Job prospects for JAA fATPL in a far away land..

[Leeds1972]

Right guys I'm jumping the gun a bit here. I'm currently studying for my PPL but intend on goin onto Atpl, CPL etc.

With the credit crunch and economic downturn, its increasingly worrying for us all finding a job as a pilot.
I've thought many times about just packing it all in, as its my life savings im planning on spending, following my dream.
Yet i've already got a trade and no real chance of going any higher in a job that I really dont enjoy. This is my last chance in following my dream.

I feel no matter what some people say on here that the economic cycle will always go full circle and one day pilots will be in demand and everything will be rosy once again.

So here is my long winded question, if once qualified (long time away, i know) whats the chances of gaining employment in one of the up and coming countries ie Africa, China, India etc.. I feel this maybe the only way for me to follow my dream and become a pilot without gaining a type rating or goin the integrated route. I dont care if im flying donkeys over the sahara of or Bandi toys out of China in an old prop.

All honest advice welcome and greatly appreciated..:D

[MIKECR]

I think your looking at realistically 2 years before completing your training. Its really too far away to make any reasoned judgement on what the job front will be like. The airline industry changes rapidly and at present the employment prospects look pretty poor, certainly within the uk and europe. It is however booming in China and India and there would appear to be plenty jobs. The vast majority would appear however to be for already experienced pilots. There are of course exceptions but if you read the recruitment agency jobs, its all Boeing and Airbus pilots with min 500 - 1000 hours on type. It is a risky time to be entering training just now, but as your rightly say, everything is cyclic. The oil price will level at some point, its has to. When that will be is anyones guess. My personal thoughts are that the biz jet and corporate route is the way to go. Flying will eventually becoming the privilage of the rich.

[Flex_Thrust]

I'm in a similar position to you. I'm 35, got my PPL in Florida 2006, and just did my first re-validation. I failed selection for Oxford but they said there was nothing to stop me being a pilot. I am about to resign my job to eat beans on toast for 2 years whilst I take the first step of doing the ATPLs. Luckily for me I have a contact in Ryanair who reckons he can put my CV under the correct nose. However, bearing in mind my age, and *the other things in life* I'm setting my goals more realistically and would be just as happy to fly the ATR for Aer Arann! ...Even if the ATR Type Rating is as expensive as B737/A320 - its getting your foot in the door!
The ATPLs are not a massive risk - 6 months of swatting, we'll see how I get on with that...
thats my plan - things will improve - read Flight International - theres more airframes being built now than ever and the ATR being efficient - its ound to be more popular!

[Okavango]

I'm also in a similar situation as you guys. My heart says yes, though in the current economic climate my head says no. However, the situation we'll enter is so far off, I guess there's as much reason to continue as stop. I just think we need to minimise the risks and review the situation along the way. So this is my plan. For me, an integrated course would be a HUGE risk at this time. So I'm going modular and will maintain employment, at least for the first 10-12 months. So:

Gain PPL
Start hour building
ATPL's - Possibly get the first module during holidays from work, but will have to leave employment at some stage, so this will be the first check on the industry. Then:
CPL
MEPL
At this point, if it looks good, I'll go straight to IR/MCC then apply for airline jobs. More realistically, I'll take any job to build experience and contacts, most probably going down the FI route for 12-18months. If after this period, the situation is still not good, I'll return to my current career and just take part-time/weekend flying work to keep me current.

For me, the only constraint to this plan is the time period of 3 yrs for attaining the IR after the ATPL's, so at some stage a decision will need to be made as I wouldn't want to go though all the studying/cost again.

This to me looks like the least risky way forward. We also need to look on the bright side in that at least we've got something to fall back on. What's to say we (or any current airline pilot) will maintain a Class 1 medical through to retirement? Good luck to all and I'd appreciate any feedback on my intentions...many thanks in advance.

[CraigyD]

Okavango, your plan is very similar to mine, starting in April next year:

FAA PPL (Thinking Angel City Flyers In SoCal)
ATPL GS (DL with Bristol GS whilst working part time)
Hour Build in the US (Back to SoCal)
JAA CPL (With Stapleford Flight Centre)

Think I will then assess the market, my finances etc. Either follow the FI route and fly as often as I can whilst keeping a part time job in a bar or something for a year or so, then finish ME/IR, MCC with Stapleford OR complete ME/IR, MCC with Stapleford straight after CPL and enter the lions den!

Going either route has its advantages and disadvantages, but, I need to get in that postion before I start to get to worked up about it I guess!

Craig

[Teeks]

Craig, how much have you budgeted for that scenario? Looks like a good plan to me, I might do the same.

[hanlem1]

Hi All
I am taking what some of ou call the risky route as in the integrated route with sigmar aviation.As I approach thirty time is of the essence and fourteen months training is long enough before applying for jobs.I think that when it comes to the interview the integrated route is looked on more favourably than modular.It is going to cost me 120,000 euros with a type rating but hey I dont mind going to any corner of the earth for a few years to get the relevant experience.I currently have no ties so this is a perfect time for me to start .I know there is a down turn looming but its not the first and wont be the last.Only my openion

[CraigyD]

Hi teeks, this is just a rough budget at the moment but hoping its quite realistic!! The prices I state I hope should cover all fees, visas, test, going over hours, accom in the US and so on.

FAA PPl £7000
ATPL GS £4000
Hour build in US £8000
CPL £6-7000
ME £3000
IR £15000
MCC £3000
FI £6000

Around £47k for (f)ATPL + FI rating. Not to sure how realistic this target is but hope it should cover all my costs. Im in a lucky situation where I don't have to pay accom in the UK and I can finance up to CPL with my own money, but from then on its loan money to finish the rest :bored:

[Dane-Ger]

I think the need to be flexible and travel anywhere to fly anything is a must for any newbie.

Lets face it, limiting yourself to only wanting to fly from your local airport or just for three airlines just won't cut it in the present climate.

the world is out there waiting (if we can still afford to buy a plane ticket:))

[pickykxf250]

hi guys, i am just about to start my integrated training at Cabair. I know theres lot of doom and gloom at the mo but it seems to me its from the people who have jobs (may be trying to put people off a good thing;))
anyhow i don't care if it goes up down left of right im going to become a pilot no matter what and it think this is the way you have to think. I have seen a lot of people saying they are going to wait and watch the market or wait for a better time. If you think like this there will always be a better time. The time is now and if you think like this you will get a job. sorry if i am going on but if you are about to start your training like me there is a lot of bad vibes at the mo so im just saying sod that live your dream and don't let the negativity of others get you down. i was told when i young if you deliver good service you will always be sort after.
this is the way i see it. good luck guys ill see you in the air:)

[Okavango]

I'll back up CraigyD's figures as mine are almost identical, albeit I'm hoping to get CAA PPL for £7k (hopefully with night rating included). All my research suggests this is doable, though I have spoken to a Ryanair FO who went modular and reckons he spent £90k!!! This is including Type Rating (obviously) and also living costs throughout so our route all in for ~£60k which is a bit of a worry. I'm continuing my research as I do my PPL as FTO's tend to be not the people to believe......!!!

[Teeks]

That looks about right to me Craig. I'll have around 35k saved, so I'm hoping I can get most of it done and then borrow the rest.

[jb2_86_uk]

good luck guys ill see you in the air :)

You'll be seeing me in the classroom for 6 months first matey! :ok: Glad to have found someone from my course though!

JB

[Flex_Thrust]

Leeds 1972 – You’re way too concerned about the age thing. I’m 36 in Feb and confident of flying the ATR. Had a look today on Flightglobal.com and theres loads of adverts there. In fact it was seeing them thismorning that the idea came to go far away (its what I do just now, except for 4 month blocks!) might be the thing. I wouldn’t mind doing month about somewhere, there were other adds for 6 weeks on 2 off. Then there was Emirates (Wow! – no problem working for them! ). I think you DO care where you end up, we all do, it has a direct bearing on the rest of our lives. So for me, I can (only just) afford the TR myself, so it’s a tossup between the prop, where I might well GET A JOB, or ‘gamble’ a bit more on the jet. Maybe even an airline like Kingfisher that operate the ATR as well as a host of others – if you get your 4,000-5,000 hours perhaps there’d be the opportunity to get a jet rating through them?
‘I've thought many times about just packing it all in, as its my life savings im planning on spending, following my dream.’I’m in exactly the same position as you. And I’ve got a €1600 p/m mortgage. And my missus is 32.
’Yet i've already got a trade and no real chance of going any higher in a job that I really dont enjoy. This is my last chance in following my dream.’I’ve got a trade too, I like it but I’m 6m away a year, and I could climb one more step but don’t want to be like my ‘line manager’!
Mark todays date on the calendar. Order PPL study books. Mark another date 4m hence. That will be the date you have your first licence. (I added in time to study [I]and work and pass your exams before going to US and just nailing the PPL!
MIKECR 2 years is about right I’d say. You’ll see some places advertising 0-F/O in 9m!!! About as likely as building a ship in 4 days – possible, but not at all likely;
Okavango Wouldn’t you get the rating? I think it improves your chances of employment.
CraigyD I did a couple of 10hr blocks in Stapleford. I think its good there – wouldn’t recommend the White House to stay in! Some good instructors. They’re connected with Astraeus, don’t ask me how. And if you can handle Staplefords runway(s) you’re doing fine!
Teeks – Where are you in Antarctica? (So am I!)
Hanlem1 Think the airlines do prefer integrated, but will accept mods.
Pickykxf250 That’s the spirit! Just go for it and be fanatical about it! I feel so glad now I’ve decided to start the ATPLs and sorry I just didn’t do it sooner, I really am.

http://www.skyblueaviation.co.uk/index2.asp?id=455 and download the pdf at the end. It IS all marketing of course but it does seem like a safer bet somehow.
[Excuse length of post, gents]

[RogueOne]

i'm in very much the same boat as you mate... i hope all goes well.. you sound like your further down the decision making road than i am..

[Okavango]

Newkid - yes, in all probability I would eventually get the IR rating, just most likely not straight away. This is mainly as I want to go down the instructing route for a year or two rather than straight into airlines so it doesn't make sense to spend the cash early. However, I do think you're right for the general case as if a chance of employment does come up then you've got to be ready to take it.

The one thing I haven't researched is what is necessary to keep an IR current - does anyone know? The other thing I wonder is if you were say happy to continue instructing for a while and didn't get your IR within the 36 month deadline after ATPL theory, you must still maintain the CPL theory aspect, so how at a later day would you revalidate the ATPL theory - surely you don't have to resit the whole lot again?

[Flex_Thrust]

Okavango - Sorry, I actually meant the Type Rating! As far as the IR is concerned go to http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=1591
paragraph E1.5 (Sect E pg 6) deals with renewal, E the IR in general.
I'd also be interested to know about the ATPL becoming out of date...

[Okavango]

Newkid - no I don't think I'd go straight for the TR without an offer of employment - too much of a gamble. I'm possibly being idealistic or looking through rose tinted glasses, though about as far as I'd go to fund my own TR would be only if there was an offer of employment subject to this requirement. I'm not sure this kind of pre-employment agreement exists but I don't want to fan the flames of people going out and gambling thousands of pounds - I think we already put a fair financial commitment in.