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flipster
5th Jun 2008, 09:39
Someone told me that the age-old ATC services provided to us aviators (Mil and civil) by UK ATS (mil and civil) are about to go.

Apparently, RAS, RIS and FIS will no longer be available next year but will be replaced by something 'not as good' - not my words!

Would any mil ATC peeps care to comment?:confused:

oldbeefer
5th Jun 2008, 10:22
Not changing until next spring. Full details due out shortly. A summary is in the first edition of the CAA's 'Clued Up' which has just been published - issued to anyone who has a valid CAA medical!

5th Jun 2008, 12:56
Flipster - maybe you should read PPrune more often as you would have known about this last year and also about COSPAS/SARSAT not alerting to 243/121.5 soon.:)

EESDL
5th Jun 2008, 15:48
Flipster too busy ensuring he gets his sleazyjet QTR'd asap so great unwashed can go to an airport that is nowhere near it says on the departure board.....:)
Hope fundraising efforts went well?

SirToppamHat
5th Jun 2008, 17:13
The new services are a desperate attempt to get the civvies to apply RAS properly so that ScATCC (amongst others) don't have to do their work for them.

As crab suggests, this has been discussed before, but what I saw were proposals that had so many holes in they were going to be a nightmare to get any agreement on. Do the new services bring with them standardization across Europe?

It's going to take a massive amount of effort to get the controllers up to speed, never mind the aircrew. Even with the ATSOCA we have at the moment, learning the definitions by heart is only the start of the process - interpreting and applying them is a different ball game altogether.

STH

flipster
5th Jun 2008, 18:12
EESDL - Yes thanks! Hope you are well?:ok:

crab - So kind of you! Thanks for reminding me!:hmm:

Everyone else - 'Clued Up' arrived in this afternoon's post and 'oldbeefer' is quite correct in that there is an article on ATSOCA (air traffic services outside controlled airspace) - I haven't had time to read it yet as I'm too busy catching up on pprune having had a busy time with the great (but paying) unwashed!:ugh:

flip

Lurking123
5th Jun 2008, 18:32
If I was feeling benevolent, I would call this whole change 're-branding'. A few tweaks but, underneath, its still a Skoda. :{

chevvron
5th Jun 2008, 19:16
The only way they would 'standardise' with the rest of Europe would be to adopt the procedures in ICAO Doc 4444 para 8.11; the new UK procedures don't do this so expect another change in a few years time. Meantime in my opinion the changes next spring are totally needless, with even the types of service difficult to understand as there is no mention of radar and no even faint resemblance to ICAO services.

handysnaks
6th Jun 2008, 09:04
Actually chaps, you were almost right! However they changed their minds again.

FODCOM re ATSOCAS (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/FOD200825.pdf)

SAFETY REGULATION GROUP
FLIGHT OPERATIONS DIVISION COMMUNICATION
25/2008
Applicability: All AOC Holders and General Aviation Pilots
AIR TRAFFIC SERVICES OUTSIDE CONTROLLED AIRSPACE
1 Introduction
1.1 The purpose of this FODCOM is to inform AOC holders and pilots of changes in procedures that have been developed as a result of the review of Air Traffic Services Outside Controlled Airspace (ATSOCAS) which will be implemented on 12 March 2009, and the Air Traffic Control procedures to be followed in the interim.
2 Background
2.1 The CAA initiated a review of ATSOCAS as a direct response to Air Accident Investigation Branch and AIRPROX reports, which raised concerns about the lack of standardisation of air traffic service delivery and the resulting confusion that this caused. The ATSOCAS review is part of the Airspace and Safety Initiative (ASI), which is a joint CAA, National Air Traffic Services, Airport Operators Association, General Aviation and Ministry of Defence project to investigate and address major safety risks in UK airspace in a number of different areas. Working Groups have been established to consider ATSOCAS, infringements, airspace design and classification, equipment carriage, and off-route commercial operations. Further details on the ASI can be found at www.airspacesafety.com. All ASI stakeholders have been involved in the development of the revised ATSOCAS procedures.
2.2 During 2007, amended ATSOCAS procedures were developed. A period of formal public consultation closed on 14 December 2007. Since the closure of the public consultation, the draft procedures that form CAP 774 UK Flight Information Services have been reviewed, updated and amended where necessary. In association with the procedure development, Radiotelephony (RTF) phraseology has also been fully reviewed and agreed, which will be published within CAP 774 and also be reflected within CAP 413 Radiotelephony Manual. A consultation response document which answers comments made during the public consultation is available on the CAA website at www.caa.co.uk/consultations.
3 Implementation of ATSOCAS Procedures
3.1 The revised ATSOCAS procedures are associated with a range of air traffic services that are designed to cater for a wide variety of airspace users and operations within UK Class F/G airspace, whilst meeting the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) requirements for both Flight Information Service and Air Traffic Advisory Service. The services will be published in CAP 774.
3.2 In order to provide an adequate window for conversion training the revised ATSOCAS procedures will become effective on 12 March 2009. CAP 774 will be published on the CAA website (www.caa.co.uk/publications) on 16 June 2008.
3.3 A wide-ranging publicity and education plan has been developed by the ASI Communication and Education Programme, to ensure that all pilots, controllers and Flight Information Service Officers (FISOs) are fully aware of the revised procedures. In particular, an educational CD has been produced that will detail the new procedures and their use; including audio and radar examples of key procedural scenarios. The CD will be posted directly to all licensed commercial pilots, controllers, and FISOs in early June 2008, and subsequently sent directly to all recreational pilots in Autumn 2008. The CD will also be available for download from the ASI website on 16 June 2008.
4 Extant ATSOCAS Procedures
4.1 Current ATSOCAS procedures remain valid until 12 March 2009, and all pilots should understand the various services that are currently available, which consist of:
FLIGHT OPERATIONS DIVISION COMMUNICATION - 25/2008
2
(a) Flight Information Service (FIS);
(b) Radar Information Service (RIS);
(c) Radar Advisory Service (RAS); and
(d) Air Traffic Advisory Service (within Class F airspace only).
4.2 Further information on current ATSOCAS can be found by referring to:
(a) CAA Safety Sense Leaflet 08;
(b) AIC 48/2004 (Flight Information Service in the United Kingdom - Pink 65);
(c) AIC 119/2006 (Radar Service Outside Controlled Airspace - Pink 107); and
(d) UK AIP ENR 1.4 paragraph 2.6 (Class F - Advisory Airspace).
4.3 Pilots should be aware of the difference between ATSOCAS and Lower Airspace Radar Service (LARS). LARS, as detailed in the UK AIP ENR 1.6.3, is provided only by those notified Air Traffic Service Units to aircraft operating below FL95 within defined times and geographical areas. ATSOCAS are air traffic services that may be provided in Class G airspace, either as a part of LARS provision or to aircraft in communication with non-LARS units.
5 Recommendations
5.1 AOC Holders should review the procedures published in CAP 774 and amend their Operations and Training Manuals accordingly. All flight crews should be made aware of the contents of this FODCOM.
5.2 General Aviation Pilots should note the contents of this FODCOM and familiarise themselves with the contents of CAP 774.
6 Queries
6.1 Any queries as a result of this FODCOM should be addressed to Head of Flight Operations Policy Department at the following e-mail address: [email protected].
3 June 2008
Recipients of new FODCOMs are asked to ensure that these are copied to their 'in house' or contracted maintenance organisation, to relevant outside contractors, and to all members of their staff who could have an interest in the information or who need to take appropriate action in response to this Communication.
Review FOI(A) April 2009

So now you know, as well as google, FODCOMs are also your friend!

silversurfer808
6th Jun 2008, 16:28
I have read the CAP - unless I am missing something it is the same services and apart from a few minor changes, it is a rewritten and renamed version of the current ATSOCAS I am afraid... I don't think that the new 'RAS' definition makes it any clearer for civ atc, if anything it has been overcomplicated.

flipster
6th Jun 2008, 17:31
The bottom line should be;

"This change will improve flight safety"

If this is true, fine.
If not, the change is a waste of time and money. By causing any amount of confusion, it may have the opposite effect of that intended.

Any ATCOs care to comment?

zedder
6th Jun 2008, 17:45
Obviously blocked by the landline as usual flipster! Try again.:E

Lurking123
6th Jun 2008, 18:27
The whole exercise was originaly centred around standardising the service provision between various agencies (mil/civil etc). Somewhere along the line (I'm guessing ATSOCAWG or ASI) someone had the bright idea that new terminology would force the world to stop and learn all the procedures as designed. Not a bad idea apart from:

a. You have to get the names right (ie they should be immediately recognisable and the label should describe what is in the tin).

b. You need to accept that, in x year's time you will have to re-brand again because everyone will have slipped into their old habits.

c. Ideally, you should take note of ICAO SARPs.

d. You should prove (through an Regulatory Impact Assessment) that the proposed changes will actually bring improvements and that associated costs are reasonable.

Alternatively, you could get your big stick out and beat the various service providers into submission, making sure they get their acts together and actually provide a service iaw the regulations. Obviously that would require a bit of proactive regulatory action rather than the risk averse attitude that currently purveys.

There was nothing too much wrong with RAS/RIS/FIS that couldn't have been fixed with a couple of ATSINS and balls from Gatwick.