Hi

Just wondering, is it legal to fly in control of an aircraft, PIC, and take photos with a camera at the same time as dangerous as it may be? Because we all know driving a car and talking on the phone is illegal, as well as doing anything else that could endanger the safety of the car and others, so is that the same for flying?

Cheers
Morbz

I don't believe it is specifically outlawed, but if a resulting lapse in concentration led to an incident, I'd imagine there would be some difficult questions asked. If a plane had autopilot, perfect vis etc... it would undoutedly be easier.

IMHO, I would like to think that anyone who has qualified as a PPL would have the common sense and professionalism to not attempt this!

I would like to think that 100% of your concentration was taken up with the flying of the aircraft....for the sake of those sharing the airspace!

Undoubtably true what your saying and I fully agree 100% should go into flying the plane and conducting a safe flight, but you see so many home videos and photos of people flying planes and their journeys, I was just wondering is that honestly a passenger doing the photographing, I doubt it very much... There should be a law in this, and it should perhaps be included in PPL Airlaw or Flight safety, admitadly it is common sense but it is something I've wondered myself whether its legal and its something I've been asked, can you take a picture etc.

I wouldn't disagree with the response by XXPLOD.

The response by tegwin strikes me as rather extreme. IMHO it depends where, when and in what circumstances.

Just a personal view, but I'd feel a little uneasy flying with a pilot who needed 100% concentration devoted to just flying the aircraft.
A high percentage of a PPL's concentration is likely to be needed just to fly the aircraft (the actual percentage depending upon experience/currency) but, in contrast and by way of example, a military pilot needs to operate an aircraft as well as fly it - which would not be possible if he/she needed to use 100% concentration just to fly it.

Would obviously defer to FL, and so I offer the following for info only

http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/cms_resources/dft_avsafety_pdf_501033.pdf

as a result of which, CAA response to safety recommendation 97-53 was

'RECOMMENDATION 97-53
It is recommended that the CAA should consider suitable regulations relating to the conduct of aerial photography of a commercial nature in order to eliminate the dual role of pilot and photographer.
Status – Fully Accepted – Closed
CAA Response
The Authority accepts this Recommendation. The Authority will make it a condition of any low flying permission relating to the conduct of aerial photography of a commercial nature that a second person is carried to undertake the aerial photography task.'

I took the above from

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP689.PDF

As I say, offered as no more than a contribution to any debate. The recommendation pertains solely to commercial work, but the handling, operation and airmanship aspects I would have thought were pertinent to private or commercial operations.

Yer I see your point, its quite an interesting discussion, but at the end of the day I think because there is no law governing whether cameras can be used by pilots as solid text, that like everything, it is down to the sensible decision of the PIC at the time of flying. I suppose what tegwin is suggesting is that 100% concentration actually is 100% devotion to flying as opposed to doing other things. I guess people do it all the time and people break many rules at their own cost and others, but to add to that theres no one close by to catch you out, you can only catch yourself out with making stupid errors.

So the answer to my question is no, there are no rules banning the PIC from taking a quick snap?

Just look back through the accident records to the accident involving a Jaguar and Cessna 152 at i think it was Carno? on the Welsh borders.
The Cessna pilot was know for doing aerial photography solo.
If he had extra eyes looking out, the accident may have been averted.
Think the CAA recommendation was that it was ok to aerial photo so long as adequate lookout, if need be a extra pair of eyes, was available.

I suggest you do a search and check out the details of that incident. As the Cessna was hit largely from behind how would a passenger have helped? We tend not to use the rear screen very much....

As someone who has been known to operate a camera (not in Contolled Airspace) while being the only soul on board, how is that materialy different to whizzing the whiz wheel or agonising over the chart? At least with a camera, one's looking out of the window!

'India-Mike
No reason whatsoever to defer to me. Apart from confirming that there's no specific prohibition in law, the rest of my post was simply as a PPL. There are many contributors to this forum who have far more hours/experience than me, and you may well be one of them.

As you say, the CAA response refers to commercial operations, but it does also refer specifically to low flying. I suspect most would agree that a pilot taking a picture when at low level is at least poor airmanship and, depending upon all the circumstances, might constitute endangering. In contrast, a quick snap at a safe height and in appropriate airspace may be neither.
I agree with morbz (in his latest post) that it's down to the sensible decision of the PIC at the time of flying - which obviously includes taking all circumstances into account in deciding whether it's safe.

That's all very well, FL - but as is usual in matters of aviation law on PPRuNe I really think we should wait for DFC to have his say.

Bit of a loaded and vague question IMHO

I've taken lots of photos as PIC over the years, and many of them were turning point photos whilst gliding - often in close proximity with other gliders. I've even taken photos and videos on landing, but not with a handheld camera

I take it you are talking about commercial-type photos at relatively low level. Not illegal and not necessarily dangerous.

It is perfectly OK to take photos as long as you are aware what is going on around you.

There is nothing legally that prevents you from taking a private photograph from an aircraft. The fact that you are PIC simply puts the onus on you to ensure the safety of the flight. many tasks within the aircraft can be more distracting than a quick snap of a nice view.

Normal flying should seldom take up 100% of the pilot's capacity since there is nothing then left to cope with an emergency or unusual situation.

Thus during periods of low activity and having carefully checked that it is safe to do so, you as the sole occupant of an aircraft on a private flight can take a photograph.

I would advise against spending too much time looking through a view finder, taking a series of photos or setting out solo for the sole purpose of taking photographs of man-made features on the ground from low level.

Most airline pilots I know carry a digital camera these days and when they see something worth snapping and it is safe to do so they will take a photo.

Regards,

DFC

Happy now.

Oui je suis! Thanks for the responses! Aviate, Navigate, Communicate, ( & then take a picture )... :ok: I guess, as it is the same for everything, an inflight decision remains in the hands of the PIC, and taking into account the current situation and making a sensible decision based upon it is the best way to go. Cheers for the advice! ;)

Morbz

Most airline pilots I know carry a digital camera these days and when they see something worth snapping and it is safe to do so they will take a photo.


The main factor is her bra size..... HTH :)

There is nothing inherently unsafe about taking a picture, nor is there anything inherently unsafe about flying an airplane...nor doing both at the same time. Whether one is pilot in command or not is a legal issue, and is entirely irrelevant. Would being the pilot flying, and being second in command make one iota of difference? Of course not. Being PIC has nothing to do with it at all.

I've taken many pictures while flying the airplane. Safely, too. Legally.

One even got published in my high school yearbook, way back.

The prior statements regarding legality in this thread concerned commercial flying, and concerned low level flights. Not really relevant to the question as posed in a private pilot forum.

I've taken pictures by hand at low level on many occasions; sometimes of objects on the ground, other times of aircraft with which I'm flying. Some of them didn't turn out particularly well as more attention was devoted to flying than picture taking...but at no time were those acts unsafe, or illegal.

You can certainly act carelessly or recklessly while taking a picture and flying...but the general question of whether the mere act of taking a picture while flying does not provide enough specifics to cite a particular circumstance. Simply piloting and shooting is not by it's own nature, unsafe, dangerous, or illegal.

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k286/avbug/10300006-1.jpg

A picture I took last year, in the middle east.

I can fly an aeroplane, take a photo and talk on the radio all at the same time. I cannot safely use a telephone whilst driving though......

I've taken a bunch of pics as PIC. Some in gliders, some in power. I'm never over-focused on the camera, but I'll take a few pictures in the hope that one will come out right. Taking pictures in VFR is like tuning radios IFR, you keep up your scan and divert a little attention to the secondary task.
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa72/Aerowerk/Cottonboysflying03.jpg
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa72/Aerowerk/th_DSCN0661.jpg (http://s198.photobucket.com/albums/aa72/Aerowerk/?action=view&current=DSCN0661.flv)

-- IFMU

I would be most surprised to hear of someone who hasn't taken a photo from inside a light aircraft while PiC. :confused: With modern point and shoot cameras there's no need to look through the view-finder or focus the picture. All you do is use your free hand to lift up the camera and press the tit, so to speak. Hardly dangerous...even if on final approach.

Mind you, the original poster may have been referring to the situation where a solo pilot embarks on a flight solely for the purposes of taking aerial photographs with an SLR camera. That would be a little unusual and probably irresponsible unless it's a fixed camera with a remote shutter release.

I have some amusing pictures that I took in Wiltshire, of a scatty, angry old dear waving her fist at me, as I flew repeatedly over her roof at 100ft.

I have some amusing pictures that I took in Wiltshire, of a scatty, angry old dear waving her fist at me, as I flew repeatedly over her roof at 100ft.


Be careful of scars earned in battles in which you should never have fought.

Or, simply put, don't save photographic evidence of acting stupid.

Maybe jollrog was just refering to taking a photo on approach?

Let's face it, Taking a quick picture with a digital camera is not going to take alot of effort. But setting up an SLR camera, then flying to whatever it is you want to take a picture of, is not advisable when flying the aircraft, and communicating with ATC

Aviate navigate communicate (exclude the SLR)

Cheers

Put

Until the advent of GPS loggers, a photo of the turnpoint was the method used to validate completion of the task in glider competition or badge flights. I don't think it ever led to problems. Using a modern point-and-shoot takes less concentration than changing radio frequencies or altimeter sub scale.

Those of us of the grey-haired persuasion will remember the late '60s and '70s when every pub you went into had a usually crap, B&W oblique photo blown up several times too much and in a cheap frame on the wall. Also, if you lived in the country you had cheerful 'student-types' knocking on the door a couple of times per year to flog a pic or two of your house, on commission.

At that time there were two or three companies operating Piper Cubs with the solo pilot shooting back over his/her shoulder with a 200mm telephoto on a 35mm camera. All too often these were PPLs getting hours in for their CPL.s

These days point-and-shoot digital cameras (and Photoshop) take most of the risk out of pilot-pix, but the 'hire-and-reward' aspect still exists if the products are used commercially.

A lot of serious scientific and planning aerial photography with small aircraft and even microlights goes on however, especially in Universiity projects (Bath Spa, Newcastle etc), although not solo pilot tasks.

Basically, in answer to the original question, it ain't illegal if the aircraft and pilot are legal and flown in permissable airspace at correct altitude, but if the 'commercial' aspect comes into play it may well be.

Good books on the subject: www.whittlespublishing.com (http://www.whittlespublishing.com)

A camera sits permanently next to my leatherman on my belt when I fly. There are too many once-only sights and spectacular views from the cockpit to NOT take photographs!

Its exactly the same as eating lunch, or listening to iPods. If you're too busy to do so, then don't do it. But if you're established in climb, cruise or descent, the aircraft is trimmed, traffic is appropriate and you don't take your attention away from the aircraft for long, there's absolutely no reason why you can't make use of the reduced demand on your skills.

It astounds me that in the aircraft I am required to drive the vehicle in four dimensions (roll, pitch, yaw and speed), listen to two different radios at the same time, and talk on both of them too (Area and CTAF), coordinate with other traffic as well as the ATC, read a map, re-program a GPS, navigate myself in those same four dimensions, monitor half a dozen engine gauges, provide scenic commentary to the passengers, eat my lunch, take photographs, prevent small children from throwing up, find the weather radar images over the internet for my destination and write down all sorts of information on my flight plan, all at the same time,

while in a car, driving the vehicle in two dimensions (yaw and speed) is considered taxing enough that I am not permitted to speak on the telephone. :ugh:

Lasiorhinus
driving the vehicle in two dimensions (yaw and speed)
I think you are being a bit disingenuous. You forget peering through spray, dodging the white vans and blacked-out-windows cowboys, looking out for (and looking after) wobbly cyclists, children and dogs. Then there is the art of judging the approach to the centre lane high sided crawler whilst looking for a slot in the 85mph fast laners and making sure you will still see the expected signs for the unfamiliar motorway junction. It's all worse than a short landing flare near cross wind limits, and it lasts a lot longer.

A nicely trimmed leg on a good VFR day is just so much less stressful. And you get to look at the scenery below as well as the sky. IMHO snapping the passing scenery from above is generally much safer than telephoning whilst drivingl.

IMHO, this is all a question of when you take your picture. Rotation, flare or final is probably not the right time (ok, on a 20NM final...may be). Particularly if the AP is handling the plane, I don't see any problems in that.

If you still consider taking a photo as dangerous, what about drinking ? dehydration can be a serious issue for flights over 1.5 hours, so it's strongly recommended to drink. Personally, I can't drink and watch airspace (I'm somehow limited...).

Not mentioning the use of Little John... which also requires LOT of attention.