Any Police Helicopters used as Air Ambulances

[Skyhigh-Ulster]

Just do any UK Police Helicopters double up as Air Ambulances when not in use ?

[quichemech]

Joint Machines that are Dual Role, as in carry a Bobbie and Paramedic as crew that I am aware of are Wiltshire and Sussex, can't think of anyone else.

[Skyhigh-Ulster]

Thanks thats very interesting - the reason i ask is, my local police helicopter only flies on average 3hrs per day and i think this vital resource could be used to help others in need.

[vortexadminman]

your right Ulster man it is. wilts unit and sussex works very very well............probably why some Ambulance trusts somewhere:ugh: are trying to change it. You can always tell when something is value for money.. as some self serving self promoting **** will try and change it!!!!!!!.

[timex]

Most (if not all) Police A/C can carry out casevac, usually done after the AA finish for the night. As for the amount your helo flies a day do you know what fit it has? How much to fit all the specialist Med kit then find and train Paramedics? How much capacity does the A/C have? ISTR its a 135, Its not as simple as you seem to think.

[ppheli]

some Ambulance trusts somewhere are trying to change it

vortexadminman > that's because (in general) it's the Ambulance trusts that have the money, not the police, and thus the power to make such changes. Sussex Air Ambulance are putting £250K into the Sussex Police helicopter for example (source (http://www.sussexairambulance.co.uk/home/communitynews/115))

my local police helicopter only flies on average 3hrs per day

Skyhigh-Ulster > that's average, most police units are somewhere in the range 2-3½ hours a day average in the air, but that means nothing unless you take into account the on-call hours and the number of tasks per day. Remember that EMS tasks take the helicopter out for much longer periods of time - in many cases the helicopter lands and shuts down while the medics do their work in readying the patient for flight. Time when the Police maybe pacing up and down their Portacabin wanting their helicopter back. I know it does work in Wiltshire and Sussex, but their police usage is well below average (Wiltshire's helicopter averages a mere 1.7 hours a day - EMS included - on basis of it had flown only 5295 hours at Dec06 from delivery Jul98 (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=60&pagetype=65&appid=1&mode=detailnosummary&fullregmark=G-WPAS))

Here's a thought... In Devon, they have a population of 1.12M and two EMS helicopters, and are currently replacing one with a new EC135 bought for cash (http://www.daat.org/site/1/news.html?&nv_item=38). On that basis, Northern Ireland with a population of 1.74M could afford three helicopters, and London with a population of 7.5M could afford THIRTEEN helicopters. Bravo to Devon Air Ambulance for showing what can be done through hard work and successful fund-raising. Embarassing for London with their one helicopter, though, they always seem to appear in the press suggesting they are short of money. Short of organised fund-raising, more like....

[C.Korsky-Driva]

Those that believe that a heli can be dual-tasked are deluding themselves. Superficially it sounds like a good idea but the competing priorities are incompatible.

Imagine you spend 6 months setting up a big drugs bust, you 't'-up all the players and the chopper cover is vital to success (covering escape routes, covert observation and video surveillance as well as providing down-linked pictures to C & C. Then there is a motorway pile-up from hell and the whole job is blown because the dispatch protocols call the need for medical assistance from the chopper unit.

or..... the other way round

You are sitting on the ground in AA role awaiting the return of paramedic/doc with patient and the cops demand the chopper because they have a bank robbery in progress with possible hostages......

I could go on. Yes, it works after fashion but dual-rolling will only ever be a very very poor second.

Now.... if you want to be like the French who have a pool of public service helicopters ..... that's a different kettle of fish.

Dual Roll = THE WORST POSSIBLE COMPROMISE - dont do it!!!!!

CKD

:ugh:

[ShyTorque]

I agree, the two roles are, in the main, specialist and incompatible.
Would we expect to use a police car as an ambulance?
Who decides the operational priorities?

[Bodie3636]

I have done several night casevac jobs as a Police Pilot, as mentioned earlier in this thread, only when AA go off line. Normally attend these with only one observer so we have room for doc + medic + cas. Its not ideal but it does save lives.

[Skyhigh-Ulster]

Skyhigh-Ulster > that's average, most police units are somewhere in the range 2-3½ hours a day average in the air, but that means nothing unless you take into account the on-call hours


Well as a tax payer i don't think i'm getting value for money - maybe thats why the PSNI are refusing to answer a number of FOI requests.

[tbc]

SIKOARSKIE

On a scale of:

0 = I will buy shares in your company:ok:
to
10 = you should run for office:yuk:

I will give you an 11.:mad:

[timex]

Sky high.....it costs roughly £1200 per hour ISTR. £5000 a day not enough for you? You would also need to change your heli to one that can do both roles, therefore more costs.

[[email protected]]

Bring back 72 Sqn :)

[C.Korsky-Driva]

Bring back 72 Sqn ..... I should coco. := Within the year the entire public service fleet would be tied up with Crab bureaucracy and costs going off the clock. Whatever happens we need military involvement but we most definately do not need military leadership. The words 'piss-up' and 'brewery' spring to mind.

This does not mean that I don't rate the organisational skills of many miliary men and women - they can be mind-boggelling good - but the baggage they bring is not worth the pain. What we need is a National (Light/Medium) Helicopter Resource with a remit to support Police/Fire/Ambulance services and to augment the SARfleet. Economies of scale achieved by centralised maintenance and bulk purchase will allow every region to have access to appropriate equipment including FTDs/FFS.

I sometimes despair at the way each police force, each ambulance service and each fire service thinks that it is a good, morale-boosting philosophy to do-down the neighbouring forces and talk-up their own version of what's best for Joe-Public. So much energy and so many resources wasted with in-fighting and turf-wars. Roll on the day the Fire and Ambulance services become one, share their magnificent skills and abilities under one roof and get on with the job of serving the public.

A helicopter can do all of these tasks and the pilots likewise and if you want it done properly, on-time and on-cost ASK A CIVVY !!!

:ugh::ugh::ugh:

CKD


(I had a nightmare where I dreamt that 72 Sqn had a huge fleet of Public Service light twins and became so crabbified that they painted 5 of them Red and formed a display team....... am I going mad or what????)

[Bolk]

CKD

What we need is a National (Light/Medium) Helicopter Resource with a remit to support Police/Fire/Ambulance services and to augment the SARfleet.

:ok: The logistics of finance would be difficult and wrestling ownership of local a/c from local chief constables / execs would be even worse but that's no reason to shy away from the task. Just need a government with the b*lls to grasp the nettle!

I sometimes despair at the way each police force, each ambulance service and each fire service thinks that it is a good, morale-boosting philosophy to do-down the neighbouring forces and talk-up their own version of what's best for Joe-Public. So much energy and so many resources wasted with in-fighting and turf-wars.

:ok::D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[ShyTorque]

I concur.

They did it in Hong Kong in 1993 under British rule and it worked very well, still does under Chinese rule.

Unfortunately it takes money and as we know, the UK government know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

[whoateallthepies]

Sick Korsky
Those that believe that a heli can be dual-tasked are deluding themselves. Superficially it sounds like a good idea but the competing priorities are incompatible.

Been deluding themselves for a long time in Sussex. Funny old thing, there has never been a problem about "competing priorities". It's a system that works very well.

You slag "Dual-rolling" (sic) but you then advocate triple-roleing What we need is a National (Light/Medium) Helicopter Resource with a remit to support Police/Fire/Ambulance services

Make your mind up! http://i.1asphost.com/whoateallthepies/pie.jpg

[Bravo73]

I was down on the South Coast today and there was a bit on the local news about the Wiltshire Police/Air Ambulance.

Apparently the contract is up for renewal soon and the Chief Constable was being interviewed and said that without the £500kpa contribution from the Air Ambulance charity, they wouldn't be able to finance the aircraft on their own.

So if funds are really limited, maybe there is a place for these combined-roled aircraft?


(Unfortunately, I can't find an online version of the story and I'm not even sure if it was BBC or ITV. :{:O It should be on the local news again this evening though. South Today or Meridian, I guess.)

[Skyhigh-Ulster]

Interesting stuff - what does ISTR mean ? if its what i think then no there not.

[Bravo73]

what does ISTR mean ?

According to Googoo, the most likely candidates appear to be 'I seem to recall' or 'it stands to reason'. In this context, it will be the former.

[timex]

Skyhigh are you saying the PSNI A/C is not an EC135?

[C.Korsky-Driva]

Perhaps I should explain. If you have a pool of resources and you need one air ambulance and one Police machine then that's what you draw from the pool. If you need to use (one of) the standby machine because their is a major todo in your area then you get what you need. If you have a seasonal need in tourist areas then likewise.

If you ask a Turkey what he thinks about Christmas there's a fighting chance you can guess his reply. Therefore, based on the old addage of 50% of something is better than 100% of nothing then you can guess what Sussex boys will say if you asked them how good the service was. Now ask them if they could do more and do it better if they had two machines. Predictable I know but in view of your comments Mr Pie Man, I have to make the point. Believe me Men and Women Of Sussex, you don't know what you are missing doing it in this cheapskate way. Just publish your dispatch protocols then we can all have a good laugh. How far up the clinical priority list does an unconscious faller come compared with a hot pursuit of a much wanted ned who has just stabbed a copper.

Sorry about being so hard-nosed about this but nobody in this position should ever do anything other than confess that it comes a poor second to doing it properly. To do so would just perpetuate the myth than you can be good at two jobs with just one (compromised) resource.

:(

CKD

[whoateallthepies]

In a perfect world with unlimited funds yes, a "pool of resources" would be lovely.

However, this is the real world, Sussex are doing the real job with the resources they have to hand and the system works extremely well (in that part of the world).

By the way, Their first priority is "preservation of life" and you can take that any way you like. I presume you are laughing like a drain now?

I look forward to further waffle about Turkeys and 100% of nothing http://i.1asphost.com/whoateallthepies/pie.jpg

[C.Korsky-Driva]

Well therein lies the rub. If you were truly aiming at the preservation of life then you be carrying two medical personnel (sorry - a Bobby with his First Aid certificate wont be eligible even if he is good) and not a Bobby plus Paramedic.

I think you will find that it is generally recognised in the HEMS world that due to the difficulties of monitoring vital signs in flight and the multiple tasks involved, seriously ill/injured patients require TWO clinicians who have enough training and experience to justify whatever title they 'wear'.

SO you see you cannot hide behind the fact that your stated priority - "The preservation Of Life" is somewhat compromised.

As for wishing the impossible I should point out that we wished for Air Ambulances for 15 years and dreamt of a network covering all of UK. Well it took Cornwall to show the way and 20 years on we are nearly there. "Ah!" I hear you say, "But what was the government's role in all this?" Well you would have a point but a 'faint heart never won a fair maid'.

If somebody doesn't light the way then we will never get there - will we?

:ok:

CKD

[Helinut]

CK,

You can always improve performance by adding resources, but in the real world there will be a limit to what you can spend.

If we looked at a busy police helicopter unit, say covering a metropolitan area, it also has to make choices about how it deploys to tasks when 2 are offered up at the same time. There is nothing special in the combined HEMS/police unit about deployment decisions and priorities. That same met area could be covered by 2 police helicopters. This would reduce the number of times that conflicting tasks came up at the same time, but never entirely remove the possibility.

If you have a typical county police force that chooses not to provide enough funds for a police helicopter just for its own use, it has 2 choices:

- to combine ops with another service that operates in roughly the same area;
- to combine ops with another police force or forces in adjoining areas

You have ID'd some of the possible disadvantages of the former option. You ommitted one of its main advantages: that combined HEMS/police can operate during the night too.

However, there are significant disadvantages to the latter wide area pure police hele too. The main one relates to the increased distance and time that you will be away from tasks. Some police jobs are not time critical but lots of them are. Turning up 20 minutes later to a break in progress means that you probably wasted all the flying time. You did not fail to respond but the chances of getting a successful outcome was much reduced. The same applies to vehicle pursuits.

If you have 2 helicopters to cover 2 counties for police and HEMS, is it better to have a single police and a single HEMS helicopter covering BOTH counties or 2 combined police/HEMS helicopters covering both counties?

That is a real choice and IMHO an interesting question.

[Bravo73]

(Unfortunately, I can't find an online version of the story and I'm not even sure if it was BBC or ITV. :{:O It should be on the local news again this evening though. South Today or Meridian, I guess.)

Found it! It's currently on the Meridian News (http://www.meridiantv.co.uk/) homepage. Unfortunately, I can't link directly to the story.

[Whirlygig]

Not like you Bravs :ok:

Here_'tis! (http://www.itvlocal.com/meridian/news/?player=MER_News_15&void=191886)

Cheers

Whirls

[C.Korsky-Driva]

.......A minority of HEMS missions are truly life-saving but you never know that this is going to be the case until later. Crucially the difference between a successful outcome and an unsuccessful outcome is often the level of care the HEMS team can deliver and if you dilute this in any way - yes in ANY way - you risk the latter.

It is so tempting and so attractive to put these two roles in the same box but the reality is, I suggest, totally the opposite. It is the politicians convenient get-out. We can't really afford it but......... wallop! two for the price of one and Robert's your mother's brother ...... that will keep those do-gooding bunch of wingers off our backs.

We have a unique funding arrangement in the UK where the majority of HEMS are financed directly by the public through donations. Try asking for hand-outs for your local Constabulary Aviation Unit and see what joy you get. I suggest that it is the Cops who are up against it here so in effect somebody is doing a very good sales number on the folk of Sussex that results in their HEMS Op being second rate. I say again, ask the Sussex Ambulance Trust if they would like their own machine, assuming of course that the funds were available to support it.

One of the least understood ways in which the HEMS chopper makes the Ambulance Service more effective is its contribution to the logistical equation. If you sit in the control room day after day you can watch the random nature of the job. In no time flat you have no resources available and a serious RTA to deal with. Not only can the chopper cover your entire area but it can also help to move non-serious cases out of the system more quickly. In the more rural parts of the UK an ambulance can be out of the system for 4 or more hours dealing with a moderately serious patient's trip to a General Hospital. In the meantime the guy who has a heart attack snuffs it because HIS ambulance (the one covering his area) is away to the bright lights.

I could go on but I would bore you. As for night Ops well that could be solved overnight if we made all HEMS flights a part of 'Government Operations' and took them away from JAROPS 3. There is nothing special about Police Helicopters, they just have the benefit of the POM. Don't get me going on that one.......

:ugh:

CKD

[whoateallthepies]

Don't get me going on that one.......

God forbid. However, you really are very insulting towards the excellent service which the Sussex Police/Ambulance helicopter provides. To describe their HEMS op as second rate shows that you don't have a great deal of knowledge of that particular service. And I think you will find that the night cover in Sussex is something most other county ambulance services would be grateful for.

Yes, here we go again, "in a perfect world" blah, blah, blah.
I could go on but I would bore you.
I'm afraid that happened a long time ago. I'm sure it won't stop you from posting more poorly thought-out insults! http://i.1asphost.com/whoateallthepies/pie.jpg

[Bravo73]

Thanks, Whirls. I was in a rush, innit?! :O

[[email protected]]

Whoate - the whole of the air ambulance setup in UK is second rate - it has to be because it is day/VMC and needs to be night/IFR/NVG to provide what the public should get, ie 24/7 cover. Neither can the AA helicopters provide a patient transfer service for critical patients since the amount of kit and attendees requires bigger helos than the charities can afford.

Don't get me wrong, what they do, they do very well but we do not have a top flight service appropriate to an (allegedly) first-world country. You can blame whoever you like - the govt and the CAA would be first on my list but until everyone is pulling in the same direction and demanding the appropriate service we will continue to provide less than we should and end up having to compromise by combining assets which further degrades the service.

[Helinut]

I am not wanting to start an argument (?) but it seems as though CK's answer (supported by crab) is just throw more resources at it and it will be better. Whilst true, this is not much of a revelation. It also ignores the other beneficial ways that you might spend some of that same money, if you could devise an effective HEMS (or police ASU) system leaving a bit of surplus.

The health industry remains unconvinced of the benefit of HEMS anyway (especially in the UK). If there is any spare cash floating around under their control or influence, they will find other ways of spending it. A major initiative to spend lots more money will need some good evidence to justify it. In both the HEMS and police ASU world we have been very lazy about proving our value.

It is also only of limited use to say throw away the current rule book. For the foreseeable future, we have that set of rules (more or less) to operate by.

The current possible/recent upheaval in HEMS is about power politics and asserting train-set ownership rights and has little or nothing to do with effectiveness or efficiency unfortunately.

The peculiar route by which England and Wales acquires its HEMS funding means that the costs of running the helicopter can be funded by means which do not involve an objective review of the value of the service provided. Morally though, we should try and make it as effective and efficient as possible, and be able to demonstrate that, in case anyone ever asks

[MINself]

Neither can the AA helicopters provide a patient transfer service for critical patients since the amount of kit and attendees requires bigger helos than the charities can afford

That is not entirely true as this is dependent on the type of AA aircraft used? I have done numerous patient transfers and once the attendees have been briefed as to what they can and cannot bring, having been made aware of the space available in the back of the aircraft and also the equipment already carried, they have been more than satisfied with the equipment they have been allowed to bring.

It's human nature to bring as much equipment as one possibly can, just in case, on the odd occasion even if we'd have landed in a Chinook for a patient transfer it would have been filled with "critical" personnel and equipment!

[Skyhigh-Ulster]

No i wasn't i thought ISTR meant instrument trained :confused:

[Dr. Bunsen Honeydew]

I think you'll find they would be instrument trained as commercial pilots, but police ops are visual by nature so they wouldn't operate using an instrument rating. You wouldn't be a journalist by any chance?:confused:

[Skyhigh-Ulster]

Nope :=

So if police pilots aren't instrument trained, then they can't fly in all weathers am i right ?

[timex]

Skyhigh So if police pilots aren't instrument trained, then they can't fly in all weathers am i right ?

Weather limitations help but if you can't see the ground you can't see the villain/incident.


CK I could go on but I would bore you. As for night Ops well that could be solved overnight if we made all HEMS flights a part of 'Government Operations' and took them away from JAROPS 3. There is nothing special about Police Helicopters, they just have the benefit of the POM. Don't get me going on that one.......


Not ALL Air Ambulances have FLIR and a Nitesun for Ad Hoc landings..

[MightyGem]

So if police pilots aren't instrument trained
Approximately 80% of Police pilots are definately instrument trained, because that's the approximate percentage of Police pilots who are ex military. Of the other 20% of "civilian" Police pilots, probably quite a few have an instrument rating from previous jobs.

Regardless of which, we have to carry out 1 hour of sim IF training every 3 months. Not a great amount, I must admit, but enough to prepare you incase of inadvertant IMC. :eek:

[C.Korsky-Driva]

Timex

Like I said, there is nothing special about Police helicopters - just bolt on a FLIR - Fit the Night Sun - job done.

Police Pilots and IRs - The cops don't like IRs because they cost too much to get and to maintain so they make do without and pretend that inadvertant flight into IMC doesn't happen - despite one EC 135 drivers bad experience in Strathclyde a few years back. Thankfully NVGs may save us from further embarassment.

Sussex

If any of the individuals in the Susses Police/HEMS outfit feel insulted by my exhortations on their behalf then I am truly sorry. My intentions were all about raising an issue that is akin to the Emperor's Clothes and if we all go on saying how wonderful they look then before we know it it will become the fashion. My experience of both clinical staff and Police Officers (first hand I might add) is that they are under-appreciated by the general public and deserve more from us insofar as they should not be asked to do a first-rate job in second-rate circumstances. As with our Military they deserve the right tools for the job.

CKD

[XV666]

You wouldn't be a journalist by any chance?

Nope

But you are on a mission to discredit the PSNI, aren't you :rolleyes:

You certainly have a bee in your bonnet, looking at your previous posts. FoI applications, newspaper reports, trying to find out via Rotorheads who operates the helicopters, even though the FoI for that information was refused on security grounds.

Anyone would think you have a (hidden) agenda :yuk:

[[email protected]]

Minself - I am talking about a patient on a trolley hooked up to ventilators, monitors, drips etc with ICU staff (normally 2 or 3) or ECMO transfers which AA can't do either. And I am talking about doing it day or night, VMC or IMC.

[MINself]

I am talking about a patient on a trolley...

Errr.... Well yes the trolley will be a problem! But, the rest of the equipment will be fine as it's either already on the aircraft or we can make room for it, even for the 2 staff or 3 at a push. As for the Night/IFR transfers that will happen and in the mean time your guys and gals can manage that?

[Skyhigh-Ulster]

heli your wrong := - but thanks for the info that the FOI was refused on security grounds, i didn't know that.

[Dr. Bunsen Honeydew]

So go on, tell us - why do you have such a bee in your bonnet? It's obvious from your postings that you don't have an aviation background but you do have lots of facts and figures to hand. If not a journalist then maybe reasons of politics? Hotter or colder? I'm intrigued....

[whoateallthepies]

C.K and Crab
I am in total agreement with you that the UK government should fund a country-wide fleet of dedicated Police/Ambulance/Fire helicopters.

In the meantime, the services make do with the arrangements in place and the shortcomings inherent in this.

The original thread was "Any police helicopters used as Air Ambulances?" and this had been answered. You can call dual-roleing second rate but I think you will find that the service provided is first rate. It would not work in some locations, e.g. West Yorks but in the places it has been set up it is working a treat.

Crab, Minself is right But, the rest of the equipment will be fine as it's either already on the aircraft or we can make room for it, even for the 2 staff or 3 at a push. As for the Night/IFR transfers that will happen and in the mean time your guys and gals can manage that? .
Your knowledge of Air Ambulance capabilities is obviously limited. I suggest you try to pay a visit to your nearest unit to acquaint yourself with their transfer capabilities. True, most can't yet do night /IFR but if the public support and fundraising allow, I think you will find that many units have this in their long-term plans. (Speak to Yorkshire AA. Although they might be busy winch training!).

It is a shame that studies have shown limited value for HEMS when those of us involved in the work know of circumstances where only a helicopter could have made a difference to the patient's outcome. So no government money will be coming.

[Skyhigh-Ulster]

Dr. Bunsen - i was wondering how much it costs to provide a police helicopter and how much value for money i get as a tax payer !!Now through my own research the cost of buying the helicopter and the costs to run it - so far ( i don't have all the figures ) is shocking - given that the helicopter on average over the last 2yrs flew only 3hrs per day. So on that basis why can't the helicopter be used as an Air Ambulance as well instead of me paying for it to sit on the tarmac doing nothing ?

[Fortyodd2]

Skyhigh, Just how much is it costing you - per year?? Just for comparison, our local Police air support last year cost the local rate payers just under 14 pence per household. That's covering 2 counties ~ and you've got 6. Be interested to know.

For that 14p contribution the ratepayers got 911 flying hours in support of the police. The crews attended 2893 incidents, were directly responsible for 212 arrests, assisted in the arrest of 488 others, found 49 missing persons, recovered 93 stolen vehicles and property valued at £1,467,000 - and carried 5 casualties to hospital.

[[email protected]]

Whoeate and minself - if you are correct then why does the SARF do so many medtransfers and ECMOs in day VFR conditions? Is it that the politics of AA and the NHS don't like an AA going out of area (we did Exeter to Oxford the other day) or is it that you don't have the range with all the kit on board? There must be some reason why the ARRCK phone keeps on ringing:)

[Skyhigh-Ulster]

fortyodd2 i think you're missing the point - i wouldn't mind if they flew 24/7 catching scum - but they aren't :rolleyes: so rather the helicopter sitting about costing the tax money for doing nothing, use it to help others in need :ugh:

[MINself]

That's a good question possibly it's a combination of both of those factors or possibly the local AA unit were already on a task, bad weather or unserviceability?

I don't know the actual circumstances of that transfer but I'd had thought you'd have been pleased to be used for the good and benefit of the public, whilst you can ;)

[whoateallthepies]

Crab
Well it does leave a valuable Air Ambulance on standby with its highly trained and useful paramedics available. Whilst the over-funded and under-utilised SAR machine can do the routine stuff. There's always a second one whilst the first one's away. Nice to have the money to do that. http://i.1asphost.com/whoateallthepies/pie.jpg

[Helinut]

Skyhigh,

3 hours per day is a pretty high utilisation rate for a helicopter in the UK. Over 1,000 hours per year is a lot more than many helicopters fly.

As an approximate guide, it takes almost as much time on the ground in pre-flight and post-flight activities by the crew, as it does to fly.

Think for a moment about the work that police helicopters do. Most of the valuable stuff is not planned but reacting to situations as they occur. The criminals, missing persons, lunatic drivers and others do not have to book the time they do their burglary, murder, suicide attempt, DIC or whatever, so that it can be scheduled into a pre-planned programme. (That would be nice - perhaps we can suggest to the politicians that they make a law to require this!). If such a reactive service flew much more than 3 or so hours per day, then there would be far too many occasions when 2 significant incidents occurred at the same time which would markedly affect the ability of one helicopter to respond adequately.

There are some police helicopters in the UK that fly closer to 1 hour per day. The most that any UK police helicopter flies in a year is about 1,500 hours per year. It would be very difficult to organise operations to fly more than that with one aircraft.

[Fortyodd2]

Skyhigh ~ that’s a fair point but that would mean the Police being out of pocket as their flying hours budget for the year would be split between the 2 roles. It’s the police budget that dictates the flying hours available ~ want more? Pay more. 3 hours a day = 1100 per year, (ish). Yes, having an aircraft available in the air 24/7 catching crims would be great but can your police force afford it? Ours can’t and, unless they keep making the best possible, most efficient use of the hours they are given for the benefit of the police then the police will not pay for it.
I appreciate that in Northern Ireland you are not blessed with the availability of the charity funded Air Ambulances that we in Mainland UK have – there are 5 around here – but the police aircraft still carries a stretcher, defib and first aid kit because the air ambos do not work at night. AFAIK, the PSNI Aircraft does the same ~ how many casevacs has the PSNI aircraft done?
During the “troubles” the people of Northern Ireland and, in particular, South Armagh, had a 24/7 air ambulance service better than anything on the mainland. Are you perhaps suggesting that the police aircraft carries on from where the recently departed RAF and Army Air Corps left off? ~ Providing a free service to the NHS and public but at a cost to the police.
Perhaps you would be better off asking the local NHS why they have not approached the PSNI and offered to “Buy” some extra flying hours for the purpose of Air Ambulance work or provided any paramedics as crew ~ more likely that they are pleased to get what they get at the moment for free.
For the record I think that it’s a disgrace that the UK does not have a Government funded Air Ambulance network however, looking at the mess the current lot are making of everything else, the current system is probably as good as it’s going to get for now.

[Skyhigh-Ulster]

I'm sorry for the ammount of money its costing the taxpayers 3hrs isn't good enough.

For the record I think that it’s a disgrace that the UK does not have a Government funded Air Ambulance network however

I could agree more :D

[What Limits]

I am truly fascinated by the concept of getting value for money from the public sector. As a UK taxpayer for 33 years, I am yet to see this.

Don't worry, as an ex-patriate, the incompetents that you lot put into power still grab a shed-load of cash from me and what do I get for it?

If you are getting 3 hours a day out of your police heli, you are doing well. Remember that this is averaged out over 12 months.

If you want more out of your heli, you have to pay more.

Hamster wheel vacated - NEXT !!

[Skyhigh-Ulster]

No we're paying far to much as it is - thats the whole point :ugh: someone is creaming £££ and i think thats why some questions have gone unanswered !!

But hey i get knock down but i get up again :)

[ShyTorque]

Skyhigh,

I note your concern but beware of making assumptions. I used to fly a police helicopter in an area without air ambulance cover; we used to fulfil both roles. From my own experience, what is really needed is dedicated aircraft for each role. Would we expect a military fighter to fly as a bomber, or a transport aircraft, or vice versa? I would hope not; each cannot fulfil the other roles effectively.

A police helicopter is not like an empty "white van" inside, nor is an air ambulance. Each role requires specialised, fixed equipment. To convert from one role to another may need an engineer using special tools.

All of the role equipment is included in the all-up weight of the aircraft; the maximum weight of the aircraft cannot be exceeded. Performance limitations due to takeoff / landing altitude and temperature may mean the maximum weight cannot be flown, so removal of this equipment may be essential.

Physical space limitations of the cabin can make it very difficult to fit a stretcher. One type of police aircraft that I flew cannot accommodate a stretcher unless the observer's seat is completely removed and both it and the occupant are left behind. Not good if the next job is an urgent police job with the observer left high in the hills, waiting for the aircraft to return; but at least that would increase the hours flown - but unfortunately the extra would be wasted hours.

If role equipment such as the Nightsun searchlight and the camera needs to be removed to save weight, it takes a finite time. If an aircraft flies in one role, it may be unable to go to a different job role without a retrun to base for an engineer to remove one set of equipment and fit another.

By trying to make one aircraft fulfill both roles, it may become only partially effective in either or both; certainly the response times may be increased to an unacceptable level.

[handysnaks]

Police Pilots and IRs - The cops don't like IRs because they cost too much to get and to maintain so they make do without and pretend that inadvertant flight into IMC doesn't happen - despite one EC 135 drivers bad experience in Strathclyde a few years back.
...and the pilot of that aircraft had an instrument rating

skyhigh ulster, when you've finished sorting out the police helicopter you can then get onto sorting out the fire brigade, they keep loads and loads of big red fire engines sat in the fire station when they're not fighting fires. that can't be good utilisaton for an expensive machine like a fire engine....

[tigerfish]

Sky-High. I am sorry but you are just plain wrong on this one, and it is perhaps that you just do not understand the nature of the beast. In the first instance an average of 3 hours per day per machine is very high and is well above the usual rate of utilisation for such aircraft. Military machines usualy fly less than 300 hrs!
Neither do you understand the method of operation.
The secret of success, - of catching the bad guys, is being able to have that machine overhead the problem within 15 minutes of the incident starting. That requires constant vigilence of all radio traffic and the ability to get airborne within a couple of minutes of receiving a call.
Once that vital 15 minutes has passed the likelehood of the aircraft being of any use drops off remarkably quickly, the culprits have gone.
Now if as you want, that machine is engaged in other activities during its downtime it will never be in the right place to answer the call and will never be able to be really effective.
In the early days we carried little kit other than a searchlight, but as experience was gained we rapidly built up a formidable array of very effective aids to catching the criminal. Today UK Police helicopters carry kit that would be the envy of many military units. They are VERY effective crime fighters and VERY effective at catching the real bad boys. Your proposals far from making them more effective would for the most part make them totaly ineffective. Quite simply we cannot carry effective Police role equipment and the very high standard of life saving equipment that the modern amulance aircraft carries. The dual role machine will always be a compromise.

Imagine for a moment that you have been critically injured in an accident your life is ebbing away. Then the helicopter that comes to save you cannot carry the proper equipment to save your life because it is also carrying surveilance camera's infrared kit, moving map, night sun etc etc. Pity but thats it!

Or you have just been robbed, the assailants have stolen your car, your valuables and also your baby asleep on the back seat. Tough! The Police helicopter that would have got them within a few minutes is away on the other side of the county picking up someone who has fallen from a horse!

The machines themselves are just too technical to be used for other duties. However significant savings can be made from combining the amin functions of Police, Ambulance and Fire machines. The office equipment, fuel and maintenance contracts could well be shared but not now the machines. Remember SkyHigh you are overlooking one vital aspect. Its not the time the machine is in the air that counts. ITS WHAT IT DELIVERS WHEN ITS OPERATING THAT COUNTS. Why do you think that UK Police air supprt has been so effective for the past 20 years if we have it so wrong?

In short SKY High. Stick to passing judgement on something that you know something:bored: about! By all means PM me and I will send you the background material that you lack.

Tigerfish

[Skyhigh-Ulster]

Nah your fine - i think i'm doing ok !!

I wish i could get paid for just working 3hrs a day ( £300,000 per year )

[ShyTorque]

From your last answer, if you don't want to hear relevant facts or information on the subject, I take it this is actually a rant based on misplaced jealousy?

[Whirlygig]

Skyhigh, either you're not explaining your viewpoint and agenda very well or you've missed some fundamental accounting concepts of fixed and marginal costs. Sure you're not a journalist? Asking about bird strikes? And who provides pilots to PSNI?

A police/air ambo pilot is not working for 3 hours a day just because the helicopter flies for 3 hours a day - they are working for far more hours than that. The marginal cost of each extra flying hour would be the flying cost of the helicopter; salaries and overheads being fixed. Being public sector, the concept of absorption costing is irrelevant.

And don't forget that the aircraft can often be grounded for unserviceability and weather - this means that, in order to achieve 3 hours a day average, some days the flying is a lot more.

In order for the aircraft to fly more, it will cost the tax payer more - it really is as simple as that. It's not clear from your posts what you are expecting? Lower taxes or higher taxes?

Cheers

Whirls

[Senior Pilot]

As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, or sciolists*, to elicit certain reactions.
*"sciolist"... Noun, archaic. "a person who pretends to be knowledgeable and well informed".




:ugh:

[[email protected]]

Minself and whoate - nice try but the fish ain't biting today:)

Unlike the AA, we don't have to try and justify our existence/funding by launching to every shout.

When AA get full night/IFR/NVG capability and a big enough heli to do ICU patient transfer, they will be too expensive for the charities to afford and will then fold or go back to day VMC.:)

BTW, our paramedics are trained to the same standard as your paramedics (does the term clinical governance mean anything to you?)

Oh, and under SARH, there won't be a second SAR aircraft so who will do the medtransfers?

Have you worked out what an ECMO is yet?:)

[MINself]

Thats a shame....

Unlike the AA, we don't have to try and justify our existence/funding by launching to every shout.

Crab, thats a cheap shot. Those that understand the dispatch criteria of AA's understand that it's only when a certain criteria have been met and the tasks validity has been agreed by everyone that an AA launches. A very similar way to how you're dispatched, but quicker :)

The UK AA's will eventually do all that you think it won't do! I believe we may have 4 years to get there? The service isn't perfect but then few are, I have lost count the number of times I have listened to the woes of SAR SeaKing crews about unserviceabilites due to the lack of funding, you may consider promoting your excellent work rather deriding the work of others because as good as PPRUNE is I doubt Govt. will pay much attention to what's said on here.... however, if there is anyone reading this from Govt can we have a winch pleeeease? ;)

...oh and yes to the ECMO question, thank you Google.

[nodrama]

wish i could get paid for just working 3hrs a day ( £300,000 per year

You've still completely missed the point about flying time/ duty hrs. Or is it you just want to listen to the bits that fit in with your arguement?

[nodrama]

Whoateallthepies

Your knowledge of Air Ambulance capabilities is obviously limited. I suggest you try to pay a visit to your nearest unit to acquaint yourself with their transfer capabilities.


Don't start Crab off again! He actually operates just down the road from his local Air Ambulance, they share a re-fuelling facility, liase and I'm sure he's poked his head inside one to see what there is.

[whoateallthepies]

nodrama
I know that Crab is very knowledgeable about all of this, I just enjoy a bit of "Devils Advocate" with him and I'm afraid, despite what he said, I have got him to bite on this one!

Minself. right again. It's only a shame that some in the SAR world don't see the writing on the wall. No second SAR aircraft will just mean more transfers for properly equipped and manned Air Ambulances. The charities will support this work in the long run.

Hang on, we've gone away from the thread a bit here! http://i.1asphost.com/whoateallthepies/pie.jpg

[Dr. Bunsen Honeydew]

Skyhigh

Let's get back to basics. You don't really know much about aviation or helicopters in particular, so lets imagine we talk about fire engines and ambulances with similar capabilities.

The emergency vehicle can carry 3 people, go for 1hr 30 mins between refuelling, has only 4 petrol stations in the whole area covering 1.5 million people, 1 of which is open at night. Each can do a very small amount of which the other can (firemen: first aid, ambulance crew: fire extinguisher) but don't have the capacity to carry any more kit.

We have two options: base each vehicle centrally to react to the appropriate call, or make each roam about until something happens.

Based centrally and reacting means that they can send the appropriate vehicle to deal with a definite call, they can get there and back without refuelling en-route, and chances are they will have on average (you'll like that statistical reference) a good success rate.

Roaming the countryside, the appropriate vehicle is more likely to be further away, in need of a refuel (especially at night) or in for a service (this goes by hours operated, not time-scale). The Fire engine can turn up for the car accident when the ambulance is too far away, but they can't deal with 2 spinal injuries or have space to carry the patients to the hospital; the house fire really doesn't need a fire extinguisher......

Let's have a fireman and paramedic on each vehicle, and have both sets of equipment carried, I hear you cry. Well, the vehicle can't carry enough, or if it does then there is only enough fuel space left to drive from home to the petrol station. Each crew member is also of much less use to the other under each scenario. Let's dual qualify each crew member? This may be possible, but there will be a huge dilution of skills and experience. Certainly, the unit is no longer of any practical use and is now twice as expensive, far more ineffective and infinitely more difficult to crew with appropriately qualified staff. The local bean-counters look at the high cost and low results and decide to save all the budget for the old fashioned, but now more efficient methods which we initially tried to improve upon.


Getting back to the Police situation, we can patrol all day, but see above.
Your 3 hours might be for 6 half hour tasks spread throughout the day. Factoring in bad weather, when even if qualified to fly the pilots/crew could not see the ground to help, and servicing, you might have 4-5 multiple sorties per day. Alternatively we could probably patrol for 10 hours a day but still only attempt to attend the same suitable incidents whilst probably not having enough fuel to assist or taking twice as long to attend each. Success rates half, and running costs double (as do servicing costs, time unavailable because of them and the frequency of buying a new helicopter because the old one is knackered too early). Would you buy a 250000 mile taxi or a 50000 mile private car of the same age? Guess which costs more to maintain. Your "poor value for money" helicopter has now cost twice as much to operate and has achieved half as many successes.

I am sorry you are fixated on blaming one service for not doing the work of another, but why blame a fire-crew for not being able to save the lives of a heart attack victim? Or a paramedic for letting a house full of kids burn down when he had a perfectly good fire extinguisher in his ambulance?

Really, I think your concern and somewhat tenacious energy would be better served by campaigning and researching the provision of an air ambulance service and better coastguard helicopter provision in N.I. because one machine will not do both jobs (winching/rescue and emergency medical aid/ambulance). The police have saved several lives as witnessed in local papers if you Google it, but there is little capacity in affordable sized helicopters for multiple roles per cab. Everything in the heli world is a finely balanced compromise.

I hope that this may help you, and I really wish that you could assist in the real problem - provision of a realistic air ambulance for the province (not a rescue/winching pipe-dream). These forums have many knowledgeable people who are more than willing to help if approached in a reasonable manner.

Lastly, I suggest you check the CAA website and download and study the Police Air Operations Manual (CAP612) http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=210

I had a quick look and it may show you the tight restrictions they operate under - more restrictive than commercial operations in many ways.

[zorab64]

Quote:
Police Pilots and IRs - The cops don't like IRs because they cost too much to get and to maintain so they make do without and pretend that inadvertant flight into IMC doesn't happen - despite one EC 135 drivers bad experience in Strathclyde a few years back.

...and the pilot of that aircraft had an instrument rating - but just wasn't as current as most non-IR Police pilots are with the Auto-pilot!

If we dual roled, we'd get nothing done properly - with the police kit aboard, there'd be no room/weight for HEMS equipment AND a patient, unless the Police were happy with less than 60 mins endurance for their tasks . . . normally not enough.

Dual roling is effectively (I'd suggest) an interim or compromise solution in areas where they can't afford/justify both separately. If your (non-24 hour) Police operation flies 500-600 hours p.a., you might consider dual roling to improve resourse use - if you're working in the 900hrs+ area, you'd be run ragged in no time.

Skyhigh - the role & uses of a police helicopter have been explained very effectively by others (40 odd #47 / Helinut #52 / tigerfish #59 / Dr Bunsen) if you can't actually accept the answers from the "pp"s on this network, and others who obviously have a decent grasp of reality, don't ask the question. If you really want to waste money, suggest the helicopter swans around in the air for 6hrs per day (probably in the wrong place for any reactive job) & watch your taxes rise even more.

These machines are used most effectively as rapid, reactive, response, or taking 12 mins to search a square mile of fields for the missing 82 yr old altzheimers patient, to direct a single officer to investigate possible "finds" (or even land themselves), rather than 400 man hours for ground officers to do the same. If you want your Police patrolling the streets nabbing hoodies (as the government does), don't get them to waste their time & your money doing jobs more suited to airborne technology & expertise. :ok:

If you're trying to wind professionals up, you've done a good job!:mad:

[Skyhigh-Ulster]

First off can i say i'm not trying to wind anyone up and i'm sorry if it came across that way.

All i can is - i atill think a police helicopter that only flies 3hrs on average surely there is room to combine it as an Air Ambulance - even if only saves one life !!

As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, or sciolists*, to elicit certain reactions.


I guess that applies to replies as well then :=

[ShyTorque]

Skyhigh,

You asked for answers and got truthful, informed answers from folk actually in the job. Unfortunately it appears that you don't want to listen, only to sound off.

If I'm a sciolist in your opinion, so be it; but at least I have professional in role experience as a previous chief pilot of a Police Air Support Unit which was then additionally tasked with the CASEVAC role.

I'll say it again - what you apparently imagine to be a very simple thing, is far from the reality and practicality of the situation. "My" unit now has been supplemented by a specialist air ambulance. The AA is kept extremely busy. If the police helicopter were still tasked with the additional role, it would have little time to carry out any police duties. My best advice would be to listen out and let the professionals do their job, whilst you stick to yours.

That's my final say in this thread because I suspect it's unrealistic to expect you to change your view.

[Dr. Bunsen Honeydew]

Skyhigh,

I guess there's no point in trying to help or offer opinions and advice if you won't read it. I just hope you don't have to call the fire brigade tonight - just think how few hours a day each engine drives and think of how many there are!
Now surely they could operate as buses or something to utilise the other 22-odd hours of the day more cost effectively....

Thanks to the other helpful posters but I think we've hit a brick wall on this one. Some people just don't want to know. :ugh:I'm off.

[Skyhigh-Ulster]

Its ok i know how good a job the Fire Brigade do - i use to be a firefighter lol


Ok maybe i don't fully get or don't understand about a Helicopter - so i'll ask you all to explain !!


Say the pilot starts at 7am give me a brief run down of his/her day

Ie - checks - refueling that sot of thing :ok:

[homonculus]

From a medical point of view, interhospital transfers are totally different from primary work - as different as an ITU from an A and E department. Critically ill ITU patients need sophisticated ventilators (yes a transport ventilator will cope perhaps for a short time but may further damage the lungs) plus multiple infusion pumps (yes we might keep the patient alive with fewer for an hour or so with fingers crossed) and loads of other gear. It needs proper power and gases plus a dedicated fit plus size - S76 upwards.

This needs 2-3 ships for England and Wales, ideally IFR but that needs IFR approaches plus proper pads for all acute hospitals. The current debacle with GPS approaches makes the former unlikely whilst 25 years after it was made mandatory to plan helipads for new hospital builds less than 10% of new builds have pads.

Primary is still unproven despite the Sheffield review and attempts at audit. In rural areas helicopters MAY offer advantages in terms of time to hospital but in most other areas the benefits may relate to delivery of medical teams, which is why London's HEMS, which carries a doctor, albeit highly protocolised, has the edge over many others. Poland played with single engine machines to simply deliver a doctor and despite much ridicule their data is as good as ours!

We desperately need better research into primary HEMS, but I doubt night or IFR operations will ever be viable which means we doctors need to continue to develop alternatives for night and poor vis periods. The resulting development of prehospital practitioners unfortunately demonstrates a much cheaper alternative for most urban and semirural communities.

However, the cost issue is really just another political smokescreen. The cost of interhospital has been proven to save money. The cost of primary represents less than 1% of acute services and even with a life saved:missions flown ratio of 1% is a no brainer.

Given an option, we doctors would like to see 2-3 secondary and 13 primary aircraft for England and Wales, not limited to individual NHS regions, staffed with doctors and funded from central taxation.

Oh well, back to reality - well done all you fund raisers, and yes, if we cant have better a joint role with police gets my vote. Just be aware of the limitations and ensure the politicians are brought to task as often as possible.

[Geoffersincornwall]

The emergency services are reactive. When we patrolled London in a Bell 47 back in the 80s we were forever finding that we were in the wrong part of town but we did manage to improve the reaction time a little and every now and then we were in exactly the right spot (which was pretty important in a B47). In Glasgow we found that we had an hourly budget to stay within and couldn't waste any time patrolling so it's not surprising that with such a vast area to cover we were sometimes a bit slow getting on top. Being the only chopper in Scotland (police chopper that is) didn't help.

Some days might be spent drinking coffee and listening to the radio but had we been suckered into a AA flight then, good as that might be for our PR profile, it meant that we could not be around when the boys on the ground cried for help which is what we were hired to do.

It may not be well known but when the contract first AA in the country was about to be signed the D & C Constabulary came along and offered the use of
a second West Country Police Helicopter if we pulled out of the AA idea.

I often wonder what would have happened if that offer had been accepted for upon that model the other AA projects were born.

G

[Whirlygig]

Skyhigh, you don't need to know about helicopters but you do need to have a certain amount of common sense. Very experienced pilots have told you that the equipment and personnel required for the two roles are quite different. Is that a difficult concept?

By saying that a police helicopter can be utilised as an air ambulance when not "in flight" as a police helicopter assumes an even time distribution of call-outs - this doesn't happen in reality.

Try watching Helicops or Chopper Coppers along with 999 Frontline (all featuring some of our "stars" here!!) and you might get some idea!!!

Cheers

Whirls

[[email protected]]

Whoate - only a little nibble though:)

We do all know the writing is on the wall - that is what is so depressing. No matter how well the contract is written, the contractor will only just fulfill that contract and no more.

As for the pipe dream about AA doing the patient transfers that we do - you may aspire to it but there is never going to be the money to fund it - unless central govt dig deep and they are broke thanks to Gordon and Alastair.

I know that both our local AAs are red - does that make me an expert?:)

Homonculus - thanks for the medical input - I know from the severity of the cases that we transport that the last thing the doctors want to do is start decanting the patient from trolley to stretcher, back to trolley the other end. It is difficult enough just lifting the whole shebang into a Sea King without upsetting the patient's often minimal chance of survival - cramming them into the back of a 135 or similar would be worse I am sure.

Unfortunately many hospitals seem happy to build on HLS areas suitable for large helos and many either have LS only suitable for small helos or have to use alternate sites such as playing fields which is less than ideal (wet, muddy fields and trolley wheels don't mix well)

[whoateallthepies]

Crab
I also find it depressing about the future of the SAR force, being an ex 22 sqn bloke. It's criminal to wind up such an asset. I know I jest about transfers etc but it's true that the hospital transfer capabilities will be reduced when the contract begins. But that's an aside from this thread.

homonculus
but I doubt night or IFR operations will ever be viable
Sussex and Wiltshire have been operating at night for many years now. It has been possible only due to the police equipment which is fitted, admittedly only in rural areas but very successfuly.

zorab64
Dual roling is effectively (I'd suggest) an interim or compromise solution in areas where they can't afford/justify both separately.
It is not a compromise and it works well in Sussex. It is a first-rate service both for the police and the ambulance services. As I said, there are obviously places where it would not work, your unit being one of them. But where it is in place, it works very well. http://i.1asphost.com/whoateallthepies/pie.jpg

[Fortyodd2]

“Unfortunately many hospitals seem happy to build on HLS areas suitable for large helos and many either have LS only suitable for small helos or have to use alternate sites such as playing fields which is less than ideal (wet, muddy fields and trolley wheels don't mix well)”

Sadly, all too true. When I started here in 2005 we had 7 Hospital pads in our local patch. We are currently down to 3, 1 day only and the other 2 on football pitches which are an ambulance ride from casualty. All the others are now car parks which, unlike the helipads, are used as cash generators. One local hospital has bucked the trend though and included a superb rooftop pad in it’s re-build. :)It was finished and ready for use about a year ago but, as yet, has had no customers because the casualty department doesn’t open until Oct 09 :\

[jayteeto]

My Typical Shift by Jayteeto

7.15am or pm Get to work for a half seven start
7.25 Handover from day/night crew

7.30 Do something completely different EVERY day

7.30 Go home tired.

What can be in my 'typical' day?? Some days/nights we fly 6 hours over 10 flights, some days we don't fly at all. Most days involve at least 2 flights. Weather conditions range from a summer scorcher to a winter storm. Some days are no effort whatsoever to fly, others leave me nearly too tired to drive home. Other than flying, the aircraft needs an engine running compressor wash every morning and the pilot carries out a thorough Check A servicing. Time is spent each shift doing a small amount of checklist revision and study to keep knowledgable on aircraft systems. Lunch and tea are eaten at the unit as we have to stay on site 24/7 although meal times are flexible +/- 3 hours. We have a simple IF simulator to practice instrument flying. If I can, I always like to eat a doughnut at least once on a shift, if not a chocolate hobnob will suffice. We have a comfy restroom, with Sky TV that everyone chips in to pay for at commercial rates and usually try to watch a bit of TV during meal times. I often read the paper and do the telegraph sudoku, browse the internet, call my kids on my mobile, god forbid I got caught but I have even washed my car in the past.

You know what though?? Only one thing matters............ If we get a job, we drop everything and get airborne in 2 or 3 minutes and get on to the task. Forget trying to justify what to do with spare time, do the task that you need to do. Police helis........ Police jobs, Ambo helis....... Ambo Jobs, Sar buoys....... W******s!!, No No! I mean search for people and rescue them!! (sorry, old habit). Jack of all trades/master of none.
Forgot to add..... If the local authority is happy to use you as something else taking you off line for the main task, no problem, as long as no-one complains if you don't turn up for a grade 1 job.

[Another Old Git]

There is a report, currently only in draft form, called "Framework for a High Performing Air Ambulance Service", which is bringing together the thoughts of the charities, Department of Health and NHS Ambulance Trusts. It is due to be published this summer and will hopefully bring about an end to the sometimes divisive and uncoordinated world of UK air ambulances, since we are all now, at last, agreed on the best way forward.
It will certainly revolutionise HEMS in England and Wales.

There are many interesting elements in the report, that deals with governance, crewing, tasking and interestingly for this thread, collaborations with Police and SAR, which are encouraged. The Wiltshire model has just had a welcome reprieve and Sussex Police have just entered an enhanced collaboration with their local air ambulance charity. It's all very encouraging.

Coupled with an already published report from NICEPOD called "Trauma, who cares" it will give the whole healthcare industry a bit of long awaited direction. There is nothing to fear in the report, I just look forward to it being published so that we can all get on with it.

[Flaxton Flyer]

"since we are all now, at last, agreed on the best way forward"

That sounds interesting, What would this way forward be, then?

[Skyhigh-Ulster]

Thanks Jayteeto - the hanging about is a killer :)

[tigerfish]

Just to avoid any misunderstanding. The Wiltshire joint Police/Air Ambulance has only been repreived for 2 years. After that the funding is likely to be switched to a dedicated air ambulance carrying enhanced equipment. Quite where that will leave the Police machine is still not decided. Wiltshire is a small force ( numerically as apposed to geographically) and will probably not survive on its own without a partner. They may well join into a consortium of other SW forces.

That this is being forced upon them, is in itself a great shame, for the Wiltshire Unit is one of our earliest and has provided a great service to the people of Wiltshire. I really do hope that somehow it will survive.

But it underlines the problem and the weakness of joint units. They simply cannot carry enough role equipment to do both jobs as efficiently as the dedicated machines can. The answer must be to retain the specialised machines but make significant savings on the supporting (none crew & none flying ) infrastructure. i.e joint operating criteria (AOC or State), maintenance contracts, bulk purchase of fuel, buildings and support staff etc etc.

In this litigenous society it may well become too dangerous to consider any form of medical conveyance in a machine that is not fitted to the highest standard. However in this field I am well outside my comfort zone & will expect to be corrected.

Tigerfish

[whoateallthepies]

Tigerfish
They simply cannot carry enough role equipment to do both jobs as efficiently as the dedicated machines can.
You're wrong. They do. http://i.1asphost.com/whoateallthepies/pie.jpg

[Geoffersincornwall]

Mr Newton (as in the laws of physics) or Mr Pie-man????

G

:ugh::ugh:

[tigerfish]

Pieman,

If you are correct, why out of 27 units are only two so engaged, and why are both having to struggle so hard?

Please do not get me wrong. I want to see both of the units survive, they were both early exponeants of the art and have an excellent history. But the world has moved on and the dedicated units offer so much more. Surely the future lies in combined units offering well equipped dedicated machines, providing an excellent service to the ratepayer.

There can be no compromise on service delivery. It must always be the best available. What we need to resolve is the most efficient method of delivering that service. And that does not provide an excuse for cost cutting!

Tigerfish:=

[tbc]

Tigerfish,

As you are a 'police aviation expert' I am somewhat surprised' by your comment:

"....the world has moved on and the dedicated units offer so much more."

Would you be kind enough to elaborate as to what the "..so much more.." is that the good tax payers of Sussex and Wiltshire are so obviously missing out on from their dedicated police air operations units?

Additionally:

"There can be no compromise on service delivery."

I wholeheartedly agree and would suggest that is currently the case.

"It must always be the best available."

I wholeheartedly agree and would suggest that is currently the case.

"What we need to resolve is the most efficient method of delivering that service."

I wholeheartedly agree and would suggest that is currently the case.

And that does not provide an excuse for cost cutting!

Have a word with Ms Smith at the Home Office about 'cost cutting'

:rolleyes:

[whoateallthepies]

tigerfish and Cornish pasty man (Mmmm!)
Read my posts. Police/Air Ambulance wouldn't work in all areas (as I have already said!!). It does work beautifully in Sussex and Wiltshire and they could be a model for other, more rural, areas.

tbc is more up-to date than I am and you have seen his reply. Try to buck up. (That's buck up!) http://i.1asphost.com/whoateallthepies/pie.jpg

[tigerfish]

My comment " The world has moved on" was really my impression of the current equipment state of the newer Air Ambulances. They certainly appear to be much more capable than the dual role machines.
Even the latest Police machines seem to be carrying more & more specialised equipment. Weight is becoming an issue to both.

But do not misunderstand me. I am fully in support of both of our existing dual role machines. They are an ideal compromise in the settings that they operate in. It is entirely probable that neither area would be able to support a Police machine on their own so the addition of the ambulance role is highly suited.

My point was that in most of the other areas it is already too late to go down that road. The Police machines are already fully occupied and the growth of dedicated air ambulances has been phenominal. Combining in those cases is unlikely. But I still believe that there are savings to be made in the supporting infrastructure.

What we have here in the UK is really very good. Both from the Police and Aero medical side. All we are talking about is the fine detail in how to make it even better.

Talk is easy but I doubt that those who will make the decisions will even care about what we think.

Tigerfish.

[tbc]

Tigerfish

Have you ever thought of a career in politics!!

[tigerfish]

TBC,

Sometimes, but its too boring!

Tigerfish

[KK]

I am very close with pilot that flies in Wiltshire, and there has never been any problems with which takes priority. In the case of this drugs operation mention above, thepolice would in this case that priority. Occassions like that happen very very realy. It works very well, it should be the model for the rest of the country.

[Geoffersincornwall]

With all due respect I pray nobody pays any attention to that suggestion. The air ambulance, if used effectively, can contribute to the overall efficiency of the Ambulance Service sometimes by dealing with calls that may not be life threatening but by keeping the maximum number of resources on the table and available for that callout that will save a life.

This type of cooperative venture may be better than nothing but it really does have to be seen as a stepping stone to a single-role-single-resource system.

Is anybody seriously suggesting that the many many pre-planned and well coordinated ops required by the cops should be sacrificed for the sake of well meaning but ill-informed folk who may never have experienced the job done properly.

I've done both jobs more than once and I hope to hell my word has a touch more credibility than a guy 'that knows a pilot'.

G

[malaprop]

KK, is English your first language? Without being too spelling-police-ish, your post doesn't make sense.

[timex]

I just cannot see the Charities that support the AA being too keen to continue supporting a Police helo that should be Govt funded. Dual role works in some areas but not in all, IMHO not the way ahead.