No foreign co-pilots from June 1 [Archive]

ghora86286

31st May 2008, 10:44

NEW DELHI: From June 1, India's commercial aircraft will not have foreign co-pilots on board. This will open fresh opportunities for thousands of aspiring pilots in the airline industry, said a government official.

The development comes in the wake of the government's decision that Indian airlines should have only Indian co-pilots from June 1. The carriers are also required to discontinue the services of senior foreign pilots, designated as commanders, by July 2010, the official said.

According to official sources, leading private airline Jet Airways received over 900 applications for the 10 posts it had advertised for hiring co-pilots.

According to Kanu Gohain, chief of the Directorate General of Civil Aviation, a total of 1,490 foreign pilots were given licences last year to work for the Indian civil aviation sector.

"Despite having a valid commercial pilot licence (CPL), many of the aspiring young Indian pilots have not been able to get through any Indian air carriers," an airline official told IANS.

Initially, when India did not have an adequate number of well-trained pilots, the carriers hired foreign pilots and co-pilots. However, according to industry sources, now there are many trained Indian pilots waiting in the wings.

The Indian pilots employed with airlines also complain that their promotion avenues suffer as airlines hire many foreign senior pilots.

But now, the airline industry is feeling the pinch. It has to pay a hefty salary to these foreign pilots.

"We have a contractual agreement with these foreign pilots and so they cannot be asked to leave," a senior DGCA official said.

"We are quite happy that the foreign pilots will soon be replaced by Indian pilots," he added.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/News/News_By_Industry/Transportation/No_foreign_co-pilots_from_June_1/articleshow/3087955.cms

Man this is good news. What is your opinion now people about us aspiring pilots. I bet our odds have increased tremendously.:E

scubawasp

31st May 2008, 11:16

I think you are going to be a tad disappointed!!

MayFly135s

31st May 2008, 11:41

It appears that the Economic Times and a 'government official' don't have their facts straight. While I have not seen the official legislation from the DGCA, I assure you that many an expat co-pilot will still be flying with Indian carriers after 1 June (FATAs have just been extended under the 4 year/2010 extension).

As an outsider looking in, the problem appears to be a lack of planning and antiquated training systems that don't deal with the modern aircraft boom in India. The result is aircraft arrive, the crew shortage gets deeper, and FOs don't get to progress into other fleets or get command opportunities thus stagnating the whole process.

I understand that there are plenty of qualified ab-initio candidates, but as of today there is no one trained and ready to take my seat. Once that happens I will happily say "Khuda Hafiz" or "Chalte Hain" take my experience and move on. It's just a part of the life of a contract pilot.

To the young Indian pilots good luck. Relax and things will work out in due course, most of you still have 45 years of productive life as a professional pilot...

MayFly

SOPS

31st May 2008, 13:02

I bet it will be a big big mess

weido_salt

31st May 2008, 13:52

Well someone had better inform this outfit that is still advertising for F/O's.

See here. (http://www.flightglobal.com/jobs/job/first-officers-india-flight-crew--200008471.htm)

fatbus

31st May 2008, 14:09

Hopefully not a big mess in the ground. As much as the young pilots with CPL's think there are ready, for the most part they are not. But good luck and hope all works out IE no CFIT's

PS; No standby travel for me on indian domestic

powerstall

31st May 2008, 14:12

hmmm... even their own flag carrier disagrees or openly opposes the ruling set down by the DGCA regarding hiring of expat F/O's. Nice! :ok:

casper63

31st May 2008, 14:14

Ghora you know it is old news why rake up the whole issue again. DGCA has already extended the deadline. Just tough luck!!

jumpdrive

31st May 2008, 17:18

pure indian style @ its BEST

black, no no, white,,
up.....no no no lets go down
left?.........no no right ?....or is it write ?, whatever
test........humm.......lets bribe instead!!!

will never ever change.........

:D

bad_attitude

31st May 2008, 17:27

:ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok:

fullforward

31st May 2008, 18:27

Let's fill all 777, A330/340 left seats with 2,000 hrs machos, along with 300 hrs f/os, a la Korean Air in the early 80's, and watch CNN headlines on smoking debris and human remains.
Who's going to pay the bill?

Glorified Donkey

31st May 2008, 19:02

While im glad india is trying to give jobs to its own people, give it to experienced people.

bad_attitude

1st Jun 2008, 06:42

... if only the GA market were healthy in India, people would have been able to build up experience ...

Mr Lover

1st Jun 2008, 09:24

This is a very sad news for all foreign pilots who wanted to have a chance to work in that country...

Only wish that any pilots can fly wherever they want... no border, no lisence restrictions, no races or religions... just experience.

I still beleive that young pilots have to build experience (+ or - 4000 hours) on charter plane or bush flying... and get the the ATPL before having a jet in their hands, maybe that will increase safety.

fly safe.

bad_attitude

1st Jun 2008, 09:49

"Only wish that any pilots can fly wherever they want... no border, no lisence restrictions, no races or religions... just experience."

Well the DGCA does not discriminate, it hates all pilots equally ... ask any Indian with a foreign license whose trying to convert / converted his/her license to an Indian one ...

shuchim

1st Jun 2008, 11:28

bye bye firangio

weido_salt

1st Jun 2008, 12:13

"... if only the GA market were healthy in India"

Totally agree with you. I think it is a great shame that GA, recreational aviation and you name it, has been stifiled by bureaucracy somewhere along the line. Air experience is the word and the more widely varied, the better the experience.

It is a magnificent country which lends itself to all sorts of opportunities and possibilities.

A lot of people point the finger at the US but remember, one is relatively free to do their own thing here, as far as aviation goes. You cannot blame people for trying to defend that freedom, can you? Land of the free........

"Well the DGCA does not discriminate, it hates all pilots equally ... "

I don't think there is one pilot among the lot of them, is there?

Reminds me years ago, when I worked for an "operator" who said these words "you pilots are burning too much fuel, so I am not going to buy anymore.":}

Glorified Donkey

1st Jun 2008, 15:21

Its definetly too bad that GA is not very big in a country the size of India. I was looking at some bizjet jobs and their requirements were even higher than the airlines. Now flying corporate myself I know that the two are very different types of flying and one is not a stepping stone to the other but common! What these guys are asking for they will not get once they kick out all the foreigners.

rcl7700

1st Jun 2008, 15:25

Sounds more like pride than reason. When I was a CFI in California I had the chance to instruct one indian student. I was surprised to find out he didn't need an Instrument Rating, just something like 20 hrs hood time and some time in the Elite sim. He didn't need a Comm Multi, just 15 hours in a Seneca. The only formal courses he did was PPL and CPL SE w/o instrument, the rest was just stuff that had to be logged, not really learned and tested. Since their business was (and is) very valued in flight schools, there were no questions asked, we just focused on the 2 check rides and tried to cover as much as we could when meeting the other non-license requirements. He went from 0 time to A320 FO in 4-5 months, but he was hoping for a bigger jet.

I felt reassured knowing he would probably be flying with a 10,000 + hour captain teaching him what he didn't learn in his 4 month career as a pilot. Sounds like that could change.

It seems logical that they want to employ their own people, more so when the expat salaries are high, but it seems kind of abrupt, maybe not very well thought out. Lets hope it doesn't come back and bite them in the ass. What about insurance? Aren't there still strict hour minimums to act as PIC of one of these jets?

rcl

Glorified Donkey

1st Jun 2008, 15:42

I remember my 5 months of instructing. Very busy training indian students. For the most part, very nice and very excited to be flying. But when you got into deeper conversation with them about their career ambitions they had a sense of entitlement. Talking about how when they got back they will be flying an ATR or Airbus. Their english was poor and they flying skills were nothing to be excited about. I was scared for those 5 months although it really put me on my toes.
Eventually I couldnt take it and told one of my students that if he keeps landing like that he wont ever see an airbus. I left very soon as the stress was not worth the pay.

The biggest mistake is the brainwashing and hype that these airlines and media and government put out there. There is alot of pride in their country getting come publicity, and I do wish them the best. But do things right. 2000hr captains on a CRJ, comeon! Train them right, let them focus on what they are doing too many are distracted with the big shiny jet they will be coming home too... or so they think.

Nothing will ever replace experience

Glorified Donkey

1st Jun 2008, 16:13

but they dont know that they are doing more harm than good. You will be seeing many unemployed frustrated young pilots, whose parents have invested probably their life savings or put themselves into extreme debt to get their son or daughter through the training. And on top of that you have a 200 hour wonder that has probably never in their training flown an approach in actual IMC, much less in a jet other than maybe a sim. It will be confusion. Lose the communication, lose the situational awareness and its over...

Pride and Complacency is how pilots kill themselves

rcl7700

1st Jun 2008, 17:24

Hi. I don't think experience (at the FO level) is that critical if the pilots go through good initial training, TR, and IOE. I have seen 300 hr FOs flourish in the right seat. What I was concerned with was the way my student started looking at the syllabus like a menu. Since he didn't need to get his instrument rating or his comm multi, he always asked if he really needed to know things when he had a hard time understanding them.

Demand is demand, and if the airlines and their DGAC is ok with students not obtaining licenses that are generally required, that is their problem. However it seems wrong to throw out the IRA and COMM Multi/Inst out the window to reduce training time and cost, especially when he will be flying multi-engine planes under IFR for a living. This fueled his attitude, and like GDonkey said, all I heard was that he only needed to log time and pass his 2 rides. He even suggested I add entries into his logbook with extra time to help him out. He didn't really want to learn things, he would be in an A320 or B777 when he got back regardless. It was as if his initial flight training was just a formality, just some ink in the logbook, before his airline career began. It made teaching very difficult.

It is their country and their sky. They can chose to do whatever they want. Lets hope it works out for them. I only see insurance companies and manufacturers in a position to require more hours in the left seat.

This is my experience with one guy only, I mean no disrespect or intend to generalize at all.

rcl

littlejet

1st Jun 2008, 19:10

I have already witnessed the same decision 6 years ago in one big African country. It lasted less than two years and the result was that the Airlines tried to call the foreigners back...I will not elaborate the reasons...
Almost every pilot training facility in US offers J1 Visas and instructor flying or some sort of time building, but the young frozen ATP holders do not want to fly their way up like pilots did in the past.
Instead they are looking at their profession as an investment with high gain probability and that is where the problem exists, and not just in India
It is possible to impose such rule since only the privileged ones can afford such investment, meaning they have access to government decision making process.
Imagine Google, Microsoft or Mayo Clinic decides to close the doors to skilled foreign IT or Medical experts and starts employing only young inexperienced US citizens...
May I add that the largest number of H1 visa apps come from Indian continent.
The most successful Airlines in the World are multinational.

rcl7700

1st Jun 2008, 19:22

Funny there is another topic being discussed in the same forum about flight schools in India. I don't think it is a bad idea for them to allow only locals to be FO's, however this requires a phase out plan that is well thought out. From the flight schools in India post, it seems like there are enough young pilots ready to take those positions while having experienced captains in the left seat guiding them.

I don't think China or India are thinking about having foreigners with big salaries flying their airplanes forever. They want them there to teach the locals until they have enough local pilots with the right experience and ability. They even want to build their own planes not to depend on Boeing and Airbus, I don't think the plan is to need foreigners.

I guess I don't see what is wrong with protecting your own, as long as the changes are fair and give enough time for the affected people to find other jobs.

rcl

fullforward

1st Jun 2008, 19:46

It was chilling to read your comments on "instructing" indian pilots.
Now I'm more that sure it's just a matter of time to see, like I said here before, more headlines on smoking debris and corpses.
Your comments on experience level versus quality of training for f/os and the logic to employ their owns make sense, but you'd have to take a deeper look on indian training/standards and modus operandi...

Looks like the history will repeat itself, nobody seems to learn from past experience, like what happened with KAL in the early 80's, with an yearly hull loss, claiming hundreds of lifes. 3,000 Hrs total time wide body captains, poor backgrounds and training quality, what a joke!!

Who's going to pay the bill? DGCA?

Let's hope insurance companies at least keep their eyes wide open on whats going on.

Glorified Donkey

1st Jun 2008, 21:43

As far as the pride goes, there is no reason that all pilots in India shouldn't be locals. I think that would be great! But get rid of the double standards, the propaganda, stop telling these people what they could be and start training them properly. Strict regulations. You make it through, you proceed to next level. Some people are just not cut out to fly, thats the sad reality. But from the sounds of it is, if you can get your PPL, you're in.

I think it would be a great idea for India to start a cargo market both locally and to other asian and middle eastern countries. Have the low timers fly these aircrafts, then move up to second officers on the long hauls so they can watch the experienced guys do the job. Then move their way into domestic FO. Proper training and instilling the importance of proper flying skills, CRM, SOPs and safety regulations will make them take the job alot more seriously and will look at it as a responsibility not only an investment. It can be done, but it has to be done PROPERLY, and I dont think the people at the top can make the right decisions to do it.

But put a 2000hr CRJ captain with a 300hr FO flying multiple legs between Mumbai, Delhi, hyderabad and other high density air routes is like watching the road traffic in india, you'll be thinking ok, someone these days is gonna get it.

bad_attitude

2nd Jun 2008, 03:08

i think things are being blown slightly out of proportion ...

the requirements of the DGCA to convert a foreign licence to an indian one state that the applicant must have 200 TT, 100 PIC, 50 XC and so on .... If you require a multi rating, then you have to have 15 hours in an a/c registererd in india and 10 hours on an approved sim ... etc etc etc these are the requirements you need to "convert" the license to an Indian one.

Not to get a job.

Airlines have their own set of requirements, the basics of which are a Commercial Multi IR ... though students due to financial constraints and lack of fore sight might end up just sticking to a SE CPL. And won't land a job.

airlines are sending their students to places CAE Dubai, Tolouse etc. If a person doesn't cut it there, he gets the boot.

Checks and filters have been put in place. And they do the job to some.

rcl7700

2nd Jun 2008, 13:49

I have no clue what the procedure or requirements are to convert a license or get a job in India, this was just my experience (first hand experience) with one guy. Unfortunately I have not exaggerated at all, all I have written is true. It didn't seem like converting was much of an issue, he told me it was about paying enough (in terms of bribes), and knowing the right people to get the paperwork through. As for flight time, if he asked me to forge entries in his logbook, I don't think he would've had a hard time doing that himself before showing up at DGAC. I have nothing against the country or its people, this was just my experience with one very problematic individual, with issues that appear to come from this sense of entitlement, and pride, which go back to the title of this topic.

Unfortunately I have also seen people come back with a fresh TR from these kinds of training centers only to spend months and months with training captains. Training facilities are businesses. Many times they only prep pilots to get them out the door ASAP. In times of high demand, everybody goes with the flow, and not just with indian airlines.

Once again this was just my experience with ONE guy. I am not trying to generalize or offend. I apologize for posting the deeds of one bad apple in what could appear to be a generalization or an anti-India campaign. PM me for further discussion.

rcl

kk pilot

3rd Jun 2008, 04:29

What if the US views this as protectionism and retaliates with H1b visa restrictions? There are several US retired Captains (DAL, UAL, CAL, AA) currently flying for Jet Airways - and Kingfisher will need experienced international Captains in their expansion plans. The experience level those US pilots bring to the table is far, far more than the current or future (2010) Indian aviation scene could ever hope to produce. It is afterall, a two way street.....

bad_attitude

3rd Jun 2008, 05:12

if the airlines need the exapts, they are gonna keep them whether or not the DGCA passes it's stupid memorandum's.

fullforward

3rd Jun 2008, 08:47

"What if the US views this as protectionism and retaliates with H1b visa restrictions? There are several US retired Captains (DAL, UAL, CAL, AA) currently flying for Jet Airways - and Kingfisher will need experienced international Captains in their expansion plans. The experience level those US pilots bring to the table is far, far more than the current or future (2010) Indian aviation scene could ever hope to produce. It is afterall, a two way street....."

I heard from an insider that this is a very concrete possibility. US may even cancel some programs allowing poor indian families to immigrate to US.

fullforward

3rd Jun 2008, 08:58

I simpatize with your elegant way of doing things.
However, I may assure you that this IS THE RULE. As there are no general aviation in India, youngsters arrive at the airlines with a lot less REAL experience than their logbooks suggests. So you have a potentially dangerous environment. Fortunately, the influx of highly experienced expat captains have been avoiding the worse.
Now, DGCA intend to reinvent the wheel and push a career progression that takes at least 10 years in 3!!

getsetgo

3rd Jun 2008, 09:11

kk pilot

if usa puts visa ristrictions then lot of ambassy staff will not be required.
many will loose jobs and will be forced to work at low salaries.
find some better solution.

vinayak

4th Jun 2008, 03:12

Mr Lover, i agree with you!
bad_attitude..... described dgca in the least words u can :ok:

TopTup

7th Jun 2008, 08:41

So, kick out experienced pilots to fuel the false nationalisitic pride, eh? The truth is these guys fly all over the world, yet still believe they come back to the "world's best city"....."we have the best training...the best aircraft...."

An "experienced" FO in India is one who knows when to switch off the RECIRC FANS whilst the Cmdr has a smoke.

Have sat in on check rides, both sim and aircraft with "experienced" Indian FO's who couldn't fly straight and level on downwind with the FD's off, let alone continue an un-assisted approach and landing. Of course they passed the check ride given by the same bloke who cooked his hours to get TRE status. (Do some research before you try to argue against that fact).

Not saying the good guys aren't there, but EXTREMELY few and far between. So, kick out your experince with self satisfying abundance, as the infamous "Jet Orienatation Program" is "THE BEST" training in the world!!! So I was repeatedly told.... Any Cmdrs out there? I dare you to switch the A/P off as well as the FD's and ask your FO to intercept finals and fly a visual approach. I wouldn't / couldn't.

Pilots all over the world fly for 1000's of hours on pistons, turbo props, etc OR get DECENT, SOLID & SUBJECTIVE training to fill the right seat of a "heavy". Again, not saying it can't be done as many airlines have proven it can - but these ones certainly haven't.

Bitter and twisted? NO WAY. I just left because I have this thing about living. Could the FO land it in a 20 kt x-wind in monsoonal weather if I had a heart attack? No. And that's why I left. I wish I was there when there were guys coming to the seat with a sound back ground through experience, knowledge and skill.

Grade / hire pilots on skill and aptitude, not on the country's name on the passport.:=

casper63

7th Jun 2008, 10:49

Top Gun (I mean TopTup)you contradict yourself. You conclude by saying

"Grade / hire pilots on skill and aptitude, not on the country's name on the passport"

and start by saying

"....with "experienced" Indian FO's who couldn't fly straight and level on downwind with the FD's off, let alone continue an un-assisted approach and landing".

Make up your mind please before you start bad mouthing others. Are you a TRI/TRE? If not please refrain from passing judgment on other pilots whatever may be the country's name on their passport:) . Or else somebody would turn around and say "Good riddance to bad rubbish"

Cheers have a drink mate.

bad_attitude

7th Jun 2008, 16:07

i wonder why we have parallel threads running ... anyways, to add to the above post a lil X-reference ...

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=4163116&postcount=11

powerstall

7th Jun 2008, 16:35

oh well, the saga continues... again, again, and again..... :ugh:

TopTup

8th Jun 2008, 02:36

Yes, I am a TRI.

I left because I had to weigh up personal integrity to do my job as well as the safety in the environment I initially applied to join. It was my choice to join, it was my choice to leave.

I used the term "experienced" as such, ie inverted commas, because as far as the airline was concerned, they were regarded as such at the time I observed what I commented on in my previous post.

Have re-read my post and do not see where I contradicted myself. Coming from an English speaking country I had to go to the DGCA to prove my capability of speaking my mother tongue. Too bad there isn't a literacy test as such for ALL......

"good riddance to bad rubbish" ??? Well that is exactly what I did!

Now, you go and look yourself in the mirror after your next flight and tell yourself that it is OK to smoke in the cockpit, to be out of uniform at work (in cruise, etc), speak / treat the cabin crew as is done, have random people / pax in the cockpit, keep the cokpit door unlocked, have more people than is allocated seating positions for in the cockpit for take off, landing, or any other phase of flight..... Just read your SOPs and be honest with yourself as to if they are followed, that's all.

If the FAA found out what went on, what you think they would do? Now, if Star Alliance found out, what would they do as well to your national carrier's application - "invitation"?

So, back to the topic..... Kick out the foreigners to allow this culture to thrive!!!!! Could you imagine the outrage if India welcomed experince and standards? Yes, there are national guys up there with some of the best I've seen (both Cmdr and FO). But why not resource the best that is available, be they national or foreign?

Drive away a 10,000 hr Foreign FO expereinced on the type needed (random example) to replace with a 250 hr CPL National. Yeah, that makes sense. With your parents, wife, kids, grandparents on board, who would you rather up at the pointy end?

Vimd23

8th Jun 2008, 05:58

Toptup , sorry to note that your experience with our flag carrier has left you which such a bitter taste, how ever I think your missing the BIG picture mate.

Just to enlighten those of you who are not aware , its not 10,000 hour weathered, experienced or compitent EXPAT first officers that India's airlines are employing .Its the 500 hours P- 68 C endorsed expat , willing to pay 8000 Euro's which is one half of his Type rating in USA ( the other half being put in by the company ) and also willing to sign a 3 year bond with the company worth another 5000 Euro's who are taking the place of the Indian nationals. Having said that I do not think that there is any significant difference between a Indian national with 300 hours and an Australian CPL ( waiting to convert to an Indian CPL )and a Finish bloke with 500 hrs and a JAA license in terms of professional skills. I for one just completed my check with a finish national with a similar experience level who for no apparent reason had been delayed by the company paper work for over 9 months after completion of his endorsement for a sim check( the guy was as good or bad as an indian would have been at that level of experience). I think its sucks big time and the whole aviation industry in India requires a REGULATORY body with no attachement towards the ministry.

I do not think like you said above that we are trying to resource the best first officer's if you consider someone with 10,000 hours of P2 time ( one would resonably expect that command come's a fair deal earlier considering the example you stated ) , would tell you something about the persons mental make up and his/her inablility to take responsibility !!! In short we are not getting the experienced F/o's that you mention for the simple fact that someone with the kind of " EXPERIENCE " would be aiming for his command not another job on the right seat. India is at the moment going through too much change too quickly, the DGCA is worsening the situation by revoking the new CAR for FDTL and invoking the older one prepared in 1992 !!! How crazy is that !!!

Anyways , hope this industry mature's quickly for everyone's sake.

Just my 2 paise worth.

cheers
vimd 23

TopTup

8th Jun 2008, 23:47

The lowest houred pilot recruited by Rishwoth into AI, that I knew of, had 2500 hrs. My example of 10,000 hrs for an FO typically includes the liklihood of this person working his / her way up the food chain from the piston turboprop days where potentially there will be some 4000 - 6000 hrs of COMMAND time. Again, it was just a random figure I threw out there. Let's say for arguement's sake a personal with 4000 hrs: 2500 hrs in command of multi crew turboprops & light twins + 1500 hrs FO time on similar. This person is recruited by RAL, pays the $$$ or Euros for the endorsement and goes to AI. I do not think you can compare this pilot to any person straight out of flying school.

It is not uncommon for FO's to have over 10,000 hrs from countries as you have mentioned before getting a look at a left hand seat (QF, ANZ, UA, CX, SIN, EK, KA.......)

"IF" national airlines are recruiting foreign pilots into positions whereby nationals have the same standards and experience then it is definitely wrong to do so. I was unaware of this happening.

The crux of the matter is that, again, employ the best candidate for the job. Yes, always employ nationals when able, but do not be blinded by nationalistic pride and see the bigger picture.

Am still perplexed by casper 63's comment of, "just relax and have a beer". It's that exact attitude to the blatant ignorance of SOPs and standards (as mentioned in previous posts) that allows this culture at Indian carriers to thrive......

Accident report (example): "The aircraft stalled in poor weather while the crew apparently were manoeuvering for final approach. On investigation 6 bodies were identified in the cockpit section in civilian clothes. 2 bodies have been identified as being the operating crew. 2 uniforms were also uncovered in a storage area. Cigarette butts were also in abundance in the cockpit area. The FO had 15 hrs experience on type (315 hrs TT). The Commander had 1200 hrs TT on type. Last recorded words on the CVR after a person questioning the manoeuver was told to "just relax and have a beer".

That's me signing off on this topic. I hit my head against a brick wall when I was there and will do so here.

Vimd23

9th Jun 2008, 03:20

Well , I do agree , that expats ( of the experience levels you have mentioned , 2500 hrs on multi turbo props / command ) have better professional skills than those straight out of flying school. I did my initial in Australia and you are right about the min experience levels before getting to command, however at the same time , some newly released capts I have flown with who have garnerd all their 4000 hrs of P2 time on the 737 or 320 I think have at the minimum the equal level of skills and maturity as do those who have 10,000 hrs P2 which includes GA / charter. In India , we unfortunately do not have a GA / Charter scene where one can get sobered in prior to coming into an airline.

I speak of Jet airways with the example I quoted in the previous post as hiring expats over nationals with similar experience levels , I was not aware AI was hiring experienced ( in terms of total flying experience ) people on their fleet. To put things into perspective , SQ has a cadet program where you go from zero to 747 p2 ( with a Jet orientation course on the learjet at minimum time ) and they have been using the system well enough to man their fleet without any cause for complain for a few years now. Case in point , its not all about the experience but also about the quality of the training imparted and the person's mental make up.

Nice to hear your frank views on the topic , I believe we have had a healthy discussion on the matter.

cheers
vimd 23 :E

TopTup

9th Jun 2008, 04:01

:ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok:

casper63

9th Jun 2008, 05:23

Top Tup
Before you and I sign off from this post let me clarify my stand too.

Firstly you stated that one should not look at a person's passport before hiring him, presumably because his flying abilities has nothing to do with his place of birth. On the other hand with one irresponsible statement you have criticized a whole lot of competent pilots by saying that "Indian" FOs cannot fly straight and level. Sir here I beg to differ, you may be a hotshot TRI but let me tell you that there are a lot of Indian FOs who can fly better than YOU so please don't derate a whole bunch of good professional pilots, whom I have flown with for the last 25 years without any incident or accident. You are quoting a case of one accident in India, I can quote a similar if not worse cases all over the world, including your place of birth.

Secondly, when I said relax have a drink, I meant to help you in cooling down your nerves. It had nothing to do with my attitude towards my profession.

Lastly, it is good that you quit your job. If you don't like something and it is beyond your power to change, then instead of banging your head just leave gracefully without cursing the whole world.:)

Anyway all the best I hope you are enjoying your new job. Don't worry about your previous airline you won't be missed.

Al Fakhem

9th Jun 2008, 05:36

Interesting to read some views expressed on this site, such as "every country has the right to nationalize" - presumably submitted by a contributor from the subcontinent. The meaning is clearly that foreigners are ok as long as they are needed, and that we should accept this as a universal concept.

Compare this kind of talk with that of Indian doctors in the UK, when that country wishes to organize its health system its own way, affecting a number of Indian physicians. Then we get all the hype from our subcontinental friends about how unfair it is to change rules to the detriment of Indian doctors, etc. etc.

Can any of our Indian forum members explain?

Left Wing

9th Jun 2008, 12:03

if indian airlines get their act right by 2010 there will be no need for expat Capts / FO's... small number of TRE/TRI's may be need to fill the gaps... SIA has proved it they dont need to rely on expats to run a highly sucessful airline...and launch a new airplane...

555orange

9th Jun 2008, 12:09

In Asian operations, I think its important to have some diverse cultural experience in ones operation. If you leave an operation to the heiarchy and with respect "authoritarian" culture of asia, an airline cannot be run properly. The "absolute" authority of Asian culture is a dangerous thing in an airline.

I also have to ask... if Indian carriers shut out foriegners, why should my country welcome Indians to come and live and work in my country? I assure you there is more coming here than there are going there. I had thought we had become more civilised than this. It seems we have been sharing our pie for years, but now that there is a chance for me to visit India.... its a no go. How come?

Glorified Donkey

9th Jun 2008, 12:23

But thats how it is. They wont let you work in their country but they flood the immigration lines in your country. Personally I think its a fair trade off. Remove all expats from India, and all Indian expats from everywhere else. If they want to play like that, then everyone should just return to their own country.

Left Wing

9th Jun 2008, 12:51

Why is it that EU airlines advertise "right to live an work in EU"; why is that not an open job for intl' pilots.... so dont make it about India...

our European client for A320 FO’s also for a 5-month contract based in the UK. Posted Date: 06 June 2008 16:40:59

Excellent salary/package
Accommodation provided
Transportation provided
UK Base
Start Date: ASAP until end of October

All candidates must meet the below requirements:

A minimum of 1500 hours total flying time
A minimum of 300 hours PIC on type

Candidates must hold a current and valid JAA ATPL
A current A320 type rating
Hold a valid medical certificate issued by a JAA member state.
Must hold a valid EU Passport
No history of accidents or incidents

casper63

9th Jun 2008, 13:58

It is a question of supply and demand and is applicable to all countries, so lets not bitch and bite. If enough locals are available to do a particular job, the govts will not permit the expats. Like doctors in UK, when there was demand to fill up NHS vacancies, all and sundry were permitted to work in UK. Now there are enough locals available, outsiders are not welcome. Same issue is with pilots in India. Europe has enough pilots, so only EU passport holders with JAR licence are permitted, when India has enough pilots only Indian passport holders with DGCA licence would be permitted, so what is the whole aguement all about?

powerstall

9th Jun 2008, 15:00

SIA has proved it they dont need to rely on expats to run a highly sucessful airline...and launch a new airplane... Today 13:36

uhm... singapore is singapore, in a league way way way above india, nowhere near in comparison...
and ohh by the way they are currenty hiring expats again...:=

TopTup

12th Jun 2008, 02:20

Casper63....

Is smoking in the cockpit an incident? In the rest of the world's airlines that I am aware of it certainly is. In ANY other airline I know of ANYONE caught smoking on the flightdeck would be instantly dismissed. You are therefore negligent in your duties if you do it or allow others to.

Re-read my posts. I have drawn examples from specific situations I have witnessed, not ALL of any nationality. I have also stated that I have been honoured to fly with some of the best Cmdrs and FOs while in India - be they foreign or national. I am typing this slow so you get it.

I have not once mentioned anything to do with my flying capability. You have bought that into it. Like anyone else I have good days and bad days but am comfortable to know that I (now) have any FO who is rostered to fly with me to support me as I do him. It is called CRM in a multi crew aircraft. "If" being able to fly straight and level with the AP off and F/D's off makes me a "Top Gun" then that only demonstrates YOUR standards. (I can even climb/descend at a constant rate too!!!! WOW!!!!)

25 years experience, huh? Have you ever smoked or allowed others to smoke on the cockpit? Kept the cockpit door unlocked in flight? Allowed passengers or others not approved into the cockpit? Have you ever read the 9/11 report(s) and even compehend the potential consequences of this? Do you or allow others to operate out of uniform (in tracksuit pants, t-shirt and with/without footwear)? Do you allow more people in the cockpit than are seats available during ANY phase of flight?

Such matters were out of my powers to change: namely due to the severe imbedded culture that people like you have fertilised. I raised the issues; I reported incidents and was treated with contempt for trying to implement the rules and regulations that, by definition was my job to do so.

I am not cursing "the world", just that part of the world where incompetance, mismanagement, corruption and self deluded ignorance that all of what I have written and borne witness to does not exist. Therefore, of course I am not missed, you fool!

I sincerely hope you are a lucky pilot, because professionalism doesn't seem to be too abundant.

That is it. I won't reply to anything else. Go and wallow in your self glorified standards..... Enjoy your cigarette on your next flight. But remember, the rest of the world is laughing at your pathetic existance to call yourself a "professional pilot". How's your conscience if you have allowed ANY of the above occur?

av8r76

12th Jun 2008, 05:49

The article states that only P2's are out the door. India will need captains for a long time. As sad it is to see guys who have spent money on TR's to get a break here, the nation has to take care of it's citizens first. You can't fault any state to that intent.

India has been employing 200 hr wonders for decades and that's how it is being done today as well. It is the way of the land due to a dearth of a non airline industry. GA/corp is picking up but will not match the growth of the airlines for now.

You cannot compare the requirements for airline jobs to that of the western world because of the lack of maturity of Indian aviation. In another 10-15 years we can be rest assured that the experience level and entry requirements will match those of many major carriers of the world.

We are all 'waiting' for smoking debris and charred bodies to vindicate our position on this new ruling. It hasn't happened yet at the alarming rate envisioned by all despite the fact that 200 hr co-joes have been occupying the RHS for decades now and I certainly hope it's not gonna happen ever.

What Toptup says is true and prevalent in India and anyone saying otherwise is blowing hot air. I am sorry you had to encounter what you did but we have plenty of expats who come here do their job and leave. I applaud you for you forthrightness and wish to have the same cajones as you but going against the tide in a deeply hierarchal society is futile (as you can testify to that) and counterproductive (as you can again, testify to that). We need more people like you in Indian aviation to raise the standards of professional and ethical conduct.

On the flip side coming here as a a TRI also meant you had to 'I'. I have asked captains if I can land in 20 kt x winds and helped my through the whole process. It was a captain who reached out and shut off my FD's and disengaged the AP and said 'show me what you can do'. We don't have the knowledge and experience, you do, so apply the 'I' in the TRI position you were hired for.

Dagar

15th Jun 2008, 00:20

Capt.Top Gun,Indian Pilots are very competent and we do have a pilot shortage but the ones that are experienced are top notch,and that is one of the reasons that the top rated airline in the world like Singapore Airlines loves to hire pilots from India.And if you have any friends in US air force who have conducted joint air exercises with Indian Air Force will let you know they got their a##es handed to them on a platter.

Dagar

15th Jun 2008, 00:31

av8r76 airlines like Singapore hire abinitios and put em in the right seat of 777s,340s,744s with barely 300-400 hrs of total experience and believe me they do a fine job,a lot of these guys are today flying as Capts.on these widebody a/cs.Now in US they follow a different model where a person slogs their behind @ 135 or flight schools finally making it to a regional and then when the poor dude makes it to a major or legacy then he is expected to spend haLF HIS LIFE or maybe more on the RHS and lets not forget the pathetic reserve line that he will get for the next 5-10 years.Just because airlines in rest of the world do not follow the American model does not make em unsafe and since you mentioned about smokin debris or smokin bodies,the whole world got to see that when the so called experienced pilots @ Comair took off from the wrong runway.

getsetgo

15th Jun 2008, 14:13

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getsetgo

15th Jun 2008, 14:15

Al fakham
your post

Interesting to read some views expressed on this site, such as "every country has the right to nationalize" - presumably submitted by a contributor from the subcontinent. The meaning is clearly that foreigners are ok as long as they are needed, and that we should accept this as a universal concept.

Compare this kind of talk with that of Indian doctors in the UK, when that country wishes to organize its health system its own way, affecting a number of Indian physicians. Then we get all the hype from our subcontinental friends about how unfair it is to change rules to the detriment of Indian doctors, etc. etc.

Can any of our Indian forum members explain?
******************************************

Interesting and good general knowledge you have about the world.
and try to read some threads at the bottom of this thread (similer threads)
these threads explain most of universal fects (or concepts)

what i understand about......UK and DOCTORS
Indian doctors in UK…… studied in UK universities
(Must have paid huge fees or they were good in profession and obtained the scholarships to study in UK universities)
Then they also passed the exams to practice in UK (really hard studies)
To work with UK health system and get employed …….they must have got work permit.
Or something like…………………. right to work may be UK passport/citizenship.
So basically they are UK citizens/ right to work ……as they pay TAX to UK government .
If you think it’s a universal concept tell me what India or this subcontinent should be doing before hiring foreigners?
And what can be done after hiring foreigners? Etc. etc……………

Al Fakhem

15th Jun 2008, 17:20

getsetgo:

I deduct from your limited English spelling capabilities that you must be from India and thus somewhat biased.

Anyway, my point is that whether it is Indian doctors in the UK or foreign pilots in India, they all have made some investment - monetary or otherwise. However, it appears that in the case of India wanting to get rid of foreign pilots, the argument is put forward that India should have the right to decide what is best for its industry/country, regardless of the personal investment or sacrifices of the individuals concerned.

I believe expat pilots in India pay tax in India. Or do you know otherwise?

But when it comes to the UK deciding to get rid of Indian doctors, the entire Indian media get into a frenzy and suggest it is entirely unfair for a country to decide what is best for it.

You´ve actually confirmed my point.

av8r76

15th Jun 2008, 20:06

The new UK rule suggests that an EU doctor will get preference over an Indian doc which if construed the wrong way implies racism.

In India's case the DGCA wants ALL expats out of here, irrespective of nationality. So a slight difference in both cases.

getsetgo

15th Jun 2008, 21:24

you mean to say patients from UK will travel to karachi to see heart surgeon Dr Hasnat Khan.
so more people will travel in to the subcontinent.
aviation in the subcontinent will get boost with airlines adding more luxury cabins to accomodate travellers .

casper63

17th Jun 2008, 11:33

Top Tub

Sorry couldn't resist. I have to bring you out in open. Before you call me a fool or curse my country men lets have your country of origin first. It is unfair cause I can't give shining examples from your place of origin or conduct of pilots from your neighbor hood. What you stated has happened/is happening all over the world, including smoking in the cockpit. For your information I neither smoke nor have ever tolerated or permitted such unprofessional behaviour in my cockpit. So please don't generalise. 9/11 took place in some other part of the world, where cockpit access was easier. That doesn't imply that American pilots were unprofessional. As far as you being a top gun is concerned you missed the pun, may be because of your swollen head or shattered ego. After reading your post I felt good that you no longer fly in this part of the sky. Just to repeat good riddance to bad rubbish, please for your own sake don't ever come to this part of the world or else your BP will go out of control. And if you have any more curses left please PM me, don't make a fool of yourself in this open forum.:=

malq

18th Jun 2008, 07:27

200 hours or 10000 hours. as a regular passenger on Indian domestic airlines, I need somebody who can understand "fly-during-monsoons" more than understand "fly-b-book" elsewhere in the world.

As for experience, I don't know, something has to be said about knowledge too. If older pilots were all that smart and indispensable to society, then why don't we have more 60-year old fighter pilots?

Tintin

18th Jun 2008, 08:11

Wow champion malq, champion. You understand airline flying...

Left Wing

18th Jun 2008, 09:16

malq, suggest you read up on aviation before posting your "views"

PPRUNE....the first P is PROFESSIONAL

getsetgo

18th Jun 2008, 15:12

MALq
For your information and general knowledge
These magnificent Air force fighter pilots fly one crew cockpit.
I can say 60 years young Air force pilots can fly 70+ years.
As they live a glorious life, so they live life.
Now don’t ask why sports stars finish their carrier when they are as young as between 30-40 year.
Nobody is indispensable to the society irrespective of age or profession.

casio man

19th Jun 2008, 10:18

Malq, Tintin: I hope the closest you guys ever come to the cockpit is the forward toilet of the plane, cuz you all are so full of s**t!

Malq, the worse pilot that you can have is not a 200 hr young pilot, nor a 20,000 hr old pilot, but one whose ego is to big to know that he/she has bitten off more then he/she can chew. Often, the best way to get THAT knowledge is by having experince and maturity (which does not necessarily equate to age!)

India, generally is an 'easy' place to fly, as long as you overlook the infrastructure shortcomings that is apparent everywhere in this country. But for 6-8 weeks during the monsoon, the weather conditions are pretty reasonable, compared to other SEA countires where you get heavy rain every other day.

This relatively easy flying breeds over confidence in the people who are involved in the industry, who think that planes will always be new and trouble free (hence cutting back on the engineering staff!), and the weather good most of the time.

What I fear is the believe in too many of the stakeholders (the pilots, regulators, company owners, politicians, joe public etc) of the magic of the "India Story". Yes, India's turn in the sun is here, but to think that things can change in a flash is pure folly.

Real growth, real progress will take a reasonable amount of planning and time. Only then you will get a consolidated growth that will last, not some bubble that is waiting to crash! I wish for the best for India, not for the IPL, Bollywood, IT egoheads, but for the poor people who still have to sleep on the streets with their thatched huts backed up to massive bungalows!

I have seen too many young pilots who think that sitting on the right seat of a shiny new jet and then upgrade to the left in the minimum time possible is their unassailable "right". To be fair, this observation is across a few airlines and not just in India.

But in the other instances, there were those, who had perhaps, shared the same view before, who now, with maturity can see the danger of that attraction. If India gets rid of too many experinced personnel, there is a high risk of losing this tacit knowledge.

Go back to the Ramayana and you will see many examples of where pride has been shown time and again as the reason for downfall.

teghjeet

19th Jun 2008, 13:07

whats your view on this

http://www.moneycontrol.com/india/news/press-release/kf-airliness-intl-plans-may-hit-severe-turbulence-/17/31/343215

fullforward

19th Jun 2008, 19:43

Here's an example on how DGCA is concerned about safety.
The experience level required is a little exaggerated, let's say a minimum of 1,000 hs jet time would be the rule to join a carrier on an A320 or 737, captain upgrade not before 4 years or 3,000 hr on the right seat and wide body capt upgrade after at least 4 years on narrow body.
This is generaly the common practice on most airlines and have been working right, giving time for maturity and building experience.
This is though for the beginners, as India doesn't have a GA significant enough for them to get pratice. But a career in aviation has NEVER, EVER been easy for nobody in the world.
For those looking for something easier, put your money on a good University, study hard and become a good doctor, engineer, lawyer etc.
Congrats on DGCA taking experience requirements seriously!

malq

24th Jun 2008, 12:45

About 3 decades ago, as seafarers from the developed world started losing their jobs to seafarers from South Asia, the same sort of argument was trotted out, that experience was the ultimate factor required.

Well, with technology moving fast, and a whole generation of seafarers from South Asia moving in rapidly, guess what happened? While old-timer Masters and Chief Engineers from the "developed countries" still went about pushing the virtues of experience while polishing their sextants and practising morse code and locking radars . . . a whole new generation came from South Asia and now operates the modern fleets of the world.

Something like that in aviation too. Seen too many "experienced" pilots in India from abroad, sneering at everything and choosing to only see the downside while not able to understand the quantum leaps taking place in technology right under their noses. While with South Asians, leap-frogging technologies came naturally, and so will competence.

As for poor people sleeping rough, certainly there are too many in India - but what is that a yardstick for?

getsetgo

25th Jun 2008, 10:06

AL fakham
YOUR POST_____
getsetgo:

I deduct from your limited English spelling capabilities that you must be from India and thus somewhat biased.

Anyway, my point is that whether it is Indian doctors in the UK or foreign pilots in India, they all have made some investment - monetary or otherwise. However, it appears that in the case of India wanting to get rid of foreign pilots, the argument is put forward that India should have the right to decide what is best for its industry/country, regardless of the personal investment or sacrifices of the individuals concerned.

I believe expat pilots in India pay tax in India. Or do you know otherwise?

But when it comes to the UK deciding to get rid of Indian doctors, the entire Indian media get into a frenzy and suggest it is entirely unfair for a country to decide what is best for it.

You´ve actually confirmed my point.
____________________________________________________________ ______________

EU countries are following the same procedures as India, only difference is India has the flexibility to accommodate foreigners, where as EU countries don’t have this flexibility.
Like any other country, India has the right to decide what is good for the country. (Appears and should have are not appropriate words)
I don’t think anybody should have doubts on this issue or to indulge in arguments.
You can amend (improve) your paragraph writing skills. Also try to search correct sense/meaning of word sacrifice from oxford dictionary.
Your post________________________________________
The meaning is clearly that foreigners are ok as long as they are needed, and that we should accept this as a universal concept.
____________________________________________________________ __
I don’t think that India wants to get rid of Expats but the industry pressure is playing tricky game. Universal concept of Demand & supply + country interests play the role in this scenario.

From your post I understand that foreign pilots are very good investors.
British company also invested in subcontinent (east India), carried all the wealth to UK. The fact is… no income tax was paid. These days’ Indian companies are investing in UK.
There is centuries old strong relationship between India and UK.
India is looking for foreign investments in the country. Everybody is investing in India, not only expat pilots.
Expat pilot taxation ………you should know better.
The fact is at the moment expat pilots get more than 20% net income to take home than Indian pilots. Otherwise to pay tax there are many ways. Including E-FILE on internet it’s easy.
I was briefing you about citizens of UK (Indian origin) and they pay tax also.
Tell me why in UK, professionals originally from this subcontinent are paid less then UK origin professionals?
And their promotions, upgrades ? even if they are qualified and more experienced?
In spite of the fact they are having right to work and tax payers to UK.
You can see EU does not give job to foreigners. Who is biased?
_____________________________________________________
your post
I deduct from your limited English spelling capabilities that you must be from India and thus somewhat biased._
............................................................ ............................................................ ...

Who is biased?
You are totally biased about the country which has given you opportunity to work.
From your numerous posts I gather that you tried to give bad picture to others just to save your own job(did not like anything in India but continued to stay till now)
............................................................ ............................................................ .......

English ..INDIA
The Fact is there are about 25 states in this country, each state within have few languages embedded within. Lots of curry in terms of use of language and people still manage to convey meaning effectively. When traveling just 100 km, come across different cultures, Lots of change language/eating/food/living/clothing etc.
To accommodate all, Microsoft India has made key boards and operating system platforms in many languages.
Fact is while traveling, don’t carry the weight of home computer but try to adapt to the keyboards, It’s hard, sometimes not easy to locate keyboard keys or translate. It needs patience and time.
I will employ one professional to type for me and it will create one more job.
You can provide same keyboards around, it will bring this world together (one world)
But the fact is
It will shut many production units around the world which were manufacturing various kinds of keyboards to suit regional requirements and many will go jobless.
Now I am using one of the latest international software programs, it has so many versions of English which one you prefer?
____________________________________________________________ ___________
your post
But when it comes to the UK deciding to get rid of Indian doctors, the entire Indian media get into a frenzy and suggest it is entirely unfair for a country to decide what is best for it.
__________________________________________________________
Media in India is FREE PRESS.
I don’t think any country decides its fate based on media.