent on A-levels and wouldn't budge...
So it seems that they required a higher educational level than the OASB for ATC entry ! Also, I think they would accept applicants up to 35 with 500 hrs as pilot or nav.

Could you confirm that they got their cadets up to PPL as part of the Course ? This would be a most valuable 'perk', and it confirms that the CAA saw value in flying experience. I have said somewhere here that flying experience is a "desirable" but not "necessary" requirement for ATCOs. It enabled them to put themseves in the place of poor Bloggs (hot and bothered, bawled out by a sadistic QFI (in justified fear for both their lives), and so not receptive to their gentle advice fom a comfortable seat in a nice warm Tower.
...and hated the 'factory environment' in the middle of a council estate in West Drayton...
My sentiments exactly ! And where does a poor junior ATCO and his family live (at London prices). In cardboard boxes ?

Your #8740:
...A few weeks back both Danny and you, I think, were promoting display of users' ages for 'orientation' purposes. I explained I used to have my age displayed until a rabid poster, on ATC issues threads, took umbrage with my view on something and suggested I was a coffin-dodger, an expression I took in simple terms to mean that I ought to be dead...
Young (I assume) chap should be horsewhipped ! It is contemptible to mock the afflicted, and when the affliction is old age, stupid as well. I clearly remember a meander in Louth (Lincs) Parish churchyard. An old sarcophagus was tastefully carved with a frieze of skulls, bones, shrouds and skeletons. To drive the message home was an inscription:

As you are now, so once was I
As I am now so will you be

A chill passed over the warm summer afternoon. Your young accuser might ponder the words. Rabid animals are best dealt with by a dose of lead at the back of the neck from a .45 Colt. Take no notice, Brian - "publish and be damned". I've often thought that for members of PPRuNe it should be mandatory to state true age.

Cheers, Danny.

Danny42C

15th Jun 2016, 14:56

BEagle (your #8695 - going back a bit, re Benson),
...One of the tasks of a QFI was either 'Duty Pilot', or going to the Tower to watch your own students during their solo consolidation trips...
For all my times at an AFS, there was always a Duty Instructor in the tower when solo stoods were aloft. He was first call when one of them declared a non-ATC problem. And he could order them, while I could only advise.
...The first time I went there, up in Local was a delightful WRAF officer and her little assistant, quietly looking through some shopping catalogue and chatting. It was great, the assistant kindly fetched me a cup of tea...
Now that's the kind of ATC-ing I like. But the "cup of tea".... One of the (if not the) most important tasks of the Air Traffic Control Assistant is Making the Tea. On the hour, every hour. This is vital for the safe conduct of ATC, as controllers badly need it at regular intervals to lubricate their vocal chords (and calm their shattered nerves after an hour of "the high-speed game of three-dimensional Chess" !) It may have been taught on their Course at Shawbury. If not, it should have been.
...and that they wouldn't mention my 'spirited' departures to anyone important...
Once Harry Talton (my SATCO at Leeming) mused to me: "I wonder if our wives know that their husbands are spending their duty nights on Approach with an attractive girl sleeping only feet away ?" It was true; on a Master Airfield (365/24/7), Approach Controller is (supposed to be) a waking Watch from 1800 to 0800. But the Radar Controller (same hours) at Leeming had a little bunk at the side of the Approach Room, where he/she could be brought into action at a moment's notice if need arose. There was never an occasion (AFAIK) when this circumstance was abused. (I might add that the cubby-hole door had a strong bolt on the inside).

At Thorney Island (also a Master, but not a WRAF station), the Radar bunk room was downstairs on the Ground floor - perhaps Leeming was a one-off.

Be that as it may, I fear all our wives were under the impression (which we did nothing to dispel) that our little playmates were tucked-up safe back in the Mess at these times. Our girls could have "shopped us" at any moment - but the loyal creatures never did, even in their cosy "powder-room" chats. Thank God for that !

Danny.

Brian 48nav

16th Jun 2016, 09:43

When the civil cadet scheme started it was a 3 year course that commenced at Hurn with ATCA ( assistant ) famil' follow by a PPL course at places like Carlisle and Oxford. Then on to the Aerodrome Course followed by postings around the country to an airfield where the cadet had to pass an endorsement or validation.
Back at Hurn the course then split into 2 with one half training on Approach/Approach Radar and the other on Area/Area radar. Postings to field units followed and once again an endorsement had to be passed.

Back to Hurn again and the reverse happened ( Approach and Area training ). In those days CAA or its predecessors was divided in to 3 regions, Scottish, Northern and Southern and the cadets spent one period of training in each region. Of course there were plenty of units to train at, in Area alone there was Ulster, Highland, Scottish,Border, Northern etc etc - virtually all gone now apart from Swanwick ( London ) and Scottish.

On graduation from the 3 year course a cadet had received a thorough grounding in all disciplines apart from PAR.

Following the '73/74 fuel crisis recruitment ceased for a while and when it restarted cadets did a much shorter course, the flying was cut back to 15 hours, just enough to go solo, and the courses became either Area streamed or Approach streamed. As mentioned earlier my son who joined in '96, only had a short time at an airfield for famil', did just go solo and has spent about 19 years now in London Terminal Control.

I believe no flying experience is given now, another case of the 'bean counters' deciding what the bottom line is! Despite all this I think UK civil ATC is second to none, certainly most pilots seem to breathe a sigh of relief when back in UK airspace! Or so I'm told.

ancientaviator62

16th Jun 2016, 10:00

Brian,
to hear the cool calm voice of 'London' after a trying trip 'elsewhere' always lifted the spirits. My A320 pilot grandson is very firmly of the same opinion,

MPN11

16th Jun 2016, 10:04

The 1964 Civil Service Commission documentation I have here* includes the following:

The cadet's training will take four years to complete and will be divided into five phases of varying lengths. Three of these phases will begin with a course at the School of Air Traffic Control, Hurn, and examinations will be held in each phase.

At the end of the for years' training, a viva voce examination and practical assessment will finally determine whether the cadet is suitable for promotion to Air Traffic Control Officer.

Cadets may be dismissed at any time during their training if it becomes clear that they are not likely to make successful Air Traffic Control Officers.

The very last para states:Air Traffic Control Offcer Cadets will be called upon to fly in the course of their training, and no additional allowance will be payable for this.

The contrast with RAF ATCO training at the time is stark! Sixteen weeks on the initial Joint Course, and IIRC another six on the GCA Course ... and away you go into your Unit's OJT system :D

* Min of Av ATCO Cadets Open Competition 1964