139 Down Abu Dhabi

[Brian Abraham]

Report third hand or so of a 139 accident. All onboard perished (two crew and Sheikh. Sheikh in front seat). Just telling the story as told.

News item here which I guess is accident in question.
http://www.uaeinteract.com/docs/Sheikh_Nasser_Bin_Zayed_Al_Nahyan_dies_/30434.htm
Sheikh Nasser Bin Zayed Al Nahyan dies
posted on 03/06/2008
The Ministry of Presidential Affairs on Tuesday announced the death of Shaikh Nasser Bin Zayed Al Nahyan, the brother of President His Highness Sheikh Khalifa Bin Zayed Al Nahyan. Sheikh Nasser died on Monday night when the helicopter carrying him and his colleagues crashed over Gulf waters.
In a statement, the Ministry of Presidential Affairs announced a three-day mourning period starting Tuesday, during which ministries and government departments will remain closed.
His Highness Sheikh Mohammad Bin Rashid Al Maktoum, Vice-President and Prime Minister of the UAE and Ruler of Dubai, also declared a three-day mourning period starting on Tuesday in Dubai.
Funeral prayers for Sheikh Nasser and his colleagues will be performed at the Sheikh Sultan Bin Zayed Mosque in Al Bateen.
President Sheikh Khalifa will receive condolences on Tuesday at Al Mushrif Palace after the funeral service.

[spencer17]

Confirmed. All on board dead. RIP
Just on Yahoo with one pilot out of Abu Dhabi.

[IntheTin]

http://www.gulfnews.com/nation/Government/10218137.html


Report here. R.I.P

[hobiecat]

RIP John....................

[tottigol]

Was that the Dubai's Royal Wing AW139?

RIP to all involved and prayers for the families.

[hobiecat]

Yes...........A6-BBB

[Demented]

No.....ADA 139......RIP Obaid and John

[cmacltd]

Yes I heard it was an ADA machine. RIP John, good man & true

[gulfwatcher]

RIP John, very sad for all involved...

my thoughts and prayers go out to the families

[expatron]

Rest in peace John, Obaid and the other pax

[S.M.S]

My thoughts and prayers go out to the families



What are the causes of the accident?

[Aser]

R.I.P. :sad:

First 139 operational crash as far I know.
There was another one during test flights in Italy.

Take care.

[hot 'n dusty]

cause of accident unconfirmed... CFIT
Waiting for the police to release the CVR and FDR to make it conclusive.

Commander in back of Helo, Sheik flying!
Night flying on instruments with co-pilot "in command":ugh:

RIP John, condolences to the famalies!

[heliski22]

I believe you're right Aser, first one in service.

What say we wait until the data is taken from the FDR/CVR and then see what happened on the basis of hard evidence rather than hearsay.

In the meantime, condolences to all those left behind. Tough time no matter what caused it.

22

[.Aero]

and an unspecified number of colleagues were killed

Sad news for all those involved - but you can't help but wonder who these other "colleagues" were that lost their lives? Are their deaths of no importance? There has been zero news about the circumstances! Why???

If there is any truth to what some of you guys are suggesting re PIC, will that ever be made public?

[MrLeGuen]

My first thought was `helicopter crash` when the radio stations all started playing laid back music in Dubai today..

[told]

My condolences too to the families and the friends of these guys ...
Damiano

[Foggy Bottom]

Haven't been with ADA for many years. I realize that it is too soon to release any full names, but perhaps the nationality of John? I know a couple of John's from my days with ADA.

Thanks

[maxgross]

So sorry to hear this news. Can someone PM me with John's last name. I also have spent time with ADA

[Brian Abraham]

I too was most intrigued that the news items had no mention of others, just the national. Question. Do the UAE aviation authorities issue public reports on these sort of events?
Condolences to the friends and families. RIP Gentlemen.

[Carte blanche]

Very Sad news indeed,

For those in the know... How transparent and open is the crash investigation likely to be ??

Are the aircraft fitted with CVR?

CB

[.Aero]

How transparent and open is the crash investigation likely to be ??

Sadly, as horrible as this sounds, I'm not very optimistic it will be because of who was onboard which ofcourse will only fuel speculation and rumours. I find that to be unfair to the grieving family members, and the aviation community at large.

Only time will tell.

[RayBan]

The Captain was John Hanley an American who has a wife and child living in Thailand. John was Chief Pilot before becoming Operation Manager with ADA. Too early to speculate on cause of crash but John was definitely in the back seat of VIP aircraft. Co-Pilot and Shaikh at the controls...what was that all about. Tragic mistake that caused the five fatalities.

[griffothefog]

Can someone in the know p.m. me with the name of the co-pilot please?
RIP John.

[Lightonwheels]

My heartfelt condolences to all those left behind to grieve the irreperable loss.
It will be in the interest of us all who fly the AW 139 and in the reputation of the manufacturers of the 139 to make public the reasons for the crash. In the meantime as professional courtesy demands we should stop speculation and not spread rumors.

[TRE52]

Condolences to John's and the others families. Certainly a larger than life character in the aviation industry. RIP mate.

[RayBan]

National Co-Pilot's name is Obaid Al Mahashdra.

[S.M.S]

http://www.qatarshares.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=29098&stc=1&d=1212588991

[Hughesy]

Not much of a horizon there.
Just a thought, and not meant to get any one's back up but maybe overwater flight with a poorly defined horizon and a small unoticed ROD.
Similar thing happend to an offshore machine which i read about on prune.

Condolences to friends and family.

[rehnas]

john hanley [ 0perations manager ]

[hot 'n dusty]

Hi Foggy
John was american, Married to a Thai lady and was living in Thailand.
His Body will be sent to Thailand within next 2-3 days

Hot 'n dusty

[cmwangs]

This is indeed a tragedy, and is incumbent on those left behind to learn from this, regardless of cause.
What is certain is this presentation of our own mortality, our abilities and responsibilities is now up front and very personal.
We cannot, and indeed should not take for granted even the slightest issue with our profession.
Who is right is never the issue; what is right will always surface.
My condolence to the Families and friends.
Yet another tragic loss.:(

[S.M.S]

Not much of a horizon there

The accident was between 19:45 to 20:00 !

[sk76driver]

sad thing is john would have felt the "pressure" on this one...........:ugh:

RIP John............

[raul duke]

The 139 has both CVR and FDR, both of which are in the hands of the UAE Airforce now.:suspect:

[Hughesy]

The accident was between 19:45 to 20:00 !

In my country its pretty light at that time in summer. although im not sure whats it like over in the UAE.
In northern Canada we never have issues with an horizon in snow conditions that time of day.:rolleyes:

Still as sad event.

[S.M.S]

In my country its pretty light at that time in summer. although im not sure whats it like over in the UAE

dark night ! :ouch:

[hobiecat]

Hughesy:


Our snow storms over here in the Gulf aren't nearly as frequent as yours?:ugh:

[Waylon J]

His name was JOHN HANLEY.

[Waylon J]

Transparency ??? I hope.
The FDR/CVR are in the hands of the UAE Airforce and are supposed to be sent to Agusta for processing.
I guess Agusta may send the unit back to Penny & Giles or the NTSB for analysis.

[Brian Abraham]

Info gleaned with no comment to accuracy etc etc. Apply all caveats.

The pilots were a local captain (Reasonably experienced, but only a couple of hundred hours on type. He was instrument rated on a 412, and had a CPL) and deputy ops officer as copilot (Experienced and fully qualified, but only flew occasionally, and then mainly due to shortage of pilots.) Picked up 3 passengers to take to an island, one being the minister of police and brother of the president. He apparently insisted on getting in to the copilots seat, and John Hanley, the copilot, reluctantly got in the back. As they left the lit up area they were cleared from 1000 ft to 1500. The radar trace shows they climbed somewhat erratically to 2000ft, slowed to 40kt, then descended rapidly off the screen. It took 8 hours to find the wreckage, which appears to have crashed into shallow water in a flat attitude with no forward speed, possibly with engines off. One theory is that it somehow got into a vortex ring. The air force has taken over the investigation, and have the flight and voice recorders, don't know if cause will be released as it may be deemed to be embarrassing to the royal family.

[Foggy Bottom]

The Rainbow Sheikh??

[tobmia]

The data you appear to be an authority on is indeed without merit.

The co-pilot was not ticketed on a 412, in fact he was not current at all. IAW with the current GCAA CAR's he was not qualified to be in the aircraft for the engine start.

Please, before the uninitiated whining starts allow the healing process to continue and the families to grieve their loss.

Sources tell Agusta will not be given the FDR/CVR and only attend the unveiling. An expert, certainly not SHAME-GUSTA, is en route to allow for a quick closure for local custom.

The Airforce in all their folly will surrender the data to GCAA/ADA for a truly complete assessment

Those not educated enough to be sensitive to Islam need not apply, as was the author of the preceding photo who has been incarcerated.

The current manning level at ADA has ONE licensed engineer for 20 helicopters. The saving for the operations department is that they BLAME engineering for the lack of serviceable aircraft for customer demand, this driven by an impotent employment committee that advocated the banishment of Aussies.

There has only been a single expatriate on site for the two days A6-BBB was in the water. Being as he is the single most experienced AW139 in the gulf the answers to your questions will be without substance.

[S.M.S]

one being the minister of police :=

they have question why the ELT did not work ? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[international hog driver]

Well in true gulf style this is sounding like a Right Royal F:mad: Up of extreme proportions.

The truth of this will never come out given whom the passengers were. But given what has been said, add your buckets of salt and then some.

An accident that should never have happened.

Thankfully in our mob all clients are banned from the front end they have all been explicitly told to turn right at the top of the stairs!

Ma’a salama

[tomotomp]

tobmia

I am confused, are you saying that the crew composition was different to that as stated in the post by Brian Abraham:confused:The pilots were a local captain (Reasonably experienced, but only a couple of hundred hours on type. He was instrument rated on a 412, and had a CPL) and deputy ops officer as copilot (Experienced and fully qualified, but only flew occasionally, and then mainly due to shortage of pilots.)

[Hughesy]

H Cat

What I was getting at is a lack of horizon can happen in snow conditions, or over water which looks like the case in this event (just by what im looking at in the photo). And obviously a lack of horizon can make flying rather difficult, even for experienced pilots.

[Scissorlink]

they have question why the ELT did not work ? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Unfortunately two reasons an ELT doesnt normally work..one it gets wet .e.g as above

second, if the crash is that bad its not an emergency to find the wreck.e.g everyone is dead :uhoh:

SL

[sox6]

Did this aircraft have an offshore fit with a CPI or just an airframe mounted ELT?
Are the Gulf conditions similar to the West African Harmattan?

[Scissorlink]

Apologies FlungDung we don't operate that type in NZ as we have had numerous ELT's that haven't gone off after heavy impact or that have been drowned in the drink I can think of FOUR right now if you like, A hughes 500, R22, EC120, Cessena 185..Actually they probably have operated in the split second they made contact with water/ground

SL

[HVHmt]

Hughesy!!!
The machine is quite capable of flying without a horizon, even at "night".

[westpoint]

Your Gleaned Information Is Wrong.either Get The Correct Information Or Say Nothing So That Truth And Accuracy Can Be The Vehicle To Define The Real Events.perhaps You Should Keep Your Gossip To Yourself

[jolly girl]

Please excuse my naïveté but let me make sure I am reading this correctly…
We have experienced the first fatal accident of a helicopter with an all-digital cockpit suite. The accident may have have occurred in weather conditions that were MVFR at best. The CVR and FDR have been recovered but have not yet been downloaded. Why isn’t this community screaming? Heaven forbid it was an issue with the hardware or the interface that led to this event (not saying it was, just laying out the argument, lets be honest, MFDs do go dark), a data point that would (if the data is not reviewed) otherwise go undetected for some other poor souls to discover….
Is anyone pressing (manufacturer, crew families, etc.) for the data to be downloaded? Is there any way we can support these efforts?

[TukTuk BoomBoom]

yup read dozens of these post accident threads. they all go the same way, a bit of info comes out then everyone starts guessing and then it gets real weird and irrelevant.
Its the best and worst of this site.
This should have stopped about 10 replys ago...but carry on, everybody get their hokey theories out.

[Hughesy]

So does that mean they were flying on instruments only? Or do you think it is quite possible they were flying VFR?

[DECUFAULT]

It was a UFO...which passed by at the speed of light and caused wake turbulance...:eek:

[Brian Abraham]

Your Gleaned Information Is Wrong.either Get The Correct Information Or Say Nothing So That Truth And Accuracy Can Be The Vehicle To Define The Real Events.perhaps You Should Keep Your Gossip To Yourself
I take it westpoint you can be relied upon then to advise the aviation community of the publication of the accident report when it becomes available. Any time line on when that may occur?

[skidsock]

Hi Brian,

Not trying to sound too pedantic, but would you please correct the spelling of Abu Dhabi on this thread? Condolences to all who have been affected by this tragedy.

[ketchup]

Jolly Girl,
Your asking the questions no one is wanting to push, but wanting answered.
I'm asking the same but don't see the names that would be current to the AW139 forum here. Maybe we should take it there?
K

[TukTuk BoomBoom]

hate to burst your bubble "K" and "jolly girl"but no one gives a S..t what you guys want. You can go round in circles with comments about the weather being "MVFR at best" and assumptions on whats happening with the CVR/FDR then go into a spin over all the possible options on what happened.
Augusta dont care what a couple of people on a website want, it will all happen (or not) independent of you.
Relax and wait for the report like everyone else, or if you have NEW information lets hear it.

[Salusa]

Actually TukTuk some of us do give a s..t.

Facts in the ME pertaining to incidents of this nature in which a ‘loss of face’ may be seen to occur tend to have a habit of either being buried away or conveniently 'blamed' upon a scapegoat or even put down to the 'Insh'Allah' factor.

I would say it is in Agusta's interest to release the pertaining facts as soon as practical.

That said, I do agree that none of us should be jumping to any armchair conclusions, but should let the investigation process continue without making unfounded comments or opinions.

[jolly girl]

For the record, I in no way meant to imply there was any defect, latent or otherwise in the AW139. I was merely trying to present an arguement that could be used to gain access to the CVR/FDR data and suggest that instead of whining on an anonomous web site we lend our voices to support these efforts. But since you are happy with the status quo, I'll go back to my knitting.

[spinwing]

Jolly Girl,

Its really not a case of "Not being concerned" its more a case of those who have real experience of how things are done here know there is no point in trying to force an issue...... you will just NOT get anywhere.

I would suggest to all ... leave it alone ... wait and see .... eventually ALL WILL BE REVEALED .... I hope!

No aircraft have been grounded ... does that not tell you something?

:(

[TukTuk BoomBoom]

Spinwing thats a much better way of saying it.:)

[cmwangs]

Hear Hear!! About time someone took the lead. It is unfortunate that the numbers of whiners and BMG's are on the increase. Dear Lady, please do not go back to your knitting! We, the positive need you.
Every time there is an accident or incident of any magnitude, the horizon clouds over with the equivalent of road accident rubber-neckers anxious to spread their venom with speculation, questionable knowledge and ofttimes accusations and falsehoods.
It had been requested before -
1. There are families suffering as a result of this accident.
2. Let us ALL as professionals show some respect. Their loss is also our personal and professional loss.
3. No amount of speculation is going to change the facts. When the results are known, let us all take a step back and understand and realise we are not perfect, - and it can happen to us.
4. If it is that negative tendencies cannot be restrained, then at least exhibit some modicum of common decency and remain silent.
5. A very wise Bush Engineer in Labrador offered the answer: I may live with animals, it doesn't necessarily follow that I should be one.

[stacey_s]

thank you very much for that very nonconstructive thought

[S.M.S]

we are not perfect, - and it can happen to us

:ok::ok::D:D:D:D:ok::ok:

[anjouan]

cmw,

Thank you for the voice of reason :ok:

Firstly, no matter the real reason behind this tragedy let us please all wish our heartfelt condolences to the families of those who have died.

Secondly, you are quite right that too many people here have been just like the rubberneckers at a motorway accident. Even an all EFIS cockpit has standby electromechanical horizons, ASIs VSIs and altimeters. Any experienced IFR pilot is capable of operating on these even in the event of a total electrical failure.

The actual cause may never be known given the people involved, though there will always be conjecture in a case like this. No matter the real cause, no matter those who are probably speculating based on the real evidence, this is a real tragedy for the families of those involved.

RIP all those departed.

[dar]

Looks like I got out of there just in time.

[Azzy]

First of all, I would like to extend my deep condolences for those family who lost their closest family, The CVFDR (Combi) which have been recovered & secured by UAE SAR, has been downloaded by team (Augusta, UAE SAR, GCAA) and handed over to UAE GCAA in data gathering / analysis phase, as it is very complex accident /manoeuver it will take some time to determine probable cause.

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

I am not a very experienced poster but it seems to me that when these awful things happen half of you seem incapable of seperating the emotion from the issue/facts.

I really do not know anything about what happened to this flight but I would like to guess that nobody set out to die that day......an accident happened!!!!!

I feel that this rumour forum is the correct place for those of you with inside knowledge to try and help the rest of us make some sense of the reasons why or how this accident may have happened.

Worrying whether the investigation will be transparent or that the truth will be delivered is in my view not the real issue. There are plenty of terrible accidents that haved happened where despite massive effort and resources the final outcome is inconclusive.

For the postings above it is possible to form the impression that a fully trained competent pilot not only gave up his crew station to another person but he may well have felt pressure to do so. Well I would hope I will never be in a position to allow that to happen to me or my passengers. Anyone else out "there" under the same kind of pressure...get out quick!!!

Market forces dictate everything in business. I find it really difficult to digest that such cultures can be allowed to exist in avaition. There are really plenty of well paid jobs flying serious helicopters for serious companies without any of us having to face this kind of test of our moral fibre.

If this is the issue, then it can only be addressed by those involved. Voting with ones feet is sometimes the only way to make the point!!!

I would ask that we get some real discussion on this accident and the tit for tat bitching between those of you who are in the know, and those of you who want to be... take it outside.. or get a room!!!

[Hippolite]

Doesn't look like there was much RRPM or forward speed at impact looking at the photo..........

[gulliBell]

Regarding the ME factor that's frequently being referred to in here, if I remember way back (2002??) when that Gulf Air (A310??) ploughed into the sea off Bahrain (??) just after dark, with 2 nationals at the controls (?) there were commentators left right and center going around here saying of the ME factor, the truth will never be known because of those involved, likely to be a cover-up etc etc. But if I recall, the truth did come out, eventually, and I reckon the truth will come out here, eventually. So let's wait and see.

[johnthanley]

My name is John T Hanley. I just received word of my fathers death last night. I cannot express in words what I and my siblings are dealing with. John P. Hanley was one of the best men you could have ever met! John adopted myself and my 3 siblings when he married my mother in the states years ago. I contribute all my success in life to the man and love him dearly in life and death. I spent many days as his co-pilot when he was flying a beechcratf e90 twin engine for a small oil firm. He was one of the best in the field and it hurts so bad to know he lost his life and wasn't even at the controls. To hell with the Shiek! We have all lost a good friend, father, mentor who has worked his ass off his entire life to get to the position he was in. I will be calling his Thai wife tomorrow with a translator to let her know that if there is anything we can do we are here for her.

If anyone has any more details or information on his death please, PLEASE contact me at any time at the information below. You guys be safe in the air and I hope his replacement serves you all well at ADA



John T. Hanley
[email protected]
210-882-7522

[cmwangs]

John,
You and I have never met, nor did I have the opportunity to meet with your Father, but we are thrice joined by coincidence.
Since that terrible day last week, I have had conversations with two pilots who worked with, or were trained by him, and both remarked their astonishment and deep regret.
Please accept, and pass on to your Family, as well as to the Family in Thailand our deepest condolences.
Please be assured that this unfortunate happening will remain as a point of reference to which most will refer in times of doubt or pressure. Those who deny this reference are destined to history; Lady Luck is a fickle creature.
Please do not hestiate to email should there be the need.
CMW.

[heliski22]

John,

How very courageous of you to come forward in what must be truly heartbreaking circumstances for you and your family. I didn't know John Snr at all but please accept my condolences on his tragic and untimely death.

22

[Brian Abraham]

John,
As the originator of this thread may I say how sad I am for the grief you and your family are going through. All the professional aviators that grace these pages I am sure are of the one mind, that they too could so readily fall afoul of what ever it may have been that brought an end to a good man, your father. I never knew your father, but it is obvious that those you did held him in high regard. It is a sorry comment that the country's authorities may see no need to investigate the circumstances of the accident and seemingly prefer to consign the memory of your father John, and the others who lost their lives, to the dustbin, while declaring a three day period of mourning for their Shiek. John, a wordsmith I am not, but I hope the under lying sentiment comes through. Words some how seem so inadequare on occasions such as this, but I hope you, your family and your friends can navigate the shoals put before you and once again find peace.
It is my hope that the truth will with out. To hell with the Shiek? - you bet.
Bless you and Yours, we too cry in your loss,
Brian

[soggyboxers]

I knew John during my brief time with ADA some years ago. To you, John junior and all his family I offer my condolences. The pain will eventually soften and he will still live on in your wonderful memories of him. RIP

[island eagles]

It saddens me to know that such accidents continue to occur especially with the induction of an inexperienced crew member into the cockpit at night:ugh: Whatever, I hope that all facts will be revealed...otherwise speculation will be rife. After so long a promising safe helicopter comes along ...let it be!:sad:

[PPP412]

Hi Folks

Just got an email this morning from a friend at ADA, the FDR and the VDR have been analysed, the 139 was in perfect shape, this accident was CFIT
(controlled flight into terrain). To put back a few things in perspective, the weather in the UAE is rarely IFR, visibility in the summer is reduce due to haze, but is rarely IFR, pilots overthere, never really have a chance to pratice
real IFR flying, like we do in North America, the North Sea or West Africa. The sun or the stars are shining about 360 days a year ovethere, and the sad thing is that the peoples in the third floors in Abu Dhabi Aviation do not believe in simulator training, so none of the guys overthere, had simulator training on the 139 or the 412 except a very few guys in the training dept.

What we had there, a complex machine with a low time pilot on the 139at the control and a useless VIP on the other seat, J.Hanley was in the back
and of course, useless as well, could simulator training had prevent the accident? I let you come up with your owns conclusions.

[Shawn Coyle]

From what I've heard about the flight profile, it makes me wonder if they knew and understood the AFCS / Autopilot and how it functioned....

[PPP412]

I did not personnely seen the tape, i`m not anymore in Abu Dhabi but i still
have somes very reliables contacts overthere, from what they told me, the
helicopter was clear on take off to 1500 fts for a West departure, wich is the
normal departure for helicopters heading offshore, they busted 1500 and went up to 2000 fts, they never really maintained a strait and level flight up to a point where they started a steep descent at low airspeed, someone mentionned 40 kts in a previous thread, they crashed near Futaisi Island wich is about 18 miles west of Abu Dhabi and is a waypoint on the West departure and on all helicopters GPS of the company. You`ve seen the photo, you can tell that there was almost no forward airspeed when they chashed, the rotorhead with the blades still attached to it, is sitting right next to what`s left of the fuselage.

[maeroda]

hello to everybody,

maybe my question is inoportune, I don't know ADA at all: is it legaly possible for a Captain have a pax straped in the cockpit, leave the COP in the back, and still go on with the flight without concerning about SOP and insurance?:*

maeroda, italy

[PPP412]

No it is not legal, in the UAE, only a medevac can be done VFR at night, all
other flight should be IFR and IFR require 2 IFR rated pilots in their respective
seat, now one thing that i`ve been told was that J.Hanley was the Captain of the flight but was initially in the copilot seat and Obaid, the National, was the copilot for that flight, i do not know if Obaid was a qualified captain or not, but he was on the Captain seat, Sheik Al Nayan got in the front while
J.Hanley was outside in the back loading the 2 other pax , he went back to the front to try to get back to his seat, but apparently the Sheik wanted to stay in the front, due to the hight rank of Sheik Al Nayan (he was the brother of President of the UAE), John went relutanctely in the back with the other VIP.

[SASless]

This tragedy begs the question....."How does one say "No!" to a customer?"

Sometimes it is very, very, difficult....and will probably end your employment.

I did ride in the cabin of a Sikorsky S-76 while two Iraqi pilots I had given Conversion training to drove us around for an hour. It was done as a sign of confidence to them regarding their demonstrated performance during training. Actually, it was probably one of the least wise things I have done in my life. Now if my ex-wife had been available.....hmmmmmmm!

[PPP412]

I agree with SASless, it is sometime difficult to say no and that is even more true in the UAE, as ADA is more or less a government company, the
biggests shareholders are members in the highests ranks of the government and the Royal Family, to say no may be the end of your career in the country, however, there is time where it is better to say no and loose your job, instead of loosing your life, i`m sure this accident will serve as a lesson and new rules will take place at least in the UAE, to prevent this type of accident to happen again, but it remain to be seen where the blame will fall,
either J.Hanley will be blame for it or either, nothing will come out and they will try to hide everything.

[johnthanley]

Yes there was fault in John Hanley's decision, but When the presidents brother jumps in the front and probably demanded to fly what is John to do. If he were to pull rank and make an ass of the Shiek then his career would have been over in UAE. As his son I wish he would have put the Shiek in his place and found another job. At least he would be alive along with the rest of the crew! He will be dearly missed along with the other passengers. Condolences from the Hanley family to all who have lost their loved ones in this tragic event.

John T. Hanley

[fluffy5]

yep it is very unfortunate, but with such a high profile chap on board, every one know's out here in the vvip circuit, you say no once and you have your plane ticket back home in 24 hr's.
gossip on the grape vine, and I am willing to be corrected, because of the high profile accident the orders from above is that the accident will not be investigated. my condolences to the families.
fluffy

[Good Vibs]

Did not a high ranking, non rated person land an S3 Viking onboard an aircraft carrier off the coasts of california several years ago?

[jolly girl]

I’ve always felt the best way to honor those lost in an accident is to use the lessons to keep others from the same fate.
If I can be of assistance honoring John, please advise.

[helipilot214]

Very Sad. My condolences to the families.

If the CFIT holds true as a root cause(still an assumption) it will still be contributed to the over 80% human factor related accidnets in Aviation.
I agree; it is very difficult to say no in such cases. It was probably difficult for Captain J.Hanley to ask the low time copilot to go sit in the back instead of him so he can assume control of the Aircraft in the cockpit as a required crewmember. Who knows what had exactly happend!!

[FH1100 Pilot]

I know there are those who say we should not even discuss any accident until the full investigation is over, and man, I almost hate to weigh-in on this thing. But as a long-time pilot I can't resist offering my thoughts.

What helipilot214 says is true: Who knows what happened! I think we can be fairly sure of only one or two things: 1) John was not sitting way in the back, seat reclined, feet up, not a care in the world. I'd be willing to bet real money that he was right there, between the pilot seats, "coaching" them as third crewmember. I know I would have been.

Secondly, it was *not* CFIT, that much is obvious. The term implies that the aircraft was under control up to the point of impact. But the 139's contact with the water was surely not "controlled." If they hit at such an apparently low forward speed, then neither of the two "pilots" had control of anything, certainly not the airspeed and absolutely not the altitude.

It's a very sad accident if what is alleged is true. We can only wonder after the fact what any of us would have done in a similar situation. (For the record, I often fly over dark-dark areas at night with my unrated boss. He sometimes wants to "take the stick" and see what flying in such conditions is like. I always decline, sometimes forcefully, because I don't want the possibility of him putting us into an attitude from which recovery would be difficult even for me. He grumbles and complains, but it's just too damn bad and it tests my skills of diplomacy to the max, as many of you out there can undoubtedly sympathize.)

[SASless]

Is it fortunate or unfortunate I have very limited amounts of "tact and diplomacy"? (Like none really!)

I made it a rule that upon saying "No".....the more someone up the greasy pole of management tried to coerce me into flying....the more adamant and less tactful I became about stating I would not fly.

At one location I told the CP...."The keys are in it....you're wearing your bars....have at it big boy!" The CP told another pilot to take my co-pilot and aircraft and get flying. The shock on the CP's face when the Co-pilot said...."If my Captain doesn't go....I won't go!" was very amusing to all but the CP.

Being single, having no children, and being debt free made it a lot easier stick my neck out on those very few occasions when job security was at risk for saying "No".

[Shawn Coyle]

Good vibs
He did not land the machine. Only flew in cruise for a short while.

[Zipper104]

This thread is about the sad demise of a truly good man. Your name should be classless.

[SASless]

Zip,

Point out where I criticized anyone or made any suggestion as to the cause of the accident?

i have addressed my remarks to the pressure pilots experience to fly when they are confronted by employers or passengers refusing to take "No" for an answer.

Each of us at some point have been confronted with that situation and have made our own decisions as to how to handle the problem. Just as in other aspects of flying, we make our decisions and then have to bear the results.

I would suggest this thread discusses an extreme case of just such an event. The amount of pressure John was under must have been very intense. For there to have been such a tragic outcome makes it all the more heart breaking.

[johnthanley]

I am John's son. I will miss him dearly. I know all of you have different thoughts and opinions regarding this unfortunate situation, and that's what is good about freedom and liberty. You are able to speak your mind and have your own opinions. I have been watching this forum daily and have no ill will to anyone who has commented. I am not a pilot, I chose to make a living in the natural gas transportation business, so much of what is said here I have no clue.... (Acronym's) etc. I do know this.... Although it is most likely to happen in the future under different circumstances (loss of life) I want you all to know that if there is anything to be learned from this accident please apply it to your moral and proffesional decisions. You guys and gals serve a very important purpose in this world. Some of you may feel it is just a job to pay the bills, but you are all very skilled individuals. Please be safe and learn from others mistakes. I just hate that you have to learn from my fathers. I wish you all the best as my father would and hope not to here of anything like this in the future..... Happy flying.

John T. Hanley
[email protected]
210-882-7522
Texas

[griffothefog]

After having worked here in the ME for 8 years I can tell you this... John would have been under extreme pressure to give up his seat. His thoughts in those few moments would have been dominated by fear of losing his job, security, family et al, and when you are faced with a situation like that you WILL relinquish... Hindsight is a wonderful thing and with that particular crystal ball to hand I wish (IF THE BACK SEAT THEORY IS PROVED CORRECT) he would have shaiked the hand, bowed gracefully and kept walking all the way back to the security of his smokers seat near the hangar and gracefully watched the superior departure... :(

[Shawn Coyle]

Where does one get training on how to handle a situation like this diplomatically? That is, keep the job, but don't compromise on safety?
Are there any good examples of how to do this?
Should we start another thread on this subject?

[smile 412]

I'm feel not very sad about John, he was part from the Management and did the same to another employs, when somebody refused to do a flight, so are give John only one way, you do the job or you are fired. This is the culture in ME.

[johnthanley]

Not sure if your english is good enough to express true feelings, but if you are saying you don't care about John Hanley because he has done this to others you can kiss my a$$. John Hanley is one of the best men you would ever have the opportunity to meet.


Sincerely,
John T. Hanley

[johnthanley]

Guys and Gals,

My dad died in a tragic accident. Please inquire to the cause and make a personal commitment to use your common sense and best judgement in your future endeavers based on this event so that it doesn't repeat itself. I am not in the aviation field, I decided to get into the natural gas transportation field so many of the acronyms used are unfamiliar to me on these threads. All I ask is that you all come together as pilots (disagree or not) and fly safe. Make the right decisions when they are put in front of you. You are all a very valiable asset to this industry and to the world in general. I cannot say enough good things of the personal sacrfice you introduce into your daily lives! Fly safe and feel free to contact me at any time.

John T. Hanley
210-882-7522
[email protected]

[jolly girl]

Gentlemen,
Please use some prudence when posting to this string - the family is reading. A new thread has been opened to discuss the pressures placed on aircrews to perform a flight - lets post related comments there and reserve this string for memories to honor the fallen.
J.

[BellBoy796]

First of all, my heartfelt sympathy to John Hanley, Jr., his siblings and to his Thai family. Also to Obaid al Marashda's family. They'll be living with this accident long after the rest of us have moved on.
Secondly, I'm a long time pilot with ADA and flying the AW139 so have a keener interest in the root cause of this accident than most. I'd like to assure other AW139 pilots that, according to a source very close to the investigation with first hand knowledge of the contents of the FDR and CVR, that there was no technical fault with the helicopter. The full report is forthcoming.
I'm no apologist for ADA but to its credit it has been made crystal clear to its pilots that they have the full backing of the company if forced to deny a VIP access to the front seats. This being the Middle East such a memo, of course, is trumped by a phone call from someone more 'connected' than the ADA manager who wrote the memo, but it does show the intent is there to back up its crews should the situation John faced be repeated.

[Brian Abraham]

BellBoy, Thank you for your post. Would it be too much to ask for you to come back when the report is made available and post a link? Have found navigating the ME aviation authority web sites some what difficult in that an equivalent to the USA NTSB or British AAIB does not seem to exist.

[cmwangs]

John,
Don't let them bait you. In every profession there are the good, the bad and the ugly.
Smile 412 or whoever you are - shame, son - no need.
This is not an incident - this is a memorial for those who died - for whatever reason.
PLEASE STOP rubbing salt in open wounds.
WE are ALL affected by this, one way or another.
WE have ALL been in that position, only difference is that we were lucky enough to have survived.
STOP!!:( Put yourselves in John Jnr's position.

[mtoroshanga]

While obviously feeling for the affected families I cannot help feeling that this kind of string is less than helpful.
Hang in there Stacey_S, my thoughts are with you. Have been in your position when the 330J went in in Mirri and know its not easy.Hang in there mate.

[Desertico]

John was a US Citizen living in Thailand for past several years. He leaves a wife and a 2 year old child. He'd been with ADA for some years.

[between2chairs]

ELT is ELT406-2HM with no water switch and manufacturer gives accelleration rates for trigger, generally require more than 6 g's. On the AW139 it is fitted on the bottom of the tail boom just behind the cargo bay.

[Desertico]

He was John Patrick Hanley and a fine Man. RIP John and Obaid and the others.

[PPP412]

To the gentlemen who questionned CFIT, you need to know that this term
mean that a perfecttly flyable aircraft was put into the ground accidently by
his crews, this i`am sure, what i`m not so sure is, does that stand for CONTROLLED FLIGHT INTO TERRAIN or CONTROLLABLE FLIGHT INTO TERRAIN, the second version fit the description a bit better, however, it is obvious that
when a crew put a perfectly flyable aircraft into the ground, they lost control of something.

As for John sitting in the back, but being somewhat, between the 2 guys in the front with a full view of the cockpit, unless they have changed the configuration of that aircraft during the last year, it would have been
impossible for him, A6 BBB was the first AB 139 that came to the company with the Royal Jet colors and with a full VIP interior, wich was a 6 pax configuration, 3 seats in the back+3 aft facing seats, maybe there was divison between the back and the front, but i dont remember, there is not much you could see or interact with this arrangement.

[BellBoy796]

I'll post what I learn as soon as I hear something.

BellBoy

[Brian Abraham]

BellBoy, Thank you, but we hope for a more detailed insight than just a read out of the CVR and flight data. I'm sure you know what I mean.

[tarzaniac]

I arrived at ADA the same week as JOHN in 1992 and we became good friends while flying the line over the next 4 years. He regularly referred to abiding love for his family back in Texas, in particular his son JOHN. A terrific sense of humour, serious fisherman, intrepid golfer, and generally the kind of guy you always enjoyed having a beer with! In 1996, I joined him on holiday in Thailand where his infatuation with Asia was about to launch him on the second phase of his life and he was extremely enthusiastic about it. My condolences to both families for they have truly been deprived of a GOOD MAN. Rest in peace Capt. J. Sincerely, Grant W.

[rotortuna]

For all those that cannot resist commenting and adding further discredit to yourself the following is exact data on A6-BBB, serial no. 31028.

A6-BBB was never an Agusta Westland airframe as she was purchased well in advance of the change over from Bell. To that end she was registered with the GCAA as an AB139, not Ab 139, and her registration is A6-BBB and not A6 bbb.

INFORMATION LETTER
DATE: October 24, 2006
No.: AW139-06-001 Rev. 1

“AW139 and AB139 are two names for the same product.
They identify two batches of aircraft manufactured in conformity with a unique Type Certificate Data Sheet:

- AB139 up to SN 31054
- AW139 from SN 31055 onward."http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=bxcsxklong9&thumb=4

She was a beautifully constructed and proudly maintained 5 (five) seat VVIP airframe with Bose Noise Canceling intercom for passenger comfort.

There was a solid wall partition installed that restricted movement between her passenger compartment and her flight deck, the design of which had a narrow gap and centre relief to facilitate installation/removal while providing limited passenger view forward. Additionally the installation of her Lounge Chaise style seats would have created a great obstacle to navigate over in the unusual flight regimes she apparently was experiencing. Between the two most rear forward facing seats was a chiffonier of sorts to facilitate storage and presentation of refreshments.


Affectionately known to those of us who cared for her and crewed her as

"Triple Bravo".


http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=bxcsxklong9&thumb=4

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=metdnyx2j0h&thumb=4

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=z4kysi0vf1j&thumb=4

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=jxmnmg4b1dt&thumb=4

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=zxmlwjbqwxt&thumb=4

[stacey_s]

well said Rotortuna, you as all Engineering Employees of the parent Company of 'Triple B' will not only miss the crew but also understand the implications of losing an airframe in your (our) charge, as Engineers, and I use that title "Engineer" correctly. RIP The crew, we the Engineers will wait for the results of the investigation, we will not speculate,m we know better.

JTH we feel your loss as our own.

[johnthanley]

Tarzaniac,

Thanks for the kind words. We will all miss him here in Texas. The reality still has not set in.


John T. Hanley

[johnthanley]

Thank you stacey_s. I appreciate the support from all of you!

Sincerely,

JTH

[tribal]

Hey Allwornout,
If it is so bad why are you still there?
In all my years there I never heard of anyone being shot in a Mall. It must have been recent.
ADA does carry some problems for sure, but usually made worse by individuals banding together and crying, making the problems seem worse.
As to what happened to John, for sure , had he been at the controls we wouldnt have a result to talk about. There are a number of issues at play, the series of events that led to this unfortunate accident. It will not be a simple matter of pointing a finger at ADA, John, Obaid, or any other party. there is one issue that does shine through , and that is the position a pilot is placed in when faced with a powerful local. For John I believe the options were limited, as I understand the VIPs were picked up at a coastal location. It was not simply a matter of not riding along, there was no way home for the guy. Sure it cost his life, but he must have had enough faith in the remaining pilot onboard. Albeit, in hindsight, incorrect.
Very shocking and very sad news, and hopefully this will paint a glaring picture to the Arab aviation industry, that their own rules are in place for good reason, and that no exceptional cicumstances are to circumvent that. Because at the end of the day they are designed for their safety.

[Foggy Bottom]

You guys do realize that this accident is going to be Johns fault dont you? There is no way that the arrogance of the local Arabs will allow anything else.

[paco]

More likely the Sheikh will be declared a hero for steering a stricken machine away from the crowds on the beach

Phil

[griffothefog]

And before anybody scoff's at Paco's quip.....Yes the beaches are packed with BBQ parties at night in the UAE :ok:

[allwornout]

What makes you think I am still there??? You are jumping to conclusions..

The reason you have never heard of the girl getting shot in the mall is that the UAE censors all media just like hard line communists. Your knowedge of UAE politics seems a little shallow. Check with the (Mohammed from Al Ain) police at the airport. They know the story.

Any pressure John was under the night of the accident is miniscule in comparison to the pressure he is under now to restart his heart. And what about the pressure his estate would be under to pay the legal bills to fend off a law suit from the Royal Family?

criminal negligence
noun(law) recklessly acting without reasonable caution and putting another person at risk of injury or death (or failing to do something with the same consequences)

Clearly this meets the definition.

[GMacKay]

Spent some time with ADA. Sympathies and condolences to friends and families.

[doddle]

I have not worked for ADA in the past, but have spent 9 years with Aerogulf.
I understand the pressure that John was under and the resultant chaos.

John...RIP and all understanding to his bereaved family and friends.

This kind of thing just happens, whatever anyone says, it's all hindsight. The reality is that decisions were made, ce la vie.

**** Happens.

[zalt]

**** only happens when people let it.

[cmwangs]

Zalt,
My point exactly. The Bean Counters produce balance sheets that end up as black or red and no amount of argument or discussion will change that color. By then it is after the fact, and what we have to do is to make sure it does not happen again by changing the way we think.
The sooner pilots realise and understand that the buck stops with us the sooner the better.
John has paid the price, it is up to us, individually to continue the motion to ensure it was not in vain.
CMW.

[between2chairs]

My mail is that Agusta Spa now have all the MFDFR data in hand.

[tribal]

allwornout.
what makes me think you are still there is your location is listed as Abu Dhabi. And you really understand the politics there huh, as for me, 10 years long enough for you?
Cheers

[Koalainfoplease]

I used to work for ADA some years ago, but I can not picture John.
Perhaps John Jr or someone (with approval) could post a photo of him ?
If this is not appropriate then I understand. Sincere condolonces to his family and friends.

[majid]

The Helikish pilots are so sorry to hear this sad news.RIF John, remembering those moments that I had meetings with John ,when he was chief pilot.My(Majid Aghighi )and all Iranian pilots condolences too to the famillies and the friends especilly to George Tucker ,Raman Oberoi.

[spinwing]

Mmmmmmm ......

Yes .... its still there!


:confused:

Well it was when I just looked! :E

[kflexer]

Shame this thread has gone quiet, I thought for sure that it would keep going until there was some answers, or at least rumours from those in the know. How quickly we forget.

[Brian Abraham]

kflexer - It may have gone quiet but is not forgotten. Should there be nothing official I'm sure there may be an explanation by way of rumour forthcoming, but it may take a while.

[Rokan1]

This event will never be forgotten, and although rumours abound, we must exercise patience and await publication of the official AIB report.

[Azzy]

Dear All
I would like to sympathised to all of this member and particularly to John T Hanley. GCAA can not publish report yet as it is still in final stage, GCAA is drafting the DRAFT final report and will be distributed as per ICAO Annex 13 to all concern and Part 830/831 as a guidance.

I know you must have heard rumours and majority is correct.

So to clarify your curiousity, It was human factor and there was sudden induced of rudder pedal in two step from neutral at 1700ft, to half and to full deflection in few seconds and there was a last correct recovery action to the but not enough height before entering in to CFIT.

I Hope this fact will clarify ambiguity.

regards
Az

[2 Dogs]

Was the Sheikh concerned by any chance endorsed on type ???????

[outhouse]

2 Dogs,
Go back and have a look at the detail of the thread, its quite clear what the situation was. At some point in time an official report may be forthcoming though I personally will not hold my breath looking for it.
My deepest sympathy is with Johns family and the sadness that will continue.
As unfortunately happens in the area concerned, fact and fiction tend to be a confused issue and may result in a less than acceptable final report if and when it should surface.
outhouse

[Eng AW139]

:confused:

[2 Dogs]

Outhouse ......
perhaps u should go back and read the thread.

GCAA can not publish report yet as it is still in final stage, GCAA is drafting the DRAFT final report and will be distributed as per ICAO Annex 13 to all concern and Part 830/831 as a guidance.Sounds fairly promising to me.


I read the thread and saw no mention of the Sheikh's qualifications.


In the ME do not members of the ruling class spend time with the Military, flying both jet fighters and helicopters? I believe several pilot their own machines on a regular basis. I was just enquiring as to whether HH Sheikh Nasser Bin Zayed Al Nahyan was maybe one of them.

Not an unreasonable question given the circumstances, surely?

[S.M.S]

Here in the ME many members of the ruling class spend several years with the Military, flying both jet fighters and helicopters

:ok::ok::D:D:ok::ok:

[outhouse]

Sorry, will look forward the forthcoming report from the GCAA. I am sure that it will clarify any misconceptions and also include the required detail re crew qualification and certification.
Returned to my hammock, enjoying the local red and a good book.

outhouse

[johnthanley]

Anyone hear any details on this? Seems like it has just been forgotten.....

Thanks,
John T. Hanley

[RoToR_V8D]

Not forgotten John.T.

I am hoping a report may be released soon - but that's just hope. I don't have anything to base that upon. Just don't want you thinking for one second that this is forgotten :rolleyes:

[spinwing]

Mmmmmm .....

I doubt that any report will be released or any further reference made with regard this incident.

Very sad but that is the way it will run I think.

:(

[spinwing]

Mmmmm ...

Outhouse,

Quite simply... those involved in this incident (and their families) are aware of the details.

Everybody else is on the "need to know" basis and "the powers that be" have decided that they "don't need to know!"

Its not necessarily the GCAA that is being obstructive I would suggest they also have been told (by that higher power) that nobody else will be interested.

Welcome to life in the Gulf.

:hmm:

[outhouse]

Post deleted, and comments noted.

[J.A.Hanley]

Thank you for your support and prayers. My step-father was a wonderful person who is going to be missed. My prayers are with his family in Thailnd, and our relatives elsewhere. He was the most amazing pilot.

John's step-daughter,

J.A.H

[heliski22]

Anything new here, official or unofficial?

22

[Demented]

NO..................

[island eagles]

Does anyone know where we can get a copy of the investigation report?

[spinwing]

Mmmmmm .....

What investigation report?


:confused:


(Perhaps you have not been paying attention to what has been in this thread!)

:(

[fluffy5]

Spinwing is right, the report will not be forthcoming, the gossip I have heard floating about now from a few indicates that this will be turned around and around until the conclusion will be far from the truth, the outcome will effect small operators in the UAE. My condolences to the familes.
fluffy

[johnthanley]

Hard to believe it is just over a year since this unfortunate event! :( Still no report to speak of!:ugh:

Safe flying everyone

John T. Hanley

[stacey_s]

Hi John

Yes marked it quietly, did not forget
Regards
Stacey

[Steve Davis]

Got the news yesterday on this forum of John Hanley's death. I dont know what led me here but it was a shock , I am having a hard time with it. I called little John his son in Texas last night it was probably the saddest night of my life. We talked about Big John and when he was young in Rock Port Texas when we both flew for ERA HELICOPTERS. That was in the early 80s when LITLE JOHN was 9 years old. After that I called a few of Johns old friends that went back to his Army days in the late 1970s. We shed more than a tear. You see none of us got the news, everyone back in the states in his old friend circles were in the dark. After the Gulf and his King Air job John went to UAE and we had very little contact. Some of us went on to airline jobs and corporate aviation. All of us, myself, DON ROLLER, ROGER BARKER , MARTY MARSHALL and GLEN FARLEY thought of JOHN P HANLEY as a family member and brother. I met John the first day of boot camp, we became lifelong friends. John had a lot of flying time from his bush days in Alaska, what story's. His dad Pete got killed there in a Vol par crash, that broke Johns heart, his dad was his idol, and what a idol, P-40 pilot Air Corp major (ret) then he went to work flying for Air America in S.E. Asia. John grew up there he even had a pet Gibbon (monkey) as a child, what a great life, that is why he had a fascination for Asia. I can say this John always missed his dad, Asia, and Alaska, John is with his dad now. God bless you John we love you.

[Steve Davis]

Any friends of John would you please contact me with your personal thoughts. John was my lifelong friend.

[RIP98]

Hi Steve. It's Debbie. Since this happened, I've thought of all of you so often. He always told me that he knew he would die flying. Something he accepted many years ago. I miss him, the kids miss him. He was an incredible man and father. Contact me please. I'd love to say "Hi" and maybe get some contact numbers for Glen, Roger, Jim and Don. My email is [email protected].
Debbie Hanley