buying a pa28 for hour building etc

[jxc]

Hi

I feel that as soon as i have got my ppl in the bag in a month or 2 i am going to go modular with BGS. I have my eye on a share of a piper pa28 161 that i know does not get used during the week anyway i feel that this would be good for hour building whilst also studying for atpl exams Ii do have alot of time on my hands now could i then use my own plane for the CPL and IR and just pay the instructor his rates in which case how much would an instructor rates be ?

or is this not a viable option ?

Cheers

[Mercenary Pilot]

You couldn't use the PA28 161 for the CPL because its not a "complex" type, it has fixed gear and a fixed pitch propeller and for the IR you need a complex twin with an IFR fit so it can fly in the airways.

In theory, it could be good for hour building and if you paid an instructor (price would depend on the individual because many instructors are self employed), he could teach you certain aspects of the CPL such as Nav, PFL's and basic instrument skills. However if the aircraft is being used for flight instruction it may need different insurance cover and Certificate of Airworthiness category.

I think you should do some research on aircraft ownership before diving straight in as it can be extremely costly. Also, before spending vast amounts of money on flight training and aircraft, it would be a good idea to understand what qualifications you actually need to hold in order to have a frozen ATPL and be suitably licensed for a position in commercial aviation.

:ok:

[Mikehotel152]

In theory, if you have the spare capital and the necessary energy to find and buy - and subsequently successfully sell - a share in an aircraft for hour-building, it would be a cost-effective option IMHO.

But I think Mercenary Pilot is correct about the CPL/IR for all the reasons he states.

[Deano777]

Mercenary Pilot is only ½ right about the CPL, only 5hrs has to be completed in a complex type, excluding the skill test, so in theory you can use it for 20hrs of your CPL (if you do the CPL before IR).

Also as far as the C of A is concerned, I am sure (please quote me if I'm wrong) that an aircraft being issued a new C of A now has an EASA C of A instead of a Private or Public C of A, this meaning that you can undertake flight training on your own aircraft by a suitably qualified instructor (not the case had it had a private C of A)

jxc be careful buying one in the view to selling it on, this could prove difficult with the impending economic downturn (unless you can afford to keep it of course)

D777

[jxc]

working on the fact £5000 for share £65 per month £60 per hour wet even after finishing everything and using 'my' plane as much as possible then sell share cheap I should still be in pocket especially if i take a few extra hours to pass exams

[coodem]

Deano, you are correct, It needs a public CoA. One of the guys in our group used the aircraft for his CPL, then did the last 5 hours on a complex. He also did his FI on the aircraft. Just needed to hire a 150 aero for the spins, as the PA28 is not certified.

There is a lot that can go wrong with an aircraft, some things take ages to repair due to parts. The PA28 is popular and should not be too much of a problem sourcing parts

Make sure there is a sufficient kitty to cover any unexpected expenses, also make sure there is money for the engine replacement/overhaul.

Anuals can be costly, often run into the £1000's. Then there are 50/100 hour checks. It never stops

Just read your post above, £60 an hour will leave you with a healthy fund, assuming it's been done from the begining.

I have a non equity share of a PA28, and pay £50 per month and £65 per hour wet, and free home base landings. If anything goes wrong, its not my problem

[smith]

I don't think you can do any of the training for CPL training as, as with most things CAA , it has to be completed on an approved course at an approved school. The school has to be a JAA school which has been vetted and gained approvals for providing CPL/IR training etc, so using an ad hoc instructor in your own aircraft for further licences/ratings training is a non-starter I'm afraid.

[jxc]

But i have noticed that at clubs they give a price for using your own aircraft instructor rates only so surely it can be done for cpl as well if using an approved school cpl/ir

[smith]

When I was at CPL school, the school were introducing an IR course and the staff were jumping through hoops to gain approval for the course. The CAA had to visit and the aircraft, manuals, syllabus, maintenance, all documentation etc had to be tickety boo before approval was given. I assuned this was the same for CPL.

ATPL is similar too, you can't just buy used manuals off ebay, read them and sit the exams, you must enroll in an approved course, carry out the study then be signed off, then sit the exams.

Maybe I am wrong but I thought the aircraft itself had to be approved by the CAA for carrying out training.

[potkettleblack]

Getting a share is a good idea in principal to save some coin. Only thing is I would recommend getting into a no capital group. I once looked into buying a full share in an aircraft. The thing that turned me off was the lack of a liquid market to sell it on at a later date. If you go onto the various websites in the UK that deal with 2nd hand aircraft you will see the same aircraft there since time began.

Another lower cost option might be to buy a PFA type aircraft and clock up your hours in that and then head off to a school to do the multi, CPL and IR.

The private flying forum has a wealth of information on this type of thing if you do a search. There are many pitfalls involved in buying a share and potentially ending up with unforeseen costs that could scupper your dream of being a commercial pilot.

[helimutt]

I bought a share in a Warrior for hour building after completing my ppl. I was free weekdays and it had a lot of shareholders who didnt even fly. More of a status thing for them I think. Out of 14 shareholders, only about 5 of us flew it IIRC. I used it weekdays as I wasn't working and it was nearly always available, and at the time (a while back now) it worked out at £1750 a share, £50 month and £45/hr. Obviously it'll all have gone up since then but the treasurer always had sufficient funds to sort out small probs. It was a great little a/c and cheap. I would have built many hours on it if it wasn't for the fact the treasurers wife and I became friends:O, she left him and he didn't like it. :ok: So I sold up and went back to flying rotary.

There are many good points and bad points. If the a/c you buy into is well looked after and available, then i'd say do it for the hours you need. Even if you sell the share at a loss at the end, it's only a problem if the group won't let you sell for cheaper than you bought in at. My group bought me out to get me out quickly I think.
;)

Good luck.

[A and C]

A lot of good stuff above but a few errors, if the aircraft is maintaned to Public Transport standards then it can be used for instruction.

The old system of public & private C of A is no longer within EASA with all aircraft being maintaned to the same maintenance schedule, however if the 50 hour check is carried out by the owner the aircraft can't be used for instruction untill the next check carried out by a licenced/approved engineer.

If the aircraft has an engine that is working past the TBO+20% it cant be used for instruction.

Insurance is the usual issue that the British use to stop any new idea that reprisents any sort of change, in this case it is unlikely to be an issue as almost all policys issued in the UK cover the owner when taking instruction (just as most cover any licenced engineer for ground running, taxing and flight testing if he has a PPL)

Most approved training company's will drag out all sorts of "rules & regulations" to stop you using your own aircraft but the real reason for this is that the price they charge is an all in one and using your aircraft will reduce the (already thin) proffit margin.

The down sides to ownership are well made in posts above, I did my hour building by buying a share in an aircraft and it worked well but I found the ownwership a little variable....................... As a licenced engineer I found that I seemed to own 100% when the aircraft was U/S but only 20% when the aircraft was servicable!

Please search the website for some of my other posts on this subject as these may be of interest.