Yanks in the Falklands War?

[Jetex Jim]

Say it aint so.

Generally its an article of faith that the Falklands Conflict was won by Britain and Britain alone, but when I was in Wichita in 1982 a USAF tanker bod told me that some of their aircraft were involved supporting the war effort. Later in Oklahoma City I heard the same story again from another tanker crewman.

Given the prodigious use of tankers to support Black Buck flights the need for a bit of help doesn't seem too unlikely, and given that booms can carry a drogue add on.

However non of the books on the conflict that I've seen mention non-RAF tankers.

[ZH875]

There were no non-RAF tankers on Ascension throughout the duration, just Victors.

[VinRouge]

I believe they supplied some "Int", was on a programme all about the argies trying to procure more exocets from the frogs during the conflict.
Was a good proggie too.

[XV277]

They helped in that extra KC-135s were deployed to the UK to take over the NATO IFR commitments from the Victor force.

[blimey]

Supplied AIM 9Ls.

[Megaton]

And F5s to simulate Exocets. Apparently, we asked if we could "borrow" the AIM 9Ls. CC 8th AF asked if that meant he'd get them back. Answer was a "no." :)

[ZH875]

A few Shrike missiles were obtained for the Vulcans.

[wiggy]

I'm not sure the US of A directly supplied AIM 9-Ls, as in shipping them to the Task Force, so to speak. AFAIR and I'm definitely open to correction, we ( UK F-4 force) had just begun receiving the Limas to replace our 9G's when the War started. Once the decision was made to send the Task Force our nice shiney 9L's were whipped out of the bomb dumps pretty darn smartly and sent down South. Again AFAIR we were left either with our old 9-Gs for a while or a reduced number of 9-Ls', I can't remember exactly. I know that atleast one of the F-4 QWI's of the era drops in here from time to time - he'll probably put me straight.

All really a question of semantics I know but probably v v important from the political side of things.

We did have assistance from the American's when we had some entertaining RHAG Cable problems at Stanley post the War ( RHAG 1, F-4 nil), but again the American prescence was kept fairly low key.

[ninja-lewis]

Perhaps they helped support US flights to Ascension? There were quite a few USN tankers (of the sea going variety) diverted to Ascension plus I expect other delivers could have been made by air.

[gareth herts]

I'm sure Sharkey Ward mentions that the crates had Bitburg AFB hastily crossed out when they arrived on board.

[Dan Winterland]

I don't reckon an large aircraft (Victor or Vulcan) could successfuly use the Boom Drogue Adapter (BDA) fitted to the KC135 to allow a probe equipped aircraft to refuel from it. The process is hard enough for a more manoeuvreable fighter.

[jammydonut]

There are still rumours about Americans being shot or captured who were fighting with the Argentines:ouch:

[Archimedes]

Never conclusively proven, and there's a strong suspicion that the American accents were nothing more than Argentine troops with a good standard of English who'd spent some time in the US or who'd been taught the language by someone with an American accent.

As far as US cooperation at Ascension goes, there was a piece by AVM Ron Dick somwhere about his experience of how willing the Americans were to provide support - we're talking massive shipments of fuel and a refusal on their part to say 'Don't think we can' preferring to say 'Interesting challenge' shortly followed by delivery - I'll try and find it.

Edit: Page 73 onwards of this pdf file (http://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/Publications/fulltext/seeing_off_the_bear.pdf)

[Milarity]

I seem to remember a very good series on TV some years afterwards that mentioned a mid-Atlantic rendezvous during the first mad dash south, when the USN cross-decked anything asked for on the understanding that Pentagon approval would probably follow!

[doubledolphins]

There is a story that the US offered the RN a Carrier with out crew, or air wing. Of course we could not take them up on the offer. Officialy all personnel were UK citizens. Though of course there were some chaps from Hong Kong down there. Canberra had to pay off her usual crew and sail for the only time in her history with a crew comprising of UK citizens. (They came under the NDA once hostilities comenced.) Subsequently I did meet an Aussie para officer who had neglegently not returned home and had "stoped one in the leg" (sic) for his pains.

[wiggy]

Agreed...refueling of the short hose drogue on the KC-135 could be tricky..indeed I know someone :O who dented the intake ramp of an F-4 when they got the kink in the the short hosed drogue of the KC-135 wrong. The hose whipped round and clobbered the fixed, forward portion of the intake ramp...gave the back seater a shock, I understand he said :mad::mad:

As for doing it with a Vulcan or a Victor:ooh:.....

[Archimedes]

DD - carrier story is perfectly true. Confirmed by John Nott and Admiral Leach at an seminar (unclas and transcript in public domain) at the Staff College in 2002.

[airborne_artist]

I think there were a couple of Canadians down there too - but in RN uniform. I went through BRNC with one - he had UK grandparents so qualified as a Brit IIRC.

[microlight AV8R]

I do seem to recall reports at the time indicating that a lot of weaponry was drawn from stocks 'declared to NATO'. Agreement of allies was needed before they could be used elsewhere....... Apparently.

Also, didn't the chaps from across the channel come over with their Mirages and help the harriers get acquainted.... Over the welsh ranges if I remember correctly.

To those of you who took part, thanks for making me proud to be British.

[Dan Winterland]

From a VC10. That's as close as we got!


http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb73/dbchippy/bda.jpg





IIRC, in the late eighties or early ninties, some guy in the Paras mentioned in a written account that his unit had captured some American Mercenaries fighting with the Argentinean forces on Mt Longden. He said that they were taken away by some of his colleagues and shot. Special Branch subsequently investigated this claim but found no evidence to support it.

[rolling20]

I think i read somewhere..possibly Vulcan 607?! that the U.S. provided a Tanker moored off of Ascension , to provide enough fuel for the Black Missions. Without it the Bombing of Stanley would never have taken place

[wiggy]

Using "Stocks declared to NATO"... Yep, That's pretty much my understanding of how we in the UK "lost" our 9-Ls for a while.....

[niknak]

Like it or not Ladies and Gentlemen, there is no doubt that the UK had "tacit" assistance from the U.S. during the Falklands War.
This may not have come as direct military logistical help, but given the tight political relationship between Thatcher and Regan at the time, intelligence and political pressure would have been made available at every opportunity.
Go back to the time of the conflict and examine how many countries publicly supported Argentina, there were very few (aside from the cowardly communists and cowardly Frogs, who, at that time, were quite happy to supply the Argies with missiles and ammo':hmm:).

I don't support everything they do, but there are very few conflicts which our cousins across the pond don't help us out with.

[L J R]

Just like they are supporting us in the Stan and Iraq on our GWOT

[Archimedes]

niknak - John Nott described the French as 'our greatest allies' during the conflict. He clarified this, saying that he should've included the word 'European' before 'allies', but they were in fact terribly helpful.

A nunber of nations who were tempted to provide more Exocet to the Argentines were informed that they would find it impossible to buy spares for their Mirage IIIs and Vs or to have those platforms upgraded at any point in future if they helped out, and proposed transfers of the weapons suddenly ran into unforseen problems. Allegedly...

The only French 'bad guys' in the proceedings appear to have been Aerospatiale, or parts thereof, who are alleged to have forgotten about a small team of technicians helping with Exocet (Mitterand found out and was spectacularly displeased, and the technicians were suddenly remembered and brought home) according to one version of the story - the other is that they were withdrawn as soon as the order to cease helping was given. Also, they were supposedly rather less than helpful in providing the operating parameters of Roland, which might have been useful on occasion.

French Air Force provided DACT with Mirages and provided other useful info. If we're looking for European allies to criticise, the Italians and the Spanish are convenient whipping boys to begin with!

[7x7]

Didn't a scratch crew of incredibly photogenic USN sailors of suitably mixed ethnicity and genders take over a Brit submarine in mid Atlantic after every (Brit) member of its crew went down with really bad food poisoning, and then sink the Belgrano with a blind shot of their last remaining Tigerfish after manfully withstanding hours and hours of depthcharging from half the Argentinian surface fleet?

No? Just wait a few years, and see that that's how Hollywood will tell it.

[Floppy Link]

...and didn't the French Navy provide some Super Etandard affil sorties out of Landivisiau (sp ?) as the fleet passed?

[DarkBlueLoggie]

If we're looking for European allies to criticise, the Italians and the Spanish are convenient whipping boys to begin with!

Didn't the Spanish stop an Argentinian SF team on it's way to attack Gib?

Hmm - just found this...

Argentina planned to sink UK warship at Gibraltar Argentine special forces attempted to blow up a British destroyer in Gibraltar harbour during the Falklands war.
The plan was failed by French intelligence services, which intercepted communications and passed them to Britain.
The four members of the Argentine marine services forces unit flew to Madrid on May 8, Argentine special forces attempted to blow up a British destroyer in Gibraltar harbour during the Falklands war.
The plan was failed by French intelligence services, which intercepted communications and passed them to Britain.
The four members of the Argentine marine services forces unit flew to Madrid on May 8, 1982, a few days after the sinking of the Belgrano in the south Atlantic. They intended to sink the destroyer and a support vessel at anchor in Gibraltar harbour as a revenge strike, reports the Sunday Times.
They were equipped with four limpet mines smuggled through the Argentine embassy in Madrid, the men headed south in a rented car and evaded British military defences to carry out reconnaissance missions.
They were arrested in Cadiz on May 31, by which time the ships had left Gibraltar. (10.07.00)


http://www.panorama.gi/archive/000710/updates.htm

[microlight AV8R]

7x7

Absolutely brilliant :D

[kevrockjockuk01]

This thread bought back memories.
Being a waddo local I kept an eye on what the Vulcans were doing.
Back in the day when they were trialing the Vulcans for carrying the HARM / AIM 9 missiles, I remember seeing 52 FW F4G (one maybe two) sat on the ramp at Waddo and operating with the vulcans for 2 weeks prior to the black buck missions. I have dates when I noted them at RAF Waddington if anybody is interested.
So I assume the HARMS came from Spang and the Weasle F4G`s were training the "Black bucks" crew in launch profiles and tactics.
Also involved was the RAE / DERA whistling tit Argosy (XN819 ??) that was detatched at Waddo over the time period.
I`ve never seen it mentioned anywhere about the 81FS/ 52 FW F4G`s being involved in training or anything.
Strange days indeed up at Waddo when the Tin triangles were flying weekends and bizarre times at night
(checks for black omega`s arriving outside):cool:

kev

[davejb]

Destroyer/special forces story sounds a bit 'bloke down the pub told me'... given the difficulties of crossing the Spanish/Gib border in 1982 for everyday folk, I can't help but admire the optimism of trying to cross from Spain in a hire car, a limpet mine stuffed inconspicuously in their undies, of 4 people trying not to look latin. WW2 Buster Crabbe/Italian manned torpedo stuff would seem more likely.

US provided intel, materiel, and Haig doing the London/NY/B Aires shuttle diplomacy, and despite having (no doubt) a strong desire to retain cordial links with Argentina they came down on our side again. Support at Ascension from day 1, from the relatively small number of hermits who worked there, was excellent - April 14th we arrived, 4 of us were sent to a room in a distant block, where a very nice chap promptly gave us all some beer and we settled down to watch his extensive collection of 'Hogan's Heros' on videotape. As time went by the huge increase in UK personnel put a stop to that, the poor chap couldn't fit 4,000 people into his room and his beer probably ran out.

The only tankers I ever saw were Victors, the only ships were Brit, Korean (I think) fishermen, and a Sov intel ship... perhaps sometime in the gap between my visits a US ship pumped fuel ashore - I'd be surprised if somebody didn't turn up with the Avgas etc at some point.

I was lucky enough to be there for a brief period early on, and again at the end - the early on bit was best by far - hard to describe properly, but seeing our ships pass through was great, walking across the pan (not for an amble, there was a good reason to be there <g>) while the navy sorted the loading out was quite something - guys with backpack radios walking around providing a personalised ATC service to every helo going... there was an endless string of helo's in and out, and when it got dark you'd see the crew step out of the cab with a sleeping bag and damn near kip where they stopped. No offence to the Black Buck bombers, but I though the tankers were something else - seeing them roar off into the night (and being able to admire this with a can of beer in the hand probably had something to do with it) - you couldn't help but figure we meant business.

Of course by the end they'd shipped a SWO out, God alone knows why, and I doubtless unfairly malign the man who I am sure did a sterling job in all reality, but if the first thing he did was find (and have repainted) a flagpole I wouldn't be surprised.

Dave

[er340790]

Quote: In the late eighties or early ninties, some guy in the Paras mentioned in a written account that his unit had captured some American Mercenaries fighting with the Argentinean forces on Mt Longden. He said that they were taken away by some of his colleagues and shot. Special Branch subsequently investigated this claim but found no evidence to support it.


This one seems to keep rearing its head. Spent some time there in the mid-1990s sub-contracxting for an oil major and heard v.similar accounts from the locals, only involving SBS/SAS. Discounted it at the time as 'pub talk' but given the incredibly remote terrain, it would be extremely difficult (practically impossible) to locate bodies without eye-witness assistance / first-hand information. Can't imagine the MOD or locals would have been too keen to assist Special Branch. The politicians, as always, would be happy to sweep any unpleasant realities that occured under the carpet, witness the dropping of the BAe 'bribes' inquiry......

The truth, if there is any, will probably out on someone's deathbed.

Good rumour though. :ok:

[brickhistory]

So I assume the HARMS came from Spang and the Weasle F4G`s were training the "Black bucks" crew in launch profiles and tactics.


AGM-45 Shrike carried by Vulcans vs AGM-88 HARM which didn't get into full production until 1983-ish.

Still, a Vulcan doing the Weasel mission is pretty amazing!

[FormerFlake]

I read somewhere that some USAF A4 Pilots supplied some info for the SHAR pilots. Not sure if any pilots went over to the statse to see some A4s and Mav and Goose in action?

[nacluv]

From 'Vulcan 607', the missile engineers sent to assist (I think with Shrike) were officially 'South African', but they sounded very North American when spoken to...

[taxydual]

Years after Corporate I met an American who had retired from a very, very,very secret US listening base in North Yorkshire (near Harrogate). We became very friendly and over the five years I knew him we exchanged numerous correspondence.

On a visit to see him, in Florida, he requested that I took along my Beret and medals because he wished me to accompany him to a local event which celebrated the US equivalent of our Remembrance Day.

He was stunned to find I wore the South Atlantic Medal (with Rosette), he purposely introduced me to two of his ex-colleagues (also ex v,v,v,s US listening base).

After the ceremonies at a Veterans of Foreign Wars 'Club house' (I don't know what else to call it), beer was taken, lamps were swung and sandbags were pulled up.

In quiet conversations (and grilling's that they gave me) it dawned on me that they knew an awful lot more that I did (and I'm fairly well read up on Corporate) about the invasion, our response and the whereabouts of Argentinian forces. They even knew the Orbat of Argentinian Forces around Fox Bay on West Falkland on a specific date. The details they recalled were amazing.

What they told me (very guardedly) obviously cannot be officially verified, but the clarity in which they recalled events meant either they were actually present (but they weren't) or they were watching/listening extremely well.

To the three (all USN/NSA) Anglophiles (two now dead, one I've never heard from since, and their other colleagues) a sincere Thank You for the vast amount of intel that you passed to UK Forces through whatever means.

RIP Bill and Russ.

[Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!]

Didn't a scratch crew of incredibly photogenic USN sailors of suitably mixed ethnicity and genders take over a Brit submarine in mid Atlantic after every (Brit) member of its crew went down with really bad food poisoning, and then sink the Belgrano with a blind shot of their last remaining Tigerfish after manfully withstanding hours and hours of depthcharging from half the Argentinian surface fleet?
Don't forget, it'd be almost all lit in red and at some point a pipe carrying water would start to leak in a gigantic spray requiring someone to turn a large wheel thingie which fortunately would be conveniently placed upstream of the leak. All this whhile the depthcharges were so disturbing the water that all the crew were being tossed from side to side in a carefully co-ordinated unison.

[davejb]

I think this is a very derogatory post, considering the stirling record of a wide variety of US personnel over an extended period - it's easy for those who denigrate Ben Affleck's contribution to WW2 to also conveniently overlook the fact that Clark Gable was not only a real life air gunner, but also sank Bungo Pete. If it were not for a history of over 50 years of finally wrenching that wheel thingy round then many of us would not be here now to celebrate the repeated victory of muscles over friction and bent wheely thingys.

This isn't only a yank bashing opportunity (for, in truth, I like our colonial rebels quite excessively) - I would like to record that I once had the privilege of accompanying Richard Todd around an air museum (his son worked there with us at the time) and he was of course famous for breaching the Eder and Mohne dams, and capturing Rommel - events celebrated in films starring Guy Gibson in the lead role in the 50's.

Frankly it amazes me that so few people bother to get their facts right when making films.

Dave

[brickhistory]

Frankly it amazes me that so few people bother to get their facts right when making films.

Dave, I agree, however, film making is, generally, a for profit endeavor. Historical accuracy seems to take a very distant place to the producers' desire to put butts in the seats to watch said film. If Tom Cruise playing Gibson in a B-17 and Morgan Freeman as Barnes-Wallis will draw a bigger box office, it's naive to think they won't do it.

For a-rgh, et al, I had posted, then deleted this, but since you insist:

Ya know, you can make such a film in a British studio. Just as you can send your two carriers and their air wings down south again if needed.




In both cases, oh, right, sorry...............................................

[Pontius Navigator]

I don't reckon an large aircraft (Victor or Vulcan) could successfuly use the Boom Drogue Adapter (BDA) fitted to the KC135 to allow a probe equipped aircraft to refuel from it. The process is hard enough for a more manoeuvreable fighter.

Dan I was going to disagree then had a recollection.

In 1965 when the Valiant force was grounded the USAF kindly provided drogud booms for the Javelins and Lightnings until the Victor K1 became available.

IIRC the Vulcan did not do IFR (as was in those days) after the demise of the Valiant but I do think it was mooted that they coul duse the KC135.

[Pontius Navigator]

in 1982 a USAF tanker bod told me that some of their aircraft were involved supporting the war effort. Later in Oklahoma City I heard the same story again from another tanker crewman.

Oklahoma City - Tinker AFB - 707 type aircraft

Now I heard a similar rumour in the early 90s but there was no suggestion that the USAF refuelled RAF aircraft.

:suspect:

[Art Field]

Although the USAF exchange pilot on the Victor Tanker fleet was not allowed on Ascension, the Americans residents there were very cooperative and the support from the US on the logistic side was superb. Catering was completely covered by them with frequent C5 flights, accommodation in Concertina City came from them, not brilliant but a lot better than British tents and they provided many other backup facilities. In fact the place was ideal for operational action until OC Admin and his Chevette Set turned up and ruined it.

[hoodie]

Also involved was the RAE / DERA whistling tit.

A&AEE, actually. XN817 (http://www.airliners.net/photo/UK---Air/Armstrong-Whitworth-AW-660/1230786&sok=V0hFUkUgIChyZWcgPSAnWE44MTcnKSAgT1JERVIgQlkgcGhvdG9faWQg REVTQw==&tbl=photo_info&photo_nr=1&prev_id=&next_id=1191568). And DERA was not even a glimmer.

[cazatou]

davejb

Re Richard Todd
If you saw the film "The Longest Day" you may remember that Richard Todd (playing Major Howard of the Ox & Bucks Light Infantry) had a very self satisfied grin having captured "Pegasus Bridge".

That, just possibly, was because it was exactly where Richard Todd (then a Lt in the 7 th Battalion Parachute Regt) was on D-Day having jumped from an Albermarle shortly after midnight to re-inforce, with his Platoon, the men of the Ox & Bucks holding the bridge until the arrival of the Lovat Scouts.

[davejb]

Yep,
read about that some time back - in reality many film stars played a very real role in WW2, from David Niven (who famously sent his fridge to a Monty Python film award show, you might recall) who was in one of the myriad of small, somewhat clandestine outfits...'Phantom' I think they were called - to my own 'favourite', Jimmy Stewart. Others like Audie Murphy made the transition the other way about of course. Richard Todd didn't know me from Adam of course, I was just standing with the boss on a slow day when he turned up for a quick look round - offered me a ciggy, I was far more interested in cadging rides on his son's moped back then.

My comments were a somewhat tongue in cheek, deliberate mish mash of mixed truth and outlandish fabrication...much like the films we all love to rubbish but happily settle back down to watch for the third time around.

Now, back to Jack Hawkins, who as we all know survived losing a leg at Waterloo to command Compass Rose, a flower class corvette on the Atlantic convoys. You'll note during the film that when he turns to adress Donald Sinden he only ever rotates clockwise, as his wooden leg 'knee' joint jammed (warping in all that cold salty water) thereby prevented anti clockwise movement..... how I never got signed up as a screenwriter is beyond me.

Dave

[Green Flash]

Another, probably pub generated, story I heard was that when all the RM was rapidly brought to readiness the Dutch Marines thought that they were going too and rapidly started to get there sh1t together too. Allegedly Prince Bernhardt had to drive up to Den Helder and tell 'em to go back to bed. Sounds good I suppose.

[taxydual]

Oh, we may as well get rid of all the 'pub talk' ASAP.

The Irish Marines invading Falkirk...............................................

[JT Eagle]

A friend of mine who flew A-4s in the USMC around the time of Corporate says that one of his colleagues was an instructor who had trained many of the Argie pilots. When the unpleasantries kicked off he applied for leave so that he could go and fight with 'his boys'. I believe he let the reason for his leave request slip and it was denied....

JT

[UKHABU]

Well, not that anyone will believe me, but they DID find American combatants in the Falklands - they were Snipers. At the time it was always a query as to why the Argentinians had such good Snipers - given that they did not have any such beast in the Army/Marines and there was no organised Sniper Training for thier forces. They were particularily better equipped than we were - remember we were still using the old 7.62mm L42's in 1982 and they were getting worn out(read ****e!). And IR Night Sights were in thier infancy.
In fact on our side they were almost non-existant - mainly due to the fact they went "missing" during delivery - they were actually delivered to the SWO at RAF Marham at one point! - basically they wanted them "down South" quickly and 55 & 57 Sqns were the quickest delivery method to Wideawake.
The SWO didn't discover he had them for quite some time before he expidited them - not his fault - he didn't order them! SNAFU supply line/panic buy.
The gentlemen when found on the Islands had better kit than we had - very high-end IR Gear. I can assure you that when the Paras had finished night-ops with several of thier blokes Sniped they were in no mood to piss-about. They were escorted-off and 'shot whilst attempting to escape".
Special Branch investigation ! Ha! don't make me laugh - what were they going to do - dig up the mass-graves of Argentinian dead - crawl around all the minefields looking for bodies?
Another thing - find out about the American Air Force guy who solved all the problems on the A4's - particularily the ejection seat problems - but I guess HE didn't exist either!;)

[alwayslookingup]

Re Execution of "American Mercenaries". Story first saw the light of day in 'Excursion to Hell', Vince Bramley's autobiography of his time with 2 Para during the conflict, in particular the battle for Mt Longdon, where Bramley alleges the incident took place. The incident, though described in some detail to Bramley by one of the alleged perpetrators, colleagues of his in 2 Para, has never been conclusively proved to have happened.

However, two alleged war crimes by members of the Battalion do have much more credence and are generally accepted as true.

The first concerns Cpl Stuart McGlaughlin. He apparently led a composite section of survivors throughout the better part of the battle for Longdon up and over the summit, on the way taking out several Argentine positions, all in such a manner as would normally befitted the highest of gallantry awards ie VC. He was killed the day after by a mortar round. Upon searching his personal effects, several Argentinian ears were found in his webbing, resulting in the Battalion padre refusing to countersign the award recommendation, even though all who witnessed his actions on the night agreed he should have had the VC.

The second concerns a Battalion Corporal, Louis S*****. On the day following the battle it is generally accepted, and confirmed by several eye witness accounts, that he shot dead an unarmed Argentinian prisoner during burial party duties. He was removed from the scene and, at the time, for public consumption, it was put about that he had been court martialled and dismissed the battalion. In fact his career continued up to 1993 when he retired as a Colour Sergeant. By then, to old salts who had known him at the time of the conflict, he had acquired the nick name 'line ‘em up Louis'. He was the type of soldier found in many Regiments, a good line soldier, very efficient at his job, but widely felt to be just a little too close to the edge to be comfortable around.

[trap one]

The F4/GR3 affill in the UK was done with Belgian Mir5 and French Navy Super Etendards. No A4's were involved with UK Land based aircraft. The sorties were flown over East Anglia as neither nations had immersion suits with them. I was involved with the sorties and threatened with all sorts of Official Secrets punishments. But as the Sec Def stood up in the House and thanked the nations involved at the end of the conflict, it became unclass.

As for KC135 BDA basket with big aircraft, never done AFAIK. The KC135's certainly replaced the Victor on UK AAR QRA and flew out of Mildenhall.

[parabellum]

During the Falklands campaign I flew a charter in a B737 to, I think, Alicante and was parked near an Argentinian B747 alongside which were several large wooden crates, the type machinery is usually shipped in.
'phoned the MOD when I got home who took all the details an expressed gratitude etc. last I heard. I'm sure the Spanish did offer support to Argentina and the ground staff were quite unfriendly at some Spanish airfields during the war and for a while afterwards.

[goneeast]

alwayslooking up is indeed correct

Stu Mac was the toughest soldier that Ive ever met, and indeed it was the padre who discovered the "trophies" in his belt kit after his death. "Line em up Louis" was only one of two people ever interviewed under caution over the alleged shooting of prisoners, the other being Hew Pike, Gary (Louis) was moved to 1 Para following the war. As an aside, one SNCO was implicated when an Argie survivor told investigators that he had been "executed" by a soldier.. the SNCO in question was moving up a track under heavy fire when the body he stepped over proved to be very much alive as it started grabbing at his legs nd shouting in spanish.. The NCO was in the open and now he was getting the attention of both sides machine gunners, so he fired 2 or 3 rounds into the prostrate enemy to break away. Now you all know the power of an SLR. This guy took 3 rounds in the head at less that 4 feet and SURVIVED. Further reading if you can find it is in "Green eyed boys" by Adrian Weale, if still in print. The American mercenery story is repeated there, but casts doubt on its validity, suggesting the "Americans" were in fact Argentines with dual nationality.

Also Major Kearnan of C company? 3 Para was on exchange tour and was flatly refused when he requested to go south with the battalion. He was replaced before embarkation.

[PLovett]

There is a reference to US assistance in Ken Connor's book, "Ghost Force". He writes that he was in the US at the time and was part of the arrangements to get US Stinger air to ground missiles and better radios to the SAS.

In relation to the US mercenaries there is a reference in Martin Pegler's book, "Sniper: A History Of The US Marksman" to two snipers captured at Goose Green that had caused casualties. Pegler's source was a personal interview.

...they had proper commercial scoped rifles and they had caused some heavy losses but neither spoke Spanish - they spoke English with American accents but didn't say much. They knew we were pissed off with them. Some of the lads took them away and we never saw them again. We all knew they were killed but no one spoke about it.

I think I am correct is saying that it has now being revealed that a lot of US intel was passed to the British including satellite photos as I think the US repositioned one for the purpose. However, I cannot recall where I might of read that so I could also be wrong.

[Jetex Jim]

Agreed...refueling of the short hose drogue on the KC-135 could be tricky..indeed I know someone :O who dented the intake ramp of an F-4 when they got the kink in the the short hosed drogue of the KC-135 wrong. The hose whipped round and clobbered the fixed, forward portion of the intake ramp...gave the back seater a shock, I understand he said :mad::mad:

As for doing it with a Vulcan or a Victor:ooh:.....

Okay then regarding the BDA.

And some very amusing comments regarding the Hollywood movie version, (and didn't Channel4 comic strip-Robbie Coltran etc have a bit of a retelling).

However no one has yet mentioned the most famous conspiracy of them all - that the whole thing was faked up at Pinewood studios - on the 007 stage, which is why there was no James Bond film that year - All to secure the reelection and subsequent empowerment, of a PM who peviously had been very unpopular.

Oh uh, isn't that one of those black omegas....

[FormerFlake]

The first concerns Cpl Stuart McGlaughlin. He apparently led a composite section of survivors throughout the better part of the battle for Longdon up and over the summit, on the way taking out several Argentine positions, all in such a manner as would normally befitted the highest of gallantry awards ie VC. He was killed the day after by a mortar round. Upon searching his personal effects, several Argentinian ears were found in his webbing, resulting in the Battalion padre refusing to countersign the award recommendation, even though all who witnessed his actions on the night agreed he should have had the VC.

I was lucky enough to have a guided tour and walkthrough of the battle for Mt Longdon by some one who actually took part as a young L/Cpl. It was an amazing experience to see the landscape for real while hearing the first hand account. The subject of the "trophies" was mentioned as being nothing more than just a story by our guide.

[tornadoken]

Mrs.T arranged Hon Knighthoods for SecDef Weinberger and for Pres.Reagan. Sir L.Freedman, Official History of the Falklands Campaign/Vol 2, F.Cass, 2005 has some detail inc. sub detection kit, Intel, GW, comms. bandwidth.

[MAINJAFAD]

That, just possibly, was because it was exactly where Richard Todd (then a Lt in the 7 th Battalion Parachute Regt) was on D-Day having jumped from an Albermarle shortly after midnight to re-inforce, with his Platoon, the men of the Ox & Bucks holding the bridge until the arrival of the Lovat Scouts.

Bit off topic - That's interesting, because the book 'Pegaus Bridge', says Todd jumped from a Stirling, What is the source of your info???

[Dunhovrin]

Back to topic: didn't America refuse to send Argentina fuses that would arm "quick" enough to stop the ULL A4 bombs from skipping?

Back to off-topic. Never knew the Richard Todd P-Bridge story. Top.

[Green Flash]

Off thread; thought the paras jumped from the Albermarles whilst the more powerfull Stirlings pulled the gliders.

[Snapshot]

A mate of mine attached to the 22nd ind parachute Coy jumped from Albermarles into to Ranville.
He had one the Eureka Beacons attacthed to his legs to mark one of the DZ's for the main assualt. I think two Sqn's were 295 and 297

He was shot up pretty bad at a place called Devil's Corner a couple of days later as the chap
to his immediate left and right were killed!

There's an interesting link here (http://www.pegasusarchive.org/normandy/rep22ipcDDay.htm)which shows their aircraft types, tail numbers, departure airfields,
codes, TOT etc. :D

[BEagle]

Regarding the account of US mercenaries being murdered by Paras, I was told the same story by the Bearded Bull****ter (he who won the whole air war in his little SHAR) at Decimomannu during annual ACMI training.

So it very probably isn't true!

[MAINJAFAD]

Off thread; thought the paras jumped from the Albermarles whilst the more powerfull Stirlings pulled the gliders.

Off thread;

In fact there were four RAF aircraft types used on the drop into Normandy on the morning of D-Day (Operation Tonga). Halifax V, Dakota III, Stirling VI, and various marks of Albermarle. Gliders were towed by all types bar the Stirling in various numbers. Paras were dropped from all types bar the Halifax.

The link here (http://www.6juin1944.com/assaut/aeropgb/en_page.php?page=tongahttp://www.6juin1944.com/assaut/aeropgb/en_page.php?page=tonga) lists the gliders and who towed them, the following list shows the tug aircraft types operated by each squadron.

298 / 644 Sqns Halifax A Mk V
295/ 296 / 297 / 570 Sqns Albermarle
233 / 271 Sqns Dakota III

Richard Todd jumped from a Stirling out of Fairford, which would have been from either 620 or 190 Sqns (and boy would I love to know which Sqn and aircraft it was, even the Stirling Association do not know).

Stirlings may well have been used as tugs on the evening glider train (Op Mallard).

[brickhistory]

No Falklands, but does include Yanks and British flying things........


ONE WAY ON D-DAY


On the evening of the biggest day of World War II, D-Day June 6, 1944, the 82d Airborne Division was heavily engaged in fierce close quarters combat with the German Army. The Germans had been trying desperately all day to drive the American parachute and glider borne assault troops back into the English Channel. The 82d urgently needed reinforcements and resupply to hold its initial positions.

S. Tipton “Tip” Randolph was one of the pilots who flew who to Normandy in support of the 82d. Unlike most pilots on this fateful day, Randolph was one of a relative handful who knew they weren’t coming back from this flight. He was part of the little-publicized group called military glider pilots. Not only did he fly into combat on a one-way ride, but he did it in a glider that was not American designed or made.

The Preparation for Normandy

“I was attending my sophomore year at Asheville College, North Carolina when America entered World War II. During that year, I picked up my pilot’s license as a course in the Civilian Pilot Training Course. I got credit towards my degree and had fun, to boot.

“In March 1942, some of my friends and I heard about the newly started U.S. Army Air Force glider program. A glib Army recruiter with a quota to fill found a rapt audience with us. By having my pilot’s license and passing a perfunctory physical, I was a prime candidate for this new training.

“Starting in May 1942, about 75 glider pilot trainees reported to Shaw Field in Sumter, South Carolina. There we enlisted as privates in the Army Air Force.
Moved down to Ft. Jackson, S.C., our group was formally in-processed into the military. The archetypical shot line, uniform issue, and yet another physical that essentially consisted of being able to breathe and walk upright followed.

“Following the abbreviated introduction into the military, I traveled by train to a civilian-run preliminary light airplane gliding instruction school at Goodland, Kansas. The flying there was actually conducted in powered light aircraft. In my case, Piper Cubs were the primary vehicle.

“Everything we did at Kansas was a repeat of private pilot training with a heavy emphasis on deadstick landings. We flew a landing pattern and on the downwind leg, the instructor would pull the throttle. It was up to the student to fly the rest of the pattern and get the plane down on the field. This was really effective at developing judgment and distance estimating in a young pilot.

“The guys that couldn’t do it after a couple of tries, and the patterns grew longer and longer from the touchdown point, were eliminated from the program. Since we had enlisted, those guys were sent to jobs elsewhere. Not what we young guys wanted, so I worked really hard at being good at milking the plane’s glide as far as possible.

“After Kansas, the we moved on to Amarillo, Texas’ England Field. It was here that they got our first true sailplane training. Flying mostly Schweitzer and Laister-Kauffman 2-place sailplanes, I learned the basic theory and operation of the tow-plane/glider operation.

“This was the most fun flying I ever had. I’d get towed to three-four thousand feet, release the tow line, and after flying whatever the simple pattern required for that flight’s lesson – could be a loop, a 360 around a point or what have you- but after that lesson requirement was met, I could play and experiment for as long as I had altitude.

“The true gliders we flew at England Field were very different from the power off Cubs. In the Cub, when you pulled the power to simulate the tow release, the weight of the engine and the shorter wings ensured that you were going into an immediate descent. In the Schweitzer, that wasn’t the case. With those long wings, you could do a lot of stuff and not really lose a lot of altitude. I really enjoyed flying those gliders.

“By the winter of 1942, I had been promoted to Staff Sergeant and was sent to the cold, windswept panhandle of Texas outside Dalhart. It was here that I had my introduction to the CG-4A ‘Hadrian’ combat glider. I always figured that this would be the only aircraft I see combat in.

“The CG-4A is a big aircraft. With a wingspan over 80 feet and a load carrying capability of more than its own weight, it dwarfed anything any of my classmates or I had ever flown before. After settling into the left seat of the CG-4A, I discovered that as fun as the sailplane training had been, it wasn’t particularly applicable to the big glider.

“With the CG-4A, once you ‘cut-off’ from the tow rope – by the way in almost no case did the tow plane release the glider, rather it was the glider that released the tow rope. If you didn’t or if the tow rope snapped, the end from the tow plane came whipping back and could tear a hole in the Plexiglas or the fabric or what was worse, wrap around a control surface or the landing wheels. We lost a lot of guys in training and in combat due to a broken towrope.

“Anyway, once you cut off, the CG-4A was a big heavy ship. If she wasn’t being dragged forward, she was going to go downhill. If you kept the speed up above 80 mph or so, she handled very well. You could maintain position behind the tow ship with only slight moves of the rudder. In free flight, the controls weren’t particularly heavy until the speed dropped off. At that point, you weren’t far from the stall and the controls were a bit sloppy.

“I graduated and was commissioned a Flight Officer on 27 February 1943. I was immediately sent to Ft Knox, Kentucky area for combat infantry training. While there, I learned to use and maintain all the U.S. small arms: M1 rifle, M1 carbine, .45 pistol, bazookas, mortars and machine guns.

“I also continued my flight training, gaining experience and confidence handling a glider in a variety of flying conditions with heavy emphasis on night flying.

“For our night training, often times, the instructors would set out two smudge pots to mark the end of the runway, then string a rope between two poles that was our ‘obstacle’ we had to clear, and then another two pots to mark the desired touchdown point. If we landed too long or too short, we caught an earful from those instructors. Nobody wanted to be thought as ‘not cutting the mustard’ so we got pretty good at hitting the mark.

“ I was assigned to the 80th Troop Carrier Squadron in the 436th Troop Carrier Group. I stayed with the 80th until its deactivation in late 1945 after the war.”

“After more training, culminating in division-size glider assaults in the rugged terrain of northern North Carolina, my group shipped out from New York aboard the RMS Queen Mary on January 2, 1944.

“I arrived in Scotland on January 6 and soon was on my way south to my group’s home at Membury Field, England. From then until April, we new glider pilots practiced flying in formations ranging from single ships up to Wing-sized drops. It was during this time that I also practiced my first double-tow flights. In this configuration, one C-47 would tow two CG-4As. With careful planning and skillful handling by all three pilots, it was a viable combat configuration. If it was rushed or a pilot was ham-fisted, it could be a disaster.

“I flew every chance I got. In addition to his scheduled flights, I’d hang around the squadron and group ops areas and anytime somebody needed a pilot or co-pilot, I was ready to fly. Eventually, all of my group’s glider pilots were sent to a British navigation course and then we would fly as C-47 navigators. After building up some ‘Gooney Bird’ time, we served as C-47 copilots thus doubling the number of C-47 crews available if a glider tow wasn’t the mission.”

“If we were doing tows, you rotate before the tow plane at about 75-80 mph, and go above him. Not too far or you’d dump the tow on its nose before he was airborne. It was a real short flight if you did that.

“After you saw the tow get up, you’d settle in trail behind him about 4-6 feet above his tail. That kept you out his propwash and let him make any turns he needed without having to worry about you hitting him on the inside of the turn. At night, however, you had to fly slightly below him because the only reference you had was his exhaust flames. You’d get tossed around pretty good while the group was forming up, but it would generally settle down once everybody was heading the same way.”

“About April, the planners for the airborne portion of the D-Day landings realized that the number of troops and amount of supplies to be airlifted exceeded the expected number of American gliders. Turning to the British, the we borrowed some Airspeed A.S.51 Horsa gliders and assigned them to some of the tasked glider units, mine included.

“ On my initial checkout on the Horsa, a Brit NCO sat in the left seat and I sat in the right. We were pulled up and at pattern altitude we released from the tow. Except a bit on the downwind, I didn’t touch the controls. After we landed, the NCO said ’You’ll do just fine, mate.’ And with that, I was checked out. As a matter of fact, I was able to train additional glider pilots on the Horsa. There weren’t any designated instructors so we had to help each other hone our skills after the initial Brit checkout.

“The Horsa was a much bigger craft than the CG-4A. The cockpit was almost completely separated from the cargo area whereas in the US glider, the two pilots were right in front of the payload. Indeed, in the CG-4A, the cockpit was hinged at the top to swing up and out of the way to load and unload. In the Brit ride, the cargo was unloaded via the tail. It also carried almost double the load of the American glider.”

Randolph continues in his description of flying the bigger model, “The Horsa was a much different type than the American glider. It came with pneumatic-type flaps. The CG-4A had manually operated spoilers to dump speed. With the Horsa’s flaps, you could crank in 80 degrees and drop down in a hurry and also bleed off speed quickly. Very good tricks to have going into a ‘hot’ LZ (landing zone).”

“I kept up my habit of trying to fly any chance I could get. I racked up almost 60 hours in the Horsa before flying into combat. Some guys, unfortunately, only had 4-5 hours before facing gunfire.

Flying into Combat

“On June 3, 1944, our crews were briefed on our part of the impending invasion on June 4th. The weather wasn’t consulted, however, and refused to cooperate so the initial drop was slipped by a day to the evening of the 5th, D-Day (D-1). As part of that drop, the 82d Airborne Division dropped both paratroopers and gliders into their objectives around Ste.-Mere-Eglise.

“My squadron was on deck to fly the evening of June 6th. Due to scattered drops and heavy German resistance in the initial 82d assault, our designated LZ was still in a hotly contested area. Since the radios for the 82d’s commander, Major General Gavin, were destroyed on landing, he had no way to communicate back to England that the LZ would be very hot.

“On the afternoon of June 6th, I was briefed on the target area. Small fields surrounded by hedgerows would make for very sporty landings.

Reconnaissance photos also showed small objects in the field as “cows.” Those cows would turn out to be anti-invasion obstacles planted by the Germans to foil just such landings.

“The take-off time was set for 2100. At that late hour, it would still be twilight, but dim enough so that any unforeseen obstacles on the glide in would be hidden until touchdown.

“My copilot, Joe Bickett, and I walked out to our chalk or spot where our ship was on the runway. As we approached, we saw some airborne troops loading their equipment. They stopped and looked at us and we looked at them. Finally, the NCO of the bunch, Sgt Wallace Edwards, introduced himself and his men. Joe and I reciprocated.”

“After watching them secure their load, we checked it to make sure it matched the manifest. We tipped the scales at 16,767 pounds. Max gross of the Horsa was supposed to be 15,800, but I wasn’t too concerned. I just would have to watch my stall speed a little more closely since it would be higher due to the extra weight.”

“That evening when it was finally time to get going, just as the start engines flare went off, Sgt Edwards leaned forward and shouted, “Get us on the ground in one piece and we’ll keep you from harm on the ground.” That phrase has stuck with me all these years. When he said it, he meant it and he sure did keep his word.”

“When it was our turn, the tow plane gradually started its take off run. As it did, it pulled the tow rope taut and started the Horsa rolling. Unlike the CG-4A, which had a single point attachment for the rope, the Horsa had two points, one on the underside of each wing. You had to be more vigilant in flying with this arrangement than a single point system since it was easy to overstress an attachment rope while the other went slack. If that happened, the line could break and the glider would quickly roll around the still-attached wing- a catastrophic event in a heavily loaded glider with frail humans aboard.
“Flying over the Channel, I saw the thousands of ships involved in the amphibious landings. All those lights reminded me for some strange reason of a Christmas tree. I soon snapped back from my daydreaming after crossing the coast when a couple of rounds of ground fire twanged off something in the back, either the howitzer or the jeep. Stuff hitting the plywood floor made a dull thud.

“At 400 feet, the light from the tow flashed and we cut off. In the gathering dark, it was tough to see the details I wanted. We turned left through 90 degrees following standard procedure and couldn’t make out the ground. Still descending, another 90-degree turn, and a burning tree casts a little light on the field. Another 90 and we line up for the landing.

“At 75 feet, we brush through some tree tops and the horizon is barely visible. We drop full flaps and take an elevator ride down with the nose pointed at the dirt. At 30 feet, I pull the wheel deep into my stomach as Joe is calling out altitude.
Photo 13

“We hit pretty hard but in one piece and after only a couple of hundred feet come to a stop. Just as we stopped, another Horsa came whizzing by and smacked into a hedgerow at high speed. We also discovered the LZ was still under fire so the troopers unloaded us in a hurry. In less than five minutes, we had unloaded and beat feet to impromptu rally point at one end of the field. Here we found another dozen 82d troopers. During the night, more and more guys joined our position.

“Next day, D+1, we located ourselves in relation to the battle. We were northeast of a road between Les Forges and Ste Mere-Eglise. Our assigned post-landing battle station was the headquarters command post. Since nobody knew where it was, we stuck with Sgt Edwards and his guys, moving from skirmish to skirmish.

“I saw just how frightening and numbing ground combat can be for the next three days. Finally, all the glider pilots were ordered to accompany some walking wounded to the beach and turn them over to some medical guys there. We then found the beachmaster and he loaded us on a transport back to Plymouth, England.”

“Although the invasion glider force as a whole suffered massive losses during the Normandy operation, amazingly every single 80th Troop Carrier Squadron pilot came back in one piece.”

End of the Story/Start of the Legacy

Tip Randolph made another three combat assaults during the European campaigns. He also flew many resupply and medical evacuation flights that were not classified as “combat."

Author’s note: Mr. Randolph proved a reluctant subject to interview. In the course of numerous calls and letters to him on the subject of the military glider program, Mr. Randolph always tried to get me to contact other pilots and tell their stories. He always said that their tales would be of more interest. After finally getting him to talk to me about this mission, I can only imagine what other stories are out there.

[Jetex Jim]

ONE WAY ON D-DAY


What a wonderful memoir, thanks for posting that.

[angels]

Yeah, amazing story. Did that extract come from a book?

I'd be interested to know the title if it did. Thanks.

[brickhistory]

That was an article for Flight Journal magazine some years ago.

A good book on the subject is "Silent Wings" by Gerard Devlin.

There are numerous others but the titles escape me for the moment.

I also had fantastic help from the US' Silent Wings Museum in Texas and the Glider Regiment Association in the UK. Both were working on a glider exchange type of deal - getting a CG-4A to the UK and a Horsa to the US.

[Bushfiva]

very, very,very secret US listening base in North Yorkshire (near Harrogate).

This is the site that's so secret, ex-employees put up a very, very, very public website about their time there?

[Porrohman]

I was working for a defence company during Operation Corporate and we had some extremely urgent requests for equipment. The orders were fulfilled by working huge levels of overtime and the equipment was despatched ASAP, but by this time the task force had sailed from Ascension.

The story I heard (some time after the events) was that the equipment was loaded onto a C130 and para-dropped into the South Atlantic adjacent to the Task Force. Unfortunately the floatation devices on the shipment didn't work as intended and the equipment sank to the bottom of the ocean before it could be picked up by the Task Force.

Is there any truth to this story? If so, was it a one-off mission or were there a number of these?

Was the C130 refuelled en-route to the Task Force by the Victors? If so, did these refuelling missions have any of the complexity of the Black Buck missions?

Did the American's assist with / perform this supply mission? Para-dropping cargo into the sea in floating containers/pallets doesn't sound like a routine mission for RAF C130s, but I could be wrong...

[davejb]

Did the American's assist with / perform this supply mission? Para-dropping cargo into the sea in floating containers/pallets doesn't sound like a routine mission for RAF C130s, but I could be wrong...

Lots of things come out of the back of an RAF C130... why would it be something the USAAF do but not the RAF?

Anybody looking for covert flight ops by US forces is barking up the wrong tree. Corporate, initially, provided a huge challenge - the distances between Ascension, Falklands, and S Georgia were huge, we simply couldn't fly from A to B...look at the Black Buck missions (read Vulcan 607) - tankers had to refuel tankers so they could go far enough to refuel the bomber. The US provided intel, they may or may not have provided a few nutters whose lifetime subscriptions to 'Soldier of Fortune' ran longer than they did. Nobody flew off Wideawake from area 51. There are very few secrets to be discovered <g>

[JessTheDog]

I have it on good authority that US participation in the Falklands War is being dramatised for the big screen.

Mel Gibson is producing and playing the lead role, in a script by Randall Wallace.

Maj Nutter USMC (Gibson) is an exchange officer who finds himself en route to the Falklands with the Task Force. He falls foul of his CO, Lt Col Plinkington-Flyppe of 99 Para, who is only the CO because he is the second cousin of Prince Charles and a raving homosexual (like all British officers). To cut a long story short, Maj Nutter whips the pansy-ass Brits into shape on the voyage, leads them in a bayonet charge when the CO thinks it isn't safe because it is raining and raises the Stars and Stripes above the governer's house in Port Stanely (before even Max Hastings gets there).

I'll get my coat.....

[Porrohman]

Davejb said;
Lots of things come out of the back of an RAF C130... why would it be something the USAAF do but not the RAF?

Given that the USA has a much bigger Navy and Air Force I thought perhaps there was more chance that they would already have the necessary floatation devices in their inventory and experience of using them in mid-ocean and rough seas. Did the RAF posess these floatation devices themselves? Were they specially developed for Operation Corporate or were they already in the inventory prior to Corporate? Or did the USA supply them?

If the story I heard was true, the floatation device didn't seem to work on this occasion. The value of the equipment lost was significant in financial terms and probably more significant in operational terms. Was this delivery method used successfully on other occasions? How far from Ascension did the drop take place and did the mission involve complex in-flight refuelling (i.e. tankers re-fuelling tankers to refuel the mission aircraft as per Black Buck)?

[Porrohman]

A Google search provided the attached article which answers some of my questions but doesn't mention the floatation devices;

http://www.lynehamvillage.com/features/hercules/index.html

[brickhistory]

Jeezus, I know we both fly some old pieces of crap,


Lots of things come out of the back of an RAF C130... why would it be something the USAAF do but not the RAF?

but that old?!

[taxydual]

Bushfiva


very, very,very secret US listening base in North Yorkshire (near Harrogate).


T'was a very poor attempt at sarcasm.

[Bushfiva]

Ah, I thought I heard a "whoosh" just above my head. I should have paid more attention to it. :)

[Jetex Jim]

I have it on good authority that US participation in the Falklands War is being dramatised for the big screen.

Mel Gibson is producing and playing the lead role, in a script by Randall Wallace.

Maj Nutter USMC (Gibson) is an exchange officer who finds himself en route to the Falklands with the Task Force. He falls foul of his CO, Lt Col Plinkington-Flyppe of 99 Para, who is only the CO because he is the second cousin of Prince Charles and a raving homosexual (like all British officers). To cut a long story short, Maj Nutter whips the pansy-ass Brits into shape on the voyage, leads them in a bayonet charge when the CO thinks it isn't safe because it is raining and raises the Stars and Stripes above the governer's house in Port Stanely (before even Max Hastings gets there).


As a starting point that's fine, but what are they going to call Sharkey Wards dog?

[Dan D'air]

As a starting point that's fine, but what are they going to call Sharkey Wards dog?

African-American.

[helen-damnation]

As a starting point that's fine, but what are they going to call Sharkey Wards dog?

Digger :eek:

Keeps the expats happy :}

[Ray Dahvectac]

... perhaps there was more chance that they would already have the necessary floatation devices in their inventory and experience of using them in mid-ocean and rough seas. Did the RAF posess these floatation devices themselves? Were they specially developed for Operation Corporate or were they already in the inventory prior to Corporate? Or did the USA supply them?
Nimrods, Shackletons before them (and very likely Neptunes and Liberators before them) have been dropping supplies to the Navy for donkeys years, day and night and in all kinds of weather. Little difference really in dropping from the bomb bay of a Nimrod or kicking it off the ramp of a Herc. Occasionally the flotation devices fail - such is life.

As others have said, other than regular MAC provisioning flights into ASI, there was no USAF air activity from there during Op Corporate. Lots of support was provided in many different ways, but Americans flying from ASI in direct support to a UK operation? It didn't happen.

But that's not to say they won't make a movie about it. :hmm:

[7x7]

...starring Tom Cruise in a snappy, well-cut uniform and an eye patch.

Oh, silly me. Wrong war.

[Porrohman]

Thanks for the info regarding the air-drops Ray.

The info I found on lynehamvillage.com was interesting, especially the bits about air-to-air refuelling C-130s from Victors which had to be done in a shallow dive because of incompatable air speeds. I had a suspicion that these missions were similar to Black Buck from an AAR perspective but hadn't seen them mentioned before. A 25 hour non-stop trip in a Herc must have been quite an endeavour. Respect to all the Herc and Victor crews. :ok:

[munster]

one of these c-130 flights from ascension is described by lieutenant colonel david chaundler who was the replacement C/O of 2 para following the death of H.
chaundler parachuted from the herc to collected from the water.

forgotten voice of the falklands - hugh mcmanners describes the campaign

[ORAC]

After the war the C-130s would refuel then continue south to the point of no return (PONR) and get a go/no go weather call from Stanley based on the weather. If it was dodgy they turned back, landed, refuelled and tried again later.

I felt sorry for one CSE show travelling by C-130 who flew south, turned back at the PONR, were off-loaded at ASI into another C-130 ready and waiting for them and set off again.

IIRC by the time they landed they'd spent about 26-30 hours airborne with about a 15 minute gap in the middle. And their first show was the same evening they arrived.

[wiggy]

brickhistory

I think that comment (USAAF) went above a few heads..nevertheless many of us are still grateful for the Mighty 8th and the like, be they USAAF or USAF.

Rgds

[polecat2]

Maj Nutter USMC (Gibson) is an exchange officer who finds himself en route to the Falklands with the Task Force. He falls foul of his CO, Lt Col Plinkington-Flyppe of 99 Para, who is only the CO because he is the second cousin of Prince Charles and a raving homosexual (like all British officers).

Couldn't he be accused of partly plagiarising 'Tumbledown', the BBC Falklands dramatisation?

Polecat

[Big_les]

...he fired 2 or 3 rounds into the prostrate enemy to break away. Now you all know the power of an SLR. This guy took 3 rounds in the head at less that 4 feet and SURVIVED.

I'm a confirmed lurker, but I nearly sprayed my coffee when I read that. How is that even possible? There's no way all three rounds (if any) entered the skull - his brain would be mush a la JFK, surely? If was an HP, maybe...

[davejb]

Couldn't he be accused of partly plagiarising 'Tumbledown', the BBC Falklands dramatisation?
No, because for artisitic reasons the Falklands will be moved to California, and filmed on a flat, desert terrain. Kate Beckinsale is apparently to reprise her Pearl Harbor role, playing the lead nurse attached to the Delta force beach recce party.

USAAF - Hmm, yes, an extra vowel crept in there!

Floating things - seconding what's gone before (thirding?) ... mail drops, SAR gear drops, personnel drops from RAF aircraft have all been carried out for yonks.

Dave

[brickhistory]

..starring Tom Cruise in a snappy, well-cut uniform and an eye patch.

Oh, silly me. Wrong war.

Besides an apparent shared dislike of the scientologist elf, what's the difference in that and nearly every Roman epic ever made featuring British (almost always English) actors?

How the h@ll did Republican and Imperial Rome acquire Eton accents?

Well, besides invading originally, of course..........

[scarecrow450]

"Floating things - seconding what's gone before (thirding?) ... mail drops, SAR gear drops, personnel drops from RAF aircraft have all been carried out for yonks."

Including Richard Harris- Juggernaut( its a film, jumping out of a C130 into
the sea for IED'S on a liner) the C130 was in brown/black colour scheme- sorry I'll stop now.

[Wiley]

Brick, I think it all stems from Shakespeare and his 'Julius Caesar'. Sorry if it offends you, but Russ Crowe or any of the old Brit Shakespearean actors rounding their vowels in a toga or a Roman soldier's short leather kilt somehow works for me where Victor Mature or Robert Young trying to look (and particularly sound) believable in a very short skirt just doesn't.

If they were upper class Romans, we not of the New World sort of assume they would have spoken with posh accents. And Roman enlisted men seem way more believable with a thick Brit regional accent than a Noo Joisey drawl.

At least for the rest of the world.

My point might be illustrated better by quoting something totally off the subject (and guaranteed to offend everybody):

A world wide survey was conducted by the UN. The only question asked was:'Would you please give your honest opinion about solutions to the food shortage in the rest of the world?'

The survey was a huge failure.
In Africa they didn't know what 'food' meant,
In India they didn't know what 'honest' meant,
In Europe they didn't know what 'shortage' meant,
In China they didn't know what 'opinion' meant,
In the Middle East they didn't know what 'solution' meant,
In South America they didn't know what 'please' meant,
And in the USA they didn't know what 'the rest of the world' meant!

[Jetex Jim]

every Roman epic ever made featuring British (almost always English) actors?

Hold on though wasn't Spartacas a yank and Ben Hur as well.

But the Brits got to be the bad guys in the Star Wars empire too, and at some time in the 1970's evil ceased to be voiced by a Germanic accent and became British.

[Gainesy]

a Roman soldier's short leather kilt somehow works for me
:uhoh:
:)

[BEagle]

Perhaps, more worryingly:

:)
:eek:

Wasn't it some Roman epic with John Wayne, who first read his lines as;

"Truly he musta been the sonofgod" (Read like 'sonofabitch')

To which the director said he needed to sound more in awe of the deceased JC. "More awe, please, Mr Wayne!"

"Awwwww, truly he musta been the sonofgod!"

[RETDPI]

Isn't that one in which a Roman Centurion can be seen wearing a wrist watch?

[Gainesy]

I think that was Spartacus, if they remade it you'd probably hear mobile phones going off now.

There is supposed to be a VC10 in the background to a dogfight in the BoB but I've never seen it, unlike the up and over Westland's garage door and modern doorbell on the cottage.

What was that film where they kept getting annoyed by Lossie Jags so gave up in the end and included them in the film?

[Bob Viking]

The film was 'Local Hero'.
Absolute classic!
Kind of!
BV:ok:

[bazzacat]

"Local Hero"? About some Yank oil firm in the Highlands?

[Double Zero]

DarkBlueLoggie,

" The plan was failed by the French " - does that mean they were attempting it, or stopped it ?!

In fact, reading Jerry Pooks' excellent book ' RAF Harrier Ground Attack Falklands ' the French helped out a great deal with DACT involving Mirages & Super Etendards.

His book also backs up a great deal of what 'Sharkey' Ward mentioned, in that his team on Invicible were the only Seajet pilots fully trained up on the Blue Fox radar, and there was a serious lack of intelligence - in every sense - from Hermes - sorry if that doesn't suit some people, as it seems fashionable to knock Sharkey, but it all has a sadly 'ring true' factor to me...

There was also an active setup where the UK secret service ( not that one, the other one ) set up a 'sting' scheme to buy up any spare Exocets on the black market before the Argies got hold of them.

To be fair, I always thought whoever cobbled up that land-launched Exocet deserves a lot of recognition, hope he's in a well paid job ( preferably on our side ! ) now.

The AIM9L had just been trialled on the FRS1 at Aberporth by Dunsfold Test Pilot Taylor Scott, then Boscombe T.P. Jim Giles ( XZ440 ).

Taylor made great efforts to make sure the task force took AIM9L's, which were indeed supplied discreetly by the U.S; as I understand it we didn't have that many at the time.

Jerry Pook's book is an eye-opener, and sadly I can believe evey word - it also ties in with Sharkey Ward's account.

I rather doubt it has pride of place on Sandy Woodward's shelf !

Another book with some interesting little nuggets is ' The Secret War For The Falklands' by Nigel West.

[Double Zero]

I had the pleasure of working with Flight Test Engineer Mel Quick; he recounted how he & his colleague ( Don March ? - I remember Mel saying they had a sign on their door, " Quick - March " ! ) were working together at Boscombe during the Falklands.

During the 'conflict' they were doing stress calculations for the Vulcan to carry Shrikes - when they arrived at the result, Don grabbed the 'phone to wherever the Vulcan was, and yelled " Stop ! "

Apparently the supporting pins/whatever on the pylons wouldn't stand even taxying over a bump...

When they did get the thing sorted ( I've never heard of any successful Shrike attacks in the Falklands, any answers ? ) one sortie had the unfortunate experience of some sort of failure - tanking ? - and had to divert to the South American mainland - to add insult to injury they were unable to jettison the 'secret' Shrikes and were much photographed on landing !

[brickhistory]

Brick, I think it all stems from Shakespeare and his 'Julius Caesar'. Sorry if it offends you, but Russ Crowe or any of the old Brit Shakespearean actors rounding their vowels in a toga or a Roman soldier's short leather kilt somehow works for me where Victor Mature or Robert Young trying to look (and particularly sound) believable in a very short skirt just doesn't.

No offense taken (thick skin firmly in place). Just the thought struck me is all.

And to further your thought, does the above mean that a male British accent does go well in a very short skirt? (Not that there's anything wrong with that...........)

Re Spartacus - weren't the evil Romans played by British actors while the 'heroes,' Spartacus and his switch-hitting buddy (played by Tony Curtis) Americans?

My favorite miscasting of John Wayne was as Ghengis Khan. Classic!

Re the Vulcan in Brazil - the Shrike made a wonderful coat hangar if I remember the photo correctly.

[Porrohman]

Accordng to Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrike_missile ;


Although the Shrike missile did not enter regular service with the United Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom), it was supplied to the RAF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Air_Force) for use in the Falklands War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falklands_War) of 1982 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982). RAF Shrikes were fitted to modified Vulcan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avro_Vulcan) bombers in order to attack Argentinian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentina) radar installations during Operation Black Buck (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Black_Buck). The main target was a Westinghouse AN/TPS-43 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN/TPS-43) long range 3D radar that the Argentine Air Force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentine_Air_Force) deployed during April to guard the Falklands' surrounded airspace. The Argentine operators were aware of the US-supplied anti-radar missiles and would simply turn it off during the Vulcan's approaches. This radar would remain intact during the whole conflict. However, air defences remain operational during the attacks and the Shrikes hit two of the less valuable and rapidly replaced secondary fire control radars. As a result of this experience next generation missiles were designed to "remember" the radar position even if they were turned off. Also, following a Vulcan making an emergency landing at Rio de Janeiro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rio_de_Janeiro), Brazilian authorities confiscated one Shrike which was never returned.

[octavian]

Harrier/Mirage DACT

Follow on from posts 19, 51 and 99: I was an ATCO at Eastern Radar (RAF Watton) during the build up to Op Corporate, and on quite a number of occasions we handled small groups of Mirages, inbound from their country of origin, to meet up with small groups of Harriers for DACT in various areas off the north Norfolk coast. On completion the Mirages would head for home zapping through most of the southern England airspace with the full co-operation of the various UK civil sectors, only to be met with a resounding 'non' from Paris or wherever. Oddly enough I don't believe any Mirage returned northbound.

If any DACT took place over Wales with SHARs out of Yeovilton they would have been handled by London (Mil)

There may have also been activity with the F5 Aggressors out of Alconbury, but that probably would not have stood out in my mind as they were quite active at that time anyway.

[Double Zero]

I remember speaking to a Navy Test Pilot a few years after the Falklands War - he mentioned that he with a Seajet " could just about hold off an F-5, but get marmalised by anything like an F-16 "

Of course that was before BVR AMRAAMS came into the equation; ironically he was on the first FRS2 ( as then ) trials when speaking !

So the theory of our lot playing with F-5 Aggressors at some stage sounds right to me.

[Eagle402]

Surely the worst ever has to be Sean Connery's take on the Lithuanian captain of Red October in the otherwise excellent film 'The hunt for ....'.

Despite Sean's best efforts, he sounded just the same as in any other film e.g. :

"Shonar, give me a shingle ping, jusht the one..."

Eagle402

p.s.brickhistory - I am liking your subtle "Not that there's anything wrong with that". My all time fave Jerome Seinfeld quote.

[Ewan Whosearmy]

I wonder if there was any effort to speak to the US Navy Adversary squadrons flying A-4s at the time?

[Maple 01]

If any DACT took place over Wales with SHARs out of Yeovilton they would have been handled by London (Mil)

I heard it was in the SWAps under Neatishead (just before my time) Shrike took out the wave guide on the TPS43 making it useless but recoverable post-war, which is what happened or so I've been told

[trap one]

No wasn't Swapps under Neat as Neat only had 84/85 feed in those days (R30).
I can remember GR3/F4 and Mir V and Super E's overhead E Anglia but there was no A4 DACT to my Knowledge.

Portreath not sure if that was up and running as a CRP by then. If so then they would have worked within the Swapps. But these were the days when the WC was not allowed to routinely control over land.

[BEagle]

In the F4 world, we certainly did DACT with the Mirage F1 - a tricky little sod! Simulated Matra 530 engagement parameters, IIRC.

I also bounced a pair of SuEs in transit heading north up the North Sea. I remember thinking how the planform was very similar to a big Gnat! That time we actually got a good stern AIM-7 firing one one of them, then an AIM-9 on the other; my navigator was a creme-de-la-creme QWI, so was an ace with the missile control system - I just pointed the jet where he asked.

[Paladini]

Wasn't Roger Dunsford, ex-AWC, involved with Black Buck?

[Exnomad]

As an aside, I was working with an RN officer at the time, and understood that any missing item in the entire RN inventory theoretically went down with the Sheffield. One further thought, the Sea Skua installation on the Lynx which I helped to design only ever sank a small vessel that was probably worth less than a Sea Skua.

[Woff1965]

I often wondered why the RAF took Shrike when the US had the more capable, longer ranged STANDARD ARM AGM 78 available. Surely the Vulcan could carry those.

Was it simply that that was all the US offered or wasn't it possible to clear the larger weapon for the Vulcan.

[Maple 01]

Dooh! trap_one's right, not SWAps, but Neat airspace south (ish) according to a 'source'

[Union Jack]

Scarecrow450

Including Richard Harris- Juggernaut( it's a film, jumping out of a C130 into the sea for IEDs on a liner) the C130 was in brown/black colour scheme- sorry I'll stop now.

No need to stop since the film was presumably based on the May 1972 real life incident on board QE2 - see http://tinyurl.com/66qemu for the details.

Jack

PS I wonder if the ATO was awarded para wings for his mid-ocean first jump .....

[Porrohman]

Probably just water wings :ok: (and a survival suit)

[Double Zero]

Eagle402,

I agree re. Shaun Connery's accent, but the book 'Hunt for Red October' is much better, though there's the odd howler such as '"armrests on Harrier ejection seats".

The ultimate, by the same author Tom Clancy which I'd love to see a film of ( - it would have to be largely computer-generated ) is 'Red Storm Rising' which sounded fantasy at the time but now sounds eerily possible...

[The Helpful Stacker]

Double Zero - Thats the only Tom Clancy book I'd really like to have seen made into a film too.

Two men in a jeep against the Russian hordes.;)

[LookingNorth]

Double Zero - the Shrikes having the possibility of overstressing pylons designed to carry ruddy great Skybolts doesn't sound very likely!! They certainly did have at least one successful Shrike attack, I met the Argie battery commander who was under it. Reckoned it was an exciting night.

[jammydonut]

The late Nish Bruce - SAS - who mysteriously fell 5000ft from a light aircraft without a parachute told me the story of the US/Argie troops that were captured. He also told me a the plan to invade Buenos Aires. The SAS were to HALO into various streets, chainsaw down telegraph and lamp posts so that C-130's could land........:hmm:

[The Helpful Stacker]

Thats a pretty meaty pylon for the Shrike.

http://www.raf.mod.uk/falklands/images/bbshrike.jpg

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

LookingNorth.



Stop ! "

Apparently the supporting pins/whatever on the pylons wouldn't stand even taxying over a bump...


Although the "lash up" Shrike pylons picked up the Skybolt pylon hard points on the main planes, they were not Skybolt pylons and it seems that only the attachment pins were the problem.

Woff1965. As I understand it, a longer range weapon wasn't needed because the aim was to push Johnny Gaucho to light up his RADAR and getting close achieved that. If only ALARM had been ready in time.

[ORAC]

and understood that any missing item in the entire RN inventory theoretically went down with the Sheffield. No, no no. :=:=

That was the Atlantic Conveyor. :p

[Piggies]

GBZ

That ALARM comment is a bit of a red herring. The Govt didn't even select it until the following year;)

[Art Field]

The picture tells the story, the extra drag from the Shrike fitment pushed the Vulcans' fuel consumption up considerably so that it was requiring an all out effort from the Victors to get one down to the Falklands remembering that the Vulcan was refuelling several times to max weight on the outbound leg.

[ZH875]

The Vulcan pylon could also carry one Anti-Radar Martel missile, which made the Shrike look like a toothpick.

A Martel equipped Vulcan made it down as far as Ascension, but that is as far as the Martel went.

[The Helpful Stacker]

That was the Atlantic Conveyor.

I believe conservative estimates have the Atlantic Conveyor carrying 4 times her maximum tonnage when she was sunk if all the write-off actions are to believed.:eek:

[Archimedes]

IIRC, the reason given for not using Martel was that there was concern that prolonged exposure to the temps at the altitude the Vulcan would fly might cause difficulties and render the weapon u/s when by the time it came to launch it?

[MAINJAFAD]

An ex-Martel techie once told me that the reason the Shrike was used, was because the Martel had a limited flight carriage life of something like 24 hours, which the Shrike didn't. The TPS-43 was damaged in the first Vulcan anti radar attack (Two missiles tuned to the TPS-43), though the damage was repaired (the Argies did trash it before we got our mits on it, I've seen photos of the damage when it was at Henlow in 1983/4 before it was fixed and based at Wattisham). Second attack was with four Shrikes, two for the TPS-43 and the others tuned for the Skyguards. one Skyguard taken out by the two Shrikes fired at it, one of the TPS-43 missile fired off to clear the launcher on the trip to Rio after the Vulcan's probe broke on the return AAR, and the other which misfired, impounded at Rio. As regards the Atlantic Conveyor, I've heard of stuff being written off from being on that ship when I reached the operational Air Force three years later.

[Double Zero]

JAFAD, thanks for the good gen' -sounds about right.

From what I've heard of Alarm, it might be better to chuck in the Red Devils using HALO trailing smoke from their ankles with backpacks full of C-4 ! At least I'm sure that's how the Hollywood film featuring 'Delta Force' will go...

Re. Atlantic Conveyor, I've noticed too that the load on this ship keeps creeping up, to the extent she was carrying more Chinooks than a Nimitz class could handle !

A very sad loss, I hope but have no real faith in the idea that the U.K. May have invested in the SCADS concept, at the very least as far as countermeasures go...here's to Captain Ian North & his crew.

[ZH875]

IIRC, the reason given for not using Martel was that there was concern that prolonged exposure to the temps at the altitude the Vulcan would fly might cause difficulties and render the weapon u/s when by the time it came to launch it?

Or it is more likely that the Martel would do one of its famous 'lose lock' tricks and either going ballistic or choosing a different target - like a British Ship!

I hate Martel and its MASTS trolley: 180 and 181 to 1..... then four hours of switching various switches, then fixing the blooming MASTS trolley.:{

[Jetex Jim]

The late Nish Bruce - SAS - who mysteriously fell 5000ft from a light aircraft without a parachute told me the story of the US/Argie troops that were captured. He also told me a the plan to invade Buenos Aires. The SAS were to HALO into various streets, chainsaw down telegraph and lamp posts so that C-130's could land........:hmm:


The way I heard it, the SAS were going to fly in on James Bond rocket packs...

[MightyGem]

The ultimate, by the same author Tom Clancy which I'd love to see a film of ( - it would have to be largely computer-generated ) is 'Red Storm Rising'
I believe it was required reading at Sandhurst at the time. Shame it made no mention of 1(BR) Corps, as it came straight through our area.

[MAINJAFAD]

Chris Gibson's book (British Secret Projects, Missiles and Hypersonics) does say that Martel was a bit of a pile of poo, now we know why.

[alwayslookingup]

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4153TGY1ZAL._SL500_AA240_.jpg (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/images/0316643033/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=266239&s=books)
Post 119 - JammyD - This is all covered fairly comprehensively in Nish's autobiography 'Freefall', written under the pseudonym Tom Read. An excllent book, covering his time in the Paras as well as the Regiment, it also covers his descent into paranoid psychosis, from which it is derived there is little mystery about his parachute-less jump from the Cessna. It was almost certainly suicide.

[conjurer]

I can confirm that the ATO did get presented his Para wings and for the remainder of his career when quizzed as to when he completed P Coy took great delight in saying he hadn't attempted it! When quizzed as to why he wasn't wearing a 'light bulb' para badge then used to take evener greater delight in saying he hadn't completed a jumps course either - he'd just made an operational jump! The ATO eventually retired from regular service in the late '90s.

[doubledolphins]

Have just got as far as 1982 in Andrew Marr's excellent, though slightly flawed in matters military, "History of Modern Britain." He claims the Yanks provided AWACs cover for the task force.

[RETDPI]

I had a creepy experience with "Freefall".
I was reading the book on vacation in Kenya a few years back.
As part of the holiday I was doing some diving with a sub-aqua club, run by an ex-Rhodie SAS guy who was also a sky diver.
He told me one day about having just been informed on the 'phone that his old buddy had stepped out of a Cessna over the Channel-without a 'chute.
Because of the nom de plume the penny didn't drop until I got back home here and picked up the obit in the ex-pat Daily telegraph.....

[Double Zero]

Having been very slightly invoved at the time, and more importantly spoken to Test & Operational pilots before & after, I understand they had little or no Intel' from American forces in later stages, apart from the earlier debacle of trying to knock out the Argie recce' 707 on the way down.


The 'U.S.' were actually great friends to us in various ways ...

[davejb]

DD

Have just got as far as 1982 in Andrew Marr's excellent, though slightly flawed in matters military, "History of Modern Britain." He claims the Yanks provided AWACs cover for the task force.


Does Andrew also explain 'When, with what, where from?'
Not having a pop at yourself here - we're all hostage to what we are told or read after all, but having flown surface surveillance for the TF (put bluntly - fly as far SE as you can, see what's out there') I think I'd have noticed an E3 sitting on the pan alongside as we did the preflights. Where did they fly from? It wasn't Wideawake, so where did the US AWACS operate from, that they could perform these sorties for the TF at any point between Ascension and the Falklands?

Sorry to rant, Nimrods flew sorties in excess of 10 hrs unrefuelled in the early days, prior to AAR, and following the intro of AAR they pottered along the S American coastline playing 'you can't see me, roight? (Think Harry Enfield show...think that was the one <g>)' for a while. Look at Google maps - compare the distance between Florida and Argentina to the distance between Ascension and Argentina. Make life easy for the US - measure from a part of South America that might conceivably allow US sorties in covert support of the Brits to be flown.

Then write and tell Andrew Marr he's got no idea about how far things are apart in the southern hemisphere, and he's full of **** <g>


I am sure Sandy Woodward would have been overjoyed to have AWACS support, I am equally sure he'd have gladly swapped our efforts (Nimrod) for a double pink gin - the US provided intel and satellite info, they did not fly operational sorties in the S Atlantic.

Dave
Dave

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Dave

Why assume an E-3? How about an E-2 off the boat?

[taxydual]

Or a photographic satellite in stationary orbit? 14521, I'm told.

[MAINJAFAD]

In fact, reading Jerry Pooks' excellent book ' RAF Harrier Ground Attack Falklands ' the French helped out a great deal with DACT involving Mirages & Super Etendards.

His book also backs up a great deal of what 'Sharkey' Ward mentioned, in that his team on Invincible were the only Seajet pilots fully trained up on the Blue Fox radar, and there was a serious lack of intelligence - in every sense - from Hermes - sorry if that doesn't suit some people, as it seems fashionable to knock Sharkey, but it all has a sadly 'ring true' factor to me...

Well just read it on your recommendation, and with chapters like, ‘More Navy Cockups’ and ‘Yet More Navy Cockups’ with explanations on how advice by people who actually knew what they were doing was totally ignored by the Flag staff on Hermes (backed up by Mike Clapp’s book, if you read between the lines). It does have a few errors in it, as does ‘Sea Harrier Over the Falklands’. But on the whole it rings true with what I’ve read on the subject from most sources I’ve seen, including the one I read back in 89 which is still as far as I know classified. Sharkey is wrong about the Vulcan in 'Sea Harrier' (most of his info in the book sounds like hearsay, events he quotes actually happened, but not in the order or circumstances that he places them), in that it was the most effective way of hitting the airfield at Stanley (Like a bomb from 607 did actually hit the runway, how many high altitude ones from the SHAR’s did??? Answer, about zero, I think you will find). As for the Shrike attacks, that TPS-43 was a major thorn in our operations, and the Vulcan ARM missions were the only way of nailing it (as stated, it very nearly came off). As for the TPS-43, I’ve actually been in it, when it was deployed to my unit in the 1990’s. Horrible purple CRT display’s and the inside of the thing was like a freezer, I wouldn’t have liked to have been an Argie operator of it in the Falklands.

[Ray Dahvectac]

He claims the Yanks provided AWACs cover for the task force.

He is wrong. They didn't.

[davejb]

Ewen,

Dave

Why assume an E-3? How about an E-2 off the boat?

Because there'd have had to have been a USN Carrier somewhere for it to fly off, and I think we'd have spotted an aircraft carrier, seeing as we were quite keen to locate the Argie one at the time.

As for satellites - yes, I'm sure satellite info was provided, but AWACS isn't satellite based and the question was whether the US provided AWACS to the fleet.

A geostationary satellite is in equatorial orbit (it has to be) and I'd be quite surprised if an equatorial satellite could 'see' something near the Falklands, which must be approx 50S...that's a slant range in excess of 3000nm. Any photo support would, I imagine, have been from a periodic overflight by a 'normally' orbiting photosat. I'd have thought Elint and radio intercept via satellite was probably more useful. (If you read the recent book about the sinking of the Belgrano it's apparent that somebody was reading the Argentine orders - make your own mind up about how that was being done).

How could a USAF AWACS fly in support of the fleet? It took masses of AAR to put each aircraft near the F.I., AAR's to refuel AARs, each creeping ever closer until the last tanker could refuel the Vulcan, Nimrod, Herc... (Vulcan 607 describes the extent of this AAR effort). Where did the AWACS and its associated AAR come from? It wasn't Ascension Is. and if you think Ascension was a long way from the F.I. then see how far away the next closest UK or US (or friendly enough to allow such a flight) base would have been.

No, even if I knew nothing about it anyway, I'd still have to say the whole idea has more holes in it than a big holey thing with a huge number of holes in it.

Mind you, Andrew Marr doubtless has as much idea of what AWACS is as most of the media - he probably thought he was describing the little shop on Ascension where you could buy flip flops and garish T shirts, or perhaps the Class 6.

Dave

[brickhistory]

TPS-43?!

Loved it! Great for controlling and getting inside a fight even at a merge.

"Raider 1, look through that bandit for 1/2 mile.........."

"Raider 1,tally two, fox two, fox two..........."


Good times............

[ORAC]

Depends what you'd been used to operating, if you'd been operating the T259 (http://www.radarpages.co.uk/mob/tactatc/s259_1.htm), then the T-43 was like something like the sensor out of the starship Enterprise... :ouch:

[MAINJAFAD]

Seen it the other way around, Scopie who'd worked on SLEWC and T94 get thrown into a T95 (S259). the comment ' What's this Sh!t' when he found it had no computer labelled displays and returns the size of sausages. Priceless!!!

[Double Zero]

I don't think the Seajet pilots had many hopes with CCIP aiming, just hoped they might get lucky ! Which I suppose is why BL755's were a popular option.

I filmed ( both externally & more usefully P.D.R. & pods ) most bombing trials of F.R.S.1 & 2, then G.R.5; a lot seemed to concentrate on dive attacks, which would obviously have been suicidal in the real world, like the Wonder-Bomber's JP-233...

Although the GR5 etc has the ARBS dual-mode tracker ( what fun it was to see bombs going into range targets a rather short distance away ) I'm always amazed when I read of the duff attempts in the F.I. With GR3 LRMTS & Paveway - surely might have been worth asking someone who knew the systems - I can think of several people who'd have known - or doing an urgent test range trial first !

[nmt]

The T-43 was the mutts nuts! Although a digital baby I did enjoy the joys of the "purple tube" at Loch Ewe and Otterburn. (All puns intended)

[Warmtoast]

I'd have thought Elint and radio intercept via satellite was probably more useful. (If you read the recent book about the sinking of the Belgrano it's apparent that somebody was reading the Argentine orders - make your own mind up about how that was being done

FWIW Former Labour Foreign Affairs minister Edward (Ted) Rowlands MP (now Baron Rowlands), in a debate in Parliament on the Falklands War on 3 April 1982 revealed that we (the British) were reading Argentine diplomatic codes. Rowlands was criticised for revealing this intelligence source, as the likely result of his disclosure was that the Argentinians would secure their systems and the intelligence would dry up. Mrs Thatcher called it "utterly devastating".

As Labour MP for Merthyr Tydfil, Rowlands was an experienced former Foreign Office minister in the Labour government who was involved in earlier Falklands negotiations in the late 1970's

He remained a Labour MP and from 1987 onwards served on the Foreign Affairs Select Committee. His "reading the codes" disclosure obviously had no effect on his future prospects as he was appointed a CBE in 2002, and in June 2004 he was given a life peerage, as Baron Rowlands of Merthyr Tydfil and of Rhymney.

As Hansard reported on Rowlands' participation in the debate on 3 April 1982:

Secondly, I have great difficulty in understanding how the intelligence failed. Our intelligence in Argentina was extremely good. That is why we took action in 1977. We found out that certain attitudes and approaches were being formed. I cannot believe that the quality of our intelligence has changed. Last night the Secretary of State for Defence asked "How can we read the mind of the enemy?" I shall make a disclosure. As well as trying to read the mind of the enemy, we have been reading its telegrams for many years. I am sure that many sources are available to the Government, and I do not understand how they failed to anticipate some of the dangers that suddenly loomed on the horizon.

[taxydual]

Where's the Treason Act when you want it? And to get a peerage as well!!!

[Archimedes]

I think he managed to get away with it thanks to the fact that, as usual, no-one, including the Argentines, paid any great attention to anything he said...

[Union Jack]

Conjurer

I can confirm that the ATO did get presented his Para wings ....

Delighted to hear it, and also very taken with his modest response to questions as to how he "qualified"! Many thanks.

Jack

[Ray Dahvectac]

as usual, no-one, including the Argentines, paid any great attention to anything he said...
Unlike the 'I speak your weight' pronouncements of official MoD spokesman Ian McDonald, who explained that the reason the 1,000lb bombs the Argies were rolling off the ramps of their Herc were not exploding, was that they were being dropped from insufficient height to allow the bombs to arm correctly.

Next day they worked. :ugh:

[RETDPI]

As I recall it that was the BBC talking about bombs dropped by Skyhawks. Ian McDonald was very carefully scripted.

[Ray Dahvectac]

Ian McDonald was very carefully scripted. True, and most of his scripts were written (or at least, vetted) by Sir Frank Cooper, then PUS at MoD and a former Spitfire pilot (and, briefly a PoW before his escape).

Perhaps time and impending old age are dulling the memory, but I vaguely remember the McDonald monotone talking about the C130 bombing efforts. Perhaps that was after the BBC had let the cat out of the bag though.

[Heimdall]

Since the end of the Falklands War in 1982 there has been considerable speculation about the support and facilities provided by Chile to the UK. The publication of ‘The Official History of the Falklands Campaign’ by Sir Lawrence Freedman has at last shed fresh light of what actually happened.

Undoubtedly the most significant assistance provided by Chile, which can be confirmed with certainty, was in allowing a powerful radar to be sighted near the border with Argentina to give advance warning of Argentinean fighters taking off for sorties against the Task Force.

Certain previous histories of the Falklands Air War, noteably 'Sea Harrier over the Falklands' by Commander Sharkey Ward, have commented on how the RN Sea Harriers often had an uncanny ability to be in the right place at the right time when attacking Argentinean fighters arrived. We now know that it certainly wasn’t due to the telepathic ability of the brave, but rather self-serving and egotistical ‘Sharkey’ Ward, but was yet again down to the timely gathering and dissemination of accurate intelligence - in this case not by a USAF E-3A or USN E-2C, but by UK forces on the ground.

There's more on this topic here http://www.spyflight.co.uk/chile.htm

Heimdall

[ninja-lewis]

I thought the raid warning was attributed to the submarines lying off the Argentine coast? The Times IIRC did an article on it a while back. Admittedly I haven't had a chance to read the Official History myself.

[Manuel de Vol]

Quote:"I think i read somewhere..possibly Vulcan 607?! that the U.S. provided a Tanker moored off of Ascension , to provide enough fuel for the Black Missions. Without it the Bombing of Stanley would never have taken place"

The tanker was a Maersk Line vessel with a British Crew.

[Manuel de Vol]

Quote:"Like it or not Ladies and Gentlemen, there is no doubt that the UK had "tacit" assistance from the U.S. during the Falklands War.
This may not have come as direct military logistical help, but given the tight political relationship between Thatcher and Regan at the time, intelligence and political pressure would have been made available at every opportunity."

Intelligence, yes.

'Concertina City' down on 'American Base' (The US/NASA enclave) was supplied by the 4055th Mobility Support Squadron from Holloman AFB.

[Double Zero]

ELINT by our ( & possibly other peoples' ) sub's yes as far as I know - but how was even a U.S. carrier going to accommodate an E-3 ?!

I rather doubt the U.S. wanted assets other than satellites too near.

If R.N. TLAM's had been available, it might have been extremely tempting to chuck some towards the Arg' airbases, in conventional cluster mode, though that would mean a distinct escalation; as it was I understand we sent some people even more problematical for the enemy, though mainly in a recce' role - full story yet to be released to the likes of me.

[bondo]

Agree with Dave AWACS were never there, myths grow arms and legs and Marr should know better or do some proper research!

[Double Zero]

The Chileans had good reasons of their own for placing such a radar near the Arg' border ( though maybe asking for something nasty & pointy to come the other way ) - but that would have instantly meant 2 fronts, which the Arg's had probably seen enough history to be wary of - or maybe even had real ' 4th Reich ' advisors along to avoid that one !

I understood from very good sources the Chileans, who are a good lot - then again so are the Argentinians when not led / forced by idiots ! - Were well rewarded by the U.K. For their help, no delay or messing around - but as it's only been hinted at in anything I've seen published, I'd better shut up, sure you'll all agree with that.

[AR1]

Talking to an undercover Gen Eng fitter back in '86, he told me that Maplin electronics had foiled an Argentinian plot, to purchase 7000 miles of Twin and Earth electrical flex, via numerous single orders to their mail order catalogue.

Enough flex to enable one their electric subs to operate off the south coast of the UK.

That could have been disastrous for the departing task force.

[SpringHeeledJack]

Talking to an undercover Gen Eng fitter back in '86, he told me that Maplin electronics had foiled an Argentinian plot, to purchase 7000 miles of Twin and Earth electrical flex, via numerous single orders to their mail order catalogue.

Shurely you musht be mishtakin shir (bad Sean Connery accent) :)




SHJ

[Goffee]

"I'm not sure the US of A directly supplied AIM 9-Ls,"

IIRC, Andy McNab, according to one of his biogs, babysat an airfreight load of them back to the UK from US.

Could be wrong, but my 2p worth

[AR1]

9-L

Always wondered. Were they really that significant given that (as far as I can make out) any engagements were made by our lads achieving the golden shot from behind.

Thoughts /experience?

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Manuel de Vol. The Asi tanker was indeed from the Maersk Line. As were several other Tankers, Ships Taken Up From Trade, she was chartered directly by the MoD. As I remember her, she had less "oily" decks than the BP River Class STUFTs and played less part in destroying a perfectly good pair of leather work shoes!

[Double Zero]

Well I suppose it's an idea, to trail a wire all the way from Argentina to the UK, - there are plenty of transatlantic cables, but they are very heavy ( even with light-bulb style twin core, how much do you reckon 8000 miles would weigh !!!) laid from specialised ships which might rather draw attention in several ways .

The Argentinians came up with some good ideas, and I don't reckon they would have contemplated this one !

[Eagle402]

Knowing Maplins they would have sent the wrong type anyway.....

[steamchicken]

I'm surprised, given the frequent cites of VULCAN 607, no-one's mentioned that it explicitly states that a UK delegation including the Government Chief Scientist (Professor Ronald Mason) and Defence Secretary (John Nott) went to the US to ask for satellite imagery and were refused.There was no satellite imagery from the Americans. Neither Professor Ronald Mason, the government's chief scientific adviser, nor the Defence Secretary, John Nott, were able to persuade them to divert a KH-11 satellite away from NATO duties, much to both men's frustration. Page 173 of the Corgi softback edition.

[Pontius Navigator]

Not to suggest in any way that an E3 was actually able to provide surveillance but just to make sure you are looking at the right map.

From Panama City to west of the FI, ie over Chile, is well within range of an E3. Without FR it would have to recover to a Chilean base but with FR it could even recover to Panama City.

[brickhistory]

is well within range of an E3.

African or European?











No, don't get up. I'll show myself out.......................

[High_lander]

African or European?

I know have the scene on the bridge in my head

:D

[taxydual]

Will we ever know the truth?

I hope not.

Just in case there's a repeat performance.

Big brother is/maybe/could be watching and.................

Oh, say! can you see by the dawn's early light
What so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming;

[bucketyr]

Just read your article whilst looking for something else. I too was an ATCO (Mil) at Eastern during the work up for the Falklands. I distinctly remember taking a flight of F5's out of Alconbury to work in the Wash ATA. when they came on frequency they asked where the Harriers were!
Midland radar operated the Wash ATA so someone from there may remember more details.

Bucketyr

[Double Zero]

The Aim9L's had just been on the first FRS1 trials; RN Test Pilot Taylor Scott ( and I suspect some other T'P's ) made great efforts to ensure the CAP Seajets were equipped with this weapon 'not at the time in the UK inventory' complete with 190 gallon drop tanks & 2 missiles a side - though this made handling tricky, and some reports ( from Test Pilots who were there ) reckoned the mod's never got there in time.

More to add shortly...

DZ

[BEagle]

More to add shortly...

OK - but please no more apostrophe abuse!

[Double Zero]

I was just going to add, on a serious note, that the first Sea Harrier to fly ( XZ450, in the hands of John Farley, August 1978 ) was also set up & instrumented for the Sea Eagle anti-ship missile - a more intelligent & harder hitting thing than the Exocet.

Sadly ( to say the least ) this aircraft was the first victim to ground fire, on an early iron bomb raid into Goose Green.

Pilot Nick Taylor didn't have a chance to get out, but the story goes that when the Argentines found the missile control panel, they wrongly assumed the fleet were ready to go with the weapon.

[XV277]

Larger tanks and twin (4) missile fit didn't make it in time for the end of hostilities.

[octavian]

Have just seen post 176, I think it was, from bucketyr. Bonjour Guy? The Midland Radar overhead would have absorbed anything in its path let alone the Wash ATA, assuming they weren't continged for lunch or a unit photo.

"Thank you for calling Midland Radar. I'm afraid we can't take your call at the moment, but if you leave your callsign, positition, heading, level and type of service required, we'll get back to you as soon as possible."

Thank goodness we were at Eastern eh?

[Always a Sapper]

Quote:
...he fired 2 or 3 rounds into the prostrate enemy to break away. Now you all know the power of an SLR. This guy took 3 rounds in the head at less that 4 feet and SURVIVED.

I'm a confirmed lurker, but I nearly sprayed my coffee when I read that. How is that even possible? There's no way all three rounds (if any) entered the skull - his brain would be mush a la JFK, surely? If was an HP, maybe...

What head? SLR? that man held artillery piece would rip limbs off if the hit was in the bone... or just strip the flesh if not. Even a close miss would hurt!