View Full Version : money money money


tommymac_16
29th May 2008, 22:09
hi
everyone is talking about doing the intergrated ATPL etc for 75000k, which is fair enough but i was wondering how everyone is paying for it??

thanks:ok:



AlphaMale
29th May 2008, 23:14
Good question. And I still can't understand how young people at your age even get ther hands on this amount of cash ... and probably scarier still why they would spend 75k+ on training at 18 years old?

This has been asked a few times mind and the answer is that HSBC will lend you 50k if you are selected for the OAA Integrated course. I think you can get funds if you go via FTE in Jerez and if you are selected for CTC works like a sponsorship as 99% of their graduates will get a job with an airline after completing the course and the airline will pay your loan off for you (like a bond) I believe.

Some students have loans taken out and use their parents house as security.

What surprises me most is how confident these young people are. Taking out a huge loan to gamble on a possible dream job?!? If you were a 35 year old accountant earning a good wage and fancied a career change then I can see why the integrated route looks like a good option ... but an 18 year old? :uhoh:

I'll be taking minimum risk and going modular, in this credit climate taking a 45k/50k gamble is a big enough risk for me.

I think you can/could take out up to 25k unsecured for your flight training but that may have changed now.

BerksFlyer
29th May 2008, 23:28
AM,

The interesting thing is that it's usually the youngsters who are going for integrated courses whereas the more financially sound 35 year old carreer changer tends to go modular.

Of course there are exceptions, but that seems to be how it goes.

As to the confidence, I'm sure a lot leave training not knowing what they're in for if they haven't got into an airline through recommendation.

nich-av
30th May 2008, 01:12
The answer to your question is simple: huge loans that they don't know how to repay...

Before enrolling a flight school, it will show to you, the prospective student, sheets showing 6 digit pilot wages.
What they willingly omit to tell you is that you won't get to the 6 digits before 1 decade after training and that you won't even be able to cover living expenses with your starter salary (without even speaking of a potential need to fund TR). :ugh:

If you think about it, it's insane.

A 75K program's actual cost rarely exceeds one third of its sales value.

So actually, all these people are genuinely filling the already deep pockets of the FTO's owners....
It's their choice, no one will stop them.

Prophead
30th May 2008, 08:49
Is it confidence or ignorance.

I cant help thinking the big schools are exploiting the youngsters getting these huge loans. You can get the same qualifications alot cheaper yet people dont and i dont know whether this is down to the schools marketing, impatience or a total lack of ability to manage their own training program.

121ace
30th May 2008, 09:03
Luckily most of us youngsters are still living with our parents. So unlike some of the older students we have no overheads or family responsibilities. It only makes sense to go the integrated route. I thankfully am lucky enough to have my parents pay for training :ok:

heli_port
30th May 2008, 09:31
Luckily most of us youngsters are still living with our parents. So unlike some of the older students we have no overheads or family responsibilities. It only makes sense to go the integrated route. I thankfully am lucky enough to have my parents pay for training :ok:

I would agree with you to go the integrated route however my dear boy one hopes you get a job and are able to repay the loan otherwise your parents might lose that family home in which case you will have allot of overheads and headaches.. ah well i'm sure it will never happen and certainly not in the present climate :}

JugglingSpence
30th May 2008, 10:16
I've been looking into this as well and have been left wandering the same thing.

It seems once you are in the R/H seat then repaying won't be a problem but the idea of not being able to get into that seat doesn't bear thinking about if your Mum and Dad's house is at stake. I would hate to have to ask to borrow 1k per month for the next 7 years!

I thought about it long and hard and then realised that if I can go modular and fund my training while I'm working and come out with an (f)ATPL and no (or little) debt then I will be in a great position. It may take a bit longer and it doubt I will have much spare cash for a few years but it will mean that I won't be under any financial pressure to get a flying job at the end.

If I get 50k on a scratch card though I would be straight down to the schools in a flash though! Borrowing the money just seems like a huge gamble at the moment.

MIKECR
30th May 2008, 10:27
121ace,


Going the integrated route is certainly not the 'sensible' route to follow just now. You people need to waken up and realise whats happeing around you. Airlines are going bust just now - Silverjet have just gone to the wall, BMI are stopping recruitment, EZY arent taking FO's(unless you pay 35k for TR and buy line hours, no garauntee of a job at the end), EZY are also speaking off redundancies, The Thomas Cooks etc are all amalgamating, Ryanair are grounding aircraft later this year, and this is only the start of it! Experienced pilots with 100's of jet hours will flood the job markets for the next few years. Where on earth do you think you''ll get a job with a frozen 'integrated' atpl and no experience?? Buy a Type rating and then buy line hours?? All your going to have is 100k of debt im afarid. Thats repayments off a 1000 quid a month for many years!! Do your parents actually know what theyre investing all this money into??

x933
30th May 2008, 11:33
*Cynic Alert - 23yrs old but firm grip on reality and even firmer one on his wallet*

I'm with MikeCR on this one. Anyone applying to somewhere like Oxford/FTE for an integrated course with no firm offer at the end must be stark raving *bonkers*. Do something sensible! Go into aviation management! Work in an office, make some money, then if your company does go bust then A) you probably saw it coming more than the pilots and didn't find yourself out of a job with a 60k loan bearing down on you B) you make links and discover more operators than you ever thought possible, which helps when you go modular and want a job.

What could possibly go wrong.

BerksFlyer
30th May 2008, 12:29
It only makes sense to go the integrated route

How might that be?

Is it confidence or ignorance.

I'm pretty sure it is ignorance. You've got to wonder if some of the people going to the big FTOs even know that there are other ways of training.

Exploitation for sure.

Prophead
30th May 2008, 12:56
The argument about being a known quantity doesnt wash with me either.

Its ok if you are the top of your class and get a recommendation but what if your not recommended? The only 'Known Quantity' then is that your not the best pilot. Is that worth paying 's extra for:confused:

Re-Heat
30th May 2008, 13:30
Maybe their parents saw the statistics of how many people hold fATPLs, how many are employed, and the employment statistics of integrated courses, only to make the obvious conclusion...regardless of the number of those who have succeeded through the other route.

If one can afford the best bet for their personal situation, there is no need to begrudge one taking that option. It is the same licence after all.

RTN11
30th May 2008, 13:45
By working for a few years, and with help from my parents, my loan should only total around 10k (modular route).

I don't think I could stomach taking a 50k loan with no guarentee of a job at the end. This way, it's unsecured, so worst case senario I'm bankrupt at 23.

heli_port
30th May 2008, 15:01
this thread is dangerously close to becoming the dreaded integrated v modular thread :)

The fact is that you have to chose the method of training that not only you can afford but one which suits you. For me the OAA product is the best and hence why i am going there ;)

Re-Heat
30th May 2008, 15:05
Yes, quite true - it would be helpful to answer the OP's question if replies stepped back to simply giving information on:

- Training course chosen
- Cost (and currency of cost)
- % and /$/ borrowed (in local currency borrowed)
- % and /$/ given by family
- % and /$/ from savings / equity release from house sale etc

Expensive thing to do, and considerations for

- Living costs
- Travel
- Family's living costs

must all be made as appropriate.

bajadj
30th May 2008, 15:13
good, in my opinion and sensible too.

Although I'd probably give it 6 months tops rather than a year before getting that instructors rating.

MIKECR
30th May 2008, 15:29
Put1992,

I wouldnt criticise your plan at all. Thats exactly what i did. My frozen atpl cost me the grand total of 30k. Over the last 12 months of applications I was offered 3 interviews, including Ryanair. I turned it down due to the deal on offer and i went for the other 2 job interviews. Im now sitting in 2 hold pools, hopefuly getting a start with one of them very soon. Both jobs on offer have bonded type ratings, i wont have to fork out a penny. Airline flying for 30k and who says modular isnt the way to go! So hey, why bother listening to me, what do i know about integrated being the only sensible option!:ugh:

SpamCanDriver
30th May 2008, 15:56
Luckily most of us youngsters are still living with our parents. So unlike some of the older students we have no overheads or family responsibilities. It only makes sense to go the integrated route. I thankfully am lucky enough to have my parents pay for training

I cant believe most people still think that the integrated course is superior :ugh:. I mean I did my training at oxford modular on the same planes, same instructors and got the same licence as the integrated courses. The only difference was we came out with more hours and cost us a hell of a lot less money!!! :}

And as far as the Airlines go the only one that cares about integrated or modular is BA and only they care if your applying as a cadet!
I have to agree that the modular route in this current climate offers far less risk unless ofcourse you sponged all the money off your parents! :yuk:

If I was starting at the moment I would definately hang fire for around a year to see what happens!
With Silverjet going under today its hardly looking very rosey at the moment ! Which I can personally attest to having recently left the smiley airline/second choice only to lose my job with Oasis Hong Kong, Luckily for me managed to get my butt back in the R/H seat of a 767. I have to say Im worried about the future at the moment let alone if I had a shiny new FATPL and 75000 debt from my integrated course

just my 2pence worth!

UAV689
30th May 2008, 19:21
another aspect in my mind as well is pride.

I am currently working 7 days a week, 5 in an office on my fall back career, 2 in a warehouse at the weekend and studing every night when i get home.

When people finish their atpl they can be pround of their achievement as for sure integrated or modular its tough hard work. But I am quite sure I am able to hang my head a little higher knowing that I have sweated and worked and sweated a bit more to get where I have and be proud to tell my kids how I got there. Rather than sponging of my parents or getting in debt risking my own future by getting loans up to the eyeballs.

Get real folks - work for it, nothing in life should be giving to you on a plate.

nich-av
30th May 2008, 19:23
I have to agree that the modular route in this current climate offers far less risk unless ofcourse you sponged all the money off your parents!


I think that modular offers far less risk in any climate because though you may be able to sponge your parents to pay for the integrated course, you may still need to sponge alot more out of them for hour building, a TR and hours on type... certainly so if you come up with comments like: "It only makes sense to go the integrated route."
If I had an airline, guys like this would be my last choice.

Integrated? ok, but only if cheaper than modular.
Why should integrated be priced higher anyway when it gives you less hours, less flexibility, less instruction?

It's the JAA's fault.
There's no real need for differenciated training methods in this industry, just the same way it's of no use to have FAA part 61 and part 141 if part 141 is priced higher than 61 while being introduced in an aim to reduce cost by reducing required hours through a more stringent training process!!

Integrated was introduced in an aim to reduce the cost of training compared to modular just in the same way. Unfortunately it has not been used as such but I wonder whether EASA that is replacing the JAA will just sit aorund and do nothing about it.

Thumbs up UAV689, good luck! keep working hard and you'll get there!

geordiejet
30th May 2008, 19:29
UAV - Im exactly the same. I was 100% self sponsored - not a penny has been leant to me from family, or left to me.

I worked my ass off through Uni and for a few years since for the money, and I feel a sense of achievement that most spongers gambling with their parents deeds will ever feel.

I love the 17/18 year olds who come on here proclaiming that Integrated is THE only way to be a pilot. Modular students are scum, and airlines never hire them. When they haven't worked a day in their life! Make me chuckle sometimes.

I wonder if they direct their parents to prune? Or just show them the glossy brochures, fancy websites and let them take along to 'open days'. Honestly, I think some FTO sales people are just dodgey salesmen (the type who would sell their own Grandmother for a quick buck) who could sell coals to Newcastle.:ugh:

Reality check, please.

Prophead
30th May 2008, 21:45
What we need is a few more airlines who recognise the commitment, focus and time/money management skills shown by modular students who get their fATPL whilst holding down jobs supporting families etc over the integrated guys who have their hands held through every stage by the FTO.

I only recently found out that the Oxford students do their PPL's & Hour building in Florida. After paying all that money!!! :sad:

PJUUAA
30th May 2008, 22:35
SCD,

This current climate that the industry is in.... Is it because of fuel prices or a general feel?

I recently visited cabair who were pleased to state that the current employment opportunities are improving all the time and job prospects are rosy....
A marketing ploy I'm sure but should people be put off by the current climate? Is there evidence of a slowdown?

x933
30th May 2008, 22:45
As someone cited earlier on - yes, the market is rosy. If you don't live in Europe or America. The middle east is booming...

Euromanx and Silverjet both gone bust, amoungst other US carriers. Take over talks are rife. Petrol prices are going through the roof and there's no signs of a turn around. What more evidence do you need?

Integrated, modular, whatever. Now is *not* the time to be starting professional flight training.

nich-av
30th May 2008, 23:46
Euromanx and Silverjet both gone bust, amoungst other US carriers.


For the precision, Silverjet is a UK carrier flying Atlantic.


As someone cited earlier on - yes, the market is rosy. If you don't live in Europe or America. The middle east is booming...



Well, I think Europe will be part of the Middle East boom.
Middle East carriers are hiring tons of experienced European pilots
= these pilots need to be replaced
= new pilot job vacancies at European airlines

Though not very relevant and decisive, oil dropped 5% since last week and was pretty constant this week. This might discourage many oil speculators to trade for the quick buck ... and ultimately might see the oil tumble.

SpamCanDriver
31st May 2008, 01:30
PJUUAA

No I dont think its just the high fuel prices thats causing the current downturn, I thinks it more to do with people having less money to spend nowadays with higher mortgages, bills and that which yes is related to oil prices.
So flights will be getting more expensive while people will have less disposable income.
Although surprisingly people are still booking their holidays at the moment as it seems they are not willing to give up their week in the sun every year!
I think the low cost carriers might feel a bit of a pinch in the winter as less people are going to fly somewhere just because it was only 5 return etc.
The only place I can see the industry going places at the moment is in the Middle east while they are raking it in. But I think all of these jobs will be filled by high time guys as they get made redundant or have T&C's cut in europe and the US.
But hey Im just a line pilot and thats just my opinion and I dont pretend to be an expert otherwise Id demand a much higher wage:sad:

Whirlygig
31st May 2008, 08:57
Some of us are old enough to remember when mortgage rates went up to over 15% in the late eighties!!! That's probably the best time and economy to compare the climate with!

Cheers

Whirls

Wee Weasley Welshman
31st May 2008, 09:12
15% on a 3.5 times multiple of Husbands real basic salary with 10% deposit was painful. But not as painful as 5.0 times multiple of Joint overstated salary on a 125% Northern Rock SVR mortgage at 7.4%....

This will be an early 1990's style house price crash, recession and airline bankruptcy era.

No doubt about it.

WWW

Whirlygig
31st May 2008, 09:28
WWW, you're absolutely right!!


15% on a 3.5 times multiple of Husbands real basic salary with 10% deposit....

That was MY situation and, because I remember it, I can't believe that people have ever saddled themselves with THIS situation - but they did and do!

as 5.0 times multiple of Joint overstated salary on a 125% Northern Rock SVR mortgage at 7.4%....



But, a lot of guys starting out now won't be aware of that recession and the real impact it made.

Cheers

Whirls

Nearly There
31st May 2008, 09:32
This will be an early 1990's style house price crash, recession and airline bankruptcy era.



Whilst we read about more property reposessions and the odd airline going under, there is still an upcoming market within the Bizjet world not just over in the east but here in western europe.
Plenty of aircraft on order for new start ups VLJs and bigger, also new UK cargo operations.

Its confusing all this doom and gloom whilst there are new companys starting as we speak!

helimutt
31st May 2008, 09:41
Who are all these new start up companies? Maybe they have been in planning stages for years, have just started up and now realise they aren't going to be able to survive with the present financial mess in the west.
Anyone who thinks there is no credit crunch or financial mess right now and for the short foreseeable future at least, is either ignorant of facts or just plain dumb. If you're that dumb should you be starting to spend a lot of money right now?


I can't wait for about 12 months time, when all these 'youngsters' , and I use the term loosely, will return here and post how successful they have been in passing all of the exams, tests/ interviews etc and getting that first RHS job. Good luck to them I say but the reality is, if you have a couple of parents prepared to give their 18yr old son a huge chunk of spare cash to do the course, then great! If not it's likely it'll probably end in tears.
What many of us, Whirls, WWW and other slightly 'older' ppruners, on here remember, is how things went pear shaped in the eighties/early nineties.
Those PROFESSIONAL PILOTS on this Rumour Network have only put across their views and recommendations from being in the industry and seeing how it works in cycles. Now is not really a good time to be spending huge amounts of cash in the hope that jobs will be plentiful. You can only tell people so many times I guess! :hmm:

Modular or Integrated doesnt matter when there are few jobs around. The reason being is those who are made redundant are more employable with their experience over those fresh out of 'school'.

Look at the offshore heli industry and the flow of fixed wing pilots in and out of it when times are good and bad.

Overall experience might just keep you in beer tokens. :ok:No experience very probably won't.:sad:


ps. I have no idea what it's like in the East. This is entirely how I see things from my point of view in the UK/Europe right now.

Nearly There
31st May 2008, 12:20
http://www.flyblink.com

http://www.janesaviation.co.uk/

http://www.flyjetbird.com/

http://www.skyjet.com/Skyjet/SkyjetCard.aspx
12-16 Lears boumd for the UK but have not heard anymore recently on this one.

http://www.flylea.com/other/mustang.htm
Not a new company but still has orders for more a/c

And there are many others ordering VLJs and bigger due to expansion within the market.
You are correct businesses dont start overnight and Im sure they have been in the planning stage for a while, credit crunch for some maybe, but others will be raking it in from hedge funds and other sources. Especially the types who fly in the luxury of private a/c

helimutt
31st May 2008, 14:00
WOW!!! Look at them all. All of those soon-to-be so successful companies, in the current climate. All to employ the hundreds of wannabes out there. I apologise. I didn't realise all was so rosy. I should get out more and stop watching CNN/BBC/FOX/SKY etc.:eek:

Just off to cancel my copy of the Financial Times. I've been reading the drivel and lies that they pedal for too long now. How can I have been conned so easily?




ps, that blink airline sounds fantastic. I might even go convert my Rotary licence for an (A) now and see if I can get a job. Think they'll accept me with couple thousand hours, but only 150 fixed wing?

Nearly There
31st May 2008, 14:06
No need to be sarcastic now, im just trying to keep things positive, my nature is glass half full.
Its just the ones I know of, not a be all and end all list, and an example of its not all doom and gloom:rolleyes:

I should get out more and stop watching CNN/BBC/FOX/SKY etc.:eek:


Maybe you should, we all no what the press are like for over doing things and scare tactics, I am not disagreeing with you, Whirls or WWW, just pointing out there is positives to.

Why did you have to respond in such a tone, some people honestly:ugh:

nich-av
31st May 2008, 14:34
Housing crash.... alright, I agree that we're seeing some strong evidence in housing markets in the UK and USA and to some smaller extent, in Europe. There's no need to bring evidence for every day for the past 60 days and we have understood what your point is :cool:

But does anyone pointing that out here really know why there's one at all instead of only talking about the consequences?
And knowing the cause, do they know what can bring change to that situation and when that change is likely to happen?

The US is in recession, the UK is in recession and the world is going down like the Titanic went down in the Caribbean Sea...
The US registered a growth in Q1 and so did the UK.

If you're flying for an airline, instead of giving real estate advise, what about giving some load factors? Have you seen any decrease? Are the summer destinations flying at anywhere less than 70% LF?

It is still unannounced but Ezy will open a new base in Brussels in April 2009 when the new LCC terminal is completed. I expect them to base at least 6 aircraft in a first phase, increasing to 10 aircraft within 2 years. Ryanair is basing another 7 aircraft in CRL over the next 4 years.
In the small country of Belgium alone, that will create about 200 new pilot jobs over the next 4 years.

Oil prices?
As long as Ryanair can sell tickets for 10, I'm not worried. Airlines don't make money if they don't fly.

helimutt
31st May 2008, 18:20
Nearly There, I meant no offense by my post above. I tend to post a certain way on pprune but people who know me will vouch for the fact i'm more of a p*ss taker than most sometimes;). I have reigned in the attitude, believe me. Just ask Heliport! :E
Read my posts on the other parts of this forum and you'll see i'm not as bad as I seem, all of the time and have actually gone out of my way to help people starting out. :ok:
I was completely self funded for all of my training. I started when there weren't many jobs about for helicopter pilots. I did it because I could and it's what I wanted to do and to hell with the naysayers even if a job was never going to materialise! I put my point of view across now because I spent 110k to get where I am now and it's not very far up the ladder, believe me. I was lucky that my other job was always in the background if I needed to go back. I could earn more doing that but it was lifestyle I was after. If I knew then what I know now, I wouldn't have started. I'd have waited, or at least I would have started a ppl, then some slow hour building, reading the books before actually studying for the exams. Give myself as much of a chance as possible in a very competetive market.
I was lucky in as much as my wife (must be nuts) supported what I was doing, knowing if I hadn't tried, it'd always be a 'I wonder what if...' question unanswered.




I know it shouldn't really all be doom and gloom but if we all posted the same thing, then we'd get no discussion.
If there are airlines starting up then I hope they do succeed. I just can't see it for a while.

ps, as a betting man, I dont think the 3rd runway at Heathrow will be approved either but what do I know?:D

Nearly There
1st Jun 2008, 16:37
Helimutt, thanks for that.
I like you wouldnt listen to the naysayers either, fortunately I had the funds to for my flight training, now Im glad I have done it, no debt (apart from the FIC) and eventually an airline job will come, maybe tomorrow maybe 2 years, who knows?
The mrs has been fully behind it (something to do with the uniform I think;)), and I to couldnt have lived with the nagging question of what if? especially if I where to be stuck in a job I hated, which would have been any trade or industry as all I have wanted to do is fly for a living.:ok:
Cheers
NT

ps wanted to do rotary to after spending a few years stuck in the arse end of chinooks and pumas;) just couldnt afford it. bloody expensive, and if I have to be tech somewhere then a beach with the hosties or an oil rig?;)

helimutt
1st Jun 2008, 17:38
Please don't rub it in. :{ Spending time with hosties or hairy arsed riggers? Let me think.


Oh well. We all have a cross to bear!

Good luck.

helimutt
1st Jun 2008, 21:20
Put1982, your age is showing i'm afraid.

Let me post the way you do:-

1/ you 'are' a youngster like it or not, and probably have very little knowledge of this whole industry. Come back and start your sarcasm after you've been in it 15 years. It's not likely you'll be anywhere near qualified before there may be changes in the industry anyway, never mind in the pointy end of a jet.

2/ clearly implying absolutely F8ck all. Unless you can't read. Where in that statement do I 'imply' that? Integrated or Modular really doesnt matter. If you get the qualifications, you can start to chase the jobs which don't exist right now.

3/ Some people have rich enough parents who will pay for their kids to train. Lucky them. I wouldn't pay for my son to train if he wanted to in the future. He could get a job and work for it. Prove that he is worthy. I make an educated guess here that your parents are paying for your training. ?:ooh:

Mr 1992, please re-read my post carefully. It is only advice and a point of view and only that. My advice is stop drinking the cider down the park with your hoodie mates and get a job and save up for your training. That's if you've passed your exams and finished school already.:ok:
Ya cheeky whipper snapper! ;)

daria-ox
1st Jun 2008, 21:38
Im starting my PPL after summer, it will cost me about 7K, my parents are paying 2K out of it, i've got a job to save up the rest of the money. Parents wouldn't pay it all for me as they said there wouldnt be much of a point, if they paid it all and I wouldnt show im worth it. they are gonna ghelp me financially to pay for the training as long as I will work and earn some money too.

& secondly.. to be honest, it wouldnt feel right if my parents would pay all of my training as they paid for their training when they were younger, they had to work hard.. and they want me to work as hard as i can is well..

it has its points, also it doesnt matter if you the integrated or modular way, what matters is that in the end you get the qualifications, maybe you will have to work a little bit harder when doing the modular ( thats what im gonna do) but an airline would prefer someone who worked twice as hard to get what they dreamed of, instead of going to one school and in one year finish all the training, that's just too easy.

You've got to show them you're worth it! :ok:

Whirlygig
1st Jun 2008, 22:14
Ya hoary vagrant!
C'mon Helimutt, you gotta admit, that's a good riposte!!! :ok: I can vouch for HM; he's has calmed down a lot but has certainly given a lot of good advice in the past. The rotary world is different with regards training (i.e. very few go through integrated training) and job market - employment prospects in rotary lags that of fixed wing.

However, he does make some very good points and you'd be well advised to at least take them on board if not agreeing with them.

Cheers

Whirls

helimutt
1st Jun 2008, 22:35
Yes Whirls, not bad eh? Now i'm worried.:eek: He calls me a hoary vagrant. :ouch:Maybe he knows me already? I feel as if I should go and have a wash and shave right now. Something no doubt Mr92 will do one day when he grows up.;);)

as for the '82'. Sorry, typo. I'm old you see and my eyesight isn't what it once was.

I wonder if any other chavs from my school are on pprune at the moment. Maybe we can all cause havoc on one of the threads! Talk about living on the wild side!

So you're a chav too?


Why is there so much emphasis on Modular/integrated??

Matthew, Matthew, Matthew. Calm down my friend. You're too young to be carrying all of that stress already.

AlphaMale
1st Jun 2008, 22:37
This thread is going two ways.

One is this way ... Growing evidence that the downturn is upon us.... (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=311832)

The other is this way ... Put1992's home page (http://www.barryboys.co.uk/mx/)

Put1992, the reason this thread started was due to a user wanting to know where you find 75k+ for your training.

Not everybody is a spoilt child, my father has a buck or two and could certainly help me get through my training but he wont. Nobody helped him get to the top and he feels better for it.

Being down and out with not a penny to your name will make you appreciate the days when you're worth a couple of quid and feel your on top of the world.

These so called youngsters with rich parents will only be happy when they'll be sitting in a shiny jet sipping fine wine at exotic destinations and have their friends call them Maverick.

Nobody can blame you for taking the money for your training. But if you have to work hard to raise that money and work 2 or 3 jobs, maybe work your way up the ladder (building hours) you'll look a better candidate at the interview. Far better than a 20 year old with no higher education/life experience and only ever kept down a part time job in McDonalds to keep his Saxo rolling on 19's. :ugh:

Good luck

Duffer2007
1st Jun 2008, 22:44
tell me i've no experience or whatever you want but what the hell are u guys so stuck up for... the guy makes an excellent point of how else is he supposed to pay for training, should he really go to uni and pay another 30000 on top of his training? I really dont like some ppls attitude on this site let alone the amount of negativity... Does noone any good!

Whirlygig
1st Jun 2008, 22:49
A fair point - so, how did I pay for my training?

Well, I came to it much later in life and, after a successions of lucrative redundancies and compromise agreements (through take overs and mergers), I got a PPL(H). I sold a house in an expensive area of the country, realised some capital and moved to one of the cheapest areas to pay for the CPL(H). Then sadly, my father will be paying for my FI/IR since I inherited his house. But oddly, I would rather he was still alive and I was wondering where to find the rest of the funds!

Cheers

Whirls

AlphaMale
1st Jun 2008, 23:04
Duffer, research this forum.

You have two options Intergated (75k) or Modular (45k).

You're 19 and I suspect you may have A levels, depending on how strong you want your back up plan to be decide whether a degree is the right option for you.

If you go integtated with a loan and some help from your parents expect a payment of 1,000 going out from your bank account every month for 5 years to pay back the 50k HSBC gave you.

You'll be paying this weather you get a Jet job or not. So now think of a job (should the airlines go bust) you can find that'll support you through everyday life i.e. food/water/roof etc and then pay a 1,000 bill ... I think you'll need to earn 14,960 pa just to pay your loan. Anything over that is yours (And Mr Browns).

So how strong is your back up plan? When the music stops ... will you have a seat? or is it your turn to step out of the game?

You run a huge risk in spending that money, especially when it's money you don't have! I can't afford to risk 75k and not get something back from it ... Luckily with the aid of my degree and very strong back up plan I can afford to chance 45k on an opportunity of a life time.

Many people think WWW's posts are very doom and gloom, what your forgetting is that he's a skipper for a big airline ... the people painting a rosy picture are people 'hoping' to be sitting in a Jet next year. Again you have a choice on who to take advise from.

Matt, you have some nice pictures on facebook on myspace by the way ;)

Duffer2007
1st Jun 2008, 23:15
Im starting my modular fATPL on the 16th June and plan to defer my college course for a year in case anything should happen. I agree yes, integrated is overrated and so im using the extra money to get myself onto the ryanair type rating in sweden, it seems this is the most 'guaranteed' route available at the moment. However, my parents are taking out a mortgage for me and i am by no means super rich, but I think this is the risk one has to take if its all they want to do, such as I am.

Ian

Whirlygig
1st Jun 2008, 23:21
but I think this is the risk one has to take if its all they want to do
Please bear in mind that it's your parents' risk - not yours and for that, you should be very grateful. The point of this, and other threads, is that there are more and more repossessions on houses now where the mortgage repayments cannot be met.

Cheers

Whirls

Duffer2007
1st Jun 2008, 23:24
i never said i wasn't grateful and it was them who said to me that they would pay, i wouldn't dream of asking... And I doubt they would take it out if there was any doubt of repayments..

AlphaMale
1st Jun 2008, 23:29
It's all I have ever wanted to do since my first flight on a 747 to Florida as a 6 year old ... 20 years ago.

But I didn't expect my parents to raise that cash for me, am I jealous? ... Yes, in a lot of ways I am. Should you succeed in getting into RYN you maybe a 22 year old FO loving your job, I spent my 20's wishing I was a FO while working in an office.

It's all about risk management. If you don't get into Ryan and have shelled out maybe 80k on training and 20k on a SSTR how are you going to pay back that 100k mortgage?

Better yet how will you afford to pay the 100k mortgage? A mortgage on your new home I suspect you'll want in your mid 20's? The car payments? Taking your loved one out for a meal on the weekend? ... and keeping your SEP/MEP/IR current?

Seems a lot to tackle should the bottom fall out from this industry? But if 3 A levels will get you a back up job paying 50k pa then I guess you have very little to worry about.

E.g. A CISCO certified IT Network engineer can expect a 45k salary more so if they are contracting, so not bad if that if your 'back up plan' and have the experience/certifications/qualifications to back it up. :8

Duffer2007
1st Jun 2008, 23:36
you quote my 'back up plan', i never gave you one, i said im defferring my course.. I appreciate your experience and thanks for the reply.

AlphaMale
2nd Jun 2008, 00:15
You quote my 'back up plan', i never gave you one, i said im defferring my course

I rest my case. :ugh:

You don't have a back up plan to pay off a 100k loan so to speak should the sh*t hit the fan. 700 a month for 30 years and you don't know where you'll find that cash?

Deferring your course in what may I ask? And if RYN don't pick you and no other airline pick you due to the credit crunch putting many pilots with thousands of hours out of a job (for you to compete with).

You then intend on enrolling on a course while paying somewhere between 700 / 1,500 a month in repayments on this risky chance?

Don't think I'm trying to put you off - I'm not. I just hope you've done the maths to figure out how you'll make the repayments?

helimutt
2nd Jun 2008, 08:36
It's not a young vs old thread, it's more of an older and wiser vs young and lot-to-learn thread.

I think it's great that peole follow their dreams. I did and look what happened. I managed to get out of a job I did for 17 years, take a 40% pay cut and now fly for a living. :ok:
I have to say there's nothing like an early shift, flying out over the north sea with 8/8 cloud cover below you and your doing 175kts+ with the sun just coming up in the distance. Auto pilot hooked up and a bacon and egg sandwich on it's way. :)

All the guys on here are saying, the ones with any experience of the industry at all, is be careful with that money. It's going to be harder and harder to fund the courses, no matter which way you go, due to credit crunch, cost of living increasing etc.

Don't rely on your parents if you can help it. The will want to retire and not be worried about the kids seriously in debt.
It's a massive amount of money with no guarantees of work.
I know a few people, very well qualified, who went through the whole course, ticked all of the boxes, did any job they could to try for that LHS. Unfortunately they never made it and gave up after a long while trying. it just got too costly to stay current.

Matthew, I really hope you succeed and it all turns out well for you. If you don't try, you'll never know. Just think about what the people in the industry are saying right now. You still have plenty of time on your hands so you're lucky. I look forward to the post you make in about 5 years telling us you got that job. :ok: