Italian NH 90 accident 1st June 08

[CS-Hover]

Don't know if posted in another forum/thread

http://www.adnkronos.com/IGN/Fotogallery/?pag=1

today.... :(

one of the pilots, RIP.

[206Fan]

Flipn hekkk, when did that happen??:eek:

[Phoinix]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9udHazZurHc

RIP :sad:

[206Fan]

That made the hairs on the back of my neck stand..

RIP:sad:

[HershamBoys]

NH-90 accident occurred today, June 1, during an air display at Vigna di Valle, the Italian Air Force Museum on Lake Bracciano, north of Roma.
:(

Also today, an Eriksson S.64 crashed while picking up water from a lake in Northern Italy, but on this occasion the two crew got out.

[Aser]

Oh! ***** :eek:

:sad:

R.I.P.

[HalloweenJack]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9udHazZurHc

Just got news today of one of the NH90 helicopters had a crash in Italy while showing off a rolling turn. It all went pear shape when the helicopter failed in the turn at low altitude and crashed into a lake, the pilot was killed.

These helicopters are built to withstand heavy crashes and it was lucky not all on board were killed.

[ASV]

Nh90 !!! :{:{

[Bicontatto]

The Video on u-tube has now been withdrawn (Thankfully)

RIP

[tottigol]

http://mediacenter.corriere.it/MediaCenter/action/player?uuid=815a643c-2ffc-11dd-a286-00144f02aabc



A couple of weeks ago another crew landed briefly with the gear up and a multistar general rank officer onboard.:eek:

Condolences to the family members of the deceased crewmember.

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd80/cenciotti/Ali%20sul%20Lago/CRW_9491_wm.jpg

[Buzz Control]

7 of....They are here: http://www.repubblica.it/2006/05/gallerie/cronaca/bracciano-elicottero/1.html

[Yo767]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NPvog2Q9d8

[Senior Pilot]

David Centiotti's WebLog (http://cencio4.wordpress.com/2008/06/02/nh90-crashes-into-bracciano-lake-during-an-airshow/):

An NH90 helicopter, serialled MM81519 EI-202 of the 1 Gr Sq of the Italian Army based in Viterbo crashed on June 1, in the Bracciano Lake at 15.15L causing the death of Cap. Filippo Fornassi. The other 2 POB (People On Board) were rescued and survived the injuries. The aircraft was at the end of its display in the Ali sul Lago airshow in front of the Italian Air Force Museum, at Vigna di Valle airport. I was attending the show when I saw the helicopter performing a fiesler with an apex at low altitude: as soon as the aircraft’s nose was diving towards the lake, I understood that the pilot could not recover the chopper before touching the water. The aircraft touched the surface of water and broke up in many pieces before ditching.

[birrddog]

That's some photo.

Can anyone here familiar with the NH 90 comment on the maneuver?

With the limited set of facts available, is it possible to comment if this was done at too low an altitude, or if it may have been mechanical related?

[malabo]

"A Fieseler is an aerobatic maneuver named after Gerhard Fieseler. The pilot puts the aircraft into a vertical climb, then quickly points the nose straight down into a dive (by using yaw from a rudder or tail-rotor), pulling out at the same altitude as the maneuver started, but with the nose of the aircraft pointed in the opposite direction."

Also known as a "hammerhead" turn. I think the Cobra guys used the manouver to deliver ordinance straight down on otherwise defended positions.

Clockwise propellers go better to the left and counterclockwise main rotors (like on a Bell) go better to the right if I remember my hot dog days. Anybody current on this is welcome to correct.

Just looked at the video and it looked to me like more of a wing-over than a hammerhead. There was a pull-up, then a sloppy looking left roll to vertical with almost a bit of tuck. If it hadn't over-banked to vertical it probably would have worked out. As it was, not enough altitude to recover. It hit the water flat, and you can see the nose jerk up slightly just before it hit the water - that would be aft cyclic control input. I looked at the still picture of it hitting the water and again it looks like the pilot was doing what he could putting pitch on the blades. Another 50 ft and he would have made it.

[Sukhoi332]

Bad news! :(:(

On the footage, I can see during the descent, 2 lightnings located close the air intake. Any idea? the weather is grey, no sun....

[skadi]

I think, those lightnings are reflections on the windscreens...the airintakes are almost behind the main rotormast.
Another part is, the NH90 is completely Fly by wire, may be these computers limited the intended pull up???

Sad Accident

skadi

[jayteeto]

I normally don't comment on 'what happened here' videos, but all these fancy names for the turn don't appear to matter. It looks like a simple wingover carried out at very low level. What would help would be the video showing the entry height as it does not appear to descend that much after the turn. If you enter at very low level you give yourself NO margin for error. For everyone involved's reputation, I hope my simple view is wrong :(

[212man]

I wonder if there is a particular difficulty in judging (or misjudging) height over water when carrying out a display, as I can think of several other similar accidents involving Fixed Wing aircraft - RN Jetstream at Weymouth and RAF Nimrod in Canada.

[Shawn Coyle]

Anyone know the elevation of the lake in question?

[tottigol]

Shawn, Lake Bracciano is located about 50 miles north of Rome in a hilly volcanic area, the lake itself pretty much fills up a spent (are they ever) volcanic crater and the rim elevation goes to about 1200' within a couple of miles of the shore.
The NH90 performance took place after the National Aerobatic Team had completed their performance.
According to some witnesses the sky conditions and the lack of wind contributed to what is known as mirror effect on the water surface.
The a/c commander (Italian Army Captain) was supposedly highly experienced and was part of the development group for this type of a/c, he is survived by his wife and two daughters.

[Bravo73]

Shawn,

According to Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bracciano_Lake), the 'surface elevation' of Lake Bracciano is 160m. This is correlated by Google Maps which gives the elevation as 623ft.

[Lonewolf_50]

Apologies for the thread necromancy.
I was just sent a video of this mishap.
The tag was "liveleak" which I think is where it's currently posted.

It took me a while for me to figure out what aircraft it was, and what year ... I then figured I'd see what the PPRuNe Rotorheads thought about it.

The maneuver appears to be an attempt at a loop. That may be a limitation of single perspective/zoom of the person holding the camera. I'll try to see if there are other perspective clips to understand what was alleged as the maneuver being flown before they ran out of altitude. :(
The grainy film from the Italian site makes it difficult to see what it is he was doing.

Very sad to see one of the brotherhood lost to this, but grateful that two got out alive. :ok:

[Peter-RB]

My apology's Rotorheads for digging this up, the e mail I had was from a very excited pal of mine and I assumed quite incorrectly that it was fresh.

Also my condolences if this has caused any upset to friends of the Pilot involved.

Peter R-B
Lancashire

[Brassed Off]

LiveLeak.com - Helicopter crash into a lake.


Tragic!

[zlocko2002]

the event that you describe sounds like crash of NH90 that happened in Italy in 2008

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd80/cenciotti/Ali%20sul%20Lago/CRW_9491_wm.jpg

NH90 crashes into Bracciano Lake during an airshow « The Aviationist (http://theaviationist.com/2008/06/02/nh90-crashes-into-bracciano-lake-during-an-airshow/)

LiveLeak.com - Helicopter crash into a lake.

[Pittsextra]

Is the official report published anywhere online?

[Dg800]

Is the official report published anywhere online?

It's an army aircraft, I don't think they publish their reports anywhere you and I might have access to. :=

[Pittsextra]

Wondered if the Italians produced this type of report for example :-

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/service-inquiry-report-into-the-accident-involving-red-arrows-hawk-t-mk1-xx179-on-20-august-2011

[Dg800]

I'm pretty sure it's produced, AFAIK it is not made available to the general public though. If the aircraft had been on the civilian register instead you would then find the report here (http://www.ansv.it/It/Index.asp).

[Savoia]

Pitts: I'm not sure if there are any special 'revelations' to be disclosed in relation to this accident.

[Pittsextra]

I guess without the official report it all remains in the dark then.

[212man]

I guess without the official report it all remains in the dark then

I think from watching the video, it's pretty obvious what happened - it's not the first time and it won't be the last (Portland Jetstream, Nimrod in Canada for example.) All a report would show is the specifics of the error and possibly some systemic organisational problems (possibly - by no means implied as fact.)

[Pittsextra]

I'm sure you are right 212 - I merely ask to provide some balance to the recent focus on owner / drivers and any view that if you managed to earn a few quid through luck or judgement and as a result managed to realise you childhood dream of flying you are not pre-programmed to shunt and that even those who would be readily accepted as "professional" get it wrong...

[Savoia]

Pitts: I don't think there is any doubt about this. Anyone can get it wrong - anytime, anywhere.

Hopefully, within disciplined accountable regimes (such as the military) these odds are reduced but .. there are always (and always shall be) exceptions.

[Al-bert]

Pitts. I merely ask to provide some balance to the recent focus on owner / drivers and any view that if you managed to earn a few quid through luck or judgement and as a result managed to realise you childhood dream of flying you are not pre-programmed to shunt and that even those who would be readily accepted as "professional" get it wrong...

You seem pretty hung up on owner/drivers (your descriptor) v's Professionals (Civ or mil). Can I ask why? Are you an 'owner/driver', do you aspire to be, did you have a 'childhood dream of flying'?
I ask because you seem to miss the point, on the other thread, as to why many of us (current and ex professionals) think the JP Fire Service is an inherantly flawed idea.
Of course professionals can f'ck up too - we all can. Helicopter flying, at any level, is a risky business. It's just that years of training, thousands of flight hours, the constant critical appraisal by supervisors and colleagues, helps to mitigate most of these risks. Does the average 'owner driver' have these benefits? And as you keep pointing out, even mil pilots f'up sometimes.
Albert

btw: it's the guys in the pedalo I feel sorry for!:ooh:

[Pittsextra]

Hey Al-bert. Ha ha yes the pedalo had a grandstand seat!

Not really hung up on it just that recent threads, not just the JP fire service but also the Harrogate accident, the Mark Weir, Colin McRae and the thread on the correlation of wealth and private flying.

Don't misunderstand me I do think there has been some pretty poor airmanship in these case but there is also a bt of smugness (maybe I missed the humour or banter?) from some.

For my own flying I don't own a helicopter but I do love flying (with my PPL (A) and PPL (H) and am lucky to fly triple digit hours per year for my own enjoyment. I take pride in my own flying and whilst not maybe the best in the world I still like to think I work hard to be better.

I think I mentioned in a different thread but actually the 2012 AAIB report on all helicopter accidents make for an interesting view. Drivers with PPL (H) figure less than you'd think.

[Al-bert]

Pitts - I'm not knocking PPL's. In fact a good friend of mine flies an ex mil helicopter around the airshows and I would never denigrate his skill or professionalism. What I and others have tried to point out is the flaw, as I see it, in JP's projected operation. Others have pointed out the risks but I see it as little more than a PR excercise due to the type and capability plus the restricted availabilityof the machine.
The differance between a lot of PPL pilots and myself (can't speak for the rest of the pessimists) is, I didn't have a boyhood dream to fly. I didn't fly for enjoyment, although I did enjoy my job. It was my profession, it's what I did for a living. And I had a lot of people making sure I did it right.

[Pittsextra]

No fair enough Al-bert and yes I see this guy JP, even if he is well intended, does love PR. Maybe it suits his business? I don't know.

I hear you re: PPL's and it being a job for some others.

1979 Observers book of aircraft was the thing I got started with then you get distracted with the need to earn a few quid. Damn those bills!

[ShyTorque]

I used to display a very similar helicopter, for the RAF. The display was not simply me, doing something ad-hoc; everything was strictly controlled. I was selected to be a display pilot after an operational tour and two tours instructing. By then I had a couple of thousand hours and was serving as an instructor on the operational conversion unit for the type.

To "work up" to a display I was put with a previous display pilot, a more senior officer and more experienced type instructor who was already familiar with some of the more adventurous manoeuvres proposed. We discussed them one by one, on the ground.

We then flew together and he demonstrated them individually. I then practised, with him supervising as safety pilot and captain. We came back and discussed each manoeuvre on the ground again and what could go wrong, and how I would "escape" if things went wrong.

I was then sent off with my display crewman, to practice the individual manoeuvres, in a safe area. When I was happy I fully understood what I was trying to achieve with each manoeuvre, and how to do it safely and consistently, I was required to put together a proposed sequence. The manoeuvres were stitched together so the aircraft could be flown smoothly and without over-stretching it, or the crew, beyond their limits and with a margin of safety. For example, all turns were done away from the crowd.

The sequence was discussed with the other instructor. When he was happy, we were required to present the proposed display sequence to the Squadron Commander, who asked many questions and put forward a few "what ifs". The sequence was then authorised to be flown. I then flew the display at base with the Wing Commander and the Group Captain Station Commander watching. All flying was stopped for the event and the station fire crew were brought to immediate readiness.

After we had flown the sequence, twice, we were debriefed again. I was then authorised to practice the whole thing until everyone was happy to present it to the Air Officer Commanding, i.e. at Command level. We practiced regularly, at the end of the day's flying programme.

A video (from the ground) was made of the display and I was required to dub a commentary over it, explaining in technical terms what we were doing with the aircraft. This was sent to Command, for the AOC to review. A day was set for him to visit and again we flew it for him, as before. Finally, after more questions, the display was formally authorised, and a minimum base height included. I was then required to attend a joint services display safety briefing at Central Flying School, before the season began.

I displayed throughout the season, without incident, to a fair bit of acclaim. It was a fairly big helicopter and it made an impressive sight because we were flying manoeuvres not normally seen, and certainly not authorised in squadron service. We took the aircraft to its limits. Some people were convinced we were looping the aircraft at about four hundred feet- we weren't, but it was deliberately made to appear that it did, at least from the crowd line.

As an aside, I was given a couple of "non airfield" locations to display at, one of them being a large American comms base, for their families day. I was concerned about displaying there so I got permission to go off in advance to overfly and recce the site. I deemed it unsuitable because there was no crowd line, so on the day we flew in and did a static display instead. To my dismay, two other military helicopters who had obviously not recce'd, did display and carried out vertical manoeuvres directly above the crowd, which I thought totally outrageous and stupid.

The point is, in the case of military display flying, at least in UK, the whole thing is very strictly controlled. I have no reason to believe it is less so elsewhere.

It seems to me that the mistake made by the NH-90 pilot was a simple handling error on the day. He appears not to have put in enough in-turn pedal during his wing-over. The aircraft side-slipped into the turn, losing him height and delaying the achievement of his roll-out heading. By the time he realised he was too low, a very high ROD had built up and there was not enough recovery height available.

[Pittsextra]

Thanks for taking the time to post all that detail - a great insight :ok:

[AnFI]

To my dismay, two other military helicopters who had obviously not recce'd, did display and carried out vertical manoeuvres directly above the crowd, which I thought totally outrageous and stupid.

The point is, in the case of military display flying, at least in UK, the whole thing is very strictly controlled. I have no reason to believe it is less so elsewhere.

Is that contradictory?

[ShyTorque]

Yes, it is. They weren't RAF pilots though.

[Lonewolf_50]

ShyTorque:
Thanks for the clinic on display flying. :ok:

[nimby]

Ditto. One of the more sensible posts seen in my ... OMG how long was it since I last flew??? (off licking wounds and having a hot milk)



31yrs! (that'll teach me to count)

[Shawn Coyle]

To add my two cents worth-
I remember being at Greenham Common (does that date me?) in 1981 and watching a UK military crew put on a display in a large helicopter. The display pilot was evidently 'approved' by the appropriate authorities in their service.
What was particularly galling was that the display broke numerous limitations published in the operational flight manual. Regardless of whether there were any structural limitations really violated, the impression that must have been left with any operational pilots of that type watching the show was that 'limitations don't mean anything anymore'.

And we wonder why we have accidents like this one?

[MightyGem]

Ha ha yes the pedalo had a grandstand seat!
That is not even remotely funny! :mad:

Do we know if they survived?

[Pittsextra]

You can sleep easy again MG, only the pilot died, which is incredible as there were 3 POB.

[Savoia]

.. only the pilot died ..


I realise (to some) this loss may seem insignificant.

While I share in the feeling of gratitude that the remaining crew survived, I regard the fact that Filippo was a man cherish by his family (he was indeed their world) and someone who remains deeply missed by them and his former colleagues.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-tMKb_L_KrGs/UPf-oEphukI/AAAAAAAALgQ/nUVuX-pwtmw/s372/Capitano+Filippo+Fornassi.jpg

Capitano Filippo Fornassi

RIP

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-1S3R5NZ45nA/TzfDO25yWqI/AAAAAAAAHz0/3JuA7P2_Iz4/s49/Black%2520Ribbon.png

[Pittsextra]

.. only the pilot died .. I realise (to some) this loss may seem insignificant.

A little bit out of context....

However I've got to say, while it would be heartless and unfeeling to wish these events on fellow pilots, I'm not friends with everyone just because they happen to hold a pilots licence. As such there is a limit to my emotions over someone completely unknown to me.

The timing of some recent threads given yesterdays events is pretty unfortunate but lets remember why this thread got rekindled.

It merely follows on from some sneering remarks where some here (PPRuNe not this thread) tried to correlate private pilots (perhaps wealthy) with accidents.

Comments similar to "these people who have done well in other aspects of life think that they can fly, etc,etc...." have been made more than once.

As others have said before it can happen to the best.

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

PITTS - I know you will not listen but you need to re-read your posts on this thread and take a lttle time to consider the impact of the things you have said (I know you do not really mean them) on the Pilot's family, god forbid should they read them.

Flying, either professionally or for the pure joy of it, can be the most rewarding activity you can do. It can also be the most heartbreaking and tragic. Posts like this (although the event is several years ago) will be visited many times by people who are close to the individual(s) involved.

Sometimes its best not to post unless you can only say good positive things.

Professional pilots make no distinction between Mil or Civilian backgrounds. All we care about is that we all try to be safe and look out for each other. Thats what matters the most.

Its best to keep the wiesecracks and joisting for threads about rules and helicopter performance and other things that don't really matter in the grand scheme of things.

I think at least you owe SAVOIA and apology. His post in tribute reads like the Captain was known to him.

Best Regards

DB

[Pittsextra]

DB I agree.

Savoia and friends of the Captain I am sorry for my unthinking comments.

[Savoia]

Pitts: Thank you for this retraction. It was an appreciated gesture.

My greatest concern is however for Filippo's family. The internet is fickle and can be unkind to those with special sensitivity ie. his family and friends.

I might also call into question the whole matter of using this thread to pursue (by your own admission) an altogether separate agenda but .. let's leave that for now.