Typhoon Wheels-up Trial in China Lake?

[Shutup_and_drive]

My friends in low places tell me the Typhoon "Finals-No-Greens-Land-Buggah" trial has just been completed in China Lake... can anyone corroborate?

Rumour has it that it wouldn't have happened if there'd been a Nav in the back... discuss
... and runs away bravely... :rolleyes:

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Agreed, all RAF aircraft should have a minimum of two engines, two seats and one Navigator (and I mean Navigator):p

[airborne_artist]

and what difference would a directional consultant have made?

[Dan D'air]

AA, Ask john fairr, he has several interesting tales to tell................:}

[Chugalug2]

and what difference would a directional consultant have made?

Presumably that the drinks would have been on two, rather than the one, bar books. Either way, Chugalug!

[johnfairr]

That's my reputation shot to hell then, Dan! Being replaced by a bunch of volts, amps and micro-chips is a sad indictment of the hours spent spinning my Magic Prayer Wheel in the back of various aircraft . . .

jf

[Shutup_and_drive]

Interesting to note that the Autopilot was invented before the Inertial Nav, so draw your own conclusion as to what was perceived to be the far more difficult job... :8

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

I can't recall an inadvertant "wheels up" with a nav on board, but I'm sure there's someone out there who will let me know.( I have been in a wheels up, but as it was a total hyd failure it was deliberate- or eject)
However, back to the main "story", Su and D, what's the detail on the China Lake incident?

[ZH875]

Interesting to note that the Autopilot was invented before the Inertial Nav, so draw your own conclusion as to what was perceived to be the far more difficult job... :8

And they still haven't invented the automatic groundcrew, so draw your own conclusions from that one.

If there was a 'low level' landing, hope the driver climbed out ok, but he better not wash his shreddies in the Heritage laundry....:ooh:

[Duncano]

Surely 'Bitching Betty' or 'Nagging Norah' would have been dishing out advice all the way to the crash site!
:\

[KiloB]

I suppose it is possible that the simpler jobs are automated first??!!:O

[Gainesy]

Automatic barriers back that theory.:E

[johnfairr]

Ah, Gainesy, another effort of deadly accuracy . . . great start to a Friday afternoon, I can feel the virtual pint being poured as we speak!

Top shot, sir!

jf

[Safety_Helmut]

Well I suppose it does make it easier for the highly trained aircraft technicians and all of the other RAF Trades (except the RAFP) who are forced to do gate guard.
all down to availability of police dogs !

S_H

[fastener]

By all means have a Nav, gives the pilot something to eat while he waits for the rescue chopper to pick him up but I think he's there for more than a manual landing config warning.

[GPMG]

Is it to be the ugly/uninteresting one whilst the pilot is out on the pull?

[Loopdeloop]

Difference between an IN and a Nav anyone?

You only have to punch the information into an IN once......

[artyhug]

Difference between a thousand pounder and a Nav?


Not all thousand pounders are retarded...

[Charizma]

Pilot ejected on the ground and is fine from what i hear.

Was no emergency crew on standby during finals, suggesting no Pan call.

[SammySu]

Thought the Typhoon downwind checks had just the one line anyway? Less than xxxkts ...... Gear Down.? Or is this the trial solution to stopping all the bits falling off in the circuit when you did so? ;)

Glad you're ok anyhow, jets are expendable.

[Wrathmonk]

Charizma

I think you may have heard very wrong about the first part of your first sentence. Second part is quite correct (excusing the inevitable hangover:p).

R-O-G

What about the Buccaneer wheels up at Lossie, sometime in the 90s. Think the jet was perfectly serviceable until it touched terra firma - front seater went on to fly little red jets very close to each other and the back seater is a very senior officer at High Wycombe. But of course theres no gear indicator in the back of a Bucc .... or is there? Not to be confused with the other Bucc which landed wheels up because it had to - wasn't you was it? Never seen aircrew run so fast in the egress!

[Op_Twenty]

A GR4 rolled at night at Waddington on the CBLS's...does happen in twin seat.

[Pie Man]

But both of the GR4 crew were pilots. :D

pi

[BlackTorch]

At Cottesmore during Triple TE days a German landed wheels up. Hand on undercarriage lever when the a/c bounced. Wheels went up and a/c landed. I don't know if it was a twin stick variant.

[Lurking123]

F4 drop tank "roller" at Leuchars in the mid 80s. ISTR the pilot was an extremely talented pianist; he just forgot to tinkle the ivory when required.

[Stitchbitch]

Not RAF, but didn't a B-1B make a landing sans wheels in Diego Garcia? Does the equal number of pilots and wsops cancel this one out? :E

[advocatusDIABOLI]

Lurkin,

you are correct, a very tallented pianist, and had a great tallent for the organ also...... I understand.

Advo

[Exrigger]

BlackTorch: My recollection is slightly different and I was told it happened twice, the first with a German QFI and an Italian learner, preselected U/C up on take off run ,as soon as the WOW switches operated the U/C went up and the aircraft dropped and contacted the runway, the German QFI managed to get it in the air. The second incident had the same combination (but not the same crew), but this one did not manage to get in the air. If I remember correctly the aircraft did not take long to fix and this practice was stopped after this.

[glad rag]

Conningsby denial weapon!
Always remember WO Rects sqn deciding HE would be the MAN to wield the sledgehammer, they don't make them like that anymore!!

[Satellite_Driver]

Never seen aircrew run so fast in the egress!

They might have had some competition from the crew of the Lightning twin-seater I saw at Akrotiri back in '87, after ATC had informed them of a suspect fire in the tailpipe area...

That was quite an eventful week, what with the 5 Sqn aircraft that in effect shot itself down during APC. It ingested debris from the banner spreader bar, lost one engine, then the other gave up during finals. The pilot (Flt Lt Chan, if I remember correctly) banged out so low that by the time we piled outside following the crash siren there was no parachute to be seen, and we all assumed he'd gone in with the aircraft until the Stn Cdr came on the tannoy half an hour later to announce that he was unhurt.

[Kitbag]

Right, straightforward question, those who don't know the answer can shut the f#@+ up. Which Typhoon, how many wheels were down? Aircraft provisional Cat?

[F.O.D]

The Tornado wheels up at Cottesmore in the early 1990s was due to the pilot inadvertantly selecting gear up as he crossed the threshold on landing. The gear started its retraction sequence just before touchdown and the jet slid along most of the runway before stopping on the centreline on its belly. Some spotter filmed it and the video was shown on the ITV news shortly after the incident. It was a probable cognitive failure, the pilot had intended to cancel an audio warning but his hand did its own thing and put the gear lever up instead!

IIRC, there were two pilots in the jet, but there was nothing the rear seater could have done.

Regards

F.O.D

[L Peacock]

Ex rigger. You can't preselect the gear up. If you o/ride the wow and select up, the gear will do what you've asked it to.

[Lord Elpus]

I can't recall an inadvertant "wheels up" with a nav on board, but I'm sure there's someone out there who will let me know.

There was a Bucc at Lossie which landed inadvertantly wheels up sometime during 92 or 93! The rear seater went on to be an AOC!

[Lurking123]

Right, straightforward question, those who don't know the answer can shut the f#@+ up. Which Typhoon, how many wheels were down? Aircraft provisional Cat?

One of the grey ones (I think it may have been a CGY aircraft).

Less than three.

Between 1 & 5


Only trying to be helpful. :O

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Wrathmonk and Lord E, thanks for the head up,(no pun intended!). No, there's no u/c indicator in the back of a Bucc, but the survival insticts of a nav is normally sufficient.... suppose I must know the "AOC- to -be" in the back. Thanks old boy for proving me wrong. My wheels up was another generation (Barney Rubble time) in a B15 Canberra, and sadly my pilot is no longer with us after a mid air with terra firma and his Jag - (RIP Geordie)

[On_The_Top_Bunk]

I have some video. But it's NWS.

[ZH875]

I have some video. But it's NWS.


Is it FOUO?

[jwcook]

Can anyone tell me if the refueling probe was out when it landed???

and any chance of posting the video or still frames??

PS what does NWS mean?? is it "not with sound"???

[On_The_Top_Bunk]

Ignore my stupidity please........

FOUO is probably very relevant in this case. :)

[ZH875]

Ignore my stupidity please........

FOUO is probably very relevant in this case. :)


I was just wondering if it was higher that was all, if you get my drift.:=

[bakseetblatherer]

Artyhug, your comment is evidence of too many 'schmokes and pancakes'! Have you got used to 'G', or are you still dribbling on yourself?:E

[artyhug]

Careful now or my secret superhero identity might be revealed to the detriment of world safety... Besides, currently sunning myself in the US of A for 4 months so no such luck!

Now get back to the rugrats and vineyards and say hello to the missus for me.

[Gainesy]

So, did it or didn't it?

[jwcook]

Would a C-17 be delivering this back to Warton soon??

[TBM-Legend]

Twr to pilot....'errr confirm ops normal?' [RAAF F-4E just does a 'scrape' and go at Amberley AFB circa 1974]

Pilot to nav....'we had wheels on that touch and go???' :uhoh:...."must have!":mad:

[BEagle]

Pilot to nav....'we had wheels on that touch and go???'


"Yeah, we must have had. You told me there was a big flashing 'WHEELS' caption".........:rolleyes:

[cornish-stormrider]

I can understand having system failures but the GIF forgets to put the bloody wheels down. It's not exactly the rocket science part of the trip? plus are there not a set of checks to do??

Still, even the best of us can have blonde moments, I had so many I dyed my hair. 1 trip to the swo for a chat, nope no coffee and biscuits forthcoming. final score swo won, badass mofo J/T didn't.

Hope the driver is ok though.

[Gainesy]

Would a C-17 be delivering this back to Warton soon??

Would it fit in a C-17? (In one piece).

[mystic_meg]

Would it fit in a C-17? (In one piece).

Doubt it.... now, if it had been made with folding wings..... :ok:

[ZH875]

No, it would not fit, as Typhoon is 15.96m (52ft 4in) long, 10.95m (35ft 11in) wide and 5.28m (17ft 4in) high.

The cargo bay of the C-17, which is 88 ft (26.82 m) long, 18 ft (5.48 m) wide, and 12.33 ft (3.76 m) high.

Typhoon could probably do a high speed 180 degree turn in the area occupied by a C-17.

[Double Zero]

Assuming no-one was hurt - except the taxpayer - this has been one of the most amusing threads I've seen lately ( re. the replies ) !

Off thread for a moment, speaking of taxpayers; isn't it strange that £4 billion for a couple of aircraft carriers is regarded obscene, while £50 billion to help banks who " privatise their profits and nationalise their losses " is given out within the blink of an eye ?!

Back to subject -

As a mere pleb' photographer, a poor substitute for a Navigator - tried that on little aeroplanes & the biggest problem was convincing el piloto he'd got it wrong - I always tried to be useful looking at instruments, colliding aircraft etc and did among other things prevent a take-off with 2 greens in our PA-44 by an ex-Lightning pilot - as he said, in a remarkably P'd off tone, " it's always the simple ones that get you ".

I expect if this did happen with the Europhoon, there were so many 'whoop whoop' tones and voice warnings the poor bloke couldn't hear himself think.

Incidentally I would dearly like to see a Typhoon do a 180 in the footprint of a C-17 and would be the first to applaud !

[puff m'call]

Don't these fancy modern jets have a sweet little vioce that say's 'TOO LOW GEAR" or words to that affect

All that money and no talking radalt.... got one on my 777. :ok:

[TEEEJ]

Don't shoot the messenger! I've also seen rumours that this airframe was ZJ943 on loan to 17 Sqn!

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/04/28/223336/raf-eurofighter-damaged-in-us-landing-incident.html

'Believed to be assigned to the RAF’s Coningsby-based 17 Sqn Operational Evaluation Unit, the aircraft “sustained damage on landing,” the RAF says. The pilot did not eject from the aircraft, which came to rest on the runway, and was not injured in the mishap.

“The damage is still being assessed,” says an RAF source, who adds that a Board of Inquiry has already been established to investigate the cause of the accident. The service’s remaining fleet of almost 50 Typhoons – including aircraft providing permanent quick reaction alert duties for the southern UK from Coningsby – has not been grounded, and “there is no suggestion of airworthiness being compromised,” the source adds.'

TJ

[Double Zero]

Maybe there's a design snag in the audio warning system - carbon fibre just doesn't give that instinctive scraping sound; also available as a doppler - effect yell if with a Navigator !

I don't know about the Typhoon, but when G-Hawk was fitted with 'moaning Minnie' some Test Pilot's first action was to reach for the switch / circuit breaker as it got on their ***'s...

I remember a tale related here a while ago where an airliner had failed to take the turn-off assigned by a female ATC - when asked why, the reply was, " sorry, you sound so much like my wife I automatically ignored you ".

[HighTow]

Don't these fancy modern jets have a sweet little vioce that say's 'TOO LOW GEAR" or words to that affectI thought the response from the pilot to the warning was amusing. (Fast Forward to 3:45)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APiiKsH0dR4

[Nige321]

Must be true...

It's in the Daily Mail (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=563179&in_page_id=1770)...

And the Bun (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/campaigns/our_boys/article1110935.ece)

:suspect:

N

[ZH875]

I like the quote from the Sun:

But the pilot is unlikely to be sacked even if he was to blame. The RAF cannot afford to lose a flier who cost £3million to train

But it can afford to 'train' William Wales who will never be an operational pilot.

Wales may not have used £3 million, but I wonder what the actual cost to the RAF was?. Would the MOD be able to find that data if an FOI request was put in, or would they simply claim that 'all training costs for HRH were within various budgets and just cannot be separated'.

Of interest is this little snippet (http://www.targetlock.org.uk/typhoon/service_uk.html).

The third and potentially most serious problem revolved around the aircraft's Landing Gear Computer (LGC). There had been at least 18 failures of the LGC, including one which grounded the whole fleet on October 10th 2003. QinetiQ considered that there was an unquantifiable risk that the Weight-on-Wheels relays could become corrupted, leading to the FCS switching from "Flight" to "Ground" mode, which would be "immediately catastrophic". QinetiQ therefore recommended that RTS be delayed while the LGC anomalies were further investigated. The Typhoon IPT did not include this recommendation in the RTS however, as it considered that the risk of a catastrophic failure was so small as to be acceptable.


Is it possible there are other faults in the LGC?.

[chiglet]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlaJJXkS3uo&feature=email
He may just have done what this French pilot did.....:E
watp,iktch

[Double Zero]

The thing needs a computer to put the wheels down ?!

The term 'UAV' springs to mind...

[Airborne Aircrew]

The thing needs a computer to put the wheels down ?!

Apparently, managing the gear is a tad too complex for the two winged master race these days... After all, there's three whole states to be taken into account - up, down or fecked... :E

[Elmlea]

Thank you, Daily Mail readers, for brightening up the afternoon: :E

Will this pilot be flying with nuclear weapons?

Hope that he doesn't deploy them accidentally - or as the RAF insider quoted 'Everything points to the pilot forgetting -- which does happen from time to time.

Should we be worried?

[GreenKnight121]

Engineers will examine the plane to see whether it is safe to fly back to Britain or whether it should be returned to the UK on board a carrier.


I don't know if a CVN will be heading that way anytime soon... but then this would be the first Typhoon on a carrier, eh? Typhoon-N?
:E

[gsora]

Puff mc call says:

Don't these fancy modern jets have a sweet little vioce that say's 'TOO LOW GEAR" or words to that affect

All that money and no talking radalt.... got one on my 777. :ok:


I say, Oh POO, would`nt get on a 777 for all the tea in China lake!

[Green Flash]

I say, Oh POO, would`nt get on a 777 for all the tea in China lake!
And we are getting 330's so ya boo sucks :p

[blogger]

Take the damage from the pillocks pay.

RAF be the best......... HAR HAR HAR.

[twb3]

> Maybe there's a design snag in the audio warning system - carbon fibre just doesn't give that instinctive scraping sound...

When it takes MIL thrust to initiate taxi...

[Backwards PLT]

Blogger

I have just been scanning your previous posts and you appear to be an extremely bitter and twisted ex-member of the RAF. Next time, before you make an abusive comment like the one above, perhaps you should wait until you know the full facts of the incident and then THINK before you type. Although I realise that that may not be possible.

[maxburner]

This has been a very interesting thread. I'd guess that not one in a hundred posters here has seen a Typhoon cockpit, and probably less than one in a thousand has any access to the facts of this incident. Nevertheless, various people have blamed the pilot or the design, or both, and have advocated stopping pay or even, somehow, pulled Prince William into the debate.

Give it a rest! I know it's rumour network, but this is beyond a joke. Accept it, you don't know what happened and for most of you, you never will.

Rant over. Now I must get back to the beach.

[Regie Mental]

Always found it peculiar that US bases do not have a runway caravan as per Brit bases, not least because of the sizes of some US bases where the approach is some considerable distance from the tower.

Presumably IF an aircraft was approaching an RAF base without one or more of it's wheels deployed this (should) be picked up by the Air Trafficer manning the caravan? Just a thought.

[cornish-stormrider]

Activating Rumour Control.

I did hear of an incident at ISL a while back where a pair of Master Race were bringing a mighty thunder sled of the GR4 variety into land and the girly in the caravan did have to remind them of "undercarrige". GIF was hugely embarrassed and claimed he was doing a late drop of the wheels, I think his excuse was he was testing the caravan controller was awake.

Said girlie kicked teddie out of pram, went and found them then ripped them both to bits with a huge tirade ending with something along the lines of the old growbag comments........ (green, full of sh*t, smells bad) GIF then moaned to his boss who had already had a nice chat with satco.

One crew, duty dogsbody over easter, one girlie getting tea and medals.

IIRC the rumour was that the crew were given duty dogsbody not for the wheels but because GIF had the temerity to try and lie his way out of it.

Integrity, costs nothing. Worth, a fortune

[exscribbler]

I always understood the Master Race to be the Executive Branch of the Royal Navy. :ok:

[BEagle]

cornish-stormrider, what a sorry tale. I hope that the bomber crew gave their boss a thorough hats-on listening-to!

Top marks to the lass in the caravan - both for stopping the potential wheels-up and for sticking to her guns. The bomber pukes should have sent her something to thank her, not lied like cheap Changi watches!

[Clockwork Mouse]

I suppose it's too much to hope for that this unfortunate faux-pas by a professional boy in blue will lead to a reduction in comments by blue Prune posters about an earlier cocked-up landing in Islay by a mere amateur?

[jwcook]

I'm interested in the Nagging Nora voice, is it a real persons voice?

A long time ago I had heard/read/saw that Nagging Nora had a boyfriend:8, I can't for the life of me remember where I got this from..

So Is there anyone who knows if Nagging Nora has a male counter part voice that just gives non critical Info? or was it just too much for the pilot to listen too all the gabble.
Was it ever implemented on the Typhoon or was it just a rig mockup???

The psychological reason is that a man is hard wired to listen to women, yes strange but true, and slightly scary.

i.e. if a male and a female speak at the same time the guy filters out the other male voice.

This may be reversed for women!!, but my I only have my wife to test that on, and she doesn't listen to me.

Cheers

[TEEEJ]

I've popped up some Typhoon practice display snaps on the following thread. Congrats to the team and all the best for the airshow season!

http://forums.airshows.co.uk/cgi-bin/ukarboard/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=9;t=47067;st=0

Not bad flying for a Kiwi!

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h261/TOMMYJO/DSC_0014TYPHOON.jpg

http://www.typhoondisplay.com/the_team.html

Cheers

TJ

[Something witty]

Bloody hell cant be that difficult to remember... sodding crabs! :p

Now my (pretty poor) banter is over, I can think of a number of incidents where gear was lowered a little later than normal (some a few days late). It's not a new phenomenom and so long as there's a human in the loop it'll carry on (that is NOT to say that computers are infalible either!).

Whether you see 'Human Factors,' or whatever today's version is called, as a 'reason' or 'excuse,' I would think anyone taking the moral high ground is taking a risk... after all, it's not as though you know you won't do the same yourself - there but for the grace of God and all that :eek:

[TOPBUNKER]

Just leave it in the desert!!!!
Perhaps some ill cat (think about it chaps) could saw the wings off and go for a land-speed record one day.

After all, it's not of any use in any deserts to the East!

Furthermore, it's already served it's purpose - i.e. a vehicle to transfer taxpayers' money from the Defence Budget into the BAE coffers. Oh, and possibly, aledgedly, a few quid into a certain Arab Prince's "entertainment budget".

But of course BAE will be doing the mending, so they get paid yet again for fixing the pointless pointy thing.

By the way; any votes for there NOT having been a golden-gloved wonder-pilot at the controls believing that he (or she!) was better than the wisdom of the GPWS?

[JFZ90]

GPWS - I assume this is a reference to how it is moded during landing phases (which I don't know).

Obviously the GPWS does give you Pull Up cues when it calculates the aircraft will impact the ground given a number of variables. Now obviously you don't want this going off when you're landing (you are intentionally flying into the ground), so it will be inhibited somehow (I don't know how this happens) - but an obvious mechanism would be to link it to something like "landing phase", or wheels down.

You can see a case for leaving the GPWS function running whenever the wheels are up, but don't know whether this would still make sense from a Typhoon system perspective - I think this is what TOPBUNKER is alluding to (certainly it is hard to miss the massive great arrow and pull up cue in the HUD when a GPWS event is activated - so if it was tripped it would take some ignoring!).

[LuckyBreak]

For info, on the GR.4 the GPWS is inhibited below 200kts, hence it doesn't go off on landing. If you're doing a wings back approach (where your threshold speed is above 200kts) you have to manually switch it off.

If the Typhoon uses the same system (more than likely) then the GPWS wouldn't have prevented it as it it based on speed.

Hope this helps!

[CANOPUS]

Any long memories mid 1980's USAF C-5A Galaxy gear up instructor pilot at either Lubbock or Amarillo, Texas USA? :\

[PAX richi]

I merely pass on this news, without comment.Looks like the rear of the wing/fuselage wore through and ground into the engines. Might be why it caught on fire. You can see fire damage on the vertical stab. I suppose it will take a while to fix...

[cockanelli]

was talking to a load of Typhoon chaps in Feb. Even back then, there were bits falling off the undercarriage every so often so they were only allowed to lower gear over the sea or designated parts of Lincolnshire and were doing gear down ccts. They reckoned it was only a matter of time before someone had a cognitive failure and a mishap of this type happened.

[Madbob]

I recall a similar accident when a Lightning T5 being flown by OC 5 Sqn landed spectacularly on its ventral tank at Binbrook. This happened shortly after another Lightning had had an U/C problem when about to land at Valley - he couldn't get the port U/C to lower and a short time later ejected over the Irish Sea.:D

It was concluded that excess "wear" was being experienced cycling the gear after every low approach (the Lightning seldom did touch and goes or rollers to save the tyres - high pressure, very narrow and very expensive). As a consequence Wg Cdr **** omitted to lower the gear when downwind to land with the inevitable result......

The holes in the cheese appear to have lined-up again.....:ugh:

MB

[Valiantone]

The Lightning in question was an LTF jet from memory and It happened in 1981, the Valley jet was inbound for static at Valley's airshow in 1979, I cannot remember the pilots name off the top of my head, but he was the cousin of our insurance lady in Immingham. Its a small world

As for the T.5, Dad has some interesting pics from outside the fence of it, and it was repaired and did fly again.


V1

[Double Zero]

I know much has been said already about GPWS, which I appreciate is, as I understand it, more for avoiding CFIT than anything else.

However even on the poxy little PA-44 I used to photograph from, there was a " Warning Gear Unsafe" klaxon & flashing light whenever at low height, which seemed just the job to avoid such embarassments.

Not sure if it was tied into airspeed, but that doesn't sound difficult on such a complex & well equipped aircraft as Typhoon...

Too simple ?!

[Madbob]

17th August 1979RAFLightning F.3XP737 "N" LTF11 SquadronPart of undercarriage would not lower. Crashed into the Irish Sea off RAF Valley inbound to Valley for the open day on 18-8-1979,
AngleseyFlg. Off. R. T. KnowIes

V1 here are the details of the accident you referred to in your post above.

MB

[HalloweenJack]

any pictures yet of the `phoon?

[uncle peter]

Madbob,

I think you'll find its Fg Off R F Knowles...:E

[Madbob]

UP - check your PM's

MB

[delta96]

A bit OT but does anyone recall an 'incident' at Biggin Hill, July 1969, where a Jet Provost allegedly piloted by a senior rank rotated, lifted off and then returned to the runway just as the gear had retracted? I recall it was a hot day, I was at Biggin enjoying my flying scholarship course at the Surrey & Kent Flying Club on the other side of the airfield. I can't find any reference to it on the 'web.

[Tightflester]

Too simple ?!

I wouldn’t put yourself down that much old-boy.
Ok, maybe you're speculating about something which you have no knowledge, but that doesn't necessarily mean you’re too simple.

[Chris Kebab]

Uncle - you also need to get the accent in there somehow!

[Idle Reverse]

Don't know if it was an R F or an R T . . . but I do know it was the charismatic, young Irish flying officer Ray Knowles and that he pointed it over towards his motherland before jumping out . . . and it very nearly made it there ! ;)

[BEagle]

He set it to fly an automatic ILS at Dublin.....or so he said!

[Ali Barber]

I was a student at Valley at the time and went on to fly Lightnings with Knowlsey. He left the autopilot in when he ejected and, if it had auto ILS selected, it may well have given the Irish a scare. As it was, the aircraft ran out of gas before it got to the Irish mainland. He barely got his feet wet as the SAR heli was descending alongside him with the winchman already out, waiting for him to hit the water - al least, that's how he described it!

[Derek Booth]

I was the NCO i/c Valley Photo Section at the time of this incident. Had to rush to the tower to get fly-by photos of the offending u/c. The film was processed in under 2 mins using print dev and wet prints provided for the techies to attempt to offer advice.

It is true that the SAR boys were on patch, just awaiting his splash down.

Sadly, I have no images to post as they were all official - for the B of I.

[Madbob]

According to Air Forces Monthly the Typhoon was an FGR4, ZJ 943 coded "DK" of XI sqn which was on loan to 17 (R) sqn for weapons trials at China Lake air weapons station. Damage is being assessed but the pilot did not eject and was unhurt.

Does anyone know the real extent of the damage and the cause, or have any pictures?

MB

[Madbob]

Well, it's been confirmed. The China Lake wheels-up landing caused Cat. 5 damage and ZJ943 has been officially struck off charge....

Only 5 months old and rumour has it the accident also wrote off the latest version of a Sniper pod:sad:. They are worth quite a few shekels as well.....


BS036/140 ZJ943Typhoon FGR4f/f 21/11/2007, d/d Coningsby 10/01/2008, w/o 23/04/2008




What a waste! Still no pictures around to show us just how bad the damage was.....

MB

[standrews]

Well if you've got a long distance camera, get to RAF Brize Norton, where the public road passes the end of the runway, point it towards JATEU, or whatever they call it these days and you'll get a picture of 2 x Typhoon wings on there STC's with heat damage from the aircraft concerned.

[Geezers of Nazareth]

There's a picture of it, albeit under covers, as it arrived at Coningsby.

(Not my photo, so credit where it's due)

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g95/usernamechanged/MN3Z0026.jpg

[GPMG]

Would it be possible to have two beacons that emmit a signal at each end of the runway? Both on the landing / take off path. Name them beacon #1 and #2 for example.

Beacon #1 nearer the runway at both ends. That way the aeroplane would always pass the beacons in the order of 1 > 2 on take off and 2 > 1 on landing. Beacons are positioned at a set distance from the runway and any aeroplane that is at a set height , speed range and passes the beacons in the 2 > 1 order will know that it is on a landing approach. The system then interogates the landing gear selector and if it is at 3 reds, and at a speed that would indicate the intention of landing it will automatically deploy the landing gear.

I don't know if this is in place already but surely this system would save £69 mill whenever someone makes an unfortunate mistake?

If this has already been thought of then I apologise for wasting time.

[Cows getting bigger]

Why make things so complicated? I believe Piper did something with their GA aircraft over 40 years ago. It was a system that compared airspeed against power setting and if you were slow with low power, it would drop the wheels.


Alternatively, put a chap in a caravan at the end of the runway.

[airborne_artist]

Or pay a couple of people to sit in a wagon to one side of the threshold with a Very pistol that they fire if they can't see the Dunlops dangling.

It may have been done before - I'm not sure :E

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Or maybe just employ pilots who can run a check list without error, wonder if the chap in question still has what it takes to make 3* :ok:

[CirrusF]

This has been a very interesting thread. I'd guess that not one in a hundred posters here has seen a Typhoon cockpit, and probably less than one in a thousand has any access to the facts of this incident. Nevertheless, various people have blamed the pilot or the design, or both, and have advocated stopping pay or even, somehow, pulled Prince William into the debate.

Give it a rest! I know it's rumour network, but this is beyond a joke. Accept it, you don't know what happened and for most of you, you never will.



You appear to be suggesting that this incident might not have been pilot error, and that you perhaps have some sort of insider knowledge to suggest that we should not pre-judge the pilot.

I have no idea about the inside of a Typhoon cockpit, but I assume that in a £69m(?) jet there are are at least the same level of systems to warn the pilot of a potential wheels up landing that exist in a 1950s vintage steam powered piston single? Even in the highly unlikely case that these systems failed, in most aircraft the pilot can hear the gear extending, then feel the change in position of the centre of drag both longitudinally (by change of yaw trim) and vertically (by change of pitch trim). So is the Typhoon is exceptional? I doubt it, but await to be proved wrong..

The airframe in happier days:
ZJ943 - Royal Air Force - Eurofighter EF-2000 Typhoon FGR.4 - Planespotters.net Just Aviation (http://www.planespotters.net/Aviation_Photos/photo.show?id=082903)

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Some aircraft even have a caption that lights if you're within a regime that it thinks looks like you're attempting to land. I find it hard to believe Typhoon doesn't have something similar, but until the reports are all released we won't know if it failed/was ignored/or what.

[GPMG]

So just out of interest for me. Is there something akin to my idea or should I send off the patent now? :)

I guess that like my 2 other great ideas, it will be put into production 2 years later without me having applied for the patent beforehand.

[Fox_4]

Everyone makes mistakes, even in a jet that is supposedly very clever! If it was even his fault?!
Why does everyone get so wound round the axle over something that they have probably only seen parked at an airshow or called a GR4 by a defence expert in The Sun.

Even as a fellow pilot I cant atually give 2 hoots if it cost x million quid and wrote off a pod! Did the guy survive - yes. Excellent. If we need more aircraft/pods for Ops Im sure we will buy them anyway. The money is spent already, stop bleating.

Dont give me the tax payer line as Im bored with that too. I dont exactly notice the decrease on my payslip so again - bzzzzzzzzzzzz. Flippant - yes.

Isnt there more important things going on in your life than starting rumours on something you clearly know <1% of actual facts about. Just a question.

Oh well. Other than that this topic is reeeeeeeeally interesting.


ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Finger Poking]

Fox 4 - If bored, don't post.

[Sospan]

Thats just what we need fox4, pilots that dont give a toss!

I hope you are proud of that post.

[BSweeper]

Having had something to do with the Typhoon cockpit design several years ago, the Phase of Flight moding is associated with deployment of the gear. So, when the gear is selected down, the main displays (which are very prominent compared to previous FJ cockpits) change radically to indicate a phase change to landing PoF.

Now, I am not saying that it is true in this case, but is possible that pilots will tend to associate gear down with main display change whereas the only true sign (ie safety critical) is the gear indicator.

By the way, the very clever comment (not mine) regarding cheese holes lining up is a reference to James Reason's "Swiss Cheese" model of human failure - try Googling it, its very interesting. If you read his book, you will find that human failure (for whatever reason - no pun) is inevitable no matter what. Chernoble is an obvious example.

By the way, Typhoon has a triplex redundant Weight on Wheels indication certified to a failure rate of less than 10-6.

[L J R]

...or take the pilot out and call it a UCAV....

[H Peacock]

Even as a fellow pilot I cant atually give 2 hoots if it cost x million quid and wrote off a pod! Did the guy survive - yes. Excellent. If we need more aircraft/pods for Ops Im sure we will buy them anyway. The money is spent already, stop bleating.

Fox 4, are you honestly saying that you don't give "2 hoots" if you are even partly responsible for the loss of an expensive aircraft/system? If so, then best you don't ever fly as aircraft Captain and sign an F700 again.

:=

[glad rag]

So according to Wiki a Typhoon costs £68.9 Million.

How much does it cost to train a Pilot to fly one?

[AdLib]

A lot less than it costs us to pay for all them MPs other houses. It's got care-free handling, innit.

Peraps that's care-free as in not giving 2 hoots.

[CirrusF]

Jimpie -

So just out of interest for me. Is there something akin to my idea or should I send off the patent now? http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/smile.gif

Your idea would work, but it is an unnecesary and expensive complication which requires a ground installation.

There are already simple autonomous features built into any aircraft (even knackered old 1950s spamcans, let alone a state-of the-art FJ) to remind forgetful pilots to lower the gear.

For reasons best studied in a human factors course, even the best trained pilots still occasionally manage to forget the gear, and then manage to remain oblivious to the warning signs. Adding another expensive system won't necessarily remedy the occasional wheels-up landing.

[AIDU]

Sorry, but hasn't this been done to the point of boredom in the previous 6 pages?

[Brian Abraham]

Little comment required.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-K4QHpVXtxI

[BEagle]

I am told there are two kinds of Pilot.


Those who have landed with the gear still up and those who haven't...........yet.
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/Internet/zxzxz.jpg

Sorry, that might have been true 60 years ago, but not today. It's one of those silly statements often trotted out by some (not you, airpolice, I hasten to add - as itwas something you 'were told') to sound wisely avuncular.

In about 10000 hrs, the only wheels-up approaches I made were deliberate:

In a F4 at the behest of the QFI in the back who was specifically tasked to check the RW caravan chap - who spotted it and fired his red.
In a VC10K whilst playing Bloggs for a fellow QFI, to show how easy it was to become lulled into complacency. I distracted him downwind with 'Bloggs questions' about circuit spacing and ground features, then didn't ask for 'Gear down, landing checks' at the normal point, just 'flap approach'. Of course the rest of the crew had been pre-briefed; normally the Air Engineer at least would have issued a firm warning and the Navigator would have queried the absence of the landing checklist request.


I'm not saying that I was in some way a superior pilot immune from inadvertent wheels-up approaches as I certainly wasn't! But training and aircraft are nowadays such that a casual human error should NOT lead to a gear up landing. Heck, even the Hunter had a warning to tell you if you had less than 1/3 throttle with the wheels up...... So to say that all pilots have either landed wheels up or are someday going is to insult the training excellence of the RAF - and is clearly bolleaux.

I only knew of a pilot who had actually made 2 wheels up approaches - both of which had been successfully thwarted by the switched on chap in the wheeled greenhouse at the end of the RW. He became a navigator.

I was told that it wasn't unknown in the old days ('back in the day' in yoof-speak) for a pilot who had managed to land gear up to be posted to fly the Beverley, Twin Pin or Chipmunk to avoid a second occurence....:=