I guess they don't like Heli's !!!! [Archive]

SgtBilko

30th Apr 2008, 08:22

Extract of Turville Parish Council minutes 17/1/2008
"Helicopter Noise
David Shufflebotham (01494 883728) is leading protests in South Bucks against excessive helicopter noise and has contacted Paul Goodman our MP for support – currently there is no legislation against noise from civilian helicopters. He is particularly concerned over weekend training for trainee pilots. The MOD is a "law unto themselves" so there is no chance of getting restrictions for military flights according to Mr. Shufflebotham."

He has also enlisted the help of CPRE http://www.cpresurrey.org.uk/assets/pdf/Surrey_Voice_07_08_8pp.pdf

"CPRE Surrey took part in an initial meeting at the AEF (Aviation Environment Federation) office in London with the Helicopter Noise Coalition's founder David Shfflebotham and other interested parties. Battersea Heliport is a shared concern for all of us, as flights from there cover a wide geographical area. The group needs to demonstrate the number of people who are affected by helicopter noise and will have help from the Environmental Law Foundation."

K48

30th Apr 2008, 08:36

GOTO Tools internet options, cookie section, settings, view cookies folder.... two windows open click and delete.. try and get to the next percent.. I got to 6% wahey! Very satisfying... Will delete these instrctions in a few days.

BTW I notice that one vote sometimes 1 vote equals 2 points....are they cheating? unless someone else was voting at the same time as me.. Also the question of the survey is preselective so their figures count for nothing statistically. A survey would have to be conducted for real away from said website (random population) and a suitable question would be: "Were you irritated by any noise pollution today?" If answer "Yes".. then "What type of noise?" Car/Motorbike/ Aeroplane/Helicopter/Roadworks/Mower... or no leading options at all, etc etc. I don't think helos will feature. Cars, motorbikes, mowers maybe.
It's dangerous/misleading what they are doing.... click away with no guilt!!!

Gainesy

30th Apr 2008, 09:18

Its up to 839 now. Well, I was truthful, had no heli noise in the last 7 days. Lots of night flying Chinooks & Merlins though.:)

JTobias

30th Apr 2008, 09:45

My RSI is kicking in now.
Might have to use a different finger.:ok:

Gaseous

30th Apr 2008, 15:20

Well done. 1000 of you have now voted;)

Camp Freddie

30th Apr 2008, 15:51

I'm on it ! with IE7 i am using ccleaner to clear the cookies then vote.

AOL browser wont let me vote again dont know how to fix that, but it doesnt matter if IE7 works, will try to do 100 later

Lost Again

30th Apr 2008, 15:58

I see that the site is run by someone in Wycombe - probably the same person who complains about the helis to the tower and the 2 operators when they come over his house - despite having moved there after the airfield started to operate.

We should all take our noise seriously - here at Abingdon we have the boys and girls from Benson and Brize Playing on the airfield - I have on a number of occasions had comments from locals who know I fly about the noise to which I reply "if you had a child in the forces would you like them to go into a war zone without proper training" - this normally shuts them up.

Remember that minority activists (twats to us) will always win - as they are sad enough to complain, organise and stir till they get their way.

30 years ago if you were told fox hunting would be banned and fishermen would be pushed into the river would you have believed it ???????

sorry for the rant but they do p-ss me off

regards

Richard

CRAZYBROADSWORD

30th Apr 2008, 16:57

I just posted this on their sight awaiting the reply lol muhahahahah

"Oh my god i thought I had seen it all but this web site has to be a joke do you have any idea what planet you are living on? where the hell do you think the pilots of EMS and police helicopters learn to fly they don't spring out of the ground!!

And I would like to point out that most helicopters flights take place from and to airports that have been in place a lot longer than muppets like you have been living near them.

You clearly have no idea of the importance of helicopters to those who use them, who might very well locate their bussiness somewhere more helpful if anybody starts listerning to the likes of short sighted mindless fools like your goodself.

P.S all those who register against should also ban themself from every taken an airline flight or use an airambulance etc.

Kind regards James"

Whirlygig

30th Apr 2008, 17:06

CBS, if you have the opportunity to edit your post on their forum, may I suggest that you don't call them "muppets"? Muppets they may be but it won't help our arguments if we get insulting.

Cheers

Whirls

CRAZYBROADSWORD

30th Apr 2008, 17:37

yeah your right I should have waited for the smoke to stop coming out of my ears before i wrote anything but these kind of people do my nut!!!!!!!!!

Foxy Loxy

30th Apr 2008, 18:06

Two more added here! :ok:

Foxy

g-mady

30th Apr 2008, 19:27

Well when I posted about the poll last night I NEVER expected this response! Good job people :ok:

BTW - I fly into High Wycombe and the Noise abatement procedure because of this couple requires us (single engine heli's) to fly very low over a very dense bit of wood on finals.
So we have to put our, and possibly our passengers lives at risk for THEM! We may not be air ambulance or police but we are still putting ourselves in danger for them!

They are well know around the airfield... The couple who have started a national campaigne against helicopters!

MADY

Oops! we just made 1158! Im not stopping yet!

Overdrive

1st May 2008, 03:31

I've added another 200-odd by a certain semi-automated technique (which I think the server has now "got wise" to, but I'll be back).

So the PPRuNe count is now 1425, and > 10% .

This is war now....... :E

The Nr Fairy

1st May 2008, 05:15

From the web site's "Aims" page:

5. To have helicopter training located in uninhabited areas or over the sea. Who, in their right minds, would locate afresh today such helicopter training in the highly-populated Thames Valley or other highly populated region?

They've done their research about unpopulated areas close to population centres, AND about the value of training over a flat area in a single :)

Whirlygig

1st May 2008, 07:10

The trouble is, if it was pointed out to them the hazards of training in uninhabited areas, over the sea etc (engine failure, mechanical problem etc), then the antis would have more ammunition to say that helicopters are dangerous.

Groups like this never listen to reason, they have a bee in their bonnet and, if they successfully campaigned against one thing and "got it banned", they would have to turn their attention to something else.

Cheers

Whirls

misterbonkers

1st May 2008, 07:26

we could all chip in and buy the house next door, move in toys such as motorbikes, lawnmowers, fast cars and have them running all day. Or, with a more environmental approach, turn it into a boarding kennel full of barking dogs!

I'm guessing the people running this ' anti ' site are retired and have a lot of time on their hands? It would be interesting to know what they did or do for a living.

g-mady

1st May 2008, 07:33

yes they are retired, dont know what they used to do though. Just North of the High wycombe airfield boundary is the motorway - they live just to the north of that.
Very close to the airfield. Fixed wing traffic passed quite close but at 1000ft, but the northern join is low level.

1500 now... keep going! :ok:

This is close to Cpt Hollywoods thread on the R88 for post of the year!

JTobias

1st May 2008, 14:44

I'm on a mission now.
Not gonna stop voting till my mouse breaks.
(Then I'll get another one!)

Joel

manfromuncle

1st May 2008, 15:05

It's not hard to find out who the site owners are.

I think you are a little bit off G-MADY.

We all best avoid this location:

http://tinyurl.com/5plszf

g-mady

1st May 2008, 15:56

To be honest there are several houses around Wycombe air park that cause alot of fuss.
I know the houses north of the motorway for sure started a campaign. And are certainly ones to avoid, the registered address is one of the others!

MADY

manfromuncle

1st May 2008, 16:52

Oh yeah, I don't doubt it. Just like every other airfield in the UK.

I love this bit on the site:

Additionally, we fully recognise the vested interests of helicopter manufacturers and heliport and helicopter operators, who have invested large amounts of their own, or their investors', capital to generate shareholder profits. However these profits are generated at a vile environmental cost. We fully expect these vested interests to oppose our aims by whatever means, lobbying their influential networks to obfuscate our vision.

He obviously hasn't looked at the accounts of the average UK FTO!

'Chuffer' Dandridge

1st May 2008, 20:38

S'funny, I thought I saw Mr Shufflebums phone number in a west end phone box yesterday advertising some very dubious practices.........:E

Spunk

2nd May 2008, 07:14

... Germany... 5 points :E:E

AndyJB32

2nd May 2008, 08:49

Hi there, i don't think we're going to acheive much by trying to win a poll on their website. There will always be a larger number number of people signing up to a website aimed at cutting helicopter noise who agree with the argument rather than disagree. The majority of people who become aware of the website would have found it because they were looking for a way of complaining about noise in the first place - i don't think many people who have never thought about aircraft noise, because they aren't affected by it, would have the need to start searching out a website that is polling people on this issue.

In the same way as if you took a poll of all the members on pprune, i'm sure the outcome would be overwhelmingly in favour of helicopters, and accepting of the noise that goes with them. That doesn't mean however, that there isn't an issue with noise that should be taken seriously. If someone has gone to the effort of setting up this website, then they are obviously being adversely affected by helicopters, and so naturally have a negative view of them. Has anyone thought of contacting the website, and trying to arrange an informal meeting with them, to have a discussion and a few beers. Who knows , we may all find we have less to argue about and more common ground than we realise? We may be able to see their point of view a bit more clearly, and more importantly, they might be able to see our position.

Andy

freerideroj2

2nd May 2008, 09:20

Ok.........I`ve done my bit!

A.Agincourt

2nd May 2008, 11:04

The noise generated from the motorway is by far the most invasive. During the day it almost goes un noticed because of familiarity - its an almost normal background - but during the quieter times of the day and evening, it is far worse than the occasional aircraft. I am sure there are many out there who live similarly, in proximity to a motorway or indeed railway and you might agree.

I live in proximity [sound wise] to 3 military airfields and am under the arrival flight path of a main airport. I chose to live here and to be honest with you, I get really stressed about the traffic on the road outside my house even behind triple glazing. Aircraft noise - WTF is that? Hardly ever heard any!!!!!!!!!! [above the noise of the traffic] I suspect that these dolts are pretty much in the same circumstances and are pretty much bored with little else to do. Sad. Very Sad.

Best Wishes

JTobias

2nd May 2008, 11:40

Setting up a meeting may be a good idea.
Maybe we could all fly in !!:p
(Mouse and index finger need maintenance now!)

ShyTorque

2nd May 2008, 13:11

Has anyone thought of contacting the website, and trying to arrange an informal meeting with them, to have a discussion and a few beers.

Yes, YOU have. Well volunteered, that man. :D

As we speak, I'm being subjected to the noise of an electric concrete breaker; it's been going on continually for hours because yet another neighbour is having a new conservatory put in. I think these noisy implements should be used only in uninhabited areas, or over the sea, because I think they are noisy and dangerous. :mad:

Also, I'm jealous because I see conservatories as rich people's playthings and I can't afford one so I don't want to see or hear anything to remind me of the fact that they exist.. :rolleyes:

AndyJB32

2nd May 2008, 14:24

If i cared about the noise abatement argument in this case enough i would do. To be honest though, i don't, so just thought i'd make the suggestion to see if anyone else was more noble than me!;)

PPrude1234

3rd May 2008, 23:34

Just done a WHOIS search on the website. It's is registered to a David Shufflebotham. Google that name along with "helicopter" and you will find unconfirmed minutes of the Nov 2006 Turville Parish Counil meeting.

"
(e) Helicopter Noise
David Shufflebotham (01494 883728) is leading protests in South Bucks against excessive helicopter noise and has contacted Paul Goodman our MP for support – currently there is no legislation against noise from civilian helicopters. He is particularly concerned over weekend training for trainee pilots. The MOD is a "law unto themselves" so there is no chance of getting restrictions for military flights according to Mr. Shufflebotham.
"

Twit!

Cheers,
T

Sikorsky

4th May 2008, 08:07

10 more votes delivered, moved the percentage from 22,2% to 22,3% :ok:

Gaseous

4th May 2008, 08:42

The other scores have not changed since I first looked at this poll. I think the 12269 has been fabricated by HNC. It looks as though the only votes it gets at all are from you lot. This is typical of the behaviour of pressure groups. The poll is sheer fiction intended to support their cause - and why not? Its their website. They can put what they like on it. I bet they weren't expecting you lot though.:ok:

scooter boy

4th May 2008, 11:38

Amazing that people buy a house near an existing airfield then complain about noise ad nauseam.

Rather ironically and surprisingly some of the worst noise complainers are from the aviation community itself.

I was looking at buying a business property near a regional airport that is pretty busy with jet traffic recently. The agent told me that the airport noise was an issue and the property would fetch far more if it were situated differently. I nodded sagely and agreed with him - what I didn't tell him was that I loved the smell of kerosene in the morning, the noise will be increased a little by my helilcopter coming in and out and that accessibility to the regional airport is a positive attribute in my opinion.

Console yourself with the knowledge that these miserable complaining so and sos are upsetting themselves far more with this nonsense than they are the rest of us.

SB

John Eacott

4th May 2008, 11:59

I nodded sagely and agreed with him - what I didn't tell him was that I loved the smell of kerosene in the morning, the noise will be increased a little by my helicopter coming in and out and that accessibility to the regional airport is a positive attribute in my opinion.

Console yourself with the knowledge that these miserable complaining so and sos are upsetting themselves far more with this nonsense than they are the rest of us.

I took great delight a few years ago when a new neighbour chose to complain to the council about my landings in my back paddock. Delight at the council telling him they know all about the landings, they can't do anything about it as I've been operating for 20+ years and have grandfather rights, and even if they could do anything, they wouldn't :D

The complainant, being a Broadmeadows bogan, finds it totally acceptable to grind around his lawn all day most Sundays on a trail bike :rolleyes:
He's also the only neighbour to have been missed off the invites for local joy flights :p

biggles99

4th May 2008, 18:31

great thread, but one central point has been missed:

if it wasn't for silly people sueing everyone for "product liability", and the awesome type certification requirements,

we'd have engines (and possibly blades) that made our aircraft as quite as a Lexus. And they'de be a lot more economical to boot.

bet it's the same sort of people who start these petitions that are now whinging about the excessive noise we all make.

Big Ls

g-mady

9th May 2008, 20:49

Half way there! 6000 barrier smashed!!!

MADY

mini

9th May 2008, 22:25

Someone needs to take a "snapshot" of the poll results on a regular basis, methinks that once they cop the erosion in their position they may adopt ZANU-PF style tactics and "manipulate" the vote... :sad:

rotorcraig

10th May 2008, 18:42

Looks like Shufflebottom's not just against helis; according to Bucks Free Press (http://www.bucksfreepress.co.uk/mostpopular.var.2029957.mostviewed.aircraft_movements_will_d amage_the_environment.php) he's a Wycombe NIMBY in general:

HIGH Wycombe's air park is set to become home to more planes after plans were passed to extend one of its hangars, despite an outcry from residents.David Shufflebotham, representing the Wycombe Air Park Action Group, spoke at the committee meeting last Wednesday to oppose the plans.
He said: "Any increase in aircraft movements will further damage the environment for which you are responsible - the green belt, AONB."
RC

johned0

10th May 2008, 19:02

Who's to say that they haven't already. Prior to our "intervention" the results certainly did not reflect a normal distribution that you would expect in this kind of poll. Even allowing for the fact that the kind of people who frequent this site have a biased view and need to get a life it was a very strange result :ugh:

I think we can be fairly certain that they didn't set all of the counts to zero when they started the poll.

J.

Garfs

11th May 2008, 01:25

The Helicopter Noise Coalition is a forum for everyone in the UK whose lives are adversely affected by helicopters' noise

Have to say this made me laugh. "Oh No theres a helicopter flying past my house, NOOOOOOOOOOOO"

What a joke :)

Old Skool

12th May 2008, 22:10

rotorcraig, i must take you to task, if you quote please make all effort to get the quote correct, clearly the end of the last quotation should read 'A NOB'

Flashover999

12th May 2008, 23:19

Not sure if its the same D.S but maybe we should start hovering over cricket grounds as well. Just as he receives a googley will be about right!

http://www.hornseycricketclub.co.uk/memberprofile/memberID_8949/David_Shufflebotham.aspx

:E:E:E......:E:E:E
........:E:E:E.......
:E:E:E.......:E:E:E

Freewheel

13th May 2008, 02:57

Buy the place next to John Eacott.

If I clear his letterbox when he's away & look after the animals, I might get to sit next to him in the BK......

Heli-phile

17th May 2008, 10:17

Idiots live near an airport then complain about the noise. There cannot be too many residents (still Living) that were there before the airport. Everyone else should just STFU complaining.

Thanks for the location, must be sure to avoid it !!:D

Whirlygig

17th May 2008, 11:41

It's a shame that their forum is still closed for maintenance - I'm looking forward to explaining a few things on there!

Nice to see the votes are more "balanced" now!

On a similar vein, there's a thread in Private Flying here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=320900) and the complainent, Ms K. Lacey has registered on Pprune to put across her "well-reasoned" :rolleyes: arguments!

Cheers

Whirls

Heli-phile

19th May 2008, 06:50

Careful they might be Opus Dei, albino types and nasty garter belts type of thing!!!!:eek:
it is Church road they live in after all!!:\

cldrvr

19th May 2008, 10:43

I will have the vote well over 12,000 today! :)

Need money

19th May 2008, 11:28

I can only assume cldrvr is good to his word - every time I hit refresh another vote has been added.

9677 now.....

Good work

cldrvr

19th May 2008, 14:15

Hmmm, according to the Helicopter Noice website over 50% of the general population in the UK experience no noise incidents.

Overdrive

19th May 2008, 15:06

At last... realistic, fair voting is reflecting the true picture of the noise position as it actually is ;)

cldrvr

19th May 2008, 16:50

Yes looks like they have come to their senses, planes and helis don't make noise, they are not annoying, they benefit us all.

rotorcraig

25th May 2008, 19:10

Latest scores on the doors:

How many helicopter noise incidents have you had in last 7 days...

None 22025 64%
Many times everyday 12287 35.7%

So on the basis of the coalition's own statistics, the problem has reduced significantly and appears to be reducing on a daily basis :D

Well done everybody!!!

RC

Need money

17th Apr 2009, 12:52

Now I am sure that the last time I saw this, those NOT affected was somewhat higher than it appears now.......

....me thinks this is fixed !!

Helicopter Noise Coalition - How many helicopter noise incidents have you had in last 7 days... (http://www.helicopter-noise.org.uk/index.php?option=com_poll&task=results&id=15)

Also realised none of the stats add up !

:ugh:

Whirlygig

17th Apr 2009, 13:04

Yes, it's definitely been rigged.

Cheers

Whirls

widgeon

17th Apr 2009, 13:07

around 70% are not affected ( they dont show that of course if the total vote of 41,136 is correct ). Stil does not make sense why none is only 148 . I am actually surprised so many people would bother to vote to say they have not been affected.

Flying Pencil

17th Apr 2009, 13:22

Why are you surprised widgeon? I've just done exactly that!! :ok:

johned0

17th Apr 2009, 13:33

Check out the efforts of g-mady (good boy) :ok:

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/324957-i-guess-they-dont-like-helis.html

and mini suggested :

Someone needs to take a "snapshot" of the poll results on a regular basis, methinks that once they cop the erosion in their position they may adopt ZANU-PF style tactics and "manipulate" the vote...

J.

vaibronco

17th Apr 2009, 13:58

hope they will never organize elections in any democratic country, or maybe uk has some 5000 helicopters flying every day, a pilot's paradise, maybe I would find a job :}

Benjamin James

17th Apr 2009, 15:32

Here is one of their five aims

5. To have helicopter training located in uninhabited areas or over the sea. Who, in their right minds, would locate afresh today such helicopter training in the highly-populated Thames Valley or other highly populated region?

Over the sea, are they mad? It also shows their ignorance to the neccessay training requirements.

g-mady

17th Apr 2009, 16:43

I forgot about this old chesnut! Mainly because I haven't been into Booker for a while down the "ho chi min trail!!!"

Let us all pray for a UK employment market boyed by "many times everyday" kind of movements!!! :ugh:

I see it appears ZANU -PF style tactics are fully deployed!!!

MADY

PS The forum appears to be Buzzing with activity!!! :}

SASless

17th Apr 2009, 17:01

I live in a part of the United States where we have a huge Army base, a huge Marine base, and a very active Coast Guard base....throw in the EMS aircraft, police aircraft, and privately owned aircraft......and I might see five helicopters or Ospreys in a week maximum.

So...I reckon I ought to get out and protest all this noise.

The conveyor system at the gypsum plant makes more noise all day long than the aircraft...jets and helicopters combined do at one time.

But...then I am not a Nimby.

ShyTorque

17th Apr 2009, 21:51

The conveyor system at the gypsum plant makes more noise all day long than the aircraft...jets and helicopters combined do at one time.

Those conveyor belts with aircraft stuck on them do make quite a noise, don't they? :E

mark-086

18th Apr 2009, 12:05

Check out the number of votes on their poll.

Helicopter Noise Coalition - How many helicopter noise incidents have you had in last 7 days... (http://www.helicopter-noise.org.uk/index.php?option=com_poll&task=results&id=15)

Total number of votes: 41201
Total number of votes shown: 12700

I think there might be a few votes missing :suspect: about 28501 of them!!

Must be Robert Mugabe that is running this site. :}

low-and-loud

22nd Jul 2009, 17:30

I have just stumbled across this thread after searching the Internet for activity relating to anti helicopter noise in Surrey.

As you can probably tell by my username I am one of those NIMBY's you refer to, I am actually a normal guy who rarely complains about things but have been driven to action by the level and regularity of noise in my area.

Of the many posts in this thread, the majority in my opinion are childish and selfish, there was one helpful one by AndyJB32 suggesting that maybe the complainers point of view is worth discussing over a beer.

I am not suggesting we have a beer :O however if any of you want to discuss the issues surrounding helicopter noise then please reply and I will discuss.

I am active on many formus relating to my specific areas of interest (motorbikes and model helicopters) and have seen posts on the bike forums where an anti has joined in and been shot down and not given the chance to voice their side, I hope that helicopter pilots are above that!

You never know, you may learn something that enables you to appease the complainers and help delay the inevitable legilation which can only adversely affect you.

On the other hand, this may be a dead post that has no chance of resurrection and my post count will forever stay at 1 :ugh:

Whirlygig

22nd Jul 2009, 17:45

OK low-and-loud, what are your "issues"? And what proposals do you suggest from which we may learn?

For examples, are these military helicopters, emergency helicopters, training helicopters, private helicopters? Is it the same helicopter or a number of different ones? Did you buy a house near a known airfield or helipad? How well can you judge height above ground?

Cheers

Whirls

low-and-loud

22nd Jul 2009, 18:03

Blimey Whirls, quick reply! I appreciate your time.

Right, I bought my house recently, intentionally away from airports and railway lines as I like a quiet life. Little road noise and no other noise to speak of, a bit of a quiet oasis in Surrey. Dont think I am some lucky rich guy, the only thing going for this house is the quiet, it has cost us dear in many ways, and now we dont even have the quiet we paid so much for.

The isse is mainly with commercials (I think, it can be very hard to tell, and trust me I have tried). I am getting quite good at telling them apart. I am getting up to 20 flights a day directly over my house, height no idea but it really does not look that high, I am sure it is around the 1000 feet mark (which is legal, I know, but legality is not the issue). I hear them from up to a minute away and when the go over, my god it is like a runway at heathrow sometimes.

No matter what I do I cannot complain to anyone, CAA not interested, council not interested, MP's pass the buck.

I dont see why they have to follow a "route" over my house, it is open air space so cant we have a bit of randomness, when they are in the distance (say half mile away) and pass the house, things are nowhere near as bad. I know they are probably following land features, but come on have a bit of thought for the people continually disturbed below.

I think 5 a day directly overhead is acceptable, but when it gets to 20 I get very angry and that is when I start investigating what direct action I can take. It is so frustrating as there is nobody to say to "come on guys, give us a break and make your noise somewhere else for a few hours" I am not a NIMBY, but I think that it is only fair the noise and disturbance is shared (and minimised eg unnecessary flights, but that is another issue....)

Over to you........

ShyTorque

22nd Jul 2009, 18:19

Of the many posts in this thread, the majority in my opinion are childish and selfish

You give this opinion on your first post here yet you expect sympathy and understanding of your views?

In my view, aircraft noise is part of modern life, just like any other type of noise. Although I live on the final approach path at one mile from a recreational and training airfield, the noise from vehicular traffic and in particular, from motorbikes with modified exhausts racing up the bypass and travelling through the village is far more intrusive and goes on far longer.

Islandcrazy

22nd Jul 2009, 18:26

L and L,

Most of the helo pilots and particularly the operators I know take noise abatement very seriously. You are new to these forums and I am sure that you will not be aquainted with the members, most of whom have a wicked and funny sense of humour. I am surprised that you do not seem to have picked up that even from this thread.

To have called most of the posters..."childish and selfish"...perhaps isnt the way to start off your first post if you want to be treated seriously.

I am sure your nice part of Surrey does suffer from noise pollution and operators will take any REASONABLE precautions to try to alleviate your issues. Having said that to place the helicopters in the same category as motorbikes and toy helicopters weakens your position somewhat.

As I am sure you are aware you have a few extremists amongst you which causes the "sense of humour" factor to come out amongst us. That said I am certainly willing to read to your issues as I am sure sensible dialogue between us would at least give you a sense of the professionalism that is absolutely present in the helicopter pilot community.

I am also sure that if you understood why some of these helicopters were airborne it would assist in balancing off your few minutes of noise against the needs of others. For instance some of the police forces will post why their air support helos were up at "4am" on their websites to help the public understand why they were woken up and it wont have been because they were making a run to their local chippie.

Expect a few wind-ups too....but thats what makes these forums fun!!

Oh....I live on a arrival and departure route of a major airport and do regularly hear traffic including during the night. I chose to live here...and whenever I hear a medium / large helicopter thumping over my home....I consider it the sound of safety and freedom! :}

IC

SASless

22nd Jul 2009, 18:40

L and L,

Perhaps you might take a moment...actually a few hours sometime....stand out in your garden (if you have one) and do an inventory of noise sources and time them.

I would bet the major source of noise (besides the Missus and Curtain Climbers) will be Lorries, Trains, Cars, and Sirens (the noisy kind....on car tops) and perhaps some airplanes....and finally way down at the bottom of the list....helicopters.

Get a meter and record the volume in Decibels and again I bet the helicopters are still way down on the list.

The problem with living in a very confined space such as the UK....one has to give up the peace and tranquility of an isolated location.

I thought I had found a lovely spot a few weeks ago here in the US....anchored my sailboat at the north end of the Alligator River in eastern North Carolina. Ah...yes....solitude in the absolute middle of no where....until the USMC showed up with F/A 18's and Harriers doing practice bombing runs.

You think helicopters are noisy!

At least I enjoyed the free airshow....especially after flashing the mirror at them....and getting a low pass and wave!

Miles Gustaph

22nd Jul 2009, 18:50

Here we go...

I love it, the noise coalition web-site wont let you join if it thinks your "one of them", yet the PPRuNe website, which is mature enough to let aircraft haters join gets rewarded by an accusation of being "childish and selfish" sorry it may be me but I think there's some irony there...

As for the "the inevitable legislation" I'm sorry but I'm really tired of hearing this drivel... there is plenty of legislation out there to deal with aircraft noise the fact that you didn't get the answer you wanted from your mean local council, or your lawyer, or that the American embassy turned down your request to sell you anti-aircraft artillery to deal with your problem or the fact that it actually turns out the 6000+ aircraft movements a year over your garden pagoda is actually 6. 2 of those were probably the police stopping the criminal fraternity from nicking your or your neighbors car, 2 were maybe the local air ambulance, almost certainly paid for by charitable donations (bad charities, bad!) saving someones life... no helicopters are not used for any medical emergency because they are expensive, so it was important, i.e Lifesaving, maybe a coastguard aircraft, again bad coastguard saving peoples lives, and one private aircraft...rich tosser ruining everyone's lives eh?

I'm sorry this is an old argument from people who are grumpy that they can't get their own way and stop people doing something they don't like. No there won't be any more legislation because your grumpy, get over it, become more tolerant of your fellow man & his machine.

If you truthfully need a crusade at least make it a worthwhile one, world peace, feeding the homeless, save the whatever, but get off your soap box and start to enjoy the world, and if that doesn't satisfy that inner need to bitch and complain just let us know where you live and I'm sure that there will be a PPRuNer who will be happy to drive a motorbike up and down your road doing the whole screemy engine thing to put the evils of noise in modern society in perspective... O I'm sorry your into motorbikes, I bet all your neighbors love you, bet you don't annoy any of them with your motorbike, but isn't that different, it's different because it's you making the noise.

ShyTorque

22nd Jul 2009, 19:08

I fly helicopters for a living. After thirty years of professional aviation (and living near an airfield, as already stated) I'm already aware of the aviation noise issue, as are all the other regular contributors here.

I also ride motorcycles for recreational purposes. If I were the one to "scream up and down" on my bike the loudest thing anyone would hear would be the "clunk" of the gearchange. I have foregone more performance and more fun for the sake of less noise.

I try to consider those on the ground below when I'm flying, in a similar way. I really cannot give much time or patience to those who try to tell us we will be banned, or legislated away just because they don't like what we do for a living.

dragman

22nd Jul 2009, 19:36

Jeez SASless, I've never seen you hold back so much!

Having lived under the flight path to a bombing range, and now under a departure/arrival path (handy for work), I'm keen to read some of the points to be raised by L and L - if indeed he hasn't given us the bird already.

Sure the bombing flight path was loud as F%$K, but i didn't let 10 seconds of thunder ruin my day.

It always makes me smile to see how companies such as the Department of Conservation (in NZ) give helicopter companies a hard time 24/7 for everything from noise to landing permits, but are the first to ask for a good deal when they need to drop rangers into the backcountry.

Non-PC Plod

22nd Jul 2009, 19:47

The problem here has got to be largely one of ignorance, simply because most people have absolutely no idea of what the helicopters are doing up there (hence the suggestions that all training be done over the sea etc) I remember seeing an article in the local paper by some git complaining about the police helicopter hovering over the golf course for 20 mins, and spoiling his Sunday afternoon round. His assumption was that we were on some jolly, just messing around and burning tax-payers cash. He would probably have been really ashamed to learn that we were actually looking for a missing child, (which we strangely enough prioritised above Mr X's tee shot off the third).
It made me nearly as angry as a HEMS job, when we were trying to land in a lay-by beside a remote road where there had been a serious accident, in order to casevac a critically injured person to hospital. Another git parked his car in said lay-by just as we were on finals. Despite skyshout requests for him to move his car as we urgently needed to land in the one suitable spot, he completely ignored us, put his backpack on and went for a walk. When we got a local bobby to catch up with him and ask him to move the car, he was most put out and fed up with us! If I hadnt had a job to do, I would probably have had to ask the bobbies to look the other way for a minute and physically explained the error of his ways. How can some people be so utterly, completely arrogant and self-centered? It is almost beyond my comprehension!

low-and-loud

22nd Jul 2009, 20:16

I posted the reply below a few hours ago, but it was put in quaratine for a moderator, because it was too long I think, anyway here it is.

Hopefully you will now go a little easier on me once you read my story and the specifics of my complaint.

I will respond to all the accusations and criticisms tomorrow.

I certainly didnt mean to offend anyone by refering to posts as childish, but bragging about altering a poll trying to help people who are seriously affected by this issue is not the behaviour I would expect from professionals.

--------

Blimey Whirls, quick reply! I appreciate your time.

Right, I bought my house recently, intentionally away from airports and railway lines as I like a quiet life. Little road noise and no other noise to speak of, a bit of a quiet oasis in Surrey. Dont think I am some lucky rich guy, the only thing going for this house is the quiet, it has cost us dear in many ways, and now we dont even have the quiet we paid so much for.

The isse is mainly with commercials (I think, it can be very hard to tell, and trust me I have tried). I am getting quite good at telling them apart. I am getting up to 20 flights a day directly over my house, height no idea but it really does not look that high, I am sure it is around the 1000 feet mark (which is legal, I know, but legality is not the issue). I hear them from up to a minute away and when the go over, my god it is like a runway at heathrow sometimes.

No matter what I do I cannot complain to anyone, CAA not interested, council not interested, MP's pass the buck.

I dont see why they have to follow a "route" over my house, it is open air space so cant we have a bit of randomness, when they are in the distance (say half mile away) and pass the house, things are nowhere near as bad. I know they are probably following land features, but come on have a bit of thought for the people continually disturbed below.

I think 5 a day directly overhead is acceptable, but when it gets to 20 I get very angry and that is when I start investigating what direct action I can take. It is so frustrating as there is nobody to say to "come on guys, give us a break and make your noise somewhere else for a few hours" I am not a NIMBY, but I think that it is only fair the noise and disturbance is shared (and minimised eg unnecessary flights, but that is another issue....)

Over to you........

ShyTorque

22nd Jul 2009, 20:30

How do you propose the flights be co-ordinated to avoid your house?

What is your definition of an "unnecessary flight" and who will decide who can, and who can't make any particular flight?

By the way, if you live outside of a congested area, as it seems you must do, you are fortunate that the aircraft are considerate enough to fly at 1,000 ft because any pilot could legally fly at 500 feet above your property.

Having said that, I generally fly at the maximum heights allowed, which is likely to be 2400 ft in your area. Most "commercials" do the same, subject to cloud height.

low-and-loud

22nd Jul 2009, 20:35

I dont have an answer for co-ordination as I dont understand traffic control, but do you think it is fair that I am under a flight path when I am nowhere near an airport or under a heli path in the LCZ (I am outisde the LCZ)

Unnecessary is a subjective thing, my opinion would be different to yours, but like I said that is not the issue here.

Needless to say missions of mercy are fine, a businessman wanting to save an hour on travel is not (in my opinion).

I am in congested area so they are supposed to be at 1000, but like I said it is not the height but the regularity of the noise that is the issue. I dont find it much comfort that I am "lucky" they are not flying at 500 feet!

ShyTorque

22nd Jul 2009, 20:45

Open airspace, i.e. outside controlled airspace means just that, pilots choose their own flightpath for a whole number of reasons.

If you think certain flights should not take place because of your personal bias or prejudice, you will get little support here.

I can only suggest that next time you move house, you might carry out more detailed research.

BTW, I'm sorry, but you are a NIMBY.

low-and-loud

22nd Jul 2009, 20:48

I am sure your nice part of Surrey does suffer from noise pollution and operators will take any REASONABLE precautions to try to alleviate your issues. Having said that to place the helicopters in the same category as motorbikes and toy helicopters weakens your position somewhat.

I never placed them in the same catagory, all I said was that I was into bikes and toy helicopters.

Have you ever tried to contact the operators responsible for a helicopter flying directly over your house? Without the registration number it is impossible, and getting the reg number is impossible if directly overhead, few helis have it on the bottom.

This is why it is so frustrating, nobody will listen to your complaint and at least say "we have listened but consider you needs less than ours" or something. All I get is buck passing......

low-and-loud

22nd Jul 2009, 20:54

If you think certain flights should not take place because of your personal bias or prejudice, you will get little support here.

I can only suggest that next time you move house, you might carry out more detailed research.Not personal prejudice, but personal effect, these flights are directly affecting me, I would be the same if there were some little twats shouting and screaming all day outside my house.

Before we moved here, we spent hours in the garden (it was derelict) and never got an incling of the noise we would be subjected to. Any suggestions as to how you can do research into this problem, as far as I can tell it is impossible .

I dont see how wanting my fair share of noise, and no more, makes me a NIMBY?

I take it that you think that all heli flights are acceptable, irrespective of the reaons, the noise pollution and the ridiculous MPG? You are welcome to your opinoin, but green issues will make it less and less acceptable.

low-and-loud

22nd Jul 2009, 21:03

Perhaps you might take a moment...actually a few hours sometime....stand out in your garden (if you have one) and do an inventory of noise sources and time them.

I would bet the major source of noise (besides the Missus and Curtain Climbers) will be Lorries, Trains, Cars, and Sirens (the noisy kind....on car tops) and perhaps some airplanes....and finally way down at the bottom of the list....helicopters.

I do, many hours, photographing helicopters and logging incidents (cue the p!ss taking, but if you lived here and knew the full situation you may actually understand)

Lorries, none. trains none, cars none, sirens a few, airplanes - regular but nowhere near a noisy as helicopters.

Sorry, but helicopters are by far the biggest noise nuisance here, and I am not just saying that, like I said we chose this house as it was quiet......

low-and-loud

22nd Jul 2009, 21:07

As for the "the inevitable legislation" I'm sorry but I'm really tired of hearing this drivel... there is plenty of legislation out there to deal with aircraft noise

You must be joking, there is very little legislation for aircraft noise, in fact it is excluded from the noise nuisance act as if it were included your lives would be a lot more difficult. Sure around airprots there are limits, but in open air space they can make as much noise as they like.

Whirlygig

22nd Jul 2009, 21:20

but bragging about altering a poll trying to help people who are seriously affected by this issue is not the behaviour I would expect from professionals.
And if I'm not mistaken, one of the founders of the Anti-Helicopter Coalition (the poll to which you refer) took to taking pot-shots at helicopters with a rifle. So altering a poll rather pales into insignificance in the "maturity" stakes. It also highlighted the rather Mugabe-esque manner in which the poll was being conducted.

bit of a quiet oasis in Surrey.
I am in congested area
...er, which is it? :confused: Having been born in Surrey, it's not a county I would equate with a peaceful, rural idyll. However, if you are in an isolated little hamlet, a pilot probably thinks it preferable to annoy just the few people in that small place (most of whom would be working in the City anyway :}) rather than those in a larger village. And if these are different aircraft with different pilots, it is not unfeasible that they could all come to the same conclusion.

Personal irritations are always sujective; I object to neighbours who think gardening by torchlight is an appropriate activity but hey, live and let live; they're probably not fans of the banjo. :} But there are probably very few places in the UK where you get total peace and quiet.

Your only real course of action is to have a word with the owners/operators. If you can't see the registration (which does indicate that height is sufficient), then you could try to identify the type - that would narrow it down. However, please bear in mind that there isn't a great deal of open airspace in Surrey. You wouldn't happen to live South West of Battersea would you?

The vast majority of operators and pilots ARE aware of noise and try to abate it; it's part of our training and code of conduct. If you are "affected" by it to the extent you claim, then maybe you need to consider your priorities in life; location or peace?

Cheers

Whirls

SASless

22nd Jul 2009, 21:21

20 events per day....at a minute per event....equals a rate of .01388888 of the day L and L is being bothered. Assume he is away at work for one third of the day and the flights stop after 11PM...that leaves him suffering about 0.0046266 of the day. That is ahh....errr....about 6.66 minutes a day.

For crapsakes....the Missus barks more than that?

Now where in the world does he live that there is an air corridor that has that kind of traffic to begin with? Under the London Heli-lanes.....or under the traffic pattern of a training field I wonder?

As to living there old bean....been there and done that and flew helicopters...some very noisy ones too....and never had a complaint about the noise. Lots of compliments however as it was a very special sound one of the old girls put out. You could hear it for miles....and miles and that was if I was "flying neighborly" as we try to do.

Tell us which little hamlet you live in and lets compare our knowledge of the area and see if there is an explantion for all the air traffic you report. Maybe one of us can help you find a solution to your problem.

That is your goal I assume....finding a way (if there is one) to cut down on the number of flights directly overhead your garden?

ShyTorque

22nd Jul 2009, 21:30

You must be joking, there is very little legislation for aircraft noise, in fact it is excluded from the noise nuisance act as if it were included your lives would be a lot more difficult. Sure around airprots there are limits, but in open air space they can make as much noise as they like.

Incorrect. Modern helicopters have to comply with noise limits as part of the airworthiness regulations and are issued with a noise certificate.

L&L states that he lives outside the LCZ, by which I presume is meant the London Heathrow Control zone, or London City zone.

low-and-loud

22nd Jul 2009, 21:33

The problem here has got to be largely one of ignorance, simply because most people have absolutely no idea of what the helicopters are doing up there

That is so true, if I could know what they were doing it would help, I may not agree with all the flights but like I said that is a diffecrent issue.

low-and-loud

22nd Jul 2009, 21:40

Your only real course of action is to have a word with the owners/operators. If you can't see the registration (which does indicate that height is sufficient), then you could try to identify the type - that would narrow it down. However, please bear in mind that there isn't a great deal of open airspace in Surrey. You wouldn't happen to live South West of Battersea would you?

If the reg is on the side, and the heli is directly overhead, you cannot see the reg irrespective of height. This is one of the annoyances.

I do live South West of Battersea, outside the London Control Zone (LCZ).

I am trying to have a word with the operators, but with the difficulties in getting the reg numbers, and the sheer number and speed of the helis it is proving difficult, time consuming and frustrating to make contact. I had thought of getting a radio and transmitting a polite plea to the pilots as they pass :ok:

low-and-loud

22nd Jul 2009, 21:44

Whirlygig

22nd Jul 2009, 21:55

I am not a serial moaner, I am a normal citizen who has found himself in a situation he, and many others, would find unacceptable and unbearable.
And that is possibly the crux of the matter - most people are more tolerant of others and the noise created by doing whatever they're doing. Tolerance thresholds vary between and what one person finds irritating, won't bother others.

I do live South West of Battersea, outside the London Control Zone (LCZ).Well, that's where they're going most likely.

You're not retired are you? :)

Cheers

Whirls

rotorboater

22nd Jul 2009, 22:13

Hi L&L, what are your co or-ordinates, I will make sure I dont pass overhead too often ;)

SASless

22nd Jul 2009, 22:15

What did you say the name of your small village is? Help us out here...it would help in considering your plight if we knew.

ShyTorque

22nd Jul 2009, 22:21

L&l, if you live outside the zone but SW of Battersea you must live approximately between the Epsom NDB and the Ockham VOR (radio beacons), which would explain why a lot of aircraft fly nearby. Aircraft use these beacons for navigation and they are also reporting points. From operating knowledge of the area, very few rotary winged aircraft fly as low as 1,000 ft around there. Standard operating altitude for helicopters joining the London zone is 2,000 feet along that stretch and this is monitored and controlled by ATC.

I'm sure that most pilots are flying quite legally, as you have suggested yourself, and in accordance with the "fly neighbourly" advice recommended by the BHAB. The airspace in that region hasn't changed for many, many years. Unfortunately it sounds like you bought your house in an inappropriate place with regard to aviation, in view of your dislikes and opinions.

To be quite frank, regrettably for yourself, there is little you can do, apart from accept it or move house again. However difficult that is to swallow.

I do know how you must feel. We bought a property having done the usual searches plus more besides. My family and I were faced with a similar quandary, for different reasons. A local planning issue caused us major stress for years and made our house unsaleable and at times almost untenable to live in, so we had no option but to stay and get over the issues causing our problems (in my opinion more severe than yours seem to be).

LH2

22nd Jul 2009, 23:55

Interesting thread. I used to live under a VRP for a moderately busy airport in southern Europe, and in all my years there, I do not recall a single person ever complaining about noise (mind you, this being southern Europe, if anything they would complain it was not loud enough :}).

low-and-loud

23rd Jul 2009, 04:23

And that is possibly the crux of the matter - most people are more tolerant of others and the noise created by doing whatever they're doing. Tolerance thresholds vary between and what one person finds irritating, won't bother others.

I am sure this comes into it, some would choose to live by a motorway, some would not. I obviously would not! The problem in this case is that the noise was "hidden" from me until after we had moved in.

You're not retired are you? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif

You must be joking, but you are sort of correct, I am unfortunately stuck in this house most the day, not through my own choice. The area does has a lot of retired people, will go some way to explaining why there is so much hatred towards heli noise around here.

I must state, this is hatred towards the noise not the heli per se, if heli's were quieter I doubt I would even be here, I cannot get rid of the noise even with all windows closed (which is difficult in this stupidly hot summer we are having!)

low-and-loud

23rd Jul 2009, 04:32

What did you say the name of your small village is? Help us out here...it would help in considering your plight if we knew.
Hi L&L, what are your co or-ordinates, I will make sure I dont pass overhead too often
I wish I had the confidence in the industry to tell you, but I cannot help thinking that there are some on this board who would delight in making my life more miserable because I dare to speak out against what you obviously enjoy doing.

Sadly my experience of the industry so far has been bad, nothing but buck passing and denial, You may say this is because I have not got what I wanted. I have asked every person I have had contact with about this whether they would find it personally acceptable (MP's, CAA, enviro health, various heli ports, 2 operators). They have all declined to comment, what does that say?

low-and-loud

23rd Jul 2009, 04:39

To be quite frank, regrettably for yourself, there is little you can do, apart from accept it or move house again. However difficult that is to swallow.

I do know how you must feel. We bought a property having done the usual searches plus more besides. My family and I were faced with a similar quandary, for different reasons. A local planning issue caused us major stress for years and made our house unsaleable and at times almost untenable to live in, so we had no option but to stay and get over the issues causing our problems (in my opinion more severe than yours seem to be).

Sadly selling the house is not an option, and belive me I would take it f it was. The house has some terrible legal issues which mean that I am here until the day I die or go bankrupt, at this rate I am not sure which will come first. Not my choice but the hand life decided to deal me.

So adding to the stress of a terrible financial and legal position is the unforseen noise issue, which my wife and I did everything reasonable before we moved in to avoid.

Maybe some of you have a little more understanding of my position, even if you dont agree with it. Which was the whole point of posting here.

Senior Pilot

23rd Jul 2009, 05:09

low-and-loud,

You will help yourself enormously on this Forum if you can wean away from a distrustful attitude. We welcome the fact that you have come here for assistance, but you are still replying with this sort of statement

I wish I had the confidence in the industry to tell you, but I cannot help thinking that there are some on this board who would delight in making my life more miserable because I dare to speak out against what you obviously enjoy doing.

ShyTorque has identified fairly well the area that you come from, and has given a good summary of what may be the problem. It is obviously up to you to accept the advice or not, but a better indication of the general area will do you no harm. It's not as if you are being asked to identify your house address, just the village would help!

No one here would even bother to come near your place out of spite, but may well be able to help by avoiding it if you are a bit more forthcoming. Since you have logged and photographed helicopters overflying, are you able to identify them as civil or military? Do they follow a set route, eg flying to and from a particular direction? This would help lend substance to ShyTorque's theory that they are flying via a navigation beacon and/or a reporting point: or even that you are at that reporting point :eek:

Trust is a two way street, and we can't do much unless you trust us to help you. It will be to everyone's advantage to do so :ok:

Whirlygig

23rd Jul 2009, 05:23

I wish I had the confidence in the industry to tell you,but I cannot help thinking that there are some on this board who would delight in making my life more miserable because I dare to speak out against what you obviously enjoy doing.
Gee thanks. You really believe that pilots have got nothing better to do than actually find your house and fly over it to annoy you? Oh please. You want advice but it cannot be given unless we know your location. As for "dare" to speak, I hope that is just a poor choice of words :}.

Yes, we enjoy flying but the very vast majority of pilots here are not hobby pilots but are doing it for a living; a job. Most were in the military at some time or another and now earn a crust doing the only thing they were trained to do.

No matter, it sounds like ShyT is right and you live by said radio beacons.

You may say this is because I have not got what I wanted. What is it you do want? Unfortunately you have bought a house which you cannot sell and from which you can't escape that is on a heliroute/VRP for Battersea. You can't identify the helicopters. You won't disclose your location. What do you now expect anyone here to say?

I have asked ever person I have had contact with about this whether they would find it personally acceptable (MP's, CAA, enviro health, various heli ports, 2 operators). They have all declined to comment, what does that say?
It says that they are (apart from your MP) working in an official capacity and it's not their place to comment on what they would personally find acceptable or not.

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change
To change the things I can
And the wisdom to know the difference

If you cannot change your situation, then letting what is a transient noise affect you so much, will affect your health. It IS a transient noise, it doesn't last long but the more YOU let it affect you, the more you will suffer. The human brain can quite easily block out sounds that it doesn't want to hear but you need to allow your brain to ignore the sound. I suspect that your difficulties with personal finances is manifesting itself in this helicopter hatred and that is where you have decided to channel your frustrations and anger. Pop-psych, I know but I thin you are going to have to find a way of dealing with your current lot rather than trying to fight it.

Cheers

Whirls

low-and-loud

23rd Jul 2009, 07:57

You will help yourself enormously on this Forum if you can wean away from a distrustful attitude

An attitude that has has been obtained by trying to get some answers/action via official routes, I am here because I realise that pilots are normal humans like me and hopefully have a more human attitude than the system which does not care.......

Since you have logged and photographed helicopters overflying, are you able to identify them as civil or military? Do they follow a set route, eg flying to and from a particular direction? This would help lend substance to ShyTorque's theory that they are flying via a navigation beacon and/or a reporting point: or even that you are at that reporting point http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif

Mostly civil I think, I am going to post some photos later to see if some of you guys can help me with ID so I can contact operator direct (I know how to get contact details from reg no, my problem is getting the reg no as already stated).

I was already certain that I was on some kind of route, probably between 2 beacons (or on one). They mainly fly east/west over me, rarely north/south. I suspect they are travelling from M25 to H7 which gives you all a pretty good idea where I live.

low-and-loud

23rd Jul 2009, 08:03

Gee thanks. You really believe that pilots have got nothing better to do than actually find your house and fly over it to annoy you?

No, I dont really belive that they will, but once you know where I am, if some anti anti decides to annoy me there is NOTHING I can do about it, I am just being cautious because of the possible knock ons.......

What is it you do want? Unfortunately you have bought a house which you cannot sell and from which you can't escape that is on a heliroute/VRP for Battersea. You can't identify the helicopters. You won't disclose your location. What do you now expect anyone here to say?

You have summed it up very well. Unfortunate is a word I would use, maybe tragic (the whole situation, not just the heli's which are the final straw....) You pretty much know my location now (M25 to H7 - Ashtead/Epsom)

low-and-loud

23rd Jul 2009, 08:17

If you cannot change your situation, then letting what is a transient noise affect you so much, will affect your health. It IS a transient noise, it doesn't last long but the more YOU let it affect you, the more you will suffer.

"Letting" is too much of a simplification. It is impossible to block it out. The only thing that works is loud music which is not how I want to live my life. Transient in the technical sense, and yes it does not last for long but it is so loud, so random and so frequent at times. Some helis are a lot worse than others and hopefully if I post pics of the bad ones we can make some progress.

It has already negatively affected my health, I am currently undergoing couselling for it and the financial/legal issues. I fully understand that the heli problem is made worse by my personal situation but we are all human and react to the pressures of life. The worse the pressure the worse the reaction usually.

I think I have managed to get you all to understand what it is like to be overflown like this, and please dont forget that I am not the only person in this area who feels like this, there are hundreds of us and the numbers are rising.

I also get that this is your job, and you need the money like all of us, but at what cost to others? I am not criticising your choice of job but you must realise that what you do sometimes has negative effects on others (as well as many good things, especially air ambulance etc....) Which is where the discussion of the purpose of the flights needs to come in, not something I really want to get into.

I do appreciate the time you have all taken to criticise and support me and I hope that your opinion of the anti has not been made worse, we are not all nutters who take pot shots although sometimes I have felt it is my only option :-)

Can you tell me exactly where the beacons are in my area?

ShyTorque

23rd Jul 2009, 08:21

So adding to the stress of a terrible financial and legal position is the unforseen noise issue, which my wife and I did everything reasonable before we moved in to avoid.
So you already had an objection to helicopter noise, above other noises. Or did you not? If so, what steps, i.e. "everything reasonable" did you take to avoid the noise problem? Or do you mean "did everything reasonable before we moved in to avoid" your financial and legal position?

I ask because you say this ongoing noise occurs every day and yet you also said that you spent many hours at the house before buying it. If so, the noise must have been apparent at the time and it must therefore have been obvious to you. The two statements just don't add up.

I sympathise with your situation to some extent; I would far rather you could enjoy your house without the noise which upsets you so much. However, you appear to want everyone else to magically change their very long standing behaviour and method of earning their living to suit your recent issues (you said you have recently bought the house).

Presumably you enjoy the use of local roads and motorways, which have been there for years. How would you feel if someone who recently moved in right next to one of those roads or motorways contacted you, called you names and then tried to persuade you not to drive past their house because they didn't like the noise from your car or motorcycle? It's precisely the same sort of thing.

Again, if you would confirm the area where you live those of us here could at least try to avoid it, if at all possible. If you don't, how can you expect anyone to do anything? Or do you really expect us to tell our customers that we can't fly them because their business trip isn't seen worthwhile or necessary by some bloke who's just moved into a house near Epsom?

What about your trip to work - is that worthwhile or necessary? What if an objector to your commuter or pleasure vehicle, be it car or motorcycle told you that if you're not driving a fire engine or ambulance, to stay off the roads? Why don't you go by bicycle or horse? What about the poisonous methanol fumes and the noise from your radio controlled helicopter - are they really necessary?

low-and-loud

23rd Jul 2009, 08:27

manifesting itself in this helicopter hatred

Hatred is a bit strong, frustration at the system is probably closer to the mark. If the system forced the heli's to alternate their routes on different days of the week or something then that would be acceptable in my book, but it doesnt, all the system does is deny there is a problem which there quite clearly is, proved by the many "moaning minnies" in this area. When you realise that if you were complaining about another less noisy noise something would be done but as it aviation you just have to live with it. Very frustrating.....

I always used to enjoy seeing heli's as they are pretty interesting machines (hence my hobby of model heli's - quiet electric, not noisy petrol!) but when you are continuously subjected to the noise the interest wears thin pretty quickly.

low-and-loud

23rd Jul 2009, 08:36

Blimey Shy, you really are anti anti :)

So you already had an objection to helicopter noise, above other noises. Or did you not? If so, what steps, i.e. "everything reasonable" did you take to avoid the noise problem? Or do you mean "did everything reasonable before we moved in to avoid" your financial and legal position?

I ask because you say this ongoing noise occurs every day and yet you also said that you spent many hours at the house before buying it. If so, the noise must have been apparent at the time and it must therefore have been obvious to you. The two statements just don't add up.

No existing objection to heli noise, it had never entered my conciousness. Objection to noise in general (trains, roads) so we chose this house as it does not have either. I was not refering to everything reasonable re financial/legal although obviously we did all we could but that was not enough, the solicitor is water tight so we cannot even sue them. We did everything reasonable re noise - yes we sat in the garden for an hour or so on many days and commented on how quiet it was. I am not saying no heli's went over but obviously we did not come on a bad day. We even came here at midnight a couple of weekends to see if the nearby alleyway casued drunken noise, it does not.

The heli noise in not terrible everyday, sometimes we only get 5 or so, a bad day is 20 ish. According to locals who have been here longer than me it has got worse (in their opinions) over the last couple of years.

low-and-loud

23rd Jul 2009, 08:41

I sympathise with your situation to some extent; I would far rather you could enjoy your house without the noise which upsets you so much. However, you appear to want everyone else to magically change their very long standing behaviour and method of earning their living to suit your recent issues (you said you have recently bought the house).

That is not what I want, what I want is fairness (if I lived 2 miles away I would probably have far fewer overhead) and the government to stop denying there is a problem and set up some decent form of monitoring to see exactly how many people are affected and what can be done We all have to live in this world and give and take works both ways, so far I have had nothing positive from the heli industry (apart from you guys of course!)

low-and-loud

23rd Jul 2009, 08:45

Presumably you enjoy the use of local roads and motorways, which have been there for years. How would you feel if someone who recently moved in right next to one of those roads or motorways contacted you, called you names and then tried to persuade you not to drive past their house because they didn't like the noise from your car or motorcycle? It's precisely the same sort of thing.

It is not the same at all for one simple reason, the knowledge before moving in.

If I moved near a race track I would not dream of moaning about the noise, same re airport or road. It is quite clearly ridiculous. But there was no prior indication when I moved here so what am I supposed to do?

Obviously Epsom/Ashtead council cannot state "this is a lovely place to live but we do have a problem with heli noise" so how is somebody like me supposed to know of the problem prior to moving? The noise maps do not show the full picture.......

low-and-loud

23rd Jul 2009, 08:52

Again, if you would confirm the area where you live those of us here could at least try to avoid it, if at all possible. If you don't, how can you expect anyone to do anything? Or do you really expect us to tell our customers that we can't fly them because their business trip isn't seen worthwhile or necessary by some bloke who's just moved into a house near Epsom?Epsom/Ashtead. I never asked or expected you to tell your customers anything.

What about your trip to work - is that worthwhile or necessary? What if an objector to your commuter or pleasure vehicle, be it car or motorcycle told you that if you're not driving a fire engine or ambulance, to stay off the roads? Why don't you go by bicycle or horse? What about the poisonous methanol fumes and the noise from your radio controlled helicopter - are they really necessary?I have been in a similar position to you guys and lost, so I know what it is like to be hounded away from the hobby you enjoy (I know you are not all hobbyists but you get my point). My model heli is electric as I think that petrol ones are too noisy to fly around here - and no that is not a dig, but a simple fact.

You cannot really compare commuting by "normal" vehicle to commuting by heli, if I need to explain why then there really is no hope........

Ikoyian

23rd Jul 2009, 09:03

L&L,

I really hate to say this but would you buy a second hand car (or motorcycle:)) without first hearing the engine.... Why would you buy a house under a heli route if this affects you? Did you not go along to the house prior to purchase to see what the environment was like, or soak up the local surroundings before committing?:ugh: A home is a huge investment, especially in these times of uncertain equity where a quick resale is difficult ,did you not see the tyre marks on the drive left by the previous owners:} I guess you have just learned one of lifes lessons.

You can not now expect an industry to move over because you err'ed. You now need to buy some ear muffs, we can recommend some good types here on the forum.

PS, I am looking for a nice cheap house down there.... I don't suppose, erm 10% of market value would....?

low-and-loud

23rd Jul 2009, 09:16

Did you not go along to the house prior to purchase to see what the environment was like, or soak up the local surroundings before committing?If you read my previous posts you would see that I had done everything reasonable (and beyond) to check this out.

Why would you buy a house under a heli route if this affects you?

This is not an official route, it is open air space that happens to form a well trodden path. No maps show it up as an area of concern. So short of being a heli pilot I dont know how I could ever have know prior to moving in?

You now need to buy some ear muffs, we can recommend some good types here on the forum.I have tried ear plugs, but the low freq thud goes right through you sometimes (on certain helis, there is a big difference between them)

PS, I am looking for a nice cheap house down there.... I don't suppose, erm 10% of market value would....?
Yes I would, I am being deadly serious and would bite your arm off, but I suspect your solicitor would not allow you to buy it, hence I am stuck here.........

ShyTorque

23rd Jul 2009, 09:44

You cannot really compare commuting by "normal" vehicle to commuting by heli, if I need to explain why then there really is no hope........

I'm not "anti anti", merely matter of fact. Helicopters are now quite a normal way to travel for some; especially in your area, you don't need to explain anything in that respect.

We all also know that helicopter noise can be intrusive; I certainly know that, after earning my living flying them and living near them for thirty years. If they and other aircraft were quieter, many of us would be happier, including me. I actually live under three "flight paths", one used by light aircraft at less than five hundred feet, one used by airliners operating in and out of a regional airport and the other used by transit traffic, mainly helicopters being vectored at similar heights to the ones you experience, to avoid the airliners.

If I were of the same mind as you, in a different financial climate I could try putting my home back on the market, albeit at a large financial disadvantage because the planning issue affecting me has come to fruition and has badly affected my property (devalued it by 30% according to the surveyor). The sale of it fell though in the past because of the then impending planning issue.

I'm not sure what you do actually want us to do about your problem. We are constrained where we fly, by the law and by other factors and are only going about our legal business. Aviation is already one of the most regulated industries. You should realise that we as individuals on this website cannot do what you want with respect to monitoring helicopter movements, any more than could (or should) a driver monitor motorway or other road movements to appease a complainer.

Edit: You are perhaps aware that other helicopter routes are available into the LHR control zone. There is another route inside the zone, (H3, you perhaps now have an aviation chart because you already know about H7). Normally many helicopters route north of you along there. However, for aircraft separation reasons that route cannot be used if Heathrow is using their easterly runways and they will do this if the wind direction so favours. In these cases, aircraft will have to go along the south sideof the zone and so you will hear more of them. I'm very surprised you make a complaint here if you only hear 5 aircraft in a day!

RedPortLeft

23rd Jul 2009, 09:53

As you can probably tell by my username I am one of those NIMBY's you refer to, I am actually a normal guy who rarely complains about things but have been driven to action by the level and regularity of noise in my area.

I am active on many formus relating to my specific areas of interest (motorbikes and model helicopters) and have seen posts on the bike forums where an anti has joined in and been shot down and not given the chance to voice their side

Have I got this right ?

Someone bashing away at a motorbike then revving it for 10 minutes followed by leaving it idling for 30 minutes then charging up and down the street on a Sunday morning is fine.

Up to 20 helicopters passing overhead (how long does that take?) during the day is unacceptable.

:confused:

From my experience of living near an Army barracks, the associated Lynx/Puma/Chinook helicopter movements at not that much above rooftop height are nothing compared to the local motorbike population. None of those were mentioned in the estate agents brochure. Visitors always comment how quiet it is ! Nowhere is ever going to be perfect and in my case the plus points outweigh the negative so I get over it. Turning into Victor Meldrew is a route to an early grave. Are helicopters the real problem here or just an easy target ? I realise this is probably no help whatsoever, just a different perspective. I'm not sure what else you're expecting to get out of this forum ?

low-and-loud

23rd Jul 2009, 10:01

If they and other aircraft were quieter, many of us would be happier, including me.

And me! The noise is the issue and as technology cannot make it low enough yet, some other mediation needs to be entered into.

If I were of the same mind as you, in a different financial climate I could try putting my home back on the market, albeit at a large financial disadvantage because the planning issue affecting me has come to fruition and has badly affected my property (devalued it by 30% according to the surveyor). The sale of it fell though in the past because of the then impending planning issue.

Sounds like you are in a similar situation to me, and I feel for you, but I think mine is worse as it appears our house is almost unsellable at ANY price. It is terribly complicated but needless to say the last year of my life have been spent trying to sort it out and failing.

Miles Gustaph

23rd Jul 2009, 10:20

So there we have it, there's no hope for any of us in the helicopter industry because "You cannot really compare commuting by "normal" vehicle to commuting by heli," and because we're childish and selfish we need it explained to us which apparently means "if I need to explain why then there really is no hope........"

Or is it more accurate to say you’re focusing all your frustrations of not being able to work, having a house with dodgy legal providence and generally being unhappy on the helicopter industry.

I'm sorry you are in this situation, I am, I appreciate you wanted to live in a lovely quiet corner of our green and pleasant land, that you have spent many hours turning your garden from a bomb-site to a nice place to live but it isn't our fault your unhappy!

If you genuinely mean to tell us that ear plugs, when indoors don't block out the horrendous thud of helicopter blades then you either have hyper sensitive hearing or you’re focusing all of your anger and frustrations into making the noise be there so you can be angry at someone or anything.

Your attitude is borderline obsessive and the problem is that your perspective is disproportionate to the problem. Your first post mentioned the inevitable legislation to come… well you know if enough miserably unhappy people such as yourself manage to focus your misplaced anger towards the industry then we will have to stop policing your neighborhoods, stop airlifting you or your friends & family to hospital and we can all be sent to the offshore industry.

I’m sorry you’re unhappy but obsessing over helicopters is a fine line to malicious persecution and boy it sounds to me line you’re very close to it. I suggest that you get some counseling and sort the rest of your life issues out before you engage in a crusade against the helicopter industry.

low-and-loud

23rd Jul 2009, 10:27

I'm not sure what you do actually want us to do about your problem. We are constrained where we fly, by the law and by other factors and are only going about our legal business. Aviation is already one of the most regulated industries. You should realise that we as individuals on this website cannot do what you want with respect to monitoring helicopter movements, any more than could (or should) a driver monitor motorway or other road movements to appease a complainer.
I never expected you to do anything, I had no idea what the outcome of this post would be when I started it. I wanted to understand exactly why they flew directly overhead and what the pilots view was. Obviously all this is with a view to enable me to take steps to moderate the noise somewhat.

You need to understand that heli's flying overhead are different to cars or motorbikes screaming past as they are rarer and impossible to communicate with (for example you could give the finger to an idiot on a bike, but a bit pointless at a heli as I have learned). It is also almost impossible to get any authority to do anything when you believe a law MUST be being broken.

I know that in this case it is unlikely any laws are being broken, and you can rightly defend yourselves in this knowledge, but the MP's said similar about the expenses "we broke no rules". I am not comparing you in any way to them, merely pointing out that the rules/laws are not in the interests of everyone (maybe the majority, maybe the minority, impossible to tell without stats)

I know you are already heavily regulated, and also probably follow them very well, but you have to see that aviation does have exceptions from rules which usually apply to all other forms of industry. I am intelligent enough to know why this is (avaition would collapse if they had to comply) with the obvious loss of many good things that aviation brings.

I suppose putting a human face (if that is possible on a forum?) to the noisy and pretty menacing machines with blacked out windows and impossible to read registrations has helped, what has really helped is the offer to avoid area if I am brave enough to post where it is. Also I hope that I would be able to post a pic of the worst offender when I get one, to see if I can get an ID so I can contact the owner and plead my case.

Also I hope that you are a little more understanding of the issues you can cause and the sometimes complex reasons as to why reactions against you can be so strong. A persons reaction is not always unique to them or their fault, many could react the same way in the same situation.

I dont think it is unreasonable to expect necessary noise to be spread around fairly where possible, and for the law to support such action. In this case the laws are at fault, not the pilots who cause the noise and I apologise for any offence I may have caused with the "childish" comment (although I still believe that altering a poll to reflect your views is not professional in any way)

Different sides of the fence, I just hope that you never find yourselves my side :ok:

low-and-loud

23rd Jul 2009, 10:46

Thanks Miles for your helpful, understanding and intelligent reply.

If all heli pilots have your attitude then there really is no hope for the industry, but I suspect the majority are a little more understanding.

Just like you cannot compare normal commuting with heli commuting, you cannot compare heli commuting with heli rescues.

I dont want to flame and have tried not to offend anyone, but being called obsessive because I dare to enter into conversation about the issue is pretty offensive. None of you had to reply.

estepo

23rd Jul 2009, 10:48

An articulately written, and well balanced viewpoint low-and-loud.

Albeit from the other side of the fence.......;):D

Miles Gustaph

23rd Jul 2009, 10:49

"I don’t think it is unreasonable to expect necessary noise to be spread around fairly where possible, and for the law to support such action. In this case the laws are at fault"

Again with the blame culture, not that you bought a dodgy house, that you didn’t do your homework as too the area…

As for your statement above, do you seriously stand by that? The law is at fault because you’re obsessing over helicopters… for goodness sake.

As for your comment “but you have to see that aviation does have exceptions from rules which usually apply to all other forms of industry” …what are you talking about, seriously what the hell are you talking about, I cannot see how our heavily regulated industry gets exceptions that would affect your obsessive compulsive attitude.

airborne_artist

23rd Jul 2009, 10:59

You need to understand that heli's flying overhead are different to cars or motorbikes screaming past as they are rarer and impossible to communicate with (for example you could give the finger to an idiot on a bike, but a bit pointless at a heli as I have learned).

And since when has this made any difference to their behaviour? My guess is that after such a response the next time they'd give it even more throttle, not less.

It's pointless to make a gesture at the pilot, even if they can see you, as they probably are not in a position to avoid your location. They are either taking the shortest (and thus quickest/cheapest route, burning min fuel, causing least noise overall) or they are taking the route they have been told to take by a controller, which is not negotiable.

As far as I can see the only helicopters that you can reasonably take issue with are those on a random sight-seeing trip, who may (if regulations allow) be able to do their random sight-seeing somewhere else. I doubt there are any of these, of course.

The rest you are stuck with, I'm afraid.

FloaterNorthWest

23rd Jul 2009, 11:07

L & L,

A lot of helicopters leaving Battersea track due south (unoffical route) until clear of the Heathrow zone and then turn for either Blackbushe, Fairoaks, Farnborough etc. And then do the reverse to go to Battersea. Me included but only one or twice a month. It will usually be the larger types which even at 1000 or 2000ft are bloody noisy.

I use a waypoint 10nms due south of Battersea as a turning point and then route to Ockham. Heathrow usually spit us out at 1000ft AMSL (above mean sea level) and then generally we climb to 2400ft AMSL to remain below the London Control Area.

Without a village name or general location we can't do anything to avoid you.

If you supply a location and it is on my route I will happily change the waypoint to avoid you, I am sure other responsible operators will do the same.

Sadly, alot of these threads turn into slanging matches. It would have probably been better to start the post asking us to avoid an area rather than complaining about helicopter noise as this usually wakes the trolls from their slumber. :}

FNW

Senior Pilot

23rd Jul 2009, 11:08

I suppose putting a human face (if that is possible on a forum?) to the noisy and pretty menacing machines with blacked out windows and impossible to read registrations has helped, what has really helped is the offer to avoid area if I am brave enough to post where it is. Also I hope that I would be able to post a pic of the worst offender when I get one, to see if I can get an ID so I can contact the owner and plead my case.

L&L,

Please understand that while we are willing to debate and assist where possible, Rotorheads is not a forum where we will divulge the identity of an aircraft, operator or pilot going about their lawful business.

If the owner, operator or pilot voluntarily choose to be recognised, that is their choice. But please do not expect any third party "outing' on this or any other thread on PPRuNe :=

I'd also try not to be quite so emotive in your descriptions, regardless of how you perceive a helicopter. "Pretty menacing machines with blacked out windows and impossible to read registrations" when you have accepted that they are too high to read a rego doesn't help your case. Some Rotorheads are willingly trying to help you here, and it will go a long way to recognise that. Those who get wound up in their replies are best ignored, rather than turn this into a pointless slanging match (which won't happen: trust me ;) ).

low-and-loud

23rd Jul 2009, 11:19

As for your comment “but you have to see that aviation does have exceptions from rules which usually apply to all other forms of industry” …what are you talking about, seriously what the hell are you talking about, I cannot see how our heavily regulated industry gets exceptions that would affect your obsessive compulsive attitude.

They get excluded from noise nuisance laws (or at least given exemptions). For example I can complain to the council about a noisy model helicopter and action would be taken, but I cannot do the same for a real helicopter. I do not want to get ijnto the rights and wrongs of this but merely point it out as fact.

Another example. I can fly and land a real helicopter in my garden for 28 days a year, but I can only race cars around it for 14 days. Again not an invitation for a discussion on the rights and wrongs.

As I understand it, I may be wrong, avaition gets taxed less on fuel than any other vehicular use. This is the only way avaiation can exist at the levels it does.

You obviously have issues with people challenging your industry and feel it appropriate to accuse them of mental illness, is that the result of some childhood trauma?

Oh, and by the way, I didnt realise that discussing an issue on a forum could be seen as "malicious persecution". Maybe your "issues" have clouded your view of reality?

I have never "persecuted" anybody in the helicopter industry, "maliciously" or otherwise. I may have done some serious reaserch into the subject and had some long detailed discussions with various stakeholders but none of that is anywhere near illegal or wrong as far as I know.

airborne_artist

23rd Jul 2009, 11:26

As I understand it, I may be wrong, avaition gets taxed less on fuel than any other vehicular use. This is the only way avaiation can exist at the levels it does.Fuel as a percentage of total cost of operation of a helicopter is not insignificant, but it's not as big as many other of the fixed and variable overheads. Most/all of those overheads attract taxation of a sort, as well, so the benefit to the Exchequer is pretty high.

low-and-loud

23rd Jul 2009, 11:33

Thanks Floater, for the info, the offer and the intelligent reply. It is good to hear somebody else admit that some heli's are "bloody noisy" even at legal height.

Senior - I understand why you cannot divuldge identity, that is the crux of the problem, people are told they can complain but that is not possible due to poor location of reg no. Catch 22 and very frustrating. But I do respect your position.

I do realise that some Rotorhead members are being helpful and I do really appreciate it. I also dont want this thread to be dragged down by a slanging match but I cannot ignore stupid personal swipes. I wont give credit to any others that may arise.

It is amazing what a typical spread of personalities exist here, that exists on other forums. Somehow I expected all pilots to be above your typical Internet forum member, but I suppose you are all human like the rest of us :ok:

kevin_mayes

23rd Jul 2009, 11:33

Another example. I can fly and land a real helicopter in my garden for 28 days a year, but I can only race cars around it for 14 days. Again not an invitation for a discussion on the rights and wrongs.

You can land a helicopter in your garden as much as you like, the 14 and 28 day rule applies only to land not within the house curtillage... However if you were to "race" helicopters around, that would be motor racing, so could only be done for 14 days, as would "paint ball games" which comes under war games?

Kevin.

low-and-loud

23rd Jul 2009, 11:37

However if you were to "race" helicopters around, that would be motor racing, so could only be done for 14 days

:)

A very whitty example of the discrepencies in the laws

kevin_mayes

23rd Jul 2009, 11:40

L & L

Tell me about it... there are some really, really odd laws out there.:bored:

Kev.

low-and-loud

23rd Jul 2009, 11:43

You can land a helicopter in your garden as much as you like, the 14 and 28 day rule applies only to land not within the house curtillage...

Dont you think that is crazy and unfair? Surely in a fair society this should not be allowed? I am not saying ban all helicopters, I am saying dont allow people to do things like this which could be hell for innocent neighbours. Helicopters should only fly from designated airfields, what is so wrong with that? They can be very noisy and some thought needs to be given to that when making laws.

When they make a quiet helicopter then you can allow them to do what they like......

airborne_artist

23rd Jul 2009, 11:53

Dont you think that is crazy and unfair? Surely in a fair society this should not be allowed? I am not saying ban all helicopters, I am saying dont allow people to do things like this which could be hell for innocent neighbours. Helicopters should only fly from designated airfields, what is so wrong with that? They can be very noisy and some thought needs to be given to that when making laws.

Part of the problem in this country is that we have too many laws, not too few. What is wrong with common sense, and a sense of acting in a responsible manner? The reality is that ownership of helicopters is pretty rare, and very few (if any) people are "blighted" by their neighbour operating a helicopter morning, noon and night from the garden next door. Can you name any cases?

What is a "designated"airfield, anyway. No such thing in law. There are licenced airfields and unlicenced airfields, both of which have planning permission to operate aircraft within the permission as granted.

kevin_mayes

23rd Jul 2009, 11:54

Hmm.
I suppose it comes down to the ammount of usage, my helicopter lives in the side garden here, while it's really noisey I only use it every three weeks or so, but contrast that to the chap who purchased my old house three doors away, he has a motor bike and uses that every evening (custom type) which is just as loud as the heli and overall runs for a longer time?

Then you have the chap who gets the strimmer out on a Sunday afternoon for three hours on a trot.

I think when they made the 28 day rule they lumped all forms of transport together, one could argue that landing the helicopter in a garden is just the same (transport wise) as driving a car up the drive - maybe this was correct, maybe not?

Don't forget that the helicopter was designed for just that, trips into confined areas, to base them all at airports would seem to be a waste, we would all have to fly around in fixed wing thing - which by the way aren't all that quiet either...

low-and-loud

23rd Jul 2009, 12:06

For those of you who are interested, I thought I would share my similar experience of NIMBY's that destroyed a sport I enjoyed, and you may take away some valuable lessons from it.

I used to trail ride, that is riding old roads that had not been tarmac'd on a dirt bike. Some of you would call it off roading or hooning about on a dirt bike. Usual mix of people. Some (the majority in my opinion and experience) had quiet bikes, rode sensibly and courteously and never broke any laws. Others (the minority in my opinion and experience) rode noisy illegal bikes like they were on a race track.

No matter what we (the sensible ones) did, the NIMBY's were constantly lobbying parliament for the law to be changed and us to be banned. Their main gripes were the noise of the illegal bikes (legal ones are pretty damn quiet) and the conduct of the idiot riders. Even though both the issues (noise and bad riding) were covered by exisitng laws and could be enforced if the Police had the will and time, parliament chose to pander to the strong lobbyists (including The Ramblers Association - very strong) and ban us from almost everywhere. We used to have access to 5% of all off road tracks (as did anyone with a road legal vehicle), and now we only have 1%. Almost destroyed the industry overnight.

My comparison with the helicopter industry is that whilst the helicopter industry has the support of very rich and influential customers with the obvious leverage that has in Parliament, and the obvious benefits of helicopters for Police and rescue. Do not underestimate the strength of negative feeling that can be generated, sometimes for incorrect or unfair reasons. As we used to think whenever we passed a house that happened to be on the lanes, "lets be as quiet as possible, preferably so they dont hear us, so that is one less complaint to stop us doing what we enjoy".

Obviously it is more difficult for you guys to pass unnoticed! But at least you dont have to worry about spotty bike thieves giving you a bad name :ok:

low-and-loud

23rd Jul 2009, 12:14

Part of the problem in this country is that we have too many laws, not too few. What is wrong with common sense, and a sense of acting in a responsible manner?

I agree, but common sense is not a quality everybody posseses. Although I suspect heli pilots would tend to have more than most. The law should be that it is fine to do it but if it becomes "unreasonble" (difficult to define I know) then it should be moderated, not banned.

I would love a heli next door to me, I find them fascinating. Not to go in, but from a mechanical point of view, I love all things fast and noisy. But if my neighbour decided to go to work in it everyday I would have issues as would most. It is all about balance and that is what is missing from this law.

I certainly cannot name any cases (apart from the one I read about on this forum that was in the Mail and Express), I didnt actually realise that many people kept helicopters in their garden!

topendtorque

23rd Jul 2009, 12:16

Sacre-bleu;
you mob do go on.

Reminds me of a story of a previous employee, now departed this pleasant planet.

At a bush horse event he was, just a few short years ago with his family.

He, had had a few the night before, woke up feathery, his wife woke up quite a bit more feathery.

She chipped, at some damm thing, he who was cooking brekky, threw the brekky over her.

She got up - made a speech - and left.

He was asked, by my mate, "Goddamm Stump what on earth didja do that for?"

Stump replies, 'Buggered if I know, won't change anything. She likes making speeches, I continually run royals.'
de-ja-vu.

L&L, you didn't listen to Shy Torque, I suggest you listen to SP this thread is on a short leash, I reckon.
cheers tet

ShyTorque

23rd Jul 2009, 12:20

The difference is that you rode bikes for sport. We're doing it for a living.

Many of us are bikers, too, btw. I also take part in Classic Trials. The last time I rode one of mine off a surfaced road, (legally, carefully, quite slowly and well away from habitation) we were accosted by a woman who was almost violent in her protest. We had stopped to let her go past. She insisted in taking our registration numbers and told me she was going to report me to the police for riding there. I pointed out my friend on his bike, on her other side. He merely said: "Why not tell me, then - I AM a policeman". She became even more agitated so we rode on. Never heard another thing.

As I write this, another light aircraft has flown over my house at less than 500 feet on it's way to the airfield. I won't be complaining.

kevin_mayes

23rd Jul 2009, 12:20

L & L
A long time ago (17 years to be exact) I looked after the noise and track keeping system at Heathrow, one of my tasks was to calibrate the equipment at the remote noise monitoring sites, while there a chap came up, full of lip complaining about the noise from the aircraft overflying his house. The conversation kind of went like this.

"These bloody things are runing my life, can't get any peace!"
So I asked him where he lived, right under the flight path as it happened next to the noise monitor.

Then I asked him did he go on hoilday this year, yes he said, he had two hoildays a year...

Then I asked him, Oh which airport did you fly from then?
"Heathrow" was the answer...

Tel you what L & L shoot me down, but why don't you book a trial lesson in a helicopter, you might find it quite fun? I know when I got hooked, suddenly helicopters flying overhead were a lot more interesting.

Kev.

SASless

23rd Jul 2009, 12:22

Either Low Level is a complete dork.....or is guilty of a very fine bit of pprune fishing!

In the first case....nothing will be gained by either side to this discussion and in the latter he should get accolades for a fine job!

low-and-loud

23rd Jul 2009, 12:27

he has a motor bike and uses that every evening (custom type) which is just as loud as the heli and overall runs for a longer time?

Then you have the chap who gets the strimmer out on a Sunday afternoon for three hours on a trot.

Ageed, but in both those cases you could get somebody independent (the council enviro health) to mediate. Also both cases have people who could reduce the noise (fit silencer or use electric strimmer). The heli use does not have the benefit of either of these points.

I think when they made the 28 day rule they lumped all forms of transport together, one could argue that landing the helicopter in a garden is just the same (transport wise) as driving a car up the drive - maybe this was correct, maybe not?

I dont think this is right. Simply because the enviro impact of a heli is so much greater than a car (hummers excepted!). How can you treat them the same? I dont mean be draconian on the heli, just use a bit of common sense when making the laws.

Don't forget that the helicopter was designed for just that, trips into confined areas, to base them all at airports would seem to be a waste, we would all have to fly around in fixed wing thing - which by the way aren't all that quiet either...

It would be a waste, but some of the personal use they are used for is a waste of other things in my opinion. Is flying always that necessary? I manage to survive quite well never using one. I am sure there are perfectly good reasons for some of the personal use, but not all. Fixed wings seem much quieter to me than helicopters, maybe it is the height, maybe the frequencies, but no doubt heli's are more intrusive and difficult to mask than fixed wing.

dragman

23rd Jul 2009, 12:33

L and L,

Just a thought, but you've been spending a lot of time over the last day or so on this forum. Is it conceivable that, whilst directing your concentration into posting here, rather than skyward at "offending" helicopters, the noise may have become less intrusive?

low-and-loud

23rd Jul 2009, 12:34

The difference is that you rode bikes for sport. We're doing it for a living.

Of course, but there were people who were in the trail riding industry for a living. The only people who won were the NIMBY's.

ShyTorque

23rd Jul 2009, 12:38

Right, must go - got a life to lead.

There goes another light aircraft - right overhead, probably about 400 feet.

low-and-loud

23rd Jul 2009, 12:44

Dragman, :)

There has been 2 today, quite a good day, I still heard them, but strangely they made me smile and now I am missing them!

But like I have said, it is not 2 or 5 that bother me, it is when it gets to 20 it gets too much. Really hard to ignore them when the windows are open or you are outside.

But, the next one I see will probably get a cheery wave rather than a manic hand gesture :ok: Unless it is the really deep sounding one.....

John R81

23rd Jul 2009, 13:37

L-a-L

Sorry - should have read through all 9 pages

TorqueOfTheDevil

23rd Jul 2009, 18:19

I wish I had the confidence in the industry to tell you, but I cannot help thinking that there are some on this board who would delight in making my life more miserable because I dare to speak out against what you obviously enjoy doing.

In fairness to L&L, I don't think I'd put my exact location on a forum like this if I were complaining about noise...Piss Off Biggles anyone?

On the subject of how worthwhile the flights are which pass over L&L's house (which his neighbours say is getting worse over the years), maybe the recession will have a beneficial effect (in terms of noise, because fewer people will splash out to go by air). Presumably, with the economy in tatters, every private helicopter flying must be doing something pretty worthwhile or carrying someone pretty important?

Whirlygig

23rd Jul 2009, 21:30

If 2-5 aircraft a day is norm and that is acceptable, then I would suggest that when you're getting 20 a day, this is because Heathrow has directed the traffic that way for reasons already explained. This indicates that, unless ATC directs otherwise, the pilots are taking a variety of routes.

I still maintain that the best way of dealing with the problem is one of mind over matter. For example, I used to have the screaming ab-dabs if I saw even a money spider. However, I realised that my fear of spiders was almost ruining my life so I took steps to deal with it. I still don't like spiders but I can look at photos of them, tolerate being in the same room as one and even, with my super spider catcher, catch one and put it outside.

I saw it as my problem and dealt with it.

Alternatively, as TotD suggests, you could get up on the roof :ok:

http://pissoffbiggles.com/piss_off_biggles_crop.jpg

Cheers

Whirls

TorqueOfTheDevil

23rd Jul 2009, 22:15

Whirls

Great pic - that colour scheme brings back memories! (on the Hawk as well as the barn!). I was going to post a different picture of the most-used turning point in North Wales but mine's not as good as yours!

TOTD

Pandalet

24th Jul 2009, 07:52

Aah, spider catchers. Mine's having a shower just now, but she'll be back shortly :ok:

Jackboot

24th Jul 2009, 14:32

I love the suggestion that helicopter training should be conducted over water. It would add a whole new dimension and complexity to hover/ hover taxy practice! Bigger barf bags to cope with air and sea sickness?!

These people are extremists.

I bet they are all fairly elderly. As you get older, minor irritations can become obsessions. I bet the person who runs this silly website has devoted his life to it and it will get him precisely nowhere.

'I remember Fred - he was that nutter who jumped up and down shaking his fist every time a helicopter flew over.'

I think I would like to be remembered for doing something useful.

Meals on Wheels and outpatient volunteers are always short of drivers. Much better than sitting at home all day with the window open behaving like a crusty old f@rt whener we fly over.

I have operated my machine for nearly 4 years in and out of my home. I have done over 600 hrs without a complaint. In fact, quite the opposite. I have raised lots of money for the Air Ambulance etc. by offering free raffle-prize rides.

Helicopters are noisy - we all need to consider our neighbours and offer them the occasional ride. It works a treat for me.

JB

nimby

24th Jul 2009, 15:21

Perhaps LoL should move somewhere more rural ... Ilchester?

Non-PC Plod

24th Jul 2009, 15:44

Ilchester's fine if you buy the house on a Sunday! I reckon somewhere near the church is about right for 09/27!

airborne_artist

24th Jul 2009, 15:57

Ilchester's fine if you buy the house on a Sunday!

A friend, a confirmed petrol-head, bought a house under the extended center-line of Benson's main. Moved in on a Friday, BBQ on Sat for his mates who had ehlped him move in. Half the RAF's fleet went overhead during the afternoon, with lots of noise, tail end of smoke from the Arrows etc. His Mrs was less amused, but then he found out it was Benson's families' day :ok:

Benet

24th Jul 2009, 18:58

There has been 2 today, quite a good day, I still heard them, but strangely they made me smile and now I am missing them!

But like I have said, it is not 2 or 5 that bother me, it is when it gets to 20 it gets too much. Really hard to ignore them when the windows are open or you are outside.

But, the next one I see will probably get a cheery wave rather than a manic hand gesture Unless it is the really deep sounding one.....

Signs of an improving attitude?

I get hacked off when a helicopter flies overhead, but only because I'm not up there flying it! Seriously, have a ride in a helicopter. If I wasn't stuck out in Abu Dhabi I'd be delighted to offer you a ride, preferably from your garden. It's an experience which melts the hardest attitude.

Most of the helicopters I fly are piston-engined and surprisingly quiet - I measure the effect I'm having by the reaction of farm animals, which I try not to scare. Horses in particular are easily startled and I do my best not to upset them when I land at the many farms and isolated houses I visit when I'm in Britain.

My little civilian helicopters are nothing compared to the thunderous noise (which I love, but others don't) of military helis. And city dwellers who dislike long periods of police aircraft overhead have a point - as do the police, who are usually doing something which demands a hover or a low orbit for the public good.

I can only implore you to have a trial lesson. Then you'll associate the sound of a heli overhead with a happy memory.

fluffy5

25th Jul 2009, 14:11

I have the answer. It is purely scientific, just not proven yet. As we know the helicopter produces high and low frequencies. Now if these unfortunate soul's are being diven mad by such divine aircraft like the helicopter, which is obviously causing a disturbance in the mind by the high or low frequencies.
We should not be upset with these people, who have a slight disability that they are being driven mad.
Maybe the goverment could offer free CAT scans to the poor people who could have this abnormality, and once found could offer some kind of head gear to wear. Maybe a bicycle helmet, I bet that thick padding would stop those nasty frequencies or even better yet maybe a motorcycle helmet.
Or if you can't afford to buy the head gear, the cheaper option could be a wet towel wrapped around ones head with two pencil's up one's nose, now that would probably work. :}
Now in all seriousness people complain about noise from airports, if they bought a property near an airport after the airport was built then why should you complain. If however you bought that property or built it before the airport came then you have a right to complain.
Most low level helicopters are air ambulance that are saving lives!
police helicopters which are chasing the bad guys, so they don't steal your car !
Civilian pilots should not be low level, unless taking off and landing, within the law.
Maybe I will offer this advice on there website, one wet towel and two pencils :E