Dress Code [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

Rhodes13

11th May 2008, 21:23

How about instructors that have no idea what they are teaching.. all ex RAN RAF you name it and thus its an old boys club. If you arent ex military or English then you are below them!

The double standards between modular and integrated, the extortionate prices they charge for the stupid courses when Bristol and some wise planning would save you a hell of a lot of money.

And to top it off lies and lies about your chances of a job. Mind you not that this in unique to Oxford but i think they truly do believe what they tell you which is worrying.

Overall I wasn't impressed when I was there and I've heard it got worse.

To top it off I made it to the wall of people THEY had found work for. Unfortunately they didn't ask to use my name and forgot to tell everyone that I did all the work off my own back!

bajadj

11th May 2008, 21:24

VFR.

Well, I would say that A hilton hotel is in general better than a travelodge.

Partly because the Hilton hotel is more expensive and gives a higher class product. Also lets say the travelodge would say cater for 100 guests at a time and fills it's rooms with 100 guests. For arguements sake lets say the Hilton caters for 500 guests. The Hilton would need more and sometimes better facilities than the travelodge. The Hilton fills it's quota of 500 and everyone is happy.

Now lets say the travelodge sticks to it's capacity of 100 guests but the Hilton decides to pile 2000 guests into it's hotel thus stretching it's capacity to almost breaking point, so much so that it's private study areas are now being used as classrooms and the carparking situation is just stupid as they are digging up the already too small car park.

maybe the travelodge becomes a more appealing option.

bajadj

11th May 2008, 21:36

Rhodes13 don't hold back now!!!

I actually agree with most of what Rhodes said. I'm starting my final week of groundschool tomorrow and i can't wait to get out of here. Rhodes is absolutely spot on about the glaring double standards between integrated and modular. OAA will swear until they are blue in the face that CBR and APP courses are treated the same in groundschool..THEY AREN'T. It astounds me that OAA won't admit it. Actually a good example is uniform, you will see mods with bits of uniform missing as the stuff that they have orderred was given to an integrated student.

As for the instruction, in fairness i thought it was pretty good. Some of the instructors are absolutely brilliant. I found two, however to be very very poor. 1 in each phase. This is two too many. Also Rhodes13 is right, some of the instructors do witter on about military crap far too much, do they not realised that if i wanted to hear about the military i would have bloody joined the military!!

Also EVERY single OAA student I know uses the bristol database for JAA exam prep and not oxcel, that should tell you something. If i had my time over i would have done bristol distance learning or somewhere less like a boarding school.

chrisbl

11th May 2008, 21:44

Rhodes 13

Overall I wasn't impressed when I was there and I've heard it got worse.

I understand they think just as highly of you too.

Rhodes13

11th May 2008, 21:58

Chrisbl did I upset the rocking cart?

Why bother some people cant see the forest from the trees.

But hey if you want to spend all your money at a second rate flying school go right ahead.

But hey ho I could at least say I've been to Oxford and rub one out at the thought that BA will be calling me soon for a job!!!

Back to the uniform. Yes you do have to wear one. Yes it boring but think of it this way, at least you dont have to decide what to wear in the morning. Choice made!:ugh::ugh:

leeds 65

11th May 2008, 23:12

It looks pathetic and stupid when people with f all hours learning how to fly are wearing a uniform with epaulettes and those bloody ray bans!!!!
Imagine your in a shop and a random person asks what airline you fly for!!!!!Ans=oh eh im getting instruction in a 2 seat piece of crap with a broken heater and dodgy radio!!!Sounds stupid doesnt it
If you work for a company than fine other than that wearing a uniform is a no no but hey rules are rules and if oaa want it then u gotta do it.

David Horn

11th May 2008, 23:28

Imagine your in a shop and a random person asks what airline you fly for!!!!!Ans=oh eh im getting instruction in a 2 seat piece of crap with a broken heater and dodgy radio!!!

Actually, I found it deeply insulting when I walked past a little kid who, pointing at me and tugging his mother's hand, said, "Mummy, mummy, look at that policeman..." ;-)

Whirlygig

11th May 2008, 23:37

Actually, I found it deeply insulting when I walked past a little kid who, pointing at me and tugging his mother's hand, said, "Mummy, mummy, look at that policeman..." ;-)
Why, as a student, should it be insulting to be mistaken for a policeman?

Anyway guys, get over it - we all wear uniforms; every day! Whatever your situation, you wear a uniform. And if you don't understand that, you have a wee bit to learn about human nature!!!

Cheers

Whirls

Beethoven

12th May 2008, 01:54

As a policeman, I too find it deeply insulting that you were mistaken for one.

Artie Fufkin

12th May 2008, 08:22

Good god, its only a uniform!

I remember being out in Arizona. One day I was flying with my instructor and was going to buy something after I finished the lesson and asked his advise where to go to get it. He mentioned somewhere so I said;

"cool, I'll go home, get changed and head out".

"Why not stop off on the your way home?"

"Well I have to get changed out of my uniform"

"Why?"

"Because everyone will think I'm a total w*nker for parading round in my unform"

Americans clearly have a different, and more sensible, attitude towards uniforms judging from his reaction.

Adios

12th May 2008, 09:03

Finally!

A thread that provides more comic relief than "Evidence that the downturn is finally upon us."

Just what we need to get us through the PPRuNe summer slowdown!

A and C

12th May 2008, 10:13

I was standing in a hotel lobby in Memphis with the Captain and First Officer (me being the Flight Engineer) whan a lady approaches the Captain and ask's him to take her bags to her room!

Ever the gent "fast eddy" takes her bags up to the room and on return just smiles at us and says "the five Dollar tip will cover breakfast!"

Superpilot

12th May 2008, 11:03

Ever the gent "fast eddy" takes her bags up to the room and on return just smiles at us and says "the five Dollar tip will cover breakfast!"

Wow! I actually remember you telling this same story/joke whatever it is about 5 years ago! :ok:

Lawn Mower

12th May 2008, 11:46

What would happen if you turned up at OAT in your jeans and refused to wear a uniform?
Would they kick u out?
Has anybody ever tried it?

What is the general consensus at OAT, do you boys and girls like wearing the uniforms or is it a pain in the neck?

Rhyspiper

12th May 2008, 12:04

If the kid had have called me a traffic warden, a taxman or even Hitler I would turn the other cheek being a little kid and all.

Had he called me a policeman......:eek: I would have left him in a world of pain.

chrisbl

12th May 2008, 12:27

:eek:Rhodes 13

Chrisbl did I upset the rocking cart?

Not at all. I was being ironic but if you are too dull to see it thats your problem.

Kerosine

12th May 2008, 14:14

Overall I wasn't impressed when I was there and I've heard it got worse.
I understand they think just as highly of you too.

Not at all. I was being ironic but if you are too dull to see it thats your problem.

You two had a fallout or something? No need for that IMO chris, or was you last comment supposed to be ironic as well? :rolleyes:

Shunter

12th May 2008, 14:23

I fail to see how wearing a uniform aids you in any way, shape or form during training. Unneccessary corporate branding and pretentious bollocks.

Fine, if you're a pro pilot you wear a uniform. The public expect to see a smartly turned out crew flying their aircraft. But for training? Load of ****e in my opinion. A uniform doesn't help you fly the aircraft any better.

I don't fly for a living, but I do have a well paid job which requires professionalism. If I have meetings with outside execs and other such important folks, fine, I'll wear a suit as in those instances the impression matters. When I've got an easy day and I'm just sat around in the office, I'll put on a pair of jeans and a shirt. Uniforms for the sake of uniforms is stupid.

Kerosine

12th May 2008, 14:39

The purpose of the uniform is to help make the organisation or company look more professional. That's why uniforms are there, regardless of whether you are a pilot, policeman, nurse or indeed a pilot in training. Do you not think that OAT, OAA, FTE, CTC know the airlines are looking for the professional looking, clean cut cadet?

I suppose the other purpose (less obvious/measurable) would be it gets the students in a 'working' mindset where they feel like they are doing a job. Suppose it gives you pride in what you're doing (cynics, you'll have a field day with this one:}).

captain_rossco

12th May 2008, 14:57

This thread is beyond the realms of immaturity I thought even the newest and youngest Pruners were capable of.
Oxford is a proffessional outfit, you work, you win, you don't work, you lose, big time.

Now given the £25 outlay for epaulettes, shirt and tie (the only compulsory items, surely everyone one the planet has black or blue trousers) I think that the cost does not even factor into the £40-60k you'll be spending on flight training at OAA. The shirt needn't be an OAA one so that rules out the advertising, and as for being mistaken for a policeman, well, if that bothers you.............

Now as for the need for the uniform you'll be hard pressed to find a good institution that doesn't have you wearing it at some point of your training, and its the same winy fools complaing about this uniform, that would be pointing at Tom Dick or Harry for being too smart, too flash or too scruffy if there wasn't one.

Get a life.

Mikehotel152

12th May 2008, 16:36

:} A lot of things about OAA are pretentious, but if you've chosen OAA above all the other options for training I would have expected that a requirement to wear a uniform would rank quite low on your list of concerns.

bajadj

12th May 2008, 16:42

couldn't agree more MikeHotel. As I stated earlier, the uniform is the last thing you should be concerned about. It really isn't a big deal, you forget you're wearing it after the first week and you blend in and become another jelly mould pilot that oxford create.... I am not a number...I am a free man!!!! well i will be in three weeks when it's all over. Til then it's TS0011!!

cfwake

12th May 2008, 21:55

I have to say that I find it amusing that so many people have such strong opinions about such a minor thing. Is it THAT insulting to make you do so? If you don't want to wear a uniform, then don't go to ANY of the schools that make you do so. If, however, you're even just barely capable of seeing past this requirement, then perhaps you can concentrate on the more important and less futile aspects of pass rates and quality of instruction.

Anyone with kids at private school? I dare say quite a few - you pay a significant amount of money to send them there and yet the cheeky swines STILL make them wear unform!! What an absolute disgrace!

Get over it guys, there are bigger issues in this world. In my experience, there are very few people out there that actually care in the slightest about wearing a uniform.

And Lawn Mower, just for the record, as you can probably guess, no-one really cares here!

3Greens

13th May 2008, 08:14

i seem to remember back in the 90's you had diferant colour epaulettes depending on what stage of the training programme you were on.
The uniform served a purpose - no ar5e1ng about in the morning deciding what to wear, no oil/fuel strains on your own jeans etc...

And on a personal note i though it made me "get into work mode" and actually looked pretty smart and professional.
Don't see the problem myself - if you don't want to wear the uniform and are getting your knickers in a twist over such a trivial matter then important things like exams and flying are going to tip you over the edge- good luck :ugh:

SpamFritters

13th May 2008, 12:42

The epaulettes at oxford are different depending on what stage you are on - they serve a purpose.
If you have such a big problem with uniform - go somewhere that doesn't make you wear one.
And why shouldn't the integrated students at OAA be treated better.... seems to me like their bill is considerably larger!

If you are in this for the ability to look good in your own clothes everyday.. maybe you are thinking about the wrong career?

bajadj

13th May 2008, 13:02

I don't have a huge problem with oaa integrated students being treated better than modular ones as you rightly point out they do pay a lot more, however what i do have a problem with is oaa telling lies when they tell modular students that they will be treated exactly the same as integrated students whilst on groundschool. They're not and OAA are lying. That is the problem i have. Whilst we're being pedantic then the PPL modular students should have OAA PPL epaulletes to distinguish themselves from the integrated students who have never flown a plane in their lives no??

Adios

13th May 2008, 13:25

The day airline recruiters quit walking the halls of FTO's is the day they could consider dropping uniforms. As long as FTO's have a chance of those recruiters hiring their output or sending a cadet programme their way, they will insist their students look the professional part they wish to play. This seems entirely reasonable to me.

ford cortina

13th May 2008, 17:13

Just to add two pennies worth.
For my CPL and ME I had to wear uniform, I did not like it, but thats the way life is. It was my won choice to go to this school and therefore I could not complain.

However spamfritters last post of how OAA intergrated should be better treated than their fellow students on Modular sums up everything I dislike about OAA. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

bajadj

13th May 2008, 18:06

wingo I am a modular student and I finish on thursday so there isn't a great deal of point in complaining now. Although when we have complained about things, in general the management have listened and in some cases sorted it out. A case in point is that 8 of our course were told that they would have to sit their exams in gatwick as there was no room at oxford. Obviously we whinged about it and to be fair, it has been sorted out. The problem is though, why was it only modular students getting bumped in the first place?? If mods and ints are treated the same in groundschool (which they still trot out on the first day) then why was it not 4 mods and 4 ints in the first place??

I actually feel for the management on the instruction side of it as a lot of the problems aren't really their fault..It's the pure greed of putting on too many courses with too many students which stretches the resources to breaking point. From what I've heard it's even worse on the flying side of things in AZ which is why i wouldn't touch waypoint with a bargepole.

The sad thing is that the integrated students are so reliant on their "school report" to get recommended for interview that they are scared to speak out against the company line for fear of it scuppering their chances after spending 62k so it's up to modulars to tell it like it is.

It's up to every individual to make up their own mind about which FTO to train at, and I say again for those who think i have some kind of vendetta against OAA, the groundschool instructors are on the whole very good. I think I mention before that only 2 of my instrustors i considerred to be poor (one of which is complained about by just about every course so why the hell he is still there is a mystery to me).

Anyway, it's almost over for me but for whose who haven't chosen this is just one of many views to be taken into account. Some people loved the place, I'm not one of them.

captain_rossco

13th May 2008, 18:10

I don't think mod students have a worse time of it that integrated at OAA at all, and I'm really trying think of an occasion when i have been shelved or back burnered in favour of an int student.

As far as the comments "why shouldn't int students be treated better, they pay more", well that would just be bad, bad business practice. If me and a friend buy 2 differently priced items from the same shop, I'd expect the same customer service regardless.

Fact is, once you arrive at OAA and you've already given them your money, whats to stop them treating us ALL like sh1t! You ask them for something, they sort it for you.

I'm a moddy at OAA and have been very, very happy with things. As with any business relationship (which is what it is), it's pretty important to forge decent relationships with staff from the outset, go and say hello for goodness sake, show them a face to the name!

Peace out.:ok:

leeds 65

13th May 2008, 18:22

listen listen we all know that if you go to an fto that requires uniform than you must go through the motions.In a job for an airline etc you do the exact same you wear it.

HOWEVER in my view wearing of the uniform before you get a job looks silly(even though you wear it).I cannot honestly believe people when they say that its ok.:ugh:

Its hilarious to see a group of wannabes with gold bars on there shoulders,ray bans,black tie,shiny shoes etc having just finished an hour long pa28 flight learning how to talk to atc.Half of them think there TOP GUN !

If you have to wear than do it however nobody can say that it looks ok in fact it looks funny and :yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk:!!!!!!!

leeds 65

13th May 2008, 19:13

wingo as i said when i start my type rating with someone and they want me to wear a uniform i will no problem.but its still stupid,thick,pretentious, etc etc.i did all my flight training in bloody tracksuits and jeans,t shirts ,shorts etc and im sure im a much better pilot than most TOP GUN guys.

I WILL WEAR A UNIFORM but its silly until your flying with a company.wearing a uniform is NOT silly when you have earned the proper right to, in a company.

Thank you

P.S definition of TOP GUN as per collins dictionary= a prat kitted out WHO ENJOYS IT AND THINKS IT LOOKS COOL WITH F ALL EXPERIENCE :{

P.S the TOP GUN definition does not apply to guys who think it looks odd but have to do it because of a thick policy :D

Im really taking the p##s now!come on all you TOP GUNS stand up, you know who you are :\

Lurking123

13th May 2008, 19:16

Leeds, I'm a military man. I have worn uniform (school or RAF) for the last 37 years. Uniform encourages group identity, team ethos, camaraderie and a sense of pride (albeit the Rayban factor in certain environments). Ryanair, BA, FlyBe, Virgin etc also insist on uniform for the same reasons, although they may use different terminology such as "Brand".

Uniform only "looks funny" to those who do not understand what the wearing of uniform is meant to achieve. I hope we sit together on a flight deck in the future so that you can demonstrate your superior flying skills that were acquired whilst wearing your Armani jeans, Crocs and a stained T-shirt.

PS. Speak with true aviators, such as Polly Vacher and Q Smith, and they will tell you that a bit of Captain play acting gets you a very long way in countries other than the UK.

PPS. I presume you wore uniform at school. Why?

ford cortina

13th May 2008, 19:23

Now hold on a min wingo, when I did my IR it was summer in Bournemouth, guess what, a friend and I wore bermuda shorts and tee shirts, cheap ones from ASDA so we could bin them when finished. I was a lot more comfortable in them with my trainers and some of the other students followed suit.
Did it affect my performance...
NO First time pass, doing the dreaded Exeter route! Now I drive a B737 NG in Africa and my friend is a BAe146 pilot with lots of hours. SO don't come that holy'er than thou ****.
For my MCC Jeans and trainers again. IR Test and Type Rating, Trousers and shirt. Now when I am in the sim, linen trousers, soft cotton shirt and comfy shoes.

I am sick and tired of knowalls saying you need this that or the other inorder to pass. All you need is the right attitude and if you need clothes to do that then somthing is wrong.:ugh:

Just to add wing, what is a 'fast jet pilot' as far as I am aware there are no passenger jet's that can do Mach 1 or more any longer.

leeds 65

13th May 2008, 19:24

Lurking your correct in much of what you say.I agree with wearing of the uniform when WORKING. Personally i feel it looks odd when a guy/gal with 1 ppl hour is kitted out from head to toe!

At company stage its fine no problem,then i suppose you have a small right to flaunt it,but not when training im sorry.

Dont get me wrong i like wearing good clothes,but in the right circumstances

SpamFritters

13th May 2008, 19:38

Ok Chaps.. sorry for that comment in my previous post.. was just aimed to stir it up a bit really. Of course people should be fairly treated if that is what they say on the tin.:E

Anyway.
I just DO NOT see the point in certain members GOING ON so strongly about wearing a uniform.. how the students think they are top gun etc etc... when you have DONE your training YOUR way....

If you have got past that stage.. then fine. Why not go and do your job and leave others be... it is just utterly pointless to go on about it.. and the fact you keep going on about it almost seems like you are envious of them getting to wear uniforms - which I am sure is not the case.

I like uniform. I think it is a good way of creating a team spirit. Especially when everyone has one set goal.. but that is personally who I am. If you don't like it.. you can just do it a different way - it is your money at the end of the day!!

Anyway.. a lot of these posts are just coming over as you resenting the people who wear uniform - especially those at OAA. Which just seems silly. If you don't like it.. don't give them your money :ok:

ford cortina

13th May 2008, 19:42

Last post, I promise:ok:
Spam mate, am I not allowed to vent my opinion, just as you are doing right now? and have done in many of your previous posts???????

ford cortina

13th May 2008, 19:56

Okay so not my last post!!!

1. I never said that I did my IR Test in Shorts.
2. If you look a bit further back in this thread, you will see that for my CPL and MEP I did wear a uniform.
3. I cannot see any reason why you would want to wear one during PPL training, end of.
4. Sorry if I upset you, I have no attitude problem (I can fly straight and level), I am sure you don't have problems either.
5. I never said that it should be forced on anyone.
6. You pays your money and you take your choice.
7. Now can we both please stop this sillyness.:D

Kerosine

13th May 2008, 20:08

Calm down pruners...:hmm:

Half of you are arguing for the validity of wearing a uniform, fair enough, it may have it's advantages in getting you in a professional mindset, it may not affect you at all.

The other half are saying that a uniform doesn't necessarily make you a better pilot.

You're essentially arguing different points, and if you were to ask the question "Do you believe that wearing a uniform has a direct and measurable effect on the performance of a pilot in training?", almost all of you would say either 'no' or 'depends on the individual'.

Likewise, if you were to ask "Do you understand why FTOs have a uniform?", I bet you would all give the same bloody answer!

Is there any issue you disagree on or are you arguing for different questions?

G SXTY

13th May 2008, 20:11

This is a very entertaining thread. If wearing a uniform during training bothers you, go to a school that doesn't require one.

Where I trained for the CPL/IR, uniforms were optional. Most people chose to wear them, and they looked - and generally acted - more like professional pilots than the students in T-shirts and jeans. The school recommended students to airlines based on their flying ability and professionalism - think about it.

Most importantly, now I'm employed by an airline, I have loads and loads of spare shirts left over from training. Which means I only have to do the washing and ironing every couple of weeks. :ok:

captain_rossco

13th May 2008, 20:11

OAA goodyear is fine, here at the moment (in my uniform) and loving it! Flying when we're supposed to and have not felt the 50 person double course has had any affect at all on a/c availability.
Good show all around and would highly recommend the place. Wouldn't want to be Mod anywhere else. (Oh, except maybe Bristol Flying Centre, set up there is fookin' awesome).

Happy flying (whatever you're wearing)

Shiver me timbers!

13th May 2008, 20:40

I'm for uniform - I think students should also be made to wear a jacket, hat, i.d. badges, and carry all their belongings in a black case :)

On a serious note, I agree with Lurking123. In my non-flying experience, work-rates certainly tend to drop when the dress policy goes from formal to casual.

A and C

14th May 2008, 06:45

I wonder if you guys can help a friend of mine, he? is having an identity crisis and would like to know if the OAT womans uniform would look OK on him err ........her ?

So perhaps one of you would be kind enough to let him/her have some details of the womans dress code at OAT and help her to find out if Oxford is a place that she would feel comfortable.

mustflywillfly

14th May 2008, 08:25

So you saying leeds 65 that all the FTO's should get rid of the uniform policy? Me personally thinks it does serve a purpose for the reasons people have stated before me. Do think the guys training to eventually becoming fast jet pilots when they have low hours should turn up in jeans and shirt?? I don't think so they also have it for a reason!!

Chap, If you made a fast jet pilot wear his uniform in the cockpit he would tell you to shove it on god knows how many different grounds from looking a total dork to health and safety.

All mil aircrew wear flying coveralls (grow bags) when flying (and most of the time for that matter!) neither do they wear headgear post flight line. I for one spent 4 years in a grow bag and when I wasn't I wore jeans and a shirt! I may have worn my uniform once or twice in this time.

I personally think all aviators should wear grow bags. They are fire retardent and a hell of a lot more comfortable then polyester trousers a shirt and a tie.

A and C, I believe the female cadets at OAA wear stockings, suspenders and a hat. Oh yes and 7 bar gold epaulettes glued to their naked shoulders. :E

Lurking123

14th May 2008, 08:31

musty, most military aviators class their grow bags as uniform and are only too quick to ensure they are wearing the right badges.:ok:

4 Years? You must of made it out of nappies, just. ;)

Meanwhile, back at the slightly less surreal "downturn on the up" thread........

PS. Wholeheartedly agree on the practicality of a one piece nomex suit with lots of convenient pockets.