Anyone done a SOIA for real?

[keith smith]

Simultaneous Offset Instrument Approach is FAA/NASA's misguided answer to the ever-growing problem of IMC approaches to closely-spaced parallel runways (there are more than half a dozen separated by 1000ft or less in the US). Their attitiude is controller-orientated with monitoring based on a souped-up approach radar. The result is the best they can do IFR IS 3400 ft separation, so with a 2000ft cloudbase and starting with the follower of a pair initialy laterally offset from runway centreline the pilot-flying can safely do an S-turn for landing. Since a wholly VFR approach can be done with a cloud base of about 4000ft it seems like a lot of effort for a comparatively little benefit to regularity.
The only real solution is to make the IMC operation similar to that for VMC----- pilot to pilot operated and monitored. Thi requires GPS- generated approach, HUD and ADS-B, the last one of which will be with us soon.

[point8six]

Why not try the above in plain English with correct spelling? Perhaps then we would understand your point!

[tflier]

0.86 why so vitriolic so quickly? Tut tut.

[keith smith]

0.86 it is pretty basic.
1.US has a plethora of closely spaced parallel runway pairs, and when the weather clamps, approaches effectively operate on one runway rather than two, hence halving landing rate.
2. Possibility for building more runways is remote, partly on cost grounds, but mostly on environmental ones. Delays can only get worse, and although US carriers are mostly affected, global longhaul operators have a stake.
3.FAA/ NASA have developed a new approach monitor radar with good accuracy and high scan rate, but even so the best that can be realised in the presence of "blunders" by the lead aircraft is a safe separation of 3400ft. This is limited by the time lags in the controller recognising the blunder, transmitting to the trailing pilot and his respone.
4. The FAA rsponse to this is to introduce SOIA withits limited benfit 9 lowering allowable cloud base to about 2000 ft from an VFR value of 4000ft. I was merely seeking any experience form the sharp end.
5.I am convinced that the only long term solution to this problem is a pilot centred operation using the technologies that I cited.Unfortunately I don's see FAA going in this direction

[Admiral346]

I was trained years ago, but have never flown one, nor seen it offered except for on the approach charts anywhere I flew into (about 1- 2 flights to the US per month).

Nic

[point8six]

SOIA approaches ( ILS-PRM and LDA-PRM )are not promulgated just by the FAA. They are in use in Sydney, Australia as well and these type of approaches have been available for a few years.
Sorry to have appeared 'vitriolic', but the original post had a question as a header, but no question in the post itself. What is the problem with these types of approaches? I do not understand the need for "s-turns" following a LDA-PRM approach.
For airline operation, SOIA's require mandatory training, preferably simulator based, and careful reading of the requirements in the airfield plates (Jeppesens). With his reference to HUD and ADS-B, I suspect Keith may be GA -orientated, as airline use of both is some years away yet. It is in use in Australia( but not compulsory), apparently being introduced in the U.S. this year and has a provisional date for Europe as 2015.
Personally, I find SOIA's a logical use of resources to maximise approach flows, especially where airports cannot expand geographically to cope with the increase in air traffic.

[keith smith]

Point 86 makes several points:
1.ADS-B is a little way off, even in the US. Yes,but if we are going to do better than SOIA, we need to start developing the role of ADS-B in next generation closely spaced IMC approaches. For example the recent NPRM does not include the parameter roll angle, which is a visual cue that would give the trailing pilot maximum warning of a blunder by the leading aircraft.
2.I used the term"S-turn", but perhaps this is wrong terminology. It means doing a turn towards the runway when visual, followed by an opposite turn to align with the runway.
3.I am not against SOIA per se, but I was trying to find out what actual users thought of its value in practice. Also, what do pax make of it, and do you tell them beforehand?
4.What I do find disturbing is the official attitude, saying that SOIA is the bees knees, and seemingly nothing further in the NextGen plans

[keith smith]

Not many replies to this one. Does that mean I can conclude that it hasn't been widely practiced?:sad:

[point8six]

Plenty of practice and anticipation, but not much evidence of "real-time" ILS-PRMs or LDA-PRMs.
What are the airports in the US that you think will introduce SOIAs? I know of SFO(KSFO) how about KLAX,KSEA,KEWR,KMCO?
Cost of implementation will obviously be a major factor to ATC units and airlines in these days of tightening budgets.