FAWB : Ticking Time Bomb?

[VortexGen300]

On Thursday 15 May 2008 around 12:00 UTC :

I was listening to the radio and in about 5 minutes no less than 2 different aircraft did not listen to the ATC and did their own thing???:rolleyes:

The first was a helicopter crossing the active runway with aircraft rolling without clearance and the second a trainer "interpreting" the instruction by the ATC to climb from 5100 - 5600 as an inbound clearance to join downwind????:ouch:

Now really there has been considerable issues over the last few months / years but this is now getting to the point of ridicule?:=

Why are instructors letting student pilots loose if they are not able to listen to ATC? Or why are pilots and instructors doing their own thing as if ATC is not there?

Stirred
VG300

[razorback]

VG300 you are right. Its a matter of time. Certain ATC's have also been known to issue very questionable instructions to IF flights, which would have resulted in midairs had it not been for VMC. I dread every time I have to fly in there, which thankfully is not often, wondering what midair surprise awaits me and my trustworthy broomstick.
As for some of the maintenance done there - I am speechless by the things sometimes signed off ready to fly.
And then there are those guys and gals who believe themselves the greatest gift to aviation since the Wrights, who operate out of an air law manual customised individually for each of them.
Yes indeed, WB is a time bomb.

[eish]

A family member of mine is instructor at WB and has personally filed two incidents against student pilots. Also know of students "washed" by his flying school because they just couldn't cut it who just walked across to the neighbouring flying school to be gladly accepted and they are back in the air!

But I suppose we need to train for our national carrier - oops :=

[Solid Rust Twotter]

This is a general malaise, not just confined to FAWB. Why the specific mention of one airfield?

[I.R.PIRATE]

Because it are worse there.

The okies on that side of the boerewors curtain dont want to be told what to do. Like Chuck, they tell you what they are doing.:}

[Lynessa]

The reasons are obvious,
Wonderboom is the airport in South Africa which has the largest quantity of flying schools on a sigle Airport.
Mixing pilots that have no experience with General Aviation simply does not work, on top of this Wonderboom ATC is also where the Junior ATC's do their training.
This combination together with the fact that the standards of people being trained being as low as possible in order to cram in more students is a disaster waiting to happen.
Instructors need to start paying some serious attention to the students they are sending into the general aviation sector, the standards are the poorest I have ever seen.

[cavortingcheetah]

:ooh:

Perhaps one might be permitted to refer all and sundry to this link...

http://www.relta.org/icao.html

Of course, one remembers FAWB with great affection as being an airfield where no one was prepared to acknowledge that they understood what anyone other than a taalprater (?) was talking about, even were they themselves sufficiently educated to speak a language rather than the often mentioned and rather hideous, primitive African dialect.
Perhaps if the SA CAA were to make an exception in the case of FAWB and, before allowing anyone to get their Koeksistered fingers on an aircraft, require everyone to demonstrate proficiency in English to at least the standard of ICAO Level 5, there might be less incidences of attempted linguistic suicide, carefully concealed behind the drapery known so affectionately to some as the Boerewors curtain!:eek:

[Jamex]

This is a problem at FAGM as well. One of the biggest concerns is the amount of not-relevant info taking up valuable RT time and resulting in an unnecessary severe pressure burden on student pilots. The other day I flew into Rand for the first time in years. I tried calling Rand inbound and eventually get a chance on the busy airwaves only to be told "I will call you back." Three orbits over RD later and no call back, I call again only to get the same response. Another two orbits with aircraft departing under me for the GF, I call again and finally get cleared to 35 with an instruction to call on final 35. On short final and still no opportunity to make this call due to excessive radio chatter (including some idiot advising he thinks Rands QNH is wrong because his altimeter tells him this and ATC asking him what he would like the QNH to be!!) I finally get a belated "cleared to land" call from ATC when I'm already over the threshold. I have flown in various countries and in a variety of aircraft types. I was getting very frustrated in the above-mentioned scenario and can only imagine what a student pilot must feel in this environment. The type of chatter going on and the unnecessary questions from ATC to just about every a/c that called him, the huge amounts of double transmissions which are no good to man or beast, the discrepancy in performance between "ultralight" type aircraft with amazing climb rates and little forward movement over the ground vs standard Cessnas, Pipers and a few Kingairs thrown in (even a DC9) is entirely unacceptable and it is only a matter of time before we have a catastrophe. I can remember when I was a student at Rand there would be up to seven aircraft in the circuit and you could still keep track. Today I heard two aircraft in the circuit and another one calls to do circuits only to be advised by ATC that the circuit is "saturated!?" The circuit is not "saturated" only the airwaves are. If ATC themselves would cut down on all their added chatter the circuit would handle more aircraft.

[I.R.PIRATE]

Agreed so whole heartedly.

I am finding more and more that ATNS just cannot cope with more than a few aircraft at once, before they start bleating. They need to realise that its the 21st century now, and meet the expectations of those that PAY them for a service. If you can't hack it, let another service provider into the market.

Not sure if its levels of competency that have dropped or just levels of willingness to provide a decent service, but something needs to be done drastically.

The tail is starting to wag the dog in SA aviation...

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Is it possible ATC workload has increased due to excess paperwork in order to cover arses and extract fees? This would mean ATC are not able to concentrate on their primary task of controlling, instead fulfilling a function that keeps bureaucrats at "Head Office" in 4X4s and holiday homes. Never having worked in their environment, I'm able to only speculate on this but if the rest of the industry is anything to go by, this may well be the case. Fewer and fewer people can be accommodated with levels of service dropping accordingly, but those few are now required to pay more to keep an ever increasing revenue stream flowing into the coffers of ATNS.

[126,7]

Cheetah
I did most of my flight training at the Tree and I have never encountered anybody that was not able to converse in English. Worst case was the airport cleaner, but even he mastered at least a Level 4. Your references to the boerewors curtain and the hideous, primitive African dialect, are a little ridiculous. You can do better than that, I'm sure.
I think the problem is rather discipline. The students are not given the time or the necessary radio training before being let loose into the circuit or the GF. And here it doesnt matter what language the student speaks at home.....even the educated ones have trouble talking to ATC.

[flyknight]

But I suppose we need to train for our national carrier - oops := Eisch

Totally uncalled for remark.

This reflects poorly on the standard of the instructors and/or the flying school......and I can assure you that the "national carrier's" instructors will not tolerate a poor standard

[razorback]

Because it are worse there.


Eish, Those oukies, dey make de onions cry!

[HansFlyer]

I wonder why the ATC are telling people to call back in 2 or 5 or 15 minutes due to frequency congestion - just to hear 2 to 3 minutes of radio silence after the transmission?

Is this an excuse for the ATC being trained to be briefed - in other words are the pilots now also expected to pay effectively for the ATC to be trained - are the ATNS going to support the pilots for the up to R2500 per hour that goes wasted in a twin having to hold outside controlled airspace or at the holding point while ATC are chit-chatting and doing briefings?

I realise training has to be done but at the expense of the pilots and general aviation - I don't think that is on?

Hannes

[Juliet Sierra Papa]

Hi flyknight,

be careful or you may lead by example,


This reflects poorly on the standard of the instructors and/or the flying school......and I can assure you that the "national carreer's" instructors will not tollerate a poor standard!

People tend to read what they see!!!

"carreer's" carriers maybe?
"tollerate" tolerate!

Not trying to give you uphill here, just pointing out how easy a mistake can be misread.
The standards must be raised surely or there will be a very serious incident or God forbid accident due very soon.

[VortexGen300]

I can only say - I'm amazed at the poor airmanship and lack of co-operation and aggressive - I will do what I want attitudes displayed by the crowds of pilots & ATC's in this regard.

I wonder what the true issue here is?

1. Are ATC's supposed to assist pilots to fly safe?

or

2. Are pilots flying to help ATC's?

I must say I doubt no 2 as ATC only have a function because aircraft fly - But it sounds like some ATC's has the attitude that aviation exists because of them? Only thing that exists because of them is the trouble pilots have?

Now again there are pilots that have the idea that they are the best thing that has happened to earth since the creation? Sorry to pop their bubble - but we all pilots and ATC exist only because of aircraft flying - it is our duty to co-operate to make the flight as safe as possible - and not as difficult for others as possible?

Stirred????
VG300

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

FAGM was always a bit of an ATC nightmare, going back to thirty years ago.
Pilots who had trained at Rand had no trouble negotiating the ATC rigmaroles at FALA or FAJS. All other fields quiet after the mine dumps.
What of course may be a scenario for the future is one where private flying is almost entirely prevented in South Africa. This might even be a government objective, at least insofar as certain ministers might be concerned? This end could be achieved by all sorts of means, either fiscal, legislative or even punitive.
One could then end up with a few 'approved' schools, whose main function would be to train local pilots for local airline jobs and to fulfill the need for overseas airlines' training on a contractual basis. These schools would eventually and inevitably become responsible for the ATC control monitoring at the airfields from which they operated. At those airfields overseas where this sort of quality control exists, uniformity of training and fluid flow of traffic are ensured, albeit to the advantage of the so called approved schools.
Furthermore, through such means as subsidies and controls, the government is in a position to determine precisely which local students pass successfully through the system.:uhoh:

[Avi8tor]

Having spent the last few weeks back at my 'roots' at the 'boom, I wanna get my 5c worth.

FAWB has always been a training airfield and is ideal. Great runways, GFA is close and good facilities. Having done a 1000hrs of instruction there about 15yrs ago and over the last few years chopper instruction.

I have no idea why ATC now needs 'slots' for ex 12&13 and can't have more than THREE, yeah THREE!!!! in the circuit???? 15 yrs ago we had 7 in the circuit at night on a regular basis!!!

Sorry guys, don't blame the students, I refuse to believe the students have got worse in the last 15yrs.

I can honestly say that ATC, is without a doubt, the worst I have ever encountered. Case in point was last summer:-

It was before 7am and we were 3 choppers and 6 fixed wings happily doing our own thing. The siren went and this voice declared that 2 fixed wings and 1 chopper would have to make a full stop!!!

Sorry guys, get with the program or stay at home!!!

ATC needs to stop talking rubbish, and needs to listen out!!! The amount of wasted transmissions I have heard in the last 3 weeks is astounding!!!

- If I call downwind number 2, DON'T ask if I have the 1 ahead in sight.
- If I call ready for an immediate, don't ask again 30 sec later!!!!

and it goes on and on.

ATC at FAWB needs to put its ego in its pocket, and accept it needs a quantum change in attitude. Listen to what the industry is telling you!!!

If not, get Gav/Hendrik and the boys/girls back !!!

[Twinbo]

I think WB ATC should get some tips and hints from PA ATC

[Q4NVS]

I have no idea why ATC now needs 'slots' for ex 12&13 and can't have more than THREE, yeah THREE!!!! in the circuit???? 15 yrs ago we had 7 in the circuit at night on a regular basis!!!

I agree 100%

It was before 7am and we were 3 choppers and 6 fixed wings happily doing our own thing. The siren went and this voice declared that 2 fixed wings and 1 chopper would have to make a full stop!!!

That siren was "God of the Tower" plugging-in his/her microphone...:O

[Biff99]

primitive African dialect.English to at least the standard of ICAO Level 5, there might be less incidences of attempted linguistic suicide, carefully concealed behind the drapery known so affectionately to some as the Boerewors curtain
Cavortingcheetah, the cheetah is the smallest of the big cats, moet nou nie met die leeu se bal speel nie.
I have seen and heard so many questionable read backs at JNB from so called level6 experts
Which brigs to mind, how many times have you fluffed it?
Fuhter more, most English experst don't even follow the correct ICAO procedures and the terminolagy. It gets lost among the over inflated egos like your own. No wonder you're in Exíle.

[I.R.PIRATE]

Although I side with the aviators on this issue, it must also be said that I feel the shift to the majority of instructors being under the age of 21, young d%^# and full of @#$@# plays a major role.

These guys have basically only learnt how to pass a comm test, thats it, and are now teaching others the exact same thing. You cannot carry over the treasures of experience if you have none yourself. This is also creating a self-sustaining experience void in the pyramid of pilots that perpetuates from one u/21 top-gunner to the next one, and so the cycle continues.

Flying into WB regularly, I honestly feel that the ouens in ve skies needs some works on veir langooge skills, as a lot of congestion is caused by not coping with a. listening out properly, and b. battling to conceptualise instructions that deviate from the norm.

But, let me throw a spanner in the works now. Its not only at WB that ATC tries to dictate and overcontrol the airspace, its everywhere. Had to hold OUTSIDE OF THE FABL TMA the other day, FOR AN HOUR....while on an IF flightplan going into tempe. WTF chaps? Get with the program.

...so for ****s and giggles, I think we need to have a sticky template that gets pasted onto the window of EVERY tower in this country.

Remember who is there for who. We can fly without you. You can't control without us.

[Juliet Sierra Papa]

Well said I.R.PIRATE:ok:

Never a true word spoken in jest:D:D:D

[Shrike200]

The 'under 21' instructors are simply a symptom of the industry at the moment - pilots are able to move on from instruction quickly, and most can skip it altogether. It's a difficult job, poorly paid, and can be very frustrating. Hence very few seriously experienced instructors.The glut of CE pilots might slow things down a little though...

I'm all in favour of introducing an age/experience limit for instructors, ie 21 or older (or some other random age), and 1000 hrs or more total flying time (or some other arbitrary number) . That way, there will be almost no instructors (so they'll be paid more), and we'll have far fewer pilots being trained, due to greatly increased costs. More jobs for us! It's a win/win scenario! ;)

[volstruisdrol10]

Due to the closeness of our office to WB, I unfortunately have to operate out of there. Every morning an average of 30 min is wasted waiting for my little callback. The frequency is a nightmare so split them up. Most of the congestion is caused by people calling in to see if they have a chance off doing circuit training. I personally think the answer would be a ground and tower frequency.

Secondly. The trainers part.... guys, remember that first day in your little Cessna taking off for the first time and you never thought it possible to fly that plane and speak to ATC at the same time..... yes I know you all do. Its a training airport! There will always be that one or two guys having a bad day, doing the wrong thing at the wrong time. If the pressure is off everybody the little error may be corrected. We all learn through our mistakes and thats what made you who you are today so cut the guys some slack and address the real issue (Aviation is growing so should ATNS)

[boomslang]

Just to clarify. ATNS has been subsidising the service at Wonderboom for the last few years to the order of a Million plus per annum. Lay the blame where it needs to be laid and don't blame the ATC's for the restriction on the frequency due to the contract that stipulates 8 on frequency. They have no choice in the matter.

ATNS cannot help that the rest of the commercial aviation fraternity does not want us to subsidise the training airports. CAA almost suspended ATNS's licence at Wonderboom because the airport cannot provide the minimum required Met equipment. QNH is read inside the tower at the back of the console. Wind speed and direction is measured on the tower roof. The radio equipment belongs to the Metro and has not been replaced since 1992.

We have to make a phone call the JHB approach for each and every IF starter and also for their release. In the last year the IF flights have doubled. Not to mention the phone calls to and from Rand, Waterkloof, Lanseria, Central and Swartkop to liaise your flights between us and them. Also remember that there are only 4 ATC's so this means that there is only 1 person on duty doing all of this. Movement wise Wonderboom reduced a little in training flights due to the training restriction but still manages only 30 movements a day less than Rand. This with an average of less than 40 percent utilisation of the useable slots by the ATO's. Don't forget that you don't book a slot with the tower each ATO has his own allocated slots that he can use. That is the training movements accounted for but in Total movements Wonderboom is No2 in the country to JHB with Rand a close 3rd. (Yes Athol, Rand also counts training flights as 2 movements so too does every other ATNS unit in SA just as they do in the States, OZ and the rest of the world, but I'm sure your "study" will also reflect this).

AVI8TOR
You are right a few years ago there were quite a few more in the circuit but then you had people like Q4, Henry, Kakemas and the late Charles as instructors that actually could do more than 1 thing at a time. The quality of SPL's that went solo was of a high standard and we hardly had to work to keep 5 happy in the circuit. These days I work my ass off with only 3 in the circuit as the basics aren't taught.

Now you clear someone in from the GF directly onto the base and he f's it up and joins early downwind. Ask a person for his endurance and he responds that he "are flying a 172". Ask him again and he says "yes". Change the runway from 29 to 11 and ask 2 solo students to do a 180 on the downwind and they both do 360 orbits and continue on the downwind for 29. Students call their aircraft callsigns as "Indigo Wiki Ester".

If someone does report the traffic in sight and you tell him to follow him to final he ends up turning in ahead of the traffic he reported in sight. Yes you can sometimes missident traffic but when you are only 2 in the circuit then it is not so funny anymore. Students think it's a joke if they go onto the runway without a clearance. What was it "I am just a student I didn't know". Yes you didn't know beacuse you weren't taught that this is life or death and not a game.

Spoke to a wanabe instructor yesterday who can't believe that what he is learning to teach others is what he should have been taught in the first instance. WTF?

We have CTR violations daily runway incursions every other day and altitude busts is a common occurence. The circuit is flown between 4800 and 5500 feet which necessitates the odd avoiding action from those that actually fly at 5100 feet but who cares it's just Wonderboom and the ATC's are the D$#ks.

Yes Avi8tor bring back the good old days I just hope it's sooner rather than later. Walked into the tower the other day just in time to hear 2 helicopter pilots KaK theselves as a Seneca departed off runway 24 with both of them at 4800feet on the left downwind for 29. Missed them both by an ants ballhair and he did not even acknowledge their existence. Must have had the radio on the other frequency. Just like the time he landed a Van at night on 11 with 29 active with 4 in the circuit. That time he blamed the co-pilot for not selecting Wonderboom's frequency wonder what the excuse would be this time. Then he thought it was unmanned never mind it was 6pm in the middle of the week.

Or the crop duster that departs and lands on 06 in the middle of the night (After ATC hours) with 4 in the circuit on runway 29. No problem you might say. Only thing is there are no lights on 24/06 and instead of 06 he was a little confused and he landed on 24. probably saw the landing light of the one on final so he decided to turn left to reposition on final for 24 and give the one a chance to land. Ended up missing the one on downwind by a few feet and then proceeded to land on 24 passing just ahead of another on crossing the threshold of 29. At least he was doing all his radio calls for 06 perfectly.

I for one would not miss Wonderboom if ATNS was to leave I just hope you have full life insurance as you may need it when we are gone.

[Flameboy]

Boomie, I think you've had enough. Maybe you should think about leaving... ;)

[Avi8tor]

Hey - all instructors are at the bottom of the food chain and have always been in the 'under 21 with 200hrs group', I was.

I ask again, if you are short staffed, why all the talking rubbish on the radio? I seem to remember there was always only 4 controllers at the 'boom????

Expidite the traffic!!!! Scrap slots as a rubbish idea!!! Leave the choppers alone, only time you need to be interested in them is for the auto's.

Its time for a big meeting with the industry, and ATC do the LISTENING!!!!

[kismed]

fantastic idea! I've been reading all the complaints and sounds like a huge comms gap. Everybody's got problems, boo-hoo. How about solving some together rather than pointing "the finger". Doesn't look like thats been helping.

WTF lets blame ATC, pilots, Metro, SA, the world. I have the answer and everyody else is stuuuupid.:}

Almost forgot to say that : " I'm the bomb";)

[razorback]

I have the answer and everyody else is stuuuupid

Exactly THIS, is the problem. An attitude of such conceit, visitors feel the vibe immediately. Yes, the other airports are busy, and have their problems, but WB is in a class of its own when it comes to attitude.
:=

[126,7]

Lay the blame where it needs to be laid and don't blame the ATC's for the restriction on the frequency due to the contract that stipulates 8 on frequency

Boomslang
Would you care to explain that sentence? Who came up with that magical number? Its not that many aeroplanes....Is that rule followed by all the ATCOs or do some ignore it?

[boomslang]

126,7

8 is the aiming point and one does take into consideration that you may have 5 departures and 4 inbounds that will be off the frequency in less than 10 minutes. So you'll allow 2 or so more on frequency. Having an aiming point in stead of a limited number of movements per hour is a lot more achievable. Busy hours are normally anything between 70 and 100+ and to try and keep a score on the amount already handled would be impossible in any case.

[Shrike200]

Well, I for one appreciate the ATC's point of view, thanks Boomslang. It always helps to have some perspective. And I agree that it sounds like some radio procedures and basic flying skills could do with improvement. Like you say, it's not a game, and lately I've seen some attitudes that need an adjustment in that regard.

[Q4NVS]

"Indigo Wiki Ester"

That is funny (and Sad...)

Boomslang - Think it's time you moved on/up and let those Idiots of Tshwane Metro sort out their own crap.

Will be listening out for your voice in the near future...:ok:

[boomslang]

Ja I reckon it's time for a move. JS or even CT is not going to be far enough thought...;) It's either way South or way North (past the land of sand) for me.

[controll pannel]

Heard from one of my mates thad a small plane just came down at Wonderboom, can any-one confirm this for us(my mate also heard it.):ouch:

[hoendertjie]

Unfortunately its true. Just after 12:30 an Aztec lost an engine and suffered a wing drop. Apparently the pilot is in critical condition. Just hope that he will be okay.

[RadarMaggot]

And please also note who was responsible for pressing that big red button that makes the siren go off for the emergency services...

ATC's also heard what their increase will be this year - so expect a lot of 'happy' voices on the air... :ugh: :yuk: :*

[The Actuator]

Hey Maggot,
You do your self, your profession and your peers a disservice by soliciting praise for simply doing your job – pushing the big red button is your job nothing more nothing less, it is what you are paid to do.

It sounds like somebody has had an accident - show some restraint in puffing up your chest and try to walk a mile in the victim’s shoes.

[Shrike200]

I believe his tone was more 'you see, we all have a part to play in this', perhaps partly as a counterpoint to a great deal of the rest of the thread, which was more the pilot-centric idea that 'they (ATC) exist because of us (uber-cool Pilots)'.

Again, we should be on the same side. Believe me, having worked up north, you really need somebody in the tower pressing the red button, hopefully with some well trained people responding. And his point regarding salaries is important too. Shortstaffing, high staff turnover (and therefore inexperienced personnel) are the result of badly planned career paths and salaries by the managers who should have the foresight to know better.

[RadarMaggot]

Hey Actuator

I was not trying to be disrespectful - but hear me out:

We need pilots to fly for us have a job :ok:

Pilots don't need us to fly their plane, BUT you do need us to stop banging into each other when you get about 20+ planes inside JS TMA heading for the same destination.

Don't get me wrong as if I'm trying to boast about it. Yes, it was a lot easier a few years back, but there weren't so many planes about at that time. Flights numbers are still getting higher (despite our economy) and the ATC's are trying their best to cope with the tools at hand.

Some more CV's went very recently overseas, and a few already have starting dates... The people who are staying behind still have to pull the rabbit out of the hat each time they sit down and HQ are of the opinion that we are not indispensable... Well, :ugh:...

Come 2010, bad news for ATC's and pilots.

But to come back to the point, everyone in aviation needs to be professional about their job - manufacturers, maintenance, training, emergency services etc. Trying to badmouth one of these and you are looking for trouble because they are all very proud in what they do.

Take it up with the Managers (with their employees in the same room to avoid getting fed bullsh:mad:) to fix the problem. All our hands are tied and we MUST follow procedures - 5nm & 1000' are not negotiable; although they use less (safely) in other places, we havn't caught up with that yet and it's not our fault!

Fly safe and enjoy it, always! :)