View Full Version : Korean and Asiana - whats the big hang up?


Invaribly
26th Aug 2001, 23:38
Call me nieve ,but I find it hard to see how such a long established and national airline of a relativly wealthy country,not to mention with one of the most modern fleets in the industry "beats it's F/O during sim checks" (!!!)to quote one guy on this board.
Ok I am not a qualified pilot ,but are things really as bad as they appear to seem with Korean?
I have a really great idea - instead of insulting me in your replies and calling a f***ing fool tell me exactly WHAT IS WRONG WITH A TYPICAL KOREAN AIRLINES CAPTAIN.Give us all good details,instead of the meek threads that seem to have predominated this topic.Thats if anyone can of course.Describe situations to me and indeed the rest of us all,because I gather that 99% of what has been said about this airline has been from "a friend of a friend of a friend told me. . .etc".
As for Asiana:if it is worse than Korean than how come it has never had a major crash - EVER?Ok I will give you that things might not be good there , but they cant be that bad if they have a relativly clean record.Can they?Explain please!



411A
27th Aug 2001, 02:37
DAL did a safety audit and promptly cancelled the codeshare agreement....I personally know some of the DAL guys and the stories they relate would make your hair stand on end.
Korea is now Catagory 2 with good reason.
Travel on KE at your own risk.

Hand Solo
27th Aug 2001, 02:54
Click on Tech/Safety on the menu on the left then read the audit.

Al Weaver
27th Aug 2001, 03:54
411A

I don't fathom how your posts seem to paint only in black and white, with no pretense at a fair discussion. I grant you that Korean (as in KAL) has had past problems including a scathing audit by DAL. I had thought the purpose of such an audit was to encourage improvement and addressing of issues. Supposedly with time which has now past, improvement was expected. Now the safety issue has expanded into a new arena ,which is the amount and quality of expected oversight by a Government agency. I don't see why this should be a condemnation of a specific airline. The code 2 you mention is not a rating of either Asiana or Korean Airline's current capability or performance in a safety arena. It seems to be a rating of the current capability of the KCAB which is now being rapidly addressed.

You may use your freedom of choice to not fly any airline you choose, but lets be objective about assigning past tense to present and future tense when it comes to airline safety.

767driver
27th Aug 2001, 04:43
Invaribly,

Do a more complete search: Asiana, despite being a very young airline (a little more than 10 years old) demolished a 737 on a CFIT at the third approach try below minimums, killing a lot of people.
Not exactly a good safety record, though.
And, unfortunately, more accidents will come, unless they became really serious on fixing several things. It takes much more than new and fancy aircraft to make a true airline.

greybeard
27th Aug 2001, 04:54
Why pick on KAL per se?

Another "Local" Airline of "Very High Standing" tells it's new recruits "YOU ARE SCUM OF THE SCUM" and that is, or certainly was, in the official briefing documents used.

Verbal abuse is the order of the day, physical not yet eradicated totally and the statement "Any questions from you will indicate a lack of knowlege" still echoes in the system.

A newly promoted crew to a larger fleet was challanged to his new status by a "Supervisory" because he had delayed a flight by firing the bottles in a fire situation. The statement "You were supposed to be held back" was used.

Different cultures do things different ways we all agree, but the practice of good aviation is missed by some, I hope the younger ones amoung us have as much fun and joy in their flying as I have and am having, but it's getting harder all over not just in Asia.

Sui generus
:p

[ 27 August 2001: Message edited by: greybeard ]

[ 27 August 2001: Message edited by: greybeard ]

asiana pilot
27th Aug 2001, 06:59
What a dull life pilot you are...

I am a Asiana Pilot who like to tell you this.

Yes, Asiana had an accident in 1993 and that is the only serious accident we have.

Oh! I am sorry. We did have another serious
accident in Cheju Airport. Do you know who the Captain was?

The Captain's name is Fail ( Real Name from Canada ) who went to Canada and I heard that he is still flying in Canada.

He broke the airplane in two sections. And after landing, maintenance could see the inside of the aircraft from outside.

He landed nose gear first. Do you know why?
Because of strong wind, he added 1/2 of the head wind component. V ref + 32 knots

Oh..

I have another one to tell you.

There is one Western Captain ( I won't say his nationality) who came for a Sim Ride...

On RTO, the captin yelled at the FO because
the FO didn't raise the Reverser for Captain.
And the captain explained to the check airman that FO should raise the Reverser for the Captin and the captin also said that the Asiana Airlines should change the RTO procedures like his old Company. ( PNF should use the reverser... ha ha ha....)

In conclusion...

There are a few pilots who are not qualified,I mean bad pilots,in every airlines.

United, American, Delta, Air France, Lufftan,
Britsh Air, and etc...

I heard so many rumors that some of the above
mentioned airlines Captins made the most
stupid mistakes and accidents (EX: two B747 airplane collided on Canary Island)

I think those pilots who like to talk about
other pilots mistakes, are the one who has problems and they are the most dangerous pilots in the world.


One other thing...

FAA said that Korean Ministry of Transportation is so bad that FAA rated Korean Ministry of Transportain as CAT 2...

Do you know the real behind story?

The reason is Korean Goverment is negotiating
with France and Russia for the New Fighter Aircrafts instead of F16 from USA.

And USA is trying to teach a lesson to the small and weak contry like Korea...

-------------------------------------------
Can I add a rumor?

Do you know why TWA has so many New Boeing Aircrafts after an Aircraft explored in the air near Florida?

Yes, the answer is...... missile......

411A
27th Aug 2001, 07:19
Well then...what more can be said. :confused: :rolleyes:

tulips
27th Aug 2001, 08:09
Asiana pilot, I see you graduated with honours in the propaganda course.....

tulips
27th Aug 2001, 08:20
Or did the parked Aeroflot just jump out from behind a pole and attack the unsuspecting Asiana -400?.....

http://www.aviationpics.de/ramp/alaska1.jpg

It's not like they were THAT far apart during taxy..... Maybe looking out the front left window (that's where the captain sits, AP) would have helped!

http://www.aviationpics.de/ramp/alaska/oz-supic2.jpg

"Can happen to all of us, just seems to happen more to some of us!!"

asiana pilot
27th Aug 2001, 08:42
tulips...

You are trully right...

We had a accident in Anchorage..
Before I was talking about the accident that had human casualties.

Can I ask you what airline you are working for?

As far as I know, SIA was the only airline that didn't have any accident until last year. Even Quanta had an accident...

Now , let me ask you one more question.

Are you a line pilot or trying to be?

If you are a line pilot, I would like to know the name of your ailine.
So I can find out if your airline had any
accident or not...

And if your airline had a accidnet, I want to know if the accident was stupid accident or smart accident.

What I am trying to tell you here is ....

I am not saying that I am the best pilots and
I am not saying that all the Asiana and Korean Air pilots are the best skilled pilots.

All I am saying is every airlines have at least one accident and every airlines have a few real bad pilots.

767driver
27th Aug 2001, 09:52
Asiana Pilot,

Congratulations! Your first post was the funniest thing I have read, could not stop laughing for 5 minutes!...oh, boy.
Are you sure you are 47 pilot? If you are, Asiana problems are even bigger than we think, by allowing paranoid-squizophrenics take controls of their aircraft. Does Asiana Medical Center have psychiatrist?
Man, we are here talking about serious stuff, like , for instance, Korea civil aviation safety record being one of the worst of the world, comparable to the poorest Central Africa countries...and we are associating this to certain cultural/behaviorial factors.
Your reaction just emphasize this belief. See the trend "Asiana Contracts", do some self critics...
Well, maybe like 411 said, I am losing my time...
Anyo ah sip syo!

7x7
27th Aug 2001, 10:15
Knew a bloke (my neighbour when I was a kid) who spent three and a half years as a prisoner of war to the Japanese. He did the whole nine yards… Changi, Burma Railway. Anyone with even a passing knowledge of history will have some idea of what that involved… starvation, extreme maltreatment, tropical diseases, poor to non-existent medical treatment, even summary execution.

You'd think that anyone who'd gone through all that wouldn't have a hell of a lot of time for the Japanese, but the interesting thing was, this bloke said he didn't mind them particularly. They were harsh taskmasters, but you knew where you stood with them. (I'm only repeating what he said.)

However, he didn't come home without some serious emotional baggage. Where he had some grudging respect for the Japanese, he loathed the Koreans with a passion that had not abated twenty years after the war. There was a reason for this. The Koreans made up the majority of the prison camp guards in the Japanese Army, (because the Japanese considered such work beneath the dignity of a Japanese soldier), so he would have seen many more Koreans than Japanese. The Koreans were also treated terribly by the Japanese, so it might be said that human nature being what it was, they just passed on the grief to the prisoners.

However, the really interesting thing my neighbour said about the Koreans, which, having read the posts above from asiania pilot, shows (I think), that he was an astute judge of human character.

His comment? 'Every race thinks that they are superior to all other races. The Koreans know they are.'

This attitude of racial superiority might be advantageous in an army where soldiers are pitted against soldiers of another nation with the object of defeating them in battle. It may not be quite so advantageous in a multi racial, multi cultural cockpit of a modern jet aircraft. The fact that many local pilots in KAL and Asiania are ex military (often single seat, fast jet) pilots might have some bearing on the problems some Westerners seem to encounter when working with them. The fact that these local pilots are allowed to carry over their military rank, if only tacitly, when they come to the airline might not be seen to help from a Western perspective.

I think it's clear from what asiania pilot has said above that some Korean pilots sees any Westerner coming to Korea to work as a failure in his own country and seriously below their standards. I think it only fair to say that some Western pilots who attempt to do so do in fact have chequered histories. But until there's a total turnaround in the attitudes of the older Korean pilots to CRM, accepting criticism from junior crew and to acceptance of people not of their culture, there are going to be continuing problems in Korean cockpits, problems that will sometimes lead to accidents.

I'm told there's hope. The younger graduates of the civil training programme are said to be breaking this military mindset. However, in the short term, they are the poor sods we hear about being beaten by their training captains.

ELAC
27th Aug 2001, 10:40
Funny how the only Korean accident that they can ever remember is the one where a western pilot was in command. The Korean FO's interference on the controls and the fact that that was the factor that caused the airplane to over-run the runway ... well that is always very conveniently forgotten.

LRdriver
27th Aug 2001, 11:49
Considering that this is a discussion forum I welcome the view and opinion from the other side.. It makes interesting reading and as much as we may disagree with asianas defence, it must be allowed in the name of democracy..

PS hes right, I think we all can think of a stupid accident happening in all airlines

michaell 72
27th Aug 2001, 12:01
Asiana pilot...
Whilst earning my stripes, so to speak, I was a flight instructor. At my school we had many O/S students including some from Korea. It was a proven fact on the aerodrome that Korean students took a hell of a lot longer than other nationalities to make the grade. When challenged by students why they could not attempt their CPL flight test, they were told they were not up to CASA standard. A number of students protested so much that the CFI put them up for a test. Everyone of these students failed their initial test. It can not be said that these students were treated differently to any other student with regards to their training. Through out their training the students and instructors became firm friends, with friendships continuing past training.

I do not wish to offend, however this is my experience with Korean pilots. :rolleyes:

Few Cloudy
27th Aug 2001, 13:55
Matter of fact the crash with the Canadian Captain involved some lousy cockpit discipline from his FO. Way I heard it an unstabilised approach resulted from this behaviour. Any more info?

stator vane
27th Aug 2001, 14:24
i couldn't read this thread and stay quiet.

first of all, i was at asiana, captain 737 from nov 96 to mar 98, so i do know some of what it is like inside the company.

secondly,
when i read asiana pilot's replies, i could honestly agree with what he said! and even his perspective is not that unusual.

when reading his words, put yourself in his place in trying to write in another language. some of us couldn't even begin to do that.

not in any certain order:

how many american pilots thought that a missile might have been the cause of the TWA 747 off New York?

and when one goes back to the war days, lets be honest that ALL COUNTRIES did things that shouldn't have been done. read THE DAY OF TWO SUNS to see how americans did nuclear tests on the marshal island's people AFTER THE WAR! hard not to compare that to what the germans cooked in their ovens.

as to the slowness of their learning, did not some aces from WW2 fail their first tests and went to canada to try again and later become some of the best of the best?
did not douglas bader make an early mistake and lose his lower legs and then become one of the best. slow learners can often later become the best.

and through no fault of the pilots themselves, they are placed into the right seat of 737 with about 300 hours. how many of us would refuse that opportunity ourselves, and not make very similar mistakes? and they do go from right seat 737 to right seat 747 and then back to left seat 737. there will be mistakes.

as to 747's taxing into other aircraft, i do think americans have done their share of that also.

culturally, they do start out differently than most of us. they are raised from birth into a very strict authoritative respect for elders, etc. the ones i met that had learned to fly in other countries were as good as any other i have seen, individual differences allowed.

his conclusion was spot on.

his "what i am trying to tell you" is spot on.

as to racial superiority, i remember separate water fountains in alabama, USA, and take a drive through montana and see the reservations.

read what the americans did to many who simply looked oriental in california during WW2.

back to flying;

i've been there and done that in korea.
a small country with short flights, poor scheduling. i know that accumalative fatique has a lot to do with many of those accidents, incidents. that is fault of management.

as to the accusation of propaganda-come to europe and you will hear another view of america that we are sheltered from in the states.

see what they think of an american ATP written test in europe.

i personally encountered bad sim instructors there but i have seen them in the USA as well as elsewhere.

and don't get me started on the FAA!!!

just another numbered pilot

:p

WANDERLUST
27th Aug 2001, 15:34
As an instructor and check pilot for KAL (FSBTI)I can tell you that although KAL has had its problems in the past the change within the last twelve months is quite dramatic and is well on its way to being able to stand with any major airline in the realm of pilot training and flight safety.
There is a lot of energy being put into this company at all levels inorder to improve its operation standards. I know for a fact that some of the major American and European airlines do not all have the standard that they claim to have.
The Cat2 grading from the FAA had nothing to do with the two Korean airlines.
Be fair.

Invaribly
27th Aug 2001, 16:34
Spot on Asiana pilot.I am sick and tired of all the "American lovers" on this site.It's not all like it is on tv you know!
Asiana pilot is perfectly accurate and right in my opinion.Make no mistake about the catagory2 downgrade - Americans starting up trouble again.
All I can say to Asiana pilot and his likes is not to be afraid to voice your very welcome opinion on this site.It's about time all these "Yanks"got put in there place.They are destroying the whole of the world in my opinion.THE $ IS THEIR GOD.They have no morals or respect for anyone else - big brother throwing his big fat weight around.
Well done Asiana pilot and keep the good work up.

smiths
27th Aug 2001, 18:39
ELAC and Few Cloudy,

Asiana pilot was referring to a different accident at Cheju.

Barry Woods was the captain of the KE A300 accident. It happened because the F/O pulled the yoke back after the plane had already landed on the runway. Capt. Woods passed away early this year after a long battle with cancer. If my memory serves me correctly, he was 57.

stator vane
27th Aug 2001, 19:42
Invariably;

now you go to the other end of the spectrum!

i am american and i do not fit into your description of americans!

if you are british, read your history books and recall what the brits did around the world when the chance arose. as well as the spanish, dutch, belgians, japanese, portuguese, norwegians, mexicans, germans, french, italians (and the list goes on) at different times in history!!!(and catholics too!)

and americans as well.

don't blame me for bush junior being president. i did vote for his father. at least he was in the military service and got wet after his plane went down. a bit more than junior did, or clinton at that.

i agreed with asiana pilot, but i can't agree with what you wrote.

mccartney put it well, "there is good and bad, in everyone" and we can put country as well as airline in 'everyone's place.

:)

[ 27 August 2001: Message edited by: stator vane ]

Invaribly
27th Aug 2001, 21:38
"there is good and bad in everyone" - unfortunatly some get to voice their anger more than others.Just look at what israel are doing to the Palisteins - or is that forbidden teritory in the US?
Like it or not ,they are slowly killing the world with their raw and ignorant abuse of power and history.
There is good and bad in all but unfortunatly there is 99%bad in the US .An abusive lot they are.
I am not english by the way.I was born Pusan in Korea and now live europe with my Korean parents and family.
By the way ,your educational system in the states seems to speak volumes about the quality of young students you lot are chearning out. - All fat,All watch MTV,All highly ignorant ,All on drugs,All eat junk food etc etc - oh I'm sorry ,not all,but 99.99%Happy now?And these people are running the world!Good god what is in store next?

stator vane
28th Aug 2001, 01:09
invariably:

your use of the term ALL is poor indeed. what school taught you that definition?

i tried to send you an email but it was blocked.

i don't want to use this aviation forum to pursue this subject any further.

if it weren't for brits, aussies and those nasty americans, amoung others, your country would be part of north korea, and all of europe would be speaking german with goose steps and brown suits.

but your attitude on this thread gives good evidence about how off-balanced views of pilots can get in the cockpit.

767driver
28th Aug 2001, 02:17
Gentleman,

This tread only reinforces my advice: unless you have no alternatives, DO NOT EVEN CONSIDER AN OUTFIT LIKE ASIANA.

Invaribly
28th Aug 2001, 02:22
you are all a discrace and a shame to this nasty forum.It's all pro brit's and Yanks.All else can go to high hell.My father is a KAL B777 capt and is well above any western pilot.End this thread if you will,but only for convenience on your behalf.

Cyclic Hotline
28th Aug 2001, 02:55
Invaribly!

Hmm, interesting name - lets just look it up in the dictionary for a definition shall we?

Aha, seems to be a bit of a problem here - perhaps it should be in Invariably?

The one thing that is invariable about your posts is your poor opinion of the USA, Americans and anything American (although you do not limit yourself to that, by any means). The very type of opinions that you yourself express, are identical to those that you accuse "99.99%" of the world of considering representative of Korea.

Apparently at these American schools;


"By the way ,your educational system in the states seems to speak volumes about the quality of young students you lot are chearning out. - All fat,All watch MTV,All highly ignorant ,All on drugs,All eat junk food etc etc - oh I'm sorry ,not all,but 99.99%Happy now?

I think you you are guilty of nothing more than demonstrating the exact qualities that you lambast others for;

"There is good and bad in all but unfortunatly there is 99%bad in the US .An abusive lot they are.

"Thats if anyone can of course.Describe situations to me and indeed the rest of us all,because I gather that 99% of what has been said about this airline has been from "a friend of a friend of a friend told me. . .etc"."



"Ok I am not a qualified pilot,..."

Compare that to the profile;


PPRuNe Flight Deck Qualified
Member Number: 33720
Registered: 09 May 2001
Posts: 32
Email Address: godsavethepope@<hidden>
Occupation: type rated pilot.
Interests: flying!


You maybe nothing more than a keen young wannabee, but for the sake of your own credibility you might want to think a little harder before you actually post some of the nonsense you put here. If the manner that you are exhibiting yourself on this forum is in any way reflected in your real life, then there may be some basis for your acrimonious treatment of others, resulting from the animosity you appear to generate from those you come into contact with.

I guess I am now confused as to who you are and what you do - could you enlighten us?

I won't take you up on your original invitation

"I have a really great idea - instead of insulting me in your replies and calling a f***ing fool"
because this is exactly part and parcel of this entire thread (the treatment of others in this manner), and is simply not representative of how this board, or the majority of its members work!

Cyclic Hotline
28th Aug 2001, 03:01
Well, while I was writing my reply, a further little missive popped up from Invaribly.

If I was ever to have seen anything to validate some of the past comments on this board, it is in those few lines above this post! :)

Say no more!

767driver
28th Aug 2001, 04:02
Hei, Cyclic!

Why you waste your time with a problematic teen like Invariably?
This is a serious board, not a place to argue with a poor soul that is a direct reflex of a xenophobic-paranoid military mentality.
And you get really mad with him!...C'mon, relax...lets enjoy this space better!

Cyclic Hotline
28th Aug 2001, 04:12
Believe me, I'm not Mad! ;)

I found his entire commentary to be so patently flawed that it was time to take 10 minutes to illustrate it! :)

Your portrait of the individual in question is, I feel, how should I put it - insightful! :)

asiana pilot
28th Aug 2001, 05:41
To you all...

I do appreciated for your all comments.

I joined Asiana Airlines in 1990 and I am flying B747-400 as a Captain.

While I was a B737 First Officer, there were many Ex-Pat Captains working for Asiana Airlines and still do.

At the time, the Ex-Pat Captains were from USA, Brazil, Australia, Britain Mexico and Etc..

The Ex-Pat Captains did a wonderful job for Asiana Airlines and they were respected among all the First Officers and most of the Captains. (Unfortunately I cannot say all of the Captains - like 7x7 said.... ego problems)

I personally learned alot from Ex-Pat Captains because they were gentlemen of the gentlemen and they were willing to help all the First Officers and other Captains.

They worked so hard for Asiana Airlines and I am proud say that they were the foundation
of Asiana Airlines.

Asiana Airlines have hired only the qualified Ex-Pat Captains and still do..

The Sim Check ride is not that hard.

Eng Fire, Engin Fail, one Eng inop landing
or 2 eng inop landing, hydralic problems, maybe electrical problems, VOR approach, Missed Approach..

When they have Sim Check, normally applicants fly with another applicants.
Of course, if they cannot be manned with another applicant, one of our first officer will assist him. But the FO will just do whatever the captain commend.

The Check Airman normally don't comment during the Sim Check.
Because he is not there to instruct the applicant.

He will not yell at you nor critisize about your skill.
He just want to find out if your performance is within Asiana standard.

For 767 Driver..

I don't know why you were not accepted for the job with Asiana Airlines..

But let me tell you this, 767 Driver...

The Ex-Pat Captains working for Asiana Airlines are well qualified for the job and they are respected among korean pilots.

(If you don't know why you were not qualified, please tell me your name and I will try to find out for you.)

Yes, we do have harsh medical exam here.
And it's not only for Ex-Pat Captains. We korean pilots must go through the same exam every 6 months.

In conclusion...

We pilots cannot afford to make mistates nor accidents.

But we can learn from those accidents and incidents.

* Can we critisize others mistakes??????

I don't think so.
We human can make mistakes.

* Are we perfect ????

No, but we do work hard not to make stupid mistakes.


I do come in PPRUNE for the informations which I can learn from..

NOT TO CRITISIZE OTHER

Rollingthunder
28th Aug 2001, 05:58
Asiana Pilot,

I thought that was a damn fine post.

I don't think anyone in the industry wishes hard times for any operator.

7x7
28th Aug 2001, 07:45
Regarding invariable's[ post of 27 Aug at 22.22 and his comment
------------------------------
"My father is a KAL B777 capt and is well above any western pilot"
--------------------------
See my post on Page 1 (27 Aug, 06:15).

- Q.E.D.

(For non-English speakers, that means, very loosely translated from the Latin "My point is proven by demonstration.")

And let me add my congratulations to asiana pilot on his last post. You don't say whether you're a graduate of the military or the civil school. I'm sort of hoping you're an example of the younger Korean ex-military guys, because if you are, it shows there's hope that the system is changing for the better.

hey1000
28th Aug 2001, 08:09
Well said Asiana

Finally you came along and tell those pilots who were talking nasty things about airlines which they were dreamed of working for but couldn't, because they weren't qualified.

767 driver and his fellow guys are not starving to death, ----- thank god for that.

Friends of mine are working for Korean Air and Asiana Airlines as expats and they are very happy.

They even called me several times to come over and work for Korean Air or Asiana.
I don't have enough time (B767), but when I do, I will be glad to work for them.

Sure they told me some difficulties, but that is something I should be aware of, because I will working for an airline which is not in my own country.

Hope to fly for your company pretty soon. :)

Skol
28th Aug 2001, 08:20
In 1997 I observed a KAL sim detail in 747-400 at KAL sim complex in Inchon. Most appalling training I have ever seen. Instructor shouting, no use of proper checklist allowed for emergencies, poor briefing, no use of autopilot or flight director. Pilots loaded up so that proper conduct of detail impossible. in my opinion this was to prove that Korean pilots were superior to foreigners.

hey1000
28th Aug 2001, 08:51
767 driver

Why don't you tell asiana pilot who you are and let him find out why you were not accepted.

So let other pilots who are starving, can learn from your mistakes.

Amos
28th Aug 2001, 15:55
Invaribly, unfortunately, has a big, big problem!

:cool:

sirwa69
28th Aug 2001, 16:23
I have just read the Delta report, Ouch! I do hope that things have changed a lot since then.
Invaribly why don't you play on the Yahoo boards where you will find posters who have the same level of inteligence and maturity as yourself.

lightspeed
28th Aug 2001, 21:44
Dear Asiana 747 Captain,

I'm currently doing my flight training in Australia as well as my ATPL exams. My friends and i who are from the University Of Western Sydney have formed a Korean Australian Pilots Association and would like to ask you a few questions if you don't mind.
Would you be able to email me your email address please. My email address is mcrit@<hidden> "Thank you!"

[ 28 August 2001: Message edited by: lightspeed ]

767driver
29th Aug 2001, 09:59
Fellows,

Please see my reply on the thread "SIA JOBS MkII".

It is fascinating: when airline's management staff register on a Board with the solely objective to make personal attacks, you can be sure they are affraid of the truth.

Asiana Pilot: you're right. Foreign captains were respected when the airline needed desperately them. Now is different because local pilots THINK they can do it themselves.
But the airline bosses know the truth and keep on recruiting foreign captains.

Here is the problem: a cold war between the union and airline administrators, were foreign pilots are used as negotiating matter.
That's is why the evaluation system has not fair, have no technical grounds. It is jokingly regarded by foreign pilots as a lottery.
To be failed or not is just a random event.

Well, it is not a matter of bad luck that South Korea civil aviation safety records are the worst in the world. Please click on "Tech/Safety" and take some minutes reading the impeccable and accurate Delta Airlines Audit Report. Now it describes better Asiana present situation than KAL, for that matter.

Personally, I am very happy back to the airline were I've been building a solid 18 years career. I am far from being a great ace (like the one who got a -400 command in less than 10 years...).
But I am line instructor, was invited to be a checkpilot, never failed a single check. Enjoy a good and stable roster, a friendly professional environment, nice aircraft.
Money? No good indeed. But there is no perfection.
I thank God I made the right decision in getting out such an outfit.

I just try to prevent good fellows from making this mistake.

Djoni Boerhanoeddin
29th Aug 2001, 18:32
Dear ASIANA PILOT,
I think you are not informed, because OZ are recruiting 3 F/O from GA resently, I don't know if OZ can accepting them, mean that the safety standard are in the same level of GA pilots and the company can continue recruiting more F/O from GA, low salary and hard working pilots

Turtlenest
30th Aug 2001, 00:51
Date: 08/06/1997
Location: Agana, Guam
Airline: Korean Airlines
Aircraft: Boeing 747-300
Registration: HL-7468
Fatalities/No. Aboard: 228:254
Details: The aircraft crashed into Nimitz Hill, 3 miles short of Runway 06R, while making a non-precision approach in heavy rain to A.B. Won Guam International Airport. The runway glide slope system was inoperative. In addition, the Minimum Safe Altitude Warning system (MSAW) was also not working due to a software problem. The captain's failure to adequately brief and execute the non-precision approach and the first officer's and flight engineer's failure to effectively monitor and cross-check the captain's execution of the approach. Contributing to these failures were the captain's fatigue and Korean Air's inadequate flight crew training. Contributing to the accident was the Federal Aviation Administration's (FAA) intentional inhibition of the minimum safe altitude warning system (MSAW) at Guam and the agency's failure to adequately manage the system.

Date: 08/10/1994
Location: Cheju, South Korea
Airline: Korean Airlines
Aircraft: Airbus A300-600R B4
Registration: HL-7296
Fatalities/No. Aboard: 0:160
Details: The aircraft overran the runway and caught fire while landing during adverse weather conditions. The approach was flown with slats/flaps at 15/20 degrees due to suspected windshear. Crew error. There was a struggle and argument between the captain and copilot during the last seconds of the landing as to whether they should go-around.

Date: 11/25/1989
Location: Seoul, South Korea
Airline: Korean Airlines
Aircraft: Fokker F-28 Fellowship 4000
Registration: HL-7255
Fatalities/No. Aboard: 1:52
Details: The plane crashed during takeoff after losing the left engine, directional control and overrunning the runway and catching fire.

Date: 07/27/1989
Location: Tripoli, Libya
Airline: Korean Airlines
Aircraft: McDonnell Douglas DC-10-30
Registration: HL-7328
Fatalities/No. Aboard: 75:200 +6
Details: The aircraft crashed short of the runway while landing in fog. Failure of the captain to land without analyzing the weather data.

Date: 11/29/1987
Location: Andaman Sea
Airline: Korean Airlines
Aircraft: Boeing 707-300C
Registration: HL-7406
Fatalities/No. Aboard: 115:115
Details: The plane crashed while on a flight from Abu Dhabi to Bangkok. Detonation of an explosive device in the passenger cabin left by two passengers who exited the plane at Abu Dhabi. A 75 year old man and Korean woman were arrested as they tried to use fake passports to fly to Rome. While under guard, the man bit into a cyanide capsule and died. The woman, a North Korean agent, confessed to the crime.

Date: 09/01/1983
Location: Sakhalin Island, Russia
Airline: Korean Airlines
Aircraft: Boeing 747-200B
Registration: HL-7442
Fatalities/No. Aboard: 269:269
Details: On a flight from Alaska to South Korea, the airliner drifted off course and twice penetrated Soviet airspace. During the second penetration, the airliner was shot down by a Russian Su-15 Air Force fighter with air-to-air missiles. The aircraft crashed into international waters in the Sea of Japan. U.S. Representative from Georgia Lawrence McDonald killed.

Date: 04/20/1978
Location: Murmansk, Russia, USSR
Airline: Korean Airlines
Aircraft: Boeing 707-300B
Registration: HL-7429
Fatalities/No. Aboard: 2:109
Details: The aircraft, which deviated off course, suffered rapid decompression after being fired upon by a Russian fighter. The aircraft made an emergency landing on a frozen lake.

Date: 01/23/1971
Location: Sokcho, South Korea
Airline: Korean Airlines
Aircraft: Fokker F-27 Friendship 500
Registration: HL-5212
Fatalities/No. Aboard: 2:60
Details: Crash landed on a beach after a hijacker detonated grenades he was carrying. The hijacker and the co-pilot were killed by the grenade explosions.

Add the two freighter crashes in 1999,(Stanstead and Shanghi), the 744 hull loss in Seoul. 8/98, landing, MD88 hull loss, Miho, 1998/9, 747-200 hull loss in 11/80, Seoul landing accident, DC-10 freighter crash in Anchorage in 1980 (?). Of 33 worldwide 747 hull losses, 5 are KAL’s; 15%. This includes 11 losses attritutable to military action, hijackings and the the Tennerife accident. Pilot error only crashes, and KAL accounts for about one quarter of the world’s 747 hull losses. Hummmmmm.

767driver
30th Aug 2001, 04:40
Dear Turtlenest,

You forget to mention Asiana's acidents and incidents.
Nobody wants it, but unfortunately more will come.

...I just can imagine the terrible time insurance brokers may have doing their job at South Korea...a lot of raising eyebrows, certainly.

767driver
30th Aug 2001, 04:52
Ah, yes. There was 1999 KAL MD11 Cargo the crew flew into some buidings 3 minutes after take off, in China. They mistaken altimeters readout (meters in China) and as they were instructed to maintain 1,500 METERS after take off, crew panicked seeing the altimeters winding up fastly passing 1,500 FEET and just pushed forward, plunging the plane into the ground...
So affraid of commit a violation they are...

Roadtrip
30th Aug 2001, 06:26
Reputations are generally earned. KAL has severe crew human factors/CRM issues as well as severe management problems. And the solution is??? . . . . . get rid of the western pilots? Well, like I said . . .

[ 30 August 2001: Message edited by: Roadtrip ]

Skol
30th Aug 2001, 09:13
In Fiji a few months ago and ended up playing golf with 3 Korean F/Os. The Captains were up ahead. Told that Capts dont play golf with F/Os. Infra dig.

lightspeed
30th Aug 2001, 23:23
To Turtlenest!

Mentioning pilot error accidents in regards to Korean Airlines or any other airlines is superficial in our times. Modern investigations into accidents would suggest that pilot error, mechanical failures, weather, etc... as causal factors of an accident is a thing of the past.

As Reason puts it, there are common elements in any accident, latent failures which has remained unnoticed within an airline for a considerable amount of time,arising mainly from management decisions. You have local factors which directy influence performance in the workplace caused by task, situational and environmental factors. Active failures which are errors concerning operational personnel such as pilots, ATC, maintenance, cabin crew etc.... and you also you have inadequate or absent defences which fails to identify and protect the airlines against technical and human failures coming from the three previous elements mentioned.

The tone of this topic seems to revolve around who are the better pilots Korean or western, which is absolutely foolish. To also say "pilot error" as the sole cause of accidents mentioned.

Get it right Turtlenest!, Tenerife accident was between Pan-Am and KLM not KAL. You're just itching with anything that starts with "k", hmmmmmmmmmm...

Hey Turlenest! what's with the accident history on Korean Airlines? Every airline has had an accident, anyone can dig up a history on an airline.

Date: 20/12/1936
Location: Rice Canyon, Newhall, USA
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: DC-2
Fatalities: 12
Details: Crashed into a mountain


Date: 24/10/1947
Location: Bryce Canyon, Utah, USA
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: DC-6
Fatalities: 52
Details: Onboard fire

Date: 17/06/1948
Location: Mount Carmel, USA,
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: DC-6
Fatalities: 43
Details: Onboard fire

Date: 24/08/1951
Location: Oakland USA
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: DC-6B
Fatalities: 50
Details: Hit a Hill

Date: 06/10/1955
Location: Medicine Bow Peak, Laramie, USA
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: DC-4
Fatalities: 66
Details: Crashed into a mountain


Date: 01/11/1955
Location: Denver, USA
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: DC-6B
Fatalities: 44
Details: Mid air bomb

Date: 30/06/1956
Location: Grand Canyon, USA
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: DC-7
Fatalities: 128
Details: mid air collision

Date: 21/04/1958
Location: Sloan, Las Vegas, USA
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: DC-7
Fatalities: 47
Details: mid air collision

Date: 16/12/1960
Location: New York, USA
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: DC-8-11
Fatalities: 134
Details: mid air collision

Date: 11/07/1961
Location: Denver, USA
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: DC-8
Fatalities: 17
Details: crashed on landing

Date: 23/11/1962
Location: Ellicott City, USA
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: Vickers Viscount 745D
Fatalities: 18
Details: bird strike

Date: 09/07/1964
Location: Parrotts Ville,USA
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: Vickers Viscount 745D
Fatalities: 39
Details: onboard fire

Date: 16/08/1965
Location: Chicago,USA
Airline: United AIRLINES
Aircraft: 727-22
Fatalities: 30
Details: crashed into a lake

Date: 11/11/1965
Location: Salt Lake City, USA
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: 727
Fatalities: 41
Details: crashed on landing

Date: 18/01/1965
Location: Los Angeles
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: 727
Fatalities: 38
Details: crashed into ocean

Date: 18/01/1969
Location: Chicago, USA
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: 737-222
Fatalities: 61
Details: crashed on landing

Date: 13/04/1988
Location: Hennenman, South Africa
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: DC-3
Fatalities: 24
Details: fuel pump fire

Date: 24/02/1989
Location: Hawaii, USA
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: 747
Fatalities: 9
Details: cargo door separation

Date: 19/07/1989
Location: Suix City, USA
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: DC-10
Fatalities: 111
Details: hydraulic-engine failure

Date: 03/03/1991
Location: Colorado Springs
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: 737
Fatalities: 25
Details: on landing approach.

[ 30 August 2001: Message edited by: lightspeed ]

Bokomoko
30th Aug 2001, 23:54
Invaribly or invariably,
Why didn't you write on your first post that your father is a captain at KAL? Certainly he, and Delta's report, could tell you more than any other pprune-mate. A major accident can happen to any airline, Asian or Western, but it doesn't mean that the system or the airline is unsafe. However, large hull losses within few years...No Way!!! something is wrong.

lomapaseo and Asiana Captin,
Safety audit and penalties are based on Civil Aviation Authority and include direct or indirect participants. So, beside KAL and Asiana tell me other major Korean airline that goes to the USA and was under FAA supervision?

Captin Asiana,
Do you really believe that Boeing would agree to hide the real story and accept its fault on TWA's crash? How can a lot of investigators, suppliers, rescuers, etc, tell the same lie forever? Based on your imagination, likely KAL007 was under a secret mission....
You are not totally wrong when you say that many airlines had major accidents (and KAL some bizarres), but you can't deny that CRM, well let's update it, Team Resource Management must be improved in your enviroment. I don't know if you've already flown a commercial airline before joining Asiana, if not, do you believe that a pilot with only 10 years has enough experience to fly, as a skipper, a B744? And if a 10-year employee is a B744 captain, how long does an Asiana pilot take to command a narrow body? 2 or 3 years, maybe, and you don't think that Korea must improve its aviation safety....
I'm not American and in my opinion the airplane wasn't created by them (thank you Santos Dumont!) as they try to impose. But we need to agree that it's much better to fly a Boeing airplane than probably a Hyundai 747...

Turtlenest,
Add one more accident to your data base: A B747F at Stansted, 12/22/99.

767Driver
After reading your posts and Delta's report I've an opinion, and I don't know if you can understand me, maybe one day you will:
Todopilotocoreanoézémané.

Regards, folks....
:eek:

grange.guzzler
31st Aug 2001, 02:46
THE DELTA REPORT YOU ALL SO FREQUENTLY REFER TO IS NOT NOT ( I REPEAT NOT) A REPORT FROM DELTA.

It is the observations and submission of ONE of many auditors. The individual concerned had NO involvement in check and training before or since. Caveat Emptor

Turtlenest
31st Aug 2001, 19:44
LS, I hate to state the obvious, United has been in business about 40 years longer than KAL, with a fleet about 6 times the size of KAL, and with about 10 times as many departures per day. All airlines do have accidents/incidents, however, for KAL's size, it is off the charts!

aviator
31st Aug 2001, 20:00
lightspeed,

It seems like you maybe got an extra accident report on United Airlines:

&lt;&lt;Date: 13/04/1988
Location: Hennenman, South Africa
Airline: UNITED AIRLINES
Aircraft: DC-3
Fatalities: 24
Details: fuel pump fire&gt;&gt;

Lets give credit where credit is due... ;) ;)

no sig
1st Sep 2001, 01:23
While working in Seoul with Korean pilots and airline ops staff, I couldn't quite put my finger on just what it was that caused me so much concern for operation I was involved with. After a while it struck me that, at least with the folks I was with, there was no 'culture of aviation'. What I mean by that is, in the US and Europe we have lived with aviation for most of our lives, safety is ingrained and the rules for the operation of aircraft are understood and the risks if we don't .

In Korea this understanding/culture was lacking at a very basic level. I hope that it has improved in the past 6 years or so.

767driver
2nd Sep 2001, 02:22
Bokomoko

I'll try to figure out what you meant...I guess I have already a good idea!...

It is funny to see korean F/O way to do things: all of them uses note books (and even captains, for that matter...) filled with LOTS of colourfull writing in an interesting mixing of Korean an English language. These material contents information
that it seems they are incapable to handle on each flight by the standard means.
There are interesting stories of foreign captains that just take the notebook away of the F/O and said: - "just flight with the authorized manuals and publications!".
The poor guys usually become so frightened and desperate, incapable of perform their duties...
It seems that all their habilities are contained on that few manuscript pages.

7474 Driver
2nd Sep 2001, 14:29
Why are my posts being removed from this site like many other peoples?

PPRuNe Towers
2nd Sep 2001, 14:39
Your post was removed because it entirely consisted of abuse and swearing directed at 3 specific writers on this thread.

Additionally you seem to be very confused as to whether you are the deeply respected line pilot and trainee psychiatrist named Invaribly or the equally impressive new polymath 7474.

As and until you become more comfortable with your variant of Munchausen's by Proxy disorder it's probably best you stick to more suitable sites.

I believe Crayola do a particularly good one.

Rob

[ 02 September 2001: Message edited by: PPRuNe Towers ]

fullforward
3rd Sep 2001, 00:07
South Korea is an admirable country, with great achievements on all fields.
Their people are generally lovely and friendly.

So it is difficult to understand the reasons for their Civil Aviation being so recklessly mismanaged, leading to a so low safety level.

All the bare facts demonstrated on this posts are producing purely emotional/personnal reactions that just emphasize the fact that things are going havoc over there. Congratulations to PPrune in filtering abusive and offensive posts.

Let's focus on training and evaluation.
It is becoming harder and harder for them to recruit really qualified professionals, as local competent captains are on short supply.
For instance, Asiana evaluation criteria is virtually non existent: several highly qualified (more than 10,000 hr PIC) captains are usually failed by local checkpilots with less than half the foreign captain airline experience, for no consistent reason.
And this after undergoing 2, 3 months of "training" with local captains with good records from them.

This high failure rate is not related to technical standards. It is a merely political move: they either try to demonstrate that their standard is so high that only a few can pass... or a move by their union against airline top management.
A friend of mine, an excellent professional by all means, tried to help his partner, another foreign captain, on simulator checkride. His partner performance on sim was being consistently below average, so the guy was really nervous on checkride.
You know what? The Korean checkpilot elected (on a disguise way, of course) my friend as an enemy and went after him, from that day on, writing fallacious checkrides reports.
Yes, he requested to do my friends next route check...
The results: my friend was fired after 4 months and his partner, the less skilled pilot, got the job...
Unfortunately, lack of character is equally spread among all nationalities.
One of the most frightening checkpilots, few years ago, just forget to close his side window, on his route training with a foreign instructor. He had to close it in flight.
Now he is the almighty checkpilot, with the highest failure rate...
And it is a part of local culture NOT SHOWING checkride notes upon finishing it. But checkpilots does not have an idea of what the word ethics is all about: they consider reasonable do any comments about someone else's checkride to anyone they whants. True or not.

As these situations are happening on regular basis only few people are daring to apply to a so deceptive outfit, as the more year around Parc and others advertising proves.

Asiana is so desperate that they ultimately got a bunch of eastern europeans for the 767. The problem is this pilots ARE NOT type rated and some are not even current on any type! They took this guys paying a peanuts salary in order to "build" captains from scratch. It is a complete nonsensical madness. There is no substitute for experience, it is an old saying known since Wright Bros or Santos Dumont. But they ignore it (see the 747-400 skipper with less than 10 years airline experience on this thread).
It is an open question what local media or insurance companies think on this regard.

Bear in mind that these poor european guys have no alternatives, as their airlines are bankrupted. So they would be on their knees for all that, say, exoctic local way of training and evaluating. With all that shouting, cursing and even beating...

Skol
3rd Sep 2001, 03:24
Further to my previous post on KAL's dodgy operations. A number of -400 drivers from Canadian opted to go to KAL in 1998. All were canned one way or another. They didnt resign because if they did they had to pay KAL US$10000 I believe was the sum. All were fired or failed. Something to do with what is called the military mafia. The technical exam was written in such poor english that I got the impression it was designed to fail those that sat it. Stay away from KAL. I think their union has taken care of that anyway. Written in the contract: "The mission must be accomplished". i.e. dont divert or else

[ 03 September 2001: Message edited by: Skol ]

zerobeach
4th Sep 2001, 18:30
To 767driver.

I wonder why you are so angry about KAL and ASIANA. I don't know how much time you spend with us. but The more I read your post , The more I feel your hate to us.

Maybe, maybe.... you have enough reason to do that . But isn't it a little bit too much?

one thing I wanna mention for your message about getting rid of foreign pilot in KAL and ASIANA is that it is not because of racial standard or safety excuse.
- and who the hell dose tell you ASIANA and KAL pilots want that? -

you are a 767 driver. so mabe you have been working for asiana cause KAL doesn't have 767 fleet.

It is because of company's double standard.

company gives you more than twice of money than korean(Not only for KAL) pilots get. but korean pilot fly more than twice time than you fly.
and there is problem.

do you think it is fair?


If we got same money and same working condition, who would say anything against that?

you might see lot of creepy checker. but me too. because he is the same guy!. it's not because he specially don't like foreigners.

and about small note book.
If it is useful, why don't we use them?
did you say that the first officer get scared because the GREAT CAPTAIN took out that note?
Oh, snap out of it!

I wonder if the GREAT CAPTAIN was out of his mind. If he was a really good captain, why he did such a thing? do you think it is good to scare your f/o in such a way before flight?
Even If it was a tranning flight, and If I were IP, I would rather tell him "don't take your note, the best source is your chart" in debriefing after flight.

I have seen lots of student bring culculator and use them. In the same manner, the note it is just easy tool not a bible. I don't think they can't fly well without note like what you tried to say.

I wish you could speak korean well. then you can say what you hate and what is your wish easily to korean pilot.
but unfortunately, I have seen only one mexican captain who tried to learn Korean language in propessonal language school until now.

[ 04 September 2001: Message edited by: benedictus ]

fullforward
4th Sep 2001, 22:34
Dear Benedictus,

It is quite overwhelming that so many korean pilots register on this board with the only purpose to defend their airline or do personal attacks. Even though these airlines pay half the locals as much as foreigners.

But you, as many others who try to deny posts that focus on the big and serious problems korean air transport industry is undergoing, fail to get the big picture.

I say again: unless korean aviation managers and authorithies look seriously at these questions and mismanagements we'll see korean carriers making headlines again.

It is not foreign pilots fault to get more money than locals. It is just a way to atract them to a so different (and harsh) professional environment. With all the unfair, unpredictable way to do things. And because locals present a lot of inadequacy and lack of experience.

But, to be completely sincere, I do not think Korea will ever enjoy an advanced, modern, friendly and CRM oriented air transport professional environment, for the unique reason their cultural constraints will preclude the development of the adequate mentality a modern jet transport cockpit requires. And this have nothing to do with korean language abilities...

Oh, yes, that story 767 driver told about korean pilots notebooks is absolutely real. It is a clear demonstration of their inadequacy regarding english language management and good classroom preparation.

Finally, I think the main purpose of all this board is to warn prospective applicants about what they would be getting in Korea, at what price and at what risk.

Won2Go
5th Sep 2001, 01:23
Benedictus,

I must take you to task. You claim that foreign pilots earn more than twice what Korean pilots do. What you conveniently omit is that there other payments to Korean pilots that are not paid to foreign captains. I refer specifically to education allowances. Overtime payments are also calculated in a much more favourable way for Korean pilots.

Total cost to KAL for a foreign captain is very similar to the total cost for a Korean captain.

caulfield
5th Sep 2001, 02:28
The underlying reason for the poor safety record of KAL lies deep in the psyche of their people.Whilst they are undoubtedly hard-working and capable people,they will not address and learn from their mistakes.In aviation,that is a recipe for disaster.Pride goes before a fall.
Having flown out there,I can confirm that the A300 incident was not the fault of the Canadian Captain whatsoever.Which means that all KAL accidents have been with local crews.The only reason Asiana hasnt crashed more than once is that they fly remarkably reliable Boeing products.
There is a seething resentment for foreigners and the only foreigners who settle in there are NOT those from a western environment.
It is also very true that they fly by rote...anything not included in the checklist or SOP is met with wide-eyed disbelief.There doesnt appear to be any instinctive airmanship.But as long as its normal operations and the autopilot is working,they make above average operators.
BTW,the guy who tried to draw a comparison with an airline like United,should really get a life.

hey1000
5th Sep 2001, 03:12
767 driver and fullforward:

I finally got to talk with my friends (who are B767 Expats) in Asiana Airlines.

They have told me that who you are, 767driver.

I will not say your name in this board.

However, I must say this.

They told me that they were so glad you failed because you were so ..........
(I can't say it)

Anyway, good luck where-ever you are and
"God Bless" which-ever airline you work for.

And to the webmaster..

If someone curse your company, what would you do ??????

(Like, this company had so many accidents and MORE TO COME.)

Well,

Good Bye to you all..
I had with these nonsense...

OH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've got a job with Asiana Airlines.
And I will ask prospective applicants..

Are you starving to death ?
You must be...
Because...
That's what 767driver and fullforward said..

---------------------------------------------


;) ;) ;)

Bokomoko
5th Sep 2001, 04:04
In my opinion, the most important thing is: How could Koreans improve their commercial aviation safety?
I'm really sure that many participants in this discussion are good professionals and nobody is here to judge anyone or to tell if Koreans have ability to fly or not. But, from some years ago until now, based on facts, statistics and after reading some good pprune posts, it's undeniable that many unusual things have happened in South Korea if we'd compare with the minimum acceptable and satisfactory aviation standards. Have the foreign pilots been important to give some help or they should exclude anyone trying to control their problems without any interference? That's the point. Before banning with (at least) a non professional way, using ridiculous criteria to undermine a likely Western invasion they must recruit good people engaged in aviation (beside pilots), paying large salaries, if necessary, always looking for improvements in their system, including their rudimentary union. It's also a fact that nobody would want to see a disruption in its seniority list, with non native pilots, but I'd appreciate to work with highly competent specialists in my airline if I'd know that they were there to enhance even more my job quality. The first step is to overcome any pride. Is it hard? Maybe, but it would be a great investment to the future.

fullforward
5th Sep 2001, 06:49
Caulfield and Bokomoko,

Congratulations on the excellent posts! Well within what a Bureau like this is all about.
Caulfield, as a matter of fact you're perfect on translating on few words what really goes on over there. And you have to consider that such savvy local airmen are actually checking professionals with at least twice as much their qualifications...

I would not waste my time to react again to such primitive attacks from poor souls like hey1000 et alia, but it again confirms the state of desperation amidst such unfortunate and mistaken outfits. It maybe very hard to realize their own incompetency. Too bad.

fullforward
5th Sep 2001, 06:54
Caulfield,

Asiana lost 3 aircraft already, in a little more than 10 years of existence...

best regards to you

zerobeach
5th Sep 2001, 19:29
To Fullforward

thank for your answer, but some of your point of view is wrong.
What I want to say is not defend our company or our situation.
Did I tell you we are perfect?
Did I tell you we don't have any problem?

read my aticle again, please----!

and see correctly.

You wrote "because locals present a lot of inadequacy and lack of experience"
then how can you explain about most of senior korean captain? they got more expearience than well paid foreign pilot.
your kind of view, isn't it a kind of another unreasonable discrimination?
The westerner is better than so call "Oriental people"
What I tried tell you was that
" we are not against foreign pilots, we are against discrimination"

did you also say
" I do not think Korea will ever enjoy an advanced, modern, friendly and CRM oriented air transport professional environment, for the unique reason their cultural constraints will preclude the development of the adequate mentality a modern jet transport cockpit requires. And this have nothing to do with korean language abilities..."
How dare you are to say this!
are you a some kind of prophet?
I'm not sure how long have you ever been in Korea.
and I don't know why you got so mad about to ASIANA.

Maybe it's because you think you got fully qualified but you failed final test,
or if you were passed test, you got bad impression from some check pilot during your stay.
- oh, nothing personal -

Yea! I can't deny we got creepy checker - I'm not sure he is still there -
But it is depend on personality.
you can't blame every pilot in korea for that kind of reason
and you can't say
"I do not think Korea will ever enjoy an advanced, modern, friendly and CRM oriented air transport professional environment, for the unique reason their cultural constraints will preclude the development of the adequate mentality a mordern jet transportation."
don't you think it is insulting?

If you wanna more creepy checker, I can give you the names of creepy checkers when I was in flight school in US.

and mention about korean language school.
did you ever say about CRM in this forum? or 767driver? or some one?
why i should have seen only one foreign pilot who went for language school such a long period?
If you worry about CRM, and MENTION ABOUT CULTURAL CONSTRAIN , at least you should try understand it, shouldn't it?

it is hard to get second language as much as native language.
but you should never ever mention about CULTURAL CONSTRAIN unless you can speak and read like that mexican captain.

"Oh, yes, that story 767 driver told about korean pilots notebooks is absolutely real. It is a clear demonstration of their inadequacy regarding english language management and good classroom preparation"
- Ba Bo ya , ji lal ma! - i wish you can understand this word.
didn't i tell you it is just a easy tool?
I don't bring that note book and most of my friend also.
I'm not sure where you saw that, but if you saw that note it must be in route trannig time.
some of route trainee bring note which has frequency and unusual atc phraseology and atc instruction.
you know what?
who do you think use most nonstandard atc language in this word?
I'll give you answer at the bottom of this article.

anyway Don't make it generalize to all korean pilot.
-some times it is convienient having that note. because some atc controler forget hand over.
I got that kind things several times. I couldn't contact last fq. because it is too far or due to static nose .
what are you gonna do?
you can find it from chart or you can find used fq. from note.
it is just matter of time consuming.

NEVER INSULT US! because of note.

If someone tell to everybody " the reason for anger of you and driver is because you failed final test in asiana.
so you hate us. because it hurt your proud self ego as an excellent pilot" , Could you aceept that?

Once again I don't wanna try defend my company or korean goverment.
In a way, they are lazy and late to respond.

but we, Korean pilots, trying to change what was wrong. It will takes time. and we cannot do it alone.
that's why we made union.

At this very moment, some of KAL pilots union leaders in jail without bail.
All they want is safer environment for flight crew.

there are lot's of controversy about 2nd degree from FAA.
because it published at once.
I don't want debate history of accident and incident. it was happened. i know.
but the publishing time is a little bit strange.

and also there a lots of thing debate
from saying "we deserve that" to some f-15 fighter conspiracy theory.
but fact is fact.
we have several bad thing. but not recently - relatively -
why didn't they down grade after accident? or warn that time.
as far, i know FAA leak there grade to media before it is published. why?
maybe i got wrong information.

- I doubt who give the authority to US goverment can judge everything in there convinient way, even though they won't accept any others con-opinion. -
- why they withraw repregentative from south africa? why they will break missile agreement? - oh just kindding! don't pay attention. -

I wish u guys talk in prospective way.
I know what we were wrong. you can give us adivise. but do not hurt our feeling. it's not a good way to participate in forum.

and bear in mind folks.
KCAB got 2nd degree. not pilots. - don't get me wrong I don't wanna word chasing, u know what i mean? -


and To WON2GO
where are you come from?
you sound like 'chosun daily paper'
did you ever calculate that money?
do you have any idea for overtime fee for foreign pilot?
is it much more favoracle to korean pilot? - Oh ... my... god!!!! - :-&gt;
if you wanna know more about that, please come to 'http://www.apu.or.kr' and ask about that again.
if you are a foreigner, you may use english. they will give you detail information.


- thank for everyone who read my article, I'll go out for a week, see you soon -

p.s. : I think it is US controller. they can speak english but frequently use nonstandard ICAO atc word.
believe it or not.

ELAC
5th Sep 2001, 21:30
Benedictus

I cannot agree with everything that you have written, but I do congratulate you on putting forward your perspective in a reasonable and well considered manner.

If you and others in the company with your attitude continue to work towards the improvement of KAL things will change for the better.

stator vane
5th Sep 2001, 22:52
Benedictus;

i was there on the B737 from Nov 96 to Mar 98 and i think i know who you are talking about-the one mexican pilot who learned to speak korean.

yes he is an excellent person. but the others who did not take classes are not any worse. while i was there, i wanted to take classes but with the schedule like it was, it was difficult to take any regular classes.

it is unfortunate that the thread is as aggressive as it has become.

i enjoyed working at Asiana for the most part. it is a difficult cultural change for most westerners, but if we had open minds, then we could learn to adjust.

i had the priviledge to get to know the BIRD, the american who was on the B737 for 5 years, as well as the other american that was there for about as long and who married a Korean woman. i am the short american who went for a bicycle ride and came back in an ambulance!

so don't pay much attention to these replies that indicate that they are sour for one reason or the other.

they do not speak for the majority of us at all.

most of us know that all airlines as well as individuals have made many gross errors.

to compare airlines with each other is one thing, but to compare ourselves with what we are now as to what we were in the past is the best course. if we all aim for improvement as individuals and airlines, then that is the best we can do sometimes.

sorry that i did not like kimche but i do love beebimpop!


:)

asiana pilot
6th Sep 2001, 00:46
stator vane...

I've just come home and I was very suprised to see so many posts.

I think I know who you are and I believe we were so glad to have you here with Asiana Ailines.

I wish we could have more american pilots who have excellent skilled and understanding pilot like you.

I wish you the best and hope to fly with you again soon.

Sorry that you didn't like kimchi.
Why don't I buy kalbi next time when you come.
:) :)

Bokomoko
6th Sep 2001, 01:08
benedictus,
Hey buddy, you and your Korean partners used more than once "failed in a final check" or "problem with a check pilot".
Could you tell me why you think that every pilot that doesn't like Asiana or KAL has failed a final check or had any problem with a check airman? Are you admitting that checks are not enough clear and honest and as result foreign pilots hate Koreans?
I think you need to search for more details in your airline environment and you will be able to understand the real reason. Please, open your mind.
Give me a break!

yellow dust
6th Sep 2001, 23:40
For Benedictus. Tried the webpage you mentioned but it is all in Korean so I can't use it. Don't speak Korean, although I wish I did, and I admire the fact that you guys read and speak English as well as you do. On foreign pilot salaries I would like to offer the following and ask that you comment. My intention is to change your mind, so please read it without angst.

If Asiana needs a B744 captain they have two options. One is to employ a foreigner, and they will have to give him (they will not employ her) about a month training, including paying his salary for that time. The training will be minimal, since the foreigner already has the rating and the experience for the job, and has been screened by the agency. Maybe Asiana in fact has a longer training period, but they do not need it. One month for a couple of sims and some route training should be enough. The cost will be a month's salary and some sim.

Or else they can upgrade a local pilot. That would be the best course, and is in the best interest of the company, the pilots and the country. It is the normal way to do it, and I am sure Asiana will do this if it can. And so they should. Alright so far? not upsetting you too much?

But maybe they cannot do it because of expansion, new airplanes, new routes and so on, or maybe there are not enough local pilots available or ready for this course of action. I am sure that they would not do this if it was not necessary. If you disagree, then that is your right.

So they decide to upgrade a local, how much will that cost? They get a 767 captain and give him a course on the 744. It will take a few months, during which time his salary must be paid and he will not be productive. He will need a lot of route training compared to the foreigner. The 767 captain will need to be replaced, perhaps by a 737 captain. He also will need training and time. The 737 captain will need to be replaced, more time and training, perhaps by a First Officer from the 744. Good for him of course, but again more training and time, and he will need to be replaced by the FOs below him, from the 767, 737 and eventually from a school boy at the bottom of the pile.

All normal, of course, happens all the time, usually with training going on all the time. Pardon me for telling the rest of you how to suck eggs.

But you must be able to see the attraction to the airline for employing a foreigner, especially if they need time to build up the training of the locals and buy time before the local can take his rightful place. Or if the locals are all employed productively and not ready for the upgrades. Upgrades in Asian airlines are way faster than in the western airlines in any case, with pilots spending only 18 months on a type before being moved on. Nobody is really experienced, and the standards are low for this reason as much as any other. It does not make sense to move a pilot just because a slot is opened up, unless everybody is qualified. Without the foreigner, maybe the expansion will not take place, or the new route will not be taken up. This will deny some locals promotion, or jobs. So mindless rejection of the foreigner will reduce job opportunities for the locals. Why then go that route? That is the question a lot of us have and a reply would be appreciated.

And the cost to the company for the ongoing employment of the foreigner is also of interest. The foreigner gets a salary. His agent keeps a percentage, but that is all he gets. The local gets overtime (After 70 hours, while the foreigner needs to fly 100 hours or more to get overtime-different rules), the local gets bonuses, 13th month salary, retirement benefits paid on his behalf, medical (the foreigner is fired if he breaks an arm), school expenses, interest free loans for housing, cars etc, and when he retires the company will pay him for another 20 or more years at half pay. Every year or so he gets a free vacation, all expenses paid including hotel for two weeks. His family included. None of this goes to the foreigner, who also has to live in a foreign country away from his family (his choice).

My point is that the bean counters must be putting pressure on the company to employ only foreigners, since they would save the most money in training and salary that way. Luckily for Benedictus, this does not happen.

All of us agree that Asiana and Korean should be for Koreans, and the aim of the companies is to achieve that. In order to do that, they need help for a period of time. Why not accept this help without the aggro, so all of us benefit, especially you?

Waiting for your reply...

fullforward
8th Sep 2001, 10:27
Stator Vane,

I also had some friends with Asiana some years ago. Believe me, the professional environment was much more fair and, say, friendly and reasonable than today's.

Benedictus,

Please re-read Caulfield 4 September post.
And take into consideration that the biggest problem, as far as it involves qualified and serious professionals lifes is that there are not any valid and really serious evalutation criteria within Asiana. I say again: there are a lot of below average qualified pilots that just passed the checks and a lot of top quality airmen that were injustifiabily failed.
This is jokingly regarded as a "lottery" among even the korean pilots.
There are NO FAIR AND CONSISTENT evaluation criteria at all.
This is simply because South Korea's civil aviation policies are far behind on what is in practice in the developed world. A lot of posts on this thread already pointed out the causes.
This leads to lack of professional respect, ultimately.
People take chances on moving around the world on the belief of joining a serious professional commitment, but take into a mess, actually. A grossly U N F A I R system.
It is unacceptable that a country with so many impressive achievements leave Aviation be so bad managed like that!
For instance, Training Centers, despite efforts of some competent professionals get mediocre results. Usually they put retired korean captains or military to teach (?) to a full class of foreigners with a so bad English that they just laugh! The poor man usually when do not understand a question, limit himself to give the whole explanation again, like a tape recorder...
This is the same with simulator instructors.
For God sake, Aviation is a VERY serious matter! Let's do it correctly.
Get more foreign instructors if locals are unable to learn a good English.

And Jesus, how dare a korean check pilot, with a little more than 5,000 hours fail captains with more than 15,000 hr, with impeccable records, good training performance, with LOTS to teach, for some minor mistake?? (One of this checkpilots actually forgot his side window open on HIS training...)
And SEVERAL excellent pilots and good gentleman were failed into a so UNFAIR manner.People that could be a pride for ANY good airline in the world have as their captain.
At the same time, there are some foreigners with poor simulator performance, poor enroute training records, but...passed the check!! I know some of them that are recognized below average pilots very happy flying both in Asiana and KAL.
It seems that PERSONAL impressions, rather than technical ones plays a significant role in korean checkpilots, generally. Something related to their psyque or military roots, whatever (remember about all that shouting an even beating...)
But the main concerns goes into what Caulfield brilliantly exposed on his post: korean pilots performance goes well as far as autopilots are working and there are not necessary big diversions out of SOPs scope. If everything is fine, they usually performs fine. But at a sign of any abnormality, even some more dense clouds, things can go havoc fastly. Some friends that are flying for Asiana and KAL told me that several korean pilots get really wet hands upon any minor disturbance. This is related to improper training techniques and lack of experience, ultimately.
So why being so unfair and biased toward foreigners?

The good an gentle korean people should be more informed about how their public air transportation is being managed, as well as world institutions like ICAO, IFALPA and FAA, among others.

And, finally, Benedictus, as an American native, I still do not understand why there are still such an anti-America histeria in South Korea. If there was not for America intervention, South Korea would never even exist, rather it would probably be a giant rice crop, together with North. I do not want to insult, but think about it!

My sugestion to improve system's quality: a better attitude towards foreign pilots, a more friendly, CRM oriented professional environment. More investments in training quality; more consistent, technical and fair evaluation system, with even foreign captains as checkpilots, why not? More emphasis in experience: say at least 5,000 hr time on aircraft, to begin captain training on 737, for instance. Upgrade to widebodies not before at least 5 years command on narrow body, as happens with ALL airlines worth this qualification in world.

Obviously, all these measures would be time and money consuming and certainly will be very unpleasant, but it seems that there are no alternatives.

Otherwise, korean air carriers will be making headlines again and this would not please any of us.

Balthazar
8th Sep 2001, 22:12
I'm not a part of the Korean Aviation scene, however I do fly there regularly.

Benedictus, I admire you tenacity and understand that English is not your first language. Please understand that I am not hostile towards you (I don't know you personally, so I can't be), but I must take issue with a few things you said.

Firstly, CULTURE.

Koreans are as chauvenistic as any country in the world. In fact, I would suggest that there cultural self esteem is almost aggressive. I see it as a product of many things, and well outside the scope of this discussion, but knowing the Koreans as I do, to say that "judging their national airline culturally is discrimination" is extremely naive. All airlines have a national culture and Korean's is one that has crashed a significant number of times and resents foreigners.

The fact that union members are in jail for trying to improve workplace conditions is evidence that the system is not safety oriented. I would think that you should direct some of your anger and obvious enthusiasm towards an "almost" authoritarian government, rather than foreigners. Expats always get paid higher than locals, in every country. If it is true that your company augments your wage with allowances to make up the difference, then I think you should resent the expats even less.

Secondly, the FAA.

Based on what I said above I can understand your hostility towards a foreign agency determining your future. All I can say is, what do you suggest?

I don't wish to sound overly aggressive, but where there is smoke there is fire. I respect Benedictus, and hope that you can change the system. The (aviation) world will be a better place if you start changing the nonsense in Korea, rather than being wholly reactive to criticism. I believe you are the future of KOrea, but you must break the shackles.

fullforward
9th Sep 2001, 03:13
Balthazar,

Congratulations for the excellent post!

smiths
9th Sep 2001, 06:10
Fullforward:

If it wasn't because of you Yanks, there is one Korea today. :D

P.S. The Koreans hate the Japanese, too. Don't feel left out.

[ 09 September 2001: Message edited by: smiths ]

fullforward
9th Sep 2001, 08:16
Smiths,

Just bear in mind that they hate the japs for a justifiable reason, at least...

Rgds