Virtual Aviation vs Flight Deck Technology

[mlee]

Hi, just wondered if anyone had much experience with these two companies, I know Virtual Aviation is a little more expensive, is it worth paying the extra?

[VirginSkid]

Hi

It is definately not worth paying extra for motion... do not get bought in by marketing etc. Virtual lease their sims from Alteon and that is why they are expensive. (additional Mark ups)

There are many providers who can offer you sim prep. Look around. Flight Deck Tech are using a Fixed based sim, built with a real 737 parts.... used with Microsoft Flight Sim, used by enthusiasts.

However in my opinion it will be the same and you will save a few pounds.

I have seen the dry hourly charges from BAFT and ALTEON and trust me - you will be surprised of the mark ups!!

Check out one in Dublin (737), OATS have one too, Real Flight Sim and there are more who can get you additional time for cheap...

Hope this helps.

[Doors to Automatic]

There is a massive price difference between the two companies.

Virtual Fight offer a three hour sim assessment prep plus a briefing/debrief of at least 1 hour for £590 (inc VAT).

Virtual Aviation offer the same but with a 30 minute briefing for £1628 (inc VAT) plus a surcharge of £48 per hour if you use an Alteon sim. (£1772!)

The Virtual Flight sim is not full motion but similar in other respects (MSFS is the base for the visual model only - everything else is in-house software/hardware).

With a difference of up to £1182 per session the question is - in the context of what a sim assessment prep is trying to achieve (i.e. CRM, procedures practice etc) is this a price worth paying for a Level D Simulator?

[Doors to Automatic]

The above account is full of inaccuracies and is based on a visit a long time ago when the simulator was in its prototype stage.

For example, the Virtual Flight sim is not "Microsoft FS2004 inside a shell". There is no aspect of FS2004 within the aircraft - it is only used as a base for the visuals. All systems, flight models and nav displays are FDT's proprietory data.

In our opinion the only "vast" difference between our device and theirs is the price. And with a 100% "Value for Money" rating so far on our feedback forms it would seem our customers agree.

[TurboJ]

I have no experience of VA -

However, I recently went to flightdecktechnology and for £600 I got excellent value for money, practised everything I needed to, got first class instruction and would thoroughly recommend them; the sim assessment I then did was on an almost identical sim; (and I got the job!!!)

In financially tough times, when the purse strings are being stretched ever more, I wouldn't have got any extra benefit from a full motion sim;

My only hassle with flightdecktech was it was difficult to find.....TJ

[BASCP]

I have worked for a full flight Level-D simulator provider and have seen many pilots go through various simulator assessments with various results.

However I have noticed that at such an early stage in the game there is no real difference in the effectiveness of training from using a full flight level-D simulator for assessment preparation compared to using a simulator without any motion.

I have used Level-D simulators at BA, Alteon and Oxford (GEcat) and have actually been down to visit the guys at Virtual Flight (friendly bunch) and used their simulator and can safely say for the difference in price there isn't much if any difference in the quality of training.

Level D simulators are used by airlines and for TRTO training, there is no need for this when preparing for an assessment providing that the motionless simulator is up to standard, which I can safely say the virtual flight simulator is!!

For the cost saving its well worth it!!

[Callsign Kilo]

VA - excellent, I would not have passed my sim check without them. Full motion 737-700 at GECAT LGW. Practiced everything I wanted to and more. Took away all the hoodo of the power-pitch couple and got my scan flowing. Also some excellent pointers from an ex BA and EZY Captain which paid off to great effect. Maybe pricey, however if you want that job I would seriously consider doing it properly in the real thing.

[VirginSkid]

Both are businesses and aim to maximise their returns - so they are not around as a charity.

If I was choosing, the main questions I would have are:

Why do I need a sim?
What price should I pay?
What will certification do for me?
What instruction will get?


Why do I need a sim?
I need to prep for a sim ride or etc. nothing fancy - a simple prep on what to expect. Generally it would be better to map exactly the type you will have sim ride on, but what are the airlines looking for? -

What price should I pay? and What will certification do for me?
I would like the cheapest price available - this is because the training etc is already very expensive so why pay additional amounts. From what I know, which I know may be limited, but certification will not really help me...

It could be certified to Level Z and so what? (sorry if that comes across too strong)

What instruction will I get?

30 mins is far too little in my opinion.

If I had the money available to throw - I would personally go to VA, but as I, like many training or just completed training, will be in debt will not have a lot of cash to throw could go to Flight Deck Tech or others.

[TurboJ]

Maybe pricey, however if you want that job I would seriously consider doing it properly in the real thing.

Sorry mate but that is a complete load of BS

If the difference is merely motion or no motion which I believe it is then whether you go to VA or VF it all comes down to how much dosh you have and who is paying !!!

BASCP sums it up nicely for me....

TJ

[Callsign Kilo]

Maybe complete BS to you TJ, but not to me and a lot of others!!! Should have added that this opinion is a purely subjective one, so whatever floats your boat and works for you I´d say!

And the difference isn´t purely motion, however the sim you had at FDT sounds like it fitted the bill. Motion, however, I felt made the difference as I had the effect of all 3 axises. This was very helpful in engine failure recognition and S.E. control (which I got in my assessment). Plus I had never flown anything with a turbofan prior to my assessment, so again it proved helpful.

All purely subjective, however not BS so don´t jump down my pipehole for making the comment. I am only lending an opinion relating to my perspective. If you have the money and are in a similar scenario to which I was in, then I´d recommend it - 100%. But that´s all up to you and the situation that you are in.

[VirginSkid]

Its horses for courses.....

As stated before, if you have the money go for it. If you don't, then don't get sucked in by the marketing and etc.

There will also be those - who have used VA and not got the job!

What would happen if someone could provide a similar product as Flightdeck tech but with full motion, the 3 axis motion platform only costs a few thousand dollars.......:-)

[TurboJ]

Kilo - It was the comment that riled me up.......

....to suggest that if you want the job you go to a full motion sim to do it properly, is, I believe, incorrect; I would have given anything for the job I went for; however £1100 at VA was not an option. £600 at FDT was perfect, within budget, to the same standard as VA and achieved the outcome I wanted.

just out of interest.......how are you gonna cope with engine failures on the fixed base sims before you transfer to the full motion sims during the TR ??

TJ

[Callsign Kilo]

Well, sorry for offending anyone. I will make sure my comments are of a non-offensive nature in the future! I can see why you may have misconstrued what I said? If you want the job it may not be necessary to go full motion in a certified sim. I felt it was for me, I had the cash left over from my IR and MCC; so I went for it. It worked well - as obviously your choice did for you.

As for my fixed base sims, well there wasn´t too many engine failures during these. I counted only one real event, a flame out resulting in the use of the QRH for an engine failure/shutdown. All the heavy s.e. work is done during full flight when you get a cut at V1 or between V1 and V2. Motion is obviously necessary here, especially during LVPs. However, of course you can control the a/c without motion after being trained to do so. No different than when you did it in the FMPT2 for the IR. However without some degree of training prior to a sim assessment in a new aircraft type, I felt the motion benefited my requirements. But as someone said, its ´horses for courses.'

I don´t want this to turn into a ´motion vs non motion´ debate in the same way we have the ´Am I too old debate´and the ´Integrated vs Modular´ debate. Obviously, if you are over 40 you are too old and Integrated courses are a rip off!!!!!! :p

[Doors to Automatic]

What would happen if someone could provide a similar product as Flightdeck tech but with full motion, the 3 axis motion platform only costs a few thousand dollars.......:-)

We are looking into this for a new simulator we are currently building - a good motion platform rated to about 2 tonnes costs around £40,000 so it is certainly not out of the question.

[General Mitrokhin]

A lease is a legal document, but can be an oral arrangement, which confers a right on one person (called a tenant or lessee) to possess property belonging to another person (called a landlord or lessor) to the exclusion of the owner landlord.

That may or may not be the arrangement that the operators of the simulators (such as Alteon) might have with the manufacturers (such as Thales) but it is certainly not the relationship that VA will have with the actual operators of the simulators.

[Kempus]

Can I just add also it depends on the a/c the assessment is on. If its on the airbus I'd recommend going for the "real" sim! Its a completely different kettle of fish!

I had an assessment in the 737, had practice with OAT's 737 type sim.

Also had an assessment on the Airbus 2 days later, done practice on the "real" thing with VA the day before!

Got offered both jobs! horses for courses! Just dont go into that first sim check without any practice! You've prob spent a fortune by this point, dont ruin it by being too tight! (and that from a Scotsman as well!)

Best of luck!

kempus