PPL prior to undertaking Integrated ATPL?

[350Z]

Ok so the Integrated courses cost a bomb but I was thinking it may be a good idea to obtain a PPL (through OFT- any thoughts?) before committing to an Integrated course?

To date I have only had a 1hr trial flight, which I found amazing fun, and I'm fairly sure it's something I can pick up and enjoy as a career. I'm primarily interested in an aviation career due to the high earning potential and environment (i.e not stuck in an office working 9-5!) and coming from a massive petrol head flying made driving seem boring!

Would it be sensible to make sure flying is the career for me before attending an integrated FTO? I'm thinking it will also give me a little head start with regards to the training also which could relieve some of the pressure. End of the day a PPL is pocket change in comparison to an Integrated ATPL course!

Please no modular recommendations but any other thoughts, comments etc appreciated.

Cheers :ok:

[mattkcraven]

Hi 350Z,

It all depends on how soon you want to start an integrated course.Obviously doing some further flight training is helpful with both any integrated course assessments as well seeing whether you enjoy/ have the basic ability to fly.

Im off to NZ with CTC shortly and have had a PPL for 4 years. The PPL has been brilliant fun and helped massively with the interview stage for CTC (proving my determination etc), but quite simply its down to you and your current situation and isnt particularly neccessary

[350Z]

Hi Matt, thanks for your comments! I think it will put me in good stead for integrated trainging- I went for OAA assessment and they asked if I had flying experience, interestingly everyone else there did!

I'm in no real rush to begin training, considering the current economic climate, however my parents are keen for me to start as I am currently unemployed! Congrats and good luck with your training with CTC!

Decisions decisions! Any opinions on where best to undertake PPL?

[time4parties]

I am currently undertaking my PPL training at British Airways flying club in High Wycombe. Would recommend it 100%. Great instructors and aircraft that are very highly maintained. Do not assume that joining the flying club will get you a job at BA like most people do though! I am also planning on going to do an intergrated course next year and was told by a few friends that doing the PPL first was a good option to see if you enjoy it and more importantly are any good at it! Hope that helps. :)

[PPRuNeUser0165]

hello,
Im currently at oxford doing the intergrated, i have 30 hours on a PA28, has helped me great amount with knowing simple things like circuits and what happens when you put in a stage of flap. Questions are sometimes based as if you already have knowledge of flying, for example some of the guys in my class have no experience and found it hard to grasp what the questions was asking. Basicly it definetly wouldnt hurt to do some hours but maybe nt a full ppl, theories you get tought may not be the way oxford want to teach you and so you are left having to relearn, that goes for both planning and mapping flights, to your training in good year!
Good luck with it all, dont hesitate to message me if you have any questions, just finishing phase 2, jaas next week, then...... PHOENIX!!
Safe flying!

[ali1986]

i thought u could n't do an integrated course if you already had a PPL?

[MIKECR]

Definately a good idea to get some hours done before signing up for a flying career. You might hate it in the end. It is however going to cost another 5 or 6k to get a ppl, on top of the 70 - 80k for an inetgrated course.

[starrzo]

In the same position myself, will likely begin my PPL next week then apply to OAA or Jerez after. Regarding the extra 5 or 6K on top of the integrated cost, most schools offer a discount of around £5k for PPL holders as far as I am aware.

[bajadj]

starrzo.... definitely NO discount at oxford for PPL holders on the integrated course, a few years back i think they gave you a 10 hours dispensation, but now you get nowt i'm afraid.

Also TommyG is correct, I know of a couple of former APP students who had PPL's and had to unlearn some "bad" habits as it wasn't the oxford way, then relearn them again after what was then Scottsdale because the "bad" habits was exactly how their airlines wanted them to fly in the first place!

I'm also finishing phase 2 jaa's next week but no Phoenix for me!!! the glamour of wolverhampton beckons!!!!!! at least i'll be rid of oxford though.

[D O Guerrero]

I did a PPL some years before starting the integrated course at Oxford. I'd say it helped quite a bit. However the cost of it will add to what is already a very expensive course. So I would recommend just doing enough lessons at a flying club to go solo. That way you can see if you really like it.
Unbelievably there are people who start integrated training without ever having been in a light aircraft. I know more than one person who was chucked off the course. Everyone I know who has failed the course failed in the very early pre-solo stage. So if you can get that squared away before you commit to the ATPL, I'd really recommend it.

[PPRuNeUser0165]

bajadj!!!
That must be the beckoning call of a washed up dj from the modular course!!!! LOL only joking fella, next time i see you in the corridoor i ll give you a kick or somethink!! Hows the bristol getting on!!! Upps, i just swore!!!

[Mikehotel152]

I seem to recall that doing the Integrated course gives you an fATPL but no PPL, so you can't even fly for fun once you have spent all that money! Crazy, if true. :eek:

But, if you've got £75,000 for an Integrated course, why not get a £7,000 PPL beforehand? It's only money....:E

But don't fret because although when you finish the course you will have far fewer hours Total Time than a modular student, your FTO will presumably get you a job with one of its 'client airlines', so your relative lack of flying experience will be no hindrance...and you can then fly for fun in your spare time! :ok:

[Whirlygig]

I thought an ATPL gave you licence privileges of a PPL.

Cheers

Whirls

[MIKECR]

Mikehotel152,

When finished his frozen ATPL he will have a CPL. Thats is the licence. It supersedes a PPL. Attached to the CPL, he will have 'ratings' ie SEP or MEP or MEIR. He can excersise the privilages of flight in any aircraft he desires, as long as the 'ratings' for those aircraft are current.

When i passed my CPL/IR last year, my PPL became redundant. My ratings however(SEP and MEP) are current.

He can fly for fun no problem at all

[bajadj]

Whirls, you're right, it does, although bizarrely enough the integrated oxford course doesn't give you an SEP rating.

Tommy, the bristol is doing doing my bloody head in, and gen nav is still a complete mystery to me!! just doing ops now and I really really don't care how many bloody fire extinguishers i have!!! I can remember that a fire axe is used to control unruly passengers from phase one though!

[eikido]

Don't start anything until you've read this thread:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=311832

Your going to hate your lives if you cannot handle the truth:)

[350Z]

Thanks for the input guys! I think I'm gonna take the advice and have a few lessons so that I am near pre solo phase! It's all good fun!

Eikido- yes yes yes the world is coming to an end I know but to be honest I have no other options- I was on the verge of moving to London and taking a job in the city but it's just not for me. It's flight training or sitting at home doing nothing really lol. To be honest I would rather try something and fail than try nothing and succeed so therefore I'm gonna be stubborn and just go all out for it!

[eikido]

I love your tone :ok:
As long as your aware of it and not stubborn, i think you will end up fine. With or without a pilot job :ok::ok::ok:

Keep it up!

PS. I'm doing the same as you, but i'm not starting this year.

Eikido

[MIKECR]

Im with you Eikido, haing been applying for jobs for over year now, i know exactly what the job markets like. And its getting worse, RAPIDLY!!! Anyone thinking of doing ATPL training over the next 2 or 3 years needs to have their head examined!!

[nich-av]

I don't quite follow your logic, I personally think that there's a missing link in your reasoning triangle.

Why start all over again when all you need is to complete IR, CPL and ATPL theory?

You are "hedging" yourself against the bad economic climate.
That hedging is going to cost you an additional 7K + the timeframe you'll lose while having fun with your PPL... conclusion: you're a bad hedger.

If you have money, why don't you head to integrated straight away or wait until the sun shines again?

Decision-making skills, capacity of analysis and intuition... the most required skills in a cockpit... and in life in general!

[350Z]

:ok: cheers mate. Everything's difficult and there's always more people than there are jobs- the grad job sector's very difficult as well and I should know- been there done that!

Mike, keep trying and hopefully something will happen for you! How about FI?

[MIKECR]

Nah, im sitting in 2 very reputable turboprop hold pools just now thanks very much, no point in doing an FI. The TP jobs will probably pay me more than any 'first jet job' too.

I was offered Ryanair interview too but declined to attend. I aint paying to work!

[nich-av]

And its getting worse, RAPIDLY!!!


Very true and I don't see any better time to start, though that is a bit the reverse of what you want to prove.

SN for instance are taking any pilots with instruction experience and many ab-initio pilots coming out of Sabena Flight Academy.

Too many Airbus (and even some shorthaul, regional) captains are leaving to Asian (HU) and Middle-East carriers (EK) and SN are shifting captains from the RJ fleet to the A319/A333 fleet. As a result, they need to upgrade first officers in the RJ fleet and hire ab-initio's to replace them.
They are so desperate that they need to hire leased crews at tremendously high cost.

I see that happening at many other carriers: increasing numbers of LCC captains looking for a better lifestyle and more prestige moving to EK, EY, etc...

I don't dispute that European airlines, especially the British ones will struggle... worse, this situation will make it even harder for them to survice as they'll need to spend more money into hiring and rating/upgrading training, pay-rises, etc... if they want to resist the Eastwards pilots exodus... but I doubt they can do anyting to stop it:

If you're a 15000 hour captain flying for Ryanair and you get an offer from EK to be based in sunny Dubai, living in nice crew homes while earning twice as much, a driver to take you to work, flying around B777's and later A350xwb or maybe even A380... would you say no?

[350Z]

haha good work- pssshh to Ryanair! I'd be happy flying TP! Nice one