Swiss Mountain Training on FAA N-registered helicopter

[Runway101]

I'll be flying a N-registered helicopter in Switzerland this summer (with my FAA private ticket).

I am aware that I won't be able to get the mountain rating as I don't have a swiss license, but will I be able to get training (dual instruction) from an FAA instructor in Switzerland to gain some mountain experience? I guess some training will be better than no training at all.

If Switzerland is a no-go, would Austria or Germany be an alternative? I understand that Austria and Germany don't have a mountain rating and no mountain landing sites (and off-airport landings are against regulations AFAIK).

Any European FAA instructors?

[tecpilot]

Simple answer, No way.

No way to get the mountain rating with FAA license, no official flight instruction in a JAA land like Switzerland on non JAA registered ships and with non JAA licensed pilots.
No way to land in a US registered ship on a mountain landing spot, because no FAA license holder will hold a mountain rating.

No way to get a permission for off-airfield landings in all countries with a simple PPL, especially with a foreign non JAA license.

Your trip will be funny. You will fly only between the fields like a plank and you will be scared by the snow covered mountains.

[Buitenzorg]

Ahem.

Things aren't quite as bleak as tecpilot represents, although off-airport landings will involve a lot (too much? you decide) planning, permissions and paperwork.

There are some current European pilots who also hold current FAA CFI certificates. Since they'd be acting as PIC the applications would be based on their status. I don't currently fly in Europe but I know two Austrian pilots (one of whom worked in Germany last I knew) and one Swiss who also hold FAA CFIs. I'm forwarding your query to them so if any of them are interested they'll contact you by PM.

[tecpilot]

Just read my post correct.

No questions there are a lot of european pilots holding a FAA instructor rating. But they can fly the whole day long with Runway101, but their efforts are official senseless because they could not give local CAA approved mountain instruction in the described countries. If Runway101 will have more than 1000h with such instructorpilots it will change nothing in off-field and mountain landing.

And a FAA licensed pilot flying a US registered a/c could not land the ship on swiss mountain spots because he is on the way with a non swiss accepted licence for mountain landings. Which kind of instructions will they give in this way?

I could not have an US instructor rating without FAA license and Runway101 will not get a swiss national mountain rating without swiss or JAA license.

[Buitenzorg]

Just read Runway101's post correct.

I am aware that I won't be able to get the mountain rating as I don't have a swiss license, but will I be able to get training (dual instruction) from an FAA instructor in Switzerland to gain some mountain experience? I guess some training will be better than no training at all.

Not everyone seeking instruction is after official paper qualifications. Runway101 appears to just want to improve his skills and broaden his experience.

BTW, what disqualifies an FAA CFI from holding a JAA instructor rating?

Runway101, insurance requirements for off-airport landings might be the biggest obstruction to your plans.

[Runway101]

Thanks for your replies.

No way to get the mountain rating with FAA license, no official flight instruction in a JAA land like Switzerland on non JAA registered ships and with non JAA licensed pilots.

If that is true, then a mentor-pilot is what I need. But he needs to have the experience and needed ratings to fly in the mountains and fly the N-ship though.

No way to land in a US registered ship on a mountain landing spot, because no FAA license holder will hold a mountain rating.

BAZL says that foreign pilots need a check out with a swiss instructor (124 RFP) before they can land on mountain landing spots on their own. Not sure if this is only available for foreign _mountain_ license holders, or for foreign license holders in general. The only mountain licenses I can think of are NZ and maybe France, but what do I know.

No way to get a permission for off-airfield landings in all countries with a simple PPL, especially with a foreign non JAA license.

The BAZL has no problem with off-airports using foreign registered helicopters for private purpose. I'll be indeed excercising the rights of my private license, but I've been told that this is not a problem. Use form 54-05_Checklist_ALB-PRIVAT_foreign-helicopter (available in different languages) to apply. I will definitely check if the insurance allows off airports. I can survive without off-airports to be honest. Or did I misunderstand something, and these mountain landing spots are off-airports?

I am really not after the official rating, I just want to get some training. Flying in the mountains doesn't only mean landing on these mountain landing spots or grass field, in my opinion it includes a lot more than that. I've of course read books and have the standard knowledge that comes with the FAA ticket and flying in the pacific northwest.

When I wrote my original post, I assumed that only FAA pilots will be able to fly on N-ships. If it turns out that JAA pilots can also fly them, it would indeed be much easier. And to be honest, if there is no way to get instructions (which means logging as dual received), then a "mentor pilot" is fine with me. It's all about learning from the experienced.

Your trip will be funny. You will fly only between the fields like a plank and you will be scared by the snow covered mountains.

Flying between fields is the standard way in most of Europe, so no surprise here. Bring on the rest :P (although snow covered mountains will certainly be limited during the summer even in Switzerland).

[RVDT]

You can download the form here - BAZL MOU Application (http://www.bazl.admin.ch/fachleute/sammlung/index.html?lang=en&download=M3wBPgDB/8ull6Du36WcnojN14in3qSbnpWVZGifnU6p1rJgsYfhyt3NhqbdqIV+bau5b KbXrZ6lhuDZz8mMps2go6fo&.pdf)

From memory - it's a while since I held a Swiss Licence - you should be OK landing "off airport" with the necessary permissions and proof of insurance blah blah............

Under PVT OPS there are limitations on the number of times you may do it in calendar period.

The sticking point is that to land above 2700 metres you need the MOU and you need a Min No. of landings and this must be kept current.

Effectively as a PPL or CPL for that matter you may only land at the designated places as listed in the AIP which are on the form. If you are a CPL operating for a Commercial Operator you may land anywhere so long as you have the MOU and the operations are covered in the Flight Operations Manual of that operator.

To read between the lines - it would basically stop/limit lesser experienced people screwing up in the mountains.

If you look at page 2 of the form some of the spots are fairly high. In days past I used to land at Fuorcla Grischa, Vadret del Corvatsch and Vorabgletscher.

Not a promotion in any way but Thomas Baerfuss could be a place to start at Heli Berina (http://www.helibernina.ch/_page/index.php?rubric=en_flugschule) if you just want some "mountain training". These guys were weaned on it!

Also being based at LSZS (http://www.engadin-airport.ch/index.php?id=24&L=1) you are already at 5600' to begin with.

Whoever you find may be able to be PIC for the duration of the flight as long as they meet FAR § 61.3 Requirement for certificates, ratings, and authorizations.

(a) Pilot certificate. A person may not act as pilot in command or in any other capacity as a required pilot flight crewmember of a civil aircraft of U.S. registry, unless that person—

(1) Has a valid pilot certificate or special purpose pilot authorization issued under this part in that person's physical possession or readily accessible in the aircraft when exercising the privileges of that pilot certificate or authorization. However, when the aircraft is operated within a foreign country, a current pilot license issued by the country in which the aircraft is operated may be used; and

(2) Has a photo identification that is in that person's physical possession or readily accessible in the aircraft when exercising the privileges of that pilot certificate or authorization.

And FAR § 61.41 Flight training received from flight instructors not certificated by the FAA.

(a) A person may credit flight training toward the requirements of a pilot certificate or rating issued under this part, if that person received the training from:

(1) A flight instructor of an Armed Force in a program for training military pilots of either—

(i) The United States; or

(ii) A foreign contracting State to the Convention on International Civil Aviation.

(2) A flight instructor who is authorized to give such training by the licensing authority of a foreign contracting State to the Convention on International Civil Aviation, and the flight training is given outside the United States.

(b) A flight instructor described in paragraph (a) of this section is only authorized to give endorsements to show training given.

Not that there is an equivalent qualification issued by the US of course.

Best of luck!

[tecpilot]

May be some things are changing every day especially in CAA. It's a little bit tricky at the moment with JAR-FCL2. The older RFP is generally not more in use except for the last holders of the "old" swiss licences. Means Runway101 is today a non JAA licence holder in JAA land, with all the known problems.

Therefore it should be difficult and time intensive to get a off-field landing permission without swiss accepted licence and swiss registered ship.
http://www.bazl.admin.ch/fachleute/flugbetrieb/00325/01010/index.html?lang=en&download=M3wBUQCu/8ulmKDu36WenojQ1NTTjaXZnqWfVp3Uhmfhnapmmc7Zi6rZnqCkkIN2hH+Eb KbXrZ2lhtTN34al3p6YrY7P1oah162apo3X1cjYh2+hoJVn6w==.pdf

This a a official checklist for off-field landing requests (private landings!).
Please note the terms: "valid swiss PPL or CHPL" and "swiss registered helicopter"
http://www.bazl.admin.ch/fachleute/flugbetrieb/00325/01010/index.html?lang=en&download=M3wBUQCu/8ulmKDu36WenojQ1NTTjaXZnqWfVp3Uhmfhnapmmc7Zi6rZnqCkkIN3fHZ/bKbXrZ2lhtTN34al3p6YrY7P1oah162apo3X1cjYh2+hoJVn6w==.pdf

As i know a foreign ship can today only land off-field after a special request and only for special business (foreign AOC-holder).
http://www.bazl.admin.ch/fachleute/flugbetrieb/00325/00806/01006/index.html?lang=de&download=M3wBUQCu/8ulmKDu36WenojQ1NTTjaXZnqWfVpzLhmfhnapmmc7Zi6rZnqCkkIN3f36Cb KbXrZ2lhtTN34al3p6YrY7P1oah162apo3X1cjYh2+hoJVn6w==.pdf&.pdf

All off-field landings (swiss pilots and foreign AOC-Holders) are generally limited to 1100m MSL without the mountain rating.

Runway101 can have very good non official mountain training by several companies on swiss registered ships. They will show him everything he need in the mountains, but it will be only for his private wellness.

124 RFP is only for holders of a foreign special mountain rating and because of the lacking JAA licences (needed as base licence) practically today not longer usable.

@RVDT Switzerland is now a full JAA country everything will be done according to JAR-FCL 2 Amd.5


But everything can be allowed by the CAA ;) Check it out!