ELC Claim for ATPL Studies, Non Aircrew

[NickGooseBrady]

Hello All,

I have had mixed views on this.

I wish to use an Enhanced Learning Credit towards the cost of the ATPLs ground studies (Distance Learning).

I am not aircrew (although I was many moons ago). My Ed centre is insisting that I am unable to use an ELC for aviation unless I am serving aircrew. The activity is permissable as it is at the right qualification level but I am in the wrong branch?? Seems total bollox to me.

Anyone know the answer, the JSP and DIN shed no further light, all seems open to interpretation? :ugh:

TVM

NGB

[Megaton]

Sounds like a load of nonsense. I did the MCC 3 years ago using the ELC and I wasn't, and never had been, aircrew.

[Cpl Plod]

Mate,

AFAIR, you have to demonstrate that any course you want to do will be a benefit to the Service (no such thing as a free lunch:)).

There was/is a cut off point when you are close to leaving (12/18 months?) when you can pick any course (at the correct level of attainment).

ELC DIN Here (http://www.enhancedlearningcredits.com/mssql/index.html)

[Kick the tyres]

I am non aircrew and have just started my ATPL groundschool. It took about a year to convince the educators but ultimately the benefit to the service has to be proven if you are not aircrew.
You could for example, intend to become a flying instructor at your local RAF flying club with a pre-requisite for the instructor rating being completion of CPL groundschool. All you would need is a letter from the OIC Flying Club to the effect that you intend to instruct there when you have completed the course.

[whowhenwhy]

Unfortunately they've just released some guidance on this - well, I say that, they've talked about using an ELC to obtain CPL, I guess that the rules will be the same? You cannot use an ELC to gain CPL unless you're breveted aircrew, or in an executive appointment on an RAF Flying Club. It doesn't say that you have to be current aircrew, just entitled to wear the brevet...

[Backwards PLT]

About a year ago I was told the following by resettlement advisors:

Before resettlement you have to prove value to the service. Even as aircrew I could not use ELCs for an ATPL.

With <2 years to go ie officially on resettlement you just have to show that it is iaw with your resettlement plan - so if your plan is to become an airline pilot then no probs, aircrew or not.

However as seen above you ask 4 education centres and get 4 different answers! Good luck.

[Greenielynxpilot]

Far, far too many education officers appear to be reading too much into the first part of the following line from the DIN, apprarently without understanding that the remainder of the paragraph is what sets it in context:

"The proposed activity must be of direct benefit to the Service and have a substantial developmental value, as far as can be judged, appropriate to the applicant’s personal development goals"

Even worse, far far too many servicemen are letting these blunties get away with it! It is not their money!

Direct their attention to the aims of ELC, which are:

"To provide funding support to Service personnel who wish to enhance their educational, academic, professional or vocational achievements by pursuing higher level learning and who face substantial financial expenditure in doing so."

You get to decide what your goals are. You define whether an activity will help you on your way towards your goals. The role of the admin branch and the education officer in all this is merely to stamp the forms and to keep on converting oxygen to carbon dioxide at approximately the same rate as some rubber plant does the opposite in order to maintain an equilibrium.

[RAF_Techie101]

Currently using my ELC for my PPL at Moray Flying Club, not a problem as I'm in my lst 2 years. Total of 3 Grand being paid by them, cost to me about 1500 squid if I get through it all first time :D

[Stuff]

Far, far too many education officers appear to be reading too much into the first part of the following line from the DIN, apprarently without understanding that the remainder of the paragraph is what sets it in context:

"The proposed activity must be of direct benefit to the Service and have a substantial developmental value, as far as can be judged, appropriate to the applicant’s personal development goals"

Er... no.

It's the tax man that sets the rules governing ELC claims and it's the tax man that requires the course to be of direct benefit to the service. The waiver allowing any course to be completed in the resettlement period is a gift.

You cannot use ELCs for ATPL unless you are breveted aircrew or a flying club executive. Now please stop rocking this boat for the rest of us and accept the answer you have been given.

[gijoe]

Only appears to be a problem for boys in light blue - the other 2 don't really care!!

Stuff,

Q. Are you saying that there is no value in a member of those that provide support to you to keep you in the air not understanding more about the environment that you work in?

No, thought not.

:ok: That's the way I would sell it to the Admin(Trg) people.

[Greenielynxpilot]

What pathetic, selfish twaddle - Stuff, your attitude appears to be 'I'm onto a good thing, but I'm scared that if others were also to benefit then one of the last remaining perks of service life might get taken away from me'. That sort of attitude makes one unfit for military service, in my book.

Rules are sometimes wrong. Those that adminster them do not always understand them. There is nothing wrong with fighting for fair access to a benefit to which you are entitled - if more people did so, service life would not be half as bad as these forums make it sound.

Rock the boat - as hard as you like. In fact, I'll help. Tell your education officer that the Army, the Royal Navy, and education officers from two joint HQs at which I have worked (and successfully claimed ELC/SLC for personal flying training) see this my way and not the way the RAF appears to be doing things. It is the minions in your admin branch (and maybe also the minions in the Treasury with whom they consult) who have got it wrong. Threaten to formally redress them. You will win.

Perhaps you need to spell it out for your education officer (after all - he/she doesn't sound very bright). Two further aims of ELCAS (from the DIN) are:

"To enhance the reputation of the MOD as a modern and forward-looking employer, and thereby encourage the recruitment and retention of sufficient high quality numbers of Armed Forces personnel."

"To enable the MOD to participate more fully in the Government’s 'Life-Long Learning' initiative."

Doing an ATPL, as part of your personal development (which it is your prerogative to define as you see fit), patently achieves these two aims, and so the activity is quite clearly of direct benefit to the service. I suggest you cut and paste the following line into your Personal Development Plan:

"Training to become a pilot has been a life-long learning objective for me. It was one of the reasons I applied to the RAF in the first place, and remains an aspiration for after I leave. I am pleased that the MOD recognises that the opportunity to pursue these goals during normal service is an important component of my morale, which directly contributes towards fighting power." [First aim: tick. Second aim: tick. Direct benefit to service: tick]

"I have recently become disillusioned with service life. It is only the opportunity to pursue my personal development goals that is preventing me from applying for PVR." [First aim: tick. Direct benefit to service: tick]

[Stuff]

I repeat: It's the tax man that is the limiting factor, not the flying club staff, education staff or anyone else you feel like blaming.

gijoe - Where did I say that? I agree with you that exposure to flying training is a good thing for all members of all 3 services where possible. In fact many years ago there was a formal syllabus for flying training for members of ATC, Met Office and quite a few other trades. More recently there was an informal push to ensure that sqn members get the chance to fly where practicable and more recently still this all got shelved under the pressures of achieving CFT and fuel costs - I feel the RAF is the poorer for it.

Greenielynxpilot - you opinion noted and given the disregard it deserves. You have no idea of my circumstances or my involvement with trying to obtain PPL/CPL funding for the personnel under my command. I've actually fought against this decision and have the paperwork all the way to South Wales Area Tax Office to prove it - Have you? I have stated a fact, you do not like that fact and choose to make personal recriminations against me for it. A typical playground response.

[Greenielynxpilot]

OK - if its playground responses you want, I'll bite.

No, I don't have a paper trail from here to south wales. I do, however, have receipts from 3 x £1000 ELCAS grants (for ATPL groundschool and an R44 type rating) and 4 x £175 SLC grants (for various renewals, skills checks etc.)

You tried and failed. Close but no cigar.
I succeeded. Shows it can be done.

Lets leave those starting along this process to take their inspiration from whoever they prefer, eh?

[gijoe]

Let's continue...

The other 2 services look at this in a very different fashion and I think that is where your organisation, Stuff, has got it wrong. I saw the Admin(Trg) peoples statement of fact last week at BZN - and it is twaddle! As Greenie said above, instead of acccepting the 'no', gather some evidence and reshow it.

Q1. What %age of service personnel use their SLC funding?

Between 2-5% every year (including me and Greenielynx pilot) - so employ some of that leadership stuff and tell people to use it before it is taken away from us 'because 95% of people weren't claiming it etc.'

Courses that have received funding include:

First Aid at Sea
Sea Survival
Powerboat Safety Boat
Day Skipper Theory
...PPL Revalidation Flights

How do I know this?

Because I have done them all over the 9 years and claimed every single year and they have been sold on the priniciple of being good for the Service.

Q2. What else can you do?

Get everyone under your command to check if they are eligible for ELC and, if so, get them to use the funding before it is removed as well. I have no doubt there will be some that will have never heard of it let alone joined the scheme.

I think it is time to draw this ________________________________________

:ok:

[Stuff]

No, I don't have a paper trail from here to south wales. I do, however, have receipts from 3 x £1000 ELCAS grants (for ATPL groundschool and an R44 type rating) and 4 x £175 SLC grants (for various renewals, skills checks etc.)

Well done you. As a lynx pilot you are aircrew this is entirely within the rules. I fail to see your point. I never said I failed to get the funding either - one extreme of misreading to the other!

gijoe - I have no doubt there will be some that will have never heard of it let alone joined the scheme.

And if that's the case then there's only one other option to join the scheme and that's between 8 and 8.5 years service. Yes, I do employ that leadership stuff and everyone I am responsible for get ELCs shoved down their throat like it or not.

I'll agree with gijoe that this thread has reached it's useful limit.