JAA Instrument Rating or FAA IR and Conversion to JAA

[cjuk28]

hi there this has probably been hammered already.
I am wanting to further my flying career and am now 35years old, which is the best route to takewith regards the IR.
I am currently in the USA doing my hour building
As funds are limited (not supported by mummy and daddy) should i go for the FAA IR and then convert it back in the UK or should i take the entire JAA courseback Iin the UK

Is the FAA IR converted to JAA license looked upon as inferior to the JAA IR by the airlines or is this a myth. In my opinion a pass is a pass.
But i would like any info from you more senior guys as to wether or not this myth about the FAA ir is true as i dont want to waste money on a useless product 6 months down the line.
Regards all
CJ

[MIKECR]

Financially its minimum 10 hours conversion plus caa skills test fee and aircraft hire on the day.

Thats 10 hours at 300(ish) quid an hour plus 700 quid test fee and 2 - 3 hours multi hire for test day.

Assuming a first time pass in min hours, thats still roughly 5 grand to convert FAA to JAA.

Factor in the extra hour or 2, plus a partial pass(just in case!) thats another grand or so.

When id did my JAA IR here in the uk, there were at least 3, if not 4 students converting from FAA at the same FTO as me. One managed to convert in 15 hours, the rest were slightly more.

[leeds 65]

first things first FAA IR to JAA being frowned upon is a myth.

I went down the conversion route and would not recommend it.

reasons:
1. FAA IR is lot different and way easier.use of gps is allowed!and they have approved gps approaches(just follow that magenta).Also ndb are being phased out and going to be extinct over there soon(thank god!).this was terrible though as flying in jaa land is hard not knowing what an ndb is and never flown in europe before!
2.You dont save that much as my conversion ended up being 30ish hours.
3.the conversion to JAA 15 hour minimum that the european flight schools market applies to EVERYONE,ie experinced pilots with years of airline experience to gob****es of cadets with f all hours.its a steep learning curve.EVERYBODY goes beyond 15 hours.

Just do full JAA:ok:

[mason]

Hi i went the route that your talking about FAA IR to JAA IR and if
i had the choice i wouldnt do it again i would just do the IR in the uk in a good school youll end up paying more in the end.good luck

[flybenji]

Hi cj

I am not a big poster on here and I am certainly not a senior guy but I am some one who has recently converted a FAA IR to CAA IR and I would never advise anyone to go down this route. If your are looking to fly in the UK then please do the full IR course here. I was wrongly advised to do it this way and I wish that I had been given this advice when I was weighing up my options.

The minimum converted hours is 10 in the sim and 5 in the plane but by the time you have done each of the routes, been over the beacon for a few hours, come to terms with NDB's (which they don't use much in the states) allowed for a bad day and then hired the plane for test your realistically looking at 15 hours plus in the plane. I did mine in 10 hours sim and 20 hours plane and it was the worst, most stressful 2 hours of my life. I had a friend doing it at the same time that had 2000 hours in a dash and he took just 2 hours less than me and said that it was the hardest thing he had ever done, I can't imagine that many people do it in minimum time. I can assure you that converting will save you no money, by the time that you have paid for the FAA IR, the conversion here with the approach fee's and test fee, you will be looking at a cost close maybe more to the full cost of the IR here so you might as well get the experience flying in the UK.

I hope that this has helped and that you dont make the same mistake I did.

[virginpilot1087]

All down to the individual pilot, I did FAA IR and then converted it in Spain to a JAA at Aerodynamics Malaga and did it on 15hours minimun no problem, I put the 15hour minimum down to they actuly have a fully well structured course there that works very very well, plus no cfi's raping students for exrta hours so they really do give there best to get you upto speed for the test

conversion cost including flights from UK accomidation all flying and test fee's and money for food and other incidentals cost me £3800

as for airlines frowning on it,,,, I think thats a myth put out by people who paid for intergrated course's and are trying to convince themselfs that its the only way to the airlines. (sure someone will want to stone me to death for that comment on here)

I did faa cpl ir in florida, jaa exams in uk, cpl conversion in greece, and ir conversion in spain, and am now flying 737.

if its down to the $ work harder and save some money.

[IRISHPILOT]

As mentioned, it is most definitely a myth. Nothing wrong with having experience in different parts of the world.

I personally found the FAA checkride harder than the JAA one, however that was possibly due to a lax examiner here and very good training beforehand (was done with an airline here).

As virginpilot says, you can shop around and you will see that a full JAA IR is little more than 10000 Euros (outside the UK). - HOWEVER, as you are in the US anyway, you may consider doing the rating, then converting, keeping in mind that there are few ME aircraft under EUR200 per hour here and a lot cheaper in the US.

Many JAA countries have no test fee and partial passes are pretty much unheard of. And approach fees are no more than a couple of Euros. - Having said that, I still find it more enjoyable and still cheaper to fly in the US. I regret not having continued in the US beyond PPL ME/IR at the time.

Just my 2 cents worth. IP

[BigGrecian]

t, I did FAA IR and then converted it in Spain to a JAA at Aerodynamics Malaga

That's because you did it in Spain.

Having instructed students on their commercial following their IR in Spain, I would strongly recommend against this. :bored:

[boogie-nicey]

It was mentioned that they have a well structured course but from my own past experience completing courses on time and on budget within aviation training is near on impossible. Therefore how can people claim that this is achievable, is the Aerodynamics course that well strucrured that it gets students through in 20 or so hours? I would also like to compare it to my own training which was in aircraft only (expensive) and how many days are spent in classroom, simulators and then the actual aircraft.

It took me 2 months to do my training, is the weather that good they complete in 2 weeks? If so I'm impressed.

[OneIn60rule]

I had to laugh when someone mentioned they did their IR in Spain.

Obviously the biggest joke I've ever had the experience of listening to.
At a flying school I was attending they had a few that supposedly got their IR in Spain. *finished it rather quickly, you wonder how*

These characters were not familiar with a few types of approaches nor able to keep everything in check.

So if you want to save money, go to the USA get the FAA IR and convert it in Spain. This does not mean you will go through the same hardship we had to endure when converting our FAA IR to JAA IR in the UK.


To sum it up, just do a FULL IR in the UK.

[boogie-nicey]

Onein60rule, is there really any need for you take this demeaning view of your fellow peers? Spain no doubt has comparable accident statistics to that of any European country. Perhaps they elect to do things differently due to their flight environment just like the USA does. Both are industrialised nations and know a thing or two about processes and procedures throughout their economies so why would they knowingly implement weak flight standards into their respective airspaces. Perhaps the UK is just over the top and is still living in the dark ages. How do you think all those other nations cope with their flight training graduates, well they most certainly don't come to the UK for their pilots.

Sure the training in the UK (where I have also received training) is excellent but I also respect the efforts and endeavours of others rather than to offer baseless ridicule. There's no need for that people have differing reasons and arguments for doing things but it's not always a simple case of ranking which is best and which isn't.

I agree doing the IR in the UK is a very good option but it doesn't automatically relegate everyone else as substandard. Please try to understand the reasoning behind my comments.

:O

[corsair]

I'm afraid boogie it is not baseless ridicule or an anglo-centric superiority complex. I've come across case where pilots with CPL's lacked some of the most basic flying skills. Do you climb with the stall warning blaring? Do you think any CPL would? Other issues like inability to hold height and heading under the hood or visually form someone supposedly with an IR. Log book discrepancies. Ratings issued apparently before the minimum hourly requirment was met, for example. I could go on. That's only stuff I personally know about.

This wouldn't all Spanish schools but certain organisations. The fact that it's possible points to a flaw in the system.

If poor pilots are being turned out, then eventually something bad will happen. Simple as that. It doesn't mean virginpilot is a bad pilot. Indeed I suspect he is an excellent pilot. It's just that he may have had an easier time of it than he would have at another organisation.

[Emrts330]

Corsair you must get grip. 50% of airlines are located in USA. 25% of the worlds airplanes is located in South California. Piper and Cessna aircraft are only a couple of many, many airplanes created by Americans and the British and all EU use to train pilots. I bet you used these airplanes to train. British think american instrument is less. This is jealoussy or like Virginpilot say.

I did my instrument training in america and converted my licenses in Spain in 90's. Now I fly for Emirates.

The UK is not world standard. I guarantee your mentality will get you kick in the butte and no friends.

America is a great country. They make world aviation possible and lead aviation if you like it or not. I like these people and I thank america to

Virginpilot I agree and support every thing you write

[spacecadet]

As it has been said above, do you think that the FAA instrument rating is inferior than the JAA rating?

What is involved in the rating? Flying under a hood, tracking VOR's, flying various approaches, holding, etc, etc.

I seriously wonder how the pilots from US Airways, American, Northwest, etc, can fly IFR across the pond and fly an approach into a British airport on their FAA ratings! All over the world thousands of PROFESSIONAL pilots fly with FAA licences & I don't think that they are inferior!

I personally think that in America that the ground exams are ridiculously easy but the flight test is hard. I think the opposite in JAA land!

[OneIn60rule]

That's all fine.

What I'm stating is that a JAA IR done in the UK is difficult and certainly not a ride in the park like the Spanish IR.

I'll even tell you what I got to heard second hand from my friend. He finished his IR in 2-3 months. His friend did his IR with an infamous school in Spain, this chap finished it in 3 weeks. According to him: IT was a big JOKE of a test.

Would you like some more examples of how ridiculous their IR test is?


No it's all fine, all these guys end up with Ryan air anyway and there's someone to teach them how to really fly so it's not a factor.


I've got an FAA IR and a JAA IR and know what each involves. I do not say the american system is worse but I am saying it's a real shame to see someone pay 1/3 of the price do a 60% less work to get through (IN SPAIN) and still end up with the SAME LICENCE/RATING that WE DO *UK living, breathing*.

That my dears is my gripe with it.

1/60

[An Artificial Member]

1/60

I did my IR with one of those 'infamous' Spanish schools, and breezed through my IR renewal 12 months later here in the UK, after doing very little IFR flying, :ok:

Two of my fellow students have since landed airline jobs on the proverbial shiny jet, not with Ryanair I might add, not that it is of any realavance.

A good as your 'UK' IR is, it hasn't got you an airline job............. Perhaps you should of got the Spanish one.

AM

[OneIn60rule]

Well hurrah you breezed through a renewal.
Hence the Spanish IR must be the right way forward. Right?

Carry on laughing.



-1/60

[zapoi67]

Some more questions :

1) What about converting Canadian IR ?
2) What about converting South African IR ? (I read that South Africa adopted the JAA syllabus... though not being a JAA state)
3) What about converting in Greece (Egnatia) ?

[boogie-nicey]

Whoa there chaps and chapesses ;) I was merely highlighting in abeit a subtle manner regarding onein60rule's comments. I didn't mean to kick off a "mine's bigger than yours" fight. Besides I thought the keywords were "UK" and "Spain" where on earth did the "USA" enter this, amusing :p

Come on we're all in it together and the USA, Spain, UK even Europe as a whole have all made contributions into the aviation pot over the last century so we've all done our bit. LIke any team effort it's never the individual that wins but the team itself. What we most certainly don't need are these unecessary and demeaning comments directed towards our peers. That serves little or no purpose and hardly endears oneself.

You can no doubt find every training 'combination' in any major airline from straight up integrated, modular, USA conversion, etc. This clearly demonstrates that all of these routes are permissable and worthy. Like every walk of life you'll come across those who had a long hard road to where they are today, others had it served to on silver tray whilst some were just down right lucky or simply 'connected'.

For the record I have also come across my fair share of duff pilots that seemingly graduated form the Homer Simpson school of flying. The only thing I could derive from it all was the fact that there's good and bad from every quarter.

[Andrew G20]

It is understandable that people would be defensive about the UK system, compared with alternatives, when it costs so much, but it is a shame that this defensiveness manifests itself as an attack on others who choose a different route.
Using examples of students who appear to be wildly incompetent is a poor way of trying to prove ones point. I have met many wildly incompetent students who were a result of a number of countries training systems.
Ultimately it is a personal decision which route you decide to take and each route has it's advantages and disadvantages, like anything in life.

boogie-nicey, if more people held your opinion then perhaps there would be less of this tiresome 'my license is better than yours' spiel.

[Airbus Girl]

I did my multi in 6 hours in the US, my FAA single IR in minimum hours in the US then came back to UK to do the multi IR. I did a total of 8 hours training in the aircraft and passed my IR despite flying a route I had never done before. I think people are very dismissive of the FAA system but it is a real hands-on actual scenario when you do the flight test, with things thrown at you, like they would be in real life, and if your handling skills are good and you can think on your feet then you will have no problem doing the FAA and the JAA ratings. But its not for everyone.

I did my FAA ratings first then converted to JAA and now fly an airliner.

[corsair]

Corsair you must get grip. 50% of airlines are located in USA. 25% of the worlds airplanes is located in South California.

Actually emrts330. I never said boo against America. In fact I favour the American way of training and completely agree with you. I actually did some training there and have no complaints. My target is my personal knowledge of the standard of pilot I personally have come across from certain flying outfits particularly one in Spain.

The point being that a good, well trained pilot will pass any flight test in any country. So passing an 'easy' flight test is irrelevant to good pilots. So those of you who did pass their test in Spain needn't get all huffy. No one is saying you're bad pilots. You would undoubtedly have passed the test anywhere. But 'easy' flight tests do allow people through who really need more training. This isn't fair on them either. Oninsixtyrule, BigGrecian and I have all have come across poorly trained pilots from certain schools who passed the IR flight tests in Spain. That sounds like a pattern to me not simply a prejudice.

It's all very well being politically correct about it but throwing up your hands and saying there's good and bad from every quarter. is to ignore the realities.

This is simply not a case of 'my licence is better than yours' to characterise it as such is to miss the point completely.

[boogie-nicey]

Great lets all be friends then :p With that nice little warm glow feeling inside. ;)

Come on lets knock this on the head now and move onto some other subject shall we. You've all made some good and worthy comments.

[benish]

I'd like to bring this topic back to life!

I have just completed the ATPL exams with Bristol, and I'm wanting to get on with the training.
I have not flown since late 2009 (due to getting the full 150hours needed and not having the time or money). I did my PPL with London aviation in Naples (as part of Multiflight's ab intio), which got me an FAA rating which I then converted to JAA after hour building.

Onto the CPL, my preferred route is to go out to EFT to do the JAA CPL as it works out slightly cheaper and the weather is far better at this time of year.
I contacted them earlier and they have let me know about the FAA IR CPL special which works out at around $22k. My original plan was to do my IR at multiflight.

With conversions and everything I have worked out that its going to cost around the same to go down the faa conversion route as it is to do the CPL over there and IR here, considering all is done in minimums.

I'd like a bit of advice to help me deliberate this.
Having hardly done any flying here would it be more beneficial to do the full lot here? Would I struggle when coming to the IR.
Does the fact that an FAA IR includes way more hours out balance the difficulty of the conversion?
What to do?!

[Gomrath]

I contacted them earlier and they have let me know about the FAA IR CPL special which works out at around $22k

Maybe I misunderstood your intentions but you seem to be thinking of a FAA CPL then convert? You say you have 150 hours? Are you aware that you require 250 hours for the FAA CPL - FAR 61.129 (unless you are considering a Part 141 course - but then it will be expensive).
Apologies if I got the wrong end of the stick.

[whistling turtle]

I did the FAA IR to JAA IR conversion and to be honest it all comes down to the individual as to whether it is something worth doing or not.

If for whatever reason be it work or pleasure that you want to have the ability to fly IFR in N reg aircraft as well as JAR land aircraft then go for it. Depending on the schools involved and your own aptitude for IFR operations for roughly the price of a full JAR IR course you could do an FAA IR and JAA IR conversion.
IF you just see getting an FAA IR and IR conversion to JAR as a means to save money then I would really think carefully. It's not a course of action suited to everyone.

I did a single engine FAA IR on glass in mid 09. For finance reasons I didn't do the conversion to a JAR multi IR untill last year.

I did the conversion in the UK on a round guage twin roughly a year after having passed the FAA single IR on glass. It was a reasonable step up from single engine to twin IFR ops and glass to analogue particularly after that time gap. Apart from that the main differences were NDB holds and the IFR ground planning which was a bit of a pain in the neck as the UK airspace system in relation to GA IFR operations is not nearly as user friendly as it is in the USA.

In the end I did about 17 hours in the FNPT II and 10 hours in the twin. My instructor for the conversion thought that I did very well and said that most people struggle with it and take longer. It is a bit awkward at times and at the end of the day you do two IR flight tests but on the other hand I have two IR's now and I am happy I did it the way that I did.

But some people don't really take to conversions and end up doing the whole JAR IFR course from scratch in the end. That did happen with another guy at the time and I have heard of it happening from other people too.

Weigh up the pros and cons and tread carefully. And if you do end up doing the conversion remember to have a good atitude, some people do have chips on their shoulder and biasis regarding FAA qualifications in Europe but working hard and having a good positive atitude will help negate that.

[jizzman]

I have an important question. I did my training in the US.

I have 25 SE instrument and 10h simulator from USA.
6h ME, 1h ME instrument from USA.

I converted my licenes in Sweden 5 months ago, and I only recieved 5h(4h inst) ME, and 4h in the simulator ME.

How is that possbile when you need 15h ME to convert from FAA CPL ME IR to JAA CPL ME IR? I never got 15h ME when I came back.

Is it up to every country to make their own rules about this+ UK have 15h, what do we have in Sweden? I am totally lost!

[zondaracer]

The JARs are not legislation but rather an agreement. Not all members of the JAA implement every JAR. I am not sure if Sweden follows the 15H conversion rule or not. Did you also do any time in a simulator?

[jizzman]

I did 4h in a simulator and flew 5h for real.

Thats it.

Now I wonder if I can do it in Sweden like that or not. I wonder if the requirment UK have is for every JAR country or is it up to every country do decide? Very thankfull if someone could answer.

[Cobalt]

The JARs actually say


An applicant for a JAR–FCL licence and IR, if applicable, already holding at least an equivalent licence issued in accordance with ICAO Annex 1 by a non-JAA State shall meet all the requirements of JAR–FCL, except that the requirements of course duration, number of lessons and specific training hours may be reduced. The Authority may be guided as to the credits to be granted on the basis of a recommendation from an appropriate training organisation.


In the UK, the CAA just issued the "15 hour" rules.

In Germany, an FTO has to conduct a formal assessment, write to the LBA with a proposed training programme and get it approved, and then do whatever it is the LBA says.

What other countries do is left to them.

Under EASA, this will change. I haven't found anyting about conversion yet (only validation, which only lasts for a single year) - anybody got a reference?

[jizzman]

Okey, so you mean its up to very countries CAA do decide how to deal with it, and every JAR country will accept it?

[Cobalt]

As long it is JAR (which is not much longer...) the answer is yes, but "all requirements except course duration" means all theory exams and the skill test, otherwise it is not JAR compliant. Once the rating is issued in accordance with JAR-FCL, you are done.

In practice, it will be very difficult to get this done in a "country of convenience", since "mix and match" with state of licence issue, exams, and training does not really work unless both CAAs have an agreement how to deal with that. The JAR system really is a system of reasonably standardised nationally issued licences with mutual recognition, not a true European system (and EASA does not change this much, only the rules are now set in stone centrally and MUSST BE OBEHD, BEECAUSS SSSEY HAFE WEHS TOO MEK YOU OBEH in Cologne)

[Bernardo.andr]

If you already have a JAA CPL + JAA MEP but only a FAA SE or ME IR you can do your conversion in here (IR(A) Conversion Training | IR(A) Conversion Courses | Conversion Training | English | Flugskóli | Tækniskólinn - Skóli atvinnulífsins (http://www.tskoli.is/flugskoli-islands/english/conversions/ira-conversion-course/)).

If you don't have a JAA CPL + JAA MEP you will have to take all 14 JAA ATPL Written Exams and do a JAA MEP or convert it from an FAA ME (I think).

Regards!