2010 deadline for expat pilots to leave INDIA

[Left Wing]

NEW DELHI: With growing instances of Indian students not getting jobs even after spending lakhs on commercial pilot licences (CPL), the government has turned 'swadeshi' to save their interests. The aviation ministry has laid down that an Indian carrier can use a foreign pilot "up to a time limit of four years or July 31, 2010, whichever is earlier."

What's more, giving an extension to a foreign pilot for continued employment with an Indian carrier beyond this period has also been made tougher as the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) will have to refer any such case to the ministry.

"While sending proposals for continued utilization of foreign pilots, airlines should justify their demand for new aircraft can't be fulfilled from the present Indian market despite their efforts in recruiting and training of Indian pilots," DGCA's deputy DG A K Sharan has conveyed to all airlines.

The government started cracking on airlines' policy of hiring expat pilots even as Indian CPL holders find it hard to get a break in the loss-ridden airline industry.

Moreover, Indian pilots employed with airlines also started complaining their promotion avenues were suffering as airlines found it cheaper to hire foreign senior pilots due to a weak Rupee.

Of the 5,500-odd pilots operating with Indian carriers, nearly 1,000 are expats. What's more, the number of foreign co-pilots is also growing as airlines find it easier to hire a type-rated co-pilot (one already trained to fly a Boeing 737 or Airbus 320) as he or she can start operating from day one.

"We don't want to stymie airlines' growth, but just ensure Indian students; interests are protected. Airlines will need some time to have an the adequate number of pilots trained for new planes," said a senior DGCA official.

Think it is a great move, every govt in the world takes care of their own first. The Sr. Expat Pilots have been Monumental in setting up long haul ops on 777 & 330/340 for the airlines in India, while expat TRI & TRE’s and ops professionals will still be needed for some time to come. 2010 is a good time frame to airlines to have enough of local manpower

[ghora86286]

Does this mean that my chances of getting into a cadet pilot program have increased?:confused:

Man this really is good news

[Left Wing]

NO NO and NO !....it means airlines will now rush and grab expat pilots on fixed contracts until 2010.....not many airlines are runnig cadet programs as there are surplus CPL pilots already in the system.

The surplus will only keep on growing as there are close to 200 more student pilots worldwide who will return to India and look for job in the near term...

[ghora86286]

Well then what is your advice for an aspiring pilot like me. All I ever wanted to do in life was be a pilot. Things look a bit grim don't they.

[fatbus]

For a new FO things are good right now, but wait for the downturn/ shutdown of some of the LCC's, if you get caught in that can you handle it, if so go for it. the 2010 restriction will apply more for type rated Capt's

[kk pilot]

If India doesn't want to suffer similar treatment as Indonesia from the US and Europe, they had better make sure that expats stick around past 2010. I understand your frustrations but the simple fact is, International Captains and experienced FO's aren't made in 2 years.

[NZ X man]

As a short time in country Pilot, from what I observed in the DGCA office in Delhi on Friday, probably any Friday, the stream of expat pilots is not decreasing, pilots from all over the place, high time, experienced crew are being hired to fill the need for just that, high time , experienced crew. Talk to a captain who has a 200 hour co-pilot, and that will answer your questions about the need for these pilots beyond 2010.
As well stated by KK, two years does not make, or offer the type of experience needed to fly in a demanding aviation environement, be it airline or corporate. :)

[Aeronotix]

In India money talks and airline managements have plenty. This deadline will surely be extended, just as all laws are tilted in airlines favour; the recent FDTL issue being amended to suit airlines' commercial considerations is yet another example. So its very predictable that after appeasing fresh Indian CPL holders and airline pilots that DGCA has their interest at heart by making such statements, it will succumb to airline pressures.

They all play ball here and civil aviation is no different. Sick but true.

Aeronotix:sad:

[powerstall]

an add to that, the hard lessons learned by some operators when they had a few inexperienced FDC on board....

hard to swallow but it's true, if you owned the business wouldn't you want to spend a lot more money for acquiring highly experienced expat FDC's rather than lose the whole aircraft to less experienced local FDC's?

...remember what happened to the Bae ATP from a cargo operator? and a few brand spanking new ATR's from an airline? who we're the crews operating them? plain fact is that they we're not expats.

it's just plain economics...

just my two cents worth :ok:

[Nevrekar]

I had said in the past that expats will have an opportunity for the next 3-5 years, and after that it would diminish. That was back in 2007, and so the July 31, 2010 mark makes it around 3 years. I am sure there will be some extentions provided.

However, with oil prices on the rise, ticket prices on the rise, decreased loads, airlines in India will have to slow growth or shrink, consolidate etc.
When that happens, the need for expats will also be diminished.

Whether one likes it or not, this is the reality of flying a foreign contract.
Make the best of it. By the time 2010 comes around, it it likely that the US market will be on the upswing. Plus the Middle-East, China and other Asian carriers will have plently of openings.

The problem with articles like the one published is that it might cause many who are currently here to start looking right away in order to get a head start. Can't say I blame them. You have to do what is right for your situation.

[Kingfisher320]

If you think the airlines are going to keep paying you, your current salary after we leave...you better think twice. Indian pilots will go back to what they were making before the expats came to India....$Peanuts$

Enjoy...

[Kingfisher320]

Indian airlines have been late in making payments for jet fuel, reported India's Economic Times, citing a top executive with Indian Oil Corp. Kingfisher Airlines and Jet Airways are among several carriers "delaying payments in spite of seeking a very comfortable line of credit and huge discounts," the IOC executive told the paper. Kingfisher reportedly built up "arrears" on a line of credit earlier this year and was forced to switch to a "cash and carry" model of payment in which it pays immediately for fuel it needs. It paid down its debt and has transferred to other fuel providers except at airports where only IOC operates, according to the report. Jet still reportedly owes IOC for fuel it has purchased via a line of credit.

TOO much taxes on passengers. Fly 30 minutes..hold for 45 minutes..cant make money...when you're turning extra 2.5T every flight. High fuel and the government is killing these airlines here. Poor managment and scheduling, they are totally qlueless. Slowing economy. THINGS AREN'T THAT GREAT HERE ALSO...YOU WILL SEE MORE EXPATS LEAVING SOONER THEN LATER...? I think this ship is taking water fast.

[divinesoul]

hard to swallow but it's true, if you owned the business wouldn't you want to spend a lot more money for acquiring highly experienced expat FDC's rather than lose the whole aircraft to less experienced local FDC's?

...remember what happened to the Bae ATP from a cargo operator? and a few brand spanking new ATR's from an airline? who we're the crews operating them? plain fact is that they we're not expats.


Now there is no GA scene in India atleast thats what i think (maybe wrong).

Does antbody know what the GA scene is like in India.

What options does a person have if he/she doesnt want to join airlines.


Anybody know about the GA scene in India.


Would be nice to know.

Cheers.

[perceval]

GA is not all that big in India but definitely growing . Fractionnal start ups , turboprop bizs ...I have two friend who got jobs there on TP .
Apparently they require a fair level of experience (especially for DEC).Check the JP airline fleet book for a listing of the companies out there .
Otherwise , if you really want to fly and nothing is going on where you are , try your luck abroad . I have seen the occasionnal Indian cit. coming through East Africa for a few years , then going home with some hours and good turbine / Multi time .

[leftseatview]

What did happen to that Bae ATP of the new cargo operation?(i think it was called first flight or some such name)
i agree that a lot of the new indian FOs appear to be under the delusion that they are ready for the left seat,and airlines will simply get rid of the all the expats to make way for them.
While some of them will make the grade at say 2500 hrs,the trng set up is not just going to upgrade everyone because they have got an ATPL and completed the hours.
So just when they last expat departs will depend to a large extent on the ground realities regarding safety issues which most trng depts are quite aware of.

[Sky Dancer]

The points mentioned by many of your posts are well said , but there are a few points that have been overlooked by many of you.Would welcome your views on the following points.

Why should an Indian carrier hire a foreign Captain/ FO in preference to an Indian national when :

a) Some of the Captains hired barely have 500 hrs on type with much of their flying logged on a different type of aircraft ( read turboprop ).They might as well hire Indian nationals who do not have a type rating but have similar experience ( eg ex Air Force , GA ) as a Transition Captain ..

b) Some of the expat Co Pilots do not even have a type rating and pay for one in order to get a job.Although some of them claim to have 1000 hrs plus of total time , it is highly suspect as some of them dont really show that kind of experience level while on the job.You might as well give the job to an Indian national who has 200 hrs or so...

[malq]

One BIG reason for hiring ex-pats anywhere, for anything, not just pilots - is that as guest workers they seldom have legal protection or a compelling reason to stay back in the host country, and fight it out, in case of shall we say "incorrect" behaviour on the part of the employers.

With airplanes being grounded and flights going light, whats next, will obviously be a reduction in the number of people. And the best way out, we all know it, will be obvious.

Sad, but true.

[doftana]

Hi Everyone, and appy new year to all of you.
Please, make it clear to me - I understood no more expats in India after 2010?

[vagabond 47]

You Can Have My Job If You Can Do It.............had Enough; Wife Complains I Smell Like A Curry Pot When I Get Home, Missing My Own Culture And Honesty Is Most Times Necessary In This World But Vacant From This Culture.......................but>>i Do Agree....india For The Indians.


Happy New Year.

[TopTup]

You (the DGCA) want to replace tried, proven and (very) experinced Cmdrs and FOs with national pilots without so much as a minute amount of 'expereince" that the foreigners bring to the table. One of the first rules of any business is to buy your brains when needed.

As I understand it AI are recruiting FOs with 250 hrs TT for the RH seat of a 777.

"When I was a boy" I was still flying a ratty old pice of cr@p scaring the sh!t out of myself and learning from my mistakes in order to gain the EXPERIENCE needed to apply for a job on a bigger aircraft & to bring to the table experience that I have now, many, many years on. Have seen Cmdrs and FOs who cannot fly an aircraft (777) straight and level on downwind with AP off and FD off, let alone even plan a 3:1 approach. Reason? NO EXPERIENCE & a self indulged belief (airline culture) that this job / position is your RIGHT beyond all safety and common sense reasons. Bugger the souls you may be responsible for behind you! All I write is borne from 1st hand experience and hence why I chose to leave - personal choice. (Among many other professional reasons: smoking in the cockpit, cockpit door left unlocked, a culture of not upholding basic SOPs....)

So, you lower the bar, sacrifice safety for the will of a passport and nationality. When the national pilot (Capts & FO's) match or beat the experience of the foreigners, sure take them IMMEDIATLEY. In the mean time you are left with a NECESSAY evil I suppose.

In other countries it is a privelidge to fly a jet. In India it is seen as your right.:= Let's hope for no more circling approaches and stalling the aircraft on the base turn, eh? (Aviation 101) Although I think the outlook is grim.

SkyDancer: In response to your post.....

The national Cmdrs at AI come to the 777 with ZERO hours experience on type (ie staright off the A310 or 747) just as is the process at many other airlines. A Capt is not a Capt by means of aircraft manipulation but from "Command Decision Making", aircraft / crew management and demonstrated [all-round] knowledge. Anyway, the FO should be just as good as the Capt at flying the beast.

The foreign FO's at AI have a MINIMUM of 2500 hrs TT. Most have over 4000, and some with over 10,000 (I think 1 I met with approx 16000?). All have an ATPL / ATP with over 500 hrs COMMAND of a multi engine aircraft. All have many years of airline experience behind them, as well as held positions as a TRI/TRE. Some with tertiary qualifications. They paid for the endorsement as that is how it is in aviation in their respective countries, very much to my deep regret for them. They EARNT the job and didn't DEMAND it be GIVEN to them. Jet vs turboprop? HA! A 777 (for example) is a damn sight easier to fly and land than a turboprop around the 5700 kg mark that probably doesn't have an autopilot..... More to undertsand, apprecaiate and different methodology in flying a 777 but aerodynamics are quite tried, tested and still apply.

Respect others' credentials as you demand yours to be respected.

[outofhereoyibo]

Bravo!!!!!!:d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d

[HVYMETLDRIVERWANNABE]

I've been training Indian students in Miami for almost a year now... and they certainly are in a tough spot to find jobs back home. Personally I'd love to go to India and pick up a job flying an A320 but I'm not typed so that probably won't happen. Half of me is a bit jealous because it cuts me out of the loop, but on the other hand it does at least guarantee some of my students and ex students jobs. Like said previously, every government should take care of their own first. American pilots would become very bitter and spiteful if the American carriers were hiring type rated Indians, Chinese, Latins, Europeans etc. over paying for type ratings for upgrading American CFI's and FOs.

That all said I don't buy into this "by 2010" completely. Thats a goal, but the bad economy won't last forever. Worldwide, just like in America there will be a larger class of retiring pilots bringing up demand for pilots again. And from what I've seen in the past if they're short of pilots in America, they're even more desperate overseas and with the the potential aviation growth in India I don't think they'll be free of Expat pilots anytime soon. Aviation in America has already peaked, but in India/China/SE Asia they're still a lot of room to grow! :ok:

[vaibhav]

how long does it take to convert your foriegn ICAO licence to DGCA india ?

how many jobless CPL + MECIR indians are there at the given moment ?

how many expat pilots are there at the moment in india ?

i am a student pilot will have my CPL in 3 months time and then i am thinking wat to do go back to india with MECIR or stay in australia with an INSTRUCTOR RATING .... ?

should i pay and get a A320 / B737 type rating ?

should i get 100 hours multi PIC Private hire after my MECIR ? and then look for a job ?

what to do i really dont know !!!!!!!!

[Left Wing]

stay in australia with an INSTRUCTOR RATING .... work and fly as Inst until you get your ATPL....for the next 2-3 yrs there no jobs in India for CPL's....DO NOT PAY FOR TYPE RATING..until you get a letter of employment from an airline....

[ATPMBA]

10,000's of IT people are unemployed in the States because of Indians on H1B Visa program. Time to send them home. I wouild expect safety to suffer in India

[Cruiseclimb]

If you are an Indian CPL, flight instructing and gaining the experience you need will be critical for being prepared to sit in the right seat of a large transport jet. Being qualified should be more important than the politics of where your passport is issued. If you don't gain this experience, you will never have the respect of your fellow pilots.